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Rockstar
12-17-17, 06:17 PM
Its information like this which makes me raise the B.S. flag when I hear the global warming alarmists. And before they start squawking again just remember There is a measured increase in the rate of global warming related to the expansion of the internet and specifically the explosion in the World Wide Web. So please alarmists does all a favor and turnoff your internet connection and save the world.

“For over 15 years an inordinate proportion of government and corporate research grants have been awarded to universities for a single specific purpose: to prove human activities and the burning of fossil fuels are the main driving mechanisms causing global warming.
“Unfortunately agendas by strong arm politics and the suppression of contrary views have become the primary tools used to manipulate the media, local and state governments (and in turn the general public) into believing what they want us to believe.”
“The politically driven United Nations IPCC and United States global warming ruse will likely end up being one of the greatest scandals of the 21st century.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=752&v=2WaU_NJfKOE

An updated list of at excuses for the 18-26 year statistically significant ‘pause’ in global warming, including recent scientific papers, media quotes, blogs, and related debunkings.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/climate-fail-files/list-of-excuses-for-the-pause-in-global-warming/

em2nought
12-17-17, 07:44 PM
Burn the heretic! :D

https://i.imgflip.com/pcvss.jpg

Catfish
12-18-17, 03:36 AM
Its information like this which makes me raise the B.S. flag when I hear the global warming alarmists.

And it is "information" coming from sources like that which i instantly ignore.
Conspiracy-Pseudoscience.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_Up_With_That%3F
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/watts-up-with-that/

Just another ape trying to prove his agenda and feed it to the apes.
"Watts Up With That? (or WUWT) is a blog promoting climate change denial that was created by Anthony Watts in 2006."
Some Breitbart quotes also present in this blog of Watts b.t.w.

Like with Foxy News or Breitbart they have an opinion, and are building their BS around it. Pseudo science constantly misleading readers, feeding the right-wing agenda in its lowest form.

It is not even right-wing, it is just helping big companies to get through with what they do.
The "joke" is that this works like in totalitarian systems. Some people like Bannon or this Watts are voluntarily spreading crap they think their dear leader will like. Anticipatory obedience. Of course you cannot rule out presidential orders, personal advantages or just their good old own prejudice and lacking education.

As a geologist i really had to laugh. "Oceans not eating the warmth" my donkey. Of course not. Nothing to do with it. This is desinformation.
This is not how science works. And if science does not support your denial, it is not "leftist" or "snowflake". It just is how it is.


Problem is as soon as you as a scientist try to honestly counter them with facts. Facts are boring. They mostly do not arouse feelings, or anger. People like Watts or Bannon can easily turn this into a sh!tstorm, laughing at you, because you are not so clever in rhetorics, and lies.

So here's good advice to scientists:
Do not try to "discuss" this with people like Watts or Bannon. They are not really open for a neutral discussion, it is all fake, they just want to blow all up and cause chaos.
You just give them credibility where they have none.
You give them a platform where they deserve none.
"They will pull you down to their level, then beat you with (populistic) experience."

Jimbuna
12-18-17, 06:07 AM
Whatever is the truth or the real reason for such far reaching changes will probably only be recognised when it is too late to rectify matters.

Catfish
12-18-17, 06:42 AM
Whatever is the truth or the real reason for such far reaching changes will probably only be recognised when it is too late to rectify matters.

^ I would agree, though scientists have warned since two decades at least, and been ignored. Germany, among other EU nations, has failed. The goals set could not be reached. When i think of what China, the US or Russia does, Europe is a drop in the bucket. But at least we tried. What we do, or fail to, has consequences.

I am being critical of some projects, of course. While inclusion imho is a good thing, this electro-mobility thing as it is being thought about right now is a dead end. The production of the energy being fed into the batteries is just being outsourced to a coal plant beyond the horizon, so you do not see it. The conduction loss, and loss while charging, will consume even more energy than cars being equipped with contemporary combustion engines.

Schroeder
12-18-17, 09:59 AM
Conspiracy-Pseudoscience.

It always is, each and every time. Why people are still buying that BS is beyond me.:/\\!!
It's probably wishful thinking.

Dowly
12-18-17, 01:01 PM
Its information like this which makes me raise the B.S. flag when I hear the global warming alarmists. And before they start squawking again just remember There is a measured increase in the rate of global warming related to the expansion of the internet and specifically the explosion in the World Wide Web. So please alarmists does all a favor and turnoff your internet connection and save the world.So, you do believe that actions of man are contributing to global warming? :)

Sailor Steve
12-18-17, 05:04 PM
I used to not believe the global-warming theories, and I still have questions, but when the 'deniers' include people like Lawrence Krauss and Neil DeGrasse Tyson I start to listen to them.

Gargamel
12-18-17, 05:33 PM
I used to not believe the global-warming theories, and I still have questions, but when the 'deniers' include people like Lawrence Krauss and Neil DeGrasse Tyson I start to listen to them.

Steve, You;ll have to provide some references for this, as I follow NGT fairly regularly, and everything I have ever heard him say is promoting man made climate change and the need for action to rectify this. Unless I am misreading your post.

But couple articles I just read to today....

http://www.iflscience.com/space/a-city-in-alaska-is-warming-so-fast-that-the-data-recorded-was-assumed-to-be-an-error/

TLDR: Data from certain weather stations were showing trends so outrageous that computer algorythms tossed it as erroneous data. Manual review of the data showed it to be accurate.

Can't find the link, read it on the BBC:
A lot of Olympic winter ski teams have been trouble finding adequate summer training grounds to practice on real snow. In the past alpine glaciers have provided good locations to practice, but now most of them have degraded to the point where they are becoming unusable.

Just like the tobacco companies of years past, Oil and gas companies are the ones pushing the denial theories. They have the most to profit from a steady climate theory. They know their supplies are limited, some of us will see demand crisis's within our lifetimes. Even the most conservative estimates limit affordable oil production to 75-100 years. They're just trying to get their money's worth now while the game is still good.

It just makes me wonder why people (other than oil/gas companies and those associated with them) choose to stick their head in the sand? If you're wrong, and we do nothing to prevent it, then we have basically ruined a good portion of civilization as we know it and destroyed many natural environments. If you're right, and we do nothing, then we haven't developed the necessary infrastructure to cope with the coming energy crisis.

Or we could do our best to limit the CO production caused by man, and hope to keep the augmented climate swing in check. We would also have made the changes needed to insure civilization continues progressing in a forward manner.

Even if you don't believe in climate change, you should still be in favor of making a change towards alternative, renewable power sources. I just don't see a win in the long run for the deniers on any front.

August
12-18-17, 09:50 PM
If man is indeed the cause of global warming then it's because of our population numbers that is driving it not what type of fuels we're using.

No carbon credit scheme, renewable energy initiative or any other government boondoggle is going to solve the problem as long as we continue to overpopulate the planet.

Dowly
12-19-17, 04:47 AM
If man is indeed the cause of global warming then it's because of our population numbers that is driving it not what type of fuels we're using.

No carbon credit scheme, renewable energy initiative or any other government boondoggle is going to solve the problem as long as we continue to overpopulate the planet.Of course the type of fuel matters... :doh:


I am also a bit puzzled as to what the graphs on WUWT are supposed to show. :hmmm:

The graph shown right at the top when you click Rockstar's link has the caption:
"RSS satellite data showing the 18 year ‘pause’ of global warming"

But that's not what it shows, does it? :doh:

The second graph is the first one under the 18-26 year statistically significant ‘pause’ in global warming (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/09/01/new-paper-on-the-pause-says-it-is-19-years-at-surface-and-16-26-years-at-the-lower-troposphere/) link.

Ok, again it is supposed to show a 19-year pause, but why not include the trend?

Perhaps because it would show no 'pause':
http://www.woodfortrees.org/graph/hadcrut4gl/from:1995/to:2014/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:1995/to:2014/trend
(Source (http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:1995/to:2014/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:1995/to:2014/trend))

The third graph is a the next one down which, again, is supposed to show a 'pause'.

Here's the actual graph (NOTE: Uses v04 dataset instead of v03_3, since it has been updated):
http://www.woodfortrees.org/graph/rss/from:1996.9/to:2014.6/plot/rss/from:1996.9/to:2014.6/trend
(Source (http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/rss/from:1996.9/to:2014.6/plot/rss/from:1996.9/to:2014.6/trend))

propbeanie
12-19-17, 10:16 AM
Plant more trees! They ~love~ carbon dioxide and other "poisons". Let 'em grow to maturity, then use 'em for construction and fuel. Plant MORE! recycle nature.

Catfish
12-19-17, 10:57 AM
Plant more trees! They ~love~ carbon dioxide and other "poisons". Let 'em grow to maturity, then use 'em for construction and fuel. Plant MORE! recycle nature.

You are not wrong, however all that man does is de-foresting for cattle range land, rain forest, middle America. Look at what China does, or Trump's recent plans to reduce national parks to 20 percent of their former size and let industry exploit it. I'm not optimistic. :(

Sailor Steve
12-19-17, 01:05 PM
Steve, You;ll have to provide some references for this, as I follow NGT fairly regularly, and everything I have ever heard him say is promoting man made climate change and the need for action to rectify this. Unless I am misreading your post.
No, you're right. I should have said "promoters". I've been in a bit of pain and having trouble concentrating this last week. No, I was a denier until I realized that some of the scientists I admire the most were firmly convinced that this is fact.

Sorry for the confusion. It was all on my part.

August
12-19-17, 01:22 PM
Of course the type of fuel matters... :doh:

It matters only because without it most of the 7 billion people on this planet would starve. Unless you fix the population problem first you will never be able to prevent them from continuing to use fossil fuels. Never. Because nobody is going to care about some ill defined future danger like global warming when their children's bellies are empty or they are freezing to death.

Get us down to say half our present global population and alternate fuels might have a chance of supporting the remainder but even then a big percentage of them will be living in the stone age.

Mr Quatro
12-19-17, 01:48 PM
Didn't we have a thread about cows causing the problem a little ways back?

http://timeforchange.org/are-cows-cause-of-global-warming-meat-methane-CO2


According to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) agriculture is responsible for 18% of the total release of greenhouse gases world-wide (this is more than the whole transportation sector).

Cattle-breeding is taking a major factor for these greenhouse gas emissions according to FAO. Says Henning Steinfeld, Chief of FAO's Livestock Information and Policy Branch and senior author of the report: "Livestock are one of the most significant contributors to today's most serious environmental problems. Urgent action is required to remedy the situation."

Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth's entire land surface, mostly permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the global arable land used to producing feed for livestock, the report notes. As forests are cleared to create new pastures, it is a major driver of deforestation, especially in Latin America where, for example, some 70 percent of former forests in the Amazon have been turned over to grazing.

vienna
12-19-17, 04:57 PM
It matters only because without it most of the 7 billion people on this planet would starve. Unless you fix the population problem first you will never be able to prevent them from continuing to use fossil fuels. Never. Because nobody is going to care about some ill defined future danger like global warming when their children's bellies are empty or they are freezing to death.

Get us down to say half our present global population and alternate fuels might have a chance of supporting the remainder but even then a big percentage of them will be living in the stone age.

Maybe August has a point here. Maybe we should implement something like this:

A Modest Proposal --

http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html

It is even very much conservative; it dates way back to 1729... :haha:







<O>

propbeanie
12-19-17, 05:10 PM
What was the proposal for the Scots? those troublemakers...

Gargamel
12-19-17, 07:01 PM
No, you're right. I should have said "promoters". I've been in a bit of pain and having trouble concentrating this last week. No, I was a denier until I realized that some of the scientists I admire the most were firmly convinced that this is fact.

Sorry for the confusion. It was all on my part.

I figured as much. I figured I'd give you a chance to clarify before I went all 'internet' on you :). Sorry bout the pain.

And I too had trouble coming up with a word to describe the opposite of climate change deniers.

"Well adjusted, intelligent, people who can read charts, listen to facts and figures, and can make up their own minds while not being led down the path of corporate greed" Just was too long to write out many times.

vienna
12-19-17, 07:06 PM
I figured as much. I figured I'd give you a chance to clarify before I went all 'internet' on you :). Sorry bout the pain.

And I too had trouble coming up with a word to describe the opposite of climate change deniers.

"Well adjusted, intelligent, people who can read charts, listen to facts and figures, and can make up their own minds while not being led down the path of corporate greed" Just was too long to write out many times.

How about shortening that to just "smart and right people" or maybe just "intelligent"?... :hmmm:






<O>

Gargamel
12-19-17, 07:10 PM
Get us down to say half our present global population and alternate fuels might have a chance of supporting the remainder but even then a big percentage of them will be living in the stone age.

That's a very fair point August.

As it stands, alternative fuel sources, aside from nuclear, are not developed enough to sustain the world as is. That's why as they become developed, we can start weening ourselves off the reliance of oil as a fuel source. Nuclear has it's own sorts of problems, practicality in small form, and political push back, but that's why research into sustainable fusion power is needed.

There will probably always be a market for petroleum and gas. Hell, if I had a '57 chevy or other collector type, I'd sure as hell make sure it had the v8 super charger, but I'm not going to be driving that on the road every day. But if I buy a new car for everyday use, I'd sure like it to be as clean running as possible, and as cheaply as possible.

Just like with any new technology, there will come a tipping point where the clean renewable energy sources will become more efficient and cheaper than the old.

Gargamel
12-19-17, 07:11 PM
How about shortening that to just "smart and right people" or maybe just "intelligent"?... :hmmm:






<O>

Wouldn't have been as poignant. :)

Mr Quatro
12-19-17, 07:52 PM
Hell, if I had a '57 chevy or other collector type, I'd sure as hell make sure it had the v8 super charger, but I'm not going to be driving that on the road every day.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3d/9b/da/3d9bdacb75e569ed4554264016a37c60.jpg

Gargamel
12-19-17, 09:12 PM
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3d/9b/da/3d9bdacb75e569ed4554264016a37c60.jpg
Yeah! That!

Dowly
12-20-17, 08:10 AM
It matters only because without it most of the 7 billion people on this planet would starve. Unless you fix the population problem first you will never be able to prevent them from continuing to use fossil fuels. Never. Because nobody is going to care about some ill defined future danger like global warming when their children's bellies are empty or they are freezing to death.

Get us down to say half our present global population and alternate fuels might have a chance of supporting the remainder but even then a big percentage of them will be living in the stone age.But who would be the one's to get rid of? Greenhouse gas emissions aren't evenly leveled across the 7 billion people nor is there a clear relation between population growth and higher GHG emissions, since it is the industrialized and rapidly industrializing nations that emit the most yet their population growth has slowed or is slowing.

It is more accurate to say that consumers, rather than people, cause climate change; there is enormous variation in greenhouse gas emissions between individuals with high consumption levels in developed nations with low fertility rates, and individuals with low or negligible consumption in poor nations with high fertility rates. In other words, climate change is driven more by consumer behaviour than simply by population number.

(Source (https://academic.oup.com/jpubhealth/article/32/2/150/1610588#23643428))

Catfish
12-20-17, 11:00 AM
But who would be the one's to get rid of? [..]

It's the immigrants!

Dowly
12-20-17, 11:43 AM
It's the immigrants!
God Damn Mongorians!

u crank
12-20-17, 12:07 PM
But who would be the one's to get rid of?

