Expelled student armed with assault rifle slaughters 17 at Florida high school

[Commander Wallace]

Once again, gunfire at a High School kills a number of kids / students, in this case, 17. 16 more were reported injured. The shooter In this case was a 19 year old former student expelled for disciplinary reasons.

I have no words except where does this end ?


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/student-opens-fire-fla-high-school-kills-17-article-1.3820936

[Catfish]

Very sad. I do not know "where this will stop", but it is obviously happening more and more often.
They say "It is the person that kills, not the weapon." Hm, sure. But making it more difficult to get those guns could be a start?

(OT i read that inspite of Trump whos is pro-gun and NRA, there are less people buying weapons now.. which was explained because Trump is less likely to take guns away from them, so there is less need for defense. An american thing.)
How do you "test" people whether they are prone to do such things, without taking away the freedom of, and for all?

From my german point of view the case is clear, but it is seen entirely different over there.

[Jimbuna]

According to the BBC this is the eighteenth school shooting in the USA this year and the eighth to include death or serious injury to children.

[Skybird]

Tja. From this comes that.

But to regain our breaths again, lets discuss callibre, shooting distance and the all-important question whether or not the assault rifle used indeed was an assault rifle or just a semi-automatic rifle. And was it a rifle at all? Its important, you now.

[Catfish]

sorry for being OT once more:
I remember my first times being in England, that policemen (Bobbies? Coppers?) did not wear arms. This has changed, already before the 'new' terrorism started.
But somehow it was not considered to be necessary back then. The police had a certain 'elevated'(?) status, and people probably had more respect, towards them :hmmm:

[Skybird]

You know how reputation of police officers in Germany has collapsed in recent years. And politicians betray them, while doing their best to maximise the number of new challenges and threats to them. These days even rescue medics and firefighters get attacked, threatened, spit at by antisocial mobs - often mobs we have happily imported in the past. You read the newspapers over here, you know what I mean. Its almost daily news. Andn that does not even mention the even greater numbers of youtube posters blocking rescue works for shooting their own youtube video.

Prolet mobs behave like prolet mobs, no real surprise there. The more you have of the one, the more you get of the other. Import prolet mobs, or breed them in your own school system and by the degeneration of social standards, and you get what you asked for.

[Jimbuna]

What is 'Prolet' Sky?

[Commander Wallace]

Looking at the reply's here, Catfish makes some good points. Maybe it's time to see how Germany, the U.K and others deal with things to keep their kids safe. It has been reported by the news media that along with fire drills, students now have armed intruder drills as well. It's a sad statement that along with learning algebra and chemistry, students must now learn how to survive in the face of crazed individuals who are armed and invading their school.

My question is why were the entry ways not secure ? There should be one or perhaps two entry points equipped with metal detectors and perhaps armed operators. Doors could also be equipped with remote locking mechanisms and have LEO personnel on speed dial. There is no way an armed individual with known disciplinary problems should have been able to gain access to that school.

In light of what Jim had said about the number of shootings and their prevalence, it's criminal negligence not to have safe guards like these and more in place to protect our kids. Especially considering how often this is happening now.

[Jimbuna]

Looking at the reply's here, Catfish makes some good points. Maybe it's time to see how Germany, the U.K and others deal with things to keep their kids safe.

The UK has some of the world's strictest gun-ownership laws and it is now rare for civilians to own private firearms.
The turning point for the country came in 1996, when 43-year-old Thomas Hamilton used legally owned handguns to kill 16 children, all ages 5 and 6, as well as a teacher, before taking his own life.
The massacre in Dunblane, Scotland, prompted widespread outrage and a surge in public support to ban handguns.

[Mr Quatro]

Guns will get the blame here instead of mental illness :yep:

especially guns that don't need be reloaded after every shot ... just a hand gun with extra clips would've had the same causalities, but in this case it was an assault style rifle.

If he had of run down a crowd of people with a truck or a car they wouldn't outlaw trucks and cars.

It's mental illness and I hate to blame the movies and video games, but where else do these young people get their evil desires to kill, murder and maim the people they hate? :o

[Commander Wallace]

The UK has some of the world's strictest gun-ownership laws and it is now rare for civilians to own private firearms.
The turning point for the country came in 1996, when 43-year-old Thomas Hamilton used legally owned handguns to kill 16 children, all ages 5 and 6, as well as a teacher, before taking his own life.
The massacre in Dunblane, Scotland, prompted widespread outrage and a surge in public support to ban handguns.


I had not heard of this and reading about the Dunblane incident just made me sick. Too bad the individual who committed these acts didn't just take his own life and end it there. That's as bad as the shooting at the Sandy Hook elementary school where the victims were as young as 5. I have been a proponent of armed citizenry. The individuals i know who are armed are sensible, law abiding individuals. It's clear however that we need to address the situation and do things differently.

One thing is clear. School's need to be more secure where visits are by appointment only and then only with a proper escort. Expanding on what Mr. Quatro had said, why are assault weapons needed and sold in the marketplace anyhow ? I have long believed violent video games influence these shootings as well. Well balanced individuals are able to differentiate between reality and video games but i believe that violent video games are a strong influence on mentally handicapped people.

If people need to express their aggressive nature or tendencies, they can pick up a copy of Silent Hunter, Cold water and the like and just have at it. Our members are pretty well balanced and very intelligent and our simulations haven't made us crazy or homicidal .

[Mr Quatro]

Nikolas Cruz was the 19 year old shooter: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/fbi-warned-cruz-professional-school-shooter-plans-months-article-1.3822163


FBI agents were warned about Nikolas Cruz’s plans to become a “professional school shooter” months ago, according to a YouTube vlogger who noticed a sick comment on one of his videos.

Ben Bennight, a bail bondsman in Mississippi who goes by the name Ben the Bondsman, said that he received a terrifying comment from a user called Nikolas Cruz under a video in September.

“This comment said ‘I’m going to be a professional school shooter” and I knew that I couldn’t just ignore that,” he said.

Bennight said that he flagged the comment to YouTube and also sent a screenshot to the FBI, who visited him briefly in September and asked him whether he knew the poster.

Mental illness :yep:

[Dowly]

It's mental illness and I hate to blame the movies and video games, but where else do these young people get their evil desires to kill, murder and maim the people they hate? :oThere's one huge flaw in blaming video games and movies: You don't see these types of killings take place regularly elsewhere in the world.

[Catfish]

@Jim 'Prolet' (from proletarian) is a short derogative term for a worker, or a person considered to be poor, or behaving inappropriate. In modern times, it is used to establish a border between you and those you think of as inferior :03:

@Sky: i agree that common sense and behaviour has suffered, however i blame the bullies and good german right wing mobs, with immigrants adjusting. Not here in Hannover though.

@Mr Quatro: I strongly disagree. This is no case of mental illness, but one of fury, a quick temper and egoism. All those traits can well be found in entrepreneurs and big business bosses. Common sense and reason is not what gets you far. Neither here, nor in the US.

I guess i p'd of enough people right now, and rest my case.

[Commander Wallace]

@Jim 'Prolet' (from proletarian) is a short derogative term for a worker, or a person considered to be poor, or behaving inappropriate. In modern times, it is used to establish a border between you and those you think of as inferior :03:

@Sky: i agree that common sense and behaviour has suffered, however i blame the bullies and good german right wing mobs, with immigrants adjusting. Not here in Hannover though.

@Mr Quatro: I strongly disagree. This is no case of mental illness, but one of fury, a quick temper and egoism. All those traits can well be found in entrepreneurs and big business bosses. Common sense and reason is not what gets you far. Neither here, nor in the US.

I guess i p'd of enough people right now, and rest my case.


You hardly upset anyone Catfish. The thread was established to encourage an intelligent and lucid discussion such as the one you are having with us right now.

[Catfish]

^ Why, thank you :oops::)

One more thing to consider. I was more or less an even or level-headed guy back then when i was young. But i remember to have had unforgiving furious moments due to real or imagined perceived degradations. If i had had access to weapons like a gun at that time or in the heat of the moment, i really do not know what would have happened.

When i served in the military, we had our own ways to deal with impertinent superiors. Thank god weapons were not involved.

[Jimbuna]

@Jim 'Prolet' (from proletarian) is a short derogative term for a worker, or a person considered to be poor, or behaving inappropriate. In modern times, it is used to establish a border between you and those you think of as inferior :03:



Ah, okay, cheers.

You hardly upset anyone Catfish. The thread was established to encourage an intelligent and lucid discussion such as the one you are having with us right now.

Agreed :yep:

[Mr Quatro]

^ Why, thank you :oops::)
When i served in the military, we had our own ways to deal with impertinent superiors. Thank god weapons were not involved.

Did it have anything to do with what you wipe your butt with :har:

[Skybird]

What is 'Prolet' Sky?
A proletarian is a proletarian: usually a member of the worker-class, socially low, often not too well-edcuated, but the term is neutral nad simply means this without any offence meant. See, you can lack education, and still have a clever mind. Communist propaganda praises the proletarians (not the "prolets").

But in German: a "Prolet" is a derogatory term indeed indicating not only low class, but also a scumbag by character, a stupid blokehead no matter how high his edcuation is, a brutal egoist, an anti-social narcissist. Its a very negative characterization to label somebody as a "Prolet". Its in no way meant friendly and nice, or even just "neutral".

"Prolet" and "Proletariar" are and mean two different things.

[Jimbuna]

^ Danke

[Skybird]

Looking at the reply's here, Catfish makes some good points. Maybe it's time to see how Germany, the U.K and others deal with things to keep their kids safe. It has been reported by the news media that along with fire drills, students now have armed intruder drills as well. It's a sad statement that along with learning algebra and chemistry, students must now learn how to survive in the face of crazed individuals who are armed and invading their school.

My question is why were the entry ways not secure ? There should be one or perhaps two entry points equipped with metal detectors and perhaps armed operators. Doors could also be equipped with remote locking mechanisms and have LEO personnel on speed dial. There is no way an armed individual with known disciplinary problems should have been able to gain access to that school.

In light of what Jim had said about the number of shootings and their prevalence, it's criminal negligence not to have safe guards like these and more in place to protect our kids. Especially considering how often this is happening now.
I think it is also a cultural and mentality thing, a different attitude towards violence and a certain fetishism for firearms in general. Especially Germans and Americans are probably the two most extreme poles on this. The truth I think must be found somewhere between the two.

And no, I do not think I represent the German mainstream attitude towards fiorearms, for German standards my stand on firearms and their private possession already counts far too lenient. For American standards I probably already count as a dictator in the eyes of the NRA at least. :D

[Armistead]

Gun ownership has gone down about 20% in America since 1950. We've enacted numerous federal and state laws regarding guns in the last 20 years, yet shootings and mass shootings have greatly increased, almost have become the norm. Less guns, more laws, yet shootings continue to rise. We didn't have cops or metal detectors in schools in my generation, almost every male owned a gun or had access to one in HS. In fact, doubt if was legal, but during hunting season you'd see gun racks full in trucks in the school parking lot, often we went hunting with coaches and teachers. We were all bullied in some way or stage that we had to learn to cope with. We clearly have a culture societal shift.

[August]

Expanding on what Mr. Quatro had said, why are assault weapons needed and sold in the marketplace anyhow?

Well first of all it's the Bill of "Rights", not the Bill of "Needs" so what one person thinks we need is immaterial but the 2nd Amendment does mention "well regulated" which in 18th century parlance meant "proficient".

So let me ask you can you think of a better militia weapon than an AR-15? Is there another weapon that shares the same ammo, aiming system, cleaning kits, spare parts and accessories? Is there another weapon that would be better for familiarizing civilians with our countries basic battle rifle short of actually issuing them a real one like the Swiss?

[vienna]

The Packard car company used to have an advert tagline that touted their products: "Ask the man who owns one". I'm just going to leave these links about the persons who actually "owned" yesterday's tragedy:


‘A gun killed 17 of my classmates — STFU’: Parkland student crushes Tomi Lahren’s latest pro-gun rant --

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/gun-killed-17-classmates-stfu-parkland-student-crushes-tomi-lahrens-latest-pro-gun-rant/


Florida school shooting survivors slam Tomi Lahren for anti-gun control tweet --

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/florida-school-shooting-survivors-slam-tomi-lahren-for-anti-gun-control-tweet/article/2649203











<O>

[Platapus]

We should be focusing our efforts on finding out why some people feel that killing other people (strangers) is a viable solution to what they perceive to be a problem.

We don't have a gun problem in the US; we have a people choosing to kill people problem in the US. The firearms are an enabler. One does not solve a problem by mitigating an enabler

But, solving people problems is a lot harder than just passing even more gun laws and patting ourselves on the head for "doing something"

[August]

But, solving people problems is a lot harder than just passing even more gun laws and patting ourselves on the head for "doing something"

I thought this article laid out the dilemma quite clearly:

What can we do? What should we do?

The answers are not easy, and they inevitably involve a trade-off: accepting the unacceptable, or restricting our freedoms. The three big ones are freedom of the press (publicity gives oxygen to these kinds of acts, so restricting coverage will reduce copycats); the right to bear arms (guns don't cause human evil, but of course they make it easier to carry out); and due process (targeting potential mass shooters, or mentally ill people in general, is possible, but requires us to curtail Americans' civil rights before they have actually committed a crime).

It is by no means clear that any of these solutions would be more effective than the others, and each of them involves punishing a very large number of people in order to stop the evil-doings of a very small number of people.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-mclaughlin-parkland-shooting-20180215-story.html

[mapuc]

Every time I hear or read about these things in America I ask myself

When, when will the ordinary American say enough ?

Secondly I know USA have this 2nd amendment, I don't know it in detail.

Would it be seen as altering it, if the government or the President put some restriction into it.

Such as
Every American has the right the bear arms but only up to a certain caliber
and/or
Each American has the right to bear arm but only one per citizens

I'm only a foreigner who's wondering.

It is a domestic problems and it is the Americans and their politicians who have to solve this, not the entire world.

Markus

[Buddahaid]

It's along the lines of stopping drug abuse and how effective has that been over the last several decades. You can pour millions into it and it still happens.

[Mr Quatro]

Blame the gun or blame the games ... I blame the nuts :o

http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles/1/5/5/1/6/6/8/135944559829.jpg/EG11/resize/300x-1/quality/80/format/jpg

The marketing of imitation adult products to children in the hope they will blossom into customers of the genuine article is widespread. The video game presents further opportunities for manufacturers to target young people. Toyota and Nissan work with racing game developers to show off their vehicles as pristinely desirable. Nike and Adidas position their logo on virtual boots. Gibson licenses plastic versions of its guitars in the hope players will progress from the coloured buttons of the peripheral to the nickel-wound strings of a Les Paul.

And Barrett, creator of the M82, a shoulder-fired, .50-caliber semi-automatic sniper rifle, hopes that the appearance of its weapon in a video game will, in time, turn young players into gun owners.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-01-shooters-how-video-games-fund-arms-manufacturers

[vienna]

Not just statistics...


The Names of the Florida School Shooting Victims --

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/us/florida-school-victims.html


...and those left behind..


'President Trump, please do something!' - Grieving mother demands answers after daughter is killed in Florida school shooting --

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/politics/mom-pleads-with-trump-after-daughter-slain-in-school-shooting-newsroom-brooke-baldwin-cnntv/index.html












<O>

[Sean C]

Every time I hear or read about these things in America I ask myself

When, when will the ordinary American say enough ?

We've all had enough of it. We just disagree on the solution.

Secondly I know USA have this 2nd amendment, I don't know it in detail.

The Second Amendment states (in modern, plain English) that:

"Because it is necessary for ordinary people to form a well trained fighting force in order to protect their freedom, no law can be made which infringes on the people's right to keep and use guns."

Would it be seen as altering it, if the government or the President put some restriction into it.

Such as
Every American has the right the bear arms but only up to a certain caliber
and/or
Each American has the right to bear arm but only one per citizens

I'm only a foreigner who's wondering.

The short answer is: "Yes."

Technically, the only way to restrict American gun ownership is to make another amendment to the Constitution. (And that is very difficult.) It could even be argued that some laws which already exist are unconstitutional. The 2nd Amendment simply says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms". It doesn't say what kind or how many or what magazine capacity or any of that. It simply says that the people have a right to keep and use guns ... full stop.

