Argentine navy lost contact with sub [UPDATE: SUB FOUND]

[Von Due]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42030560

An Argentine submarine is currently not responding to comm attempts. Reasons could be many and as of now the sub is not considered missing. Instead the theory is they have radio problems, according to the Arg. navy. Let's hope that is the case and that the boat with its 44 man crew returns safe and sound.

[Onkel Neal]

Hope they come through okay.

[daft]

I sincerely hope they are all fine and just enjoy some time away from all the bull****. Hopefully they'll get to where they're going.

Also, I love how the Navy spokesman explains to the journalist how **** works:

"It's not that it's lost," he said. "For it to be lost we'd have to look for it and not find it."

[August]

This happened on Wednesday morning. Time is beginning to weigh against the bad radio theory. I also heard that they reported a battery fire just before breaking contact. I hope they are ok but it doesn't look good.

[GoldenRivet]

best case scenario is they put the fire out and all comms are down as a result of the fire

middle case scenario is they emergency surfaced the sub and abandoned ship and are awaiting pickup in the sea

i think we all know what the worst case scenario is :nope:

[Von Due]

Yeah all scenarios are plausible but I don't want to speculate (read fantasise) over what has happened. I think we can all agree official statements aren't always precise (Kursk, anyone?) but right now it is the only piece of info out and there is hope that it will end well.

EDIT: The Chilean Airforce, the British RN and the USN are now involved in the search for the missing submarine.

[Catfish]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/argentine-navy-loses-contact-with-submarine-carrying-44/ar-BBF6lFQ?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartanntp

[Skybird]

German-build, say the articles. On the photos, it looks like a 209, or not?

[Von Due]

German-build, say the articles. On the photos, it looks like a 209, or not?

It's a TR-1700 class.

[Jimbuna]

The Argentine navy is stepping up its search in the South Atlantic for a 44-crew submarine that has been out of radio contact for three days.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-42030560

Hopefully she will be found soon and all aboard will be safe.

[STEED]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2525923#post2525923

[Skybird]

TR-1007? Never heard of that, but that is no wonder :) ... Is that kind of an export version of one of the 209 variants, like the 209 up to 209-1004, or is it a completlye new design?

[Jimbuna]

Threads merged.

[Von Due]

Things are now starting to look less than optimal with reports coming in now that the sub has been detected at 70 m depth, and while it is unconfirmed, words like "loss" is not what one would hope for.

http://maritimebulletin.net/2017/11/17/argentinian-navy-submarine-with-40-crew-lost-contradicting-news/

[Jimbuna]

70 m depth is well within range of recue if assetts can be deployed quick enough.

[Von Due]

70 m depth is well within range of recue if assetts can be deployed quick enough.
True, depending on damage.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

TR-1007? Never heard of that, but that is no wonder :) ... Is that kind of an export version of one of the 209 variants, like the 209 up to 209-1004, or is it a completlye new design?I'm not completely sure but I think TR-1700 is derivative of Type 209 design with somewhat larger dimensions and displacement.

Vessel involved in this incident recently went through major overhaul which included rebuilding of diesel engines, replacement of batteries, replacement of periscopes etc.

[gambla]

There's hope that a phone company received attempted calls to marine bases via sat phone, but still unconfirmed. They're trying to determine the exact location of the calls.

source (german):
http://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Militaer-empfaengt-moegliche-Signale-von-U-Boot-article20140245.html

[Bubblehead Nuke]

3 days without contact on a modern warship?

Even a country like Argentina has access to modern communications gear and ANY warship is going to have multiple ways to 'call home' let alone contact SOMEONE who can relay a message.

How do they KNOW that a 4 second message was from them? It could have been atmospheric noise.

They are grasping at straws in an attempt to save face.

This is not a rescue, it is a recovery operation now.

[fireftr18]

3 days without contact on a modern warship?

Even a country like Argentina has access to modern communications gear and ANY warship is going to have multiple ways to 'call home' let alone contact SOMEONE who can relay a message.

How do they KNOW that a 4 second message was from them? It could have been atmospheric noise.

They are grasping at straws in an attempt to save face.

This is not a rescue, it is a recovery operation now.

I hate to think it, but you may be right. Let's continue to hope and pray that it is a major communications issue and they are all found safe.
:Kaleun_Cheers:

[Onkel Neal]

Argentina says it may have received signals from missing sub (https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/19/argentina-says-it-may-have-received-signals-from-missing-sub.html)

Distress calls received...?
https://news.google.com/news/video/UFMxQyjCNDc/d5GPduh3GNGgQdMW0eCYVUwt_k77M?hl=en

News is all over the place on this. :hmmm:

[em2nought]

It's too bad this guy isn't still around as Swede would be their only hope. Our navy can't steer a ship without running into something nowadays. I don't give it much chance at deep sea rescue. Too many politically correct, or incorrect decisions, and too much social engineering to do first before they ever got around to mounting a rescue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Momsen
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Charles_Momsen.jpg/220px-Charles_Momsen.jpg

A real man's man, and leader that guy! Not afraid to get his hands dirty, naval officers take note. ;)

[GoldenRivet]

For those who have not been keeping up with this on the Subsim Facebook Page, here's the latest:


Argentine Navy has confirmed that the satellite calls did NOT originate from the submarine.

Argentine Navy confirms that it did receive messages from submarine indicating electrical problems and was ordered to return to port

Two search vessels have reported detection of sounds on sonar consistent with tools being hammered against the side of the hull and have narrowed search area to 35 sq nautical miles to zero in on the source location of the sounds

[Onkel Neal]

Thanks, John

[Skybird]

I just realised I have no clue on how long a Diesel boat of this kind can stay submerged without the crew running out of oxygene if Diesels are not running...? This is no 212.

[Jimbuna]

I just realised I have no clue on how long a Diesel boat of this kind can stay submerged without the crew running out of oxygene if Diesels are not running...? This is no 212.

In a "worst-case scenario," the missing sub could run out of oxygen in two days, Argentine navy spokesman Enrique Balbi said Monday.
Under normal circumstances, the vessel has sufficient fuel, water, oil and oxygen to operate for 90 days without external help, said Balbi, and the vessel could "snorkel" -- or raise a tube to the surface -- "to charge batteries and draw fresh air for the crew."
If the sub is bobbing adrift on the surface and the hatch is open, it will have an available air supply and enough food for about 30 days, he said.
But if it is submerged and cannot raise a snorkel, its oxygen may last only about seven days. When the sub last made contact on Wednesday, five days ago, it was submerged, Balbi said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/20/americas/argentina-submarine-what-we-know/index.html

[Falkirion]

I'm curious, assuming the USN have an SSN somewhere nearby, would they be tasked to assist with the search or is that more on whatever other assets the Argentinians/other nations can mobilize?

Really hope the boat and crew is found soon.

[Mork_417]

Still hoping for the best.

