Open letter to the NFL players...read and share

[CaptainCruise]

Found this the other day and it hit pretty hard. Check it out and pass it on if you like:

An open letter to the NFL players,

You graduated high school in 2011. Your teenage years were a struggle. You grew up on the wrong side of the tracks. Your mother was the leader of the family and worked tirelessly to keep a roof over your head and food on your plate. Academics were a struggle for you and your grades were mediocre at best.. The only thing that made you stand out is you weighed 225 lbs and could run 40 yards in 4.2 seconds while carrying a football. Your best friend was just like you, except he didn’t play football. Instead of going to football practice after school, he went to work at McDonalds for minimum wage. You were recruited by all the big colleges and spent every weekend of your senior year making visits to universities where coaches and boosters tried to convince you their school was best. They laid out the red carpet for you. Your best friend worked double shifts at Mickey D’s. College was not an option for him. On the day you signed with Big State University, your best friend signed paperwork with his Army recruiter. You went to summer workouts. He went to basic training.
You spent the next four years living in the athletic dorm, eating at the training table. You spent your Saturdays on the football field, cheered on by adoring fans. Tutors attended to your every academic need. You attended class when you felt like it. Sure, you worked hard. You lifted weights, ran sprints, studied plays, and soon became one of the top football players in the country. Your best friend was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division. While you were in college, he deployed to Iraq once and Afghanistan twice. He became a Sergeant and led a squad of 19 year old soldiers who grew up just like he did. He shed his blood in Afghanistan and watched young American's give their lives, limbs, and innocence for the USA.
You went to the NFL combine and scored off the charts. You hired an agent and waited for draft day. You were drafted in the first round and your agent immediately went to work, ensuring that you received the most money possible. You signed for $16 million although you had never played a single down of professional football. Your best friend re-enlisted in the Army for four more years. As a combat tested sergeant, he will be paid $32,000 per year.
You will drive a Ferrari on the streets of South Beach. He will ride in the back of a Blackhawk helicopter with 10 other combat loaded soldiers. You will sleep at the Ritz. He will dig a hole in the ground and try to sleep. You will “make it rain” in the club. He will pray for rain as the temperature reaches 120 degrees.
On Sunday, you will run into a stadium as tens of thousands of fans cheer and yell your name. For your best friend, there is little difference between Sunday and any other day of the week. There are no adoring fans. There are only people trying to kill him and his soldiers. Every now and then, he and his soldiers leave the front lines and “go to the rear” to rest. He might be lucky enough to catch an NFL game on TV. When the National Anthem plays and you take a knee, he will jump to his feet and salute the television. While you protest the unfairness of life in the United States, he will give thanks to God that he has the honor of defending his great country.
To the players of the NFL: We are the people who buy your tickets, watch you on TV, and wear your jerseys. We anxiously wait for Sundays so we can cheer for you and marvel at your athleticism. Although we love to watch you play, we care little about your opinions until you offend us. You have the absolute right to express yourselves, but we have the absolute right to boycott you. We have tolerated your drug use and DUIs, your domestic violence, and your vulgar displays of wealth. We should be ashamed for putting our admiration of your physical skills before what is morally right. But now you have gone too far. You have insulted our flag, our country, our soldiers, our police officers, and our veterans. You are living the American dream, yet you disparage our great country. I am done with NFL football and encourage all like minded Americans to boycott the NFL as well.
--- SHARE, SHARE, SHARE ---

National boycott of the NFL for Sunday November 12th, Veterans Day Weekend. Boycott all football telecast, all fans, all ticket holders, stay away from attending any games, let them play to empty stadiums. Pass this post along to all your friends and family. Honor our military, some of whom come home with the American Flag draped over their coffin.


Thanks for reading.....
"CC"
:subsim:

[Dowly]

How about you go play on a minefield?

[Catfish]

There is so much wrong in this text.. pretty much sums up what is wrong in this world.

[u crank]

How about you go play on a minefield?

How about you cut that out?

[Dowly]

How about you cut that out?Why? It was a stupid answer to a equally stupid post.

[u crank]

Why? It was a stupid answer to a equally stupid post.

Well if you think it was a stupid post why don't you explain why you think that?

[Dowly]

Well if you think it was a stupid post why don't you explain why you think that? Because it accused NFL players who kneeled of a) disrespect the flag b)disrespect the country and c) disrespect the soldiers who fought for their freedom to do just that.

That is my quick, drunken, Finnish explanation of it as I understand it.

[Subnuts]

https://us-east-1.tchyn.io/snopes-production/uploads/2017/10/Deadspin-full-flag-sitting-guy_blur-1.jpg

[u crank]

That is my quick, drunken, Finnish explanation of it as I understand it.

I guess that is better than no explanation.

[ET2SN]

Someone has something backwards. :03:

The citizens don't bow to soldiers, its the soldiers who bow to the citizens. :yep:

Think of who paid you when you wore a uniform. Sometimes we forget that.
Those pampered NFL players pay a lot in taxes, I think its fair that they get to express their opinion.

Besides, my team is tied at the top of the division. :)

[Dowly]

I guess that is better than no explanation.I gave you explanation, you chose to ignore it. Right there post #7 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2520208&postcount=7), you seem to have missed it.

[Commander Wallace]

I gave you explanation, you chose to ignore it. Right there post #7 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2520208&postcount=7), you seem to have missed it.


U crank wasn't debating the merits of the pros and cons of kneeling during an anthem. U crank was saying the comment " go play in a minefield was uncalled for. I also agree.

To be fair, I don't think these players meant to be disrespectful but rather wanted to call attention to an unequal application of the law. It just back fired on these players in how they chose to make their feelings known and the forum in which they chose to do it.

[Rockstar]

Those NFL players, even drunken Finlanders have every right to peacefully protest. Not too long ago Kapernick took a knee in peaceful protest of perceived injustice. Now the very reason he took a knee has been swept under the rug and forgotten. Hijacked by so called patriots accusing him and others of being un-American for not venerating an inanimate object.

