View Full Version : Las Vegas: 59 dead in Mandalay Bay shooting
More than twenty people have been killed and at least 100 injured in a mass shooting at a Las Vegas concert.
A gunman opened fire from the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Hotel toward an open-air music festival being held close by.
Police said a suspect identified as a local resident, who was not named, had been shot and killed by officers.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41466116
A lone wolf.:nope:
Just watching it on SKY News now.
Terrible. :nope:
Skybird
10-02-17, 05:44 AM
Hefty. 50 dead, 200 wounded. What kind of freak was that?
Sheriff in Vegas has identified the shooter: 64 year old white man, whith no previous criminal record or police contact, living in a retirement community:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/02/us/las-vegas-shooter/index.html
<O>
Catfish
10-02-17, 07:07 AM
Why ? :o
Why ? :oEver listened to country music??
Firearms stocks are on the rise.
Mr Quatro
10-02-17, 08:50 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41466116
A lone wolf.:nope:
Like in the Devil is just one angel too :yep:
Now it's up to fifty (50) dead
At least 50 people were dead and over 400 people were sent to nearby hospitals.
Skybird
10-02-17, 09:05 AM
Hefty. 50 dead, 200 wounded. What kind of freak was that?
Now over 400 wounded.
Red October1984
10-02-17, 09:21 AM
Having watched video of the attack, this is absolutely awful. Definitely without a doubt an automatic weapon. I'm interested in seeing how the media will react to it. 64 year old white male using a weapon that is already illegal without lots and lots of paperwork and licensing. No clear motive it looks like.
Unfortunately it was an easy target for the gunman. The CNN article put it "shooting fish in a barrel" :(
Rockstar
10-02-17, 09:58 AM
Keeping my guess close but it starts with an I and ends with d-e-o-l-o-g-I-c-a-l-e-x-t-r-e-m-i-s-t-f-r-e-a-k.
Skybird
10-02-17, 10:37 AM
Plenty of lose bolts or plenty of hate. To keep the trigger pulled back and keep on firing while they drop left and right by the hundreds, and keep doing so for 20 minutes - that needs plenty of energy to maintain, that is not just one lose moment in time when your brain cuts short over a furious sentiment and for some seconds your mind says goodbye and when you are back to your sense you see that you have killed two or three guys in the past seconds.
Pushing such an effort for as long like this, needs energy coming from something really deep rooting. Maybe the abyss he stared into, started to stare back. Maybe one should better not want to touch upon a dark soul like this one. Sometimes profilers say they often make the experience with really bad suibjects that some of their evil somewhat echoes on and on in their own minds, and it sticks to them. I briefly knew one such guy once, he was with the BKA and helped hunting down sexual perverts and rapists. He quit early, both policework and psychology. He became alternative farmer and called that life his necessary therapy - and self-quarantine. He really had lost his balance.
Mr Quatro
10-02-17, 10:43 AM
How do you sneak 10 guns and all of that ammunition into a hotel? They said you can just carry it in :o
In fact he had more than ten guns, but yet the firing was only for 4 and 1/2 minutes ... make no mistake this was premeditated.
You know the anti-gun people are going to howl over this one. :yep:
Skybird
10-02-17, 10:46 AM
4.5 minutes? Over here it was reported the firing went on for 20 minutes.
Mr Quatro
10-02-17, 11:00 AM
4.5 minutes? Over here it was reported the firing went on for 20 minutes.
ABC and GMA said 4 and 1/2 minutes, but witnesses say 10 minutes.
The shooting started while performer Jason Aldean was onstage. Witnesses described a chaotic scene of back-to-back bullets raining down from above, lasting for up to 10 minutes.
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/las-vegas-shooting/las-vegas-police-investigating-shooting-mandalay-bay-n806461
Fellow performer Jake Owen said he was standing about 50 feet away from Aldean when the shots started.
"It got faster and faster, almost like it was an automatic rifle," Owen said. "At that point, everyone on stage started running everywhere."
Owen dashed by victims covered in blood and eventually found shelter in his bus. The gunfire still hadn't stopped by the time he got there, he said.
"It wasn't something that was quick. It was chaos for a pure seven to 10 minutes," he said.
What I don't understand is why it took 3 hours to find out that the shooter was dead.
Jimbuna
10-02-17, 11:53 AM
Hefty. 50 dead, 200 wounded. What kind of freak was that?
A freak with a lot of firearms and a lot of ammunition.
Onkel Neal
10-02-17, 11:57 AM
Automatic weapon, 32nd floor, shooting across a street at a large concert crowd within a fenced area... There was some serious planning involved here.
Julhelm
10-02-17, 12:44 PM
Anyone know what weapon he used?
Such a sad and tragic event, my heart goes out to all who suffered from this ignorant act.
Jimbuna
10-02-17, 12:53 PM
Too early to say but the authorities are suggesting at least one of the weapons may have been modified to allow fully automatic bursts of fire.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/us/las-vegas-mass-shooting-weapons.html?mcubz=1
They say he had 10 different rifles in his room when they found him. I want to know how you get that many weapons into a hotel, without anyone noticing!?!
It's hard to believe that someone can do such a terrible thing. It's also hard to get a grip about.
I have also noticed there are people who are beginning to create conspiracy about this event.
1. Someone have killed this 64 years old and use him as an scapegoat,
2. He had converted to Islam and acted under order from ISIS.
That is the problem when some people have to much fantasy/imagination and can't see the different between reality and fantasy.
It is so terrible. I hope they will find out why this person did it.
Markus
mako88sb
10-02-17, 02:13 PM
They say he had 10 different rifles in his room when they found him. I want to know how you get that many weapons into a hotel, without anyone noticing!?!
He planned it well to get the maximum carnage possible so I don't think it would have been too hard for him to find a way to get the weapons to his room. I don't know how long he was actually there. A few days? It would just take a few trips and I imagine he selected weapons that would be fairly easy to conceal.
Platapus
10-02-17, 02:29 PM
They say he had 10 different rifles in his room when they found him. I want to know how you get that many weapons into a hotel, without anyone noticing!?!
luggage?
break down the rifles and put it in luggage
Rockstar
10-02-17, 02:59 PM
They say he had 10 different rifles in his room when they found him. I want to know how you get that many weapons into a hotel, without anyone noticing!?!
http://www.caddie.com/common/imges_perso/thumbs/---99729201_p1_400x400.jpg
Mr Quatro
10-02-17, 03:21 PM
He left us a few clues ...
1. He was a pilot and owned a small plane spells he is not that dumb
2. He owned several homes and just sold them moving into the one he has now
3. He was a heavy gambler into video poker
4. He had more guns and ammunition at home
5. His own brother, who lives in California, moved him into his present home a year ago
6. His own brother didn't know he was into guns
7. He checked into that hotel on Thursday
8. The country music festival was Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday night ...
9. That many guns and stock pile of ammunition had to be premeditated
10 He didn't know how to shoot an automatic weapon or he would've shot in small burst ... :yep:
Whoever sold him those guns semi or automatic is probably on the run before the ATF catches up with him :o
Americans Hopeful This Will Be Last Mass Shooting Before They Stop On Their Own For No Reason (http://www.theonion.com/article/americans-hopeful-will-be-last-mass-shooting-they--57093?utm_content=Main&utm_campaign=SF&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SocialMarketing)
^Sad fact is that is not going to happen.
Well, this tragic event will knock Puerto Rico off the front page, we are going to be inundated with this news for a week or more, the talking heads following up with their keen insight as to what happened and why. Repeated showings of half blurred video's from cell phones, will be shown over and over. The media just feeds off of tragedy's like this, each news outlet will say they have news no one else has, and are the first to report on it. Whole thing will be sickening.
Skybird
10-02-17, 04:51 PM
I add three possible theories to the list of maybes:
1. He got blackmailed and something or somebody dear to him was threatened. I give it less than 2% probability.
2. He simply was a dude who was all life long not really recognised as what he really was: some strange dude who wanted to see the world burning for the sake of this, and nothing more. I give this 25%.
3. He got some bad news, maybe a terminal cancer diagnosis or something like this, and wanted to leave the stage with a big bang. 25%.
Platapus
10-02-17, 04:57 PM
Well, this tragic event will knock Puerto Rico off the front page, we are going to be inundated with this news for a week or more, the talking heads following up with their keen insight as to what happened and why. Repeated showings of half blurred video's from cell phones, will be shown over and over. The media just feeds off of tragedy's like this, each news outlet will say they have news no one else has, and are the first to report on it. Whole thing will be sickening.