That's not a question that anybody could answer or do anything about. But, if everything that climate change proponents say is true (I'm not disputing them) then it is apparent that 'the ones' will be decided in a cruel and unavoidable way. There will be a reduction in the earths population, maybe a dramatic one. The simple fact is that the earths' population has grown faster than the technology to support it in a non environmentally damaging way has. One of the two variables will have to change, either by choice or by disaster. Don't like to be pessimistic but I think the latter will come first.

em2nought
12-20-17, 12:34 PM
But who would be the one's to get rid of?

I'd recommend the kill two birds with one stone option, but then one thread would permanently close. :03:

August
12-20-17, 12:45 PM
But who would be the one's to get rid of? Greenhouse gas emissions aren't evenly leveled across the 7 billion people nor is there a clear relation between population growth and higher GHG emissions, since it is the industrialized and rapidly industrializing nations that emit the most yet their population growth has slowed or is slowing.



(Source (https://academic.oup.com/jpubhealth/article/32/2/150/1610588#23643428))


Interesting link you posted, i will check it out in more detail tonight.
For now though show me a person living in a grass hut and i'll show you a would be consumer who would love to partake in the modern conveniences provided by fossil fuels. I'm sure you can find an exception or three to that but in general it's going to be difficult to convince developing nations that they can't have the quality of life that we have enjoyed in the industrialized west.

Dowly
12-20-17, 02:07 PM
I'm sure you can find an exception or three to that but in general it's going to be difficult to convince developing nations that they can't have the quality of life that we have enjoyed in the industrialized west.I agree, and no one's going to say to them they can't have nice things. Emissions from nations that are starting to get their industrialization off the ground is one big problem about this whole mess. Those nations don't have much to choose from other than fossil fuels, which is why e.g. the Paris Climate Agreement tries to get the well-off industrialized nations that can afford it and have the infrastructure to seek ways to balance total global emissions by weaning off of fossil fuels and put resources on developing better and cheaper renewable energy sources.

***

Watched this the other day and found it very interesting talk on the number of problems about fighting climate change:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPaTAC29W2I

BrucePartington
12-20-17, 05:38 PM
David Attenborough has something to say about population:

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/how-many-people-can-live-on-planet-earth/

Cheers.

Rockstar
12-23-17, 04:32 PM
http://www.drroyspencer.com/global-warming-101/

Global Warming Theory in a Nutshell

Every scientific theory involves assumptions. Global warming theory starts with the assumption that the Earth naturally maintains a constant average temperature, which is the result of a balance between (1) the amount of sunlight the Earth absorbs, and (2) the amount of emitted infrared (“IR”) radiation that the Earth continuously emits to outer space. In other words, energy in equals energy out. Averaged over the whole planet for 1 year, those energy flows in and out of the climate system are estimated to be around 235 or 240 watts per square meter.
Greenhouse components in the atmosphere (mostly water vapor, clouds, carbon dioxide, and methane) exert strong controls over how fast the Earth loses IR energy to outer space. Mankind’s burning of fossil fuels creates more atmospheric carbon dioxide. As we add more CO2, more infrared energy is trapped, strengthing the Earth’s greenhouse effect. This causes a warming tendency in the lower atmosphere and at the surface. As of 2008, it is believed that we have enhanced the Earth’s natural greenhouse effect by about 1%.
Global warming theory says that the lower atmosphere must then respond to this energy imbalance (less IR radiation being lost than solar energy being absorbed) by causing an increase in temperature (which causes an increase in the IR escaping to space) until the emitted IR radiation once again equals the amount of absorbed sunlight. That is, the Earth must increase its temperature until global energy balance is once again restored. This is the basic explanation of global warming theory. (The same energy balance concept applies to a pot of water on a stove set on “low”. The water warms until the rate of energy loss through evaporation, convective air currents, and infrared radiation equals the rate of energy gain from the stove, at which point the water remains at a constant temperature. If you turn the heat up a tiny bit more, the temperature of the water will rise again until the extra amount of energy lost by the pot once again equals the energy gained from the stove, at which point a new, warmer equilibrium temperature is reached.)
Now, you might be surprised to learn that the amount of warming directly caused by the extra CO2 is, by itself, relatively weak. It has been calculated theoretically that, if there are no other changes in the climate system, a doubling of the atmospheric CO2 concentration would cause less than 1 deg C of surface warming (about 1 deg. F). This is NOT a controversial statement…it is well understood by climate scientists. (As of 2008, we were about 40% to 45% of the way toward a doubling of atmospheric CO2.)
BUT…everything this else in the climate system probably WON’T stay the same! For instance, clouds, water vapor, and precipitation systems can all be expected to respond to the warming tendency in some way, which could either amplify or reduce the manmade warming. These other changes are called “feedbacks,” and the sum of all the feedbacks in the climate system determines what is called ‘climate sensitivity’. Negative feedbacks (low climate sensitivity) would mean that manmade global warming might not even be measurable, lost in the noise of natural climate variability. But if feedbacks are sufficiently positive (high climate sensitivity), then manmade global warming could be catastrophic.
Obviously, knowing the strength of feedbacks in the climate system is critical; this is the subject of most of my research. Here you can read about my latest work on the subject, in which I show that feedbacks previously estimated from satellite observations of natural climate variability have potentially large errors. A confusion between forcing and feedback (loosely speaking, cause and effect) when observing cloud behavior has led to the illusion of a sensitive climate system, when in fact our best satellite observations (when carefully and properly interpreted) suggest an IN-sensitive climate system.
Finally, if the climate system is insensitive, this means that the extra carbon dioxide we pump into the atmosphere is not enough to cause the observed warming over the last 100 years — some natural mechanism must be involved. Here you can read about my favorite candidate: the Pacific Decadal Oscillation.

Gargamel
12-23-17, 08:00 PM
. Global warming theory starts with the assumption that the Earth naturally maintains a constant average temperature,

Well.... I stopped reading right there. As I scanned the rest, it just seemed like more uniformed gibberish.

Global warming relies on the fact that the planet has natural climate swings related to orbital mechanics and a variety of influences. It is NOT a steady state theory.

What is different in this, the Anthropocene era, is the rate at which the climate is appearing to change, not the fact that it is changing.



Again, I ask, what do you, the climate change denier, have to gain by taking the stance that you do?

Rockstar
12-23-17, 10:16 PM
Climate change — it happens, with or without our help.

Dowly
12-24-17, 02:12 AM
Again, I ask, what do you, the climate change denier, have to gain by taking the stance that you do?I have often wondered this as well.

This sums it up quite nicely:
https://i.imgur.com/8NgfqPd.jpg

Schroeder
12-24-17, 05:15 AM
Again, I ask, what do you, the climate change denier, have to gain by taking the stance that you do?
A clean conscience when buying the next V8 and watching natural reservations being torn down would be my guess.:hmmm:

Rockstar
12-24-17, 10:02 AM
https://friendsofscience.org/index.php?id=3

COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING

MYTH 1: Global temperatures are rising at a rapid, unprecedented rate.
FACT: The HadCRUT3 surface temperature index, produced by the Hadley Centre of the UK Met Office and the Climate Research Unit of the University of East Anglia, shows warming to 1878, cooling to 1911, warming to 1941, cooling to 1964, warming to 1998 and cooling through 2011. The warming rate from 1964 to 1998 was the same as the previous warming from 1911 to 1941. Satellites, weather balloons and ground stations all show cooling since 2001. The mild warming of 0.6 to 0.8 C over the 20th century is well within the natural variations recorded in the last millennium. The ground station network suffers from an uneven distribution across the globe; the stations are preferentially located in growing urban and industrial areas ("heat islands"), which show substantially higher readings than adjacent rural areas ("land use effects"). Two science teams have shown that correcting the surface temperature record for the effects of urban development would reduce the reported warming trend over land from 1980 by half. See here.
There has been no catastrophic warming recorded.


MYTH 2: The "hockey stick" graph proves that the earth has experienced a steady, very gradual temperature decrease for 1000 years, then recently began a sudden increase.
FACT: Significant changes in climate have continually occurred throughout geologic time. For instance, the Medieval Warm Period, from around 1000 to1200 AD (when the Vikings farmed on Greenland) was followed by a period known as the Little Ice Age. Since the end of the 17th Century the "average global temperature" has been rising at the low steady rate mentioned above; although from 1940 – 1970 temperatures actually dropped, leading to a Global Cooling scare.
The "hockey stick", a poster boy of both the UN's IPCC and Canada's Environment Department, ignores historical recorded climatic swings, and has now also been proven to be flawed and statistically unreliable as well. It is a computer construct and a faulty one at that. See here for more information.

MYTH 3: Human produced carbon dioxide has increased over the last 100 years, adding to the Greenhouse effect, thus causing most of the earth's warming of the last 100 years.
FACT: Carbon dioxide levels have indeed changed for various reasons, human and otherwise, just as they have throughout geologic time. Since the beginning of the industrial revolution, the CO2 content of the atmosphere has increased by about 120 part per million (ppm), most of which is likely due to human-caused CO2 emissions. The RATE of growth during this century has been about 0.55%/year. However, there is no proof that CO2 is the main driver of global warming. As measured in ice cores dated over many thousands of years, CO2 levels move up and down AFTER the temperature has done so, and thus are the RESULT OF, NOT THE CAUSE of warming. Geological field work in recent sediments confirms this causal relationship. There is solid evidence that, as temperatures move up and down naturally and cyclically through solar radiation, orbital and galactic influences, the warming surface layers of the earth's oceans expel more CO2 as a result.

MYTH 4: CO2 is the most common greenhouse gas.
FACT: Greenhouse gases form about 3% of the atmosphere by volume. They consist of varying amounts, (about 97%) of water vapour and clouds, with the remainder being gases like CO2, CH4, Ozone and N2O, of which carbon dioxide is the largest amount. Hence, CO2 constitutes about 0.04% of the atmosphere. While the minor gases are more effective as "greenhouse agents" than water vapour and clouds, the latter are overwhelming the effect by their sheer volume and – in the end – are thought to be responsible for 75% of the "Greenhouse effect". (See here) At current concentrations, a 3% change of water vapour in the atmosphere would have the same effect as a 100% change in CO2.
Those attributing climate change to CO2 rarely mention these important facts.

MYTH 5: Computer models verify that CO2 increases will cause significant global warming.
FACT: The computer models assume that CO2 is the primary climate driver, and that the Sun has an insignificant effect on climate. Using the output of a model to verify its initial assumption is committing the logical fallacy of circular reasoning. Computer models can be made to roughly match the 20th century temperature rise by adjusting many input parameters and using strong positive feedbacks. They do not "prove" anything. Also, computer models predicting global warming are incapable of properly including the effects of the sun, cosmic rays and the clouds. The sun is a major cause of temperature variation on the earth surface as its received radiation changes all the time, This happens largely in cyclical fashion. The number and the lengths in time of sunspots can be correlated very closely with average temperatures on earth, e.g. the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period. Varying intensity of solar heat radiation affects the surface temperature of the oceans and the currents. Warmer ocean water expels gases, some of which are CO2. Solar radiation interferes with the cosmic ray flux, thus influencing the amount ionized nuclei which control cloud cover.

MYTH 6: The United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has proven that man–made CO2 causes global warming.
FACT: In a 1996 report by the UN on global warming, two statements were deleted from the final draft approved and accepted by a panel of scientists. Here they are:
1) “None of the studies cited above has shown clear evidence that we can attribute the observed climate changes to increases in greenhouse gases.”
2) “No study to date has positively attributed all or part of the climate change to man–made causes”
To the present day there is still no scientific proof that man-made CO2 causes significant global warming.
See a Wall Street Journal article here.

MYTH 7: CO2 is a pollutant.
FACT: This is absolutely not true. Nitrogen forms 80% of our atmosphere. We could not live in 100% nitrogen either. Carbon dioxide is no more a pollutant than nitrogen is. CO2 is essential to life on earth. It is necessary for plant growth since increased CO2 intake as a result of increased atmospheric concentration causes many trees and other plants to grow more vigorously. Unfortunately, the Canadian Government has included CO2 with a number of truly toxic and noxious substances listed by the Environmental Protection Act, only as their means to politically control it. The graph here shows changes in vegetative cover due to CO2 fertilization between 1982 and 2010 (Donohue et al., 2013 GRL). A major study here shows that CO2 fertilization will likely increase the value of crop production between now and 2050 by an additional $11.7 trillion ($US 2014). See here for more discussion.

MYTH 8: Global warming will cause more storms and other weather extremes.
FACT: There is no scientific or statistical evidence whatsoever that supports such claims on a global scale. Regional variations may occur. Growing insurance and infrastructure repair costs, particularly in coastal areas, are sometimes claimed to be the result of increasing frequency and severity of storms, whereas in reality they are a function of increasing population density, escalating development value, and ever more media reporting. See here for graphs and discussion of extreme weather.

MYTH 9: Receding glaciers and the calving of ice shelves are proof of man-made global warming.
FACT: Glaciers have been receding and growing cyclically for hundreds of years. Recent glacier melting is a consequence of coming out of the very cool period of the Little Ice Age. Ice shelves have been breaking off for centuries. Scientists know of at least 33 periods of glaciers growing and then retreating. It’s normal. Besides, changes to glacier's extent is dependent as much on precipitation as on temperature.

MYTH 10: The earth’s poles are warming and the polar ice caps are breaking up and melting.
FACT: The earth is variable. The Arctic Region had warmed from 1966 to 2005, due to cyclic events in the Pacific Ocean and soot from Asia darkening the ice, but there has been no warming since 2005. Current temperatures are the same as in 1943. The small Palmer Peninsula of Antarctica is getting warmer, while the main Antarctic continent is actually cooling. Ice cap thicknesses in both Greenland and Antarctica are increasing. North polar temperature graph here. South polar temperature graph here. See here for sea ice extent.

Dowly
12-24-17, 10:32 AM
Must you do this today of all days? Don't you know we heathens celebrate Christmas today here in Finland?! How rude. :-?

I will have to get back to you on a later date.

Gargamel
12-24-17, 11:29 AM
Climate change — it happens, with or without our help.

Yes, and your point?

Again.... it's the rate of change.....

Gargamel
12-24-17, 11:34 AM
MYTH 7: CO2 is a pollutant.
FACT: This is absolutely not true. Nitrogen forms 80% of our atmosphere. We could not live in 100% nitrogen either. Carbon dioxide is no more a pollutant than nitrogen is.

LOL... OK... I was just skipping over more of this gibberish you post, but I saw this and had to laugh.

Toxic levels of any substance are possible. Any material can be a pollutant.

August
12-24-17, 01:21 PM
I have often wondered this as well.

This sums it up quite nicely:


Posted 12/24/17 02:12am

Must you do this today of all days? Don't you know we heathens celebrate Christmas today here in Finland?! How rude. :-?

Posted 12/24/17 10:32am

If you don't want a fire maybe you shouldn't light matches.

Dowly
12-24-17, 05:33 PM
nvm, Merry Christmas!

vienna
12-24-17, 05:43 PM
https://friendsofscience.org/index.php?id=3

COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING

...





Draw you own conclusions about the source:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_Science








<O>

August
12-24-17, 05:50 PM
nvm, Merry Christmas!