Now, having said that ... I think the overwhelming majority of Americans would object to there being no restrictions whatsoever on gun ownership. I know many people who own and shoot guns, and not one of them minds the background checks. I carry a gun all the time and am very pro-gun ... but even I think that guns should be kept out of the hands of mentally unstable people and criminals. I mean, you'd have to be crazy not to think that.

But, there is a very fine line between protecting the public and taking away individual rights. And it's very difficult to find a way to implement such measures while keeping everyone happy and respecting the foundation of this country: personal liberty. However, we obviously need to do something. I have my own ideas, but that's another subject.

It is a domestic problems and it is the Americans and their politicians who have to solve this, not the entire world.

Indeed!

[Jimbuna]

So what will become of the individual responsible for these murders?

My understanding is that Florida still has the death penalty but it is under review.

Capital punishment was reinstated post-Furman in 1972. [5] [14] On Jan. 12, 2015, the US Supreme Court ruled that Florida’s method of sentencing people to death, which allowed judges, rather than juries, to impose a death sentence, violated the 6th Amendment. Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi said that due to the ruling, "the state will need to make changes to its death-sentencing statutes," and that "existing death sentences will need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis." [20]

https://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=001172

[Jimbuna]

The teenager accused of killing 17 people at a Florida high school on Wednesday has confessed to the shooting, police say.

Nikolas Cruz, 19, said he arrived on campus and began shooting students before abandoning his weapon and escaping, according to a court document.

He has appeared in court charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder.

The FBI has admitted it received a tip-off about him last year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43081361

This should move the process on a little more quickly I presume.

[August]

Another interesting article, this one on "see something, say something"

Once again, it is the dangerous lie of “See something, say something.”Everybody says it. Big Brother. Big Sister. Democrat. Republican. It’s the bipartisan mantra that unites them all.


“See something, say something.”


It is a false government promise that has proved their failure again and again and again. At this point, it is nothing more than a hypnotizing, insulting lie.


It is a way for politicians in power — from anywhere on the partisan spectrum — to shift blame off of themselves and onto the innocent citizen.
Not to mention the arrogance of “See something, say something.”
See, all you have to do is see something, tell Big Brother, Big Sister — tell Daddy Government — and Big Brother will protect you.


That’s all a lie.


The directive should be: “See something, say something. And always be packing.”


On a train, on a plane, at a game, or at school. See something, say something. The arrogance of it is that all these people — the feds, local governments, school officials — they are all claiming that if you just let them know that somebody in seat 12A is sweating, looks nervous, they will take care of it and protect you.


SIDENOTE: If that somebody in 12A is wearing a turban or speaking Arabic, you risk being ostracized for “seeing” anything, let alone “saying” something.


The most galling arrogance is the false security of these officials lying and promising that they are capable of getting to the bottom of whatever you have seen and said something about. Of course they can’t. Or don’t.
In this latest case, the FBI was reportedly informed that some nut job named “Nikolas Cruz” announced “Im gonna be a professional school shooter” a few months back.

Funny thing, a kid named “Nikolas Cruz” was also kicked out of Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, and was considered such a threat that the kid was specifically banned from carrying a backpack on school grounds.

Something was seen. Something was said. Yet nothing was done.
The FBI apparently followed up but determined it was a dead end.
Understandably, the feds and TSA and local police and school officials have day jobs. They cannot run down every lead.

So, my question is, why make the stupid promise behind “See something, say something.”

Meanwhile, Nikolas Cruz was all but voted Most Likely to Shoot up the School. He was kicked out. He was listed as a security threat.
He made little secret of his twisted mind on social media and in conversations with other students.


Everybody saw something. Nobody did anything.


Now, seventeen innocent people are dead.


And politicians are already grand-standing, talking about how we need to “do something.”



Oh, and mocking people for praying.


And, as always, telling people: “See something, say something.” Because it’s not their fault. It’s yours.


https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/15/lie-see-something-say-something/

[Platapus]

Would it be seen as altering it, if the government or the President put some restriction into it.

Such as
Every American has the right the bear arms but only up to a certain caliber
and/or
Each American has the right to bear arm but only one per citizens


Markus
There is precedence for this. There are limits to the types of firearms that people can own. Machine guns and most types of artillery are all regulated by the government. So what you wrote is possible and if done properly might get past the SCotUS.

But

Who decides what is an acceptable caliber .22LR can be quite deadly. Is a .22lr more or less dangerous than a .32acp? I would opine that the .22lr is more dangerous. So I don't think that limiting the caliber would do anything.

I am not sure that restricting ownership to one firearm would accomplish much. If a bad guy wants to kill people, only having one firearm won't be that much of a hindrance.

The problem with some of these shooters is the same problem we have with terrorists. Our law enforcement structure is designed around the presumption that a criminal wants to get away with his or her crime. This places a lot of restrictions on the criminal and allows us to implement protective schema.

But, like a terrorist, what do we do to protect ourselves from a shooter who either does not care if they survive or deliberately wants not to survive the crime?

The answer may be that we really can't protect ourselves against someone who wants to kill us and who does not want to survive the encounter.

Which gets back to my premise of trying to understand why someone would choose to kill strangers before killing themselves. We have to understand this abhorrent mindset if we are going to defend it.

We, as a nation and a culture, have to come to a compromise between privacy and safety. Currently, our medical history is protected and kept private. There may be indicators in people's medical history that would tip off the authorities that a person may be at risk.

Concerning mental health records, how can we balance privacy with safety? This is not an easy question nor one that should be solved by an extreme measure. The risk of abuse is considerable.

One thing we can't have is an attitude of "everything necessary to protect the public" as that can easily lead to a police state.

After the fact, it is always easy to see the "red flags" to the point where some complain, "why didn't someone do something, it was clear!". Well absent the advantage of hindsight, finding these red flags is not always easy.

The problem is that in the US, we have about 50,000,000 gun owners who every single day of the year do not commit firearms related crimes. But we do have a hundred or so gun owners who do end up committing firearm related crimes.

How do we find the latter without infringing on the freedoms of the former?

The problem with "red flags" is that they are only diagnostic after the fact.

What we need are diagnostic indicators that we can use before the fact. Much easier written then done

It is easy when the criminal cooperates by posting "Next year I am going to kill everyone at my school". That's considerate of the criminal. But what about criminals that are not so considerate?

What indicators can we have that can serve as a tip that this one person out of 50,000,000 needs to be looked at?

It can't be a single indicator but would have to be a combination of indicators. Otherwise we will be wasting our time investigating people who won't commit firearm crimes and not get to those few that will.

The solution may be using AI, to continually sift through the various data sources and prioritize. This may be a cure much worse than the disease. I don't think there will be too many people eager to have such a schema. Especially at the federal level.

I wish I knew what the solution is. I also wish that people would stop saying that we are doing nothing. We are doing stuff. An argument may be made that we are not doing enough or what we are doing is wrong. Any of those may be true. But, at the state level, things are changing. At the federal level, the change is much slower... as it should be.

There is no single reason why people choose to kill other people. There is no single solution to this problem. Problems are always easy to solve if the solution is to get rid of people's rights and limit their freedom. I hope we never get to that mindset in the US.

In my opinion, we are focusing on the wrong issues. I wish I knew what the solutions (plural) would be. If I had the answer, I would not be wasting my time posting on a video game website, that's for sure :D

[Mr Quatro]

It would be difficult to plead insanity in this case.

The shooters attorney (assigned to him by the State of Florida) said in court that the shooter was fully aware of what he had done.

The act itself was premeditated ... as soon as he was caught, after leaving the campus and visiting a nearby Walmart and Subway,
the shooter admitted to the police that he indeed had been the shooter.

The shooter even wore a gas mask and set off the fire alarm to get more people out of their classrooms to shoot them.

He will get the death penalty and it will take forever to serve justice and of course this act will breed even more shooters to imitate this one. :yep:

[mapuc]

Thank you Nathaniel B. and Platapus for taking your time to answer my question about the 2nd Amendment.

The 2nd Amendment and the other Amendment is a given right to the American people in good and bad.

I hope you one day will find a solution to this problem and thereby increase or have removed the cause for these masskillings.

Markus

[August]

Who decides what is an acceptable caliber .22LR can be quite deadly. Is a .22lr more or less dangerous than a .32acp? I would opine that the .22lr is more dangerous. So I don't think that limiting the caliber would do anything.

I agree. Not to mention that an AR-15's .223 round being a lot smaller than most rifle rounds could automatically ban nearly all rifles.

There is another thing to consider. An AR-15 just may not the most deadly weapon a killer could use in these situations. It's designed for engaging enemy soldiers at ranges that far exceed what's necessary to shoot up a school. Larger caliber weapons, shotguns, multiple handguns, all could (and have see the VT massacre) produce far more death and carnage.

If somehow the gun phobics manage to ban the millions of AR-15s already in civilian hands and by some miracle it actually works to make mass killers choose another weapon it could easily have the effect of increasing rather than decreasing the number of victims in these already terrible events.

Remember the largest school massacre in American history was not even committed with a gun.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/1927-bombing-remains-americas-deadliest-school-massacre-180963355/

[Rockstar]

Reminds me of a time sitting around waiting for the next exercise. All us young fellas were arguing what the best weapon in the world was. Arguments were made over caliber, rifling, powder, ballistics, scopes you name it. It was loud and going absolutely no where until the ol' gunny piped up. He said simply the best weapon in the world is the one you can use most effectively to kill your enemy. Whether it be a rifle, baseball bat, knife or thumb.

We can argue 'til the cows come about what firearms to ban. IMO you can ban them all and it still wont solve the problem. It starts at home, in neighborhoods, education, to be able to tell someone they are wrong for thinking certain ways, to be able to drive a foot up their arse if need be and not be worried about offending them or a lawsuit.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

The only thing that will happen is the talking heads will talk about we should do this or we should do that, the politicians will do the same, the lobbyist will lobby for what they think is best and in the end either nothing will get done or something will be done and considered right when it would be the worst thing to do because that's what governments do.

[STEED]

Pressure is mounting on the FBI over the agency's failure to act on a tip that Florida school shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz might carry out an attack.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43094840

Some one is going to pay for this blunder.

[August]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43094840

Some one is going to pay for this blunder.

Let's hope so. 30 police reports about violent outbursts over the past few years, public threats to shoot up schools, people concerned enough to contact the FBI. How this nut slipped under the radar I don't understand.

[STEED]

Let's hope so. 30 police reports about violent outbursts over the past few years, public threats to shoot up schools, people concerned enough to contact the FBI. How this nut slipped under the radar I don't understand.

Same here, and that what makes it even worst this scumbag was bought to their attention and FBI just ignored it! :nope:

[Rockstar]

And they spent how many millions of dollars and man hours tracking down 13 Russian internet trolls? There is something really backasswards about that.

[August]

And they spent how many millions of dollars and man hours tracking down 13 Russian internet trolls? There is something really backasswards about that.

Maybe if the FBI leadership spent less time trying to overturn elections and more time doing their job we would have less of these terrible incidents.

[Mr Quatro]

The only thing that will happen is the talking heads will talk about we should do this or we should do that, the politicians will do the same, the lobbyist will lobby for what they think is best and in the end either nothing will get done or something will be done and considered right when it would be the worst thing to do because that's what governments do.

This is a true statement in the past ... these shootings could wind up influencing the next election more so than the Russians did in 2016.

Promises of more gun control could sink a politician on the other hand a pro gun stance could ruin that politicians chance.

One things for sure those students are going to need some answers when school starts up again.

https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28166641_1199300530202794_1422918220427613730_n.jp g?oh=f6fe4f6e4635453440518dcb2489193f&oe=5B185A75

This is Shamrock High School in Shamrock, Texas.

[Commander Wallace]

Well first of all it's the Bill of "Rights", not the Bill of "Needs" so what one person thinks we need is immaterial but the 2nd Amendment does mention "well regulated" which in 18th century parlance meant "proficient".

So let me ask you can you think of a better militia weapon than an AR-15? Is there another weapon that shares the same ammo, aiming system, cleaning kits, spare parts and accessories? Is there another weapon that would be better for familiarizing civilians with our countries basic battle rifle short of actually issuing them a real one like the Swiss?

Lots of great posts and analysis. I completely agree with you August on the right to bear arms / weapons and the reasons why. Armistead had mentioned full gun racks in the trucks of students and I remember the identical situation at at my somewhat rural High School as well. I further remember a few High School teachers and one time the principal outside in the parking lot discussing rifles, calibers and grain weight of the bullets in bringing down game. Not that it matters but we were High School football players and students, some of whom hunted and not connected with any sort of militia. There was never an incident then with weapons of any kind as there was a high degree of trust and respect between us students and the teachers and administration of the school. Our parents in those times taught us respect for people and life and insisted we act in accordance with those tenets. That's as it should be. You couldn't bring hunting weapons to school today as the times are way different.

Shootings such as been seen recently would have been completely unthinkable then.

Platapus also hit the nail on the head with his analysis. Platapus had stated the mind set of those who want to kill and not necessarily surviving the encounter. It's really not possible to be 100 % safe all the time. It would seem to make sense that an armed person and citizen makes a poor target. Most law enforcement and prosecutors point to illegal recreational drugs as fueling the increase in crime. People steal and rob to get money to buy drugs. This doesn't seem to be the case in this instance. This sick individual just wanted to kill people and boasted to that effect in social media.

As a number of forum members have already said, the answers in the coming weeks and months won't come easy. However, one possible solution is relatively easy to implement and that is a multiple layered security approach at the schools. Security checkpoints, metal detectors and staff trained to use them. Bullet proof glass in a receiving atrium for all visitors as well. Any visitors would have to be cleared in advance of the visiting day and go through the same screening process as the students in addition to submitting a reason for the visit and be approved and escorted. If a visitor / intruder poses a threat, then that threat could be isolated by means of remote locking doors, contained and if necessary, neutralized within the bulletproof atrium.

None of these provisions will keep the average person on the street safe and aren't meant to but would go a long way toward keeping our children in school safe from armed threats. These may well seem like extreme measures and I certainly would have thought so in High School when I attended. Then again, I never would have thought the carnage we have seen lately would have been possible either.

We owe our kids and their parents this much that they should be able to be safe while learning and protect the lives of their kids. It's clear that actions need to be taken in light of the times to insure our kids safety. While we may differ on what changes need to be implemented I think we can all agree increased security at our schools is a good idea. These changes may be cumbersome at first to enact but I think in the end, well worth it.

I think it is also a cultural and mentality thing, a different attitude towards violence and a certain fetishism for firearms in general. Especially Germans and Americans are probably the two most extreme poles on this. The truth I think must be found somewhere between the two.

And no, I do not think I represent the German mainstream attitude towards fiorearms, for German standards my stand on firearms and their private possession already counts far too lenient. For American standards I probably already count as a dictator in the eyes of the NRA at least. :D

You may well be right Sky however German history and that of the creation of the U.S differ. Our fore fathers wanted it's future citizens to be able to protect themselves from tyranny which some governments like to engage in. It's also true that outside casual observers from Germany, England or wherever may be able to see the trees through the forest so to speak and make useful suggestions as it never hurts to listen.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

This is a true statement in the past ... these shootings could wind up influencing the next election more so than the Russians did in 2016.

Promises of more gun control could sink a politician on the other hand a pro gun stance could ruin that politicians chance.

One things for sure those students are going to need some answers when school starts up again.

Indeed, the topic of gun control is very much a double edged sword in this country even more so once you get into the realm of politics.

Personally what I think is the main problem on the topic of gun control is what people define "gun control" as. Some are terrified that the government will try to take away their guns, others say it's to ban certain types of firearms such as the AR-15. To me what gun control is, is preventing people like criminals, gang members, and so on from getting firearms in the first place, I also think banning the sale of so called "conversion kits" which can make a semi-auto AR-15 into a fully automatic weapon would be smart. It's really friggin' stupid that conversion kits are only considered illegal AFTER the part(s) have been added to the rifle!


I'd go for an approach like we to do getting a drivers license.

1. The General Purpose License
The types of firearms the "GP" License covers are as follows.
Sporting Rifles
Hunting Rifles
Shotguns
Pistols

These licenses would be valid for 4 years and can be used in all states.
You have to be 21 Years Old to apply for this license, exceptions would be maybe for those 18 years or older providing the applicant has taken a firearms safety course from a certified instructor.