[u crank]

I gave you explanation, you chose to ignore it. Right there post #7 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2520208&postcount=7), you seem to have missed it.

I didn't miss it. I'm just not drunk enough (yet) to comment on it. :O:

[Dowly]

U crank wasn't debating the merits of the pros and cons of kneeling during an anthem. U crank was saying the comment " go play in a minefield was uncalled for. I also agree.He asked me to explain myself, I did. Read the posted replies before answering. It is not rocket science, I explained myself did I?

[August]

He asked me to explain myself, I did. Read the posted replies before answering. It is not rocket science, I explained myself did I?

Thing is Dowly you have a habit of wishing a gruesome death on forum members. Such very personal insults have no place in the forum and you know it.

[PoorOldSpike]

Here in Britain we've heard that some US blacks are disrespecting the flag by refusing to stand during the national anthem.
I don't get it! I mean, you'd think they'd be proud to stand for the flag considering it flew at the forefront of the Union's drive to end slavery..:)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub4/sub4002/war-charge_zpsditlzery.jpg~original

[August]

Here in Britain we've heard that some US blacks are disrespecting the flag by refusing to stand during the national anthem.
I don't get it! I mean, you'd think they'd be proud to stand for the flag considering it flew at the forefront of the Union's drive to end slavery..:)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub4/sub4002/war-charge_zpsditlzery.jpg~original

Unfortunately according to some folks all the men portrayed in this painting are racists because they are white.

[Dowly]

Thing is Dowly you have a habit of wishing a gruesome death on forum members. Such very personal insults have no place in the forum and you know it.That's what, the 3rd time you try to bait me? Neal, Mods?

Oh wait, immunity, sorry forgot.

PS. Sources for those "gruesome" deaths?

PPS. Before any moderation action is taken, I would really like to see August post some examples of me "wishing a gruesome death on forum members" (plural). Thank you.

[Buddahaid]

Dowly, it boils down to who the "you" is you're referring to when you wrote "How about you go play on a minefield".

[CaptainCruise]

Dowly, it boils down to who the "you" is you're referring to when you wrote "How about you go play on a minefield".



I think he meant me.

Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut and never posted this. After reading all the replies I'm sorry I said anything. Next time I'll keep my opinions to myself.

[Onkel Neal]

U crank wasn't debating the merits of the pros and cons of kneeling during an anthem. U crank was saying the comment " go play in a minefield was uncalled for. I also agree.



I agree also, very nonconstructive comments like this belong on a youtube comments section, not here. Dowly, please consider being less disrespectful of the other members of this forum.

Tom, you have every right to express your thoughts on the matter with getting sucker punched, carry on.

[Falkirion]

There's all types of patriots. There's some that agree with the stance that the players are taking and there's some that don't. At the end of the day both sides are entitled to express their own political opinion without fear of harassment/retaliation of those who don't agree with it.

[CaptainCruise]

Someone has something backwards. :03:

The citizens don't bow to soldiers, its the soldiers who bow to the citizens. :yep:

Think of who paid you when you wore a uniform. Sometimes we forget that.
Those pampered NFL players pay a lot in taxes, I think its fair that they get to express their opinion.

Besides, my team is tied at the top of the division. :)


Serious.....pay a lot in taxes? And the guy in uniform may potentially pay with his life.

They absolutely have the right to express their opinion, but did they have to pick something this disrespectful?

Maybe being disrespectful is the only way to get attention in the country anymore.

[Buddahaid]

And the "you" could have meant football players. After all it is a second language for Dowly. I'm sure I could be pretty offensive trying to speak Finnish.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

National boycott of the NFL for Sunday November 12th, Veterans Day Weekend. Boycott all football telecast, all fans, all ticket holders, stay away from attending any games, let them play to empty stadiums. Pass this post along to all your friends and family. Honor our military, some of whom come home with the American Flag draped over their coffin.

Perhaps all that's needed to counter this is to say that getting overexcited over the flag is also a practice encouraged by Communist China (on Oct 1, people can go to jail for insulting their flag).

Maybe this thought can provoke a rethink in the "patriotic American" that wrote this...

[Commander Wallace]

He asked me to explain myself, I did. Read the posted replies before answering. It is not rocket science, I explained myself did I?


I did read it. I suggest you look at your post when you are sober as you explained in post # 7 that you were in your own words, " druken. " "Perhaps you should refrain from posting in the Subsim Forums when you are in such a state. It may save you a lot of grief. You simply just wanted to pick a fight with U Crank who is probably one of the most even keeled members here.

I believe the reason the thread was posted Dowly was to invite a thoughtful discussion, not what you all too frequently do. By the way Dowly,
http://i.imgur.com/HFMba1Y.png



Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut and never posted this. After reading all the replies I'm sorry I said anything. Next time I'll keep my opinions to myself.


You didn't do anything wrong as the letter you posted as part of your thread was a sobering reminder of the sacrifices made by our people in uniform like the military. As mentioned, you were inviting an open, honest and intelligent discussion on a current news Item that the U.S and it's citizens are grappling with.

Unfortunately for the players, what was meant to be a protest against unfair applications of the law was derailed or morphed into a protest against the country which is not what the players were trying to accomplish.

By the way CaptainCruise, I thought this was a great thread that you started and very timely. Nice job. :Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

[Onkel Neal]

Perhaps all that's needed to counter this is to say that getting overexcited over the flag is also a practice encouraged by Communist China (on Oct 1, people can go to jail for insulting their flag).

Maybe this thought can provoke a rethink in the "patriotic American" that wrote this...

I think because we have so much more real personal and collective freedom than the Chinese is a really big reason seeing the nation's symbol ignorantly disrespected is why it bugs some of us so much.