If it bleeds, it leads
Repeated showings of half blurred video's from cell phones, will be shown over and over. The media just feeds off of tragedy's like this, each news outlet will say they have news no one else has, and are the first to report on it. Whole thing will be sickening.
All ready seeing it on Sky News and to be fair they did not film it, some camera person filming a women clearly in shock does not need having a camera filming her while zooming in and out.
Red October1984
10-02-17, 05:08 PM
You know the anti-gun people are going to howl over this one. :yep:
They're going to howl but the simple fact is that there are laws in place to keep people from having these guns already so I don't know what they're going to try to say beyond "take all of them"
What I don't understand is why it took 3 hours to find out that the shooter was dead.
I don't know about you, but clearing buildings and rooms takes a while. There's 3309 rooms in that hotel based off of Wikipedia. Even if they saw the room he was firing from, he could have moved. I'm sure they cleared nearly every room for 5 floors up and down from where they had the report.
Automatic weapon, 32nd floor, shooting across a street at a large concert crowd within a fenced area... There was some serious planning involved here.
Looking at the math, it's almost an impressive firing position. Definitely not by chance and definitely not a beginner. Roughly 400 yards out and assuming a story is 10 feet....It's (ish, give or take) a 413 yard distance to be firing which is pretty difficult unless you're experienced with weapons. This wasn't an amateur for sure. Automatic weapons at that distance for that event, oh yeah. Planned for sure.
Sure makes me feel good about the country concert I'm going to this weekend. :doh:
Too early to say but the authorities are suggesting at least one of the weapons may have been modified to allow fully automatic bursts of fire.
I'd say from the videos I've seen posted it's almost without a doubt. Whether it was modified or originally configured for full auto...it was firing too fast to even be a bump fire.
Julhelm
10-02-17, 06:09 PM
it was firing too fast to even be a bump fire.
Not really. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5g6Kut3SGU)
According to details given int the latest press briefings by officials, the first LEOs on the scene of the shooter's room were met by gunfire from inside the room; not knowing exactly how many or how well armed the shooter or shooters may have been, they fell back until SWAT could respond. Additionally, reports have said fertilizer compounds of the sort used to make IEDs were found in the car of the suspect, so maybe the LEOs were concerned someone who seemed to be so well prepared and armed might also have taken contingency action by setting up IEDs or other booby traps; such traps are often used by terrorists to inflict harm to first responders; remember, when the LEOs went to the shooters floor, they didn't know if it was actual organized terrorism or a lone whacko; either way, you have to be ready for the worst...
<O>
I think all automatic weapons should be banned, you don't hunt game with machine guns!!!:doh:
The gun laws here in Australia are the opposite, it is very hard to get a license for a single shot .22 for example, ridiculous when you live in a country area where the nearest house is a mile away!! (sorry about the rant:oops:)
Red October1984
10-02-17, 07:58 PM
I think all automatic weapons should be banned, you don't hunt game with machine guns!!!:doh:
The gun laws here in Australia are the opposite, it is very hard to get a license for a single shot .22 for example, ridiculous when you live in a country area where the nearest house is a mile away!! (sorry about the rant:oops:)
For the USA at least, it is extremely difficult for the average person to get an automatic weapon. There's a TON of paperwork and licensing involved and even then it's still illegal to hunt with an automatic weapon. In Missouri, you can't hunt with an automatic gun or a gun with magazine capacity over 10 and Missouri has very loose legislation.
They're not banned necessarily...but it is illegal for the average person to have one.
To buy an automatic weapon you have to have a full ATF/FBI background screening, fully register the firearm federally, fingerprints, recent photo, chief law enforcement approval, etc etc and it takes a long time.
The only problem is that laws only apply to those that follow them. I've never heard of anybody defend owning an NFA/Automatic firearm by saying they hunt with it. It's usually collectors, history buffs, or EXTREME hobbyists in my experience.
There's also the bump fire modifications like the one linked above that's a bit of a loophole but still frowned upon. Thanks Julhelm for the video. I entirely forgot that the stocks exist that allow you to do that. Without modifying the gun, it is possible to fire quick bursts like that....but only in very quick bursts.
--
That surprises me a little bit about Australia. I would figure they'd be a little looser on gun legislation.
It is against the law here if you are caught with a spud gun, water gel guns, or any plastic pellet guns.:doh:
It is against the law here if you are caught with a spud gun, water gel guns, or any plastic pellet guns.:doh:
Yeah, the Aussie government decided after 35 were killed and 23 wounded that enough was enough. Between 1991 and 2001 the number of firearms related deaths in Australia went down by 47%.
Funny old world.
Onkel Neal
10-02-17, 10:41 PM
It's (ish, give or take) a 413 yard distance to be firing which is pretty difficult unless you're experienced with weapons. This wasn't an amateur for sure. Automatic weapons at that distance for that event, oh yeah. Planned for sure.
Well, it's fairly long range but he had 20,000 people packed shoulder to shoulder, he did not need to be accurate. With that much range, it was difficult for the people on the ground to know where the fire was coming from, I bet.
For the USA at least, it is extremely difficult for the average person to get an automatic weapon. There's a TON of paperwork and licensing involved and even then it's still illegal to hunt with an automatic weapon. In Missouri, you can't hunt with an automatic gun or a gun with magazine capacity over 10 and Missouri has very loose legislation.
They're not banned necessarily...but it is illegal for the average person to have one.
To buy an automatic weapon you have to have a full ATF/FBI background screening, fully register the firearm federally, fingerprints, recent photo, chief law enforcement approval, etc etc and it takes a long time.
I'm interested in learning if he has a legal automatic, or illegally modified semi-auto. I don't go for all the homemade full auto gimmicks, that should be illegal.
Wasn't there a girlfriend/partner or some female person of interest? I've heard she was interviewed/in Tokyo. Nothing since this morning.
Only thing I know about her Neal is that she is out of the country, somewhere in SE Asia. Hard for me to believe she didn't know what kind of firepower he had purchased, but can't say she knew how he was planning to use it.
Well, it's fairly long range but he had 20,000 people packed shoulder to shoulder, he did not need to be accurate. With that much range, it was difficult for the people on the ground to know where the fire was coming from, I bet.
...
When the first videos of the shooting were shown on the news reports, I thought, at first, the seeming automatic fire was just the sound of the shots ricocheting off the adjacent buildings, making it seem like full auto; the news station here played the footage a couple of more times, and, on the second play it was very obvious it was full auto; I can only imagine what it must have been like to have been in the crowd hearing the sounds with no idea of what was really happening or where the shots were coming from...
<O>
IMHO, when something like this happens, as little personal information if any should be released about the perpetrator. The media should just refer to them as "some psychopathic loser" and then focus on the victims. I think the attention one receives after committing an act like this, whether or not they survive, plays more than a small part in their motivation.
Depending on how horrific the act, the media may spend weeks, months or even years discussing it. If you have a manifesto, they'll plug it and it will likely be published so the world can hear what you were angry about. You'll probably get your own Wikipedia page and, if you're lucky, you'll even make the cover of Rolling Stone. You just have to do something a little more heinous than the last thing in recent memory and you're a star.
F███ that. Stop making these pieces of filth famous. Wipe their names and memories from history and focus on helping the survivors and the victims' families. It may not stop all of the wack jobs out there, but at least it will give them one less reason to commit murder. After all, who wants to be remembered for five minutes as "some douche who couldn't handle life"?
Personally, I don't care who this s███head was or what his problems were. The authorities can look into that and if they feel there is something that can be done in the future to prevent a similar incident, they can suggest it and we can consider it and vote on it. That should be the only "legacy" these scum leave behind.
[/rant]
How do you sneak 10 guns and all of that ammunition into a hotel? They said you can just carry it in :o
In fact he had more than ten guns, but yet the firing was only for 4 and 1/2 minutes ... make no mistake this was premeditated.
You know the anti-gun people are going to howl over this one. :yep:
Did you ever imagine if it was easier and cheaper to get a legal minigun?
Did you ever imagine such nutjob would be shooting on such a massive crowd with a minigun? :hmmm:
Americans Hopeful This Will Be Last Mass Shooting Before They Stop On Their Own For No Reason (http://www.theonion.com/article/americans-hopeful-will-be-last-mass-shooting-they--57093?utm_content=Main&utm_campaign=SF&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SocialMarketing)
Such a sad and good joke in the same time...:-?