2. The Collectors License
The types of firearms covered by the Collectors License are as follows.
Black Powder Muzzle Loaders (Muskets, Pistol and Rifles)
Bolt Action Rifles WW1- Present Day (Including Sniper Rifles)
Semi- Auto Rifles WW2-Present Day
Assault Rifles
SMGs
HMGs (Heavy Machine Guns) Only for a serious collector! :D

You must be 21 years or older to apply for this license and is valid in all states.
You must have a certification from a firearms safety course to apply.
This license would be valid for 2 years.
If you have a criminal history your application will have to be reviewed by state and local law enforcement before the license is issued or denied. (Applies to both licenses)
The prices of the two licenses will be dependent on the state issuing the license.
You can have multiple guns under one license as long as they fall within the categories that are listed.
Any rifle that has been modified for use in sports shooting or hunting would need to be reviewed before a license was issued.

Any person or persons attempting to obtain these license(s) using false information will be subject to a $500 - $2,000 dollar fine and a maximum 15 years in prison and will not be able to apply for either license for 10 years after serving the prison sentence.

[Sean C]

I think the possibility of becoming [in]famous for committing these heinous acts plays no minor role in the motivation of these maniacs. After all, you could get your face on the cover of Rolling Stone (https://www.bostonmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2013/07/1001005_10151521730765779_1875765078_n.jpg). Then, people might read your manifesto and everyone will know why you were angry. You'll finally be heard.

If it were up to me, they would all be referred to only as "some loser" by the media* - their real names blotted from memory, along with everything else about them. They would only be mentioned briefly enough to point out that they were too cowardly to deal with life's problems like a normal person. The rest of the time would be devoted to remembering the victims and helping the survivors.

*Or some other not-so-nice moniker to that effect.

[Buddahaid]

Indeed, the topic of gun control is very much a double edged sword in this country even more so once you get into the realm of politics.

Personally what I think is the main problem on the topic of gun control is.....

There are millions of guns that are under that radar.

[Jimbuna]

Lots of great posts and analysis. I completely agree with you August on the right to bear arms / weapons and the reasons why. Armistead had mentioned full gun racks in the trucks of students and I remember the identical situation at at my somewhat rural High School as well. I further remember a few High School teachers and one time the principal outside in the parking lot discussing rifles, calibers and grain weight of the bullets in bringing down game. Not that it matters but we were High School football players and students, some of whom hunted and not connected with any sort of militia. There was never an incident then with weapons of any kind as there was a high degree of trust and respect between us students and the teachers and administration of the school. Our parents in those times taught us respect for people and life and insisted we act in accordance with those tenets. That's as it should be. You couldn't bring hunting weapons to school today as the times are way different.

Shootings such as been seen recently would have been completely unthinkable then.

Platapus also hit the nail on the head with his analysis. Platapus had stated the mind set of those who want to kill and not necessarily surviving the encounter. It's really not possible to be 100 % safe all the time. It would seem to make sense that an armed person and citizen makes a poor target. Most law enforcement and prosecutors point to illegal recreational drugs as fueling the increase in crime. People steal and rob to get money to buy drugs. This doesn't seem to be the case in this instance. This sick individual just wanted to kill people and boasted to that effect in social media.

As a number of forum members have already said, the answers in the coming weeks and months won't come easy. However, one possible solution is relatively easy to implement and that is a multiple layered security approach at the schools. Security checkpoints, metal detectors and staff trained to use them. Bullet proof glass in a receiving atrium for all visitors as well. Any visitors would have to be cleared in advance of the visiting day and go through the same screening process as the students in addition to submitting a reason for the visit and be approved and escorted. If a visitor / intruder poses a threat, then that threat could be isolated by means of remote locking doors, contained and if necessary, neutralized within the bulletproof atrium.

None of these provisions will keep the average person on the street safe and aren't meant to but would go a long way toward keeping our children in school safe from armed threats. These may well seem like extreme measures and I certainly would have thought so in High School when I attended. Then again, I never would have thought the carnage we have seen lately would have been possible either.

We owe our kids and their parents this much that they should be able to be safe while learning and protect the lives of their kids. It's clear that actions need to be taken in light of the times to insure our kids safety. While we may differ on what changes need to be implemented I think we can all agree increased security at our schools is a good idea. These changes may be cumbersome at first to enact but I think in the end, well worth it.



You may well be right Sky however German history and that of the creation of the U.S differ. Our fore fathers wanted it's future citizens to be able to protect themselves from tyranny which some governments like to engage in. It's also true that outside casual observers from Germany, England or wherever may be able to see the trees through the forest so to speak and make useful suggestions as it never hurts to listen.

Excellent post IMHO :yep:

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

There are millions of guns that are under that radar.
True, but this is just an idea not a complete solution. I doubt that there will be a solution to this issue as long as people stay entrenched in their ideals and say that the other side is wrong rather then everyone coming together to try to solve it.

[Dowly]

https://i.imgur.com/huLU7i4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/AmZXHdv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ZogSCpu.jpg

[Delgard]

It is the culture, which is good or bad for whatever society it permeates. Culture is very hard to change, especially with the expansive social media, or connectivity, that has come along. But, even that has good attributes in comparison to what has occurred.

It starts with the base of a person's development and continues from there. Family values, community values, and on up to the social fabric of the overall society.

I guess I can speak of values, but I should listen, too. Looking, understanding, and implementing such values is a slow and difficult change to the society. But, it is important for any society to adjust itself in light of the myriad of challenges to what it feels are the best cultural values.

It is akin to parenting only on a grand and inclusive scale. Each adult, exemplifying strong values for society's good. I used to hear about the "Golden Rule", and maybe I am out of touch or too cynical to see it all around me, but I have not heard it mentioned in a long time.

I accept that my parents did the best that they could with what they had. I think I should do the same. I have to learn, understand, and demonstrate the values that I want my, now grandkids, to see and learn from.

As to the event(s) being discussed, I understand the challenges of the school and the FBI. The parenting part, I have not read enough about in the news press. I think that should be talked about more.

[Dowly]

Maybe if the FBI leadership spent less time trying to overturn elections and more time doing their job we would have less of these terrible incidents.
How does Mueller's probe impact on the rest of the FBI for doing their jobs?

Good try to blame the Russian probe on 17 dead kids. Shame on you.

[u crank]

Pressure is mounting on the FBI director to resign after his agency admitted it failed to investigate a warning that the man accused of killing 17 people at a Florida high school possessed a gun and the desire to kill.

Federal Bureau of Investigation said in a statement that a person described as someone close to accused gunman Nikolas Cruz, 19, called an FBI tip line on Jan. 5, weeks before the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, to report concerns about him.

"The caller provided information about Cruz's gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behaviour, and disturbing social media posts, as well as the potential of him conducting a school shooting," it said.

That information should have been forwarded to the FBI's Miami field office for further investigation, but "we have determined that these protocols were not followed", it said.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/17/fbi-director-under-pressure-to-resign-after-florida-school-shooting.html

[Mr Quatro]

I hope the Federal Bureau of Investigation gets their luster (the state or quality of shining by reflecting light; glitter, sparkle, sheen) back ...
they deserve a better report than the one they are getting.

Employees 35,104[1] (October 31, 2014)
Annual budget 8.7 billion USD (FY 2016)[2]

[Sean C]

Good try to blame the Russian probe on 17 dead kids. Shame on you.

I think you meant "blame the death of 17 people on the Russia probe."

...At least I hope that's what you meant.

[August]

How does Mueller's probe impact on the rest of the FBI for doing their jobs?

Well I was talking about the Steele dossier, not the Mueller probe but the impact comes from the failure of the FBI leadership to not spend enough time and effort making sure that nuts like this don't slip through the cracks.

Good try to blame the Russian probe on 17 dead kids. Shame on you.

It was 15 kids and 2 adults Dowly, so shame on you for exaggerating their deaths just to improve your internet forum argument, but good try. :up:

[August]

I think you meant "blame the death of 17 people on the Russia probe."

...At least I hope that's what you meant.

Yeah that's probably what he meant. He hates my guts so he probably dashed it off in anger and didn't take his time to check it first. :)

[Sailor Steve]

Okay, we've all had our say. Please try to make it a little less personal.

[Delgard]

They say it best to admonish in private, and praise in public.

Oh, I like the Helen Keller quote. I will remember that.

[Hawk66]

As a number of forum members have already said, the answers in the coming weeks and months won't come easy. However, one possible solution is relatively easy to implement and that is a multiple layered security approach at the schools. Security checkpoints, metal detectors and staff trained to use them. Bullet proof glass in a receiving atrium for all visitors as well. Any visitors would have to be cleared in advance of the visiting day and go through the same screening process as the students in addition to submitting a reason for the visit and be approved and escorted. If a visitor / intruder poses a threat, then that threat could be isolated by means of remote locking doors, contained and if necessary, neutralized within the bulletproof atrium.

None of these provisions will keep the average person on the street safe and aren't meant to but would go a long way toward keeping our children in school safe from armed threats. These may well seem like extreme measures and I certainly would have thought so in High School when I attended. Then again, I never would have thought the carnage we have seen lately would have been possible either.

.

Maybe just one think to consider: Do you want that schools and public areas become high security areas, a kind of prison? Maybe such things are needed in the short term but don't you think in the longterm the root of the issue has to be solved?

And maybe society should consider more what the young people want to change....by accident I've seen this interview this morning https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-florida-school-shooting-survivors-david-hogg-emma-gonzalez-on-face-the-nation-feb-18-2018/ and I am much impressed by the maturity of those affected by this tragedy...

[Delgard]

Not the best interview, I found it a bit disappointing. CBS, for their part, in playing on the emotions of the moment, and particularly the emotions of the children in the moment, not very developed emotions at that. But, drama does sell and all of the news organizations will keep showing it to their viewers. The one place that I find the easiest access to is the PBS News Hour show for avoiding the influences that say; news outlets have to follow for ratings adn influence that bring sponsor monies to the news outlet’s coffers.

I remember social demonstrations for other issues and they don't have much effect unless they highlight a tangible threat or criminal activity or series of activities that are coded into law. Protesting the Vietnam War, civil rights, and gender protection have taken many years to even get partially addressed. I applaud the heart, hope, and energy of these kids. I see them in my college classes and I do talk and try to bring them the un-biased outlook to directional change for their understanding,. If they still feel it is right for their social values and those around them Just remember that there have also been many that took their social values and created much damage. David Koresch, and many others, went a different way.

Some rights and liberties are very hard to change because of their purpose and legitimacy in what they are focused on. The 2nd Amendment, has a purpose above that of the wishes for any one group of people. There was very much a concern, at that time, that the government could become too oppressive or be changed by an undemocratically few, against the many. It is a basic right, one of ten basic rights. Those basic rights give us freedoms, but they also give opening to the People to have pursuit of a more-perfect Union.

The NRA, is on the firing line since they are one of few prominent gun rights organizations. But, they also support police departments, and other first responders in how they can better do their jobs when citizens impose themselves in the situation. Nobody wants to arrest the parents for barging on to the police scene, disrupting the medical first responders and the investigation as a whole.

The NRA has, also, conducted oversight or participation as a consultant to civil development techniques for communities behind the scenes to keep guns where they belong, and that is not a with a 19yo young man with probable mental issues that need addressing. Because the police, sheriffs, state, and federal assets are hampered by their job limitations, they can’t be everywhere at once.

I believe there was a failure here and changes should be made as budgets permit them to be changed. Who can be there on a regular basis? People that are around these individuals that step forward via the values of home and service work, and those that see the value in just reporting, and following up on their reporting. They can be there. They are taking a responsible action for their own community. Remember, many countries have weapons, but they teach responsibility, instill values to address problems in ways without guns. Problems do get sorted out in those places, but not with guns.

In most of these cases, I fault the parenting and inner communality for not addressing this and other social detractors for a safer environment. Notice, I only said safer. Social change on anyone topic requires leadership, tremendous support, for the opponent will fight the change because they have to be affected by it. That person out front has be out there focused on one goal and they have to be prepared to talk the right talk, walk the right walk, and be supported at the grass-roots levels. Mahatma Gandhi is one such person who has made dramatic changes. Only on one broad subject, but the concept, if seen positively and opened the way for more. The individual, after the 18th birthday, is now an adult and report issues. Their family, parents and siblings can help. So can the neighbors and the community.

The answer is not just the availability of guns and gun shops, it is having values, being responsible in having values, and expressing what values that are loving of our neighbors and, especially, our kids.

There are many steps that the School Board must address. Access points across an open-air campus, travel to and from the school, just activities that occurred in the school.

Parents, guardians have to actively manage their homes, know their neighbors on the street, and their community. They have to know that it is important and they have to report it. The losers can be/will be raised in a more responsible way and the values of acceptance, tolerance, evil practices are “not good”, and many other things will help to have a better social climate. If anyone is physically there, learning about how the different parts of the community decide to adjust and whether they do the work to implement those adjustments. Change will not be overnight, and it will be opposed.

This social change about mental illness and children’s safety is a good immediate step, but the families, the neighbors, and the whole community need to step forward.

And we need leaders at all levels that just have vision to help us go down a better road. That is America.

[Mr Quatro]

Very good Delgard ... I think the DEA and the ATF and the FBI should join together to help reduce crime, drugs and their dependence on guns to protect themselves with.

A real effort to start with apprehending at least 50% of the problem people in these areas, run up the cost of drugs and illegal guns.

Rename the DEA to drug education agency and educate a whole new generation of users before they become users.

Society is to blame and we the people are not being educated enough to control the gratifications of our senses. :o

[u crank]

I would like to add perhaps an obvious comment. These mass murderers like all members of society are products of that society. We all take pride and some credit when society produces good productive and exemplary members of that society. Parents, family, education and close friends play a major role in shaping good responsible citizens. But there are other factors and those other factors have changed dramatically just in my life time. We cannot underestimate the effect that these changes have on young children. I have a two year old grand-daughter who can take her fathers cell phone and find Paw Patrol on Netflix without any help. That amazes me but is also a cause for worry. I don't think anyone can gauge what the long term effects of this kind of technological change in human development will be. But there are other changes that in my opinion are just as disturbing and the main one would be in the field of education. There is little doubt that education in my country and I would say in the USA as well has a very strong Left wing/Liberal bias. A big part of that philosophy is based on a culture of victim hood and offense-taking. Political correctness threatens freedom of thought and speech; ideological orthodoxy undermines individual responsibility. This kind of thing is being taught to very young children. What are the long term effects? If a person feels that they have no real responsibility to society and believes that they are a victim of that society they are in a very dangerous position. Any society should take responsibility for all the members of that society that it produces. I don't think we are.

[Delgard]

I really wanted to leave such specifics alone. What will work in one community may not work in another. It really comes down to values.

We need people that help kids see their abilities early so that they can maximize them. Have that work ethic, community, family life, and teaching their kids.

It is such an in-depth issue, but I do work on me, and what my kids see in me. I spend time with them and I take care of part of the house. We do service work on Saturdays.

My kids are grown so we have a bit more time. I told them that if they stay past their 18 B-day and HS graduation, they paid 200 rent. Well unless they were scheduled for college in fall, then they just still had chores.

Anyway, I just don't see the news talking about parenting and community responsibilities to report something that seems rather odd. The Police currently go to do safety checks on houses if someone calls them.

Families, as a situational resource, seem to have drifted in a bad direction.

Personal, family, and community values. They should be taught early.

[August]

Anyway, I just don't see the news talking about parenting and community responsibilities to report something that seems rather odd. The Police currently go to do safety checks on houses if someone calls them.

Apparently there were over 30 calls to law enforcement about this guy including 2 to the FBI. In this case the community did their job but LE dropped the ball.

[Delgard]

Yes, that definitely was a blooper. But, hopefully the FBI Agent in Charge of the Parkland area office should be charged and fired. If the Sheriff's Department and Parkland police received calls, they get canned.

There is something to be said for responsibility and the Police have to follow the law.

The school, the owners of the house that he lived in, all showed lackadaisical actions. I have had guys stay my house from time to time, but no weapons unless I secure it. And, I do snoop. It is my house after all.

My brain is tired. :)

[Platapus]

In the 2016 election cycle, the NRA' political lobbying organization donated about 3% of all the monies donated to all GOP races.