But you may disagree, I won't try to shut you down. :salute:

[ET2SN]

Serious.....pay a lot in taxes? And the guy in uniform may potentially pay with his life.

They absolutely have the right to express their opinion, but did they have to pick something this disrespectful?

Maybe being disrespectful is the only way to get attention in the country anymore.

I'm just suggesting to look at it another way. :03:

You're stationed just south of the 38th parallel and you've got some time off. All you want to do is kick back, turn on AFRTS and watch the game before you go back on duty.

Do you care about a boycott or do you just want to watch the game?

[Sean C]

I think the players have a right to protest, and I don't think they should go to jail for doing it. Personally, I think that would be a violation of their First Amendment rights. Part of what defines the United States is the ability to express one's opinion, no matter how objectionable, and that applies to everyone.

I also think the team owners and NFL executives have a right to run their business how they see fit in order to keep it profitable. And the fans have a right to express their disapproval of the behavior of the people whom they have paid to entertain them. Americans may be guaranteed the right to free expression and to petition the government, but nowhere in the Constitution is anyone guaranteed the right to keep their job. You can say whatever you want...you just have to realize that you may end up penniless doing so. It's up to each individual to decide how commited they are to their "cause".

Finally, I think the players have made a very poor choice of how and when to protest. The Star Spangled Banner is not the anthem of the police. It's not the anthem of the judicial system, the military or the government. It is the anthem of the American people. The free and the brave people who make up all of those institutions. It represents all Americans, including the players themselves. It represents the very freedom the players are exercising in order to protest and the people who have died to protect that freedom and those who continue to do so. The players can say they do not intend to disrespect the country or our soldiers all they want. But, that's exactly what many Americans feel they are doing...including me. I find it distasteful at best and disgraceful at worst.

...But I'd still die to protect their right to do it.

[vienna]

Those NFL players, even drunken Finlanders have every right to peacefully protest. Not too long ago Kapernick took a knee in peaceful protest of perceived injustice. Now the very reason he took a knee has been swept under the rug and forgotten. Hijacked by so called patriots accusing him and others of being un-American for not venerating an inanimate object.

How does that saying go?: "Patriotism is the last refuge of...?"; oh what was that word?... Oh yes, "Trumpettes"...

I'm sometimes surprised Trump doesn't burst into flames when he hugs the Flag...







<O>

[u crank]

Those NFL players, even drunken Finlanders have every right to peacefully protest.

That is true and as it should be. But when and where? These guys are on the job and highly paid when they are doing this. Imagine if you will, being confronted by this kind of thing everyday and all day as you attempt to buy goods and services. It would not be tolerated. The players are getting away with it because the NFL is letting them. The NFL is disrespecting their customers and should expect the full force of the rights of consumers to complain about it. I hope this national boycott of the NFL on the Veterans Day Weekend is a huge success. After all everybody has the right to protest ...don't they?

[Rockstar]

Like I said I believe the original intent had nothing to do with disrespecting fans, customers, flags, or country. It had everything to do with one mans belief, real or perceived, of injustices towards others. And when it started to snowball into something about the flag instead. I think that elicited other Americans to protest with him and now they too are demonized.

The reason for this peaceful protest appears to have been entirely disregarded and forgotten. Sadly the argument is no longer about why he did what he did. Its now about the fact he did, how he should be ashamed for such a deed and cursing the NFL for not firing him sooner.

[Buddahaid]

How many people have had jobs outside the armed forces that required singing the national anthem before work started? I'm nearing retirement and I haven't had one ever.

[Rockstar]

Good point and even then, when we knew the flag was being hoisted or lowered there was no requirement compelling us to go outside to render honors.

[u crank]

Like I said I believe the original intent had nothing to do with disrespecting fans, customers, flags, or country. It had everything to do with one mans belief, real or perceived, of injustices towards others.

I would agree but I think it was a poorly thought out plan of action for a number of reasons....

I don't think Kaepernick took any consideration as to how this would play out or the reactions of fans and yes even politicians. Or how it would effect his career. Obviously some of those people didn't like it and their reaction should not have been a surprise.

What is the end game here? Does Kaepernick honestly think that this protest, which seems to have lost all meaning, have a positive effect on race relations in America? It seems to have had the opposite effect and caused an even deeper polarization of views. Quite similar to protesters blocking traffic. And when does the protest stop? How can you call it off and declare a victory?

Finally I have to ask...could they have done something different? NFL players have enormous celebrity status, gobs of money, 200 days off and all the media attention they want. Surely they could have collectively come up with something that would have had a positive effect and got everybody on their side.

[mapuc]

I'm divided on this issue/question

I understand those NFL-players who kneels as a protest

I also understand those who see this as a disrespect to the flag and the country.

Ok, maybe some will say "It's just a flag, so what" or similar.

And some may say "the flag is the spirit of the country and should be met with respect".

I myself would never kneel in front of the Danish and the Swedish flag or other flags.

Markus

[Schroeder]

How many people have had jobs outside the armed forces that required singing the national anthem before work started? I'm nearing retirement and I haven't had one ever.
YOU HATE AMERICA!!!!:o


:O::D

[Rockstar]

I would agree but I think it was a poorly thought out plan of action for a number of reasons....

I don't think Kaepernick took any consideration as to how this would play out or the reactions of fans and yes even politicians. Or how it would effect his career. Obviously some of those people didn't like it and their reaction should not have been a surprise.

What is the end game here? Does Kaepernick honestly think that this protest, which seems to have lost all meaning, have a positive effect on race relations in America? It seems to have had the opposite effect and caused an even deeper polarization of views. Quite similar to protesters blocking traffic. And when does the protest stop? How can you call it off and declare a victory?

Finally I have to ask...could they have done something different? NFL players have enormous celebrity status, gobs of money, 200 days off and all the media attention they want. Surely they could have collectively come up with something that would have had a positive effect and got everybody on their side.

