Bubbly bitcoin not worth the wager: investors

[Gerald]

LONDON (Reuters) - Bitcoin may have surged a staggering 700 percent since the start of the year but most investors at a Reuters Summit this week said they had not been tempted to play the volatile cryptocurrency.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-investment-summit-bitcoin/bubbly-bitcoin-not-worth-the-wager-investors-idUSKBN1DH249

700 percent in one year.:hmmm:

[Buddahaid]

Just like my chances of not getting laid....:o

[Skybird]

The Bitcoin is no investment in the classical meaning of the term, but a gamble for the sake of the gamble, and not more. You can get away with it, like you could get away with a bet you place in the casino. But you also could get surprised by a sudden major or all-loss. In the end, the bitcoin's has an intrinsic value for nill, it is paper money without paper. Its a game people play , not a money in the meaning of the word "value-covered money". In other words: its Quatsch. Influential, popular Quatsch, and if you are ruthless and do not think it thorugh, you can make a fortune with it maybe, but Quatsch it is nevertheless. And the costs of this latest folly of paper money dreamers, will be needed to be paid one day, there is no forgiving.

I have moral problems with modern "investing" without investing for real. In the end, that is always just plundering. Real investments are not about just shaving off profits by plundering the host, but engaging in building and construction of the thing one invests into it. Its aboit growth and prospering of the thing. Today's investing is predatory, original investing was constructive, and cared for what one invested in.

This is not understood today. And that is one of the main reasons why the financial business is where it is, and why evertyhing is over the cliff. Classical national economists understood this. Austrian economists understand this. Modern bankers and FIAT money apostles do not understand this.

[ikalugin]

There is no intrinsic value, as value is a subjective construct.

[Buddahaid]

...Today's investing is predatory, original investing was constructive, and cared for what one invested in....

It has always been predatory. The world moves on and different ways of making money will always open, and close. Everything, including your vaunted gold standard, is of arbitrary value.

[Skybird]

There is no intrinsic value, but then there is. Its - a bit complicated.

https://smilingdavesblog.wordpress.com/2012/07/08/bitcoin-and-intrinsic-value/

I know that things have no intrinsic value. Only the value attributed by market participants. Still, as the short article explains, "Austrians" nevertheless talk of intrinsic value, but they mena something special with it. Its context-sensitive.

Read that article, its not long.

[STEED]

Just another lie like I.O.U paper money.

[ikalugin]

There is no intrinsic value, but then there is. Its - a bit complicated.

https://smilingdavesblog.wordpress.com/2012/07/08/bitcoin-and-intrinsic-value/

I know that things have no intrinsic value. Only the value attributed by market participants. Still, as the short article explains, "Austrians" nevertheless talk of intrinsic value, but they mena something special with it. Its context-sensitive.

Read that article, its not long.
What is described as "intrinsic" value is more or less irrelevant in case of money in my opinion, as you cant eat gold.

(and I am not a big fan of Mises)

[Skybird]

You cannot eat gold, but you an eat what you can barter for it. And in times of troubles, valuables of higher intrinsic value will always trade you more to eat than items of zero in troinsic value. Every inflation and hyperinflation, every time of big wars and collapse of state orders, is my witness. Since millenia.

Planned state economies cannot be maintained without inflationary created paper money. Politicians cannot corrupt their voiter pools without ifnlaitonary created paper money. Thats why the illusion is kept alive, and that is why politicians love Keynes and hate Hayek. The one was a big mouth, blender and imposter. The other was an intellectually brilliant and universally well-educated mind and a man of very, very wise heart. People like Keynes we have many today, the central banks create them by the legions. Men like Hayek we have almost none.

First pape rmoeny expeiment was run by the Chinese in the 12th century. It failed terirbly, and turned the kingdom into a war-hautned mess. Then for centuries nobody was dumb enough to try it again. When in more recnt times it was tried again and again, it always - ALWAYS - failed again. It must, for worthless pieces of paper with no intrinsic value will always return to their real intrinisc value, no matter what numbers the state prints on them: zero. One could as well cloaim that socialism-communism works if only this, if only that. It never has, and never will, because it cannot and never could in the first. If you design a plane but violate the laws of nature and physics all along, you must fail as well, and every time: it will never fly, no matter how much you tell people the opposite. The functioning of so-called market is as adamanetly predeterm ined, you cannot violate the laws of the makret and expcet to endlessly get away with it. The bills will be paid - down to every final nickle and every last dime.