I would doubt that the NRA is is even in the top 50 lobby organizations. So the argument of the NRA "buying" politicians falls apart.

Politicians may support, or even fear the NRA for many reasons, but financial donations is not one of them.

The NRA is politically powerful only because people think it is politically powerful and allow it.

If we want to politically "defang" the NRA, contact, in writing, your representatives and tell them how you feel about the NRA and its lobbying activities. Of course, if you like the NRA' lobbying activities, tell your representative.

The NRA has about 5,000,000 members. A conservative figure is that the NRA represents less than 10% of the gun owners in the US.

I have been a gun owner for about 30 years and even shot, for a short time, in competitions. I have never been a member of the NRA. Never will. I do not think the NRA supports my views concerning firearms and I believe that the NRA is harming the reputation of gun owners like me.

Unless we contact our representatives and let them how how we feel about the NRA's lobbying activities, our representatives won't know how we feel and won't change.

If the voters tell their representatives that they don't care if the politician votes against the NRA, the NRA will lose a lot of political power.

[Commander Wallace]

Maybe just one think to consider: Do you want that schools and public areas become high security areas, a kind of prison? Maybe such things are needed in the short term but don't you think in the longterm the root of the issue has to be solved?

And maybe society should consider more what the young people want to change....by accident I've seen this interview this morning https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-florida-school-shooting-survivors-david-hogg-emma-gonzalez-on-face-the-nation-feb-18-2018/ and I am much impressed by the maturity of those affected by this tragedy...

Good point Hawk. The last thing I or anyone else wants is for schools to become prisons. Like others,we enjoyed a great deal of freedom when we went to Primary, middle and high school. You hit the nail on the head so to speak. In the short term, everything possible needs to be done to enhance security and a number of schools across the country have implemented various security upgrades.

In the long term, a comprehensive strategy needs to be formulated including addressing mental health and other issues. The problem Hawk is there have been other horrible shootings in the past. The horrible shootings at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown Connecticut where 20 children between the ages of 5-7 were shot and killed and as JimBuna pointed out, The massacre in Dunblane, Scotland. Like many, I have a hard time even thinking about these and other shootings and I try hard not to think of them.

Although the Scotland shootings were not in the U.S, they are just as terrible and we feel just as bad for their losses. Many other shootings with fatalities were in the U.S. The legislature is all but useless and unable to act in the best interests of these kids as evidenced by the fact that Sandy Hook took place, Dec. 14 of 2012. Little if anything has been done in that time to enhance security. While the long term implications need to be ironed out as forum members have suggested with regards to mental health being addressed, I believe in the short term, security upgrades are easy enough to be initiated.

There will obviously have to be some concessions to freedom of movement in school relative to security. There is one caveat. Security personal should be there to perform security details and that's all and not have any involvement with regards to students or official school operations or administration unless there is a clear threat. Security details and their roles should be clearly explained with overall control and oversight handled by the administration of that School district. Perhaps in the future, if these issues can be ironed out, security can be relaxed to a degree everyone is comfortable with. I think input from these students and their parents would be appropriate as well. I appreciate what you said Hawk and your input. :up:

* I'm truly impressed by all the great posts of our forum members. It's apparent that our members put a lot of thinking into this unfortunate situation and have put forth a great deal of information to be considered. I'm honestly not surprised though considering our members backgrounds and education. I've learned a lot reading your posts. Congratulations to all of you for your well considered, thoughtful and thought provoking posts and responses. * :salute:

[vienna]

In the 2016 election cycle, the NRA' political lobbying organization donated about 3% of all the monies donated to all GOP races.

I would doubt that the NRA is is even in the top 50 lobby organizations. So the argument of the NRA "buying" politicians falls apart.

Politicians may support, or even fear the NRA for many reasons, but financial donations is not one of them.

The NRA is politically powerful only because people think it is politically powerful and allow it.

If we want to politically "defang" the NRA, contact, in writing, your representatives and tell them how you feel about the NRA and its lobbying activities. Of course, if you like the NRA' lobbying activities, tell your representative.

The NRA has about 5,000,000 members. A conservative figure is that the NRA represents less than 10% of the gun owners in the US.

I have been a gun owner for about 30 years and even shot, for a short time, in competitions. I have never been a member of the NRA. Never will. I do not think the NRA supports my views concerning firearms and I believe that the NRA is harming the reputation of gun owners like me.

Unless we contact our representatives and let them how how we feel about the NRA's lobbying activities, our representatives won't know how we feel and won't change.

If the voters tell their representatives that they don't care if the politician votes against the NRA, the NRA will lose a lot of political power.

As with so many things, it is often not the quantity, but the quality. The total percentage may be 3%, but to whom did the funds go? Like all other lobbying entities, they don't just spread the funds about to just every candidate, they target those who will be or, in the case of reelection, already are in positions to give them the most bang for the buck. Corruption of the political process is a surgical effort; get to the key Congressional committee chairs and the most influential members and you don't really need the other members...








<O>

[vienna]

This is heartbreaking and uplifting at the same time:


Florida shooting: West Point admits murdered hero --

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43132215


A class gesture by West Point...

Thirteen years old and with a bright future; a great loss, in more ways than one. All sympathies for his parents and family...











<O>

[Rockstar]

Just an FYI I have always thought www.opensecrets.org was a pretty good source to track political spending. Politicians are require by law to reveal or not, incoming and outgoing monies. Open secrets does the work compiling the information for you.

Its just numbers, you make the boogie man.

[Skybird]

Just read that the parliament of Florida shortly debated and refused tighter gun laws - and that they debated in length pornography and decided stricter regulations, saying that porn is a hazard to health.

Can one be even more schizophrenic?

[Delgard]

It's about values. The right to own a gun, by a stable persn, is a cherished right.

Pornography is known to skew many relationships.

I am typing on a phone. That is it in a nutshell....

[Catfish]

Just read that the parliament of Florida shortly debated and refused tighter gun laws - and that they debated in length pornography and decided stricter regulations, saying that porn is a hazard to health.
*Can one be even more schizophrenic?


*Maybe by saying that bombing the hell out of civilians in Syriah is collateral damage?
Or condemning Turkey for becoming a dictatorship trying to exterminate Kurds, while selling
them weapons for crowd control, and tanks and jets?

We already heard here that access to guns has nothing to do with the school shootings. Of course i do not agree. There is no discussion why guns are more dangerous than e.g. knives, and why they lead to another attitude in certain people.
This article is from 2012, after another school shooting:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201212/gun-control-and-the-culture-violence

But Porn is a hazard to health? Like what the good old Onan in the bible did gives you weak knees and all that? :doh:

[Skybird]

It's about values. The right to own a gun, by a stable persn, is a cherished right.

Pornography is known to skew many relationships.

I am typing on a phone. That is it in a nutshell....

Please. Not this opportunistic pseudo-rationality again. Its an offence to the dead and those they left behind and who miss them.

[August]

Please. Not this opportunistic pseudo-rationality again. Its an offence to the dead and those they left behind and who miss them.

A couple of things.

Where do you get off determining what is or isn't an offense to the dead?
Why ask a question if you're just going to mock people when they try to answer it?

[Mr Quatro]

A hero at (15) :yep:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/21/west-point-admits-parkland-student-peter-wang-who-died-helping-students-during-shooting/357885002/

A 15-year-old high school student who died helping classmates escape from a gunman at a Florida high school last week was posthumously accepted to the U.S. Military Academy at West Point on Tuesday.

Peter Wang earned admission to the prestigious military academy for his "heroic actions on Feb. 14, 2018," at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla., West Point said in a statement. Witnesses and authorities said Wang, who dreamt of attending West Point, died in his JROTC uniform while holding a school door open so classmates and faculty could escape. Wang was one of 17 people gunned down during the shooting.

He was buried in his JROTC uniform on Tuesday.

[vienna]

Just read that the parliament of Florida shortly debated and refused tighter gun laws - and that they debated in length pornography and decided stricter regulations, saying that porn is a hazard to health.

Can one be even more schizophrenic?

You have just begun to grasp US politics, Grasshopper...

When faced with actually having to deal with a real-time issue, the Far Right and those leaning have always tried to deflect by going after what they feel will distract the proles from asking questions; they just trot out all the usual 'suspects' they can huff and puff and loudly and tritely moralize about, things like the porn you mentioned, or abortion, prayer in schools, not standing for the Pledge of Allegiance, kneeling during the National Anthem, etc., etc.; anything they think can buy them enough time they hope will make the actual issue(s) go away from the public interest, because, hey, the elected officials on the FR aren't really in office for the public interest...










<O>

[vienna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa0tSw2iV5o










<O>

[mapuc]

I feel a little shame about the Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke.

In a tweet to Trump he wrote

And I quote
"Do not intend to interfere, but allow me to give a Danish perspective
@realDonaldTrump, please, response to the request of your youngsters who demands gun control. Don't accept the world record in school shoutings. Make America great and safe again"

Shame he interferes with an American domestic problem and that he, as a prime minister with people around him couldn't write the word shooting correctly.

Markus

[Rockstar]

Even the people complaining don't really have an idea what can be done. IMO it should have been handled at home, in the neighborhood, school, doctors office and state levels long before it got to this point. Apathy at those levels is what permitted this to happen in the first place. Screaming at Trump to do something is just political drama that goes no where. Since we don't live in a dictatorship nor do we have a king there is very little if anything Trump can do on his own.

What about personal responsibility. Who gave the kid the key to the gun box? Does anyone here know yet the details how exactly he got possession of the rifle?

Kids suffering from post traumatic stress and late night comedy show hosts taking advantage of peoples emotions for the ratings isn't going to provide any sensible answers either.

[Skybird]

A couple of things.

Where do you get off determining what is or isn't an offense to the dead?
Why ask a question if you're just going to mock people when they try to answer it?
You dont need me to play ping pong. A wall will suffice.

[Rockstar]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article201216104.html

In addition to apathy there are the lawsuits. Still how did he come into possession of that rifle who was it that permitted that?

[Delgard]

I suppose I give a little more credit. But, I do know that lumping them into two party's is not valid anymore. To much divisiveness, kind of like society. No trust of one-another, even a little cooperation is jumped upon as being weak. Really, a death struggle where both end up losing and the people in turn.

Those holdout extremists from each party are preventing a consensus for the middle, which is the majority of the people. Looking at these middle individuals, their views span both sides, depending on the issue. They would appreciate getting farther than where we have come with current issues.

Just for myself, I believe in the right to a gun, since I live in the desert and we have border issues. I have fired it into the air. My son learned early to hit 911 and put the phone down. Someone is not defending the border.

Going back to pornography, it is not appreciated as art. What is displayed is not respected. There is a great inability to respect. So easy to be the rude American.

I liked the stance of standing for the Anthem. Go on the field, meet your opponent, beat them. Bring honor to your people for American courage and purpose.

The abortion issue. It has its place. Something unusual, though is that those that have had a child, having an abortion is next to nil. But a 19yo...

An experienced adult knows what it means to have a weapon, but a 19yo...

There is responsibility, and, some are mentally incapable of being that way.

Is this left or right...or is it just part of the middle.

[Onkel Neal]

Anyone have a link to the CNN townhall? I have found clips, but I would like to watch the whole thing.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/21/politics/cnn-town-hall-florida-shooting/index.html

[Dowly]

Anyone have a link to the CNN townhall? I have found clips, but I would like to watch the whole thing.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/21/politics/cnn-town-hall-florida-shooting/index.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaLh74eXTDo

[Mr Quatro]

There was an armed guard outside the building when the shooting occurred:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/22/stoneman-douglas-shooting-armed-guard-did-not-go-in

The armed deputy who was on campus at Marjory Stoneman Douglas high school when a gunman massacred 17 people stood outside the building as it occurred and did not go in to engage the shooter, the Broward County sheriff, Scott Israel, said on Thursday.

When asked what Peterson should have done, Israel said the deputy should have “went in, addressed the killer, killed the killer”.

The sheriff said he was “devastated, sick to my stomach. There are no words.”

Lawsuit in progress ... someone is going go broke over this one

[Delgard]

That is a concern in the discussions. Are teachers armed first-responders with body-armor and Oakleys or are they teachers?

Just wait until the Union hears about this...

[Catfish]

Is it really Trump's proposal, to arm teachers?

[mapuc]

WHY, that was the first word that popped up in my head, after I read and heard about this guard, who didn't do anything during the shootings.

WHY ?? Why didn't he do anything ?

Markus

[Schroeder]

WHY, that was the first word that popped up in my head, after I read and heard about this guard, who didn't do anything during the shootings.

WHY ?? Why didn't he do anything ?

Markus
Because he is a human and therefore likes to keep his life. Would you dare to run into an active shooting scenario?

But yes, he certainly had the wrong job.:/\\!!

[mapuc]

Because he is a human and therefore likes to keep his life. Would you dare to run into an active shooting scenario?

But yes, he certainly had the wrong job.:/\\!!

I'm not accusing him of anything or pointing finger at him

The upcoming investigation have to find out why he didn't do anything and it is the authorities that shall decide what kind of punishment he deserve.

Markus

[Jeff-Groves]

WHY, that was the first word that popped up in my head, after I read and heard about this guard, who didn't do anything during the shootings.

WHY ?? Why didn't he do anything ?

Markus

Quite frankly? I believe he is a Coward.
Probably figured it was a cush job till retirement.
His reward will be He will be known as a coward for ever more.
Some would say better to live a coward then die a hero.
I say if you can not handle the job even in the worst of situations?
DO NOT stand up and take it hoping the worst never comes to pass.

I also believe he should lose all retirement benefits at the very lest.
In a way? He was an accomplice to this tragedy.

[Jeff-Groves]

So now we are seeing that more LEO's were on scene but failed to do their duty?
https://nypost.com/2018/02/23/four-sheriffs-deputies-hid-during-florida-school-shooting/

I am starting to see why respect for those in Law Enforcement is in a sharp decline in this Nation.
And this is a VERY sharp point as to why.

To those So called 'Officers'? I say turn in your guns and badges and go work at McDonalds or WalMart.
You are a disgrace to the Profession and besmirch the True Professionals.

Imagine the ParaTroopers of the 82nd AirBorne giving up during the Battle of the Bulge!

You people in other Countries wonder what is wrong here in the States?
The fact that 4 ARMED LEO's hid out side while the shooter committed his rampage should speak volumes!

[Rockstar]

A lot of people dropped the ball. And didn't have jack squat do to with president, the NRA, politics or donations. It had everything to with a lack of interest in doing a job you're paid to do.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tipster’s-warning-to-fbi-on-florida-shooting-suspect-‘i-know-he’s-going-to-explode’/ar-BBJvA7p?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

The authorities have acknowledged mishandling numerous warning signs that Mr. Cruz was deeply troubled. There were tips to the F.B.I. about disturbing social media posts. There were visits by social services to his home. There were dozens of calls to 911 and the local authorities, some mentioning fears that he was capable of violence.

Reviewing the transcripts of those calls, and listening to the audiotapes of some of them, is a chilling exercise that makes Mr. Cruz’s arrest in one of America’s deadliest school shootings seem less than a complete surprise.

Transcripts: http://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/2018/02/23/fbi-transcripts/assets/fbi-transcript.pdf

[Jeff-Groves]

"The authorities have acknowledged mishandling"
Ya think?

I've seen where some called this a 'False Flag'. If it was? It was a total fail.

[Jeff-Groves]

The fact that the so called system failed at identifying and neutralizing the threat is one thing.

Failure of the so called 'Officers' on the scene? THAT is a whole different ball game!

Try to excuse those 'Officers' as you wish. I have personally met at lest 4 people here at Subsim that I would not want to face if I was the shooter.

We are being feed the 'They are Heros' line and now we see the results that are going to have far reaching impacts.

[Skybird]

Have those inactive guardians already given their reasons why they decided not to aggressively go in? Maybe they indeed only have weaseling excuses, but we should want to be sure that there was nothing that appeared to them as a good reasons not to do right that what they did: keeping in their place. Total confusion about what was going on, and where, and how many.

Just for the sense of complete overview. I mean, blindly running around like a beheaded chicken, or flipping a coin for the right direction to shoot at, everybody can. Doing somethign that indeed makes sense - that might be something different.