I believe he had a right to do what he did and should not be condemned for it and the his reasons for doing so should not have been lost in the shuffle. But I also agree with you one should always without fail consider the consequences of their actions. As it does seem too me it wasn't all that well thought out.

[August]

How many people have had jobs outside the armed forces that required singing the national anthem before work started? I'm nearing retirement and I haven't had one ever.


Singing? Who is being asked to sing the national anthem?

[Oberon]

America:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/09/26/TELEMMGLPICT000141808094_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqhZ6q9gR WunpqPEAk--vaW7T5LfTkYhqvBvjfatlPy1M.jpeg

Fought in WWII, hates America

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/9f2c77c49ee5c8c5597ec74afecf329ec1d3fc20/r=540/https/media.gannett-cdn.com/29906170001/29906170001_5587125774001_5587119822001-vs.jpg

Got spurs, loves America.

:yeah:

[Buddahaid]

Singing? Who is being asked to sing the national anthem?

Splitting hairs? No one but athletes participating in sporting spectacles are subject to having the national anthem performed before they begin "work" then. Anyway, the upshot for me is I don't really care what they do. Football lost me years ago.

[CaptainCruise]

You didn't do anything wrong as the letter you posted as part of your thread was a sobering reminder of the sacrifices made by our people in uniform like the military. As mentioned, you were inviting an open, honest and intelligent discussion on a current news Item that the U.S and it's citizens are grappling with.

Unfortunately for the players, what was meant to be a protest against unfair applications of the law was derailed or morphed into a protest against the country which is not what the players were trying to accomplish.

By the way CaptainCruise, I thought this was a great thread that you started and very timely. Nice job. :Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

Thanks for the prop. I think I needed one. Felt like I got clubbed a bit! :timeout: :haha:

I don't know about the boycott that the original author of this post is asking for. I get the feeling this person is current military, or the family of someone in the military or maybe family of a soldier who was KIA'ed, and they're venting their emotions any way they feel they can. It's asking a lot, and I don't see a lot of people being that committed to going through with a boycott like this, but some will do it, and maybe that was the goal....at least turn a few heads.

As for the players, I'll say it again.....yes, they absolutely have the right to protest and make their feelings known. The issue they created here is choosing how you voice your opinions without starting a whole new problem. There are right ways and wrong ways to speak your mind and protest an injustice. I think they chose the wrong path to follow because now it seems like they've created more problems than what they started with by choosing something as touchy as disrespecting the National Anthem and the flag. Maybe they felt that would get them the most attention to their cause, or maybe they feel the flag and Anthem are symbols of what they believe is wrong with this country. Honestly, I don't know. It's a confusing issue. I would have to say what I believe the most is that they should have found a better way to voice their opinions without inflaming the situation. As u crank mentioned earlier in this thread....they have money, power, media exposure, they had plenty of options to choose a better voice for their cause, they just chose poorly and started a whole new problem. Instead of getting the public to rally to their cause, they turned many away and it will probably make this whole nightmare more difficult to resolve.

[Rockstar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=83&v=x1ZQawbo4Mo

“It (“Feliciano's rendition) was a disgrace, an insult,” a baseball fan, Arlene Raicevich of Detroit, told The Associated Press. “I’m going to write my senator about it.”

“It sounded like a hippie was singing it,” said another Detroiter, Bernie Gray.

Pitcher Dick Hughes said: “Thumbs down all the way. That’s a conformist’s song and should be sung the way it was written.” (We should add, there is no official version.)

But their teammate Tim McCarver said: “Why not that way? People go through a routine when they play the anthem. They stand up and yawn and almost fall asleep. This way, at least they listened.”

In the 1950s, the Baltimore Orioles, of all teams, decided that playing "The Banner" before every game cheapened its impact. The general manager at the time decided that he was going to only play it during special occasions.

[Onkel Neal]

If these ball players wanted to help their cause they went about it the wrong way.

[razark]

I'm not sure why it's disrespecting the flag or the anthem. The players are acknowledging it. They're kneeling and remaining silent. Just because they're not doing what everyone expects them to* doesn't mean they are showing disrespect. Disrespect would be quite different. Burning the flag, dragging it through the mud, ignoring it, talking to each other, walking out, turning their backs, disturbing fans or teammates that choose not to join their protest? That's disrespect.


*Is it actually "showing respect" if you just do it because you're expected to or because everyone else is doing it?
As quoted above, "People go through a routine when they play the anthem. They stand up and yawn and almost fall asleep." And "That’s a conformist’s song...", said without irony.

[ET2SN]

Where's the rage at the other folks who dis-repect the flag?

You can see it in almost every neighborhood. There are flags that have been flying 24/7 for the last six years. They don't go up smartly at 8 AM, they don't get lowered respectfully at sunset. They just fly until there's nothing left but the grommets.

Yeah, I know. They're civilians and its allowed. I think that's a pretty big hint for this topic. :03:

[August]

Where's the rage at the other folks who dis-repect the flag?

You can see it in almost every neighborhood. There are flags that have been flying 24/7 for the last six years. They don't go up smartly at 8 AM, they don't get lowered respectfully at sunset. They just fly until there's nothing left but the grommets.

Yeah, I know. They're civilians and its allowed. I think that's a pretty big hint for this topic. :03:

You're missing the context here. Do these 24/7 flag fliers depend upon the financial support of a group of people who would get upset over it?

NFL players have every right to kneel during the national anthem but the fans also have a right to express their displeasure at the practice. More importantly they also have to right to punctuate that displeasure by not spending their money to support a league that would allow it to happen.

[ET2SN]

I'm not sure why it's disrespecting the flag or the anthem. The players are acknowledging it. They're kneeling and remaining silent. Just because they're not doing what everyone expects them to* doesn't mean they are showing disrespect. Disrespect would be quite different. Burning the flag, dragging it through the mud, ignoring it, talking to each other, walking out, turning their backs, disturbing fans or teammates that choose not to join their protest? That's disrespect.