The question has been raised about why the hotel didn't notice the shooter taking large amounts of luggage or other items into the hotel and/or his room. The shooter was what is known in gambling parlance, a 'whale': someone who gambles large amounts and spends large amounts in the casinos and hotels; these people are given very great deference and many rules and behaviors expected of we lesser folk are bent, stretched or waived for the 'whales'. If the shooter did bring in unusually large or heavy baggage, I seriously doubt any of the staff would be inclined to question such a "good" customer...
<O>
Skybird
10-03-17, 05:40 AM
The only problem is that laws only apply to those that follow them.
And that is the core of it, everything else in the guns-'n-rifles controversy revolves around this.
In Germany, the gun laws are hilariously tight, I would even call them and the generla German attitude towards firearms hysterical. You are not allowed to just own a pistol, you have to be a sport club mmeber, you must conduct 18 shooting sessions per year which must be documented in writing and must be confirmed by a club president, and you have to participate in tournaments regularly, to illustrate your "need" of why you must hold a weapons license. You are not allowed to just own a pistol, not even just in yourhousehol, not carried in public. My father, age 73, quit sport shooting early this year and refused to obey to all that paternalism, and gave back his full license then. He was pissed. - Want to see a German popping up like corn? Tell him you want to have a pistol, its as if you press a button: plopp! We have some of the very tightest gun laws ince the world, and still they want to tighten the screws whenever somebody did somehting with a firearm. That over 99,9% of criminal deeds involving firearms, are done with illegal firearms, nobody cares for. It gets completely ignored, completely. They cannot get the criminals, so they relieve their steam at the cost of sport shooters and the right for private property. On the other side a documentary some days ago showed how easy you can get an illegal pistol in Germany if you know how. Police says (police!) in Berlin it takes you two hours, then you can have one, if you want.
And then there is the darknet.
Tightening gun laws on and on, just does not work. You hit the wrong crowd by that, to over 99.9%. You declare them all to be under general suspicion, and that they must prove their innocence - and they must prove it time and time and time again. And even then the public opinion and mainstream media nevertheless are hostile to them. You are expected to not wantintg to have a firearm, you are expected to just tick right, you are expected to be a good boy. And a servile victim. Being victim instead of defending yourself, declares your deüendency and indifference, and that are much wanted qualities nowadays.
The rate of deaths by car accidents trumps amok runs anyway, easily. But no outcry.
Weapon count is now up to 23 found in the hotel room, also two bump fire stocks have been found.
Onkel Neal
10-03-17, 06:49 AM
So, confirmed no full autos? Maybe we need to tighten up on bump stocks and trigger cranks, etc.
So, confirmed no full autos? Maybe we need to tighten up on bump stocks and trigger cranks, etc.I didn't see any specifics being mentioned about the weapons, just that two bump stocks were found.
But yes, something that effectively turns your semi-auto into full-auto probably should not be very easy to get.
Why shares in gun firms rose after Vegas horrorhttp://news.sky.com/story/why-shares-in-gun-firms-rose-after-vegas-horror-11065560
I am speechless.
Jimbuna
10-03-17, 07:51 AM
http://news.sky.com/story/why-shares-in-gun-firms-rose-after-vegas-horror-11065560
I am speechless.
But not postless :haha:
http://news.sky.com/story/why-shares-in-gun-firms-rose-after-vegas-horror-11065560
I am speechless.
The majority of Americans are just as puzzled and appalled as yourself. We often can't believe simple, common sense efforts are so vehemently opposed by gun manufacturers and sellers. They attempt to hide the fact they are mainly interested in their profits by puffery such as positing themselves as defender of Constitutional rights much in the same way politicians attempt to bolster their spurious or vacuous stances by wrapping themselves in the Flag. I've already heard some of the gun advocates saying the shooter could have been stopped if the audience members in LV had been armed themselves, regardless of the fact the venue, like almost all such large gatherings do not permit the carrying of weapons, of any sort, onto the venues' premises. Why? Because of the possibility of some terrorist or domestic nut-job would take advantage of lax controls to carry out a close up and personal attack. That's why virtually every venue such as concerts, sports sites, amusement parks, etc., requires some sort of inspection or electronic screening prior to entry. That's the reality of the world. Sometimes some of the positions the NRA takes for its corporate masters defy any logic, such as the NRA's unwillingness to support a ban on the sale of weapons to individuals who are known to have mental or emotional conditions that render them incapable of being trusted with a weapon. Mentally ill persons cannot legally sign a simple contract, yet the NRA doesn't seem to see a problem with them owning or acquiring guns; mentally ill persons cannot be licensed to operate vehicles, yet the NRA doesn't seem to see a problem with them owning or acquiring guns; mentally ill persons are not legally allowed to hold positions requiring they assume responsibility for public safety, yet the NRA doesn't seem to see a problem with them owning or acquiring guns. There are many other simple, common sense issues with gun ownership that the majority of Americans would like to see addressed, but neither the NRA nor Congress are willing to address. The power of the NRA is way out of context with its size; its influence is solely due to the vast amounts of cash it throws about to get its way. Before the advent of 'Political Action Committees' (PACs) as a means to circumvent political campaign contribution and financing laws and regulations to funnel funds to politicians and parties, the NRA was just about the only way for the big bucks to get to the right politicians and influence legislation without actually tipping the hand as to the real purpose of the expenditure and it was all wrapped up in the protective shell of "we're defending the 2nd Amendment", regardless of the fact the 2nd Amendment isn't going anywhere, isn't really at risk, or really need such questionable defense. The way the NRA and others try to present their case reminds of the sort of tactics used to sell basically unneeded products: there wasn't a need for a "restless leg syndrome" medication until some drug company decide to create a demand by, essentially, creating a heretofore non-existent condition into order to dupe people prone to idle foot tapping into believe they were suffering from a dire medical condition. What is need is to take a step back from the gun lobby rhetoric and, when faced with questions about gun related issues, ask "Who is really, actually, benefiting from the lack of controls: public safety or the bank accounts of the manufacturers and sellers?"...
<O>
Mr Quatro
10-03-17, 09:02 AM
I think the attention one receives after committing an act like this, whether or not they survive, plays more than a small part in their motivation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
F███ that. Stop making these pieces of filth famous. Wipe their names and memories from history and focus on helping the survivors and the victims' families. It may not stop all of the wack jobs out there, but at least it will give them one less reason to commit murder. After all, who wants to be remembered for five minutes as "some douche who couldn't handle life"?
[/rant]
I agree Nathaniel, but that won't change the way the news media does things ... perhaps when they come up with a subscription to the news without advertising revenue being involved ... perhaps then we will see a change in news coverage, but until then all we have is our remote control. :yep:
I like guns in fact I love guns and had planned to travel to Nevada to purchase an Italian semi-auto 9 shot shotgun, but not now ... I'll just stay at home and pay more here.
Look at the laws in Nevada ... are they to blame?
https://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2017_40/2175606/171002-nevada-gun-laws-graphic-se-641p_9a5e04a271ce826735009410622ef9a7.nbcnews-ux-600-480.jpg
On the subject of better ideas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaxAsHhex10
Funny thing about ideas: they require thought, consideration, and ultimately, action to be effective; re: Congress and Trump... don't hold your breath...
<O>
Red October1984
10-03-17, 09:58 AM
And that is the core of it, everything else in the guns-'n-rifles controversy revolves around this.
---
Tightening gun laws on and on, just does not work. You hit the wrong crowd by that, to over 99.9%. You declare them all to be under general suspicion, and that they must prove their innocence - and they must prove it time and time and time again. And even then the public opinion and mainstream media nevertheless are hostile to them. You are expected to not wanting to have a firearm, you are expected to just tick right, you are expected to be a good boy. And a servile victim. Being victim instead of defending yourself, declares your deüendency and indifference, and that are much wanted qualities nowadays.
I'm not at all trying to take a cheap shot at you or attack you, but this surprises me coming from a European. Its the type of stuff you hear here in the USA. However, there are people that continually push for these stricter laws and seem to be blind to the fact that they are not working. The strictest gun laws in the country are in Chicago...
Obviously that is not working for Chiraq. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMy8fIejlFM)
And again, like you say, the crimes there are committed by the illegal guns...guns don't kill, people do. It's such a common sense concept that seems to be constantly overlooked to the point where it appears to be blatantly ignored. I'm a gun enthusiast, yeah...but I should not be made a victim by the government I support. I should not be made a target for criminals who wish to do me or my family harm.
The rate of deaths by car accidents trumps amok runs anyway, easily. But no outcry.
I just want to call attention to this. :up: You're absolutely right.