Do we know for sure that it was stupidity or cowardice or shock or whatever that has frozen them in place? Ifso, if they were incomoetent, then yes, spank them. If they had some valid reasons, however, well, then it are valid reasons.

I do not want to excuse anyone for anything. Just asking, for I would like to know.

[Skybird]

In the foreigner's perception:

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fpolitik%2Fausland% 2Fusa-was-hinter-amerikas-waffenwahn-steckt-a-1195177.html&edit-text=

[Onkel Neal]

In the foreigner's perception:

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fpolitik%2Fausland% 2Fusa-was-hinter-amerikas-waffenwahn-steckt-a-1195177.html&edit-text=

There it is
It's all about power, money and America's original sin - racism.

I stopped there.

[Jimbuna]

Several US companies have cut ties with the National Rifle Association (NRA) amid calls for a boycott of businesses linked to the powerful gun lobby in the wake of the Florida school shooting.

The firms include car rental giants Hertz and Enterprise, which had offered discounts for NRA members.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43173753

An inevitable consequence I reckon :yep:

[Skybird]

There it is


I stopped there.

You shouldn'T. There is an explanation in history why the authors said that. Civil War. Freeing of Slaves. Firearms in black hands. Whites not wanting that. Dissolving of KKK falling together with founding the NRA. Civil Rights Movement and Anti Vietnam Protest. The fact that school shootings almost always are committed by whites, not blacks.

Did you know that watching the same skyline of the same city from the other end of that city - gives you a completely different sight? ;)

[Rockstar]

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center I don't see any historical 'close ties' to the NRA. I think the Spiegel article shows a certain level of ignorance of American history.

"In fact, the beginning of the Klan involved nothing so sinister, subversive or ancient as the theories supposed. it was the boredom of small-town life that led six young Confederate veterans to gather around a fireplace one December evening in 1865 and form a social club. the place was Pulaski, Tenn., near the Alabama border. when they reassembled a week later, the six young men were full of ideas for their new society. it would be secret, to heighten the amusement of the thing, and the titles for the various offices were to have names as preposterous-sounding as possible, partly for the fun of it and partly to avoid any military or political implications."

The KKK was never meant to be what it is today. It started out as an eccentric social club by six former confederates. Only later did it re-invented itself into the terrorist organization it is today.

The NRA organization was never that. Behavior of some of its members however may be an entirely different story.

Just because Cruz was a student at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School. It doesn't mean every one else there is as sick or evil as he is.

[vienna]

The source for the above:

Ku Klux Klan - A History of Racism and Violence (6th Ed., 2011) --

(Website Version)

https://www.splcenter.org/20110228/ku-klux-klan-history-racism

(PDF Version)

https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/Ku-Klux-Klan-A-History-of-Racism.pdf


The essay has these paragraphs following a bit after the previously quoted passage:




Soon after the founders named the Klan, they decided to do a bit of showing off, and so disguised themselves in sheets and galloped their horses through the quiet streets of tiny Pulaski. their ride created such a stir that the men decided to adopt the sheets as the official regalia of the Ku Klux Klan, and they added to the effect by donning grotesque masks and tall pointed hats. They also performed elaborate initiation ceremonies for new members. Similar to the hazing popular in college fraternities, the ceremony consisted of blindfolding the candidate, subjecting him to a series of silly oaths and rough handling, and finally bringing him before a “royal altar” where he was to be invested with a “royal crown.” the altar turned out to be a mirror and the crown two large donkey’s ears. Ridiculous though it sounds today, that was the high point of the earliest activities of the Ku Klux Klan.

Had that been all there was to the Ku Klux Klan, it probably would have disappeared as quietly as it was born. But at some point in early 1866, the club added new members from nearby towns and began to have a chilling effect on local blacks. The intimidating night rides were soon the centerpiece of the hooded order: bands of white-sheeted ghouls paid late night visits to black homes, admonishing the terrified occupants to behave themselves and threatening more visits if they didn’t. It didn’t take long for the threats to be converted into violence against blacks who insisted on exercising their new rights and freedom. Before its six founders realized what had happened, the Ku Klux Klan had become something they may not have originally intended — something deadly serious.


As with many aspects of life, it isn't what someone or something starts out as that's ultimately important, it what they are or have become that really matters; I'm sure Nazism just started with a bunch of guys bitching over beers; if that was all they did, no one would care...

On the other hand, a bunch of guys in New England bitched over ales and decided to to do something positive about their gripes and, in the end, we have our nation. Don't know about you, but I'm more impressed with the New Englanders than I could ever possibly be with those "silly" ex-Confederates and their sympathizers...










<O>

[mapuc]

I have read and heard several companies in the States have cut their support to NRA and the protesters is growing among the youngsters

If my memory doesn't play tricks with me I seem to remember the same thing happened last time the were this mass shooting(Las Vegas)

Lots of protest and angry voices towards NRA.

As last time- After a couple of month NRA was back on track with companies supporting them.

Markus

[Catfish]

Nothing changes.

[Rockstar]

Nope, it appear things never change. Never a solution, no wisdom, divert the attention and play on the fears of the ignorant, turning tragedy into a political power grab.


People need a boogie man and even though in my opinion they had absolutely nothing to do with the shooting the NRA happens to be it.


As an owner of several firearms and not belonging to any political party or 'gun club'. I have absolutely no problem making behavioral and prescription records available to authorities when purchasing a fire arm. But the problem with that is you then make the government fully responsible for any mass shooting thereafter because they (the government) OK'd the applicants purchase.

[Catfish]

This is the usual twisted right-wing "logic", designed to divert from the real issue, desinformation and dumb. Call scientific methods "politically inspired", and all gun critics "snowflakes".
Proposing to arm teachers as a 'solution'?
You have no idea how this all looks, from here.

[vienna]

Oh, he does; he's just desperately hoping no one else does...











<O>

[Rockstar]

This is the usual twisted right-wing "logic", designed to divert from the real issue, desinformation and dumb. Call scientific methods "politically inspired", and all gun critics "snowflakes".
Proposing to arm teachers as a 'solution'?
You have no idea how this all looks, from here.

I said nothing of snowflakes, YOU DID. I said nothing of Right wing or left wing politics, YOU DID.

What I said was nothing ever changes in fact you just proved my feking point. Whether its you turning tragedy it into some political farce about us and them. Or someone making a call to arm teachers. There is never any wisdom, or solutions. Nothing ever changes. This will soon be forgotten and one day it will happen again like a bad dream because nothing ever changes. No wisdom, no solutions just political drama and power grabs, a boogie man, and media circus.


And frankly I don't give a ratzarse what it looks like to you. That's not the problem.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m325lrnSfr1qf3hns.jpg

[Catfish]

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center I don't see any historical 'close ties' to the NRA. I think the Spiegel article shows a certain level of ignorance of American history. [...]

Whether the 'Spiegel' shows ignorance about american history.. i think you do. The relatively short history of the USA shows close ties to weapons and malevolent behaviour, it is even called gun culture by its very inhabitants. Maybe the NRA has absolutely nothing to do with the shootings (what i seriously doubt regarding propagating public access, allowances and financing "ego shooters" (what a perfectly fitting name b.t.w.) for "gamers"), but whatever: the very beginnings and existence of something like the NRA is exactly one example of the problem and the general mindset. This alone has not much to do with the KKK, i agree. But "you" do not even want to see the problem that lies behind, but instead arm all teachers and pupils? How sick is this?

[Skybird]

Meine Fresse.

Just to make sure everybody understood what the article indeed has said:


KKK and NRA

The founding of the NRA in 1871 is closely linked to the end of the Civil War in 1865. For the first time, blacks also got access to weapons - and promptly there were first efforts to restrict this again. It was about "taking away the ability of the blacks to defend themselves," later NRA President David Keene said in retrospect. It was not by chance that the NRA formed at the same time as America's first Ku Klux Klan movement was under pressure to re-invent itself as "rifle groups."


Later, as the US civil rights movement began to dismantle the white power in the 1950s and 1960s, the NRA transformed itself from a rather harmless sports hunter and gun control organization to a radical lobby in the arms industry with one goal: more weapons but preferably only for whites. That was well received by the Conservatives in Washington, who were fighting Malcolm X, the Black Panthers, and other black rebels. Weapons control became an ideological dispute between Democrats and Republicans, left and right.


And further:


Indigenous people and slaves

Weapons created America. The US fought for independence from the British crown by force of arms and since then distrust the idea of ​​a powerful central state. Thus, in 1791, the "Second Amendment" came into being, which, of course, tied the ownership of weapons to a "well-regulated militia", a vigilante that could oppose state assaults - a condition that many US gunners today happily ignore.


Also often forgotten: the gun law, already codified separately in many US colonies, served not only to protect against oppression from above, but also to suppress revolts from below. Forcibly, the new Americans first expelled the indigenous peoples - then forcibly consolidate their power and control their slaves.

[Delgard]

The problem with articles is that they have a focus based upon someone's well-intended research and intent. The intent is where the biasness usually becomes noticeable. Good or bad, accurate or not.

One article, is not history represented in a complete way...Definitely not something to only post of the bad.

What is needed are the fixes and their good points and bad points. Someone mentioned physical security and I thought that some schools are rather large with multiple entrances. I school is a place for exposure; sports, arts, academics, even rehabilitation. All running at different times and needing accesses and exits.

Just that one consideration exposes the school and those in it, but what to do...?

[Jeff-Groves]

Have those inactive guardians already given their reasons why they decided not to aggressively go in? Maybe they indeed only have weaseling excuses, but we should want to be sure that there was nothing that appeared to them as a good reasons not to do right that what they did: keeping in their place. Total confusion about what was going on, and where, and how many.

Just for the sense of complete overview. I mean, blindly running around like a beheaded chicken, or flipping a coin for the right direction to shoot at, everybody can. Doing somethign that indeed makes sense - that might be something different.

Do we know for sure that it was stupidity or cowardice or shock or whatever that has frozen them in place? Ifso, if they were incomoetent, then yes, spank them. If they had some valid reasons, however, well, then it are valid reasons.

I do not want to excuse anyone for anything. Just asking, for I would like to know.
Let's see.
They are Sworn to serve and protect. Failed on both those points no matter the reasoning.

I'm pretty sure you'd not need to flip a coin on which direction to shoot!
Hear and follow the gun shots. If the perp at the source is not dressed like you? KILL the SOB!! They are supposedly trained LEO's after all.

Perhaps they wanted someone kneeling on a floor begging not to be shot before they wanted to shoot him dead. That has happened in the U.S.A.
Even that LEO was not convicted of a crime so what did they have to fear?
Oh! I might get hurt!!!

[Jeff-Groves]

Since September 2001 LEO's have been called Heroes just for doing their jobs.

Broward County just crushed that seeing that they couldn't or wouldn't do their job when needed in a drastic way.

Sorry LEO's. None of you are Heroes any longer until you prove it on an individual basis. Suck it up Butter Cups! Your just another Guy doing a job.

[Platapus]

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/5/16430684/nra-congress-money-no

An interesting article on the political power of the NRA and how it is not about the small percentage of donations.

[Jeff-Groves]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ai_BkSN8jg&sns=fb

[Sean C]

...There is an explanation in history why the authors said that. Civil War. Freeing of Slaves. Firearms in black hands. Whites not wanting that. Dissolving of KKK falling together with founding the NRA. Civil Rights Movement and Anti Vietnam Protest. The fact that school shootings almost always are committed by whites, not blacks.

Um, wat? Are you serious? What on earth has any of this got to do with some lunatic shooting up a school now? Do you really think that's what was going through his mind at the time? Give me a break.

Sure, guns are readily available here, and they're often used to commit crimes. But if you think crimes like this are committed because of the Civil War and the KKK ... well, I'm sorry, but you sound crazy. There are plenty of other, much more plausible reasons for the rise in frequency of this type of crime. We don't need to reach that far.

I suppose next we'll discuss how this was all planned by the Illuminati.

The founding of the NRA in 1871 is closely linked to the end of the Civil War in 1865. For the first time, blacks also got access to weapons - and promptly there were first efforts to restrict this again. It was about "taking away the ability of the blacks to defend themselves," later NRA President David Keene said in retrospect. It was not by chance that the NRA formed at the same time as America's first Ku Klux Klan movement was under pressure to re-invent itself as "rifle groups."

Well, if you take a moment to look at U.S. crime statistics (https://ucr.fbi.gov/), you'll see that that plan failed miserably. But It's easy to see how what happened in Florida will help turn things around for the NRA and KKK. :|

I mean, really, who the hell takes stuff like this seriously? SMH.

[Dowly]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to start allowing institutions like the CDC to reserach gun violence. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Let's see.
They are Sworn to serve and protect. Failed on both those points no matter the reasoning.

I'm pretty sure you'd not need to flip a coin on which direction to shoot!
Hear and follow the gun shots. If the perp at the source is not dressed like you? KILL the SOB!! They are supposedly trained LEO's after all.

Perhaps they wanted someone kneeling on a floor begging not to be shot before they wanted to shoot him dead. That has happened in the U.S.A.
Even that LEO was not convicted of a crime so what did they have to fear?
Oh! I might get hurt!!!Have you even understood what I asked for? :06:

[Platapus]

Easy way to the the NRA to accept gun control legislation.

All you gotta do is put in a clause requiring all gun owners to become NRA members and require all gun owners to take an NRA course.

Once the NRA realizes how much money they can make , I think we will be surprised at how quickly the NRA can change its agenda.

[Aktungbby]

All you gotta do is put in a clause requiring all gun owners to become NRA members and require all gun owners to take an NRA course. ACTUALLY, ALL GUN OWNERS SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO TAKE A SEMESTER COURSE AT A LOCAL POLICE ACADEMY IN ARREST AND FIREARMS OR WHAT USED TO BE THE 'MODULE 'A' P.O.S.T CERTIFICATE; ESSENTIALLY A CIVILIAN MINDED COURSE WHICH HAS KEPT ME EMPLOYED SINCE 1994, IN FEDERAL HOUSING PROJECTS AND FEDERAL BUILDINGS, AND WAS THE CIVILIAN REQUIREMENT FOR A CITIZEN'S CONCEALED PERMIT AS WELL. THUS THE 'WELL ORDERED MILITIA' FACTOR OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT WOULD BE CONSIDERBLY IMPROVED. AS A MEMBER OF A 'WELL ORDERED' AND TRAINED MILITIA, CONTROL WOULD BE BETTER OVER THE NUT-CASES....IMHO:shucks:

[mapuc]

Correct me if I'm wrong

I get the feeling, by reading between the lines, It's all NRA's fault.

Is it NRA's fault all the way ?

Markus

[Commander Wallace]

Correct me if I'm wrong

I get the feeling, by reading between the lines, It's all NRA's fault.

Is it NRA's fault all the way ?

Markus


This really is a case of the " blame game " markus. Typical of moronic politicians, they would rather point fingers than work together constructively to address a serious issue. Other Subsim members in the U.S like many others in the country, have weapons and have taken responsibility for how their weapons are secured and used. Our members like many others have training and make sure they are proficient in the use of weapons.

The political powers that be want to make people like that feel responsible somehow and are shamefully using this platform as an agenda for once again taking aim at responsible gun owners, no pun intended, and their rights.

The NRA didn't make this loser / lunatic go on a shooting spree in a school the same as gun manufacturers are hardly responsible for how weapons are used once they leave a retail outlet providing all federal and state statutes have been strictly followed. As has been reported, law enforcement dropped the ball badly on this one and kids lost their lives for no reason as a result. I hope the law enforcement agencies who shirked their responsibility can live with themselves because the parents of the kids that were killed got a life sentence -of grief.

[Onkel Neal]

Over my lifetime, when there is a mass shooting or major gun crime like an assassination, the call for more "background checks" is raised. There have been more than a few laws as a result, but apparently they were a bad idea, they sure don't seem to be working.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 mandated that individual and corporate firearms dealers have a Federal Firearms License. It was very weak and I doubt it had much effect on keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals and lunatics.