To you and yours as well Dowly. :salute:

Rockstar
12-26-17, 04:22 PM
To The Horror Of Global Warming Alarmists, Global Cooling Is Here

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2013/05/26/to-the-horror-of-global-warming-alarmists-global-cooling-is-here/#75f0f4474dcf

... this same concern is increasingly being echoed worldwide. The Voice of Russia reported on April 22, 2013,

“Global warming which has been the subject of so many discussions in recent years, may give way to global cooling. According to scientists from the Pulkovo Observatory in St.Petersburg, solar activity is waning, so the average yearly temperature will begin to decline as well. Scientists from Britain and the US chime in saying that forecasts for global cooling are far from groundless.”

That report quoted Yuri Nagovitsyn of the Pulkovo Observatory saying, “Evidently, solar activity is on the decrease. The 11-year cycle doesn’t bring about considerable climate change – only 1-2%. The impact of the 200-year cycle is greater – up to 50%. In this respect, we could be in for a cooling period that lasts 200-250 years.” In other words, another Little Ice Age.

...The German Herald reported on March 31, 2013,
“German meteorologists say that the start of 2013 is now the coldest in 208 years - and now German media has quoted Russian scientist Dr Habibullo Abdussamatov from the St. Petersburg Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory [saying this] is proof as he said earlier that we are heading for a "Mini Ice Age." Talking to German media the scientist who first made his prediction in 2005 said that after studying sunspots and their relationship with climate change on Earth, we are now on an ‘unavoidable advance towards a deep temperature drop.’”
Faith in Global Warming is collapsing in formerly staunch Europe following increasingly severe winters which have now started continuing into spring. Christopher Booker explained in The Sunday Telegraph on April 27, 2013,

Schroeder
12-26-17, 04:36 PM
Funny that the temperature is still rising even though we should be heading for an ice age...2016 was the hottest on record.:hmmm:

Rockstar
12-26-17, 04:43 PM
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html

Simultaneous warming on Earth and Mars suggests that our planet's recent climate changes have a natural—and not a human-induced—cause, according to one scientist's controversial theory

Abdussamatov believes that changes in the sun's heat output can account for almost all the climate changes we see on both planets.
Mars and Earth, for instance, have experienced periodic ice ages throughout their histories.
"Man-made greenhouse warming has made a small contribution to the warming seen on Earth in recent years, but it cannot compete with the increase in solar irradiance," Abdussamatov said.


It will be interesting see the direction Mars and Earths ice caps take. But as we hear some people already have their made up who to blame

Rockstar
12-26-17, 04:45 PM
Funny that the temperature is still rising even though we should be heading for an ice age...2016 was the hottest on record.:hmmm:


Hottest on record where? Because over here we're preparing for record cold and snow

Rockstar
12-26-17, 04:46 PM
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/nasa-study-mass-gains-of-antarctic-ice-sheet-greater-than-losses

NASA Study: Mass Gains of Antarctic Ice Sheet Greater than Losses

A new NASA study says that an increase in Antarctic snow accumulation that began 10,000 years ago is currently adding enough ice to the continent to outweigh the increased losses from its thinning glaciers.

The research challenges the conclusions of other studies, including the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s (IPCC) 2013 report, which says that Antarctica is overall losing land ice.

Rockstar
12-26-17, 05:27 PM
My my not too long ago polar ice caps melted on Mars along with the rise of our own global warming alarmist political hype here on earth. Now NASA is expecting Mars caps to thicken as climate model suggest our own caps are doing. Earths global warming alarmists still holding on tight to their religion that it's my fault because I didn't believe them. Dress warm fellas!


Now as global warming political alarmists say:" time for more pseudoscience from NASA!"

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/nasa-radar-finds-ice-age-record-in-mars-polar-cap

But Mars also undergoes variations in its tilt and the shape of its orbit over hundreds of thousands of years. These changes cause substantial shifts in the planet's climate, including ice ages. Earth has similar, but less variable, phases called Milankovitch cycles.

ikalugin
12-27-17, 05:14 AM
Global warming would be nice, as it would make a lot of Russian lands actually farmable/livable.

Dowly
12-27-17, 08:35 AM
To The Horror Of Global Warming Alarmists, Global Cooling Is Here

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2013/05/26/to-the-horror-of-global-warming-alarmists-global-cooling-is-here/#75f0f4474dcf

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html

Simultaneous warming on Earth and Mars suggests that our planet's recent climate changes have a natural—and not a human-induced—cause, according to one scientist's controversial theory

So, which one is it? Cooling or warming?

Mr Quatro
12-27-17, 11:17 AM
I really don't want to bring up the G** word, but the seed has already been planted in my thought pattern that this is all predestined to happen by our maker. The bible points to a new heaven and a new earth at the end of the prophesied 1,000 years of peace which of course comes after the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.

My seed thought came for Edgar Cacye whom just happened to prophesy that this would happen in a trance like dream state back in the 1930's. Edgar Cayce said that the north pole and the south pole would change directions. He failed to say when, but he had more than one trance like reading and came up with that it would start in the mid 1990's. A lot of followers thought he meant that it would happen in the mid 1990's, but further analyzes shows that he only said that it would start then.

The El nino problem was first noticed by myself in 1997 in Arizona when the weatherman said that it was going to rain a lot due to a warm spot in the Pacific Ocean called El nino. I laughed and said to myself you can't ell if it's going to rain a lot due to a little warm spot in the Pacific Ocean ... it rained a lot and it would'n't stop raining.

Y'all can do some research if you want to:

https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&q=poles+are+changing&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-jsDnx6rYAhVC9YMKHVudDpkQvwUIIygA&biw=1354&bih=652

You can't out run this problem and you can't solve this problem and you can't blame just man ... therefore I bring up the G** word.

He can handle all of your questions. :o

I have to go have my coffee now ... :up:

Rockstar
12-27-17, 02:01 PM
So, which one is it? Cooling or warming?

Its known both earth and mars have had warm and cool periods in their history.

Which is it natural or man made?

One planet seems to just adapt to natural enviromental changes. In fact science even says so.

The other planets inhabitants politicizes the phenomena and blames the other for it.

You presume its mans fault and the funding is provided to prove it. How much funding has gone towards looking for natural causes?

Gargamel
12-27-17, 10:08 PM
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/earth_temperature_timeline.png

August
12-27-17, 10:29 PM
This thread makes me want to get a fire going in the fireplace.

Rockstar
12-28-17, 08:10 AM
My primary heat source for my 1895 2700 sqft home. Im burning wood pellets and wood from a 60 foot pecan tree I cut down in my backyard two years ago. Because its freaking cold right now.

August
12-28-17, 08:19 AM
I love burning wood for heat.

In addition to the living room fireplace we also have a Jotul wood stove in the basement. Them Norwegians know their wood stoves. I love the side door.

https://jotul.com/us/products/wood-stoves/_image/3195.png?_encoded=2f66666666666678302f30382f3b2930 35352878616d656c616373&_ts=139fe4a231a

Dowly
12-28-17, 09:27 AM
MYTH 1: Global temperatures are rising at a rapid, unprecedented rate.
FACT: The HadCRUT3 surface temperature index, produced by the Hadley Centre of the UK Met Office and the Climate Research Unit of the University of East Anglia, shows warming to 1878, cooling to 1911, warming to 1941, cooling to 1964, warming to 1998 and cooling through 2011. The warming rate from 1964 to 1998 was the same as the previous warming from 1911 to 1941. Satellites, weather balloons and ground stations all show cooling since 2001[1]. The mild warming of 0.6 to 0.8 C over the 20th century is well within the natural variations recorded in the last millennium. The ground station network suffers from an uneven distribution across the globe; the stations are preferentially located in growing urban and industrial areas ("heat islands"), which show substantially higher readings than adjacent rural areas ("land use effects")[2]. Two science teams have shown that correcting the surface temperature record for the effects of urban development would reduce the reported warming trend over land from 1980 by half. See here.
There has been no catastrophic warming recorded.1: Satellite data from RSS and UAH shows warming:

RSS:
http://woodfortrees.org/graph/rss/from:2001/plot/rss/from:2001/trend

UAH:
http://woodfortrees.org/graph/uah6/from:2001/plot/uah6/from:2001/trend

2: The effect of ground measuring stations in "poor exposure" areas and the "heat island" effect has been studied.

On the reliability of the U.S. surface temperature record (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2009JD013094/full)

[..]the bias in unadjusted maximum temperature data from poor exposure sites relative to good exposure sites is, on average, negative (colder) while the bias in minimum temperatures is positive (warmer) (though smaller in magnitude than the negative bias in maximum temperatures).Influence of Urban Heating on the Global Temperature Land Average using Rural Sites Identified from MODIS Classifications (http://static.berkeleyearth.org/papers/UHI-GIGS-1-104.pdf) (PDF)

We observe the opposite of an urban heating effect over the period 1950 to 2010, with a slope of -0.10 ± 0.24°C/100yr (2σ error) in the Berkeley Earth global land temperature average.***

MYTH 2: The "hockey stick" graph proves that the earth has experienced a steady, very gradual temperature decrease for 1000 years, then recently began a sudden increase.
FACT: Significant changes in climate have continually occurred throughout geologic time. For instance, the Medieval Warm Period, from around 1000 to1200 AD (when the Vikings farmed on Greenland) was followed by a period known as the Little Ice Age. Since the end of the 17th Century the "average global temperature" has been rising at the low steady rate mentioned above; although from 1940 – 1970 temperatures actually dropped, leading to a Global Cooling scare.
The "hockey stick", a poster boy of both the UN's IPCC and Canada's Environment Department, ignores historical recorded climatic swings, and has now also been proven to be flawed and statistically unreliable as well. It is a computer construct and a faulty one at that. See here for more information.The criticism of Mann's 1998 paper by the skeptic paper by McKitrick and McIntyre is assessed independently by Wahl et al.

Robustness of the Mann, Bradley, Hughes reconstruction of Northern Hemisphere surface temperatures: Examination of criticisms based on the nature and processing of proxy climate evidence (http://www.rap.ucar.edu/projects/rc4a/millennium/refs/Wahl_ClimChange2007.pdf) (PDF)

The results presented here show no evidence for removing the MBH Northern Hemisphere
temperature reconstruction from the list of important climate reconstructions of the past six
centuries, on the basis of alleged “flaws” in its use of proxy data or underlying methodology.
Indeed, our analyses act as an overall indication of the robustness of the MBH reconstruction
to a variety of issues raised concerning its methods of assimilating proxy data, and also
to two significant simplifications of the MBH method that we have introduced. The shape
of a single-bladed “hockey stick”-like evolution of Northern Hemisphere temperature over
the last 600 years is strongly confirmed within the MBH reconstruction framework (general
algorithm and proxy data).***

MYTH 3: Human produced carbon dioxide has increased over the last 100 years, adding to the Greenhouse effect, thus causing most of the earth's warming of the last 100 years.
FACT: Carbon dioxide levels have indeed changed for various reasons, human and otherwise, just as they have throughout geologic time. Since the beginning of the industrial revolution, the CO2 content of the atmosphere has increased by about 120 part per million (ppm), most of which is likely due to human-caused CO2 emissions. The RATE of growth during this century has been about 0.55%/year. However, there is no proof that CO2 is the main driver of global warming. As measured in ice cores dated over many thousands of years, CO2 levels move up and down AFTER the temperature has done so, and thus are the RESULT OF, NOT THE CAUSE of warming. Geological field work in recent sediments confirms this causal relationship. There is solid evidence that, as temperatures move up and down naturally and cyclically through solar radiation, orbital and galactic influences, the warming surface layers of the earth's oceans expel more CO2 as a result.The CO2 v. Temperature lag has been studied in a number of papers and they tend to agree that while orbital forcing has been the trigger of deglacification, the released CO2 afterwards has been the main driver of the continued warming.

See for example:
Global warming preceded by increasing carbon dioxide concentrations during the last deglaciation (http://www.atm.damtp.cam.ac.uk/mcintyre/shakun-co2-temp-lag-nat12.pdf) (PDF)

Our global temperature stack and transient modelling point to CO2
as a key mechanism of global warming during the last deglaciation***

MYTH 4: CO2 is the most common greenhouse gas.
FACT: Greenhouse gases form about 3% of the atmosphere by volume. They consist of varying amounts, (about 97%) of water vapour and clouds, with the remainder being gases like CO2, CH4, Ozone and N2O, of which carbon dioxide is the largest amount. Hence, CO2 constitutes about 0.04% of the atmosphere. While the minor gases are more effective as "greenhouse agents" than water vapour and clouds, the latter are overwhelming the effect by their sheer volume and – in the end – are thought to be responsible for 75% of the "Greenhouse effect". (See here) At current concentrations, a 3% change of water vapour in the atmosphere would have the same effect as a 100% change in CO2.
Those attributing climate change to CO2 rarely mention these important facts.CO2 is the most talked about GHG because it affects the climate most in the long run. Water vapor stays in atmosphere for about 10 days, CO2 stays in the atmosphere anywhere from couple of years to over 1,000 years.

***

MYTH 5: Computer models verify that CO2 increases will cause significant global warming.
FACT: The computer models assume that CO2 is the primary climate driver, and that the Sun has an insignificant effect on climate. Using the output of a model to verify its initial assumption is committing the logical fallacy of circular reasoning. Computer models can be made to roughly match the 20th century temperature rise by adjusting many input parameters and using strong positive feedbacks. They do not "prove" anything. Also, computer models predicting global warming are incapable of properly including the effects of the sun, cosmic rays and the clouds. The sun is a major cause of temperature variation on the earth surface as its received radiation changes all the time, This happens largely in cyclical fashion. The number and the lengths in time of sunspots can be correlated very closely with average temperatures on earth, e.g. the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period. Varying intensity of solar heat radiation affects the surface temperature of the oceans and the currents. Warmer ocean water expels gases, some of which are CO2. Solar radiation interferes with the cosmic ray flux, thus influencing the amount ionized nuclei which control cloud cover.Sun's activity can't explain the raising temperature anymore.