The majority of Americans are just as puzzled and appalled as yourself. We often can't believe simple, common sense efforts are so vehemently opposed by gun manufacturers and sellers. They attempt to hide the fact they are mainly interested in their profits by puffery such as positing themselves as defender of Constitutional rights much in the same way politicians attempt to bolster their spurious or vacuous stances by wrapping themselves in the Flag. I've already heard some of the gun advocates saying the shooter could have been stopped if the audience members in LV had been armed themselves, regardless of the fact the venue, like almost all such large gatherings do not permit the carrying of weapons, of any sort, onto the venues' premises. Why? Because of the possibility of some terrorist or domestic nut-job would take advantage of lax controls to carry out a close up and personal attack. That's why virtually every venue such as concerts, sports sites, amusement parks, etc., requires some sort of inspection or electronic screening prior to entry. That's the reality of the world. Sometimes some of the positions the NRA takes for its corporate masters defy any logic, such as the NRA's unwillingness to support a ban on the sale of weapons to individuals who are known to have mental or emotional conditions that render them incapable of being trusted with a weapon. Mentally ill persons cannot legally sign a simple contract, yet the NRA doesn't seem to see a problem with them owning or acquiring guns; mentally ill persons cannot be licensed to operate vehicles, yet the NRA doesn't seem to see a problem with them owning or acquiring guns; mentally ill persons are not legally allowed to hold positions requiring they assume responsibility for public safety, yet the NRA doesn't seem to see a problem with them owning or acquiring guns. There are many other simple, common sense issues with gun ownership that the majority of Americans would like to see addressed, but neither the NRA nor Congress are willing to address. The power of the NRA is way out of context with its size; its influence is solely due to the vast amounts of cash it throws about to get its way. Before the advent of 'Political Action Committees' (PACs) as a means to circumvent political campaign contribution and financing laws and regulations to funnel funds to politicians and parties, the NRA was just about the only way for the big bucks to get to the right politicians and influence legislation without actually tipping the hand as to the real purpose of the expenditure and it was all wrapped up in the protective shell of "we're defending the 2nd Amendment", regardless of the fact the 2nd Amendment isn't going anywhere, isn't really at risk, or really need such questionable defense. The way the NRA and others try to present their case reminds of the sort of tactics used to sell basically unneeded products: there wasn't a need for a "restless leg syndrome" medication until some drug company decide to create a demand by, essentially, creating a heretofore non-existent condition into order to dupe people prone to idle foot tapping into believe they were suffering from a dire medical condition. What is need is to take a step back from the gun lobby rhetoric and, when faced with questions about gun related issues, ask "Who is really, actually, benefiting from the lack of controls: public safety or the bank accounts of the manufacturers and sellers?"...
<O>
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
You want to prevent me from buying a gun, change the Constitution.
Skybird
10-03-17, 12:33 PM
I'm not at all trying to take a cheap shot at you or attack you, but this surprises me coming from a European. Its the type of stuff you hear here in the USA. However, there are people that continually push for these stricter laws and seem to be blind to the fact that they are not working. The strictest gun laws in the country are in Chicago...
Obviously that is not working for Chiraq. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMy8fIejlFM)
And again, like you say, the crimes there are committed by the illegal guns...guns don't kill, people do. It's such a common sense concept that seems to be constantly overlooked to the point where it appears to be blatantly ignored. I'm a gun enthusiast, yeah...but I should not be made a victim by the government I support. I should not be made a target for criminals who wish to do me or my family harm.
I just want to call attention to this. :up: You're absolutely right.
To be honest, I have taken several years to completely u-turn over the issue, 10 or 15 years ago I was probably sounding exactly like you would expect a German to sound on this issue. :) Statistics are one reason, fundamental changes of my views on state, and growing anger about the Zeitgeist, are two others. More pragmatical: its better to have a weapon and not needing it, than to need a weapon but having none. I am only against a too loose sales and permissions policy, and a general gun cult. There should be a checkup of biography, and mandatory training, but a general right to own a weapon as well. Automatic weapons, MGs, MPs, ARs however should have no place in public sales, I think, as should so called cop killer ammunition and other special bad stuff. They are not needed neither for hunting, nor self-defence, nor sports precision shooting. Leave the tools of war to were they belong - the warriors protecting their country/society against foreign aggressors.
Wow, we have had the wrong ideas about what happened in Vegas yesterday! This tragedy isn't about those who were gunned down, its not about those who are still in the hospital, facing multiple surgeries, fighting for their lives, this isn't about the fact that those who had been shot for no reason that their blood still lies on the pavement, this isn't about those families whose lives have been shattered by this senseless shooting,this isn't about showing sympathy or compassion for the victims, we've got it all wrong! We should turn our attention to the REAL victims of this tragedy, THE gun owners of America! What the hell were we thinking!?! If that's all these big bad arse gun owners can think about at a time like this, that's beyond pathetic! That's just self centered BS, that's all. If seeing those lifeless bodies of innocent people lying there doesn't move you to sympathy or compassion, if it just moves you to want to protect your guns, then I have a message
Mr Quatro
10-03-17, 01:14 PM
Stop holding it all in eddie and tell us what you really think :o:D
Stop holding it all in eddie and tell us what you really think :o:D
I think the moderators need to send him a message.
Onkel Neal
10-03-17, 01:45 PM
Wow, we have had the wrong ideas about what happened in Vegas yesterday! This tragedy isn't about those who were gunned down, its not about those who are still in the hospital, facing multiple surgeries, fighting for their lives, this isn't about the fact that those who had been shot for no reason that their blood still lies on the pavement, this isn't about those families whose lives have been shattered by this senseless shooting,this isn't about showing sympathy or compassion for the victims, we've got it all wrong! We should turn our attention to the REAL victims of this tragedy, THE gun owners of America! What the hell were we thinking!?! If that's all these big bad arse gun owners can think about at a time like this, that's beyond pathetic! That's just self centered BS, that's all. If seeing those lifeless bodies of innocent people lying there doesn't move you to sympathy or compassion, if it just moves you to want to protect your guns, then I have a message
Keep a cool head, mate. We want to hear what you have to say, just avoid inflammatory and vulgar language
Catfish
10-03-17, 02:28 PM
This link posted by Dowly already has it all.
http://www.theonion.com/article/americans-hopeful-will-be-last-mass-shooting-they--57093?utm_content=Main&utm_campaign=SF&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SocialMarketing
Why do something? The problem is the man, not the weapon.
So give everone on this planet the atomic bomb, then we will all be free and secure :03:
This link posted by Dowly already has it all.
http://www.theonion.com/article/americans-hopeful-will-be-last-mass-shooting-they--57093?utm_content=Main&utm_campaign=SF&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SocialMarketing
Why do something?
I am for giving everone on this planet the atomic bomb, then we will all be free and secure :03:
What's this give stuff? My AR-15 cost me $400 hard earned bucks. Nobody gave me anything! :03:
Keep a cool head, mate. We want to hear what you have to say, just avoid inflammatory and vulgar language
Well I for one don't want to hear what he has to say if he's going to lump every gun owner in the country together like that.
The question has been raised about why the hotel didn't notice the shooter taking large amounts of luggage or other items into the hotel and/or his room.
It's not about what happened or how it could have been possible, that's the police job.
It's about what will be (or can be) the next strike by a nutjob/terrorist and what can be done to prevent it.
My minigun example was an extreme example I know, but I guess before 9/11 no one would believe someone (or some organization) could hijack and pilot a commercial airplane...
"Who is really, actually, benefiting from the lack of controls: public safety or the bank accounts of the manufacturers and sellers?"...
Right. I don't live in the U.S. but it seems like the public doesn't really see it (or don't want to). :hmmm:
Keep a cool head, mate. We want to hear what you have to say, just avoid inflammatory and vulgar language
I agree but,
We should turn our attention to the REAL victims of this tragedy, THE gun owners of America! What the hell were we thinking!?! If that's all these big bad arse gun owners can think about at a time like this, that's beyond pathetic!
I think he's got a really good point here, and I don't want to imagine what a dad, a mom, a husband/boyfriend or wife/girlfriend of the victims would feel after reading this.
Platapus
10-03-17, 04:22 PM
Time for me to post, yet again, one of my favourite quotes
"These are dangerous times. When we are afraid, we want to
be protected, and since we cannot protect ourselves against such
horrors as mass murder by bombers, we are tempted to run to
the government, a government that is always willing to trade the
promise of protection for our freedom, which left, as always,
the question: How much freedom are we willing to relinquish for
such a bald promise?" Gerry Spence
Substitute bombers with snipers/shooters and it applies to this incident
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
You want to prevent me from buying a gun, change the Constitution.