[Hartmann]

I'm curious, assuming the USN have an SSN somewhere nearby, would they be tasked to assist with the search or is that more on whatever other assets the Argentinians/other nations can mobilize?

Really hope the boat and crew is found soon.

Probably some submarine could be in the area right now, but it only works if the Ara Santa fe is alive, or the crew is banging tools against the hull.

SSN can go below the termal layer and good options detecting the Argentinian submarine.

I´m not sure if the active sonar is useful or can detect submarines on the sea floor.

[Skybird]

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/20/americas/argentina-submarine-what-we-know/index.html
Sounds as if the spokesman in that article is somewhat avoiding the question. Mentioning snorkeling and m ission operation time while the sub obviously cannot surface or move, is a distraction.

Their electric did break probably, so implies the news so far, maybe they even had a battery or cable fire, which is worst case, or in toxication of the atmosphere from the betteries, and I take it that the sub sits still on the ground. Who knows how long it was submerged already when the problems showed up. I think you do not snorkel from 70m, or do you?

I fear they are already gone. Its the scenario with the highest probability. Hope I am wrong, though.

[Reece]

I would imagine the batteries nowadays would be sealed.:hmmm:

[Onkel Neal]

Argentina's navy says fresh noises are not from missing submarine (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/20/missing-argentina-submarine-running-out-of-air-as-search-enters-critical-phase)

Argentina’s navy has said sounds detected from the bottom of the ocean are not from the submarine which has been missing in rough seas for five days with 44 crew on board.

Spokesman Enrique Balbi said “a biological source” was behind the noises which were picked up by two Argentinian navy ships searching for ARA San Juan and by sonar buoys dropped by a US P8 surveillance plane.

The navy has also revealed the submarine’s last communication, on Wednesday, was to report a mechanical breakdown related to its batteries. Captain Gabriel Galeazzi, who runs the naval base in Mar del Plata, which was the submarine’s destination, said mechanical problems were not uncommon and rarely posed a risk.

[Jimbuna]

I fear they are already gone. Its the scenario with the highest probability. Hope I am wrong, though.

Sadly, I think you may well be right.

[Marcantilan]

Still praying.

[Niume]

I had hope that they may be found the sub then they heard tools getting banged on the hull. But now I have little faith now. One thing good is the weather is clearing up a bit.
Its still unclear to me how much the sub still has Oxygen left.

[AVGWarhawk]

I had hope that they may be found the sub then they heard tools getting banged on the hull. But now I have little faith now. One thing good is the weather is clearing up a bit.
Its still unclear to me how much the sub still has Oxygen left.

As of yesterday I believe it was stated 2 days of O2 left. Horrible situation.

[daft]

As of yesterday I believe it was stated 2 days of O2 left. Horrible situation.


And I assume that is a guess considering how little they know about the series of events.

[AVGWarhawk]

And I assume that is a guess considering how little they know about the series of events.

I would believe so, yes.

[Onkel Neal]

Articles I have been reading estimate the ocean depth ~230 feet, so if they were unable to surface perhaps they could attempt an emergency escape.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5106689/Missing-Argentine-submarine-located-Navy.html



Unlike modern nuclear subs, the 34-year-old, diesel-powered vessel must come up for air every seven days to replenish the cabin’s oxygen supplies and allow its four engines to charge its batteries.

The submarine has emergency canisters that would provide an extra few days of oxygen and remove toxic carbon dioxide, but there is a possibility that it may not be functioning because the vessel is out of power.

Frank Owen, from the Submarine Institute of Australia, told news.com.au that the crew could well be waiting underwater for their chance to surface.
“We know it’s been really rough, so even though the Argentinian navy protocol is to surface, it makes no sense with 6-8m waves to be sitting on the surface,” he said.

“If I was in that situation, I would be sitting on the bottom and waiting, doing everything I could to slow down my metabolism and eke out the life support mechanisms, reduce oxygen use and CO2 creation.”
http://www.news.com.au/world/south-america/last-day-of-air-for-missing-argentinian-submarine/news-story/2cd05b2655dbc6eb7f53b89db966fec3

[AVGWarhawk]

HOPEFULLY GOOD NEWS!!!!

Missing Argentine submarine 'is located by US Navy and a new sonar signal heard' as rescuers race to the spot with oxygen due to run out imminently



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5106689/Missing-Argentine-submarine-located-Navy.html

[Medley1991]

Nothing news ? :(

[GoldenRivet]

Ive been doing my best all day to keep up with this, so far, i have found nothing since the article about possibly locating the submarine "hot spot" on the sea floor.

[GoldenRivet]

This information is at least 3 or 4 hours old

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5108739/Hopes-fade-finding-crew-alive-missing-submarine.html

Hopes of finding the missing Argentine submarine and its crew of 44 alive were all but dashed on Wednesday.

Early this morning, search teams grew optimistic when the U.S. Navy picked up a 'heat stain' from a metallic object 230 feet before the ocean surface, near where the submarine disappeared in the South Atlantic.

But the heat stain was investigated and turned out not to be the submarine, which was due to run out of oxygen this morning.

'There hasn’t been a trace,' Argentine Navy spokesman Enrique Blabi said Wednesday. 'We’re considering three scenarios: the submarine is above the surface with its engines running, adrift at sea without propulsion or submerged on the bottom of the ocean.'

[em2nought]

Hopefully they're adrift. We send enough USN vessels there somebody will eventually run into it, probably literally. :03:

[GoldenRivet]

resources are being diverted to the location of an "acoustic anomaly" which was recorded on 15 NOV 2017 approximately 30 nm from the last reported position of the San Juan, which, Coincidentally, the last contact from the San Juan took place on that same date.

The area had previously been searched in poor weather conditions and produced no results.

of interest is the Acoustic Anomaly - which has been devoured by the educated ears of those who listen to oceanic sounds all the time and make - often conclusive - determinations as to what the source of the sounds are. In this case however, the sonar analysts did not call the anomaly an "explosion" but rather a non-biologic, non-seismic sound, unusual, and not something normally produced as part of regular oceanic noises. They did say that they were unable to determine what the sound was exactly, but had ruled out biologic or natural sources.

I would be willing to bet, that what the recordings captured is actually the sound of whatever catastrophe befell the San Juan

[Catfish]

It could even be a bigger ship that overran the surfaced sub in a storm, they probably would not even notice it.

So, to make it short, the Argentine Navy has no clue where the boat is. Neither has anyone else.
It is sobering, that even with those escape pods in Russian subs, and emergency buoys that can be released from a grounded boat, all still does not help in an emergency. Not with the Kursk back then, and not now.

Bureaucracy, or better desinformation and "keeping one's face" are in higher esteem than helping the sailors. Of course, it is all soo patriotic. :nope:


I really hope they are still alive and can be rescued, but after more than a week, no contact being made and rescue subs being as rare as unicorns ...