How natural and anthropogenic influences alter global and regional surface temperatures: 1889 to 2006 (http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.167.2337&rep=rep1&type=pdf) (PDF)

None of the natural processes can account for the
overall warming trend in global surface temperatures. In the
100 years from 1905 to 2005, the temperature trends
produce by all three natural influences are at least an order
of magnitude smaller than the observed surface temperature
trend reported by IPCC [2007]. According to this analysis,
solar forcing contributed negligible long-term warming in
the past 25 years and 10% of the warming in the past 100
years, not 69% as claimed by Scafetta and West [2008]
(who assumed larger solar irradiance changes and enhanced
climate response on longer time scales).Global temperature evolution 1979–2010 (http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/6/4/044022)

The resultant adjusted data show clearly, both visually and when subjected to statistical analysis, that the rate of global warming due to other factors (most likely these are exclusively anthropogenic) has been remarkably steady during the 32 years from 1979 through 2010. There is no indication of any slowdown or acceleration of global warming, beyond the variability induced by these known natural factors. Because the effects of volcanic eruptions and of ENSO are very short-term and that of solar variability very small (figure 7), none of these factors can be expected to exert a significant influence on the continuation of global warming over the coming decades.Red: Monthly number of sunspots
Green: Global mean temperature
Blue: Total Solar Irradiance monthly average
http://woodfortrees.org/graph/sidc-ssn/from:1975/normalise/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:1975/normalise/plot/pmod/from:1975/normalise

***

MYTH 6: The United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has proven that man–made CO2 causes global warming.
FACT: In a 1996 report by the UN on global warming, two statements were deleted from the final draft approved and accepted by a panel of scientists. Here they are:
1) “None of the studies cited above has shown clear evidence that we can attribute the observed climate changes to increases in greenhouse gases.”
2) “No study to date has positively attributed all or part of the climate change to man–made causes”
To the present day there is still no scientific proof that man-made CO2 causes significant global warming.
See a Wall Street Journal article here.Can't say much about the deleted stuff other than to offer the letter responding to the allegation by Benjamin Santer:
https://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/Publications/PDF_Papers/WSJ_June25.pdf

As for there not being any scientific proof of man-made global warming, here's a paper published already in 1956 which links CO2, both natural and anthropogenic, to climate change:
Carbon Dioxide Theory of Climate Change (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.2153-3490.1956.tb01206.x/asset/j.2153-3490.1956.tb01206.x.pdf?v=1&t=jbpkrhpc&293c106b)

***

MYTH 7: CO2 is a pollutant.
FACT: This is absolutely not true. Nitrogen forms 80% of our atmosphere. We could not live in 100% nitrogen either. Carbon dioxide is no more a pollutant than nitrogen is. CO2 is essential to life on earth. It is necessary for plant growth since increased CO2 intake as a result of increased atmospheric concentration causes many trees and other plants to grow more vigorously. Unfortunately, the Canadian Government has included CO2 with a number of truly toxic and noxious substances listed by the Environmental Protection Act, only as their means to politically control it. The graph here shows changes in vegetative cover due to CO2 fertilization between 1982 and 2010 (Donohue et al., 2013 GRL). A major study here shows that CO2 fertilization will likely increase the value of crop production between now and 2050 by an additional $11.7 trillion ($US 2014). See here for more discussion.Whether CO2 is classed as a pollutant or not is, imho, irrelevant.

***

MYTH 8: Global warming will cause more storms and other weather extremes.
FACT: There is no scientific or statistical evidence whatsoever that supports such claims on a global scale. Regional variations may occur. Growing insurance and infrastructure repair costs, particularly in coastal areas, are sometimes claimed to be the result of increasing frequency and severity of storms, whereas in reality they are a function of increasing population density, escalating development value, and ever more media reporting. See here for graphs and discussion of extreme weather.The simple answer is: Scientists are not sure yet.

***

MYTH 9: Receding glaciers and the calving of ice shelves are proof of man-made global warming.
FACT: Glaciers have been receding and growing cyclically for hundreds of years. Recent glacier melting is a consequence of coming out of the very cool period of the Little Ice Age. Ice shelves have been breaking off for centuries. Scientists know of at least 33 periods of glaciers growing and then retreating. It’s normal. Besides, changes to glacier's extent is dependent as much on precipitation as on temperature.
Coming out of the LIA doesn't explain the increasingly rapid rate at which global glacier mass is decreasing.

http://www.grid.unep.ch/glaciers/pdfs/7.pdf

The early mass balance
measurements indicate strong ice losses as early as
the 1940s and 1950s, followed by a moderate ice loss
between 1966 and 1985, and accelerating ice losses until
present. The global average annual mass loss of more
than half a metre water equivalent during the decade
of 1996 to 2005 represents twice the ice loss of the
previous decade (1986–95) and over four times the rate
of the decade from 1976 to 1985***

MYTH 10: The earth’s poles are warming and the polar ice caps are breaking up and melting.
FACT: The earth is variable. The Arctic Region had warmed from 1966 to 2005, due to cyclic events in the Pacific Ocean and soot from Asia darkening the ice, but there has been no warming since 2005. Current temperatures are the same as in 1943. The small Palmer Peninsula of Antarctica is getting warmer, while the main Antarctic continent is actually cooling. Ice cap thicknesses in both Greenland and Antarctica are increasing. North polar temperature graph here. South polar temperature graph here. See here for sea ice extent.Both the Arctic region and Greenland are losing mass. Antarctic is gaining mass, but at ever decreasing rate.

Dowly
12-28-17, 09:53 AM
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html

Simultaneous warming on Earth and Mars suggests that our planet's recent climate changes have a natural—and not a human-induced—cause, according to one scientist's controversial theory

Abdussamatov believes that changes in the sun's heat output can account for almost all the climate changes we see on both planets.
Mars and Earth, for instance, have experienced periodic ice ages throughout their histories.
"Man-made greenhouse warming has made a small contribution to the warming seen on Earth in recent years, but it cannot compete with the increase in solar irradiance," Abdussamatov said.


It will be interesting see the direction Mars and Earths ice caps take. But as we hear some people already have their made up who to blameYour own article casts doubt on Abdussamatov's study on page 2.

Hottest on record where? Because over here we're preparing for record cold and snow
Local != global, this is a basic thing about climate change, that you don't know that doesn't surprise me one bit.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/nasa-study-mass-gains-of-antarctic-ice-sheet-greater-than-losses

NASA Study: Mass Gains of Antarctic Ice Sheet Greater than Losses

A new NASA study says that an increase in Antarctic snow accumulation that began 10,000 years ago is currently adding enough ice to the continent to outweigh the increased losses from its thinning glaciers.

The research challenges the conclusions of other studies, including the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s (IPCC) 2013 report, which says that Antarctica is overall losing land ice.The article also says this:
But it might only take a few decades for Antarctica’s growth to reverse, according to Zwally. “If the losses of the Antarctic Peninsula and parts of West Antarctica continue to increase at the same rate they’ve been increasing for the last two decades, the losses will catch up with the long-term gain in East Antarctica in 20 or 30 years -- I don’t think there will be enough snowfall increase to offset these losses.”Also, NASA Scientist Warned Deniers Would Distort His Antarctic Ice Study — That's Exactly What They Did (http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/11/04/nasa-scientist-warned-deniers-would-distort-his/206612)

August
12-28-17, 03:19 PM
"Might"
"It seems"
"If"
"I don't think"

For a "settled science" there is a lot of doubt in the language that they're using. I think it's because they know that if Human Caused global warming is actually real then it's not going to be something anyone can do anything about short of a population reducing war or other calamity. We certainly don't have an affordable replacement for fossil fuels yet.

Rockstar
12-28-17, 03:36 PM
"Might"
"It seems"
"If"
"I don't think"

For a "settled science" there is a lot of doubt in the language that they're using. I think it's because they know that if Human Caused global warming is actually real then it's not going to be something anyone can do anything about short of a population reducing war or other calamity. We certainly don't have an affordable replacement for fossil fuels yet.

But if we're speaking of outlying planets in our solar system. Its pretty much settle science the warming and cooling of those planets is a naturally occurring phenomena. Here on earth however it doesn't appear much funding goes towards understanding how those same forces work on our planet. For some odd reason its presumed the warming trend is man made. And if you dare think outside the box you get things written about you like "His views are completely at odds with the mainstream scientific opinion," said Colin Wilson, a planetary physicist at England's Oxford University. "And they contradict the extensive evidence presented in the most recent IPCC [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change] report." (Related: "Global Warming 'Very Likely' Caused by Humans, World Climate Experts Say" [February 2, 2007]. God forbid if anyone interferes with the mainstream's funding. Now politicians have found it very convenient and certainly advantageous to promote the perception its man made.

Reminds me back when I was a child when the almighty main stream scientific opinion 'just knew' the universe was static and eternal. You could have lost tenure or at the least been made the butt of jokes by your peers had you believed it had a beginning. I remember when science said the story written by some desert sheep herders three thousand years ago of it having a beginning was just a bed story to help children sleep at night.

razark
12-28-17, 04:22 PM
Other planets also show warming trends. How does the rate of warming on those planets compare to the rate of warming on this one? How does the rate of the current warming trend on Earth compare to previous warming and cooling trends?

vienna
12-28-17, 05:44 PM
One thing those other planets don't have: life forms or, at least life forms capable of producing variable artificial impact on the planets' environment on a very mass scale; comparing an uninhabited or lifeless planet to Earth is like comparing an empty house to a very full occupied house: the variables, conditions, and interactions/reactions are missing in the unoccupied house...






<O>

mapuc
12-28-17, 06:52 PM
This is my belief

This Global Warming would have happened whatever the human have been here or not, the only thing we, the human, can be accused of, is having kickstartet this Global Warming sooner than expected.

That is what I believe

Markus

Gargamel
12-28-17, 10:50 PM
This is my belief

This Global Warming would have happened whatever the human have been here or not, the only thing we, the human, can be accused of, is having kickstartet this Global Warming sooner than expected.

That is what I believe

Markus

That's exactly the point!

The rate of change would have been gradual enough, that nature and what civilization would be here, would have had time to adapt appropriately. With Human induced climate change, we've induced a change that is happening so rapidly (and it's just beginning) that we won't be able to adapt in time or at a reasonable cost.

That's even assuming we would have hit the temps we are going to.

Rockstar
12-29-17, 12:10 AM
Looking at University of Alabama Satellite Lower Atmosphere graph for the last 34 years and the NASA GISS Mean Monthly Surface Temperature Anomaly graph for the last 17 years. It appears Global Warming stopped in the late 1990s or early 2000s.
So, we had Global cooling in 1970's, global warming in the 80's soon revised to climate change in the 90's. Now with temperatures seemingly pointing towards a cooling period I expect any day now like the seasons the main scientific consensus of the world will change once again and declare it "climate disruption" as they pat themselves on the back for saving the world from global warming :haha:

Dowly
12-29-17, 03:49 AM
But if we're speaking of outlying planets in our solar system. Its pretty much settle science the warming and cooling of those planets is a naturally occurring phenomena.No, it isn't "settled" since we don't know. There simply is not enough data to know even how much the outer planets warm and cool during a planetary year. The best guess atm is that it is natural, since we have no reason to think it is otherwise.

Here on earth however it doesn't appear much funding goes towards understanding how those same forces work on our planet. For some odd reason its presumed the warming trend is man made.Of course there's research on how Earth's climate works and what natural causes change it, that's why we now can say with high certainty that human CO2 emissions are affecting the climate.

And if you dare think outside the box you get things written about you like "His views are completely at odds with the mainstream scientific opinion," said Colin Wilson, a planetary physicist at England's Oxford University. "And they contradict the extensive evidence presented in the most recent IPCC [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change] report." (Related: "Global Warming 'Very Likely' Caused by Humans, World Climate Experts Say" [February 2, 2007].He gets called out because his findings are simply not supported by evidence.

From the same article: Amato Evan, a climate scientist at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, added that "the idea just isn't supported by the theory or by the observations."

God forbid if anyone interferes with the mainstream's funding. Now politicians have found it very convenient and certainly advantageous to promote the perception its man made.Again with the funding. Can you actually show any numbers to back this claim? Preferably globally, since the science is done around the world not just in the US.

Dowly
12-29-17, 04:13 AM
Looking at University of Alabama Satellite Lower Atmosphere graph for the last 34 years and the NASA GISS Mean Monthly Surface Temperature Anomaly graph for the last 17 years. It appears Global Warming stopped in the late 1990s or early 2000s.
So, we had Global cooling in 1970's, global warming in the 80's soon revised to climate change in the 90's. Now with temperatures seemingly pointing towards a cooling period I expect any day now like the seasons the main scientific consensus of the world will change once again and declare it "climate disruption" as they pat themselves on the back for saving the world from global warming :haha:
No need to post the graphs or anything. :roll:

Here, let me help you.

UAH6.0, from 1980 to present shows warming:
http://woodfortrees.org/graph/uah6/from:1980/plot/uah6/from:1980/trend

GISTEMP, from 2000 shows warming:
http://woodfortrees.org/graph/gistemp/from:2000/plot/gistemp/from:2000/trend

Even the skeptic Dr.Roy Spencer shows on his site (which you have linked to in this thread) that the UAH6.0 data shows warming from 1979:
http://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/

Catfish
12-29-17, 05:43 AM
Other planets also show warming trends. How does the rate of warming on those planets compare to the rate of warming on this one? How does the rate of the current warming trend on Earth compare to previous warming and cooling trends?

"Other planets". Which, exactly?
None of the "other planets" at least within the solar system have an atmosphere like the earth, and i have not heard about planets at Alpha Centauri or wherever that show any trend, because we plain cannot observe it.

The rate and expecially speed of the recent earth's global warming cannot be compared to anything that happened before. Ice and geological strata give hints, but even in the past's badest time with a dying out of around 95 percent of earth's creatures, the warming took some ten thousand years to happen. The effect after this however took some 100 million years to vanish and get back to former moderate temperatures, and the deserts finally disappearing.
Before the effect set in, there was however a worldwide sinking of temperatures, because clouds of evaporated H2O blocked the sunlight for some time. However atmospheric gases of all kinds also evoparate into space, so after this had happened..

razark
12-29-17, 09:44 AM
"Other planets". Which, exactly?
Sorry, I thought I had included the quote I was replying to:
But if we're speaking of outlying planets in our solar system. Its pretty much settle science the warming and cooling of those planets is a naturally occurring phenomena.
There was no specific mention of which planets were involved. For the sake of argument, I accepted the claim and moved on to look at the implications.


None of the "other planets" at least within the solar system have an atmosphere like the earth...
Which is another reason the comparison was somewhat useless.


...the warming took some ten thousand years to happen. The effect after this however took some 100 million years to vanish and get back to former moderate temperatures, and the deserts finally disappearing.
Hence my point on how this current trend compared to previous, naturally occurring changes. We're seeing in decades what once took centuries or millennia to occur.

Catfish
12-29-17, 04:53 PM
Hi Razark,
i am sorry, i completely misunderstood your post :o
I seem to get allergic towards certain topics :oops:

Red Devil
12-29-17, 08:49 PM
I was always a global warming sceptic, but it is actually happening. What is causing it is the food for thought. Many scientists claim its a natural progression of Mother Natures greater scheme. A few blame humans. Personally it is a mixture of both. Apparently we are entering the 6th age of extinction, which will take a few millennia of years to take effect but will happen. Humans can forget star travel unless we all abandon religious idiocy and work together, yeah right! We wont survive long enough. Anyway, in 1 billion years the earth will become uninhabitable anyway as the sun begins its billion or so years expansion.

So when we have gone, who or what is going to take over? My bet is either cats or octopuses. both have a supreme intelligence.

Anyway, the planet is warming, fact. More and more glaciers are being recorded as arriving at breaking point and going into our oceans, both north and south, watched by sats and NASA aircraft. A recent one that drifted off the south pole was the size of the country of Wales!! A consequence of global warming is more frequent hurricanes. These are caused when seas become too warm, the water evaporates and becomes water vapour/cloud which, propelled by the earths rotation, make them spin and forms thunder clouds, which become spinning hurricanes and the energy and heat is carries away and dumped on land, the sea then retuns to its equilibrium, for the time being .................. in the north, the ice is not staying as ice for as long as it should, and a direct consequence is that polar bears are having to look at land to survive!!

And have you noticed, hurricane frequency is already increasing on both numbers and power? so there you have it :yeah:

Rockstar
12-30-17, 07:46 AM
Other planets also show warming trends. How does the rate of warming on those planets compare to the rate of warming on this one? How does the rate of the current warming trend on Earth compare to previous warming and cooling trends?

Do tell.

Rockstar
12-30-17, 07:50 AM
http://vortex.plymouth.edu/uschill.gif

"So what happens if global temperatures take a real plunge for a sustained period? Don’t worry, the explainers have that one covered as well James Hansen, former NASA GISS Director, published a paper which suggests global warming will trigger a short ice age in the near future.

