View Full Version : Guess the country: Spain and the struggle of Catalonia for freedom
A country that funds a foundation dedicated to a dictator. Closed Webs. Freedom of assembly annulled. Freedom of expression prosecuted. Peaceful people treated as criminals. And, of course, vote forbidden.
Aktungbby
09-29-17, 01:45 AM
Myanmar
Eichhörnchen
09-29-17, 01:57 AM
I believe that those buggers think the world's attention has been diverted by Korea...
ExFishermanBob
09-29-17, 03:52 AM
Spain
Catfish
09-29-17, 04:45 AM
A country that funds a foundation dedicated to a dictator. Closed Webs. Freedom of assembly annulled. Freedom of expression prosecuted. Peaceful people treated as criminals. And, of course, vote forbidden.
Applies to a lot of countries on this universe's sandkorn.
My take is Turkey with Erdoghan.
Romania and Poland may be on the way to this.
Or did Trump just twitter this about Sweden? :hmmm:
One of you has the correct answer
More information in mainstream media this weekend
In recent weeks they are banning so many things that we do not have time to disobey them all
Jimbuna
09-29-17, 05:53 AM
Myanmar
I believe that those buggers think the world's attention has been diverted by Korea...
Certainly not Myanmar.
Myanmar tells UN: 'There is no ethnic cleansing and no genocide' of Rohingya
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/29/myanmar-un-ethnic-cleansing-genocide-rohingya
The Government has ordered the sealing of polling stations
Jimbuna
09-29-17, 06:56 AM
Spain
I reckon you're correct. The Catalonia Police are sealing off polling booths to block the region’s planned independence referendum on Sunday, which Madrid has declared illegal.
http://www.euronews.com/2017/09/27/catalan-regional-police-seal-off-polling-booths-to-block-independence-vote
In case there had been prizes for this contest they would have been requisitioned. So no prizes. Sorry!
Catfish
09-29-17, 07:08 AM
^ well not entirely true, since those orders "only" apply for one province of said country. If it is Spain, that is :hmmm:
*Now if they had done that in Great Britain ..
*Well i know this is not funny regarding Spain
^ well not entirely true, since those orders "only" apply for one province of said country. If it is Spain, that is :hmmm:
*Now if they had done that in Great Britain ..
*Well i know this is not funny regarding Spain
Civil rights have also been violated in other provinces
The government banned citizens' meetings to discuss this issue in several cities
Declaration about this subject of United Nations Human Rights. Office of the High Commisioner.
http://www.ohchr.org/SP/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22176&LangID=E
Jimbuna
09-29-17, 08:47 AM
I wonder what the EU hierarchy will be making of this :hmmm:
I wonder what the EU hierarchy will be making of this :hmmm:
Too busy screwing us to take any notice.
3 hours ago
Catalonia falls on deaf EU ears
https://www.ft.com/content/b66b024e-a4e6-11e7-9e4f-7f5e6a7c98a2
Jimbuna
09-29-17, 09:30 AM
They must be worried the 'disease' as they think of it is beginning to spread.
The government ordered the seal of schools before 6 pm. They are currently being held by citizens until next Sunday. They will sleep inside the polling stations.
Catfish
09-29-17, 12:07 PM
They must be worried the 'disease' as they think of it is beginning to spread.
Ah, Ireland.
They must be worried the 'disease' as they think of it is beginning to spread.
One of the countries affected by the "disease" was Slovenia. Today is a proud member of EU
ExFishermanBob
09-29-17, 04:58 PM
"Most of the states existing in the world – including pretty well all of Africa bar Ethiopia, much of Asia, and the former Soviet Union – achieved independence in my own lifetime. In virtually every case, it was – almost by definition – illegal at the start of the process for the country to break away. All of the most famous liberation campaigners did jail time. Within the European Union, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia did not obtain Independence by a process negotiated from the start with the Soviet Union. The actions which initiated their Independence were illegal."
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/09/unfashionable-causes/
Craig Murray, Historian, Former UK Ambassador, Human Rights Activist
"Most of the states existing in the world – including pretty well all of Africa bar Ethiopia, much of Asia, and the former Soviet Union – achieved independence in my own lifetime. In virtually every case, it was – almost by definition – illegal at the start of the process for the country to break away. All of the most famous liberation campaigners did jail time. Within the European Union, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia did not obtain Independence by a process negotiated from the start with the Soviet Union. The actions which initiated their Independence were illegal."
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/09/unfashionable-causes/
Craig Murray, Historian, Former UK Ambassador, Human Rights Activist
Excellent article
Jimbuna
09-30-17, 06:07 AM
One of the countries affected by the "disease" was Slovenia. Today is a proud member of EU
And rightly so but I bet they're a net receiver.
And rightly so but I bet they're a net receiver.
Actually Catalonia is the first contributor to Spanish economy
Skybird
10-01-17, 06:02 AM
The ethnic population - Spaniards and Catalunyans are different people! - has the referendum that the Spanish "owners" around Rahoj wanted to prevent with all force. Now quite brutal pictures get reported from there, with the police firing rubber bullets and injuring dozens.
The Spaniards have misplayed this problem from all beginning on, brute force was their only reply, with a deeply narcisstically offended patriarch Rahoj leading the claim of Spain that the Catalunyan people must accept to be owned by Spain. And this while many Catalunyans do not even want full independence, but more autononmy only, and being less the milijng cow for Spain. From today on, the Spaniards will have far more opposition in catalunya. And more enemies.
As a libertarian, I of course always accept any regional population'S claim for wanting to govern itself and not being governed by foreign powers. Thats why I side with the Catalunyans, like I would with the Scottish or Irish, if they vote to split from the UK, or with the pro-Russian majoirty on the Krim, if they indeed are a majority. I would even accept if the Bavarians decide they do no longer be part of the Federal Republic. It is an internal affair and decision of these people, no law and no constitution can be coinsidered ethically valid and legally correct that rules that the one people may never split from another people. No man and no people lives for the sake of serving the interest of somebody else, that would be slavery.
However, I tell the catalunyans also this: sovereignty and independence means you need to afford that you can live by your own means. You have no right to demand others to pay your bills and come up for your living and come to your defence if you get threatened. You are not independant, when others pay your bill, right the opposite: you are dependant.
The media in germany in the past weeks reported inconsistent about the economic backgrounds. Sometimes it was said that Catalunya pays more than any other region of Spain into the national budget, while in order to do so its own indebtness has tremendously grown and the population indeed got poorer. Others say the times of Catalunyan wealth were over and they now get more from Spain than they give in return. I cannot judge what is true. I just stick to my rule: no people has claim to make for another people. Nobody owns somebody else. I indeed am convicned that this old famous oath from Atlas Shrugged is a mandatory fundamental precondition for real freedom, whcih always necessarily also means self-responsibility: I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Spain does shabby and shameful down there today. My sympathy is with the Catalunyans. But beyond that, I stay out of this, like we all should. Its a Catalunyan decision. It is not - and never was! - a Spanish or international decision. Freedom cannot be given, for it is the natural state and birthright of man. It can only be withheld by the use of brute force. And that is what Spain is doing today. And this makes Spain the oppressor.
Jimbuna
10-01-17, 06:05 AM
Threads merged.
Skybird
10-01-17, 06:11 AM
Oh. By the title I thought this thread was some forum guessing game, and so I never opened it. LOL
Jimbuna
10-01-17, 06:31 AM
Oh. By the title I thought this thread was some forum guessing game, and so I never opened it. LOL
Fair point actually but bottom line being they are both about the same subject :salute:
Skybird
10-01-17, 06:55 AM
Last-word-fetishist!
Jimbuna
10-01-17, 07:33 AM
Pardon me?
Last-word-fetishist!
And here comes Reece...:03:
Skybird
10-01-17, 10:08 AM
Pardon me?
There...! He did it again...! I can see it with my own eyes! Last-word-fetishism at its finest!
Jimbuna
10-01-17, 10:10 AM
There...! He did it again...! I can see it with my own eyes! Last-word-fetishism at its finest!
Ah, okay.
Skybird
10-01-17, 10:21 AM
Anyhow, more sad pictures and news from Catalunya. The Spanish state behaves like a slaveholder fighting down a rebellion of slaves.
The EU must feel relieved.
Question is how long until it boomerangs.
Listen, regimes in Madrid and Brussels, people are not property, they are not to be owned. A people that says it does not wish to be governed by you anymore, has to be your command. The days of feudalism and colonialism are over. Its the people's decision whether they let you rule or not - not yours.