[Eichhörnchen]

HMS Protector will help in the search efforts:

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2017/november/18/171118-protector-joins-submarine-search-2

[Jimbuna]

Still hope, not much but a little.

[Skybird]

Grim story this has ended up to be.

Yesterdy there was some news background report on the TR1700 in one newspaper, saying that the boats the Argentinians bought did not have certain security features that are standard on boats in the German navy, and that should make it literally impossible to imagine that a boat runs out of all options to emergency-surface, which is the priority on boats of this limited size, because they have no internal bulkheads (so the author wrote) that allow to seal comparments against flooding, like you use to do on much bigger SSNs. They wrote an SSN can put priority on sealling flooding compartments, for a small SS like this howere the technical priority is to always pop up to the surface, no matter what. Seems to be a big difference in technical possibilities, and procedures favoured.

Thats why I am so sceptical about the outcome of this story. The priority of this boat would have been - and that is what it was desiged for - to emergency-surface. If that failed, it literalyl has run out of options already. The TR1700 has no internal bulkheads. Once a flooding happens somewhere, the whole boat will fill up, inevitably.

[Catfish]

An electrical failure alone will not necessarily lead to a sinking.. but as i heard they have recorded an unusual sound underwater, after the last transmission. If the hull was breached even if it's only a small leak, and they have no electricity...

[TomcatMVD]

Sounds as if the spokesman in that article is somewhat avoiding the question. Mentioning snorkeling and m ission operation time while the sub obviously cannot surface or move, is a distraction.

Their electric did break probably, so implies the news so far, maybe they even had a battery or cable fire, which is worst case, or in toxication of the atmosphere from the betteries, and I take it that the sub sits still on the ground. Who knows how long it was submerged already when the problems showed up. I think you do not snorkel from 70m, or do you?

I fear they are already gone. Its the scenario with the highest probability. Hope I am wrong, though.

The Navy spokesman has been very responsible in how he conveys information. He might have been taken out of context. I heard the interview and he mentioned all possibilities from the starting point that the vessel was known to have been at least at snorkel depth by the time the last message was sent. After that, it either went down with the atmosphere having just been refreshed, or it managed to complete a couple more cycles of snorkeling before whatever happened took place. This is just to illustrate that there is no way of ascertaining with 100% accuracy the available levels of oxygen.

[TomcatMVD]

Argentine navy confirms the "violent" acoustic anomaly "consistent with an explosion" taking place on Wednesday last week and reported yesterday.
The search area's depth varies between 200mts and up to 3000mts as it sits right in the edge of the continental platform.
The acoustic event took place 3 hours after the last communication with the vessel.

[Pirate]

Argentine navy confirms the "violent" acoustic anomaly "consistent with an explosion" taking place on Wednesday last week and reported yesterday.
The search area's depth varies between 200mts and up to 3000mts as it sits right in the edge of the continental platform.
The acoustic event took place 3 hours after the last communication with the vessel.


Dammit!!!
All hope seems to be gone now! :(

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Grim story this has ended up to be.

Yesterdy there was some news background report on the TR1700 in one newspaper, saying that the boats the Argentinians bought did not have certain security features that are standard on boats in the German navy, and that should make it literally impossible to imagine that a boat runs out of all options to emergency-surface, which is the priority on boats of this limited size, because they have no internal bulkheads (so the author wrote) that allow to seal comparments against flooding, like you use to do on much bigger SSNs. They wrote an SSN can put priority on sealling flooding compartments, for a small SS like this howere the technical priority is to always pop up to the surface, no matter what. Seems to be a big difference in technical possibilities, and procedures favoured.

Thats why I am so sceptical about the outcome of this story. The priority of this boat would have been - and that is what it was desiged for - to emergency-surface. If that failed, it literalyl has run out of options already. The TR1700 has no internal bulkheads. Once a flooding happens somewhere, the whole boat will fill up, inevitably.Can you provide a link to this background story? It sounds quite interesting that there would not be any pressure/watertight buikheads inside pressure hull. Granted, TR-1700 is small boat, but it is still larger than current German submarines and I have always assumed that threre would be atleast two separate compartments, propably three.

[gambla]

The recorded explosion (= possible implosion ?) seems to have been confirmed. This in timeline with the last contact to the submarine sadly looks like the most horrible outcome possible. Let's hope they are wrong, even though I guess they'd run out of air before anyone can reach them. :(

[Rockstar]

I counted at least five watertight transverse bulkheads on a TR1700. Like any ship it can probably survive with one compartment flooded. However I doubt she could stay afloat with two of them compromised.

http://www.heiszwolf.com/subs/plans/small_tr1700.jpg

Also this might be a pretty good source for latest intel.

http://www.elsnorkel.com/ habla Español only

[Skybird]

I cxan only repeat what they wrote in one of the Germasn mainstrema media, on the difference between the TR1700 for Argentinia, and the boats folr the german navy like the 209 and 212.

The explicitly pointed out a difference in emergency procedure priorities on SSN of the British or American navy, and this tiny SS, saying that these nculear boats are so big that mucz greater empohasis is out on damage control by isolating flooded compartments, becasue due to their size these boats still could surface with flood water on board. The tinier SS like the TR1700, they said, cannot afford that stabilization attempt and then surfacing under more controlled conditions, they must in cas eof an emergency immediately pout all pritirty on getting up to the surface or they are done. The procedure of SSNs, they cannot afford.

They also said that a difference between the TR1700 and boats of the 209 and 212 type is that the TR1700 lacks some engineering solutions and emergency fallback systems that should make it almost unimaginable that the 209s and 212s could not surface, it had something to do with reserve air and such things, I do not remember all details. The quoted gemrna navy officer or engineer or whoever he was explcitly said that single comoartments of the boat could not be sealed off, the 1700 had no bulkheads. Whether the author of the article , refering to that interview, concluded there are no bulkheads becasue it mad eno sense anyway to seal off an compartment iof that means the boatr cannot surfac with one compartment full of water, or whether his source indeed said there are no material bulkheads, I cannot say. He just said "no bulkheads in this boat".

Sorry, guys, it was just an article in one of the major newspaperts over here, and I cannot remember which one, since I skim several ones per day, you know how it is: you do your usual daily routine, read some stuff, and do not make further mental notes on names, sources, origins. Text would have been in German anyway.

Its relatively clear, however: SS boats of this small size can afford only much less damage, than much bigger boats of the kind of an SSN. Their tolerance for inflooding water and its ballast weight, also is much smaller, necessarily. Thats the central core of the message.

[TheSatyr]

Sounds like everybody is rushing to the spot the explosion was heard at. The P-8s should get there first. Whether she is sitting on the bottom or if she imploded,the wreckage has to be found. The families of the crew members deserve some closure.

[mapuc]

Had high hopes they would find the crew alive or some of them. After reading the lastest about this recorded sound, which could be an explosion I must say that this hope is now very low.