No, it just that it would be nice to see the "well regulated" part of the 2nd enforced as much as the rest of the Amendment; it's obviously there for a reason; the Founders felt the importance and the the need to include the phrase; it's obviously there for a reason they foresaw...
<O>
Buddahaid
10-03-17, 06:32 PM
....this isn't about those families whose lives have been shattered by this senseless shooting,this isn't about showing sympathy or compassion for the victims, we've got it all wrong! We should turn our attention to the REAL victims of this tragedy, THE gun owners of America!.....
I'd bet many of those very same families are gun owners themselves.
Skybird
10-03-17, 06:39 PM
It was the use of wepaoins that enabled man to protect himself from the beasts of the wilderness that hunted him, later it were weapons that enbaled man to avoid starvation by hunting aniumals too dangeorus or too big to hunt them wiothout wepaons; and then again weapons were what allowed the weak to protect themselves agai8nstth e physically supeiror guy. Wepaons are the big equalizer, and thus have probably done more for justice and self-protection to man as any word, any code, and good intention alone. And if ever civilization may fall again - and that can happen easily, since in Freuds word civilised manners are only a very thin layer of paint that all to easily can be scratched off - then it will not educaiton or intention, not gold and not stockpiled food, not a reserve of medical drugs and not a begging smile on a face that can keep the looter and plunder, the murderer and rapist away. What then decides whetehr oyiu becomne prey and will need to suffer what you must - is a weapon and your skill to use it.
THIS guy in Las Vegas, was a nuthead, and obviously he was hot for illing scores of people. He wanted it, by all what he can say. And so he would have found a way to do so. We have saeen in past months how cars and trucks can be turned into wepsaons easily, killing scores. Think of truck bombs. If people would have no right to carry arms, it still would not have prevented anything. This guy wanted to kill. He was hot for it. And he would have found a way. Are terrorists using trucks as weapons an argument to no longer use trucks?
Those wanting to havbe tighter gun laws, would have a case if statistics would show that ordinary citizens, peacefull and law-obeying, time and gaain would draw their weapon and start firefights with each other. But this is not the case. Firearms used for committing suicide, are also no argument, because the decision wheter or not somebody wants to end his life, is his decision, and not that of society or state.
And finally, tighter gun laws would not prevent cirminals commiting crimes by the use of firearms. Becasue - and that is ignored by anti-.wepaon aqctivists all the time - crimes are mostly beign committed by the use of illegal firearms. And these illegal firearms, their avialability and their numbers, you do not tackle by taking the wepaons out of the hands of ordinary people who are no problem anyway. You just render the latter helpless victims.
What really is behind these outcrys whenever an amok run takes place or excessive use of firearms by a nuthead or a criminal killed people, si somethign else, probably, a psychological thing. People want life and world to be good and safe for them. Predictable, and themsleves masters who are in ciontrol of their future, their life'S time. And then somebody coimes and takes this tiem and life away as he wants, and all the mehcinaisms of prjecting more or lerss illusive proteciton (police, and spending on security), get shattered. Chaos breaks into the fairy tale world where the good fairy rules and everybody can get not harmed if he plays by the rules. Trouble in paradise! Chaos...! Suffering, pain, madness. This is more than many can handle, can bear, they are grabbing for just any straw to revive the dream, the illsuion of that total security cna be had: lets ban weapons! No weapons allowed, no harm from weapon - logical, eh? Well, its fairy tale logic where animals can tlak and miracles cna happen if you say the magic word or dream the mystcial dream under the right tree, in the right night.
It may be human. But it is - well, it is, sorry, childish.
And it does not work.
The argument by activists oftehn is that people are carrying weapons becasue they are afraid. Well, what is the argument in that? That they would not be afraid when beign in danger and not being armed. My reply to that would be this: most people want a wepaon, because it is the big equalizer, and enables them to confront the bad guy even if he is stronger than they are. They do not want weapons because they are afraid - they want a weapon so that they must not be afraid.
Fight and conflict between humans, are part of human history, and I claim: part of hman nature. There will enver be a time when peopel will not fight, will not use force, will not wage war. And be honest: to not insignificant part that is because violeance is fascinating, there is not adventure whereyou enjoy the excitement without ther ebeign risk and danger involved, and not few people on this planet find violance to be a valid tool to use in order to get what they want. Thats the world you and me and everybody have to live in. We may not like it, but I do not see the world changing dramatically any time soon. War, killing, violence is a legimtite form of communcation for not a few people int he worlds. You do not like that. I do not like it. But that'S how it is. War is part of our human nature. Fighting, killing is part of life. An ordinary part of life, I would evensay. Tjhat we mourn perosnaol losses and sacrifices, doe snot chnage that, only illustrates that this time we got personally affected. Life goes on, world continues to revolce aroudn the sun, live with it. All nature is fighting aorund us.
Last year, a good movie was to be seen at the cinema, or was it two years ago already: Arrival. In it, the military wants to recruit a linguist explert to communicate with aliens that arrived on planet Earth. The expert sends the Colonel, who had doubts on her, to another expert and tells him he should ask that one for the explanation and translation of the old Sanskrit word for "war". Later, the Colonel rings at her door in the night and hires her and tells her the other expert told him that the translation for the Sanskrit word for war means: "I want more goats".
Some always want more goats. Some because they are greedy and never can get enough, others because they value goats differently than the other.
And to quote another movie, there are other guys who just want to see the world burn, and nothing more than just this.
No, it just that it would be nice to see the "well regulated" part of the 2nd enforced as much as the rest of the Amendment; it's obviously there for a reason; the Founders felt the importance and the the need to include the phrase; it's obviously there for a reason they foresaw...
The "well regulated" part refers to the militia itself. The militia is composed of the people who have the right to bear arms. It does not say that the people or the arms should be regulated. And anyway, the phrase "well regulated" in that sense and at that time meant "well trained". There are plenty of contemporary examples of it being used that way.
Having said that...even though I am an avid supporter of the second amendment and a gun owner (and carrier) myself, I think you'd have to be crazy to oppose laws which would keep guns out of the hands of mentally unstable or malicious people. But that's not as easy to accomplish as one might think. Unfortunately, psychopaths are usually pretty good at hiding their true nature. I also have a sneaking suspicion that the kind of people who commit these atrocities have little regard for any law in the first place.
So what can we do? Personally, I think there is more than one way to address this problem. However, guns are intricately linked to American culture and have been since this country was founded. Even if it was possible to take away all of Americas guns (it isn't), I don't think that would ever happen. More effective measures to prevent these sorts of tragedies? I hope that does happen.
Onkel Neal
10-03-17, 08:00 PM
I think he's got a really good point here, and I don't want to imagine what a dad, a mom, a husband/boyfriend or wife/girlfriend of the victims would feel after reading this.
This thread was politicized early on. Go back and check.
Pfft, what's the point in even discussing it anymore? Nothing will change. If it was going to change it would have done so before now, so it won't, not even when the death count tops a hundred in a future shooting. So save your energy. It just isn't worth it.
Mr Quatro
10-03-17, 08:10 PM
I know this is tin hat stuff, but what if his wife is in on it. She was born in the Philippines and had Australian citizenship. She worked in Vegas for years as a hostess for high rollers. She takes off (when has not been established) for the Philippines and her husband this nut job wires her $100,000.
She then moves on to live in Japan when this all goes down and is now planning to come back to the USA to answer questions. The authorities keep saying "oh she's not a suspect" "we just want to talk to her".
This shooter took years to plan this job by acquiring all of these weapons and ammunition ... she must have known something. He had electronics and camera's set up on a serving cart in the hallway. He even had a camera in the room filming his actions to hurt as many people as he could, which I bet we see film footage of that soon and very soon (remember there is no trial he's dead).
Should I drop the 'M' word on us at this early date? Maybe, maybe not ... but nut jobs have to have some reason to plan all of this so far in advance.
Cancer or something, plus his father was a nut job too that died in 1998.
Lots of unanswered questions, but one thing is for sure he was angry about something and no one has come up with that answer. :hmmm:
fireftr18
10-03-17, 09:00 PM
Thoughts and prayers for those involved. Prayers for our country and world.
I was tired of hearing about it about an hour after the story broke. I'm going to ignore most of it until the facts can come out and I can read them written in a concise manner. There is still a lot to the story that we're not being told.
Pfft, what's the point in even discussing it anymore? Nothing will change. If it was going to change it would have done so before now, so it won't, not even when the death count tops a hundred in a future shooting. So save your energy. It just isn't worth it.