*Is it actually "showing respect" if you just do it because you're expected to or because everyone else is doing it?
As quoted above, "People go through a routine when they play the anthem. They stand up and yawn and almost fall asleep." And "That’s a conformist’s song...", said without irony.

Actually, there are cases where burning the flag isn't a sign of dis-respect. :yep:

If a flag has become faded/worn, stained, or dirty to the point where it can't be repaired it should be burned. The idea is that you don't want to see an old flag sitting on a trash heap at the local dump. (see my last post)

As a sign of distress (a mayday or SOS signal). If the scouts are out on a patrol and the fort is attacked, as an example. This is also the reason why flags are burned as a sign of protest. The people aren't protesting because everything is just ducky.

[razark]

Actually, there are cases where burning the flag isn't a sign of dis-respect.
True, but I trust we all know that this discussion is not about that kind of flag burning.

[ET2SN]

Do these 24/7 flag fliers depend upon the financial support of a group of people who would get upset over it?



Well, heck yeah. I imagine they have to go to work somewhere and someone pays them. :03:

[ET2SN]

True, but I trust we all know that this discussion is not about that kind of flag burning.

Just to repeat, with emphasis added:

As a sign of distress (a mayday or SOS signal). If the scouts are out on a patrol and the fort is attacked, as an example. This is also the reason why flags are burned as a sign of protest. The people aren't protesting because everything is just ducky.

[ET2SN]

PS to August;

Not to side-track this thread, but I really like your banner. :up:
I'm nervous but enthused this year. Hopefully, Brady can keep these guys together but there are a lot of holes to fill before they can start thinking about the post season. :hmmm:

[em2nought]

If things aren't ducky, I suggest people start to look inward instead of blaming others for it. :03:

[ET2SN]

If things aren't ducky, I suggest people start to look inward instead of blaming others for it. :03:

You probably haven't been invaded by the Brits. :haha:
A long time ago, they used to teach a class called Civics in grade school.
I learned that Democracy is a great thing but you have to be willing to accept the whole bag and not just the parts you like. :salute:

[Catfish]

[...]the original intent had nothing to do with disrespecting fans, customers, flags, or country. It had everything to do with one mans belief, real or perceived, of injustices towards others. And when it started to snowball into something about the flag instead. I think that elicited other Americans to protest with him and now they too are demonized.

The reason for this peaceful protest appears to have been entirely disregarded and forgotten. [...]

Oops agreeing with Rockstar.. :hmmm:
^ That, this snowballing was directed and demonised by some allergic right wing media, trying to bring up a topic they are always interested in, but with what the original action had nothing to do with. A real orchestrated action to divert from the real problem that they try to sweep under the carpet by diverting and desinformation.

You know you can write an essay about your walk to work, mentioning sunflowers and seeing a US flag on the way; and instantly e.g. Breitbart will accuse you of not honouring it and trying to create a media storm discussing values and patriotism, and the NRA will criticize that you do not mention a gun.

It is all about twisting everything in a direction that interests them, and diverting from problems they should be accused for. Don't fall for it.

[CaptainCruise]

We all have our own opinions on this. Not all of us agree, some of us disagree quite.......vigorously. :yep: But there is one thing I think we can all agree on, and that is this mess is not going away anytime soon. At least until the end of football season, and then some jock in a different sport will probably carry on the cause while his football brother is home for the off season.

My hero's...... :k_confused:

[Sean C]

Where's the rage at the other folks who dis-repect the flag?

You can see it in almost every neighborhood. There are flags that have been flying 24/7 for the last six years. They don't go up smartly at 8 AM, they don't get lowered respectfully at sunset. They just fly until there's nothing left but the grommets.

Yeah, I know. They're civilians and its allowed. I think that's a pretty big hint for this topic. :03:

I did see the last couple of sentences there, but I'd just like to point out:

4 U.S. Code § 6 - Time and occasion for display.

(a) It is the universal custom to display the flag only from sunrise to sunset on buildings and on stationary flagstaffs in the open. However, when a patriotic effect is desired, the flag may be displayed 24 hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness.

(Emphasis added.)

I do agree that leaving the flag up until it is tattered is disrespectful, and I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't illuminate it at night. However, I still think both of those things are far less disrespectful than sitting or kneeling during the anthem. I might even classify the former as simply misguided or lazy. At least they're flying a flag and trying to show their patriotism.

[Note: I fly a flag (or, more technically, a banner) at my home. It is always illuminated at night and I replace it when it becomes worn and/or faded. I have the old ones folded on a bookshelf waiting to be given to the Boy Scouts for proper destruction per 4 U.S. Code § 8.]

[Onkel Neal]

Oops agreeing with Rockstar.. :hmmm:
^ That, this snowballing was directed and demonised by some allergic right wing media, trying to bring up a topic they are always interested in, but with what the original action had nothing to do with. A real orchestrated action to divert from the real problem that they try to sweep under the carpet by diverting and desinformation.

You know you can write an essay about your walk to work, mentioning sunflowers and seeing a US flag on the way; and instantly e.g. Breitbart will accuse you of not honouring it and trying to create a media storm discussing values and patriotism, and the NRA will criticize that you do not mention a gun.

It is all about twisting everything in a direction that interests them, and diverting from problems they should be accused for. Don't fall for it.

There is an element of that, no doubt. Some factions will hype these things for their own good and purposes.

[August]

Well, heck yeah. I imagine they have to go to work somewhere and someone pays them. :03:

That brings up a whole new argument. To what extent your boss can spy on you outside of work? :)

[Rockstar]

Where's the rage at the other folks who dis-repect the flag?

You can see it in almost every neighborhood. There are flags that have been flying 24/7 for the last six years. They don't go up smartly at 8 AM, they don't get lowered respectfully at sunset. They just fly until there's nothing left but the grommets.