No matter what happens to the weather, the climate explainers shamelessly cobble together an explanation which blames bad weather on your sinful lifestyle."


It’s cold outside, but that doesn’t mean climate change isn’t real. :roll:
Sammy Roth, USA TODAY Published 5:13 p.m. ET Dec. 28, 2017

Schroeder
12-30-17, 08:14 AM
http://vortex.plymouth.edu/uschill.gif

"So what happens if global temperatures take a real plunge for a sustained period? Don’t worry, the explainers have that one covered as well James Hansen, former NASA GISS Director, published a paper which suggests global warming will trigger a short ice age in the near future.

No matter what happens to the weather, the climate explainers shamelessly cobble together an explanation which blames bad weather on your sinful lifestyle."


It’s cold outside, but that doesn’t mean climate change isn’t real. :roll:
Sammy Roth, USA TODAY Published 5:13 p.m. ET Dec. 28, 2017
And these are the types of posts why I don't even bother anymore. You don't want to understand it and therefore it's pointless.

Rockstar
12-30-17, 08:35 AM
You have probably heard that melting permafrost is a big contributor to increasing the levels of greenhouse gases in our atmosphere, and that melting permafrost may even cause an unstoppable acceleration of global warming.
New research, however, supported by the National Science Foundation (NSF), counters this widely-held scientific view that thawing permafrost uniformly accelerates atmospheric warming, indicating instead that certain arctic lakes store more greenhouse gases than they emit into the atmosphere.
The study, published this week in the journal Nature, focuses on thermokarst lakes, which occur as permafrost thaws and creates surface depressions that fill with melted fresh water, converting what was previously frozen land into lakes.
The research suggests that arctic thermokarst lakes are “net climate coolers” when observed over longer, millennial, time scales.

-------

Two years ago during the scorching summer of 2012, July 1936 lost its place on the leaderboard and July 2012 became the hottest month on record in the United States. Now, as if by magic, and according to NOAA’s own data, July 1936 is now the hottest month on record again. The past, present, and future all seems to be “adjustable” in NOAA’s world.

-------

When future generations try to understand how the world got carried away around the end of the 20th century by the panic over global warming, few things will amaze them more than the part played in stoking up the scare by the fiddling of official temperature data. There was already much evidence of this seven years ago, when I was writing my history of the scare, The Real Global Warming Disaster. But now another damning example has been uncovered by Steven Goddard’s US blog Real Science, showing how shamelessly manipulated has been one of the world’s most influential climate records, the graph of US surface temperature records published by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA).
Goddard shows how, in recent years, NOAA’s US Historical Climatology Network (USHCN) has been “adjusting” its record by replacing real temperatures with data “fabricated” by computer models. The effect of this has been to downgrade earlier temperatures and to exaggerate those from recent decades, to give the impression that the Earth has been warming up much more than is justified by the actual data. In several posts headed “Data tampering at USHCN/GISS”, Goddard compares the currently published temperature graphs with those based only on temperatures measured at the time. These show that the US has actually been cooling since the Thirties, the hottest decade on record; whereas the latest graph, nearly half of it based on “fabricated” data, shows it to have been warming at a rate equivalent to more than 3 degrees centigrade per century.

------

A widely reported “pause” in global warming may be an artefact of scientists looking at the wrong data, says a climate scientist at theEuropean Space Agency.
Global average sea surface temperatures rose rapidly from the 1970s but have been relatively flat for the past 15 years. This has prompted speculation from some quarters that global warming has stalled.
Now, Stephen Briggs from the European Space Agency’s Directorate of Earth Observation says that sea surface temperature data is the worst indicator of global climate that can be used, describing it as “lousy”.
“It is like looking at the last hair on the tail of a dog and trying to decide what breed it is,” he said on Friday at the Royal Society in London.
Climate scientists have been arguing for some time that the lack of warming of the sea surface is due to most of the extra heat being taken up by the deep ocean. A better measure, he said, was to look at the average rise in sea levels. The oceans store the vast majority of the climate’s heat energy. Increases in this stored energy translate into sea level rises.

------

Rockstar
12-31-17, 08:43 AM
weather.com/storms/winter/news/2017-12-28-arctic-record-cold-outbreak-forecast-midwest-east-south-new-year-2018


Brrrrr this global warming is so hot its cold.

Schroeder
12-31-17, 10:25 AM
14°C (59°f) here. It should be in the freezing area but you can almost walk outside without a jacket. Doesn't prove much on it's own though.
And global isn't the same as local but you don't want to get that.

Rockstar
12-31-17, 03:29 PM
No need to post the graphs or anything. :roll:

Here, let me help you.

UAH6.0, from 1980 to present shows warming:
http://woodfortrees.org/graph/uah6/from:1980/plot/uah6/from:1980/trend

GISTEMP, from 2000 shows warming:
http://woodfortrees.org/graph/gistemp/from:2000/plot/gistemp/from:2000/trend

Even the skeptic Dr.Roy Spencer shows on his site (which you have linked to in this thread) that the UAH6.0 data shows warming from 1979:
http://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/


Yes but read the complete story

We have performed some calculations of the sensitivity of the final product to various assumptions in the processing, and find it to be fairly robust. Most importantly, through sensitivity experiments we find it is difficult to obtain a global LT trend substantially greater than +0.114 C/decade without making assumptions that cannot be easily justified.

Rockstar
12-31-17, 08:37 PM
14°C (59°f) here. It should be in the freezing area but you can almost walk outside without a jacket. Doesn't prove much on it's own though.
And global isn't the same as local but you don't want to get that.

Oh I do get it. Looking back at glacial boundaries of the last ice age North America had substantially more ice compared to Europe. Even back it was warmer where you live than was where I do now. :03: Its cool to see how the boundaries of the arctic air mass currently over the U.S. seemingly come close to those glacial boundaries. And no I'm not a weather man, scientist, or climate expert, and it wasn't meant to imply anything it was just an observation.

What I don't get is dogma

Dowly
01-01-18, 09:10 AM
Yes but read the complete story

We have performed some calculations of the sensitivity of the final product to various assumptions in the processing, and find it to be fairly robust. Most importantly, through sensitivity experiments we find it is difficult to obtain a global LT trend substantially greater than +0.114 C/decade without making assumptions that cannot be easily justified.

I did, and what they are talking about is the corrected trend for 1979-2014 in the v6 dataset they have produced.

Here is the paragraph above the one you posted:

The new LT trend of +0.114 C/decade (1979-2014) is 0.026 C/decade lower than the previous trend of +0.140 C/decade, but about 0.010 C/decade of that difference is due to lesser sensitivity of the new LT weighting function to direct surface emission by the land surface, which surface thermometer data suggests is warming more rapidly than the deep troposphere. The remaining 0.016 C/decade difference between the old and new LT product trends is mostly due to the new diurnal drift adjustment procedure and is well within our previously stated range of uncertainty for this product’s trend calculation (+/- 0.040 C/decade).http://www.drroyspencer.com/2015/04/version-6-0-of-the-uah-temperature-dataset-released-new-lt-trend-0-11-cdecade/

And more importantly, none of that shows cooling as you claimed in the initial post I replied to.

Dowly
01-01-18, 12:59 PM
You have probably heard that melting permafrost is a big contributor to increasing the levels of greenhouse gases in our atmosphere, and that melting permafrost may even cause an unstoppable acceleration of global warming.
New research, however, supported by the National Science Foundation (NSF), counters this widely-held scientific view that thawing permafrost uniformly accelerates atmospheric warming, indicating instead that certain arctic lakes store more greenhouse gases than they emit into the atmosphere.
The study, published this week in the journal Nature, focuses on thermokarst lakes, which occur as permafrost thaws and creates surface depressions that fill with melted fresh water, converting what was previously frozen land into lakes.
The research suggests that arctic thermokarst lakes are “net climate coolers” when observed over longer, millennial, time scales.

The study concludes saying:

Permafrost temperatures are increasing in Siberia, as in most of the
Arctic. Global annual air temperature increases as little as 1.5 C, less
than the projected 1.9 C–3.7 C air temperature increase by 2100 AD,
should lead to pronounced reductions in permafrost stability. Our
results suggest that if new, deep thermokarst lakes continue to form by
localized permafrost thaw, then primary productivity and sedimentation
in lakes, particularly tundra lakes where aquatic productivity is expected to increase, will compensate
for greenhouse emissions over millennial timescales if a permafrostforming climate persists in the region.

Thermokarst lakes depend on permafrost for an impermeable base
that constrains water drainage. Widespread permafrost loss, predicted as early as 2100 in some yedoma subregions, will ultimately
result in reduced lake and wetland abundance caused by drainage and
drying, facilitating rapid sediment carbon decomposition. Even partial
mineralization of the alas carbon pool, together with the surrounding
Pleistocene-yedoma carbon that remains may reverse the important role thatthermokarst lakes have had in stabilizing climateforthe past
5,000 years.https://news.uaf.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/WalterAnthony13560.pdf

Two years ago during the scorching summer of 2012, July 1936 lost its place on the leaderboard and July 2012 became the hottest month on record in the United States. Now, as if by magic, and according to NOAA’s own data, July 1936 is now the hottest month on record again. The past, present, and future all seems to be “adjustable” in NOAA’s world.Data is improved constantly. Yes, July 1936 was 0.02C warmer according to the new data at the time.

When future generations try to understand how the world got carried away around the end of the 20th century by the panic over global warming, few things will amaze them more than the part played in stoking up the scare by the fiddling of official temperature data. There was already much evidence of this seven years ago, when I was writing my history of the scare, The Real Global Warming Disaster. But now another damning example has been uncovered by Steven Goddard’s US blog Real Science, showing how shamelessly manipulated has been one of the world’s most influential climate records, the graph of US surface temperature records published by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA).
Goddard shows how, in recent years, NOAA’s US Historical Climatology Network (USHCN) has been “adjusting” its record by replacing real temperatures with data “fabricated” by computer models. The effect of this has been to downgrade earlier temperatures and to exaggerate those from recent decades, to give the impression that the Earth has been warming up much more than is justified by the actual data. In several posts headed “Data tampering at USHCN/GISS”, Goddard compares the currently published temperature graphs with those based only on temperatures measured at the time. These show that the US has actually been cooling since the Thirties, the hottest decade on record; whereas the latest graph, nearly half of it based on “fabricated” data, shows it to have been warming at a rate equivalent to more than 3 degrees centigrade per century.The temperatures were adjusted because there were factors that had changed. The type of instrument used to take the measurement, the location and time of day when the measurement was taken had all changed in this case which didn't provide consistent measurements in the long run. Nothing to do with "fabrication".

Read: http://berkeleyearth.org/understanding-adjustments-temperature-data/

August
01-01-18, 03:33 PM
Here is the reality of the situation:

http://www.easterbrook.ca/steve/wp-content/Pop-vs-emissions-sm1.jpg

Dowly
01-02-18, 07:04 AM
The maker of that graph says:

Notice that emissions grew much more sharply than population from 1950 onwards, with the only exceptions being during the economic recessions of the early 1980’s, early 1990’s, and around 2000. Since 2000, emissions have been growing at something close to double the population growth rate. So, I think that effectively explodes the myth that population growth alone explains emissions growth.

http://www.easterbrook.ca/steve/2009/06/population-growth-vs-emissions-growth/

Sean C
01-07-18, 07:40 PM
Here's what I find a bit humorous: when I remark [somewhat facetiously] that "I'll trust the climate science a little more when they can accurately predict the weather more than a week out.", I'm told that "Climate is entirely different form weather." But, now that we've gotten some extreme weather in some areas, some people are seeming to suggest that it is evidence of climate change. :O:

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm [mostly] kidding here. I understand the difference between climate and weather. I understand that weather is very complex and occurs over extremely short periods relative to climate and that climate is a more stable, long term trend of the type of weather in a given area. But I do wonder about graphics such as the one posted by Gargamel on page 4 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2533510&postcount=56) of this thread.

I mean sure, we have a record of global climate going back millions of years thanks to ice cores, etc., so we can develop a picture of the trend the climate has followed for these time periods. Now we are comparing that trend to an observed drastic change in a brief period of recent years. But, how sure are we that changes like the one we are seeing now didn't happen in the past? Is it at all possible that dramatic swings occurred in the past? Take another look at that graphic - between 16,000 and 15,500 B.C.E. A note there explains that spikes in climate may be "smoothed out [...] but only if they're small or brief enough". Small, short spikes are absolutely possible. Large, longer changes are unlikely.

But, even unlikely is very different from impossible. If we were to judge solely by our observations, the possibility of life elsewhere in our galaxy or even the universe seems unlikely. For all of our searching, we have found no evidence of life, intelligent or otherwise, anywhere other than right here on Earth. But do we then surmise that the possibility does not exist? Do we call off the search? Certainly not. As long as we cannot prove that something does not exist (which, contrary to a seemingly popular belief, is entirely scientifically possible), we must admit that its existence is possible. And for the sake of bettering our understanding of our universe, we keep searching.

Now, recently the popular question to pose to "climate change deniers"* has become "What do you have to gain from your position?" My answer would be: "The same thing that those in the media who are promoting the idea have to gain ... money." Regardless of what side you are on, you cannot deny that politicians and scientists benefit financially from the "man made climate change" theory. Scientists receive grants to study the global climate, and those who publish results contrary to the "accepted" narrative often become ostracized. Persona non grata ... laughing stocks. So the impetus is there to find in favor of the theory. Whether or not that has actually had a bearing on various individual studies is another argument.

Likewise, politicians propose and implement "carbon taxes": money that will be taken from individuals (don't think for a minute that businesses paying the tax will eat those losses themselves) and funneled into ever growing government budgets. And is the tax being paid by various entities globally proportional to the amount of pollution they're producing? IOW, are those deemed most responsible footing most of the bill?

Again, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the theory is wrong. I'm simply not totally convinced ... one way or the other. And I'm hesitant to jump on board with a plan that costs the taxpayer when the science, contrary to what has been asserted, is most certainly not settled. You can point out that the recent climate change is directly correlated with a recent rise in pollutant production by humans until the cows come home. I could also tell you how every time I pass gas there's a thunderstorm. Does that mean that my farts cause lightning? :haha: No, of course not. Correlation does not imply causation. In order to do that we'd have to somehow show that without those pollutants, the climate would not have changed. And how do we do that?

I'm not against a cleaner environment, more renewable fuels and a better, longer future for mankind. Who would be? Let's absolutely keep researching that. But does that end justify these means? What if we all just pay the tax and keep on polluting? Government gets richer and we all die anyway. And what if there's another cause? One that we could mitigate in other ways? One that we didn't see because we were all so sure we already knew the answer? Let's keep searching, too.

Just some things to think about...

*Personally, I don't know of anyone who denies the fact that the climate is changing ... just those who question what the main factor is which is driving it.

Highbury
01-07-18, 07:57 PM
Scientists or pseudo-scientists on either side can say whatever they like.

In the city where I live (Vancouver BC) the city is bordered by mountains on the North side. Big mountains, three of them have major ski areas and one was used in the 2010 Olympics.

When I was a kid they were covered with snow 365 days a year. Now they are not and haven't been for well over 10 years. They had to make and truck in snow for the olympics.

So people can argue about graphs, heat waves and cold spikes all they like. The change is visible.