We see the arrogance of power in action.
Anyhow, more sad pictures and news from Catalunya. The Spanish state behaves like a slaveholder fighting down a rebellion of slaves.
The EU must feel relieved.
Question is how long until it boomerangs.
Listen, regimes in Madrid and Brussels, people are not property, they are not to be owned. A people that says it does not wish to be governed by you anymore, has to be your command. The days of feudalism and colonialism are over. Its the people's decision whether they let you rule or not - not yours.
We see the arrogance of power in action.
Agreed.
Schroeder
10-01-17, 01:17 PM
Some really ugly pictures there today. Certainly not worthy of a western democracy.:down:
Onkel Neal
10-01-17, 01:45 PM
Should we amend the title of this thread to re reflect the topic more accurately?
Skybird
10-01-17, 01:54 PM
German media report over 760 injured from rubber bullets and batons. Almost no policemen amongst them: the violence was distributed very one-sided, it seems. Spanish police units should have bullied and pushed away Catalunyan units. A German living in Barcelona reported that the Guardia Civil already is very much hated and met with contempt in Catalunya. It will not have made itself new friends today.
Catfish
10-01-17, 01:57 PM
What is all that about the EU? The EU has not much to do with it.
Should it openly support Catalunyan independence?
Should it do the same with Scotland, or Ireland?
From a comment "[...] Unlike Scotland, Catalonia was never a kingdom, nor was it brutally conquered and massacred like Scotland was."
Trying to follow what's going on by watching Swedish and Danish news and read news from these two country about this topic.
What I ask myself is..what will this end with ?
Markus
Skybird
10-01-17, 04:26 PM
From a comment "[...] Unlike Scotland, Catalonia was never a kingdom, nor was it brutally conquered and massacred like Scotland was."
Check the historical overview on Wikipedia, that simple as that comment implies it is not. It was a playball between France and Spain, and object in changing alliances, not all of them were agreed to voluntarily.
The region was amongst the richest and most indiustrialised before the outbreak of the financial crisis symptoms 2007 and had one of the lowest unemployment rates in the whole EU. As part of Madrid'S policies to plunder its financial reserves to finance the other Spanish regions, it got drowned and still is drowning in debts, and now has a record high of unemployment which now is one of the highest in the whole EU - with the rest of Spain being much better off - and Catalunya's cost. The debts weigh heavy as well.
That the people there want much more autonomy in order to defend themselves against the plundering by the socialists in Madrid, to me is absolutely understandable. They were the richest of Spain's regions, and now are the most sucked-out and unemployed, the rest of Spain seems to have been restored at their cost. Now they are a negative record holder in debts and unemployment. Not just in Spain, but in the EU.
The busted property and construction boom from several years ago, did its own part to complete the fall.
The EU hardly would accept an independent Catalunya as new EU member, since that decision must be agreed to all by all EU member states - and I cannot imagine that Madrid would ever say Yes. I had the impression anyway that the Catalunyians did not seriously want to separate in all seirousness, but wanted by majority more, greater autonomy. With today's events, that might have changed however, and many who wanted just more autonomy now indeed may want independence.
Rajoy, this damn narcissist, has done everything wrong on this that could be done wrong. Idiot.
Skybird
10-01-17, 08:59 PM
It is claimed that 42.3% of the Catalunyans eligible to vote, have gone voting. Of these, 90% voted Yes for independance. No information was given on how reliable and trustworthy these numbers are in the light of the massive interference by the Spanish police. - The biggest unions have called for a general strike in support of the independence movement. - 90% sounds like much, much more than I would have expected. If real, one can call it the Rajoy-bonus for sure. And news on the police action spread over the day, possible that many people over the day changed their opinion and voted Yes where before they wanted to vote No. - What's next? Military occupation and martial law? - And what is about the 57% who did not voter: are they desinterested and do not care, did they resignate and thought their vote would not mean anything? Those who do not care, can be ignored, for they indeed do not care. But those who may have voted Yes or No and just were afraid or intimidated, may make the differenc ein the mathemtical legality of the outcome. Because in the end the result means this: no real majority of the Catalunyans voted for independence. By ballots and explicit Yes-votes they have only 38% of those eligible to vote behind their idea of secession. Possible, maybe even likely that the missing 13% would be gotten if the 57% of the people who did not vote, would be asked. But fact is: they did not vote. - The result is unlikely to end the standoff between Barcelona and Madrid. Both sides can interpret it on behalf of their cause. And Madrid is set to ignore it anyway. Certain are just two things: the independence movement in Catalunya is very strong (much more so than I would have imagined), and since yesterday it has become even much stronger. seen that way, the battle yesterday had a very clear winner and a very clear looser. - If those numbers are trustworthy and reliable, one must repeat that.
I do not need to say anything: Skybird has said everything for me. Fortunately, I was one of those who could vote in freedom. But not everyone could. The state police and the Civil Guard stole votes and attacked defenseless people inside the polling stations. The Madrid press says people attacked the police. How? Disarmed? With the ballot? For the heirs of the Franco regime a vote is a weapon of mass destruction
Should we amend the title of this thread to re reflect the topic more accurately?
Neal, a country that funds a foundation dedicated to a dictator is Spain, not Catalonia. Should I amend the title to correct this? Thank you
hauangua
10-02-17, 02:25 AM
A state that sends the police in war against their own population ...
It is the farthest thing we can be from the word "Democracy"
Spain, a state that has gone from absolutist monarchies to dictatorships wants to give lessons of democracy. Are there any Russian people reading this? Do you know that this Spanish government decorated members of the Blue Division (División Azul) in 2013? Yes, the troops sent by Franco to help Hitler invade the Soviet Union. And to humiliate us, they did it in Catalunya, a country highlighted in the anti-Franco struggle. Read it here (sorry, only in Spanish) http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20130522/fernandez-diaz-situa-homenaje-division-azul-marco-reconciliacion-historica-2397027 https://elpais.com/ccaa/2013/05/16/catalunya/1368708685_692728.html
Scottish National Party (SNP) justice spokeswoman Joanna Cherry has reported that on Sunday, in addition to police charges, there were sexual assaults by agents. https://mobile.twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/914592035633582081 http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171001/431704301221/marta-torrejillas-dedos-tetas-policia-nacional-referendum-1-o.html?facet=amp
This girl the Spanish police broke her fingers one by one http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171001/431704301221/marta-torrejillas-dedos-tetas-policia-nacional-referendum-1-o.html
They did not respect the elderly http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171001/431695207716/anciana-herida-votacion-referendum.html
The Spanish government is a bloody disgrace and what happen yesterday proves it.
Skybird
10-02-17, 05:58 AM
You cannot give freedom to man. You can only withhold freedom from man, by the use of force. Thats why you should never accept to be given freedom, because that implies that the other has ever had a right to own you, and you owed to bow your knee to him. You pick your freedom yourself, and by that take what was rightfully yours from all beginning on. Nothing speaks against a voluntary union of partners. But if one partner says that it is over, then there is nothing the other can rightfully do about it.
Its really is revealing how suspiciously silent EU leaders are.
Nikita, I take it that you are Catalunyan. In your view, is the region economically strong enough to survive by itself, or do your people count on the EU paying? I read your unem,ployment rate is still three times as high as before 2007 and higher than in Spain, and that your debts are amongst the highest debt burdens in the EU.
Catfish
10-02-17, 07:44 AM
^ Ok you want to give the decision of "freedom" of belonging to a greater state to the people, along with all other decisions.
It has been a long struggle of egomanic monarchs and other donkeyholes to unite their small patches, and improve and increase the territories, but imho it is indeed a bit better than in the stone age.
Giving certain kinds of freedom to all will be the end of nations, but the result will not be a united world, but lots of small kingdom states or other smallish governments of all kind. Also different currencies, trade laws and so on.
You will then soon have the death penalty back, you will have burning of witches in some states, creationist ones, religious barbaries, and you will have guns everywhere (freeeedom!) and you will soon have those small states fighting each other again. No exchange of science, all for themselves. Germany for example will then have the new NSDAP in its former East, and Bavaria fights all others.
Ok this will at least be the end of this bloody bavarian football club.
The US already seems to embrace this bs with Trump, i guess those suns and the milky way will again be only strange lights in the sky, in a hundred years.