Yeah, I know. They're civilians and its allowed. I think that's a pretty big hint for this topic. :03:

It is my understanding there is absolutely no regulation civilian or military which prevents the 24 hour display of the National Ensign. There is however Army and Navy flag code which state the times a National Ensign shall be displayed on military land installations and ships import and at sea. I know of several military installations that fly Old Glory 24 hours which also satisfies the 0800 to Sunset required times it must be on display. Ships at sea display it 24 hours a day as well.

[Aktungbby]

^ Yeah that. As a former Fed guard charged with raising the colors at Federal buildings and lowering them....meticulously;
Most people believe you are not allowed to fly the stars and stripes at night. However, this is only partly true. According to the US Flag Code, all American flags (http://www.cvsflags.com/usflag.cfm) should be displayed from sunrise to sunset every day. Lowering the flag at night is an ultimate sign of respect for Old Glory.
But like many rules, there is an exception. You can keep your flag flying 24-hours if it is properly illuminated during all hours of darkness. But what exactly is “proper illumination?” The American Legion interprets that as a light source that is specifically placed to light up the flag at night. The light must be bright enough that the US flag is recognizable by the casual observer passing by. ...with my own and the neighbors oversensitive motion detector porch & garage mounted lights etc including long time solar path lights, the illumination requirement is sufficiently met: the banner is 'recognizable'.

[Platapus]

What I find disrespectful to our flag is when I see athletes draping the US flag over their sweating body, turning our flag into a sweat rag. I see that every Olympics but no one seems to be upset at that.

Why is that an acceptable way of "showing pride" but kneeling during a song is disrespectful?

If we are going to battle flag disrespect, lets go after the real offenders first.

I can, of course, only speak for myself, but as a 20 year military veteran who is still in service to our country as a civilian (pushing 35 years of total service) I am not offended nor do I feel disrespected at what some of the NFL players are doing.

To be honest, I feel a small amount of pride. My service to my country is to ensure that our citizens have the right to peaceably protest.

I am grateful that we live in a country where this is allowed even if I personally disagree with the protest or the manner of the protest.....actually especially if I disagree with the protest or the manner of the protest.

I would like to have every citizen choose to stand for our national anthem, but would fight against any attempt to force our citizens to do so.

Forcing citizens to mimic the actions of patriotism accomplishes nothing and is something I would expect to see in North Korea or Iran.

[Sean C]

Well said, Platapus.

I do think this guy is awesome, though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fegvA0U5VwI

[Commander Wallace]

There are a lot of good points being made here. I did want to add perhaps another point to consider. Athletes, musical artists, actors and really anyone in the public eye are judged by a different set of rules than the general public. In the case of sports, it's only when an athlete misbehaves that we hear of them. There is a always a rush to judgment without knowing the facts.

These people are in fact a small minority. There are a great number of athletes, musical artists and the like who give of their time and money freely and without any fanfare and do so in an anonymous fashion. It's never reported as reporters spend more time trying to become the news rather than report it. The good deeds by these athletes / artists are rarely reported as quite honestly, tabloid news relies on the ratings and revenue of reporting distorted facts and bad news about people.

I personally know a gentleman who played football in my hometown for a rival football team. This man went to college and played football professionally in the NFL. He earned various degrees with hard work while playing football and even after he retired. After his playing days were over, he accepted a position with a junior college and took it upon himself to initiate what can be best be described as an " outreach " program. The goal of the program is to help those individuals trapped by crime in the inner cities into being able to make positive changes in their life with the ultimate goal of going to and graduating from college. He also works with a number of past and present pro football players from the local team with the same goal. As he once told me, " These kids are really the only thing that matters." It goes without saying that I have a great admiration for him even though his football team used to pound mine every year. :03: He has been offered better paying and more visible positions with better known 4 year colleges but has turned them down. He told me he wouldn't be able to do what he is doing now and as he said, " these kids need me." This is just another example of people who toil in anonymity. News like this is never reported because it's not considered " newsworthy. "

In the case of the current pro football players, I truly believe that they wanted to use their high visibility to do some good and call attention to a disparity in law enforcement. The disparity may be real or perceived but certainly, video footage has captured citizens being outright executed by over zealous law enforcement. Using the same logic as above, these officers are I'm sure in the minority and also make decent law enforcement officers look bad. Although the football players efforts backfired, they can be commended for coming together to make positive and concrete efforts to bring about some much needed changes.

As for the National Anthem, I stand and salute no matter if I am at the actual sporting event or watching on TV. I'm sure others do the same for their respective National Anthems in their own countries.

[CaptainCruise]

[QUOTE=Commander Wallace;2520656]There are a lot of good points being made here................QUOTE]


Nice job Commander.

Unfortunately the situation looks like it just got kicked up another level. Apparently the owner of the Texans made some very inappropriate comment regarding the players and got caught doing it. The players responded by almost the entire team kneeling for the anthem during the last game. The owner apologized and tried to repair the damage done, but it doesn't seem like the players wanna hear it. Now Kapernick is suing the President and I think some of the owners citing collusion on their part when he was a free agent in 2016, claiming they discussed reasons for not signing him to a contract because of his actions with the kneeling which he began that year and that he was a bad influence, or something to that effect.

When it rains........ack.

[Commander Wallace]

[QUOTE=Commander Wallace;2520656]There are a lot of good points being made here................QUOTE]


Nice job Commander.

Unfortunately the situation looks like it just got kicked up another level. Apparently the owner of the Texans made some very inappropriate comment regarding the players and got caught doing it. The players responded by almost the entire team kneeling for the anthem during the last game. The owner apologized and tried to repair the damage done, but it doesn't seem like the players wanna hear it. Now Kapernick is suing the President and I think some of the owners citing collusion on their part when he was a free agent in 2016, claiming they discussed reasons for not signing him to a contract because of his actions with the kneeling which he began that year and that he was a bad influence, or something to that effect.