Rockstar
01-07-18, 09:22 PM
But why is the big question. Is it because of too many cows farting in our pastures, co2 or a negative east Pacific decadel oscillation? Politicians find it easier to raise your taxes as the flit about promoting agendas to cure global warming if they make you think the warming is your fault. You can't cure a EPDO though its nature just doing what does.

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/522d4defe4b0a015e8d6c6a5/t/54b9086ae4b05e2e7fc48bc1/1421412465875/?format=1000w

Schroeder
01-08-18, 07:28 AM
Just to put things into relation:
http://blunt-science.tumblr.com/post/168519455931/blunt-science-last-week-tonight-with-john-oliver

Rockstar
01-08-18, 08:38 AM
“If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.”

― Albert Einstein


Natural oscillations in earths weather patterns, milankovitch climate cycles, decreased solar activity. Or more CO2 derp and cashing in on it by blaming cow farts, humans, big oil and intimidating six year olds into believing it?

Catfish
01-08-18, 08:40 AM
re Schroeder ^^
hmm you mean we can democratically discuss and vote for, or against, the climate change? :hmmm:
Would be an elegant solution, if it only worked :)


I am not sure about the link above, or better what it stands for:

a) does this represent the real statistics, where 2 percent of the population are deniers and 98 are convinced?

or

b) does it mean that John Oliver is biased and brings two deniers, and 98 persuaded scientists?

Because to me it seems more like a critic against Oliver (?) :hmmm:

It is a bit like those "Like" buttons under political online reports. Do you click "Like" for a good article, or because you like the opinion expressed in the article, or do you like the person the article is about?

Rockstar
01-08-18, 09:11 AM
Real statistics? 97 percent has gone up to 98 now? Leaving only two percent left with their brains still in tact? According to this article its an outright lie.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexepstein/2015/01/06/97-of-climate-scientists-agree-is-100-wrong/#185aba103f9f

Catfish
01-08-18, 09:24 AM
^
a) this is not what my question is about.

b) it does not matter how much people or even scientists agree or not. Climate change is not subject to an opinion. :D

Schroeder
01-08-18, 09:31 AM
a) does this represent the real statistics, where 2 percent of the population are deniers and 98 are convinced?
? The 96 guys are scientists and it shows the proportion of scientists believing in man made climate change vs. those that don't. At least that was how I interpreted it and it's also in accordance with numbers I've heard earlier. Though the gifs are a bit unclear to whether the deniers are scientists too.

Catfish
01-08-18, 10:32 AM
Ah ok.. i think i tend to complicate things where's no need :oops:

Mr Quatro
01-08-18, 11:29 AM
“If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.”

― Albert Einstein


Natural oscillations in earths weather patterns, milankovitch climate cycles, decreased solar activity. Or more CO2 derp and cashing in on it by blaming cow farts, humans, big oil and intimidating six year olds into believing it?

Very funny :O: and also thank you for bringing up the subject in today's subsim calss plus all of the trouble you have gone to to explain this on going serious situation that may or may not affect our generation, but surely will affect our children's children.

What's next?

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/20/science/managing-planet-earth-experts-scaling-back-their-estimates-world-population.html

Demographers can agree generally on a few measurable facts and some trends. The world's population, now 6.2 billion, quadrupled in the 20th century, and changed in drastic ways. In 1900, 86 percent of the world's people lived in rural areas and about 14 percent in urban areas. By 2000, urban communities were home to 47 percent of the population, with 53 percent still in the countryside.

Between now and 2030, when the global population is expected to reach about eight billion, almost all the growth will be in cities. But urbanization is not necessarily a bad thing for the environment, said Dr. Joseph Chamie, director of the United Nations' population division.

Mr Quatro
01-08-18, 11:30 AM
Ah ok.. i think i tend to complicate things where's no need :oops:

Did you raise your hand first? That's all you have to do in here :D

Dowly
01-08-18, 02:19 PM
Real statistics? 97 percent has gone up to 98 now? Leaving only two percent left with their brains still in tact? According to this article its an outright lie.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexepstein/2015/01/06/97-of-climate-scientists-agree-is-100-wrong/#185aba103f9f
Cook et al.(2013) actually contains two different ways they came up with two (slightly) different figures.

3.1. Endorsement percentages from abstract ratings

Among abstracts that expressed a position on AGW, 97.1% endorsed the scientific consensus. Among scientists who expressed a position on AGW in their abstract, 98.4% endorsed the consensus.

3.2. Endorsement percentages from self-ratings

We emailed 8547 authors an invitation to rate their own papers and received 1200 responses (a 14% response rate). After excluding papers that were not peer-reviewed, not climate-related or had no abstract, 2142 papers received self-ratings from 1189 authors. The self-rated levels of endorsement are shown in table 4. Among self-rated papers that stated a position on AGW, 97.2% endorsed the consensus. Among self-rated papers not expressing a position on AGW in the abstract, 53.8% were self-rated as endorsing the consensus. Among respondents who authored a paper expressing a view on AGW, 96.4% endorsed the consensus.Source: http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/8/2/024024

There are over half dozen papers using different methods that show there is a overwhelming scientific consensus that man-made global warming is happening.

Rockstar
01-08-18, 02:46 PM
Yes Dowly 'skeptical science' is one of the sources of that famed 97% or as Catfish now claims 98%. The article I linked too addresses how he came up with that number and its utter bull poop how he did. It also links to the scientists 'skeptical scientist' used for his research and even they said their work and opinion had been misrepresented or manipulated.



http://www.populartechnology.net/2013/05/97-study-falsely-classifies-scientists.html

The 97 percent claim is a deliberate misrepresentation designed to intimidate the public—and numerous scientists whose papers were classified by Cook protested:
“Cook survey included 10 of my 122 eligible papers. 5/10 were rated incorrectly. 4/5 were rated as endorse rather than neutral.”
—Dr. Richard Tol
“That is not an accurate representation of my paper . . .”
—Dr. Craig Idso
“Nope . . . it is not an accurate representation.”
—Dr. Nir Shaviv
“Cook et al. (2013) is based on a strawman argument . . .”
—Dr. Nicola Scafetta
Think about how many times you hear that 97 percent or some similar figure thrown around. It’s based on crude manipulation propagated by people whose ideological agenda it serves. It is a license to intimidate.
It’s time to revoke that license.

Contrary to popular belief John Oliver and Stephen Colbert are not climate scientists they are talk show hosts and comedians who make a living running their mouth. Using for their material opinions based on someone else's opinion that misrepresented the work and opinion of real climate scientists.

Dowly
01-08-18, 03:19 PM
Yes Dowly 'skeptical science' is one of the sources of that famed 97% or as Catfish now claims 98%.One of the authors founded Skeptical Science, the paper itself was peer-reviewed and published in Environmental Research Letters.

The article I linked too addresses how he came up with that number and its utter bull poop how he did. It also links to the scientists 'skeptical scientist' used for his research and even they said their work and opinion had been misrepresented or manipulated.Which is why I pointed out they had two ways, the second corroborated the first, and again there are more papers that show the same kind of results of overwhelming consensus.

Contrary to popular belief John Oliver and Stephen Colbert are not climate scientists they are talk show hosts and comedians who make a living running their mouth.He says after posting a number of articles and blog posts written by people who are not climate scientists. :roll:

Rockstar
01-08-18, 04:05 PM
One of the authors founded Skeptical Science, the paper itself was peer-reviewed and published in Environmental Research Letters.

Which is why I pointed out they had two ways, the second corroborated the first, and again there are more papers that show the same kind of results of overwhelming consensus.


The second report corroborated the first, really?

You do know what it means when you say the second report 'corroborated' the first? The word corroborate means to verify, authenticate, give support too, validates, upholds, backs up or gives credence to the first. I have a real hard time understanding how anyone can support such corroboration. After its been found those scientists arbitrarily pooled into the first reports famed 97% have stated their work has been misrepresented and manipulated.

Meanwhile 15 inches of snow blankets Sahara desert
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/901733/Sahara-Desert-snow-Ain-Sefra-Algeria-pictures-photos

Dowly
01-09-18, 04:38 AM
You do know what it means when you say the second report 'corroborated' the first?I do, yes. Thanks for asking.

After its been found those scientists arbitrarily pooled into the first reports famed 97% have stated their work has been misrepresented and manipulated.Six scientists have come out saying their papers were miscategorized (not manipulated, as you say), out of 29,083 authors that's .02%.

Catfish
01-09-18, 06:09 AM
^^ Regarding snow in the Sahara, it is also common knowledge since decades, that during a climate change to a hotter scenario, it first gets colder due to reasons me and others have already explained numerous times (keyword cloud coverage).
OT: The Sahara was indeed green some 2000 years ago, with forests and lots of animals in North Africa, elephants, rhinos and all that, and the uncontrolled overexploitation and denuding (wood needed for construction and those fleets led to its current situation).
As it is also well-known, the temperatures in a desert usually fall to -20 degrees Celsius at night, and rise to well over 50 degrees Celsius during the day. That a cloud buildup due to more evaporation through rising temperatures leads to rain and snow at night cannot really surprise.

(And just like with the "reasons" for brexit there with its "unelected eurocrats" (wrong), "net paying w/o getting it back" (wrong), "no border control" (wrong) and so on i will not explain all this again. Because it is of no use, you post something with evidence and links, and others prefer to overread or forget it, and again post some Express or Fox media links a few weeks later to once again "prove" their point of view. What the Express, Fox News, Breitbart, Wattsup etc. publish is not evidence and not even a reasonable point of view, but a platform to spread right-wing propaganda, desinformation, xenophobioa and hate. CNN or Washington post or even Reuters may be wrong now and then, but this is at least journalism and research. This is not what those soapbox heroes like Bannon or Farage have in mind. )

Rockstar
01-09-18, 10:24 AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/#19f4e6ee499b

Either through idiocy, ignorance, or both, global warming alarmists and the liberal media have been reporting that the Cook study shows a 97 percent consensus that humans are causing a global warming crisis. However, that was clearly not the question surveyed.
Investigative journalists at Popular Technology looked into precisely which papers were classified within Cook’s asserted 97 percent. The investigative journalists found Cook and his colleagues strikingly classified papers by such prominent, vigorous skeptics as Willie Soon, Craig Idso, Nicola Scafetta, Nir Shaviv, Nils-Axel Morner and Alan Carlin as supporting the 97-percent consensus.

Cook and his colleagues, for example, classified a peer-reviewed paper by scientist Craig Idso as explicitly supporting the ‘consensus’ position on global warming “without minimizing” the asserted severity of global warming. When Popular Technology asked Idso whether this was an accurate characterization of his paper, Idso responded, “That is not an accurate representation of my paper. The papers examined how the rise in atmospheric CO2 could be inducing a phase advance in the spring portion of the atmosphere's seasonal CO2 cycle. Other literature had previously claimed a measured advance was due to rising temperatures, but we showed that it was quite likely the rise in atmospheric CO2 itself was responsible for the lion's share of the change. It would be incorrect to claim that our paper was an endorsement of CO2-induced global warming."
When Popular Technology asked physicist Nicola Scafetta whether Cook and his colleagues accurately classified one of his peer-reviewed papers as supporting the ‘consensus’ position, Scafetta similarly criticized the Skeptical Science classification.
“Cook et al. (2013) is based on a straw man argument because it does not correctly define the IPCC AGW theory, which is NOT that human emissions have contributed 50%+ of the global warming since 1900 but that almost 90-100% of the observed global warming was induced by human emission,” Scafetta responded. “What my papers say is that the IPCC [United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change] view is erroneous because about 40-70% of the global warming observed from 1900 to 2000 was induced by the sun.”
“What it is observed right now is utter dishonesty by the IPCC advocates. … They are gradually engaging into a metamorphosis process to save face. … And in this way they will get the credit that they do not merit, and continue in defaming critics like me that actually demonstrated such a fact since 2005/2006,” Scafetta added.
Astrophysicist Nir Shaviv similarly objected to Cook and colleagues claiming he explicitly supported the ‘consensus’ position about human-induced global warming. Asked if Cook and colleagues accurately represented his paper, Shaviv responded, “Nope... it is not an accurate representation. The paper shows that if cosmic rays are included in empirical climate sensitivity analyses, then one finds that different time scales consistently give a low climate sensitivity. i.e., it supports the idea that cosmic rays affect the climate and that climate sensitivity is low. This means that part of the 20th century [warming] should be attributed to the increased solar activity and that 21st century warming under a business as usual scenario should be low (about 1°C).”
“I couldn't write these things more explicitly in the paper because of the refereeing, however, you don't have to be a genius to reach these conclusions from the paper," Shaviv added.
To manufacture their misleading asserted consensus, Cook and his colleagues also misclassified various papers as taking “no position” on human-caused global warming. When Cook and his colleagues determined a paper took no position on the issue, they simply pretended, for the purpose of their 97-percent claim, that the paper did not exist.
Morner, a sea level scientist, told Popular Technology that Cook classifying one of his papers as “no position” was "Certainly not correct and certainly misleading. The paper is strongly against AGW [anthropogenic global warming], and documents its absence in the sea level observational facts. Also, it invalidates the mode of sea level handling by the IPCC."
Soon, an astrophysicist, similarly objected to Cook classifying his paper as “no position.”
"I am sure that this rating of no position on AGW by CO2 is nowhere accurate nor correct,” said Soon.
“I hope my scientific views and conclusions are clear to anyone that will spend time reading our papers. Cook et al. (2013) is not the study to read if you want to find out about what we say and conclude in our own scientific works,” Soon emphasized.
Viewing the Cook paper in the best possible light, Cook and colleagues can perhaps claim a small amount of wiggle room in their classifications because the explicit wording of the question they analyzed is simply whether humans have caused some global warming. By restricting the question to such a minimalist, largely irrelevant question in the global warming debate and then demanding an explicit, unsolicited refutation of the assertion in order to classify a paper as a ‘consensus’ contrarian, Cook and colleagues misleadingly induce people to believe 97 percent of publishing scientists believe in a global warming crisis when that is simply not the case.
Misleading the public about consensus opinion regarding global warming, of course, is precisely what the Cook paper sought to accomplish. This is a tried and true ruse perfected by global warming alarmists. Global warming alarmists use their own biased, subjective judgment to misclassify published papers according to criteria that is largely irrelevant to the central issues in the global warming debate. Then, by carefully parsing the language of their survey questions and their published results, the alarmists encourage the media and fellow global warming alarmists to cite these biased, subjective, totally irrelevant surveys as conclusive evidence for the lie that nearly all scientists believe humans are creating a global warming crisis.
These biased, misleading, and totally irrelevant “surveys” form the best “evidence” global warming alarmists can muster in the global warming debate. And this truly shows how embarrassingly feeble their alarmist theory really is.

Mr Quatro
01-09-18, 10:56 AM
Many years ago (I forget how many) Al Gore said that people were causing the global warming problem and that it wouldn't snow for the next twenty years.

I couldn't find that quote, but I found this:


Climate Change: Where is the Science?

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/06/climate_change_where_is_the_science.html

So, how is that predictive power working out so far? And more to the point, what effect have those results had on the public's confidence in the supposedly infallible science and scientists? In 1999 they said that warming would wipe out the Great Barrier Reef. In 2000 they said that Britain would no longer see snow during winter. In 2001 they predicted starvation from failing grain crops in India. From 2003 to 2005 they concluded that the drought then occurring in Australia would be permanent and Sydney dwellers would have nothing to drink. In 2006 they predicted unprecedented severe cyclones and hurricanes. In 2008 they said that by 2013 there would be no more arctic ice cap; that we would be swimming with the otters at the North Pole.