You take one small example going wrong and build a conspiracy and world philosophy out of one event? :hmmm:
Skybird
10-02-17, 08:54 AM
Strange, some people attack me when I talk in defence of national states due to culturally grown identity, and the same people attack me when I argue against national states when they corrupt their power against the will of the people they submit. What is the correct line for me to argue, I wonder? For national states or against national states? Bah, I think I stick to my plotted course through all the arguments and see it a bit more differentiated like I used to do since long time.
Read my lips, Catfish: if partners in a union, for example different people of different cultural origins living in one state, agree to do so voluntarily, fine. If one partner no longer wants to live in that union, then so be it: divorce. The emerging of a separate Catalunyan identity goes back to the times of the falling Roman empire and the mass migration of the Visigoths, and since then Catalonia/Catalunya formed several different alliances or was part fo these, with Aragon, Castilia, France, sometimes voluntarily, sometimes not so voluntarily, but forced by blackmail or force. The modern creation of all-united Spain holds quite some inner contradictions, which were payed attention to by giving different regions and recognised (!!) separate cultures varying degrees of relative autonomy, more than federal states have in germany, as I understand it. Still the question is whether Catalunya and Spain ever were meant to indeed form one united national state at all. A question I do not claim I can or should answer for the Catalunyan people - this is what they have to find a shared position on all by themselves .
Yesterday's numbers only show that many, but no substantial majority of all Catalunyan people want independence, you have 90% Yes-votes of only 42% people going voting. That is quite some distance away from the magical 50+ percent mark, the claim of theca talon leader that they have now earned the right for stasteghood is as misled and propagandistic as is Rajoy'S claim that nothing happened and no referendum ever took place. It seems to me both thes emen are a huge poart of the problem, they must get removed from the formula, I think. But again: that is a thing the Catalunyan people must come to term with, an internal affair of theirs it is. It is no Spanish issue! Spain only gets affected by it, but own interest founded on unjustified claim does not give you any ethically justified or legal claim. You just invested your interests in the wrong way then - and that is your fault. Its not a Spanish thing to decide for the Catalonians, nor should the EU, or me or you or anyone else. It takes two to get married - and it takes two to continue marriage. Trweaties imply that they can be cancelled, any paragraph that cancellation is unavialable, necessarily musta nd should be seen as a mockery of sane reaosn, and should be ignored. No third party has to lecture the two actors here. And whether or not the EU likes local independence movements considering that it is busy with wanting to install a new Soviet Union system and kicking identities around like it wants and de facto already does, I really could not care less for what the EU wants. To hell with it.
One thing is clear, however. The Catalunyans have to live with the consequences good and bad from their decision, whatever it might be, and they are not independent at all if they can only exist in separation when others pay their economic bills. In this case, Germany would foot most of that bill again, and I am strictly against that. In this regard, they have no claim to make to other European people. I recommend they make sure and check it twice and three times whether they really can afford independence, or not.Becasue whatever they find out: they find out at their win - or cost.
Rockstar
10-02-17, 10:05 AM
A few people desire power so convince the mob secession is in their best interests because the grass is greener on the other side. Which it never is
Rockstar
10-02-17, 10:35 AM
Oh and according to the title its a 'struggle for freedom'. What exactly is the oppression they are facing and what would change if they got their way?
Skybird
10-02-17, 11:07 AM
Oh and according to the title its a 'struggle for freedom'. What exactly is the oppression they are facing and what would change if they got their way?
Fiscal drain in the national financial structural equalization scheme (or whatever the correct english word is for "Finanzausgleich", I do not find it in the dictionaries). They are thew wealthiest region in Spain and the most industrialised, but after the past ten years found themselves now being quite abused in order to make other regions in Spain growing again. They now have the highest unemployment rate and t he highest debt rate in Spain, and amongst the EU's nations and regions in general. Unemplyoment is three times as high, debts are amongst the EU's worst.
Finally, for many it seems to be a cultural identity thing. They simply are not just simply Iberian Spaniards, you see. Even the Spanish national constitution recognises that and talks of a status of a separate culture not in the meaning of nation (poltical), but identity, history and language. Two or three other regions hold such a status as well. Its no homogenic one-size-fits-all population.
But all that does not really matter and is not needed to decide whether their wish is okay or not. If they really do not want anymore: that they do not want to be governed by Madrid anymore, that is the only thing that counts. In this case, and in any other comparable case. People are not property of states, parties, politicians, governments. Obedience to the latter must be fully voluntarily, it if gets blackmailed and enforced by brute power, then it is tyranny.
I only wonder whether indeed a real majority of them indeed wants to split. I don't think they have a majority for that. They want more autonomy and want to keep more of their labours' fruits for themsleves instead of getting pushed into poverty while the others benefit from their labour and success. I read some media articles about the economical changes there in the past 10 years, the decline of the education because the money in it got sucked out by Madrid, and found that I can understand their anger there. The others rise, while they fall. And this although they are the industrial and business powerhouse of Spain. One fifth of the Spanish GDP, gets produced in Catalunya alone. Now compare that to terriorial size and population size! Catalunya as a state and industry, would rank I think around place 48 in the world. Not bad for a country of that small size.
You here have the motive why Madrid most likely will never let them go without setting up a fight. Maybe even war and a military dictatorship, I would not completely rule that one out.
You cannot give freedom to man. You can only withhold freedom from man, by the use of force. Thats why you should never accept to be given freedom, because that implies that the other has ever had a right to own you, and you owed to bow your knee to him. You pick your freedom yourself, and by that take what was rightfully yours from all beginning on. Nothing speaks against a voluntary union of partners. But if one partner says that it is over, then there is nothing the other can rightfully do about it.
Its really is revealing how suspiciously silent EU leaders are.
Nikita, I take it that you are Catalunyan. In your view, is the region economically strong enough to survive by itself, or do your people count on the EU paying? I read your unem,ployment rate is still three times as high as before 2007 and higher than in Spain, and that your debts are amongst the highest debt burdens in the EU.
The Catalan debt is provoked by the voracity of Spanish revenue. An example: Spain, in fact, owes economic transfers to Catalonia. Because of this, the Catalan government must ask the Spanish government for money to pay its expenses, and Spain grants them with interest. The Catalan people have to pay with interest the own money that Spain owes to Catalonia! Many economists have said that Catalonia would be a net contributor in the EU. The problem would not be Catalonia, but Spain. That's the reason they will not let us leave and react with such ferocity. It's like the pimp who wants to continue living at the expense of his whore. And saying that Spain helps Catalonia is a lie. If you give me 100 dollars and I return you 70, I'm not helping you. I'm robbing you.
Oh and according to the title its a 'struggle for freedom'. What exactly is the oppression they are facing and what would change if they got their way?
In what language were you teached in school? In the language of your parents? Congratulations, you live in a free country.
But this is not the case of many Catalans, who during the dictatorship of Franco were prohibited the teaching of our language. We could not even write our name in Catalan, which was changed into Spanish, nor write a simple headstone in our language to honor our dead.
During the badly called political transition the Catalan government reintroduced teaching in Catalan in schools. This provoked almost from the outset the rejection of Spain, which has always manifested an unhealthy animosity towards our language and continues nowadays.
Many Spaniards (fortunately not all, who are also good people in Spain) call us pejoratively "polacos" (Poles) simply because we speak Catalan. But we know how to laugh at ourselves: we have a humor program on the Catalonian television called "Polňnia" (Poland). This small example can give you an idea of what political thinking has historically been Spain towards Catalonia.
Skybird
10-02-17, 01:30 PM
The Catalan debt is provoked by the voracity of Spanish revenue. An example: Spain, in fact, owes economic transfers to Catalonia. Because of this, the Catalan government must ask the Spanish government for money to pay its expenses, and Spain grants them with interest. The Catalan people have to pay with interest the own money that Spain owes to Catalonia! Many economists have said that Catalonia would be a net contributor in the EU. The problem would not be Catalonia, but Spain. That's the reason they will not let us leave and react with such ferocity. It's like the pimp who wants to continue living at the expense of his whore. And saying that Spain helps Catalonia is a lie. If you give me 100 dollars and I return you 70, I'm not helping you. I'm robbing you.
Yes, thank you, that is pretty much like i believed to have understood the financial mess between Spain and Catalonia. You just have confirmed the way I understood it. If things indeed are likme this, the Catalonian anger to me appears pretty much to be understandable and justified. It may not be of comfort to you guys, but Germany is in a similiar ppositoin ofbei gn abused by the rest of the EU, with these dman Target-2 saldi by which the ECB by now owes us 800 billion Euro that the Bundesbank spent on behalf of other central banks. We will never see that money back. I know how pissed I feel by that, and so can understand that you people must feel pissed by Madrid as well.