[Skybird]

You cannot eat gold, but you an eat what you can barter for it. And in times of troubles, valuables of higher intrinsic value will always trade you more to eat than items of zero in troinsic value. Every inflation and hyperinflation, every time of big wars and collapse of state orders, is my witness. Since millenia.

Planned state economies cannot be maintained without inflationary created paper money. Politicians cannot corrupt their voiter pools without ifnlaitonary created paper money. Thats why the illusion is kept alive, and that is why politicians love Keynes and hate Hayek. The one was a big mouth, blender and imposter. The other was an intellectually brilliant and universally well-educated mind and a man of very, very wise heart. People like Keynes we have many today, the central banks create them by the legions. Men like Hayek we have almost none. Or Mises. We only know that we could esperately need them, and should listen to them. Marx und Keynes only led us into disaster after disaster.

First paper moeny expeiment was run by the Chinese in the 12th century. It failed terribly, and turned the kingdom into a war-haunted mess. Then for centuries nobody was dumb enough to try it again. When in more recent times it was tried again and again, it always - ALWAYS - failed again. It must, for worthless pieces of paper with no intrinsic value will always return to their real intrinisc value, no matter what numbers the state prints on them: zero. Already noted by Voltaire in a famous quote. One could as well claim that socialism-communism works if only this, if only that. Historic fact is: it never has worked, and never will, because it cannot and never could in the first. If you design a plane but violate the laws of nature and physics all along, you must fail as well, and every time: it will never fly, no matter how much you tell people the opposite. The functioning of so-called market is as adamanetly predeterm ined, you cannot violate the laws of the makret and expcet to endlessly get away with it. The bills will be paid - down to every final nickle and every last dime.

[Gerald]

Update: Breakingviews TV: Bitcoin going legit!!!

https://www.reuters.com/video/2017/12/01/breakingviews-tv-bitcoin-going-legit?videoId=373086282&videoChannel=1

[Skybird]

More and more people realise that the paper money system is collapsing right now in slo motion, that it it counterfeit "money". And that politicians and government controlling what money is and what not, is part of the problem.

What many people do not relaise is that states, as long as püeople submissvely obey to their claimed authpority, can and will prohibit rivalling currency models if they threaten their core interests. Like they have banned gold, so they will ban crypto currencies. It is not difficult, since it is all digital, nothing material. Thats why government want to delete cash "money", so that people must go all digital - it means people are utmost vulnerable and completely defenceless to any measurements taken by the state.

If you want a trustworthy and solid money system you have to take politicians, states, central banks out of the equation and must destroy their options to have any influence or control on the definition and "creation" of money. In other words: you must end having a planned economy, because that is what state-defined money is: planned eocnomy.

Instead, we will get the opposite. Because the vast majority of people allow it.

[Jimbuna]

More and more people realise that the paper money system is collapsing right now in slo motion, that it it counterfeit "money". And that politicians and government controlling what money is and what not, is part of the problem.

What many people do not relaise is that states, as long as püeople submissvely obey to their claimed authpority, can and will prohibit rivalling currency models if they threaten their core interests. Like they have banned gold, so they will ban crypto currencies. It is not difficult, since it is all digital, nothing material. Thats why government want to delete cash "money", so that people must go all digital - it means people are utmost vulnerable and completely defenceless to any measurements taken by the state.

If you want a trustworthy and solid money system you have to take politicians, states, central banks out of the equation and must destroy their options to have any influence or control on the definition and "creation" of money. In other words: you must end having a planned economy, because that is what state-defined money is: planned eocnomy.

Instead, we will get the opposite. Because the vast majority of people allow it.

Was only a matter of time Sky perhaps?

"Highly professional" hackers made off with around 4,700 Bitcoin from a leading mining service, a Bitcoin exchange has said.
The value of Bitcoin is currently extremely volatile, but at the time of writing, the amount stolen was worth approximately $80m.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42275523

[Skybird]

Yes, of course, only a matter of time.