Earlier today I read in an article they will do anything to find this sub whether the crew is alive or not.

It has not only to do with the family or the love ones-It has also to do with what made the sub explode or implode

It could be an unknown construction failure.

Markus

[Rockstar]

...

It could be an unknown construction failure.

Markus

Or sadly as the article Skybird presented seems to have alluded too, a case of you get what you pay for. :(

[Onkel Neal]

Hopes Dashed, Relatives of Argentine Submarine Crew Turn to Grief and Anger (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/23/world/americas/argentina-submarine-explosion.html)

“For 15 years, the navy has been neglected,” said Itatí Leguizamón, the wife of Germán Oscar Suárez, a radar operator on the vessel.

As if to add insult to injury, the explosion came to light only after analysts from the United States government and an international nuclear weapons monitor detected it and told the Argentines. Vessels from the United States, Britain, Brazil and Chile have been combing the seas as part of the search; the Argentine Navy’s four P3-B maritime patrol aircraft have been grounded and unavailable for deployment, according to Jane’s Research.

While the Navy did not formally given up hope of finding the crew, relatives began referring to their loved ones in the past tense. If the sailors perished, it would be the deadliest submarine catastrophe since the sinking of the Kursk — a Russian vessel brought down by a misfired weapon in 2000 — and the Argentine military’s largest loss of life since the Falklands War of 1982.

[Jimbuna]

The BBC article on the situation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-42100620

[fitzcarraldo]

For the crew of the ARA San Juan.
In ethernal patrol.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KCiMdR1ox0

Eternal Father, strong to save,
Whose arm hath bound the restless wave,
Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep
Its own appointed limits keep;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!

O Christ! Whose voice the waters heard
And hushed their raging at Thy word,
Who walkedst on the foaming deep,
And calm amidst its rage didst sleep;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!

Most Holy Spirit! Who didst brood
Upon the chaos dark and rude,
And bid its angry tumult cease,
And give, for wild confusion, peace;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!

O Trinity of love and power!
Our brethren's shield in danger's hour;
From rock and tempest, fire and foe,
Protect them wheresoe'er they go;
Thus evermore shall rise to Thee
Glad hymns of praise from land and sea.

[Jimbuna]

I hope you don't mind me merging the threads but it is probably more appropriate because they are the same topic.

Fair winds and following seas to all those lost.

~SALUTE~

[speed150mph]

Jive turkey, one of the guys I'm subscribed to on YouTube, is a retired us navy sonar tech.

He just released this video of him analyzing the sonar graphs of the event that occurred after last contact. He seems to believe that some type of explosion or hull failure occurred, followed a minute later by a full emergancy blow, and possibly the sound of it settling on the bottom.

Link to video

http://youtu.be/bc39NVy1v20

[Rufus Shinra]

May they rest in peace. The sea is a harsh mistress who takes too many brave souls.

[Etiane]

"Ara San Juan": Sad certainty-the Argentine Navy confirms the death of the Uboot crew the worst of all scenarios was confirmed this morning at the meeting of the crew members of the Argentine Navy, which the sad Notice of the death of the 44-member crew of the Ubootes "Ara San Juan" announced.
On the presumed position of the "Ara San Juan", there should have been an explosion immediately after the last radio link ten days ago. This was agreed by sea probes of the International Atomic Test Stop Authority CTBTO and the USA, said a spokesman of the Argentine Navy yesterday in Buenos Aires.
Latest information suggests that an explosion has led to the destruction of the submarine. Experts suggested that the submarine could be too deep and broken or a short circuit of the batteries.
The search for the Uboot is to be continued with international participation until finally clarity about the fate of the "Ara San Juan" reigns.

The "Ara San Juan", built in Germany, disappeared on Wednesday last week on the journey from Ushuaia to the southern tip of Argentina to Mar del Plata. The Uboot had reported a battery damage and announced to return to the base. Then the contact broke off. Source: Marina Argentina The German Navy blog mourns for the Argentine comrades who are thinking of the relatives.

#RIP May the souls of our brethren find their peace

Source
https://www.facebook.com/deutschemarineblog/posts/1770613049899338

[Gerald]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42115406

[ACR]

Jive turkey, one of the guys I'm subscribed to on YouTube, is a retired us navy sonar tech.

He just released this video of him analyzing the sonar graphs of the event that occurred after last contact. He seems to believe that some type of explosion or hull failure occurred, followed a minute later by a full emergancy blow, and possibly the sound of it settling on the bottom.

Link to video

http://youtu.be/bc39NVy1v20

thank you very much for the link, i looked at it and learned some details .

however , out of speculation of course , i have another scenario what the three sounds are .

i think they had a battery failure / fire but inutially surfaced and were able to report it ( last contact and irders to return to base ). they fought with a blackout and the need to ventilate the boat , secure the batteries - in very bad weather and high seas. they might in this conditions start to take water (maybe no pumps due to electric problems but need to ventilate the battery fumes) and after about three hours (time between last contact and the recorded sounds ) the boat lost boyancy and started to go down but with an still intact hull and still some air inside . after reaching crush depth the first and most violent sound is the implosion of the hull followed by silence for 80 seconds until the second less noisier sound . thats when the crushed hull hits the bottom and settles down ( and not the sound of sn emergency blow ) . the third , vanishing sound is the settling of the last parts of debris on the bottom and then silence again .

the estimated crush depth is due to my estimate about 450 meters , the sinking of the crushed hull ? - no idea - 10 m/second ? if the hull crushed at 450 meters and further travelled for 80 seconds with 10 m/s the wreckage is at about 1250 meters water depth . that would mean they are at a deep spot an the edge of the continental shelf .

i hope i,m wrong and pray for a miracle and the sailors return !

best regards

[Mr Quatro]

Who's hearing or receiving all of these sounds? Sosus closed down years ago and was a couple of thousand miles from there. As far as I know you can only hear perhaps 75 miles away on another sensor platform like a submarine.

SOSUS. The acronym for Sound Surveillance Under the Sea, SOSUS was a ... Closed down at the end of the Cold War, SOSUS terminals have been either ...

[GoldenRivet]

Who's hearing or receiving all of these sounds? Sosus closed down years ago and was a couple of thousand miles from there. As far as I know you can only hear perhaps 75 miles away on another sensor platform like a submarine.

The "Comprehensive Nuclear Test ban Treaty Organization" was established and provided with the IMS (International Monitoring System and Communications Infrastructure) some of which is still being constructed.

the system consists of:

Seismic Monitors

Hydro-Acoustic Stations

Acoustic Pressure Sensors

Radionuclide Stations which detect radioactive material in the air

the purpose of this equipment is to listen, watch, and feel for signs of nuclear explosions in violation of the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty.

In this case, the organization's Hydro-Acoustic Stations in the South Atlantic registered the loud explosions on sonar approximately 3 hours after the last communication with the San Juan.

as im sure you could imagine, it takes some time to pour through the data, listen to the sounds, sample the air etc

in this case, the CBTBO noted that the sound may correlate to the search to the San Juan and made their data available to the appropriate authorities.