These internatiuonal bakj, money and busienss netwporks and inmteractions are a kraken's labyrinth, and it seems to me the whole idea of it is to plunder the others while grinning in their faces. The whole concept of globalization at least does as much bad and evil as it does some good for some. To me there seem to be far more loosers than winners. But the few winners make enormous gains and accumulate enormous wealth in fewer and fewer hands. Thanks to globalization.
Of course, government propaganda tells us exactly the opposite, no matter the names and parties in govenrment.
Skybird
10-02-17, 01:38 PM
In what language were you teached in school? In the language of your parents? Congratulations, you live in a free country.
But this is not the case of many Catalans, who during the dictatorship of Franco were prohibited the teaching of our language. We could not even write our name in Catalan, which was changed into Spanish, nor write a simple headstone in our language to honor our dead.
During the badly called political transition the Catalan government reintroduced teaching in Catalan in schools. This provoked almost from the outset the rejection of Spain, which has always manifested an unhealthy animosity towards our language and continues nowadays.
But I read just yesterday that you have three official languages in Catalonia: Spanish, Catalonian, and Aranese (?), and that Catalonian language is allowed and speak and used publicly at will by the people? Also, that yoiu have quite some far-reaching autonomy rights already, your own police, and self-administration on many - though not all - levels. Also, that it is like this, or comparable to this, in the other autonomous regions of Galicia, Navarra and Basque territory. How is it then, what are these region's actual status?
???
And maybe not reaching as far back as to Franco. If I would always reach back as far as to Hitler, then I would be unable to see that Jews again do live in Germany and that Germany today is not the Third Reich of the past. I mean I expect the present Spain to be a little bit different than that Spain of Franco's reign, or not? Did four and half decades make no difference? I actually have quite a positive image of Spain today. But then, I was never there (not counting a hunting railtrip from France to the street of Gibraltar over 25 years ago to take a ferry to Marocco, it was all an incredible non-stop hurry and I did not really leave the train....). My father's orchestra once was guest at some Barcelona festival in the late 80s, he was plenty much mightily :) impressed by city, people, friendly manners and the order everywhere.
It is a pity that a country like Spain that has had great names in the arts has historically suffered from mediocre and corrupt politicians
But I read just yesterday that you have three official languages in Catalonia: Spanish, Catalonian, and Aranese (?), and that Catalonian language is allowed and speak and used publicly at will by the people? Also, that yoiu have quite some far-reaching autonomy rights already, your own police, and self-administration on many - though not all - levels. Also, that it is like this, or comparable to this, in the other autonomous regions of Galicia, Navarra and Basque territory. How is it then, what are these region's actual status?
???
And maybe not reaching as far back as to Franco. If I would always reach back as far as to Hitler, then I would be unable to see that Jews again do live in Germany and that Germany today is not the Third Reich of the past. I mean I expect the present Spain to be a little bit different than that Spain of Franco's reign, or not? Did four and half decades make no difference? I actually have quite a positive image of Spain today. But then, I was never there (not counting a hunting railtrip from France to the street of Gibraltar over 25 years ago to take a ferry to Marocco, it was all an incredible non-stop hurry and I did not really leave the train....). My father's orchestra once was guest at some Barcelona festival in the late 80s, he was plenty much mightily :) impressed by city, people, friendly manners and the order everywhere.
We do not have to go back to such distant times. Teaching in Catalan was allowed in the 1980s. Yes, the Aranese language is promoted and protected by the Catalan Government. It comes from the Occitan language. Like Catalan, his teaching was also prohibited. Related to our own Police, Catalans are proud of them this days. Spanish Government wanted to act as repressive police, but instead they defended the citizens. Some of them were also assaulted by the Spanish police. Now the Madrid press calls for the removal of the Chief of the Mossos (Catalan police), Major Trapero. At the beginning of the crisis they wanted to replace it by a Falangist (The Falange is the blue shirts party, similar in concept to the SA of Germany in the 1930s, but with the difference that they have reached the 21st century. In their early days, they helped Hitler to invade the USSR forming part of the Blue Division (División Azul). Its political ideology has not changed since then. The autonomous regions have different levels of autonomy. The best are Euskadi (Basque territory) and Navarra. In this territories they collect their own taxes and then pay Spain its share, after covering their own needs. In Catalonia is different: first we pay Madrid and we must wait until they pay us what they owe us, which usually does not happen. All attempts to achieve an agreement such as that of the Basques have been systematically rejected. I'm glad you liked Spain. It is perfect for anyone who is not Catalan. Best regards
Catalonia begins a general strike. Several cut roads.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/world/europe/catalonia-independence-referendum-eu.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
Eichhörnchen
10-03-17, 03:16 AM
How did you get to change the title of this thread? I can never manage to do that...
How did you get to change the title of this thread? I can never manage to do that...
Ha, ha...! Not me. Neal changed the title to reflect better the subject. Later I asked Neal to modify the new title and he supported my petition. This remind me I forgot to thank you, Neal!
For those of you who understand Spanish, the statements of Hristo Stoichkov, former star player of FC Barcelona and Bulgaria Team, in Univision (Mexico), on the vice president of the Spanish Government. http://www.univision.com/deportes/futbol/stoichkov-lucio-la-bandera-de-cataluna-y-critico-al-gobierno-espanol-van-a-separados-de-mundo-video
Jimbuna
10-03-17, 06:35 AM
How did you get to change the title of this thread? I can never manage to do that...
https://i.imgur.com/BuexS1E.gif
Here is my people. We fight this way. Ramblas of Barcelona. Don't worry. No violence, no blood. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLvIX3i8niU
Video you have just seen was yesterday at Liceu. Workers and Choir singing the Va, pensiero of the Nabucco of Verdi. It is the heart of the Hebrew slaves and it became a hymn of Italian patriotism fighting for independence.
And now, a bit of humor. The solution for Catalonia in just 5 days ... On October 1 we voted ... October 2 declares independence ... On day 3 we declare war on Andorra ... On October 4th, we surrender and therefore we have lost the war ... and we are annexed to Andorra ... On October 5th, Catalonia is a fiscal paradise and Andorra has a beach ... From here nothing can go wrong ... sugar, whiskey and tobacco at a good price ...
Barcelona, now. http://www.elnacional.cat/es/en-directo/actualidad-031017_1827_126.html Employers and workers united in the massive follow-up of the general strike against police brutality.
The referendum ended on Sunday, but the occupation forces continue here
Funny video The Spanish Intelligence sends the Guardia Civil to register a town of 176 inhabitants on the day of the referendum to requisition the polls. At 9:05 they had all voted, made the count and collected the polls and at midday arrive these troops https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8QxQsMNgRw
Catalan vote illegal - Spain's King Felipehttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41493014
I have just seen it, Steed. No surprise. No mention to the hundreds of wounded people. Like King Felipe V in 1714.
I'm afraid in the next days the world will discover the real natur of the Spanish Kingdom
Jimbuna
10-03-17, 03:04 PM
This whole mess could well turn uglier yet.
I have just seen it, Steed. No surprise. No mention to the hundreds of wounded people. Like King Felipe V in 1714.
Always the case the media reports only a certain amount and leave out the rest.
This whole mess could well turn uglier yet.
You can bet it for sure. And like in 1714 we are alone.
Always the case the media reports only a certain amount and leave out the rest.
You can compare information of Madrid media and the rest of the world and form your own opinion.
The Catalans have always seen the world in a different way to that of Spain. In the words of the great Spanish poet Antonio Machado: Castile (Spain) despises what she ignores.
Front page of the satirical magazine El Jueves (The Thursday) https://www.elplural.com/sites/default/files/field/image/dlkiroaw0aa4re6.jpg Rajoy, the great seducer Do not go, Catalans! Where are you going to be better than with us? We love you!
Skybird
10-03-17, 04:35 PM
What arrogance. In principle, the king insisted on unconditional subjugation where he had the chance of bringing both sides into talks and negotations.
A good leader leads. A bad leader just issues commands and leaves it to that. Good leadership is much more than just calling commands. Spain has lost even more sympathies today.
No government and state can demand that a people must accept to be its property. Any law or constitution claiming that, is nil and void.
Arrogance of power at work here with the Spanish government and king. And quite a good ammount of Gockelstolz (= cocks-pride).