When it rains........ack.

Thanks Capt.

I saw this earlier yesterday. I didn't watch any of the games yesterday as I had more important things going on, including spending time with the family. Further, the games seem to have been pushed off to the side as the NFL has become more of a " Soap Opera " and not a collection of sporting events. If I want to see a soap opera, I will turn one on. This is just another example of how ineffective Roger Goodell is as the commissioner of the NFL.

I think the players were trying to make a statement but enough is enough.

[CaptainCruise]

[QUOTE=CaptainCruise;2520962]

Thanks Capt.

I saw this earlier yesterday. I didn't watch any of the games yesterday as I had more important things going on, including spending time with the family. Further, the games seem to have been pushed off to the side as the NFL has become more of a " Soap Opera " and not a collection of sporting events. If I want to see a soap opera, I will turn one on. This is just another example of how ineffective Roger Goodell is as the commissioner of the NFL.

I think the players were trying to make a statement but enough is enough.


Agreed. I think we've all had enough of this nonsense. You hit the nail on the head. There are more important things going on, and spending time with the family was a much better choice. Bravo. I'll probably watch the last of October baseball...AWESOME game 5 btw....and go hibernate until spring training. Football was my 2nd favorite, but honestly the Giants and Jets are draining the life out of me. Oyyyyyy.........:doh:

[Platapus]

https://s17-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Ft0.gstatic.com%2Fimage s%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcRFACAETflUpnligCAHeTCpeNHCUx0O 4uisUDlK7Nm8XAuqvtu_zw&sp=82f153447ae3f235e8e1e299de6c0cc1&anticache=260308

if this is disrespecting the flag

https://s17-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Ft0.gstatic.com%2Fimage s%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcT1mB0G_anZ237JZYrVouxP4gfpaQ1O zjNe7W2D2xl3QVH2r9Jy&sp=f118fb8024f740b84b5a49e77ba57416&anticache=140088

Then what is this?

Where are the protests?

[Buddahaid]

But what about this?
http://perspectyve.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Captain-America.jpg

[August]

Where are the protests?

Maybe intent actually matters eh? Of your two pictures one is intended to be a figurative middle finger to the nation and the other is a spontaneous act of patriotic pride.

[Buddahaid]

So it all boils down to personal feelings, not law.

[August]

So it all boils down to personal feelings, not law.

Well of course. Who said it was about law?

[Buddahaid]

Okay, we agree. There are, however, laws dictating how the flag is to be displayed but no law demanding behavior during the national anthem. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[August]

Okay, we agree. There are, however, laws dictating how the flag is to be displayed but no law demanding behavior during the national anthem. Correct me if I'm wrong.

There are guidelines on how the flag is to be displayed, not laws. Big difference. Suggestions that nobody is going to jail or even pay a fine for not following.

As for the kneeling controversy you are correct as far as I know that there is no law (outside of the military of course) demanding a certain behavior during the national anthem, however, neither is there one preventing employers from demanding that their employees stand during the anthem to avoid irritating their customers. Nor is there one that says the customers have to meekly accept and continue to financially support this behavior if they allow it.

Besides if the NFL can't or shouldn't prevent players from kneeling during the game anthem because it's some big freedom of speech issue then why was it able to prevent the following with little or no argument from FoS advocates?

— In 2012 the NFL had an issue with Tim Tebow kneeling for each game to pray; they also had an issue with Tebow wearing John 3:16 as part of his blackout to avoid glare and made him take it off.
— In 2013 the NFL fined Brandon Marshall for wearing green cleats to raise awareness for people with mental health disorders.
— In 2014 Robert Griffin III (RG3) entered a post-game press conference wearing a shirt that said “Know Jesus Know Peace” but was forced to turn it inside out by an NFL uniform inspector before speaking at the podium.
— In 2015 DeAngelo Williams was fined for wearing “Find the Cure” (under) eye black for breast cancer awareness.
— In 2015 William Gay was fined for wearing purple cleats to raise awareness for domestic violence.
— In 2016 the NFL prevented the Dallas Cowboys from wearing a decal on their helmet in honor of five Dallas Police officers killed in the line of duty during a BLM protest where they put themselves in harms way to protect the protesters.
— In 2016 the NFL threatened to fine players who wanted to wear cleats to commemorate the 15th anniversary of 9/11, when this country lost more people than when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.


http://www.bladenjournal.com/opinion/14746/why-the-nflis-hypocriticalover-kneeling

[Dowly]

Besides if the NFL can't or shouldn't prevent players from kneeling during the game anthem because it's some big freedom of speech issue then why was it able to prevent the following with little or no argument from FoS advocates?



http://www.bladenjournal.com/opinion/14746/why-the-nflis-hypocriticalover-kneeling
All but the first example broke NFL rules.

EDIT: And Tim Tebow was not penalized for kneeling, was he?

[Rockstar]

I vote owners ban the playing of the national anthem at sporting events.

[August]

All but the first example broke NFL rules.

EDIT: And Tim Tebow was not penalized for kneeling, was he?

What is the difference? He was told that he had to stop doing it. It's a double standard any way you want to look at it.

[Dowly]

He was told that he had to stop doing it.Not by the NFL, was he?

[Commander Wallace]

There are guidelines on how the flag is to be displayed, not laws. Big difference. Suggestions that nobody is going to jail or even pay a fine for not following.

There are guidelines on how the flag is to be displayed, not laws. Big difference. Suggestions that nobody is going to jail or even pay a fine for not following.

As for the kneeling controversy you are correct as far as I know that there is no law (outside of the military of course) demanding a certain behavior during the national anthem, however, neither is there one preventing employers from demanding that their employees stand during the anthem to avoid irritating their customers. Nor is there one that says the customers have to meekly accept and continue to financially support this behavior if they allow it.