None of these predictions have come to pass. The Reef is still there, as is the arctic ice. Children make more snowmen than ever in Britain and the rains returned to Australia with a vengeance.

Dowly
01-09-18, 12:01 PM
These biased, misleading, and totally irrelevant “surveys” form the best “evidence” global warming alarmists can muster in the global warming debate. And this truly shows how embarrassingly feeble their alarmist theory really is.So, let me see, if I got this right: Man-made climate change/global warming is not true because a survey miscategorized (allegedly) abstracts from six (.02%) people (all of whom are skeptics, btw)?

What about their second method? You know, the one where they contacted authors to self-rate their papers and came up with very similar results? What about the other surveys that all point to overwhelming consensus? Let's just throw all the thousands of papers on climate change from the past 100+ years to the bin while we're at it.

Six abstracts were miscategorized (allegedly). The science is settled! There's no man-made global warming!

Rockstar
01-09-18, 06:19 PM
The '97% consensus' article is poorly conceived, poorly designed and poorly executed. It obscures the complexities of the climate issue and it is a sign of the desperately poor level of public and policy debate in this country [UK] that the energy minister should cite it."

- Mike Hulme, Ph.D. Professor of Climate Change, University of East Anglia (UEA)


Politicians love Cooks famed 97% consensus and so too their weak minded followers

Rockstar
01-09-18, 06:20 PM
0.2 percent? If only it was so simple

Summary: Cook et al. (2013) attempted to categorize 11,944 abstracts [brief summaries] of papers (not entire papers) to their level of endorsement of AGW and found 7930 (66%) held no position on AGW. While only 65 papers (0.5%) explicitly endorsed and quantified AGW as +50% (humans are the primary cause). A later analysis by Legates et al. (2013) found there to be only 41 papers (0.3%) that supported this definition. Cook et al.'s methodology was so fatally flawed that they falsely classified skeptic papers as endorsing the 97% consensus, apparently believing to know more about the papers than their authors. The second part of Cook et al. (2013), the author self-ratings simply confirmed the worthlessness of their methodology, as they were not representative of the sample since only 4% of the authors (1189 of 29,083) rated their own papers and of these 63% disagreed with the abstract ratings.


I can point out why it snowed in the Sahara I don't need to intimidate six year olds into believing its their fault because what someone's flawed report says. Way to many variables in such a dynamic thing called our climate. For you or anyone to presume to think they have the end all be all answer that its man made warming I think is folly.

Rockstar
01-09-18, 06:34 PM
http://www.populartechnology.net/2014/12/97-articles-refuting-97-consensus.html

Methodology: The data (11,944 abstracts) used in Cook et al. (2013) came from searching the Web of Science database for results containing the key phrases "global warming" or "global climate change" regardless of what type of publication they appeared in or the context those phrases were used. Only a small minority of these were actually published in climate science journals, instead the publications included ones like the International Journal Of Vehicle Design, Livestock Science and Waste Management. The results were not even analyzed by scientists but rather amateur environmental activists with credentials such as "zoo volunteer" (co-author Bärbel Winkler) and "scuba diving" (co-author Rob Painting) who were chosen by the lead author John Cook (a cartoonist) because they all comment on his deceptively named, partisan alarmist blog 'Skeptical Science' and could be counted on to push his manufactured talking point.

Peer-review: Cook et al. (2013) was published in the journal Environmental Research Letters (ERL) which conveniently has multiple outspoken alarmist scientists on its editorial board (e.g. Peter Gleick and Stefan Rahmstorf) where the paper likely received substandard "pal-review" instead of the more rigorous peer-review.

Update: The paper has since been refuted five times in the scholarly literature by Legates et al. (2013), Tol (2014a), Tol (2014b), Dean (2015) and Tol (2016).

* All the other "97% consensus" studies: e.g. Doran & Zimmerman (2009), Anderegg et al. (2010) and Oreskes (2004) have been refuted by peer-review.

Cook's a.k.a. "Mr. Skeptical Science" expertise is in cognitive science which is the interdisciplinary scientific study of the mind and its processes. It examines what cognition is, what it does and how it works.. HE's NOT EVEN A CLIMATE SCIENTIST NOT EVEN A FREAKING WEATHERMAN ON THE LOCAL NEWS yet everyone falls head over heels for his internet word searches. Though I'm sure he meant well his work in climate change it seems, is crap.

Torvald Von Mansee
01-10-18, 12:15 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-e7JCkVCgxyk/UXYZYi-sM2I/AAAAAAAABIY/5Whb7fwBLLE/s1600/better+world.jpg

Also, I can't believe someone cited American Thinker as a source..

Catfish
01-10-18, 03:05 AM
[...] Also, I can't believe someone cited American Thinker as a source..

So true.. well this is where all the new self-proclaimed experts have their home.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/American_Thinker :03:
Regarding the article of the "thinker" mentioning the Great Barrier Reef and that there would be no problem at all – short search:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/great-barrier-reef-dying-coral-bleaching-global-warming-australia-climate-change-a7761351.html
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/29/coral-bleaching-on-great-barrier-reef-worse-than-expected-surveys-show
https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-04-18/scientists-say-great-barrier-reef-officially-dying
a.s.o.
And this is only one of the "Thinker"'s statements.


Not to bore you, it's only the MPI and i am sure Trump knows it all better, so just for your amusement about what the sun or CO2 has to do with global warming, or not (Google translation from here https://www.mpg.de/forschung/bedeutung-sonne-globale-klima), quote of the last two paragrahphs:


" [...] Two researchers from the MPI for Solar System Research have calculated the three major parameters of the Sun, their total radiation, their share in the ultraviolet range and their magnetic field (which determines the intensity of cosmic radiation) for the last 150 years using current measurements and the latest models.

They conclude that the changes in the sun have kept pace with climate variability for much of the time, suggesting that the sun has had an impact on the climate in the past. How strong this influence was is the subject of further research. It is clear, however, that since about 1980, the total radiation of the sun, its ultraviolet radiation, as well as the cosmic radiation has fluctuated with the 11-year solar cycle, but has not significantly increased.
In contrast, the earth has continued to warm up during this period. This excludes the sun as the cause of the current global warming.


These findings place the question of the relationship between the fluctuations of solar activity and the climate on Earth into the focus of current research. On Earth, the influence of the sun - in addition to the emission of the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide from the combustion of coal, gas and oil - plays an increasing role as the cause of global warming observed since 1900.
Exactly how big this role is must still be explored, because even after our new findings on the fluctuations of the solar magnetic field, the strong increase in the Earth's temperature since 1980 is attributable, above all, to the greenhouse effect caused by carbon dioxide," says Prof. Sami K. Solanki, solar physicist and director at the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research."


I guess the best way for Trump is to stop scientific research on this matter altogether, or put his own "experts" in charge. See Pruitt and the Environmental Protection Agency EPA.
http://mashable.com/2017/02/03/trump-epa-climate-website-changes/#kMzrgF_KxSq1
And as if crippling the EPA was not enough, it will be closed entirely at the end of 2018:
http://mashable.com/2017/02/15/bill-would-abolish-epa-in-2018/#WHiPDJXxykqP
Unbelievable.

Dowly
01-10-18, 02:06 PM
The '97% consensus' article is poorly conceived, poorly designed and poorly executed. It obscures the complexities of the climate issue and it is a sign of the desperately poor level of public and policy debate in this country [UK] that the energy minister should cite it."

- Mike Hulme, Ph.D. Professor of Climate Change, University of East Anglia (UEA)
Indeed, he does say that.

He also endorses AGW, disagreeing with your overall position.

***

0.2 percent? If only it was so simple
Apparently, it indeed is not. The figure is 0.02%, not 0.2%

Summary: Cook et al. (2013) attempted to categorize 11,944 abstracts [brief summaries] of papers (not entire papers) to their level of endorsement of AGW and found 7930 (66%) held no position on AGW. While only 65 papers (0.5%) explicitly endorsed and quantified AGW as +50% (humans are the primary cause).Where does the 65 papers (abstracts) come from? Cook et al.'s data (http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/8/2/024024/media/erl460291datafile.txt) shows 42 abstracts.
Why ignore the other categories completely? That only 42 abstracts explicitly say AGW is the primary driver of global warming, doesn't mean that as a whole only those 42 papers out of the ~12,000 endorse AGW. It plain and simple means that the other authors don't mention it in their abstracts.

The second part of Cook et al. (2013), the author self-ratings simply confirmed the worthlessness of their methodology, as they were not representative of the sample since only 4% of the authors (1189 of 29,083) rated their own papers and of these 63% disagreed with the abstract ratings.They didn't contact all 29,083 authors, but a smaller sample of 8547. Comparing the resulting sample size (1189 authors) of the second part to their sample size for the first part is misleading.
And no, 63% did not disagree with the abstract ratings. Here are the figures from the second part:

All 2142 papers (incl. no AGW position):
Endorse: 62.7% (1342 papers)
No position: 35.5% (761 papers)
Reject: 1.8% (39 papers)

Excluding no AGW position (1381 papers):
Endorse: 97.2% (1342 papers)
Reject: 2.8% (39 papers)

***


Only a small minority of these were actually published in climate science journals, instead the publications included ones like the International Journal Of Vehicle Design, Livestock Science and Waste Management.
Google search for "climate change journals" gives 15 journals at the top, let's see how many papers from those 15 are in Cook's paper.

Climatic Change: 250
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America (PNAS): 157
Global Change Biology: 273
Global and Planetary Change: 81
Journal of Climate: 202
Global Environmental Change: 54
Climate Dynamics: 104
Climate Research: 86
Nature Climate Change: 3
Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society: 31
Geophysical Research Letters: 304
Climate and Development: 0
Nature: 125
Science: 82
International Journal of Climatology: 75

Total: 1,827

"Only a small minority"

Peer-review: Cook et al. (2013) was published in the journal Environmental Research Letters (ERL) which conveniently has multiple outspoken alarmist scientists on its editorial board (e.g. Peter Gleick and Stefan Rahmstorf) where the paper likely received substandard "pal-review" instead of the more rigorous peer-review.Baseless accusation is not an argument of any sort.

Rockstar
01-10-18, 09:45 PM
The fact of the matter is the 97% consensus report has been shown to be flawed confirmed by actual climate scientists. Therefore to use the 97% as your sole argument to promote man made global warming is flawed. My position has been that man made warming is not the end all be all answer to the warming trend. I have agreed the planet is warming but I also understand there are other factors involved which cause a planet to warm. I brought to you Atlantic and Pacific Decadal Oscillations, Milankovitch Climate Cycles and solar activity which some say has caused 40to 50% percent of it alone.

And true to form the only response batted about by here by the alarmists is the old 97 percent consensus derp based on flawed 1980's data that its all man made.

I read the NOAA periodically, 2017 is I think in the top three warmest years. But they discuss every factor involved and its much more than what your beloved 97% consensus report scares you into thinking it is.

Catfish
01-11-18, 03:04 AM
The fact of the matter is the 97% consensus report has been shown to be flawed confirmed by actual climate scientists.


Wrong, and proven wrong. But i guess that even with only 95 percent of scientists supporting man-made influence and greenhouse gases as the driving factor, this will never be accepted by wingnuts. :03:

Since the Milankovich cycles have been used again and again for being responsible for climate change:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles
So yes and no, but if you compare ice cores of the last million years none shows such a strong rise of the CO2 level in such a short time.

Plants use CO2 and sunlight to produce energy, while giving O2 away as a byproduct. When plants die and decay, they give away the CO2 they have stored during their lifetime.
So, O2 versus CO2 level = even.

A lot of those plants did not decay properly, due to flooding or sediment cover that took away the oxygen necessary to "recycle" them. This led to a higher O2 concentration, in the atmosphere.
When plants first appeared and became so abundant that the O2 level in the atmosphere rose, this was one of the first crises in the earth creatures' history. Because O2 was toxic, for them.

After millions of years, we have a lot of O2 in the atmosphere, there have been times where it was more, and where it has been less. The CO2 has also fluctuated accordingly, always with major implications and impact to life on earth.
While a rise in O2 led to e.g. insects being able to grow larger due to their limited trachea system, a drastically rising CO2 level has led to evolutionary crises (read: mass extinctions). Always.


[...] I have agreed the planet is warming but I also understand there are other factors involved which cause a planet to warm. I brought to you Atlantic and Pacific Decadal Oscillations, Milankovitch Climate Cycles and solar activity which some say has caused 40to 50% percent of it alone. No. Not solar activity. And it is 28 percent at best, not 40 to 50. But even then, the recent rise in CO2 levels stems from us "draining the earth's batteries" ("fossil fuels" is nothing else than stored sun energy), by burning the fossil "fuel" (coal and oil), that, which' creation under anaerobe circumstances has taken CO2 out of the atmosphere while pushing O2 levels, sets free all the CO2 that has been taken out of the cycle.

It is really that simple: If we set free the CO2 that has accumulated over millions of years in natural deposits by lack of O2 able to oxidise it (immensely large swamps being covered by water and sediment, covering plant material and letting no oxygen get in there), so that the dying plant material was withdrawn from the cycle, we now create a man-made CO2 crisis that has, in the past, almost solely been triggered by volcanic activity.

If CO2 levels rise, plants are being able to compensate this for a short time. But man denudes areas the size of Germany per year. Next, the frozen methane hydrates in the russian tundra may thaw, which puts CO2 to shame regarding greenhouse gases; and this will be a self-fueling effect.
(There are also large methane-hydrate depots under the Mexican gulf's ocean floor.)
Third, a lot of CO2 is being bound in CaCO3 in the oceans, certain plants, plankton and living reefs being able to compensate a CO2 abundance, too, for a while. However due to ocean pollution and rising temperatures, those reefs are now dying. (And yes, the Great Barrier Reef is indeed dying, whatever the "American Thinker" and certain other "media" may fabricate).
Due to the above and some other influence, the "ocean buffer" of being able to collect and witdraw CO2 from the atmosphere is at its limit. Further rising ocean temperatures will even dissolve the accumulated CaCO3 and release the CO2 into the atmosphere.

So if volcanic activity, the earth's precession and a general natural fluctuation of the sun's activity (ok) has influenced life on earth, why should we now try to repeat that with our human "methods", and idiocy? The existing equilibrium is weak enough. Or better, was.


Also two posts north from here, regarding the sun's influence:

"They conclude that the changes in the sun have kept pace with climate variability for much of the time, suggesting that the sun has had an impact on the climate in the past. How strong this influence was is the subject of further research.
It is clear, however, that since about 1980, the total radiation of the sun, its ultraviolet radiation, as well as the cosmic radiation has fluctuated with the 11-year solar cycle, but has not significantly increased.
In contrast, the earth has continued to warm up during this period. This excludes the sun as the cause of the current global warming."


"On Earth, the influence of the sun - in addition to the emission of the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide from the combustion of coal, gas and oil - plays an increasing role as the cause of global warming observed since 1900.
Exactly how big this role is must still be explored, because even after our new findings on the fluctuations of the solar magnetic field, the strong increase in the Earth's temperature since 1980 is attributable, above all, to the greenhouse effect caused by carbon dioxide," says Prof. Sami K. Solanki, solar physicist and director at the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research."