Jimbuna
10-04-17, 06:49 AM
This whole mess could well turn uglier yet.
Catalonia will declare independence from Spain in a matter of days, the leader of the autonomous region has told the BBC.
In his first interview since a disputed vote on Sunday, Carles Puigdemont said his government would "act at the end of this week or the beginning of next".
Meanwhile, Spain's King Felipe VI said the vote's organisers had put themselves "outside the law".
He said the situation in Spain was "extremely serious", calling for unity.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41493014
There is no doubt Catalonia will go forward and claim independence from Spain
And there will be no doubt the government in Madrid will reject this and refuse Catalonia to be a sovereign state
And of course there will be no doubt that the government in Catalonia will say he-he what do we care(something like that)
What will be the next without doubt is unknown.
Markus
Skybird
10-04-17, 05:32 PM
For whatever it is worth, since it is in German language, an imo quite fair comment on the complexity of the issue and the desastrous failure of the European elites, the EU, the king, and Rajoy, and how this crisis deepens the crisis of the EU as well.
https://www.welt.de/debatte/article169248578/Spaniens-Staatskrise-ist-ein-Armutszeugnis-fuer-die-EU.html
While I voiced sympathy for Catalonians, I do not see how they could have a economically sustainable future if going independent. The eu will not take them. France will prevent it, Spain will prevent it, Belgium will prevent it, they all have their own independence movements that they fear they could encourage if letting Catalonia in. First intenraton corporations have started to prepare their withdrawel from the Catalon region.
There is only one reraosnmable way: the consuttuon form 1878 must be completely renegoatiated and the ficnail and econiomic ties must be redesigned between Catalonia and Madrid, to give more fairness to it all and prevent Madrid to abuse Catalonioa like it seems to have done especially in the past ten years. Independence mujst be afforded, and I cannot see that Catalonia can ecnomically afford independence.
The king better shuts up pronto, and nbever interferes again in thsi arrogant fashion. Rajoy is burnt as well, he must go. ThecCatalonian side seems to base on a fraigle, partly ocntradictor alliance of different parties with very different interts and agendas, they must be forced to become far more transparent as well. This is what the Catalonians have to make sure.
It seems, all sides have plenty of homework to do here. But before anything else, the arrogant, proud cocks that strut around so selfrightously have to be chased out of the arena.
Jimbuna
10-05-17, 08:43 AM
The eu will not take them. France will prevent it, Spain will prevent it, Belgium will prevent it, they all have their own independence movements that they fear they could encourage if letting Catalonia in.
Precisely :yep:
Catfish
10-05-17, 09:53 AM
Great Britain or England for that matter would not accept it either, for reason of Ireland and Scotland..
The EU as an organisation would accept them.
But there is too much nationalistic interest at stake. You can certainly also say that about some catalunyans though..
Skybird
10-05-17, 11:08 AM
The EU as an organisation would accept them.
No it wouldn'T. Rules say that decisions by EU members on accepting new members must be made unanimous. Spain would not agree. Also, it wants to set precedenmces against independence movements, not rewarding them. The EU wants a continental centralised one-government and heavily denies the meaning and importance of regional identitiers, wants just one uniform continental super-culture, regional independence movements and states are an obstacle for that. See how the Sojet Union dealt with regional ethnic minorities and resettled tzhem, and forced people to live together that did not b elong together. Today, there is conflict and war in all ex-sovjet Russian provinces. The eU will harvest the same outcome later this century, if it does not get stopped.
The socialist party in Catalonia, which got 13% of votes in last elections, has acchieved a court rule that wants to ban that the Catalonian parlament meets, debates and votes on independence. They probaly would not have asked the court for help if they would think they get a voting result which they like.
Imagine the FDP or the AFD in Germany going to courts to ban the Bundestag from assembling when there is a vote to be held that these parties fear they could not win. :hmmm:
However, Puidgemont makes one awful mistake, too. He behaves as if a substantial majority of Catalonian people indeed have said they want indepüendence. But he got only around 4 in 10. The others did not vote. Whatever the reasons were.
Catalonians should hold general elections, to get a parliament that is most up to date with representation. And then this parliament should immediately hold a vote on independence. Madrid should shut up on this, so should Puidgemont. This way, people can vote on a parliament and send people to it of which they know they are for or against independence. whatever such parliament then votes for, must be taken as the basis for the forseeable future. - Last elections were held exactly two years ago.
The main problem is that Spain refuses to talk. It is not a recent problem. She lost all of her colonies for the same reason.
These days you can listen most people and Spanish mass media saying Catalonia BELONGS to Spain, not Catalonia IS Spain. They are recognizing themselves that Catalonia is not Spain.
Skybird
10-08-17, 04:50 PM
Rajoy makes one mistake after the other, and really leaves a terribly foul impression of pure imperial arrogance. Unfortunately, he can count on Merkels support in the EU. I do not want other nations or the EU mediating, it is an issue that Catalonians and Spaniards must come to terms with all by themselves, based on realism, rationalty and pragmatism - only this can work. But Rajoy sets one maximum demand aftere the other, and does not listen, that is my impression, too. Gockelstolz. A very imperial attitude. Unconditional subjugation under the ownership of Spain.
I take only three basic natural laws as so fundamental and profound that I separate them from the many ordinary laws and describe their unsurpassable value by calling them "human rights".
1. No man gets born and lives for the sake of another. Nobody owns another man, and nobody can make claim for somebody else just becasue this other person exists, or owns somethign that the first person wants (see point 2 below). Violation of this law almost always means in the end: slavery.
2. Everybody has the right for private property, which is either things he freely and in mutual agreement traded and bartered with another being who also acted freely and voluntarily, or which he found in nature with nobody else having raised claim for it and making it his by the ransforming acto f work and labour by whiuch he turned free nature into something that now is his. Enforced migration into a country against the will of the people, is a violation of human rights. Demanding the other to share with the state and pay the state taxes, is a violation of human rights. Proivate property the statecan claim right sover, de facto already is expropriated and thus no private property anymore, but state property. This also is a villation of basic human rights.
3. Everybody has the right to be left alone by othe rpeople, if that is what he wishes. Nobody can be forced to live together with others if he doe snot wish that. Nobody can be forced to be of use for others. Violating this, is a violation of human rights.
These are the most profound rights I vcan think of, and they are even more profound than just sentimental idelaistic phrase slike "the right of living", "the right of breathing", "the right for ownign a credit card, a bank account", and what else they today list as "human rights". all this is shallow sentiments, which has no realistic basis in it, does not suit the hard test of making life in this world and the lviing together of people possibloe without necessartily cretaing forcre and violence. Nobody is obligated to be altruistic and to put the other before himself.
What people voluntarily give and do, is somethign different, and their own thing. As long as it is indeed voluntartily, is not being blackmailed and pressed for, no harm is beign done. But enforced "solidarity" is no solidarity, but violence and subjugation. Transparency and voluntariness are the key qualities separating the one from the other, separating force from voluntary help or solidarity. The threat of blackmailing Easteuropean states by the EU - is a violation of human rights. State reason demanding people to live in a state in which they do not want to live, is a violation of human rights. Forcing local residents to acceot migrants that they do not want, is a violation of human rights.
There may be worse offenders in the world, with far more bloody consequenses, I read and hear the global news, too - but nevertheless: Spain violates all three basic human rights that I described. It shouid instead prepoare for a split, learn to get aloing without Catalonia and live by it sown means and what it can afford - and under this precondition offer Catalonia new talks and negotaitons and invitation for a union and alliance under terms and codnitions that Catalonains find acceptable. Because I still think that the majority of Catalonians wish not really for a real split from Spain. Just to be seen as Madrid property and milk cow and needing to feed Madrid at their own disadvantage - that they want to stop: and this is what Madrid wants to continue.
He who sows winds, will earn storms.
Nikita, my suggestions somewhere above to have general elections in Catalonia, was almost 24 hours earlier than the news on TV that Rajoya directed the same demand to Catalonians. At leats to my best knowledge. I did not just parrot him.
Today is the day.
At 6 pm (Spanish time) the Catalan Parliament meets. More than 1,000 journalists from around the world will cover the plenary session
The bellicose language of the Spanish Government has been increasing in the last hours
The start of the plenary is delayed one hour
President Puigdemont follows the Slovenian route: declares the Independence of Catalonia and leaves it in suspense
For the unionist parties, the referendum has been a coup
Skybird
10-10-17, 01:38 PM
Two trains avoided frontal high speed collision at last second. For now. You probably are disappointed, Nikita. Don't be. Game goes on, and a declared independence that cannot be maintained by own power and economy, is neither real independence, nor worth anything. Its an illusion. Hope both sides use the time wisely that has been won today.