Besides if the NFL can't or shouldn't prevent players from kneeling during the game anthem because it's some big freedom of speech issue then why was it able to prevent the following with little or no argument from FoS advocates?

Quote:
— In 2012 the NFL had an issue with Tim Tebow kneeling for each game to pray; they also had an issue with Tebow wearing John 3:16 as part of his blackout to avoid glare and made him take it off.
— In 2013 the NFL fined Brandon Marshall for wearing green cleats to raise awareness for people with mental health disorders.
— In 2014 Robert Griffin III (RG3) entered a post-game press conference wearing a shirt that said “Know Jesus Know Peace” but was forced to turn it inside out by an NFL uniform inspector before speaking at the podium.
— In 2015 DeAngelo Williams was fined for wearing “Find the Cure” (under) eye black for breast cancer awareness.
— In 2015 William Gay was fined for wearing purple cleats to raise awareness for domestic violence.
— In 2016 the NFL prevented the Dallas Cowboys from wearing a decal on their helmet in honor of five Dallas Police officers killed in the line of duty during a BLM protest where they put themselves in harms way to protect the protesters.
— In 2016 the NFL threatened to fine players who wanted to wear cleats to commemorate the 15th anniversary of 9/11, when this country lost more people than when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.
http://www.bladenjournal.com/opinion...lover-kneeling (http://www.bladenjournal.com/opinion/14746/why-the-nflis-hypocriticalover-kneeling) __________________

http://www.bladenjournal.com/opinion/14746/why-the-nflis-hypocriticalover-kneeling

I remember a little of this. DeAngelo Williams wore In 2015 " find the cure " in honor of his mom who passed away from breast cancer. DeAngelo Williams was fined for it as you mentioned earlier. Sadly, DeAngelo Williams team mates couldn't find the time to attend her funeral even though it was the off season. The front office didn't acknowledge her passing either.

The NFL is now supporting Cancer awareness. What's sad is Tebow was sanctioned and yet there is an acknowledgment of God on U.S money and in the courts when taking the oath during testimony but yet what Tebow did was somehow inappropriate. :doh:

[Mr Quatro]

What's sad is Tebow was sanctioned and yet there is an acknowledgment of God on U.S money and in the courts when taking the oath during testimony but yet what Tebow did was somehow inappropriate. :doh:

because the world we live in did not approve :oops:

[Obltn Strand]

I vote owners ban the playing of the national anthem at sporting events.Except international games where anthems belong.

[vienna]

The NFL is now supporting Cancer awareness. What's sad is Tebow was sanctioned and yet there is an acknowledgment of God on U.S money and in the courts when taking the oath during testimony but yet what Tebow did was somehow inappropriate. :doh:

I don't know about the rest of the country, but the times I have been called for jury duty, we weren't required to say "So help me God" when we were sworn in as potential jurors; I also observed the phrase was excluded in other oath-taking situations here; I was prepared to give notice I will not swear "to God" under any circumstances, but I didn't have to...


“The Beast” is the Cadillac limousine the agency uses to transport the president from place to place. It operates out of the Secret Service’s classified motor pool. The vehicle is heavily armed against ballistic, IED and chemical weapons attacks, and is fitted with advanced communications and emergency medical equipment.

Yeah, but what kind of gas mileage does it get and can you link up to Twitter via wi-fi? ...





<O>

[Commander Wallace]

I don't know about the rest of the country, but the times I have been called for jury duty, we weren't required to say "So help me God" when we were sworn in as potential jurors; I also observed the phrase was excluded in other oath-taking situations here; I was prepared to give notice I will not swear "to God" under any circumstances, but I didn't have to...

<O>


That was as a juror Vienna. Since You were not required to testify, you were not required to take an oath either. Witnesses, expert or otherwise before they can testify are sworn in. There are however work around(s) though. Even Donald Trump had to take a pledge as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v7GIWtX8us


Judges too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze5iqbty4bg

[razark]

Even Donald Trump had to take a pledge as well.

But he didn't have to say that part, either:
Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:—"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

[Commander Wallace]

But he didn't have to say that part, either:


That's true. That's why I said in my earlier post, # 84 that there are " work around ( s ) " They exist to avoid offending anyone who may be sensitive to anything like that.

[razark]

That's not a "workaround", it's just "not adding an extra bit".

[Commander Wallace]

That's not a "workaround", it's just "not adding an extra bit".


That's a matter of semantics. One person's work around is another person's not adding something. A rose by any other name......

[vienna]

That was as a juror Vienna. Since You were not required to testify, you were not required to take an oath either. Witnesses, expert or otherwise before they can testify are sworn in. There are however work around(s) though. Even Donald Trump had to take a pledge as well.

...




Actually, here in our court jurisdiction, potential jurors are required to swear an oath prior to the voir dire phase affirming they will not give false statements in an attempt to either avoid jury duty or attempt to get on a jury as a biased participant; a second oath is required once the selected jurors are officially empaneled for trial; there are legal repercussions if the oath is violated...





<O>

[Commander Wallace]

Actually, here in our court jurisdiction, potential jurors are required to swear an oath prior to the voir dire phase affirming they will not give false statements in an attempt to either avoid jury duty or attempt to get on a jury as a biased participant; a second oath is required once the selected jurors are officially empaneled for trial; there are legal repercussions if the oath is violated...


<O>


That can vary from one jurisdiction to another as they follow local / state judicial procedure rules. The voire dire phase is little more than a procedure and series of questions by which one attorney can raise Peremptory challenges, dismissing potential jurors on what they feel may be an unfair bias. I'm sure this is what you meant and you are right. :)

Edit: Voire dire can also be a series of questions to determine one's expertise on a given subject if they intend to testify as an expert witness. I was limiting things to potential jurors above.

[Platapus]

I vote owners ban the playing of the national anthem at sporting events.

I would support that. If we are going to protest political statements at NFL games, then protest all political statements.

Or do we just allow political statements that we like?