In 1998 the National Instant Criminal Background Check System went into effect, and was intended to stop firearm sales a "prohibited person", which is someone who:


Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
Is under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
Is a fugitive from justice;
Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution;
Is illegally or unlawfully in the United States;
Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced U.S. citizenship;
Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner;
Has been convicted in any court of a "misdemeanor crime of domestic violence"


In the last few years these mass shootings have often been a result of the failure of government (state, local, federal, armed forces) to administer the background checks properly. So, sure, we could pass more laws and improve background checks, but how much help will this be if they are not managed faithfully? I'm open to improvements in this system, but I don't think it will be a magical solution.

[Commander Wallace]

In the last few years these mass shootings have often been a result of the failure of government (state, local, federal, armed forces) to administer the background checks properly. So, sure, we could pass more laws and improve background checks, but how much help will this be if they are not managed faithfully? I'm open to improvements in this system, but I don't think it will be a magical solution.


As you said, I don't think more rules or regs are going to help or be particularly effective. A far better approach would be to simply enforce the laws we have on the books. Many gun dealers have said the same thing. If the govt. can't enforce the regs it has in place, what chance does it have with new laws ?

We must have a great sense of humor here in the U.S as we elect so many jokes to elected office. On the other hand, jokes are funny and this situation and our elected officials are anything but funny.

[Skybird]

As you said, I don't think more rules or regs are going to help or be particularly effective. A far better approach would be to simply enforce the laws we have on the books. Many gun dealers have said the same thing. If the govt. can't enforce the regs it has in place, what chance does it have with new laws ?

We must have a great sense of humor here in the U.S as we elect so many jokes to elected office. On the other hand, jokes are funny and this situation and our elected officials are anything but funny.
Just darken your black sense of humour just a little bit more, and you can laugh yourself to death. Opportunities there are aplenty.

I agree, more laws will do nothing, and like I said before, I think it is a social, cultural, mass-psychological, mentality issue. If any changes short of just banning firearms shall have rewards, they must begin in reeducating a whole history, tradition, self-definition and culture. Adn that will cost time, probably generations, and holds its own risks, as we can see in Europe, where the home populations are increaisngly unable to consider force as a valid option to defend themselves. And thats makes them helpless against those who disagree on that taboo.

A wide mass-movement, much bigger than the students protesting now and the companies ending their cooperaiton with the NRA, however could maybe have an effect. Juzst that I find it difficult to prject what this effect will be like - if said protests would turn into a real big and long-lasting, enduring mass movement, big enough to bring down a government and threatening politician's careers by the dozens.

Or we will see that the pain and death toll simply is not high enough for America to change itself. Then people have to suffer what they must, and thats it. Stale routine in doing right that there is enough, bitter observers might have noticed by now. And like sex, funerals and stale speeches push TV quotas upwards. When "leaders" preach, many freeeze and stand at attention. Bravo. Nothing beats drill and routine.

[Commander Wallace]

Just darken your black sense of humour just a little bit more, and you can laugh yourself to death. Opportunities there are aplenty.

I agree, more laws will do nothing, and like I said before, I think it is a social, cultural, mass-psychological, mentality issue. If any changes short of just banning firearms shall have rewards, they must begin in reeducating a whole history, tradition, self-definition and culture. Adn that will cost time, probably generations, and holds its own risks, as we can see in Europe, where the home populations are increaisngly unable to consider force as a valid option to defend themselves. And thats makes them helpless against those who disagree on that taboo.

Sky, you are so way off as to defy description. Using our members as an example, we are all armed and hardly a threat to anyone, unless someone attempts to invade our homes or hurts someone we care about, then all bets are off. Our members represent a cross section of society as a whole. Most people like our subsim members employ the science of physics and ballistics with regards to grain weights and other factors to increase their accuracy.

You apparently have this image that we are all lunatics. We are the same people who work 40 hours a week, attend church regularly not to mention soccer, football, baseball practices and other activities for our kids after working 8-12 hours on a given day. We do that because our kids are everything to us as they are to other parents in other countries. We look out for our neighbors kids too and our neighborhood. They are the same people who take time off to help people they don't even know, thousands of miles away, to recover from natural disasters like hurricans and tornado's.

These are the same people who take their freedoms seriously and wouldn't think twice about taking up arms to protect that.

In my mind, people who do that aren't lunatics, they are everyday hero's and if need be, patriots. That's what our society is all about.

By the way, our history was written in the blood of others who defined the term patriots who gave everything, including their sons to build a nation. They are as revered today as they were then as are their words, actions, honor and integrity that they held most sacred.

[mapuc]

Nobody shall point fingers at anyone whether it's an American, a German or a third person

99.999999+ percentage of the Americans who have guns is ordinary people working and so on.

They are not a threat to other people.

I can't understand why these people should have removed their right to own (a) weapon(s)

I think Platapus signatur(if that is the correct word) can be used here

"abusus non tollit usum " The rest you know.

Markus

[Mr Quatro]

Well as long as we are just talking like we do on everything else ... :yep:

I think the next coming elections (is that this year in November I think) will prove to be someone's downfall, but the winner will promise the people against guns everything they want and if he or she wins they will have to deliver.

However they won't be able to deliver even if the politicians that the gun control people vote in due to the NRA being right or wrong, is stronger than all get out.

All this talk and nothing will get done and by this time next year nothing will have been done and the people in office will simply throw up their hands and say, "Our hands are tied" they won't let us change anything.

The real problem is copy cats shooting up the next school ... who are you going to blame? Mental health, the gun laws, back ground checks, sheriff's standing outside the classroom door with gun drawn, the politicians, the innocent students that are still being buried?

Nothing is going to get done ... that will stop the next shooter. You can't solve mental illness in a permissive society that thrives on gun violence in the movies and in video games. Three hundred and thirty (330) million people are not going to give up their rights to bear arms :o

[Skybird]

Sky, you are so way off as to defy description. Using our members as an example, we are all armed and hardly a threat to anyone, unless someone attempts to invade our homes or hurts someone we care about, then all bets are off. Our members represent a cross section of society as a whole. Most people like our subsim members employ the science of physics and ballistics with regards to grain weights and other factors to increase their accuracy.

You apparently have this image that we are all lunatics. We are the same people who work 40 hours a week, attend church regularly not to mention soccer, football, baseball practices and other activities for our kids after working 8-12 hours on a given day. We do that because our kids are everything to us as they are to other parents in other countries. We look out for our neighbors kids too and our neighborhood. They are the same people who take time off to help people they don't even know, thousands of miles away, to recover from natural disasters like hurricans and tornado's.

These are the same people who take their freedoms seriously and wouldn't think twice about taking up arms to protect that.

In my mind, people who do that aren't lunatics, they are everyday hero's and if need be, patriots. That's what our society is all about.

By the way, our history was written in the blood of others who defined the term patriots who gave everything, including their sons to build a nation. They are as revered today as they were then as are their words, actions, honor and integrity that they held most sacred.
Honestly said, I do not feel as if that reply is meant for me.

BTW, my father held a pistol license until last year, he did shooting as a sports, small callibre pistol. I probably would own a firearm myself if in Germany you would not have so intense regulations and quite voluminous theory tests and obligations to constantly report and document organised competition participation which all is meant to discourage people from trying to gain licenses.

Try to correctly understand what I actually said and mean. I admit that I think Michael Moore did a good job in illustrating what I meant with "cultural thing" and "mentality" when he did Bowling for Columbine. Im not a fan of him in general, but that film was damn good. He really hit the right nerve there.

By German standards, I am an extremist and probably a right-winged danger to society due to my "lenient" ideas on private gun ownership. For many Americans, I am an extremist for not being lenient enough. Well, so be it. :ping:

[Buddahaid]

Really I suppose because I grew up in the US decades ago, I look at firearm ownership in a much more loose manner. It was never an OMG moment to have them and it never raised any eyebrows, it was normal.

[Skybird]

To some degree I would go with those saying the weapon itself is not so much the problem, but the mind commanding it. And there you are at it: culture, mentality, focus on violence. The question is why are there so many people being fixiated on firearms, military grade weapons, why are the so many flipped-out minds absuing the opportunity to cause a mess with them? There is a correlation by trend between firearms in private possession, and sucide rates amongst males, in Switzerland for exmaple this rate is also above the average in Western states, due to their militia system many households have assault rifles at home. But why is the suicide rate in which these get used still I think six times lower than in the US? Why are there so many loose mind and so many gun-linked incidents in the US? Why are school-incidents almost always (or even always?) carried out by whites, never by blacks or others?

The answers will not be found by writing new laws. But by looking at the culture, and the living environment it creates. A lobby organisation like the NRA makes a profit by forming and sharpening certain traits that result form said culture, to extremes, preventing chnage by polarising the debate until there is just black and white left, absolute, total extremes.

Why a hunter thinks that he must hunt a deer with military-grade semiautomatic rifles, is beyond me, and always will be. And self-defence against crminals imo does not mean to maintain an arsenal that is big enough to survive the zombie apocalypse, is paranoid. Every household not just a pistol or hunting rifle, but enough arms to arm its own private army? Hilarious. Fetishism I call it.

Obviously there are quite some extreme tensions amongst the civilised surface of this culture. And quite some souls break up under these tensions. Every society has its hidden demons.

[Jeff-Groves]

Have you even understood what I asked for? :06:
I'd say more like you did not understand the answers.
If you expect me to quote you and then answer?
Not gonna happen.

Look at it this way.
Say the U.S.A. claimed that West Germany was a new State of the U.S.A. at the end of WWII.
How would you react to the Laws of the U.S.A.?

I try to understand what happened before WWII in Germany and after.
But I'd never speak out and say what you all should do today. It's not my place, not my fight, not my right.
And I mean that with all due respect.

It's so easy to sit in our homes and put our personal perspectives on things and proclaim that we have the answers!
Guess what? I don't work that way! Never has. Never will!

[Rockstar]

I dont agree with the use of semi- auto firearms in hunting either. But if thats all the hunter does with the firearms thats fine. I own Curio&Relic former military semi-autos for plinkin at a well run rifle range, and thats it. The NRA does not promote violence it promotes safe practices. Its certain people within and without such organizations that are susceptable to other influence.

As this article pretty much states,

www.psychiatrictimes.com/child-adolescent-psychiatry/violence-media-what-effects-behavior

Violence in the media has been increasing and reaching proportions that are dangerous,” said Emanuel Tanay, MD, a retired Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at Wayne State University and a forensic psychiatrist for more than 50 years.

“You turn on the television, and violence is there. You go to a movie, and violence is there,” Tanay told Psychiatric Times. “Reality is distorted. If you live in a fictional world, then the fictional world becomes your reality.”

The average American watches nearly 5 hours of video each day, 98% of which is watched on a traditional television set, according to Nielsen Company. Nearly two-thirds of TV programs contain some physical violence. Most self-involving video games contain some violent content, even those for children.

... If you manufacture guns, you don’t need to advertise, because it is done by our entertainment industry.

Lets not forget too other factors may be involved such as legal drugs.

healthland.time.com/2011/01/07/top-ten-legal-drugs-linked-to-violence/

But lets abolish the NRA. :rolls:

[Skybird]

I'd say more like you did not understand the answers.
If you expect me to quote you and then answer?
Not gonna happen.

Look at it this way.
Say the U.S.A. claimed that West Germany was a new State of the U.S.A. at the end of WWII.
How would you react to the Laws of the U.S.A.?

I try to understand what happened before WWII in Germany and after.
But I'd never speak out and say what you all should do today. It's not my place, not my fight, not my right.
And I mean that with all due respect.

It's so easy to sit in our homes and put our personal perspectives on things and proclaim that we have the answers!
Guess what? I don't work that way! Never has. Never will!



For a delicious sweet semolina pudding in several variations, bring milk to boil but do not burn it. Melt a bit of butter in it, then stir in semolina and simmer for 5-7 minmutes at medium to low temperature. Add some vanilla sugar, whip the white of two eggs, and also stir it in. Serve with either sugar and cinnamon, or roasted plums and roasted butter and sugar and cinnamon, or sugar and cacao.

[Platapus]

“You turn on the television, and violence is there. You go to a movie, and violence is there,” Tanay told Psychiatric Times. “Reality is distorted. If you live in a fictional world, then the fictional world becomes your reality.”



When was the last time an action movie had a protagonist who did not resort to violence to solve the plot's problems? Perhaps what we need is a little balance in our TV/movies and start showing protagonists solving problems without resorting to violence. We can still have the antagonists use violence in order to keep the action back in action movies.

Not saying abolish violence in the movies, but perhaps a little more balance and less glamorizing of violence might help. Could not hurt.

[Jeff-Groves]

For a delicious sweet semolina pudding in several variations, bring milk to boil but do not burn it. Melt a bit of butter in it, then stir in semolina and simmer for 5-7 minmutes at medium to low temperature. Add some vanilla sugar, whip the white of two eggs, and also stir it in. Serve with either sugar and cinnamon, or roasted plums and roasted butter and sugar and cinnamon, or sugar and cacao.

Nice answer to a serious question.
Tells me everything I need to know.
If the question does not suit you? You want to play it off as if you are above the question.
Spout your nonsense as much as you please. Thank God I don't live near you!

[u crank]

Not saying abolish violence in the movies, but perhaps a little more balance and less glamorizing of violence might help. Could not hurt.

We need more MacGyvers. Non violent problem solving. :up:

[Rockstar]

Ever see John Wick? I have no doubts this is how the mentally unstable see themselves.

[Skybird]

Nice answer to a serious question.
Tells me everything I need to know.
If the question does not suit you? You want to play it off as if you are above the question.
Spout your nonsense as much as you please. Thank God I don't live near you!
A little strawberry sauce also is very nice with this recipe, especially when the pudding is quite stiff. In this case I would increase the amount of vanilla, because vanilla and strawberry is a great combo.

But it seems somebody here does not like getting served the dish he has chosen. Why has he chosen it then...

[Skybird]

Ever see John Wick? I have no doubts this is how the mentally unstable see themselves.
Hehe, never get between a man and his dog...:D

[Rockstar]

Yep, pretty much sums up the entire plot. :03:

[Sean C]

We need more MacGyvers. Non violent problem solving. :up:

You took the words right out of my mouth. :D

As for these...

"military-grade semiautomatic rifles"

...keep in mind that a civilian AR-15 is a single shot .22 caliber rifle. Of course, the 5.56 round is much more powerful than a .22 LR. But, the more traditional hunting rounds, such as .30-06, .308, .338, .300, .270 & even .25-06 are at least as powerful as 5.56. Most variants are over twice as powerful. And there are plenty of other semi-auto hunting rifles on the market besides the AR platform.

Also, these rounds are usually all full metal jacket. On the other hand, hollow-point rounds, the type typically used in handguns, transfer much more energy to the target. This is by design ... the hollow-point rounds expand upon impact creating a much larger cavity whereas a FMJ will typically pass right through a target, carrying some leftover energy with it. Rounds such as the 5.56 FMJ were specifically chosen for military use because they are less likely to do horrific damage to an enemy combatant.

IOW, an AR-15 is far from the most deadly gun a shooter could use. Sure, they might be able to get a lot of shots off. But, the chances of those shots being fatal are less than with many other rounds. Terms such as "military-grade" and "assault rifle" are [intentionally] misleading. We could ban all "assault rifles" and possibly do more harm than good.

[u crank]

Searching for answers. One mans opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci7iM7c3VB4

[Catfish]

^ Jordan Peterson, not bad :hmmm:
And not a discussion about calibre.. :)
Nihilistic and desperate. I believe there is a lot of truth in what he said. Without perspective, feeling put down all the time and having no "valve" – while the letter is being explained as to see a meaning in life, a purpose, care for one's family etc. leads to a feeling of having no chance, and further isolation, and to radicalisation.

I thought how much this kind of "lack of personal future" can also be found in most terrorists (while some may argue school shooters are just that, but..).
Now i can understand how this feel of insult and being despised while living in an environment that has been destroyed by the very nations who claim to bring freedom and all that.. so this may also be true in our western societies, for the same (felt) reasons.

Also some truth in that the media, publishing the names of the school shooters longing for notoriety, is not helpful.

edit: i just realized how wrong this interview is titled..
"America's men in decline"
"Left says Toxic masculinity is the reason for school shooting"
while Peterson says NOTHING of it! On the contrary!
Is this a "Fox news thing"? :doh:

[Onkel Neal]

Ban boys!