I would not be surprised if Catalonia gets independence when it comes to domestic and some part economy and have to stay with Spain when it comes to defense and foreign affairs.
Markus
Two trains avoided frontal high speed collision at last second. For now. You probably are disappointed, Nikita. Don't be. Game goes on, and a declared independence that cannot be maintained by own power and economy, is neither real independence, nor worth anything. Its an illusion. Hope both sides use the time wisely that has been won today.
No, I'm not disappointed, Skybird. I think is the best thing Puigdemont could do in the present circumstances. It has been a move to gain time.
I would not be surprised if Catalonia gets independence when it comes to domestic and some part economy and have to stay with Spain when it comes to defense and foreign affairs.
Markus
The problem is Spain does not consider Catalunya a political subject and refuses any kind of negotiation
Skybird
10-10-17, 03:22 PM
I would not be surprised if Catalonia gets independence when it comes to domestic and some part economy and have to stay with Spain when it comes to defense and foreign affairs.
Markus
Thats is called autonomy. You cannot be just partially independent. Either you are independent, or you are not, biut it san all-or-nothing-at-all thing. You mean to alter the existing conditions of autonomy that there already is, and altering them in favour of the Catalan people. Well, nothing to sayx agai nst that, I think this is whgat the majoriy of Catalan people also wanted, before Rajoy played tough on the referendum and started to piss the people in big numbers. How it is now, I do not dare to assess. Possible that now indeed a majority wanst independence. Possible also that the thrats by economic actor like companies and banks to leave catalonia, made people rethinking independence. I do not dare to assess the mood, how could I. Just the arrogance of the powerful in europe, that a constitution that says that some people in end effect are possession of other people and have no right to leave these other people, this arrogance I find nerve-killing, and unacceptable. At the Nurm,eberg trials after WWII, they had soemthign to say about the illegalness of certain orders that were used by some Germans to hide behgind "I just followed orders". Orders can per se be illegal by standard of superior ethics. So can be legal rights of people that no constitution ar state-given law can make invalid, cancel, neutralise. People are not the property of states and politicians or other people. Any constitution or law, claiming the opposite, is invalid from all beginning on. Slavery is never valid and cannot be legalised in a valid fashion by any man-made law. Slavery gives every slave the factual right of trying to escape, to resist, to fight the slaveholder, even to kill him, if that is the only way to regain his freedom. Third party interests like that of the EU dogmatists, are irrelevant here. They are real, but not relevant. You cannot give freedom to people, since they had it from birth on, you can only, by the use of force, supression and violence, withhold freedom from people. So you better learn to be strong enough to defend your freedom, because there are many in thew world who want to takeit away from you. You can be right and have law on your side - but you also need the strength to fight for it, else it serves you nothing that you are right.
Im Recht sein, und Recht kriegen, sind zweierlei.
Thank you Nikita and Skybird for you response.
I'm not that much into Spains politics.
The only thing i know is that Catalonia wants independence from Spain and I also know that in politics there are something called compromise.
I can understand Rajoy is refusing to talk about anything when it comes to Catalonia's wishes for independence.
This made me remember a friend who wrote-How many of you think there will be a second civil war in Spain.
I hope it will not go that far. I hope they will find a solution a compromise which both part can be happy with.
As I understand it Rajoy has the ball and I guess everyone is waiting for his answer.
Markus
I am just astonished at the one-sideness of this thread. There is so much more in all this, that it becomes quite sad to see Nikita and Skybird's reduction and simplification of it to the usual independentist catalan version of the story.
It amazes me specially in you, Skybird, as usually a very well informed person, that you use several arguments that could be applied to Catalonia itself when it comes to his relations with other regions.
I could open my own thread explaining the cultural genocide that the catalan governments have done in the other catalan-speaking regions of Valencia and Baleares, pushing an imperialist unionist agenda (About their fantasy Paises Catalans) and using their control of university and funding to supress the local variety in the language in favour of the catalan standard, all in tight alliance with the left and the indiference of the right, who needed their votes in Madrid. All my ancestors since centuries ago spoke the beautiful valencian dialect, but now it has been almost eliminated in all its variety and richness in favour of the catalan standard that nobody really speaks, just because the big Catalonia has to tight the bonds of their imaginary nation.
3. Everybody has the right to be left alone by othe rpeople, if that is what he wishes. Nobody can be forced to live together with others if he doe snot wish that. Nobody can be forced to be of use for others. Violating this, is a violation of human rights.
Yeah, tell that to those in the nationalist catalan parties. Their not-at-all-secret agenda is to push the "Gleichschaltung" of Valencia and Baleares into their imperialist dream. I really am astonished at your contradictory support of the catalan referendum considering the 3 "human rights" you listed. Did you know that some parts of Catalonia do not want to be independent from Spain? So what about those? Why don't they have the right to decide to stay and instead have to suffer the imposition of the government from Barcelona of a single decission for everyone? That is completely contradictory with what you say, and yet you support it. Amazing. All and each of your thoughts can be conversedly applied to Catalonia, they do the same or worse things on their back door to their catalan speaking neighbours and inside their own territory. I will give you just some examples: They have been whining for decades for example about the "centralization" of the rail and highway lanes, all pointing to Madrid. Really? Pick a map of Catalonia and have a look. ALL highways and rails pass through Barcelona! To go from Martorell to Granollers by train you have to go first to Barcelona and switch there. I know, because I lived 5 years there. Another example: They consider an offence that some catalan art is stored in the Prado museum in Madrid. However they ripped away the painting in all churches in the Pirenees to bring them to the national arts museum in Barcelona. Not just hanging paintings, mind you, they even ripped wall-paintings. And they still as of today deny returning to their legitimate owners in Aragon and Valencia works of art that "appeared" in Catalonia after the civil war. Read about the Sijena monastry and the Codice of Orihuela.
I could go on for ages, but those are just examples. To me, their referendum is absolutely illegitimate as long as they are doing to others the same things that they whine the spanish government is doing them. They can't pretend to have a right they deny to others.
There is one point where I do agree with you all however, Rajoy has been an absolute disaster in all aspects. Uncapable and with the lack of greatness that the situation required.
Skybird
10-10-17, 05:42 PM
Hitman,
I am quite aware that my understanding of the matter probably, most likely is limited, thats why I reduce my own views on it to most profound human rights and lead principles, my general deep mistrust in every poltician, the obervation of behavior of the political protagonists (note that while I attacked Rajoy, I also expressed that I do not trust Puidgemont either), and a general overview on the histoy of the catalonian-Spanish relation, which i searched and read about just recently when they had the referendum, starting with the Romans' sending of Visagoths as a policing force to their Iberian province, the varying alliances of their later descendants with Aragon, France and - was it Castilia? I may mistake it, maybe. And next the subjugation of the Catalonians as result of the War of the Spanish Succession, and finally the Catalonian fight against against Franco, which again had them as the loosers to the Spanish. I fail to see that the modern outcome is the result of always free and voluntary decisions and choices, force and vioelnce and treaosn had much more to do with it, I got the impression. Not only are they not of the same origin as the Spaniards, but they got dealt mixed outcomes by the going of history - and they ended often on the loosing end of the storyline.
My decisive criterion however is that as a libertarian I will allways defend the right of a regional population, a people to stay for itself, if that is what they want. They better be sure they can afford it and can defend themsleves then, but the right to be free they have. everybody has that right, its his birth right. Nobody gets born into being legally owned. I have no room in my ethical system for that idea. No claim can be made by others that this people has to stay in union with them because these others want to continue to profit from it, this never is a valid argument. Like a couple where the one does not love the other anymore and wants to split the marriage, the other can regret it, can try to convince his partner, can be angry - but there cannot be any law that would not be a violation of human rights that allows the one - historically the male - partner - to deny the cancelling of the marriage to his wife if she wants the split. Such laws belong to the garbage of history, thats where theyx shoudl be put. The church may be against it, the state may be against it, tradition may be against it, customs may be agaiunst it - still it remains to be a violation of basic human rights.
Freedom. There is nothing more precious. By oure random chance, just minutes ago I have read this in a German blog:
"Freiheit bedeutet auch, den Grad der Inanspruchnahme der persönlichen Freiheit individuell bestimmen zu können.