EDIT: in short, the notation of the sound was more or less just stumbled upon - they were not "listening for subs"

[speed150mph]

ACR

Interesting theory, but it has holes.

Firstly that is the sonar data from the nuclear test ban orginaization who had access to the original audio. They classified it as an explosion, not an implosion. The sound of a collapsing hull is a very distinct sound, and I'd hope that a group listening for nuclear blasts would know an explosion.

Second is that as someone showed in a technical breakdown of the TR1700, it does have some watertight bulkheads. With a hull collapse, you would hear the bulkhead collapse in succession, not just a single event.

Thirdly, if they were on the surface taking on water slowly and not able to pump it out, they would have had time to deploy the emergancy rescue beacon and evacuate the crew.

Forth, I'm by no means a capable seaman or fit to be a sub captain, but if I was in a submarine with battery issues that threatened propulsion; at this point is somewhat unclear what issue was with the battery other then it was reported as a routine issue, but being in a storm like they were, and thinking that I was not in immediate danger of sinking and knowing that if had oxygen for days, I would be hesitant to surface a small submarine like that and risk losing propulsion and not being able to control my sub in the waves.

[Aktungbby]

Etiane!:Kaleun_Salute: Does any one know the type of torpedo carried on board the two TR1700 class Argentinian submarines. The sistership: On 15 June 2014, Santa Cruz ran aground (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_grounding) in an accident near Buenos Aires (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buenos_Aires) exposing its rotted out hull. She was being towed to Tandanor shipyard for maintenance, and was unlocked without damage.
On September 2016, Santa Cruz started a renovation and life extension program at the Tandanor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandanor) shipyard in Buenos Aires, Argentina. The work will include changing all 960 batteries, periscope and snorkel maintenance, revision of engines, and overall system upgrades. She had had the same midlife refit as Ara San Juan ca. 1999-2001....:timeout: My first guess(explosion??) would be a Kursk type outdated ordinance failure; but I can find no info on torpedo type/propulsion system ordinance failure. San Juan like her sister arrived too late for the Falklands War in 1982. In fact, the construction program hindered the war effort by sending the most experienced Argentine submariners to Europe to assist the TR-1700’s development.

The inexperienced crews of the World War II-era submarines ARA San Luis and ARA Santa Fe fought in the war. However, the British sank Santa Fe at South Georgia. San Luis tried in vain to sink British warships but was unsuccessful due to crew mishaps and technical problems with her wire-guided torpedoes. “These factors point to a ship [San Luis] that was operationally unready to fight a war,” U.S. Navy Lt. Cmdr. Clinton Cragg wrote in a 1991 report (http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA236872) for the Naval War College.
San Juan entered service in November 1985. Cragg went on to describe the TR-1700 as “impressive,” noting its 12,000-nautical-mile range and 890-foot maximum depth as representing a “formidable ocean going threat.” During the mid-1980s, U.S. government literature referred to the TR-1700 as the most advanced non-nuclear submarine anywhere in the world.
The San Jorge Gulf off Argentina’s eastern gulf, near San Juan’s last known location, is shallower than her maximum operating depth.
“Numerous overt (and possibly) covert attempts were made to gather intelligence on this generation submarine while it was on sea trials and in transit to Argentina,” Cragg noted.
The sinking of the cruiser ARA General Belgrano during the war by the British submarine HMS Conqueror was another wake-up call for the Argentine navy. Massive inflation — already a problem before the conflict — continued, and anti-military sentiment after the defeat in the Falklands helped pummel the defense budget.
The TR-1700 program was a rare survivor of this contraction, a testament to the importance of submarines in Argentina’s doctrine at the time, although four more planned TR-1700s were scrapped during construction.
“The submarine, viewed as a luxury item in the seventies, was now considered as an essential element in Argentina’s security,” Cragg added. “The submarine came to be viewed as a cost effective avenue to carry out the mission of the state.”
Argentina has continued investing resources in its submarine fleet — retrofitting San Juan from 2008 to 2013 — as its surface fleet declined and experienced several serious incidents and mishaps....and we think our own collision-prone Navy is bad....:timeout: A leading cause of deaths in any navy appears to be budget constraints.

[Red_88]

My first guess(explosion??) would be a Kursk type outdated ordinance failure; but I can find no info on torpedo type/propulsion system ordinance failure.
Well the kursk had these 65cm torpedos onboard which have hydrogen peroxide propulsion. I read somewhere it was one of these blowing up. Except the russians there are the swedes who have torpedos with hyrdogen peroxide propulsion.

My guess the Argentine navy use either german torpedos (theiy are all electric) or maybe the american NT-37 (OTTO II Fuel like in the mk-48)

[Dowly]

Oberon asked me to pass this link here. It is a fundraiser for the families of the submarine's crew.

https://www.generosity.com/emergencies-fundraising/ara-san-juan-relief-fund--2

[speed150mph]

Well looks like the Russians have finally joined the search. It would have been nice if they would have joined sooner :p

[aanker]

Thank you for the YouTube post speed150mph, his experienced analysis is fascinating.

[ACR]

speed150 mph :

you have valid points and like said all is speculation but if the second sound should be an emergency blow where is the sound when the hull crashes against into the seafloor?

a hull crashing against the seafloor should for sure be noisier than blowing the ballast or not ?

and like he explained in the video the first sound does not sound like a warhead going off but more like extreme forces building up and 4 seconds later a sudden explosive failure.

best regards

[GoldenRivet]

speed150 mph :

you have valid points and like said all is speculation but if the second sound should be an emergency blow where is the sound when the hull crashes against into the seafloor?

a hull crashing against the seafloor should for sure be noisier than blowing the ballast or not ?

and like he explained in the video the first sound does not sound like a warhead going off but more like extreme forces building up and 4 seconds later a sudden explosive failure.

best regards

i would think the sound of the emergency blow would be considerably louder than the impact with the sea floor.

[Pirate]

i would think the sound of the emergency blow would be considerably louder than the impact with the sea floor.


Yup, specially if the bottom is mud or sand, not so much if it is rock!

[kilerkg]

Apparently the snorkel leaked water, causing a battery to short circuit. They reported the problem and were ordered back to base.

'They had to isolate the battery and continue to sail underwater toward Mar del Plata, using another battery.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5122375/Water-got-missing-Argentine-submarines-snorkel.html

[aanker]

Thanks. That info coincides with earlier reports. Those seas were so heavy when this happened and for days after, .... this whole event just snowballed into such a tragedy for those poor souls. Very sad.

[TomcatMVD]

Just saw a leaked document confirming it was found at 1050mts (like 3500ft). Take it with a big grain of salt although it looked legit. There's been a boatload of idiots inventing bullcrap reports, this one did get me to raise a brow though.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[vienna]

One report I read mentioned that, after the sub had reported and was ordered home, it apparently proceeded submerged on its course, an action which seems a bit odd and questionable...