Yeah, I should have think about it in the first place. :nope:
But one sure thing is that if I ever go back in the U.S. again it will strictly be for business purposes only and I'm gonna make it short and sweet.
I'm not at all trying to take a cheap shot at you or attack you, but this surprises me coming from a European. Its the type of stuff you hear here in the USA. However, there are people that continually push for these stricter laws and seem to be blind to the fact that they are not working. The strictest gun laws in the country are in Chicago...
This same argument has been trotted out for the past several years and it is, like The Donald, sad, tired, weak, and false:
Chicago toughest on gun control? A claim shot full of holes --
http://www.politifact.com/illinois/statements/2017/oct/03/sarah-huckabee-sanders/chicago-toughest-gun-control-claim-shot-full-holes/
<O>
Rockstar
10-04-17, 07:47 AM
Pfft, what's the point in even discussing it anymore? Nothing will change. If it was going to change it would have done so before now, so it won't, not even when the death count tops a hundred in a future shooting. So save your energy. It just isn't worth it.
British statistics indicated 454 acid attacks in 2016 and incidents appears to be rising. Lets look at the source of this new fad and try to solve that one.
Red October1984
10-04-17, 09:50 AM
This same argument has been trotted out for the past several years and it is, like The Donald, sad, tired, weak, and false:
So maybe the laws aren't the strictest in Chicago, but I can personally attest that the state of Illinois in general has very strict gun laws compared to many other states.
British statistics indicated 454 acid attacks in 2016 and incidents appears to be rising. Lets look at the source of this new fad and try to solve that one.
Would love to, hopefully the ban of sales of acid to under-18s will make some kind of dent, also a limit of sales of sulfuric acid since not only can it be used in acid attacks but is also an ingredient in some bombs.
Of course, the problem with banning anything to under-18s is the same as alcohol and cigarettes, they'll just get someone over the age of 18 to buy it for them since gangs are comprised of people of multiple ages.
I'd be interested to see if any other European countries are facing this problem, and if not then examine what the differences are between them and us, and why it's become such a problem in the UK and not elsewhere.
Rockstar
10-04-17, 12:36 PM
You can take away anything and everything you like from law abiding citizens, that's easy. Now mom cant send her child to the store because of his age. But it doesn't in anyway shape or form affect the demented extremists or address the cause or cure why people commit such heinous acts against another to begin with. They just move on to the next weapon or start making their own.
Mr Quatro
10-04-17, 01:26 PM
I don't want to remind us of this, but it keeps coming up everytime one of these events happen.
If the US Congress outlaws hammers it's going to cause a lot of people to be out of work :o
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0c5290e3f99d63250017a709d52a22cd.webp
Although hammers and things like hammers exceed the rifles, they are far less than handguns,
which are the most popular weapon of choice, by a wide margin.
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-more-people-are-murdered-with-hammers-than-guns-in-the-US
You can take away anything and everything you like from law abiding citizens, that's easy. Now mom cant send her child to the store because of his age. But it doesn't in anyway shape or form affect the demented extremists or address the cause or cure why people commit such heinous acts against another to begin with. They just move on to the next weapon or start making their own.
So because you can't stop something you shouldn't try? I mean, I guess that's true about the conversation on gun control, there's no point trying to have one. :haha:
Skybird
10-04-17, 01:58 PM
Can't catch the bad guy? Go after an innocent guy. Problem solved, statistics saved, easy living, way to go! :yeah: And even if the illusion lived for just one day, then it nevertheless has lived!
Onkel Neal
10-04-17, 02:16 PM
News is saying the shooter was using legal semi autos with "bump stocks" I didn't know such a thing existed. I cant see how such a device that turns a weapon into a full auto can be legal. I'm guessing they won't be for long.
Catfish
10-04-17, 03:25 PM
As far as i know, you can buy all kinds of weapons, even automatic ones but then with a limited magazine. And what a blacksmith does with any weapon after you bought it is of no concern to the seller. They even give you tips of how to do it, or whom to contact for those special changes.
They also tell you how you get it through the customs, if you buy a gun in a state that has less prohibitive laws, and you want to get it home into your own state. They also give those tips to buyers from abroad.
But that should not be the question, after all they say it's not the tool but the man. The man could have used a truck and killed quite as much.
I just wonder what this shooter had in mind; what was going on in his head :doh:
Platapus
10-04-17, 03:45 PM
News is saying the shooter was using legal semi autos with "bump stocks" I didn't know such a thing existed. I cant see how such a device that turns a weapon into a full auto can be legal. I'm guessing they won't be for long.
It has to do with the wording of the laws.
These bump stocks are clearly not guns of themselves so the manufacturer can freely manufacture them. I am sure there is some small print somewhere informing the customer that this is sold as a novelty product only and that the customer is not supposed to do anything naughty.
The obvious problem with this is that once the customer decides to assemble an illegal weapon it is likely that the customer does not really care that much about breaking some law.
Even if the wording of the laws are changed, the manufactures will find someway to get around the wording.
Brass knuckles are now sold as "paperweights" and various nasty hand held bladed weapons are marketed as "ice scrapers".
What's the solution? I dunno.
I have lost count of what happened that late Sunday evening in Las Vegas. I have lost count in what have happened so far since that terrible terror attack.
Several times per day I see link from what I call non-main stream media and some link from what I call main-stream media.
It's looks like some of these non-main stream wants to make him into a Muslim.
Markus
Schroeder
10-04-17, 03:52 PM
As far as i know, you can buy all kinds of weapons, even automatic ones but then with a limited magazine.
Depends on the state. In some states machine guns can be bought but I believe at a hefty tax.
em2nought
10-04-17, 03:56 PM
I just wonder what this shooter had in mind; what was going on in his head :doh: Probably all the vile false stuff the fake mainstream media has been spewing about Trump and Trump supporters for the last nine months.
Red October1984
10-04-17, 04:27 PM
News is saying the shooter was using legal semi autos with "bump stocks" I didn't know such a thing existed. I cant see how such a device that turns a weapon into a full auto can be legal. I'm guessing they won't be for long.
It's not that it makes the gun full auto. Basically, it allows the gun itself to slide backwards and a spring pushes it back forwards.....and therefore into your finger.
The gun is not fully automatic as there is still one round per trigger pull, but the rate of the trigger pulls goes up substantially.
And what a blacksmith does with any weapon after you bought it is of no concern to the seller. They even give you tips of how to do it, or whom to contact for those special changes.
They also tell you how you get it through the customs, if you buy a gun in a state that has less prohibitive laws, and you want to get it home into your own state. They also give those tips to buyers from abroad.
An honest gunsmith will do none of those things without verifying that the proper licensing and paperwork is cleared.
But that should not be the question, after all they say it's not the tool but the man. The man could have used a truck and killed quite as much.
I just wonder what this shooter had in mind; what was going on in his head :doh:
This is true. I think it's entirely just because the American public is not educated well enough on the topic. It's very easy to say "guns are bad and scary" and play hero trying to outlaw them.
Mr Quatro
10-04-17, 05:02 PM
Video's available to get around the laws ... I'm not kidding. It is available I've even seen stores that will teach you how to take an illegal machine gun apart and put it in your luggage and ship it anywhere ... Legal!!!
One way to avoid registration is to lock the magazine in the rifle until the upper and lower are separated. Cross armory made this process as fast as possible with there Quick Pins. The Quick Pins allow the user to open and close the receivers in a fraction of the time it takes to pull a standard rear takedown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH0fE7SjcAI
Onkel Neal
10-04-17, 06:02 PM
I'm not sure, because I don't delve into these things, but I thought it was highly illegal to convert a semi auto to a full auto. A gunsmith could be in real trouble for doing it. That's my impression. As for gimmicks and novelties like a bump stock, ban them. Lawyers can figure out but the language.
Mr Quatro
10-04-17, 09:41 PM
You can buy the parts to make a machine gun after you put it together it is then illegal unless it was a semi-automatic to begin with and then the bump stock will pull the trigger multi times for you with just one pull.
The gun shops, that I won't provide links to, show you how to assemble and disassemble the gun (rifle or hand gun) and they sell the extra long clips too.
The employees of one shop are ex US Marines ... all legal, legal as long as it is not a functioning gun.
This confirms that we will have this blood thirsty mad man or our news screens someday:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/investigators-delve-deeper-las-vegas-shooting-chilling-details/story?id=50273390
One official said he also had a camera mounted in the room, apparently to record himself.
Plus a red flag of his girlfriend having visited Dubai ... probably nothing to it, but I bet it comes up later.