Another thing. I can perfectly understand coal miners wanting to have a job. I can also understand the oil industry, jobs, money and all. But do not try to make up fake arguments to justify perfectly understandable and necessary human needs. We ask the wrong questions and give fabricated answers.
This is not the way to solve problems.

FullMetalADCAP
01-11-18, 05:07 AM
Human overpopulation is the problem. That's to be expected with 7.5+ billion (and growing alarmingly fast) humans inhabiting it. And I don't see much being done to cull back our growth but something needs to be done about it and soon.

I'm not talking wide scale forced abortions or killing anyone who is currently living. What needs to be done is a globalized multi-nation joint effort between lots of wealthy nations contributing money to a sole fund distributing entity (the UN?) that pays individual people around the world to have their reproductive organs snipped or tied BEFORE having children. Anyone who's had a child would not qualify.

Offer these sacrificing volunteers the procedure for free and in sterile environments and offer them major incentives in life for having it done, like free college education and/or a monthly stipend paid to them for life for their sacrifice. Let's say $1000 a month for life for their sacrifice plus a free college education? Gotta make the incentive worth it to people to get them to sign up. And maybe $1000 is too much? Might have to start at $100 a month and free college education and see how many bite. If not enough do then raise it. These people would be giving up something major in life for the betterment of tomorrow's world. I think it's important they are rewarded/compensated handsomely for their sacrifice but within reason also. Since there's so many people alive the money amount might have to be lowered, especially if there's too many volunteers.

The goal is to reduce the overall world population to 1 billion souls total. I think that's more than enough humans for this planet. Imagine the impact that would have on the planet to have 6.5 billion less humans polluting it and killing off all the animals? It would give the billion who live a lot more resources to survive and more space to themselves and the planet would be able to repair itself.

And once the goal is met, the UN (or whoever runs the program) would stop running the program and reintroduce it every so many generations to keep population overgrowth at bay and keep the world population size to roughly 1 billion souls.

Dowly
01-11-18, 06:47 AM
Therefore to use the 97% as your sole argument to promote man made global warming is flawed.
My, what a big straw man you have there, it would be shame if something was to happen to it.

Rockstar
01-11-18, 09:12 AM
The fact that its just a few here and politicians who continue to glom on to and defend the 97% consensus as if it were gospel truth says a lot in my book. Defending like a bunch of religious zealots even after its been shown to be "fatally flawed". Defending it with cartoons and for some odd reasons bringing up accusation that Trump followers are anti science, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

The '97% consensus' article is poorly conceived, poorly designed and poorly executed. It obscures the complexities of the climate issue and it is a sign of the desperately poor level of public and policy debate in this country [UK] that the energy minister should cite it."

- Mike Hulme, Ph.D. Professor of Climate Change, University of East Anglia (UEA)


Agnotology is the study of how ignorance arises via circulation of misinformation calculated to mislead. Legates et al.

Catfish
01-11-18, 09:49 AM
I give a [expletive here] on the opinion or "democratic poll" on the subject of climate chage. Not even Trump and Pruitt will be able to "vote" it away, not even using methods like trying to shut up scientists by force, or closing the EPA at the end of 2018.


What is this about the "97 percent"?

No, it indeed is not 97 percent of the scientific community who says or is convinced that climate change is man-made!
It is 97 percent of climate scientists who have this opinion. And (shocking) it probably may be even less. So? How much?



From Forbes:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/uhenergy/2016/12/14/fact-checking-the-97-consensus-on-anthropogenic-climate-change/2/



"Given these results, it is clear that support among scientists for human-caused climate change is below 97%. Most studies including specialties other than climatologists find support in the range of 80% to 90%. The 97% consensus of scientists, when used without limitation to climate scientists, is false.




In the strict sense, the 97% consensus is false, even when limited to climate scientists. The 2016 Cook review found the consensus to be “shared by 90%–100% of publishing climate scientists.” One survey found it to be 84%. Continuing to claim 97% support is deceptive. I find the 97% consensus of climate scientists to be overstated."


Again:
The 97% consensus of scientists,[B] when used without limitation to climate scientists, is false.
Make it 90 to 96 percent then for normal and climate scientists? With one study of all, reaching 84 percent?
“From a broader perspective, it doesn’t matter if the consensus number is 90% or 100%.”

Does that "prove" in any way that man-made climate change by burning hydrocarbon or carbon is non-existent?!
You (ab)use the existence of a minority to prove the majority wrong, or what?

Rockstar
01-11-18, 10:21 AM
The “97 percent” statistic first appeared prominently in a 2009 study by University of Illinois master’s student Kendall Zimmerman and her adviser, Peter Doran. Based on a two-question online survey, Zimmerman and Doran concluded that “the debate on the authenticity of global warming and the role played by human activity is largely nonexistent among those who understand the nuances and scientific bases of long-term climate processes” — even though only 5 percent of respondents, or about 160 scientists, were climate scientists. In fact, the “97 percent” statistic was drawn from an even smaller subset: the 79 respondents who were both self-reported climate scientists and had “published more than 50% of their recent peer-reviewed papers on the subject of climate change.” These 77 scientists agreed that global temperatures had generally risen since 1800, and that human activity is a “significant contributing factor.”

Skeptical Science (subtitle: “Getting skeptical about global warming skepticism.”). In an analysis of 12,000 abstracts, he found “a 97% consensus among papers taking a position on the cause of global warming in the peer-reviewed literature that humans are responsible.” “Among papers taking a position” is a significant qualifier: Only 34 percent of the papers Cook examined expressed any opinion about anthropogenic climate change at all. Since 33 percent appeared to endorse anthropogenic climate change, he divided 33 by 34 and — voilŕ — 97 percent! When David Legates, a University of Delaware professor who formerly headed the university’s Center for Climatic Research, recreated Cook’s study, he found that “only 41 papers — 0.3 percent of all 11,944 abstracts or 1.0 percent of the 4,014 expressing an opinion, and not 97.1 percent,” endorsed what Cook claimed. Several scientists whose papers were included in Cook’s initial sample also protested that they had been misinterpreted. “Significant questions about anthropogenic influences on climate remain,” Legates concluded.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/425232/climate-change-no-its-not-97-percent-consensus-ian-tuttle


Who knew that for some, 97 is the answer to the meaning of life, the universe, and everything.

Rockstar
01-11-18, 11:27 AM
Btw catfish your theory that says it will get cooler before it gets warmer, where did you get that?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-cold-snap-freak-nature-quick-analysis-finds-140502572.html

The study, based on observations and statistics, did not find evidence for a popular scientific theory that links melting Arctic sea ice to blasts of cold air escaping the top of the world.
The theory, which is still debated by scientists but gaining credence among many, is based on pressure changes and other factors that cause the jet stream to plunge and weather systems to get stuck. But the latest analysis didn't find such evidence.
Three scientists whose studies have connected Arctic warming to changes in extreme events disagree.
Because such atmospheric pressure changes happen occasionally, quick studies that rely on averages miss extreme events like the recent cold spell, said James Overland of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration who supports the theory.


I guess the 1970's global ice age theory scare must have been the one you were referring too huh?


Deep Though was wrong for some 97 IS the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything.

Buddahaid
01-11-18, 11:14 PM
The really weird part about the debate if man is responsible, or not, is moot to me since I don't think anyone can argue man doesn't impact his environment. Just look out a window at random and count the garbage you see.

So what is wrong about putting some thought and practice into place to minimize it? Even simple steps at the smallest level have a huge overall impact when followed by billions.

u crank
01-12-18, 06:15 AM
The really weird part about the debate if man is responsible, or not, is moot to me since I don't think anyone can argue man doesn't impact his environment. Just look out a window at random and count the garbage you see.

So what is wrong about putting some thought and practice into place to minimize it? Even simple steps at the smallest level have a huge overall impact when followed by billions.

Good point. I'm not sure where I stand on the issue of alarmist/deniers but I see no reason to add to the problem. Here in our little island province we have a system of waste management that sorts all garbage into waste, compost and recyclables. I remember when this system was first introduced some twenty years ago as an annoyance. Now I wouldn't have it any other way. There is no excuse. My pet peeve...people who throw cigarette butts out their car windows when at traffic lights. Idiots. It's not very big but it's still garbage.

Catfish
01-12-18, 06:55 AM
As said before, i don't care how much percent it exactly is, as long as it is more than 90 percent.

Btw catfish your theory that says it will get cooler before it gets warmer, where did you get that?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-cold-snap-freak-nature-quick-analysis-finds-140502572.html [...]

You mix up something. The current cold in North America that is being (ab)used by some to deny climate change, is most probably indeed a local phenomenon and has not much to do with the global climate development. It is not an example for one or the other theory.

Regarding where "my" theory of the cooling-before-warming is from, this is usual content of geology lectures in meteorology and planet geology, in universities of England and Germany. The theories have not changed much since the 1980ies, if anything they are being proven by more and more samples being taken form the sedimentary and fossil records, along with ice core samples.

This does not mean that Trump could not change what is being taught in schools and universities with another one of his "decrees" if it somehow suits him, after all the damage this man has already done is breathtaking. I just doubt the rest of the (scientific) world will chime in and echo all this bovine scatology.

"We" do not have the power to really change anything big, neither politically, nor environmentally. However as Buddhaid and u crank said, if all do their part it might add up.
I guess everyone can agree that the landscape simply looks better without garbage, toxic lakes and industrial ruins.

Red Devil
01-12-18, 07:58 AM
We now have, and are using, the tech know how to accurately measure climatic changes, and it is happening. One very visible result is the increase in the number of hurricanes which I mentioned before somewhere. Also glaciers are breaking off in bigger and bigger portions as they become unstable. One fell off last year, the size of the country of Wales. Denialists will always come along when something is mooted in the media, or by Nasa. They just don't want to believe. It is a natural occurrence but mankind is accelerating it, so that what once took a century or three to show, is now taking several decades.

The population of the sea is already suffering drastically. Reefs are collapsing and dying because, if the ambient temperature rises just a couple of degrees, the animals that form the coral reefs die off, and the reef structures bleach and die, leaving a wasteland of collapsed dead coral.

August
01-12-18, 09:04 AM
This does not mean that Trump could not change what is being taught in schools and universities with another one of his "decrees" if it somehow suits him

I don't think you have a very realistic idea of US Presidential powers. Now maybe it's different in Germany but here POTUS cannot force schools or universities to teach (or not teach) anything.

Mr Quatro
01-12-18, 09:07 AM
They just don't want to believe. It is a natural occurrence but mankind is accelerating it, so that what once took a century or three to show, is now taking several decades.

The population of the sea is already suffering drastically. Reefs are collapsing and dying because, if the ambient temperature rises just a couple of degrees, the animals that form the coral reefs die off, and the reef structures bleach and die, leaving a wasteland of collapsed dead coral.

I figure we (earth like peoples) are either at the beginning or in the middle or near the end of something ...

2 Peter 3:8-9

But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

Rockstar
01-12-18, 09:23 AM
The really weird part about the debate if man is responsible, or not, is moot to me since I don't think anyone can argue man doesn't impact his environment. Just look out a window at random and count the garbage you see.

So what is wrong about putting some thought and practice into place to minimize it? Even simple steps at the smallest level have a huge overall impact when followed by billions.

It is an absolutely fantastic idea and goal to put in place cleaner and efficient ways to exploit earths resources. Another concern equal too and just as important is the health of the human population. People contract all types of illnesses and die from exposure to nuclear, biological and chemical wastes and products deliberately containing such crap.

Rockstar
01-12-18, 10:49 AM
I remember digging for fossilized sharks teeth in Summerville, South Carolina weird thing is Summerville is currently 75 feet above sea level. If trends continue I imagine we may have some more warming to deal with and there isn't going to be a damn thing anyone can do about it. I suggest we approach it as rational people preparing for a future rather than accuse and cause a stir.


I recommend buying up cheap land in the Appalachians it could be much desired beach front property in several hundred years. :D

Mr Quatro
01-12-18, 11:16 AM
I remember digging for fossilized sharks teeth in Summerville, South Carolina weird thing is Summerville is currently 75 feet above sea level. If trends continue I imagine we may have some more warming to deal with and there isn't going to be a damn thing anyone can do about it. I suggest we approach it as rational people preparing for a future rather than accuse and cause a stir.


I recommend buying up cheap land in the Appalachians it could be much desired beach front property in several hundred years. :D

Don't forget the sea shells found in New Mexico :yep:

Dowly
01-12-18, 11:58 AM
The fact that its just a few here and politicians who continue to glom on to and defend the 97% consensus as if it were gospel truth says a lot in my book.If you read through this thread, you will note that I have not once used the 97% to prove anything, rather my reason of defending it is purely to show how wrong, misleading, misrepresenting and at times completely made up your arguments are. And I'm not doing it in hopes to make you change your mind, you're far too gone to the conspiracy territory, but those on the fence just might when they see the M.O. of the denier camp.

Rockstar
01-13-18, 11:01 AM
My argument is the 97 percent consensus was found to be fatally flawed and refuted by actual climate scientists. Why your attempt to defend it had anything to do with me is quite puzzling. But if it helps you sleep better at night thinking it did I'm happy for you.

Red Devil
01-14-18, 10:24 AM
I figure we (earth like peoples) are either at the beginning or in the middle or near the end of something ...

2 Peter 3:8-9

I read somewhere that we have entered the 6th age of extinction when Mother Nature begins the process of starting over.

Platapus
01-14-18, 10:31 AM
So what is wrong about putting some thought and practice into place to minimize it? Even simple steps at the smallest level have a huge overall impact when followed by billions.

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Rockstar
01-14-18, 11:35 AM
What if its just a big hoax used by politicians to create polarizing ideological silos and hyper partisan divide? Us'in agin Them'ins is good for politics, media, lawyers, business.

Rockstar
01-14-18, 12:20 PM
https://weather.com/news/news/ancient-underwater-forest-found-alabama-20130317

Scientists studying both ancient and modern day shorelines have documented that Louisiana is sinking. The research also shows that Alabama and a portion of the Texas shoreline have risen.
"If part is sinking, somewhere else, it has to rise," DeLong said. "We see that in Alabama, and out around Galveston, Texas. On our timescale, it might be rising a few centimeters a year. But over 20,000 or 30,000 years, that begins to add up."
DeLong said she was amazed at the condition of the wood samples when she received them. The outer edge of the pieces is pockmarked from marine worms and other creatures, but those damages are only on the surface of the wood. Inside, the trees are still so hard that even a knife dragged across them barely makes a scratch.

August
01-14-18, 02:03 PM
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Realization of those lofty goals would indeed be a great thing but I don't see how we're going to regulate our way to utopia.

Platapus
01-14-18, 04:27 PM
Perhaps not. But I don't think we would ever get close to it unregulated.

August
01-14-18, 07:11 PM
Perhaps not. But I don't think we would ever get close to it unregulated.

The only regulation that could work is regulating population numbers. Anything less and you might as well not bother as all that it will accomplish is to create expensive boondoggles and in the process give the Statists even more control over our lives which is what many folks think it's all about already.

Rockstar
01-14-18, 09:40 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/german-engineering-yields-new-warship-that-isnt-fit-for-sea/ar-AAuAMwV?ocid=spartanntp


How about this for a start, have a plan and good reason BEFORE you exploit and apparently waste earths resources to build things. That might help.