[Skybird]

...keep in mind that a civilian AR-15 is a single shot .22 caliber rifle. Of course, the 5.56 round is much more powerful than a .22 LR. But, the more traditional hunting rounds, such as .30-06, .308, .338, .300, .270 & even .25-06 are at least as powerful as 5.56. Most variants are over twice as powerful. And there are plenty of other semi-auto hunting rifles on the market besides the AR platform.

Also, these rounds are usually all full metal jacket. On the other hand, hollow-point rounds, the type typically used in handguns, transfer much more energy to the target. This is by design ... the hollow-point rounds expand upon impact creating a much larger cavity whereas a FMJ will typically pass right through a target, carrying some leftover energy with it. Rounds such as the 5.56 FMJ were specifically chosen for military use because they are less likely to do horrific damage to an enemy combatant.

IOW, an AR-15 is far from the most deadly gun a shooter could use. Sure, they might be able to get a lot of shots off. But, the chances of those shots being fatal are less than with many other rounds. Terms such as "military-grade" and "assault rifle" are [intentionally] misleading. We could ban all "assault rifles" and possibly do more harm than good.
Okay, I kept these details in mind. Fifteen minutes later I still cannot see the shot victims raising from the dead. Seems it doesn't work.

BTW, since I was so about culture and fetish for firearms and violence, the AR-15 by its looks is a very militaristic looking rifle, it definitely mimics the military's optical styling, does not compare to the looks of a classic hunting rifle. Elder local Ibex hunters in the Alps I know to take often just one or two rounds with them, for the one or two animals they plan to shoot and harvest for sure - I wonder what kind of meat hunting is done with magaziones of 10, 20 rounds? Sounds as if somebody plans to spray bullets all across the place. In the Alps, such amateurs injure animals often, shot them in a place where they cannot be harvetsed easily, and so forget about them and let them come to a long, miserable death. What hunter needs a truckload of ammunitions? A bad hunter - or Superman as his buddy carrying all the dead animals for him.

From the moment on when several years back I saw the first photography of such a AR-15 rifle I am convinced that the looks is a primary argument for its popularity, even if its owners will give plenty of reasons that are different. People are not rational. People are rationalising.

And finally, the civilian or sport-optimized variants with greater accuracy of the AR-15 come with callibres of .223 - and 5.56x45 and 9mm. In other words: the same callibres like the military versions. Wikipedia says there even is a civil sporter carbine 7.62x39

.22 and .223/.222 are different callibres.

Two more minutes, and they still lie still in their graves. Somehow I do this wrong, I fear. Maybe because this is all meaningless academic exercise.:hmmm:

[Catfish]

Ban boys!

:haha:

But i fear this is what most people will think, if they did not see the whole interview :yep:

By me: edit: i just realized how wrong this interview is titled (by Fox News)..
"America's men in decline"
"Left says Toxic masculinity is the reason for school shooting"
while Peterson says NOTHING of it! On the contrary!

[Skybird]

Ban boys!
No, ban masculine/manly boys!

The others can be feminised. Gender is free choice, isn't it...

[Sean C]

the civilian or sport-optimized variants with greater accuracy of the AR-15 come with callibres of .223 - and 5.56x45 and 9mm. In other words: the same callibres like the military versions. Wikipedia says there even is a civil sporter carbine 7.62x39

.22 and .223/.222 are different callibres.

Yeah ... I mentioned that. Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote. Besides, the difference between the 5.56 and .22 rounds has less to do with caliber (0.02 mm difference) and more to do with cartridge size and bullet weight.

...the AR-15 by its looks is a very militaristic looking rifle, it definitely mimics the military's optical styling, does not compare to the looks of a classic hunting rifle. [...] I wonder what kind of meat hunting is done with magaziones of 10, 20 rounds? Sounds as if somebody plans to spray bullets all across the place. [...] What hunter needs a truckload of ammunitions?

None of this is even relevant. The Second Amendment has nothing to do with hunting. The only reason I even mentioned the subject is because you brought it up. The founders of this country intended for the people to be able to protect their own freedom from whatever threat, external or internal. It wouldn't make much sense for a militia to use bolt action rifles and to only carry two bullets with them. The idea is to give citizens access to weapons which could be used to defeat our own government, should it become uncontrollable and aggressive. Not that we'd ever want to get to that point. The fact that it's possible is supposed to be a deterrent. Our government is supposed to be subservient to us, not the other way around. I'm sure the founders wanted to prevent future generations from having to do what they did.

Besides that, the problem in this country has little to nothing to do with guns. You even began to realize that, yourself:

To some degree I would go with those saying the weapon itself is not so much the problem, but the mind commanding it. [...] in Switzerland for exmaple this rate is also above the average in Western states, due to their militia system many households have assault rifles at home. But why is the suicide rate in which these get used still I think six times lower than in the US?

Maybe because this is all meaningless academic exercise.

I think it is for the most part. The Second Amendment isn't going away anytime soon ... and it shouldn't. But as long as that's the only thing that people can focus on, I doubt the real problem will be addressed.

Okay, I kept these details in mind. Fifteen minutes later I still cannot see the shot victims raising from the dead. Seems it doesn't work.

Really? Trolling comments like this are why I can't even take you seriously.

[u crank]

The Second Amendment isn't going away anytime soon ... and it shouldn't. But as long as that's the only thing that people can focus on, I doubt the real problem will be addressed.


So true. This entire exercise has dwelt on guns and the NRA while ignoring all the other factors. Police and FBI response, school safety, and the mental and the physiological state of the killer.

On the evening of 14 July 2016 Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel killed 86 people and injured another 458 others in Nice France. He did it with a 19 tonne Renault Midlum cargo truck. Mass murderers do not require guns to kill people.

[Skybird]

As I indicated by linking to the Spiegel-aticle, the seocnd amendment is not only, in consequences, about staying armed against being opressed from above, but also about opressing those that are below you. Mind you, some of the founders were slkave-holders themselves. And as I have voiced in other discussions over the years, due to quotes from letters he wrote to friends in his time I am not at all convinced of that Lincoln was about freeing the slaves when he went to war with the South. It was about making the south paying for the overburdening debts of the North who had ruined his finances by pushing industrialization to too high speed. The slaves were a formidable propaganda thing to make the North rally around his course.

I did not bring the 2nd amendment up, btw, not in this thread.

The reality people live in, is subjective, and not rational but rationalised reality. Perception of it gets bend, tuned, chnaged and altered untoil any cognitive dissoance between what one want sot see and what one does see in reality, has disappared enough to give back peace of mind and reassured heart. This is what is demonstrated in extremis whenever talk comes to weapons and their abuse in shooting events in the US. It ha s been like this before in many ages, places, and cultures, especially with elites of societies and subgroups of societies dealing with fighting and war, military and serving as warrior themselves. From privileges come conservatism to defend them, even if the writing was on the wall that times had chnaged, the time sof the cavalry was over, and black powder beats polished plate armour. Neal said he found the Spiegel article so leftist or anti-American that he refused to read it. But I say: read it again and try to understand what the authors really aim at. It is not just cheap anti-Americanism, that is nonsense. Quiote some of what it says, imo is historically if not true then at least a potentially very important correlation that cannot be just ignored for the only reason of the conclusions being not welcomed.

Many discussions after shotting incidents end up in discussing tehcnical details that in the end are not really any relevant. Laws. Callibres. Its all just a welcomed opprutnity for some to distract attention and diverting away formt he fact that once again such an event has taken place.

I tell everybody, more psychological tests for rifle customers will not do anything. More officers will not do anything. More trianign lessons will not do anything. The problem is the cultural climate in which the symptom that shooting events are time and again shows up, indicating that there is a profound, inherent problem in this special one society itself. Its self-definition and self-understanding, as well as the inner contradictions in its idealised construction. And that was where Moore was trying to look at in Bowling for Columbine. And nthat was what many did not forgive him, calling him a Nestbeschmutzer (somebody fouling his own nest). I do not talk about his other movies, or the man himself, just this one film: and I think he had it spot on.

Its a far greater context, and I see no real solution to the issue as long as the masses do not raise and chase lobbyists and politicians trying to prevent any bettering out of offices, out of cities, and into the ocean. Personnel comes and goes. The system stays and makes saure that nothing really changes.

And that is where the axe must aim at. (In all the Western world, btw).

^ Will not happen. And so it will be continuing erosion of the fundaments, and collapse. To delay the final end, force and oppression will be used. And that is what we will get, its already happening, and shows itself in more and more shameless openness. That is why I am so completely pessimistic for the medium- to longterm future. Europe most likely will fall before America, but America will follow with a delay of 50-100 years or so (if so long), and most of the other cultural spheres as well. The order in which they fall, is not really important.

I stray off, sorry. Bu you see, when I said earlier I think these shooting incident issues cannot be causally targetted and ruled out by laws and simple measures, but are embedded in a much wider, deeper-rooting cultural context, I am meaning that very serious. An additonal officer here, a new law there, more training lessons for rifle owners - it will make no difference.

[Skybird]

So true. This entire exercise has dwelt on guns and the NRA while ignoring all the other factors. Police and FBI response, school safety, and the mental and the physiological state of the killer.
Details of the single event, that mean nothing for the general picture. There are handguns and rifles in other countries, and there are mentally instabile people in other countries. Why is the Us reocrd holder in such shooting incidents nevertheless, why is it happening there so frequently? This you cannot answer by just looking at the cosmetical details on the surface of the individual event. And thats why I say: culture. Mentality. General cultural climate. Or as Moore said: a dominant collective feeling of fear, paranoia. A fixiation on violence. Heck, compared to other Western polices, even the US police looks, is equipped and often behaves like a damn military. Violence is an omnipresent fetish.

On the evening of 14 July 2016 Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel killed 86 people and injured another 458 others in Nice France. He did it with a 19 tonne Renault Midlum cargo truck. Mass murderers do not require guns to kill people.Does not compare. A religiously motivated Islamic terrorist and a non-Islamic school shooter with no religious motives at all - it does not compare.

[Rockstar]

You're right Skybird I don't think more laws, training, warm and fuzzy talks, political activism will make any difference. There are too way too many variables i.e. mentally deviant people in this world who every day take advantage of freedoms you and I cherish.

Some will kill in the name of their religion others because they're out of their ever lovin' minds. They will take up arms with what ever is convenient. Acid, firearms, vehicles, swords, poison, dirty bombs whatever comes to their sick minds. Its the world we live. However, there are also very definite limits to just how much can be controlled and protecting everybody from everything is simply not an option.


Wish we here at Subsim could solve all the worlds ills and stop violent crime. But we cant. All an old geezer like yourself can do is set a good example for others to follow. :)

[u crank]

Does not compare. A religiously motivated Islamic terrorist and a non-Islamic school shooter with no religious motives at all - it does not compare.

I beg to differ. Take all the guns away and this is what you will get. The motive is irrelevant to the dead.

Semi automatic weapons have been around for almost 100 years. Mass school shootings have not. There is another factor at play.

[Skybird]

How many school and campus massacres there have been where a truck or bus was used?

As long as you do not wish to declare religious motives to be a sign of mental derangement (if I would say that, I would get crucified again...), an amok run by a mentally ill or instabile nuthead, and a relgiuously motvated djihadist do not compare in motivation. Lets not compare apples with oranges

Also, there is a strong correlation between availability/private possession of firearms, and male suicides committed by firearms. In Switzerland, where many households have assault rifles and other firearms due to the Swiss militia system, the rate stands out from all other european nations' standards. But it gets topped by severla factors by the American numbers. In standardized numbers, I seem to recall that in switzerland 2-3 times as many males use firearms tro commit suicide, than in other European countries, but in America, six times as many males use firearms for suicide than in Switzerland. I tell by memory, basing on numbers I recall from over 20 years ago.

I believe I read something similiar - to Switzerland - in trend about Finland, but I am not certain, and I have no interest to google this out.

Easy availability of firearms seems to be an attractor to raise male suicide rates in general. We do not only talk of shares of firearms used amongst all suicides there have been , but total suicide numbers being raised.

Weapons are a male attractor in general, encoded probably over thousands of years in which weapons played - and play - a major role for protection, hunting, waging war - and equalizing chances or gainign superior chances in all three cases. The difference is that males in Europe tend to dispise weapons to a wider degree nowadays than it seems to be the case in America. A look at why that is so, may be worthwhile.

I recall that in 1972 we were in holidays in Bavaria, I was 5 and it was football world championship. I was told by the grown-ups that in the house neighbouring the Alm hotel where we were, 2 or 3 km away, some man had shot himself in his head because right before the TV broadcast of a German match his TV broke down. They young boy that I was was was told all this, because I asked about my grandfather who for a long time could not stop laughing. :shucks: Well. It pays off to always have a huntign rifle at hand. I assume he was a prepper. :D

[vienna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8Umj580ls0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV39K_uHae8



Stephen Colbert Nails The NRA’s Complete Hypocrisy In A Single Sentence --

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/stephen-colbert-trump-guns_us_5a94c816e4b02cb368c4fadb?ncid=edlinkushpmg 00000313



I’m surprised the NRA was affiliated with car rental companies at all, considering Hertz and Avis enforce tyrannical rules like “age restrictions” and “having a license.”
— Stephen Colbert (@StephenAtHome) February 27, 2018 (https://twitter.com/StephenAtHome/status/968321458173825024?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)









<O>

[Armistead]

How many school and campus massacres there have been where a truck or bus was used?

As long as you do not wish to declare religious motives to be a sign of mental derangement (if I would say that, I would get crucified again...), an amok run by a mentally ill or instabile nuthead, and a relgiuously motvated djihadist do not compare in motivation. Lets not compare apples with oranges

Also, there is a strong correlation between availability/private possession of firearms, and male suicides committed by firearms. In Switzerland, where many households have assault rifles and other firearms due to the Swiss militia system, the rate stands out from all other european nations' standards. But it gets topped by severla factors by the American numbers. In standardized numbers, I seem to recall that in switzerland 2-3 times as many males use firearms tro commit suicide, than in other European countries, but in America, six times as many males use firearms for suicide than in Switzerland. I tell by memory, basing on numbers I recall from over 20 years ago.

I believe I read something similiar - to Switzerland - in trend about Finland, but I am not certain, and I have no interest to google this out.

Easy availability of firearms seems to be an attractor to raise male suicide rates in general. We do not only talk of shares of firearms used amongst all suicides there have been , but total suicide numbers being raised.

Weapons are a male attractor in general, encoded probably over thousands of years in which weapons played - and play - a major role for protection, hunting, waging war - and equalizing chances or gainign superior chances in all three cases. The difference is that males in Europe tend to dispise weapons to a wider degree nowadays than it seems to be the case in America. A look at why that is so, may be worthwhile.

I recall that in 1972 we were in holidays in Bavaria, I was 5 and it was football world championship. I was told by the grown-ups that in the house neighbouring the Alm hotel where we were, 2 or 3 km away, some man had shot himself in his head because right before the TV broadcast of a German match his TV broke down. They young boy that I was was was told all this, because I asked about my grandfather who for a long time could not stop laughing. :shucks: Well. It pays off to always have a huntign rifle at hand. I assume he was a prepper. :D

Well, the preferred method in the UK before strict gun laws was with a gun, now hanging is number 1, but don't the gun numbers look so much better and the rate is basically the same.

[Armistead]

We have a mass shooting of 2 or more about every year or two. We have about 50 million kids in school, so it's figuring the 1-2 shooters out of 50 million, not good odds. Most our current gun laws aren't enforced, 38 states don't report 70% of their convictions to the database due to cost, issues, etc., yet the answer is an even bigger more expanded system. It's just feel good legislation. Ban the AR, someone will use a few handguns, as the Va Tech shooter did killing 32. I don't see the platform mattering as much as the dynamics, planning, etc., the AR I think is more a copycat thing.

[Rockstar]

Almost forgot, mailing hazardous materials via postal service is always an alternative for the deviant mind as well.


http://wjla.com/news/local/officials-hazmat-incident-reported-at-joint-base-myer-henderson-hall-in-arlington

[Jeff-Groves]

A little strawberry sauce also is very nice with this recipe, especially when the pudding is quite stiff. In this case I would increase the amount of vanilla, because vanilla and strawberry is a great combo.

But it seems somebody here does not like getting served the dish he has chosen. Why has he chosen it then...

That's funny crap.
Glad to see You are so high and mighty and place yourself above all us mere mortals.