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/wtf/glamorous-philippinoaustralian-girlfriend-of-las-vegas-shooter-stephen-paddock/news-story/b6800b899f3ed0c97c8d133c0c82d8c1
Australian girlfriend of Stephen Paddock, who killed 60 people
Last year, Ms Danley travelled to Dubai, and appears to have visited family members there.
Rockin Robbins
10-05-17, 02:10 AM
There seems to be a mad stampede to solve the problem of fully automatic weapons, but when's the last time such a weapon was used to kill a lot of people? Just doesn't seem to be a problem.
That's because they're terrible weapons for killing specific people. So are weapons with bump stocks. Both methods are ways to ruin any possible aim in favor of wasting a lot of ammo in any scenario where you want to shoot any specific people. Put them in the vicinity of a crowd where you don't care too much about who in particular gets it and they are in a can't miss situation.
In this case the people hiding and the like, unless they were behind armor, weren't doing themselves a bit of good. The man in the window surely wasn't aiming, but performing the much derided "spray and pray."
It's interesting that Europe, where firearms are much harder to obtain France and Britain have had their share of firearms related killing. Only the civilians were left defenseless. I'm sure that is why our perp here was spraying from a high window. Were he on the ground, someone would have been able to take some shots at him.
When it comes down to it, though, how do you protect people from a sufficiently motivated madman who doesn't care if he loses his own life? He could have tossed muriatic acid bombs, or hand grenades, driven an auto through the crowd (presently very popular in Europe).... If you want to kill people there is always a way to do it.
And does punishing the innocent really make sense? Restricting people's ability to maintain their swimming pools, or restricting the use of automobiles, or prohibiting the military from having weapons that could be used to kill people wouldn't help much. I suppose you could require all high rise buildings to have all windows bullet proof with no way to open them. That would be peachy in a fire situation, wouldn't it? And we always love to torture ourselves by being melodramatic "why has society fallen to the point where people do these terrible things." Society wasn't behind those guns, an aberrant man was behind them. How do you eliminate and prevent crazy people? I love the "well we can't fix it but shouldn't we do something" people. Sure, I think we should make puppies illegal. That would fix it. For that matter a sufficient quantity of cyanide would have killed everyone in a several block area and prevented these shootings. Makes as much sense as anything else proposed by the hand wringers.
Sufficiently motivated people who wish to kill others will always find a way, no matter how totalitarian our governments become to attempt to prevent such things. I think the answer may be to hold those people close to the killers, who were in a position to see the danger, but who chose to do nothing, as responsible as the killer for the carnage they did not prevent.
If people, instead of being afraid to say anything, were more afraid NOT to, that would fix everything, wouldn't it?:doh: And making other people afraid makes people with power very happy.
It's a terrible tragedy, with no solutions that make any sense if we think about their bad effects. So let's just do something without thinking and be done with it.
I just wonder what this shooter had in mind; what was going on in his head :doh:A bullet?
Jimbuna
10-05-17, 08:48 AM
I'm not sure, because I don't delve into these things, but I thought it was highly illegal to convert a semi auto to a full auto. A gunsmith could be in real trouble for doing it. That's my impression. As for gimmicks and novelties like a bump stock, ban them. Lawyers can figure out but the language.
What Is a Bump Stock and How Was It Used in the Las Vegas Shooting?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/04/us/bump-stock-las-vegas-gun.html
Catfish
10-05-17, 09:47 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH0fE7SjcAI
This vid shows all that is wrong, from do-it-yourself weapon improving to suporting illegal use, to the title "The daily shooter" (lmao!!), to a bearded, black-shirted, tattooed, black-sunglasses-wearing "patriot" with a fool's cap. Who else would you trust :doh:
em2nought
10-05-17, 11:26 AM
This shooter took years to plan this job by acquiring all of these weapons and ammunition It doesn't take years to acquire that many weapons. I'm pretty sure the mainstream media is more at fault here than anyone selling weapons. The guy is a lefty nut job. In one awful swoop he struck a blow against Trump supporters at that concert(it wasn't a bunch of people with a vagina on their head after all), the 2nd amendment, Trump, and "white" men in general.
Skybird
10-05-17, 01:00 PM
It was on media that either all ten guns in the hotel room or all twenty-something guns in his home were bought within one year. This is madness indeed. I may be in favor of owning guns, but I am definitely against it being legal to acquire - or modify - full automatics, or to buy quantities that are sufficient to equip an army. I also do not accept mines, SAMs and mortars to be on sale. No private armies, please. No private wars. Leave dealing with that to the regular army indeed.
Rockstar
10-05-17, 03:06 PM
ISIS continues to insist they had a hand in his conversion. Considering the target and what it appears to many to represent. It will be interesting to see where this shooters loyalty was and his motivation for comitting such a henious act.
em2nought
10-05-17, 04:28 PM
It was on media that either all ten guns in the hotel room or all twenty-something guns in his home were bought within one year. This is madness indeed.
I've bought firearms from a dealer that had Yugo SKS's available by the crate last year. I'm fairly certain there are some Americans who own hundreds of firearms, and they've never been a problem to anyone. If I chose to own enough small arms and ammunition to equip my own small army/militia it's perfectly acceptable because of the second amendment. If I was rich I most certainly would have a sizeable arsenal just in case, but not just in case I was going to go wack a doodle. This guy wasn't a gun guy. Gun guys don't do things to give guns a bad name. This guy was a lefty or jihadi.
Skybird
10-05-17, 08:07 PM
A lefty? No righty? The left wackos and "progressives" over here at least, usually are not associated with gun fetishism, but rightwingers are.
em2nought
10-05-17, 08:42 PM
A lefty? No righty? The left wackos and "progressives" over here at least, usually are not associated with gun fetishism, but rightwingers are.
He buys coffee at Starbucks, he's definitely on the left. :D http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-las-vegas-shooting-live-updates-at-his-local-starbucks-vegas-shooter-1507060195-htmlstory.html
Onkel Neal
10-05-17, 08:54 PM
This guy wasn't a gun guy. Gun guys don't do things to give guns a bad name. This guy was a lefty or jihadi.
This guy was seriously crazy. And evil. I haven't heard anything reliable about his political leanings.
It's the October Revolution comrades. :yep: But we must act quickly, already the finest minds in America have discovered our plan:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/alex-jones-says-deep-state-carried-out-vegas-massacre-even-his-staff-wont-go-along-with-it
Rockstar
10-05-17, 10:42 PM
Explosives found may be linked to the same used used in the NYC bombing. Id wager money where this is slowly but surely going.
This guy wasn't a gun guy. Gun guys don't do things to give guns a bad name.He had what 30-40 guns total? I'd say that makes him a "gun guy".
Mr Quatro
10-06-17, 09:19 AM
He had what 30-40 guns total? I'd say that makes him a "gun guy".
He had forty-seven (47) guns in all twenty-four (24) found in his hotel room (the hotel room is also under investigation
as belonging to some corp) with half of the guns (12) being fitted with a bump stock to make them fire continuously
with one pull of the trigger.
Most of the guns were purchased in the last (12) months in Nevada and Utah with back ground checks and no red flags.
He had lots of ammunition left in some odd 17 clips ... He must have got spooked when the hotel security guard
showed up at his door, who he shoots and then turned his little hand gun on himself.
It could've been a lot worse without that security guard locating him ... he's a hero in a way. :yep:
Onkel Neal
10-06-17, 09:35 AM
He had what 30-40 guns total? I'd say that makes him a "gun guy".
I think what he means about not being a gun guy is the shooter wasn't really interested in Firearms as a hobby but as tools to cause destruction. Typically a "gun guy" (also often called a gun nut) is an enthusiast who has a long history of buying guns shooting guns and knowing all about guns. IMO
Fair enough, I'll concede my point.
Why does people have to, depending on their political standpoint, put a criminal in "boxes" ?
Many of my FB-friends keep on saying he was a Muslim(changed religion), thou I haven't found any reliable sources that confirm this.
I know somehow where they stand politically.
Could it be these people can't handle that a white Christian person doing those things and therefore have to change his religion so it fit in their world of beliefs ?
Markus
So what was Tim McVeigh?