<O>

[GoldenRivet]

One report I read mentioned that, after the sub had reported and was ordered home, it apparently proceeded submerged on its course, an action which seems a bit odd and questionable...

i think the decision had some to do with the sea state at the time. heavy seas were the norm that week. i think the rescue ships sometimes faced 18 foot swells or higher.

seems much for a 200 foot long submarine

[fitzcarraldo]

The ARA San Juan had been called back to port after the commander informed of a complication with one of the batteries. "Entry of seawater by ventilation system to battery tank No. 3 caused a short circuit and the beginning of a fire in the balcony of battery bars, bow batteries out of service, at the time of immersion, propelling with a split circuit. I will keep staff informed," Pedro Martín Fernández informed in a message via radio frequency.
ANALYSIS OF ACOUSTIC DETECTION OF THE
LOSS OF THE ARGENTINE SUBMARINE SAN JUAN
By Bruce Rule
An analytical review of all information released by the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty Organization on the acoustic signal associated with the loss of the Argentina Submarine ARA SAN JUAN confirms the following:
That acoustic signal originated near 46-10S, 59-42W at 1358Z (GMT) on 15 November 2017. It was produced by the collapse (implosion) of the ARA SAN JUAN pressure-hull at a depth of 1275-feet. Sea pressure at the collapse depth was 570 PSI. The frequency of the collapse event signal (bubble-pulse) was about 4.4 Hz.
The energy released by the collapse was equal to the explosion of 12,500 pounds of TNT at the depth of 1275-feet. That energy was produced by the nearly instantaneous conversion of potential energy (sea-pressure) to kinetic energy, the motion of the intruding water-ram which entered the SAN JUAN pressure-hull at a speed of about 1800 mph.
The entire pressure-hull was completely destroyed (fragmented/compacted) in about 40 milliseconds (0.040s or 1/25th of a second), the duration of the compression phase of the collapse event which is half the minimum time required for cognitive recognition of an event.
Although the crew may have known collapse was imminent, they never knew it was occurring. They did not drown or experience pain. Death was instantaneous.
The SAN JUAN wreckage sank vertically at an estimated speed between 10 and 13 knots. Bottom impact would not have produced an acoustic event detectable at long range.
The open question is: why was no corrective action - such as blowing ballast - taken by the SAN JUAN crew before the submarine sank to collapse depth? According to Argentine Navy spokesman Gabriel Galeazzi, the Commanding Officer of the SAN JUAN reported a "failure" in the submarine's "battery system," The time of that report was 0730 on 15 November, assumed to have been GMT. Subsequently, the problem was reported to have been "fixed." The SAN JUAN intended to submerged and continued its transit north. The SAN JUAN pressure-hull collapsed at 1358 GMT on 15 November.
In the case of the loss of the US nuclear submarine SCORPION (SSN 589), hydrogen out-gassed by the main battery exploded at 18:20:44 GMT on 22 May 1968 incapacitating/killing the crew with an atmospheric over-pressure in the battery well estimated to have been 7-10 times the fatal value. The pressure-hull was not breached. This assessment was based on analysis of acoustic detections of the event and damage observed in pieces of the fragmented battery recovered from the wreckage at a depth of 11,100 feet by the US submersible TRIESTE, e.g., microscopic, spectrographic and x-ray diffraction analyses. (There was no flooding of the pressure-hull before the battery exploded.)
SCORPION lost power and sank slowly over nearly 22 minutes to collapse at a depth of 1530-feet at 18:42:34 GMT on 22 May 1968.
There is the possibility that a similar sequence of events occurred aboard the SAN JUAN. If the wreck is located and efforts are made to recover components, emphasis should be placed on the battery system.
The author of this assessment was the lead acoustic analyst at the US Office of Naval Intelligence for 42 years, analyzed acoustic detectors of the loss of the USS THRESHER (SSN 593) on 10 April 1963 and testified before that Court of Inquiry. The author expresses his appreciation to those who supported this assessment with research and calculations.

[August]

Rest in peace Sailors.

[Skybird]

Argentine shifts focus on a German company, Ferrostahl, which renewed the batteries. The contract with the Argentine defence ministry is under examination, since Ferrostahl was involved in bribery regarding deals with Greece and Portugal five years ago.

Whether or not Ferrostahl is responsible for an incorrect implementation of the works and so maybe helped the disastrous consequences to unfold, is unclear. Bribery is one thing - accidents or technical incompetence is another thing. Possible that Argentine is looking for a foreign strawman to distract from problems in its own military logistics and maintenance schemes - or that it takes aim at heads in the military who could be cut off in the wake of the disaster.

Without the loss of the San Juan, this examination now probably would have never taken place. Whether or not Ferrostahl had any responsibility in the process of technical events that led to the loss of the San Juan, obviously could only be determined if the wreck gets found and examined.

[TomcatMVD]

Argentine shifts focus on a German company, Ferrostahl, which renewed the batteries. The contract with the Argentine defence ministry is under examination, since Ferrostahl was involved in bribery regarding deals with Greece and Portugal five years ago.

Whether or not Ferrostahl is responsible for an incorrect implementation of the works and so maybe helped the disastrous consequences to unfold, is unclear. Bribery is one thing - accidents or technical incompetence is another thing. Possible that Argentine is looking for a foreign strawman to distract from problems in its own military logistics and maintenance schemes - or that it takes aim at heads in the military who could be cut off in the wake of the disaster.

Without the loss of the San Juan, this examination now probably would have never taken place. Whether or not Ferrostahl had any responsibility in the process of technical events that led to the loss of the San Juan, obviously could only be determined if the wreck gets found and examined.

There is not a lot "foreign" about this, Argentina recently changed administrations which involved a drastic change in direction, and the new government is very poised to unearth any and all nefarious dealings of the previous executive branch. A lot of fingers are already pointed at previous president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner and her associates. She, after all, made a big deal of the whole overhauling of these submarines with public speeches and fanfare.

[Falkirion]

Sounds like the Argentine govt are looking for a scapegoat to me.

Who handled the overhaul of the sub? Was it a foreign company or a local one?

[Rockstar]

Having been in a shipyard or two in my life. In my experience the shipyard does the work. But select government representatives of the ships chain of command ensure its being done according to contract specification and they have the final say whether it is done right or not.

I find it hard for anyone but the Argentine government to accept full responsibility for the destruction of this boat.

[TomcatMVD]

I read news reports that this particular submarine was overhauled in a local shipyard, which is why they made such a big deal out of it when it happened. I think, if I got my facts straight, that the re-fitting operation taking place in Germany was actually a modernization of the sub's sensors and equipment, and not the aforementioned overhaul. I also heard a former head of the shipyard explaining how this sub's batteries were actually "recycled" and not replaced. There is a technical term for it but I don't know what it is, but basically if the outer shell of the batteries is deemed in good condition, then they just change the chemical components without actually removing and installing new batteries.