Now imagine the interest oif govenbrments and centrla banks to manipulate these "cryptocurrencies" to support their financial policies and ideologies. I never beleived that Bitcoin is the final word in safety. Its computer code, and code can be cracked, stolen, manipulated, replaced. And governments will do it. Its in their interest. It is as unavoidably as is the devaluing of any paper money scheme you could ever have. Like I am convinced that they also manipulate the general niveau of gold price to keep it down - and its alarm function silent. This too is in governments interest: to let paper money and state bonds appear as something to be preferred. Without these crimes going on, states would immediately collapse, so would the economic system. Its all build on cheats and betrayal, lies and illusions.

Von nichts kommt nichts. What is so difficult to understand in that: from nothing comes nothing.

[Gerald]

Update: LONDON/NEW YORK (Reuters) - Bitcoin lost almost a fifth of its value in 10 hours on Friday, having surged more than 40 percent in the preceding 48 hours, sparking fears the market may be heading for a price collapse.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-markets-bitcoin/bitcoin-drops-after-dramatic-gains-ahead-of-futures-launch-idUSKBN1E11YT

Normal?:hmmm:

[Platapus]

If you are hungry and have one ounce of gold and I have one loaf of bread, how much do you think your gold is worth?

[Skybird]

If all has become worst, and If you are willing to barter since you have enough bread, and I offer you either an ounce of gold in any form, or a piece of paper with a hyperinflated number on it, or a full truck of such papers, tousands of them , and you consider what you can barter for any of the two yourself, if need arises, may it be a brib ewry of guards tpo escape from some place, may it be gasoline, or drugs, or a smuggles trek to bring you across a border - what would you chose?

https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.economicshelp.org %2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F11%2F100_trillion_2009_ Obverse.png&sp=dd511f5255194c3ef9a81e24a27c9f87


The argument "You cannot eat gold" is one of the most intellectually shortsighted and stupid arguments I have ever heard in a debate or disucssion. And yet I hear this special one time and again.

Gold gets bartered and used as an emeregcy trading item and a safe of value since several thousand years. Why is that, assuming that modern man is not the first one noticing that you cannot eat gold?

And how have ALL paper money system known in history so far ALWAYS ended? Although it is known that gold cannot be eaten (but maybe paper)?


Come to your senses, people.

The other thing you need, is the ability and means to fight against those wanting to take it from you by the use of force. When things detoriate so far that gold rules over hyperinflated worthless banknotes, the state will crackl down on you with meciless brutality to take any values away from you, and if open anarchy already exists, the police will have mostly gone and the law will have no meaning anymore: justice will be defined the strongest and most ruthless. You need weapons, and the readiness to use them. But this is a truth not being cared for in a society where most people think the basis of their survival gets reliably and always satisfied by the nearest supermarket, and the invulnerability of the supermarket and the logistics chain behind it is taken as granted.

Civilisation is a very layer of paint that can easily be washed away and scratched off. Below it, there only is sheep, and wolves. Shepard dogs would be in need, but will be extremely rare.

[Skybird]

LINK - Mark Spitznagel: Why cryptocurrencies will never be safe havens

Wonderfully put and explained. While generally already having been on his line, I had to correct my view of cryptocurrencies in two smaller details, since I could not reject his argument.


Every further new high in the price of Bitcoin brings ever more claims that it is destined to become the preeminent safe haven investment of the modern age — the new gold.


But there’s no getting around the fact that Bitcoin is essentially a speculative investment in a new technology, specifically the blockchain. Think of the blockchain, very basically, as layers of independent electronic security that encapsulate a cryptocurrency and keep it frozen in time and space — like layers of amber around a fly. This is what makes a cryptocurrency “crypto.”


That’s not to say that the price of Bitcoin cannot make further (and further…) new highs. After all, that is what speculative bubbles do (until they don’t).

Bitcoin and each new initial coin offering (ICO) should be thought of as software infrastructure innovation tools, not competing currencies. It’s the amber that determines their value, not the flies. Cryptocurrencies are a very significant value-added technological innovation that calls directly into question the government monopoly over money. This insurrection against government-manipulated fiat money will only grow more pronounced as cryptocurrencies catch on as transactional fiduciary media; at that point, who will need government money? The blockchain, though still in its infancy, is a really big deal.