Diesen Grad unter dem Schlagwort des „Sozialen“ und der „Gerechtigkeit“ herunterzudimmen auf ein Minimum und dieses Minimum mittels Zwang als das einzig gültige Mass allen anderen aufs Auge zu drücken, ist die Diktatur der Lauen und Laschen."
I am not biased against spaniards, Hitman. I do not know Spain, all I experienced from it is a rushed train travel with me almost never having left the train ( I was heading for Marocco, not Spain itself), and a handful of Spaniards I met at university and in several jobs later on. No problems wiht them, never, I have nothing against Spain and Spaniards, and hold no hostile bias there. Those Spaniards who have stayed in Germany after they came in the 60s, have full and well integrated, are the best example of that migration and integration can work very well indeed - since decades. Again zero problems there. You have never heard me complaining there, haven't you.
But here is politics confronting freedom. And as a libertarian it is clear where I must stand. That has nothing to do with sympathy for or against political actors althoguh I dispise Rajoy (alreadey before), and also miustrust Puidgement. Thats why I said both have to be chased out off ther backyard. Its a superior principle all this is about: freedom. And I cannot see that Spain has real claim to make for the Catalonians, not after this history there was.
Please, dont take this personal. Its not personal at all, at least not for me. I would regret it if you take personal offence from my postings in here - but that would not make me change my mind. Good argument that I found convincing, however could make me change my mind, maybe - it depends.
Edit:
P.S.
I expressed repeatedly my doubt that indeed a substantial numerical majority of Catalonians wanted to split from Spain, I thougt they wanted more autonomy and a correction of financial transfers that leave them too much ad disadvantage at their own cost. I said that repeatedly, and even two posts above or so I said so again. However, I also said that i could imagine that the behavior by Madrid has hardened the front so much that now maybe indeed of Catalonians are so bitter that now there would be a majority. Its possible but I cannto say, I do not read people'S inner moods and tempers. And just hours before Rajoy annoucned his demand that he wants eleciton in Catalonia, I issued the same idea in apost, not knowing of his plan, and said Catalonians should have elections so that the parliament i sup to date with representaives for and against independence, and that then they shoukd immediatedly vote on independence yes or no. I still think this is the best idea. Cionsidering that the first half of it is the same what rajoy wants, do you still accuse me of being blindly biased against Spain? I propose this plan not because I sympathise with Spain, but because imo it makes sense and is the most reasonable possible going from here. Elecitons, vote in parliament, and the n the rersult has to be acceoted.
By both sides.
But Madrid has to move, instead of just demanding, with imperial arrogance, obedience and subjugation. It has no ethical fundament from which it could do that. Mayn Catalonians know of the economic and financial fragility of independence, and the signs for hardshipos in the future have grown in the past days. Madrid must make concessions and act less imeprial and arrogant. Then maybe it will find that its fears for a referendum, indeed are unfounded. But with the fight Rajoy preferred instead of that, this all now is unpredictable. fI the one demands the other to in principle submit himself unconditionally, then this never raises good sentiments in the subjugated. You reap what you sowed. True for Spain. But true for Catalonia as well.
Skybird,
you are just another victim of the misinformation that floats around. Catalan nationalists, especially so the more extremists, are obviously very active in social nets and everywhere they can push their agenda. This is the same as with the palestinians, they generate sympathy all around among everybody not truly informed of what is going on. You obviously (As many other people, me included) have a set of personal convictions strongly based in the individual freedom and that seems to click with the catalan demands, but the truth is way more complex than those demands.
I share your views about freedom as most precious teasure in any human, I am a full liberal myself and could not agree more with that you say. But the biggest part of the freedom in a choice is having the full and impartial information regarding the subject of your decission. Otherwise your choice is not free, but instead strongly conditioned (Which you know better than me because of your proffesional training) -and that is exactly what is going on here. People are being used as pawns against each other by means of a huge amount of intoxication and manipulation, and unfortunately the nationalist side is way more proficient in that. I have seen (And had) enough debates with such people to know that their arguments don't stand the proof of critique, for them it's just pure guts feelings that are incitated from a powerful propaganda apparatus which points at a scapegoat as source of all evils.
Skybird
10-11-17, 05:34 AM
But I do not visit any social media - no TW, no FB, no nothing of that kind; how can I be hit by the propaganda in there then? My input is the mainstream TV which is quote pro-Spain, pro unity, pro-EU, some bits and ieces by Nikita, and some Google searches I did on history, and some economc and ficnncial key numbers, especially financial transfers. One thing is clear: Spain benefits more from Catalonia than Catalonia benefits fro Spain, Catalonia is a net payer for Spain, and the richest one. And by the end of the day this is most liely the key issue why Madrid does nt want to let it go. By the end of the day, its always about the money.
I have repeatedly said now that I do not trust Puidgemont, to me he is just another manouvering politician. That there are dubious political partners in his background, our ordinary state TV was very eager to point out time and again. I also repeatedly expressed that I disagree with his interpretation of the referendum, saying that he has not gotten a real majority. I repeatedly explained now why I think that such a majority maybe does not or did not exist, and why Madrid's arrogant acting may have changed that. I am aware of Soain having subatantial material interests in Catalonia. Its just that in case of a head on fight between the two over freedom for Catalinians, if they indeed want it, I see these interests as not bvalid enough as if they could give claim for Madrid over owning Cataonia. If that claim would be considered as legal only becasue Spain materialistically profiteers from owning Catalonia even aganst the populations will, then this wul be the textbook definition of slavery and occupation. Spains' intersts are real, they exist, they are a fact of the situation. But their mere existence alone do not legalise its claim to hold Catalonia as prisoner if the Catalonians do not voluntarily agree.
The best way would have been to replace the existing autonomy status with a newly negotiated one that drains less wekath fro catalonia. As I read it and see economical and financial numbers, they must feel like Spains milking cow, and this is what has brought them to wiling this conflict. They now. Nikita said they are not just sharing, but getting poorer whil he others are benefitting. This is by all what I have read about the financial and economic relations ties, true.
Here you have the minimum of concessions Madrid has make if it really wants peace and a chance to keep the Catalonians in the "union" . Reject this, and what you will get in the future, is escalating conflict, maybe even civil war - who knows.
In other words: does Spain want a union betwene equals and partners, or does it want submissive, servile vasalls that are supressed by force? The one side here lives too much at the cost of the other side, and this imbalance has to be corrected.
Like I said, things are more complicated than simply looking at economic figures.
First of all, it is a matter of accepting or not that wealthier persons (Not territories, it's persons who have wealth after all) have to contribute more than poorer ones. All our occidental world is based on that principle, so on that base what happens is that there are more wealthy persons and companies in Catalonia than in other areas of Spain, and as a result they pay more taxes. If those persons moved elsewhere, they would pay elsewhere, so it's not that Catalonia is being targeted for being Catalonia as a cultural entity.
Second, the materialistic approach is not the main moving principle behind the will to keep Spain united. In case of separation from Catalonia, most companies would move into the rest of Spain (As already happened these last days) consequently increasing its wealth, and even if that did not happen, the new situation would place Spain as net receiver of UE funds instead as of contributor, as it became in the last years. So the rest of the UE would have to provide some of those funds that Catalonia no longer would, and then again if Catalonia would enter the UE it would pay the same to the rest of Spain, only via the UE. What there would be is a significant loss of political weight, as two smaller states obviously are not of the same importance as a bigger one -and that benefits both Catalonia and the rest of Spain.
Third, the current wealth in Catalonia is not just the simple product of their personal qualities and work ethics (Which are undeniable). Catalonia was heavily privileged during the 19th century and beginning of the 20th, including Franco's period. In 1787 the population in Galicia was 1,3 milions, while in Catalonia there were only 800.000 persons, but a century later it was the opposite. Why? Because governments introduced those special taxes and favoured heavily the catalan cotton industry (In Galicia they laboured with woven linen), as well as a the customs (Zoll) taxes that heavily benefitted Catalonia as natural land exit to europe. It was not any partial spaniard but the very own french writer Stendhal who was himself amazed at the privilegies issued to the catalans, and expressed his wonder about they willing to have them "Just for being born catalans".