I just found this (https://www.clarin.com/sociedad/reparacion-media-ARA-San-Juan_3_1907839207.html)video, which was actually published back when the actual overhaul was taking place. Below you'll find my attempt at translating what the narrator says:

After 2 years, Argentina regained a strategic capability, that of repairing submarines.An activity that was devastated during prior administrations.

Nowadays, in CINAR installations, the ARA San Juan’s state is being reverted. One of 3 active members of the Argentine navy submarine force, together with its twins, the ARA Santa Cruz and ARA Salta, The ARA San Juan sailed for the first time on June of 1983. Almost 2 years ago it arrived to our shops to begin what is known as “mid-life repairs”, a key maintenance effort which is the only time when the sub is cut in half, disassembled, fixed, and put together again through welding, the precision of which admits no errors.

The situation of the ship required this intervention to improve its navigation quality, deteriorated by hydrogen emissions from its batteries, which endangered its crew, and the submarine itself.

This event is a milestone for Argentina’s naval industry history. For this titanic task, CINAR joined forces with INTI (don’t know what this is) and Argentine’s navy. Almost 2 years after being dry docked, the ARA San Juan is at a decisive stage, and all processes necessary for its final readiness are being accomplished. It marks the return of a giant of the seas which contributes to safeguard national sovereignty.

CINAR can confirm that Argentine Navy will be able to count again on one of its maritime insignias, and above all, ratify the national government’s decision of recovering Argentina’s naval industry.

[Sean C]

...CINAR joined forces with INTI (don’t know what this is) and Argentine’s navy.

Maybe this?...

The National Industrial Technology Institute (Spanish: Instituto Nacional de Tecnología Industrial), commonly known as INTI, is an Argentine federal agency in charge of the developing of Industrial technology. It was created in 1957.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I also heard a former head of the shipyard explaining how this sub's batteries were actually "recycled" and not replaced. There is a technical term for it but I don't know what it is, but basically if the outer shell of the batteries is deemed in good condition, then they just change the chemical components without actually removing and installing new batteries.Not sure if this is correct one, but atleast in case of marin diesel engines the process is known as "rebuilding". In practice you disasseble the engine, repair and replace components as necessary and then reasseble it.

[damiancag]

Las palabras no alcanzan para describir la tristeza de perder a 44 hermanos y una nave que recorrió tantos kilómetros, tubo tantas historias para contar y ahora este sola en la oscuridad de las profundidades espero con ansiedad que vuelvas alguna ves a puerto...

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Las palabras no alcanzan para describir la tristeza de perder a 44 hermanos y una nave que recorrió tantos kilómetros, tubo tantas historias para contar y ahora este sola en la oscuridad de las profundidades espero con ansiedad que vuelvas alguna ves a puerto...Could you post this again in English?

[GoldenRivet]

Could you post this again in English?

according to copy paste in google translate:


Words are not enough to describe the sadness of losing 44 brothers and a ship that traveled so many kilometers, I have so many stories to tell and now this alone in the darkness of the depths I am looking forward to returning to port sometime ...

[Dowly]

Google Translate makes sense enough.

The words are not enough to describe the sadness of losing 44 brothers and a ship that traveled so many kilometers, I have so many stories to tell and now I am alone in the darkness of the depths, I look forward to returning to port sometime ...

EDIT: Ninja'd by GoldenRivet.

[TomcatMVD]

Officially no longer a rescue mission. Search for the vessel continues. RIP :(

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[TomcatMVD]

according to copy paste in google translate:


Words are not enough to describe the sadness of losing 44 brothers and a ship that traveled so many kilometers, it had so many stories to tell and now sits alone in the darkness of the depths I am looking forward to its return to port sometime ...

Fixed the last part. It actually refers to the boat and not the person speaking.


Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[CapitanPiluso]

Recien cuando se encuentre el submarino y se investigue se va a poder saber que ocurrio realmente.
Todo lo que se diga ahora son meras especulaciones,y deberiamos dejar de opinar por respeto a las victimas y sus familias.

[propbeanie]

Recien cuando se encuentre el submarino y se investigue se va a poder saber que ocurrio realmente.
Todo lo que se diga ahora son meras especulaciones,y deberiamos dejar de opinar por respeto a las victimas y sus familias.


"Only when the submarine is found and investigated will it be possible to know what really happened.
Everything that is said now is mere speculation, and we should stop saying it out of respect for the victims and their families."

[TomcatMVD]

Recien cuando se encuentre el submarino y se investigue se va a poder saber que ocurrio realmente.
Todo lo que se diga ahora son meras especulaciones,y deberiamos dejar de opinar por respeto a las victimas y sus familias.No se está especulando. Fue oficialmente anunciado que ya no es una misión de rescate. Los pensamientos de todos nosotros están con la tripulacióny sus familias.

We're not speculating. It was officially announced that the operation is no longer a rescue one. Our thoughts are with the crew and their families.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[ikalugin]

Looks like GUGI is aiding the search efforts.

[gambla]

"Only when the submarine is found and investigated will it be possible to know what really happened.
Everything that is said now is mere speculation, and we should stop saying it out of respect for the victims and their families."

this and nothing else, I hate to see starting the fingerpointing now

[ACR]