In 1993, he drove to Waco, Texas during the Waco siege to show his support. At the scene, he distributed pro-gun rights literature and bumper stickers, such as "When guns are outlawed, I will become an outlaw." He told a student reporter:
The government is afraid of the guns people have because they have to have control of the people at all times. Once you take away the guns, you can do anything to the people. You give them an inch and they take a mile. I believe we are slowly turning into a socialist government. The government is continually growing bigger and more powerful, and the people need to prepare to defend themselves against government control.[29][30]
For the five months following the Waco siege, McVeigh worked at gun shows and handed out free cards printed up with Lon Horiuchi's name and address, "in the hope that somebody in the Patriot movement would assassinate the sharpshooter." (Horiuchi is an FBI sniper and some of his official actions have drawn controversy, specifically his shooting and killing of Randy Weaver's wife while she held an infant child.) He wrote hate mail to the sniper, suggesting that "what goes around, comes around". McVeigh later considered putting aside his plan to target the Murrah Building to target Horiuchi or a member of his family instead.[31]
McVeigh became a fixture on the gun show circuit, traveling to forty states and visiting about eighty gun shows. McVeigh found that the further west he went, the more anti-government sentiment he encountered, at least until he got to what he called "The People's Socialist Republic of California."[32] McVeigh sold survival items and copies of The Turner Diaries. One author said:
In the gun show culture, McVeigh found a home. Though he remained skeptical of some of the most extreme ideas being bandied around, he liked talking to people there about the United Nations, the federal government and possible threats to American liberty
Harper Mercer and his Mum were fond of firearms too:
There were fourteen legally purchased weapons kept in the apartment, and Harper-Mercer's mother wrote online that she always kept full magazines in Glock pistols and an AR-15 rifle inside.[62] The two often spent time together at shooting ranges, but Harper-Mercer was otherwise extremely isolated.
Carlos Mendez:
Mendez, a former member of the military, was a gun enthusiast on cocaine at least a day earlier as well, prompting his wife and two children to leave their home Monday evening when he became unstable.
http://www.ocregister.com/2016/11/10/azusa-election-day-shooter-was-garden-grove-maintenance-worker/
Just because someone is a gun enthusiast or 'nut' it doesn't automatically mean that they're immune from psychological events or other trigger factors which may prompt these people to do what they do.
Platapus
10-06-17, 12:06 PM
Why does people have to, depending on their political standpoint, put a criminal in "boxes" ?
Because some people find comfort in characterizing events, especially emotionally traumatic events into "boxes" they either understand or have a strong opinion about
Onkel Neal
10-06-17, 01:31 PM
Just because someone is a gun enthusiast or 'nut' it doesn't automatically mean that they're immune from psychological events or other trigger factors which may prompt these people to do what they do.
Of course not.
https://i.imgur.com/HAVyyCv.png
https://i.imgur.com/QEyp8PA.jpg
Of course not.
I think the trickiest part is locating the mental problem before the event, because we don't have the kind of mental scanning capacity that you see in science fiction, therefore anyone around you could be a mass-murderer in waiting. Of course, you get a number in the early years of a persons life because of the mental difficulties that are the teenage years and early twenties, which is, I think, why you find that a lot of the radical Islamic terrorists are in that age group, because they are easy to manipulate and already feel like outcasts, and if you add the whole 'feel' that society has with Islam on top of that then you have a dangerous combination.
But this guy, it is an odd one, and the choice of target too...it's not impossible that there's a political motive and he was left of center, I'll admit that, but equally there's a number of other possibilities. Unlike the lower age group it's not particularly likely that he was a member of online groups or was on facebook, otherwise we'd have heard something about it by now because the media are fine tooth combing through his entire life story right now.
The horrible fact is, unless he left some kind of final proclamation somewhere, we may never know why he did it. :hmmm:
Mr Quatro
10-06-17, 05:27 PM
... but equally there's a number of other possibilities. Unlike the lower age group it's not particularly likely that he was a member of online groups or was on facebook, otherwise we'd have heard something about it by now because the media are fine tooth combing through his entire life story right now.
The horrible fact is, unless he left some kind of final proclamation somewhere, we may never know why he did it. :hmmm:
The very fact that we don't know the shooters motive yet, proves that he was very good at hiding it.
http://www.ktnv.com/news/las-vegas-shooting/shooting-may-be-like-father-like-son-scenario
The emerging profile of shooter Stephen Paddock paints the picture of a meticulous planner who was disturbed and dangerous.
Similar words were once used to describe Paddock's father, who was also a notorious criminal.
Sources tell Contact 13 this may well be a case of "Like father, like son."
This is not a reply to u Mr. Quatro. i don't know how to post a single reply. So here is a wealthy man who doesn't like country folks. Or their music. it looks like a dead end on any thing else. So at 64 he closed the book of his life. Societies loving tolerance has spawned these humans.Why should it even make the news.Damn 60 out of 22,000 i would say he's a bad shot. I believe it was Orchestrated by those who can benefit from the event.Now in Americo who would that be ? Could be the ruling families of this country. We don't have a King or
Queen. We have Republicans and Democrats Their families have to share the wealth and the power in this country.The rest of us are the ant's that work and provide that power.And the best way to keep power is to keep the ants
. Killing one another and take away in the name of keeping u ant's safe everything that u have that can take us out of power.Thoe's who control the cloud are smarter than the ant.
\
****, here come the grammar guy's . That is why i don't.post
A lot of us are the ant's , And we don't have the time to spell check . Or pre write down what we want to say. So you get just what is on our minds at the time we respond.So there ya go.
Thoe's with the high intellect, live on their own plane of existence. ELYSIUM.
Please , Continue who the hell is this this Gorpet . any way? Well he was a tank driver in Harry Turtledove's World at War Series. Some where back in 1999 .It did not turn out to good for Gorpet but i'm still here. And if i would have known capitols was shouting.I wouldn't have used them. so there ya go just another piece of info you didn't know. End transmission. Have a good weekend guy's
Skybird
10-07-17, 05:51 AM
This guy - the murderer in LV, not this newbie here - more and more gives me the impression of having been a classical psychopath, maybe by inheritance, if one could say that.
Onkel Neal
10-08-17, 08:10 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=209&v=4RRCbVBCRBE
Armistead
10-11-17, 02:40 AM
So many theories, but obvious a nut. I do agree he fired off some shots or the possibility of it before Jason got into the second song and he went into the bump auto mode...sounds like single shots and the crowd does seem to be leaving in a panic right before Jason goes into the second song... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfNbcStlWEU
So many theories, but obvious a nut. I do agree he fired off some shots or the possibility of it before Jason got into the second song and he went into the bump auto mode...sounds like single shots and the crowd does seem to be leaving in a panic right before Jason goes into the second song...
...
The video is interesting, but the analysis seems flawed; the crowd is seen starting to move away from the stage area several seconds before the alleged muzzle flashes, and since light travels faster than sound, it would be reasonable to presume the flashes would be seen before the gun sounds arrived; also, the weapons used, from the published accounts, appear to have had flash suppressors. The absence of any further "flashes" from the indicated area in the video is also telling...
The local radio news station here in LA aired an eyewitness interview the night of the shooting with another musician who was at the scene in the VIP area and he was asked about and commented on the reports of muzzle flashes from the area indicated; according to him, he had noted a sort of 'strobe' light of some kind visible from the location on nights previous to the shooting and posited the 'strobe' may have been mistaken by some as muzzle flashes; he also said he and others were not able to see any other flashes that would have indicate active shooting...
All this would seem to indicate the video, while interesting, is not definitive...
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Mr Quatro
10-11-17, 07:34 AM
When all of this went down I was wondering what took so long for the response team of swat to arrive on the scene. Then the Sheriff came up with a time line that indicated they knew about the shooter from a security guard checking a door on his floor that the shooter shot.
They said the shooter fired 200 rounds at the door hitting the security guard in the leg and that he then turned a small hand gun on himself and thereby the security guard was a hero, but now not only did the security guard not stop the shooter ... the security guard surprised the shooter before he had even fired one shot. The shooter was still in the process of breaking the window with a special tool to be able to fire out of the window.
Now the time line is all messed up and I have to wonder is it really a mistake or is it a cover up to hide the fact that the hotel security and the LV police and the LV sheriff and the quickly put together swat team should have have acted sooner? They knew which floor it was on due to the unarmed security guard calling in that he had been shot.
What took so long (10 minutes of shooting) and then an hour and a half later they break in, plus we still don't know why and may never know why the shooter stopped shooting with 1,700 rounds of ammunition still left on the floor in clips.
On top of all of this news the FBI now says that they knew the time line the NV sheriff gave was flawed. Right back to waiting three days (in this case a week) for the truth. :oops:
I think the discovery of the wireless camera on the room service cart gave them pause, as well as a possible degree of uncertainty of how many shooters there may have actually been in the room, the possibility of explosive or other booby traps, and the possible concern for and need to evacuate any other innocent occupants who may have been at risk; all of this may have played into any possible delays; going in blind is not an ideal situation...
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