While governments can’t control cryptocurrencies directly, why shouldn’t we expect cryptocurrencies to face the same fate as what started happening to numbered Swiss bank accounts (whose secrecy remain legally enforced by Swiss law)? All local governments had to do was make it illegal to hide, and thus force law-abiding citizens to become criminals if they fail to disclose such accounts. We should expect similar anti-money laundering hygiene and taxation among the cryptocurrencies. The more electronic security layers inherent in a cryptocurrency’s perceived value, the more vulnerable its price is to such an eventual decree.


Bitcoins should be regarded as assets, or really equities, not as currencies. They are each little business plans — each perceived to create future value. They are not stores-of-value, but rather volatile expectations on the future success of these business plans. But most ICOs probably don’t have viable business plans; they are truly castles in the sky, relying only on momentum effects among the growing herd of crypto-investors. (The Securities and Exchange Commission is correct in looking at them as equities.) Thus, we should expect their current value to be derived by the same razor-thin equity risk premiums and bubbly growth expectations that we see throughout markets today. And we should expect that value to suffer the same fate as occurs at the end of every speculative bubble.


If you wanted to create your own private country with your own currency, no matter how safe you were from outside invaders, you’d be wise to start with some pre-existing store-of-value, such as a foreign currency, gold, or land. Otherwise, why would anyone trade for your new currency? Arbitrarily assigning a store-of-value component to a cryptocurrency, no matter how secure it is, is trying to do the same thing (except much easier than starting a new country). And somehow it’s been working.


Moreover, as competing cryptocurrencies are created, whether for specific applications (such as automating contracts, for instance), these ICOs seem to have the effect of driving up all cryptocurrencies. Clearly, there is the potential for additional cryptocurrencies to bolster the transactional value of each other—perhaps even adding to the fungibility of all cryptocurrencies. But as various cryptocurrencies start competing with each other, they will not be additive in value. The technology, like new innovations, can, in fact, create some value from thin air. But not so any underlying store-of-value component in the cryptocurrencies. As a new cryptocurrency is assigned units of a store-of-value, those units must, by necessity, leave other stores-of-value, whether gold or another cryptocurrency. New depositories of value must siphon off the existing depositories of value. On a global scale, it is very much a zero sum game.

Or, as we might say, we can improve the layers of amber, but we can’t create more flies.


This competition, both in the technology and the underlying store-of-value, must, by definition, constrain each specific cryptocurrency’s price appreciation. Put simply, cryptocurrencies have an enormous scarcity problem. The constraints on any one cryptocurrency’s supply are an enormous improvement over the lack of any constraint whatsoever on governments when it comes to printing currencies. However, unlike physical assets such as gold and silver that have unique physical attributes endowing them with monetary importance for millennia, the problem is that there is no barrier to entry for cryptocurrencies; as each new competing cryptocurrency finds success, it dilutes or inflates the universe of the others.


The store-of-value component of cryptocurrencies — which is, at a bare-minimum, a fundamental requirement for safe haven status — is a minuscule part of its value and appreciation. After all, stores of value are just that: stable and reliable holding places of value. They do not create new value, but are finite in supply and are merely intended to hold value that has already been created through savings and productive investment. To miss this point is to perpetuate the very same fallacy that global central banks blindly follow today. You simply cannot create money, or capital, from thin air (whether it be credit or a new cool cryptocurrency). Rather, it represents resources that have been created and saved for future consumption. There is simply no way around this fundamental truth.


Viewing cryptocurrencies as having safe haven status opens investors to layering more risk on their portfolios. Holding Bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies likely constitutes a bigger bet on the same central bank-driven bubble that some hope to protect themselves against. The great irony is that both the libertarian supporters of cryptocurrencies and the interventionist supporters of central bank-manipulated fiat money both fall for this very same fallacy.


Cryptocurrencies are a very important development, and an enormous step in the direction toward the decentralization of monetary power. This has enormously positive potential, and I am a big cheerleader for their success. But caveat emptor—thinking that we are magically creating new stores-of-value and thus a new safe haven is a profound mistake.


Bold markings by me.