The ARA San Juan had been called back to port after the commander informed of a complication with one of the batteries. "Entry of seawater by ventilation system to battery tank No. 3 caused a short circuit and the beginning of a fire in the balcony of battery bars, bow batteries out of service, at the time of immersion, propelling with a split circuit. I will keep staff informed," Pedro Martín Fernández informed in a message via radio frequency.
ANALYSIS OF ACOUSTIC DETECTION OF THE
LOSS OF THE ARGENTINE SUBMARINE SAN JUAN
By Bruce Rule
An analytical review of all information released by the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty Organization on the acoustic signal associated with the loss of the Argentina Submarine ARA SAN JUAN confirms the following:
That acoustic signal originated near 46-10S, 59-42W at 1358Z (GMT) on 15 November 2017. It was produced by the collapse (implosion) of the ARA SAN JUAN pressure-hull at a depth of 1275-feet. Sea pressure at the collapse depth was 570 PSI. The frequency of the collapse event signal (bubble-pulse) was about 4.4 Hz.
The energy released by the collapse was equal to the explosion of 12,500 pounds of TNT at the depth of 1275-feet. That energy was produced by the nearly instantaneous conversion of potential energy (sea-pressure) to kinetic energy, the motion of the intruding water-ram which entered the SAN JUAN pressure-hull at a speed of about 1800 mph.
The entire pressure-hull was completely destroyed (fragmented/compacted) in about 40 milliseconds (0.040s or 1/25th of a second), the duration of the compression phase of the collapse event which is half the minimum time required for cognitive recognition of an event.
Although the crew may have known collapse was imminent, they never knew it was occurring. They did not drown or experience pain. Death was instantaneous.
The SAN JUAN wreckage sank vertically at an estimated speed between 10 and 13 knots. Bottom impact would not have produced an acoustic event detectable at long range.
The open question is: why was no corrective action - such as blowing ballast - taken by the SAN JUAN crew before the submarine sank to collapse depth? According to Argentine Navy spokesman Gabriel Galeazzi, the Commanding Officer of the SAN JUAN reported a "failure" in the submarine's "battery system," The time of that report was 0730 on 15 November, assumed to have been GMT. Subsequently, the problem was reported to have been "fixed." The SAN JUAN intended to submerged and continued its transit north. The SAN JUAN pressure-hull collapsed at 1358 GMT on 15 November.
In the case of the loss of the US nuclear submarine SCORPION (SSN 589), hydrogen out-gassed by the main battery exploded at 18:20:44 GMT on 22 May 1968 incapacitating/killing the crew with an atmospheric over-pressure in the battery well estimated to have been 7-10 times the fatal value. The pressure-hull was not breached. This assessment was based on analysis of acoustic detections of the event and damage observed in pieces of the fragmented battery recovered from the wreckage at a depth of 11,100 feet by the US submersible TRIESTE, e.g., microscopic, spectrographic and x-ray diffraction analyses. (There was no flooding of the pressure-hull before the battery exploded.)
SCORPION lost power and sank slowly over nearly 22 minutes to collapse at a depth of 1530-feet at 18:42:34 GMT on 22 May 1968.
There is the possibility that a similar sequence of events occurred aboard the SAN JUAN. If the wreck is located and efforts are made to recover components, emphasis should be placed on the battery system.
The author of this assessment was the lead acoustic analyst at the US Office of Naval Intelligence for 42 years, analyzed acoustic detectors of the loss of the USS THRESHER (SSN 593) on 10 April 1963 and testified before that Court of Inquiry. The author expresses his appreciation to those who supported this assessment with research and calculations.

do you have a source for this ? when you scroll up this thread it is close to what i assumed earlier but i,m wondering if this is some credible data . the only thing i see officially is the CTBTO at their homepage now speeks of an IMPLOSIVE not an explosive sound .

if that happened the only consolation for the families is the fact nobody suffered pain or a survival fight and the fact no rescue operation of this world could have saved them regardless how quick they would have found the boat.

also a very interesting question i have no clue of an answer : is an emergency blow loud enough to be detected by the microphones ? the question is if they ever tried to blow the ballast .

another thing to remember : the german shipyard can surely help with closely estimating the actual crush depth of a tr 1700 and should the first sound be indeed the crush of the hull and the second sound ( roughly 40 seconds later ) the wreckage hitting the bottom they can calculate the ocean depth where the sub is . now take the search area and look at depth charts which areas match the ocean depth . i,m sure such calculation are already made beyond media release.

of course still pure speculation and many open questions .

[Falkirion]

The information is freely available via the CTBTO, what investigators/sonar techs really need is the recordings of the events if any exist. Using those it would possibly lead to a better analysis than is currently available.
That said, if they find the boat any investigation results would probably be more accurate than what can be speculated only at this point and that's exactly what Rule is doing using incomplete data, which for me makes it hard to trust his opinion on the matter. I don't debate his credentials, I debate the accuracy of the information released.

[ACR]

the sound recorded is such low frequency over the huge discance that its beyond capabilities of the human ear so i guess any audio recordings have no use .

media claims russian rov,s are investigating two or three objects in about 3000ft waterdepth , further the russian spy/intelligence ship 'yantar' keeps on going from south africa to the search area with equipment on board capable to reach depths of 18000 feet ( at least russia claims it ) . i hope and believe they will find the sub .

does the usa still search for the sub ?

[ikalugin]

I thought that GUGI was on this case more or less from the begining?

[Gargamel]

From the SubSim Front page:

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Crew-of-Argentine-San-Juan-Submarine-Endured-Hours-of-Agony--20180406-0018.html


Investigators told the Nacion newspaper that the fires most likely spread throughout the stricken submarine, forcing the crew to battle the blaze in ferocious weather conditions.

Did I miss something and they find the boat? It seems to me from this brief article they are closing the book on the investigation. Without more facts, I feel they are jumping to conclusions.

[HunterICX]

She's been found:

The wreckage of a submarine which went missing with 44 crew on board a year ago has been found, the Argentine navy says.

The ARA San Juan submarine disappeared 430km (270 miles) off the Argentine coast on 15 November 2017.

The navy stopped its rescue mission two weeks after the sub's disappearance.

However, a year and a day after it went missing, officials announced it had been found 800m (2,620ft) below the surface of the Atlantic Ocean.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46245686

[Onkel Neal]

And https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46245686

However, a year and a day after it went missing, officials announced it had been found 800m (2,620ft) below the surface of the Atlantic Ocean.

According to a tweet from the Argentine navy, the ARA San Juan had been positively identified under the water by a US company.

The navy had earlier shared a picture from the seabed, suggesting a 60m-long object might be the missing submarine.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DsF1L14XcAAGwlu.jpg

[golfvictorwhiskey]

BBC says US company (salvage?) located 60m long object subsequently confirmed ARA San Juan.

Twitter image here:
https://twitter.com/Armada_Arg/status/1063259859511115776

Debris field looks quite concentrated. Can anyone quote crush depth for this type?

What degree of recovery wil be possible is moot, but this will provide some closure and certainty for the families. RIP.
GVW

[Pirate]

Debris field looks quite concentrated. Can anyone quote crush depth for this type?




For a TR-1700, possibly between 300 and 400m.

[Jimbuna]

Hopefully a great many people will soon be able to find some form of closure.

[Catfish]

"The wreckage of the submarine which went missing with 44 crew on board a year ago has been found, the Argentine navy says."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46245686

I did not find the original thread, nor with "ARA" nor with "San Juan", in the advanced search :hmmm:

[vienna]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=235528
















<O>

[Mr Quatro]

Subsim Front page news: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2577655#post2577655

She's been found:

Quote:
The wreckage of a submarine which went missing with 44 crew on board a year ago has been found, the Argentine navy says.

The ARA San Juan submarine disappeared 430km (270 miles) off the Argentine coast on 15 November 2017.

The navy stopped its rescue mission two weeks after the sub's disappearance.

However, a year and a day after it went missing, officials announced it had been found 800m (2,620ft) below the surface of the Atlantic Ocean.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46245686
__________________

[Cybermat47]

This submarine was clearly torpedoed. A German submarine can withstand more pressure than depth, than the ridiculous Virgina class. :03:



:salute:

Armada Argentina is reporting that the boat imploded. Probably something to do with the battery malfunction - maybe other systems were affected?

[Jimbuna]

Threads merged.