Your wisdom should have us all bowing down before your throne.
All hail Skybird! The professor of the wisdom that all should seek!
:har:

[Onkel Neal]

Come on, Jeff. Let's not make this about each other.

[August]

Almost forgot, mailing hazardous materials via postal service is always an alternative for the deviant mind as well.


http://wjla.com/news/local/officials-hazmat-incident-reported-at-joint-base-myer-henderson-hall-in-arlington


Another case of copy cat mayhem I think. Each incident seems to increase the likelihood it will be used again.

[Aktungbby]

Almost forgot, mailing hazardous materials via postal service is always an alternative for the deviant mind as well.


YA THINK! https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Theodore_Kaczynski.jpg/220px-Theodore_Kaczynski.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Theodore_Kaczynski.jpg) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski)

[August]

YA THINK! https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Theodore_Kaczynski.jpg/220px-Theodore_Kaczynski.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Theodore_Kaczynski.jpg) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski)


He mailed bombs though. That takes a bit more expertise than slipping a little unidentified white powder into an envelope. The 2001 anthrax attacks generated a continuing wave of fake copy cat attacks over the years because the media made darn sure that everyone knew how easy it was to do and how difficult it was to be caught.

[Mr Quatro]

I was 19 once and the government gave me a job and a 45 caliber gun with a holster to do that job :yep:

https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28276567_1875948815779624_7799299282239887900_n.pn g?oh=db9073ead80f03bba4f6e6fa54faf14f&oe=5B492D67

[vienna]

I said it before the 2016 Election, I said it after the election, and I'm saying it again: for all the 2nd Amendment people who think Trump is going to be their Great Defender, if push comes to shove and Trump needs to save his political ass, he will throw the 2A under the bus:


President Trump keeps lawmakers guessing at gun meeting --

https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-keeps-lawmakers-guessing-gun-meeting-234223042.html




...

Just take the guns

Trump repeatedly suggested guns just be taken from citizens if officials felt they should, even if Americans had not violated any laws.

“The police saw that he was a problem, they didn’t take any guns away,” said Trump about the Parkland shooter. “Now that could have been policing, but they should have taken them away anyway, whether they had the right or not.”

Later in the meeting, Vice President Pence attempted to walk those comments back, explaining the process of how states could take steps to confiscate guns from dangerous individuals that would go through the courts and observe due process. He was interrupted by his boss.

“Or Mike, take the firearms first and then go to court,” Trump interjected. “That’s another system.”

“Take the guns first, go through due process second,” the president added.

...

Gee, Donny, nice of you to actually come up with an actual idea, but, you know, there's that nagging little thing called the 2nd Amendment, not to mention a few other Amendments your idea violates...

And, to prove just how much Trump knows about the gun issue (or any other issue, for that matter), there's this gem:



...

Black market or local gun store

At the end of the meeting, Trump appeared to not understand that AR-15 assault rifles are widely available for purchase in retail stores. Feinstein closed by asking what the nation could do with “weapons of war.” Trump said it was a black-market issue.

“The problem, Dianne,” said Trump, “is that these aren’t where you walk into a store and buy them.”

“Oh no,” replied Feinstein. “You can go into a store and you can buy an AR-15.”

“You can,” repeated Trump.

“You can buy a TEC-9, you can buy all these weapons,” said Feinstein.

Trump then said it was an issue to be solved by Manchin, Toomey and the rest of the group when they wrote the bill.

...


When Dianne Feinstein knows more about guns that you do, you're pretty pathetic...










<O>

[Armistead]

Has anyone heard the or know the fine print of private sales requiring a background check any lawmakers are pushing, regarding gifting, inheritance? For instance, my brother buys me a gun for my birthday....

[Rockstar]

I know the Great State of Maryland considers hand guns a regulated fire arm. They can not be gifted and I think that goes for private sales too nor can they be purchased on behalf of someone else. On the other hand most rifles and shotguns are not regulated in that way. Though when I purchased a Remington Model 870 for the wife the guy behind the counter at the sporting goods store I got it from warned me I couldn't gift it. I just smiled at'em, and said OK. Last gun show I went to was in South Carolina in 2001. I purchased a nice pre-import C&R Venezuelan Navy 7mm FN-49. Fairly easy thing to do, in fact maybe too easy. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more done about getting background checks at shows.

As far as POTUS thoughts on regulations go: "He called for a comprehensive gun control legislation that would expand background checks to weapons purchased at gun shows and on the internet, keep guns from mentally ill people, secure schools and restrict gun sales from some young adults. He even suggested a conversation on an assault weapons ban."

Its a good start but again he is not the dictator for life, so we'll see. An assault weapon ban is stupid as it goes after a weapons looks not their function. For instance the last one classified an AR-15 as one but not my FN-49 or K-43. The ban made no sense its purpose was simple to make the politicians look good. Its been said the last ban backfired on them so its unlikely we'll see another.

[Armistead]

Yea, currently 38 states don't report about 70% of their convictions, getting the NRA claims 80 plus % and numerous sanctuary cities don't report criminal illegals, just as we see the issue with the Oakland mayor, in fact, I don't believe states are required to report to the national database. Not sure how we do a working database if states are required to do it, which will take funding and of course criminal action against politicians that don't enforce it willingly as in Oakland.

I think handguns are strictly regulated by most states by dealers. Here in NC and about 20 other states a minor can buy a long gun from a private person on their own, which would include the AR in most states that allow it. Obvious, there's no gun show loophole, it's just private sales which you see a lot of at gun shows, flea markets, online, etc.., but I've never had a dealer ask if I was gifting, like if I got my 20 year old son a gun, would he be required to do a check before he could take it as a gift....haha, no more hiding that as a xmas gift..

[Commander Wallace]

An interesting by line.



Concealed-carry permit holder flips the script, shoots and kills alleged carjacker

A man in Wisconsin shot another man named Carlos Martin after he attempted a car jacking. Both men were armed but the shooter protecting himself had a concealed gun carry license.


https://www.yahoo.com/gma/concealed-carry-permit-holder-flips-script-shoots-kills-162203257--abc-news-topstories.html

[Dowly]

I said it before the 2016 Election, I said it after the election, and I'm saying it again: for all the 2nd Amendment people who think Trump is going to be their Great Defender, if push comes to shove and Trump needs to save his political ass, he will through the 2A under the bus:


President Trump keeps lawmakers guessing at gun meeting --

https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-keeps-lawmakers-guessing-gun-meeting-234223042.html
The supporters of President Bedburgers must be so confused right now trying to figure out which side of the argument they're supposed to be on. :O:

[Rockstar]

Maybe the Shifff Minion and his sycophant sidekick could find a forum that actually has Trump minions to troll. Psychologically and behaviorally you're exactly alike. The only noticeable difference really is you are polar opposites ideologically. They are out there you know, I just don't think you'll find them here. Here you guys are like watching some crazy dude having a contentious argument with a brick wall.

[Mr Quatro]

Wacko's are even in the classrooms as teachers ...
so much for arming teachers :o

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/01/georgia-teacher-who-fired-gun-in-classroom-previously-told-police-hired-hitmen-report-says.html

A Georgia high school teacher who fired a gun in a classroom Wednesday previously told police he hired two friends to kill someone on his behalf, a report said.

Jesse Randall Davidson, 53, allegedly fired at least one shot inside a Dalton High School classroom, then barricaded himself inside until he surrendered to police. Davidson, a social studies teacher, is known as the “radio voice” during the school’s football and basketball games because of his play-by-lay announcements,

[Platapus]

Wacko's are even in the classrooms as teachers ...
so much for arming teachers :o

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/01/georgia-teacher-who-fired-gun-in-classroom-previously-told-police-hired-hitmen-report-says.html


Yikes, that is one scary guy!:o

[Rockstar]

Whiskey tango foxtrot over, are you kidding me? Makes me think about the title of a book I once read: Makes Me Wanna Holler!
https://www.vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/AP18059623309074-725x539.jpg

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/03/01/with-crowns-on-their-heads-and-ar-15s-in-their-arms-couples-exchange-vows-in-pro-gun-church/?utm_term=.8121e783b6fb



disclaimer: the book by Nathan McCall has absolutely nothing to do with the WP articles subject matter. Its just things like this remind me of the title.

[vienna]

Maybe the Shifff Minion and his sycophant sidekick could find a forum that actually has Trump minions to troll. Psychologically and behaviorally you're exactly alike. The only noticeable difference really is you are polar opposites ideologically. They are out there you know, I just don't think you'll find them here. Here you guys are like watching some crazy dude having a contentious argument with a brick wall.

Looks like a nerve has been touched...

You know, instead of continually making personal attacks against other forum member when their views don't agree with yours and are actually making cogent arguments, and you find them so distressing, there is the option to exclude those posts from those individuals by changing your settings. That's what I would do if I were as worked up as you seem to be...

I'm sure you will respond with another one of your 'drive-by', 'fortune cookie' style, and length, responses... :D










<O>

[Rockstar]

Nerves? Not in the slightest. Just observation and recommendation in general that minions need each other to justify their own existence. But you don't have to do a dang thing. Keep right on doing what your doing if you want, I wont lose any sleep over it.

[vienna]

:har:










<O>

[Dowly]

Maybe the Shifff Minion and his sycophant sidekick could find a forum that actually has Trump minions to troll. Psychologically and behaviorally you're exactly alike. The only noticeable difference really is you are polar opposites ideologically. They are out there you know, I just don't think you'll find them here. Here you guys are like watching some crazy dude having a contentious argument with a brick wall.
Quoted for prosperity posterity.

[Jimbuna]

Cool heads everyone if you'd be so kind.

[Rockstar]

Cool heads everyone if you'd be so kind.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NhRzFERghDg/UJKnp6IEMoI/AAAAAAAAAOk/W6FRpkPOep8/s400/445_477103612334889_1927798015_n.jpg


:salute: :)

[Onkel Neal]

"She was a nice person," her brother said.

"I mean maybe not today, but she never hurt any creature."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/family-alleged-youtube-shooter-warned-police/story?id=54224487

The latest nutjob on a shooting spree. This time a woman, possibly, and even a vegan. Lookout world.

https://s.abcnews.com/images/US/180404_abc_yt_brother1_4x3_992.jpg

[MaDef]

not surprising, California is full of fruits,nuts & flakes.

[Buddahaid]

Unlike some other states that are just full of horses asses.

[Onkel Neal]

Yeah, you have to wonder about these left wing types who are shrieking about all the PC agenda items, including animal cruelty, human rights, gun control. And then they go out on a shooting spree.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/04/03/youtube-shooters-father-says-she-was-angry-at-company/

[em2nought]

Yeah, you have to wonder about these left wing types who are shrieking about all the PC agenda items, including animal cruelty, human rights, gun control. And then they go out on a shooting spree.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/04/03/youtube-shooters-father-says-she-was-angry-at-company/

I think it's a two for the price of one thing. Dealing a blow against the 2nd amendment, and a blow against the people who've triggered your "special" self with one "shot" as it were. Maybe a three for the price of one because you get to do it while your perceived Antichrist is President too. :hmmm: Knowing that the fake news is going to blame him somehow. :har:

[l02turner]

Sorry I am coming to this thread late (and by accident) I wanted to comment on a few things. First, the gun used was a shotgun, not normally described as a "Assault Rifle" which is an ambiguous term anyway.
2nd, none of the billionaires, corporations, celebrities, politicians, etc who jump immediately to calling for the banning of all guns as the only answer, have contributed to hardening the schools. There is only one group (the NRA) who are offering a comprehensive solution (free of charge to the schools btw) called "NRA School Shield" which paid for by contributions from NRA members, donors and foundations. School Shield consists of various components such as Preparedness, Prevention, Mitigation and Response among other things. But this isn't the place to go into the program. If interested, the NRA website will provide more info.
As far as the US seeking to ban guns, please be aware that any law attempting to do this will be ignored by those who need to be disarmed the most; Criminals. Criminals by definition do not obey laws and passing another anti-gun bill (we already have over 22,000 laws limiting the purchase & use of guns) only disarms those who the gun defends the best. Think of it this way, this isn't about guns as much as it is about self defense, a concept that goes back to when there were 2 humans and one was determined to do the other harm. It is a God given right to defend ourselves IMO and a gun allows those who are is too weak, outnumbered, etc to defend against those who wish to do them harm. For instance, I am disabled and spend much of my time in a wheelchair or using a walker to get around. I am what some might consider an "Easy Target". Well, this Target will not go easily. I train weekly at the range, know how to analyze a potential threat and will shoot if need be to stop an assault on me, my family or friends.
'nuff said...
As far as the shooter that had known mental and other problems, he had been identified to the police and FBI previously as someone who would likely shoot up the school in the near future and yet no one did enough to stop him. That's the sad part.
You are 100% correct that our kids must learn how to defend against such threats as they face today, but it's better than telling them to hide under a desk and hope they won't get shot. BTW, when I was in elem school we were taught how to prepare for a nuclear attack using tactics that would have helped little if at all. I guess preparing for a disaster is something we have to accept? :hmmm:
BTW, someone asked why Assault Rifles are sold? Because the term Assault Rifle is a term used by those wishing to ban all guns use to describe a semi-automatic rifle or shotgun. Yes, they do want to ban ALL guns, assault rifles are just the start. Semi autos have been in use since the early 20th Century. I assume you are talking about an AR15? It's a Semi auto just like the shotgun my grandfather passed down. And the AR is the most popular rifle in use today. It has been sold in the millions and I wish the background system were perfect but it's not, I wish we could prevent those with mental problems from obtaining firearms but it's not and won't be because of security issues surrounding the release of everyone's health records. But more govt access into the lives of the innocent isn't the answer.
Also, there are school shootings in other parts of the world that go on today. And in those places where guns bans are in place, the criminals still have guns. Thankfully, as horrific as school shootings are, they are incredibly rare which I know is little comfort if one of your kids were killed...
LarryT

Looking at the reply's here, Catfish makes some good points. Maybe it's time to see how Germany, the U.K and others deal with things to keep their kids safe. It has been reported by the news media that along with fire drills, students now have armed intruder drills as well. It's a sad statement that along with learning algebra and chemistry, students must now learn how to survive in the face of crazed individuals who are armed and invading their school.

My question is why were the entry ways not secure ? There should be one or perhaps two entry points equipped with metal detectors and perhaps armed operators. Doors could also be equipped with remote locking mechanisms and have LEO personnel on speed dial. There is no way an armed individual with known disciplinary problems should have been able to gain access to that school.

In light of what Jim had said about the number of shootings and their prevalence, it's criminal negligence not to have safe guards like these and more in place to protect our kids. Especially considering how often this is happening now.

[Delgard]

Just 2 cents... European countries have a different culture about guns. It is their culture and we (United States) have a different one.

The American culture has always seen the personal need for guns; hunting, personal protection, defense against an unjust/illegal authority. That last one may be a doosie, but it is there.

What America had more of in the ages past was individual responsibility, parental responsibility, family responsibility and, even neighborly responsibility. Large parts of American society have lost the value of those responsibilities.

If something makes those responsibilities stronger, I am for it...even for myself.

Are there examples of some of those responsibilities and why? I'll start:

- Never to have unsecured weapons in the home. It can lead to someone getting hurt that the law-abiding responsible owner believes is illegal and morally wrong.

[l02turner]

Agree completely! BTW, the liberals are always going on about how we should respect and preserve other people cultures but I never hear anyone standing up for Our American Culture. Of course the left, the media, main stream news and Hollywood would never dream there is a American Culture worth preserving. :Kaleun_Salute:

[mapuc]

While pro-gunners and anti-gunners throw words, statistic and expert against each other….

Innocent civilians suffer

Markus

[STEED]

While pro-gunners and anti-gunners throw words, statistic and expert against each other….

Innocent civilians suffer

Markus


Jacksonville shooting: Several killed at video game tournament

Several people have been killed in a shooting at an entertainment complex in Jacksonville, Florida, police say.
The suspected gunman, a white male, was dead at the scene and no other suspects were being sought, the sheriff's office said.
An unspecified number of people were also wounded in the incident.
The shooting happened during a video game tournament being held at Jacksonville Landing, a large shopping, entertainment and dining complex.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45315970


:nope:

[Jimbuna]

https://i.imgur.com/8WEECeH.png

Very lucky.