As a consequence, Galicia sunk to the bottom and became a poor region and Catalonia started its surge. It was also one of the regions in Spain that most benefitted from its colonies, and coincidentally the first Catalan nationalist parties, predecessors to those claiming for independence today, were created immediately after Spain lost its latest colonies, Cuba, Puerto Rico and Philippines in 1898. That is, after they lost a big part of their dear captive market. During Franco's dictatorship catalan culture and language was heavily repressed, but the industry was again benefitted with many national ones being located there (SEAT one of them) which, again, given the autharchy that was Spain back then, meant getting another captive market. So the catalan wealth has been created over history (Actually in the last 200 years, as it was a rather poor region before) based on extracting wealth from other regions of Spain thanks to captive markets. So I do not think that it would be fair to say that it's just the rest of Spain wanting to milk Catalonia, considering how much Catalonia has milked them over history to obtain their current status.
I'll post more later, have to go now.
Skybird
10-11-17, 09:17 AM
Like I said, things are more complicated than simply looking at economic figures.
First of all, it is a matter of accepting or not that wealthier persons (Not territories, it's persons who have wealth after all) have to contribute more than poorer ones. All our occidental world is based on that principle, so on that base what happens is that there are more wealthy persons and companies in Catalonia than in other areas of Spain, and as a result they pay more taxes. If those persons moved elsewhere, they would pay elsewhere, so it's not that Catalonia is being targeted for being Catalonia as a cultural entity.
That is socialist drivel, sorry. The usual selflegitimation of plunderers to plunder the ominous "rich".
You also forget to mention that Catalonia pays into a nationwide fiscal compensation scheme, comparable to the one we have in Germany between the federal states and that bin German is called "Länderfinanzausgleich". I do not have an English translation for this word and do not know how you call it in spain, but it exists, I read quite a good description of it. More money flows out of Catalonia and into Spain, than money flows back. the discrepancy has become so big that not only must Catalonians share, while remaining "wealthy", but that they turn poor and disadvantaged. Nikita also mentioned that, but I read according descriptions as well. Its Madrid'S attempt to repair the fallout from the financial crisis whose symptoms broke out so harshly in 2007. At the cost of Catalonians, so immense coast that thery fundamentally flalb ack. We have the sam eprobklem in Germany since reunification, since then immense ammounts of money were paid fro West to East, now leading to thre absurd situaiton thta many cities in the East have far better and modenr infrastructure in capoitla cities then the eroding metroples in thwe West, namely in the Ruhr-Area. Needless to say, those in the West whio belkong to the loosing side due to these transfers of Wetsenr wEalth into the East, are pissed. They are expected not only to compensate for differences, but to get themselves abused for ther wellbeing of oithers. And that stinks.
Socialist redistribution schemes always are unfair, arbitary, and criminal. Thery want to bypass and shortcut ther market and its correct mechanisms, fostering the unfit and making ther healthy sick. And they always lead deeper and deeper into the delayed collapse of all. Always. As somebody once said: you do not help the poor by making the wealthier poor as well. You only bribe your audience that way, to get elected.
Its utmost dispiseful.
Second, the materialistic approach is not the main moving principle behind the will to keep Spain united. In case of separation from Catalonia, most companies would move into the rest of Spain (As already happened these last days) consequently increasing its wealth, and even if that did not happen, the new situation would place Spain as net receiver of UE funds instead as of contributor, as it became in the last years. So the rest of the UE would have to provide some of those funds that Catalonia no longer would, and then again if Catalonia would enter the UE it would pay the same to the rest of Spain, only via the UE. What there would be is a significant loss of political weight, as two smaller states obviously are not of the same importance as a bigger one -and that benefits both Catalonia and the rest of Spain.
I told Nikita myself that Catalonians should make certain thgey actualyl can afford, economically, to go independent, and that they are not independent if they need others, foreigners, to pay their bills. But this question is to be decided not by Eurpeans, not by Grmany, not by you Sopaniards, and not by anyone slese ecept thre CVataloniosn thremselves. Its their piece of land, its their will, and their decision. Theirs, and not Spains. They also have to accept the consequences, may they be good or bad. Freedom teaches self-responsibility. No self-responsibility - no freedom. Freedom is no all-inclusive holiday camp. Its fight for survival. Hard work.
Third, the current wealth in Catalonia is not just the simple product of their personal qualities and work ethics (Which are undeniable). Catalonia was heavily privileged during the 19th century and beginning of the 20th, including Franco's period. In 1787 the population in Galicia was 1,3 milions, while in Catalonia there were only 800.000 persons, but a century later it was the opposite. Why? Because governments introduced those special taxes and favoured heavily the catalan cotton industry (In Galicia they laboured with woven linen), as well as a the customs (Zoll) taxes that heavily benefitted Catalonia as natural land exit to europe. It was not any partial spaniard but the very own french writer Stendhal who was himself amazed at the privilegies issued to the catalans, and expressed his wonder about they willing to have them "Just for being born catalans".
As a consequence, Galicia sunk to the bottom and became a poor region and Catalonia started its surge. It was also one of the regions in Spain that most benefitted from its colonies, and coincidentally the first Catalan nationalist parties, predecessors to those claiming for independence today, were created immediately after Spain lost its latest colonies, Cuba, Puerto Rico and Philippines in 1898. That is, after they lost a big part of their dear captive market. During Franco's dictatorship catalan culture and language was heavily repressed, but the industry was again benefitted with many national ones being located there (SEAT one of them) which, again, given the autharchy that was Spain back then, meant getting another captive market. So the catalan wealth has been created over history (Actually in the last 200 years, as it was a rather poor region before) based on extracting wealth from other regions of Spain thanks to captive markets. So I do not think that it would be fair to say that it's just the rest of Spain wanting to milk Catalonia, considering how much Catalonia has milked them over history to obtain their current status.
I'll post more later, have to go now.I read it a bit differently, since Spain heavily benefitted from the econiomic rise of Catalonia - the spec al low taxes of back then, encouraged greater eco9nomic success in catalonia - and by this it paid more taxes, in quantity, back to Spain. ;) It was self interest that amde Spain letting Cataklonia manage its economy, for Spoain ebefitted as well. And note that many Catalonians until just the past couple of years did not were too unwillingly to support Spain this massively, we are talking about one sixth of your population, but over 20% of the total economic prodcutivy of all Spain united. The point that rose anger, as I read it form the web and the media, is that in the past ten years this scheme was heavily abused and not only had the Catalonians compensating for the financial drama and losses of Spain's - self-made - financial debt mess and the collapsing construction boom (ther latter alsohit Catalonia), but Catlaonia had to accept more andmore own debts to transfer morer and more money to Madrid, which made the Spansih debt burd a bit less, helped to rebuild the collapsing civil society and its social ifnrastructure - and did so at the cost of eroding Catalonians who saw there own living conditions declining, with that of many 'Spaniards raising. And this is, I think what made the ball rolling until it now ended up on the penalty spot. - Nikita hinted the same.
Anyhow, Hitman, I doubt we will reach an agreement here. We two would aleaedy win if you would understand at least that I have no personal thing with you spaniards and support Catalonia not due to just my own ressentiments against Spain. That is not true. It is principal libertarian reasoning and base principles (I am hostile to the concpeiton of streong central states ijn general), and the perception of how I see the Catalaonian anger has build uop over the past decade, while verifying that with the fiancial development over that time.
Rjoya still acts like an emperor fighting for his right to own slaves like property: he now thinks its clever to issue threats of "direct governing". Thats as if Germany would threaten direct governing over Austria. Austria does not want to be untied with germany, how can we make claim Austria is ours and Austrians must serve as our workers and tax payers? Only becasue they speak - a slighty different, btw - German language? Its two quite close but neverthless different cultures and people with two quite different histories! Germans often overseer this when visiting Austria, getting misled by the shared language and thinking Austria ist just a continuaiton of Germany by others means, so to speak. Its not like this, and thus the fine but clear mentlaity differences.
Why I mention Austria? Becasue I got the impresison in past days that Spain holds a somehat comparable misled attitude towards Catalonians like many Germans toward Austria. The economic constellations of course are not comparable, however.
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/demnaechst_ts/20428968/2-format140.jpg
Sorry, couldn't resist. :D
Katalan national football league: "Over! The game is over! Barca's C-team has won! The A-team is the unlucky looser of this match! Now the title hardly can be stolen from the hands of the E-team anymore! The B-team will drop from the league, and the old boys' team rescues itself into the relegation playoffs !"
Back now.
Anyhow, Hitman, I doubt we will reach an agreement here. We two would aleaedy win if you would understand at least that I have no personal thing with you spaniards and support Catalonia not due to just my own ressentiments against Spain. That is not true. It is principal libertarian reasoning and base principles (I am hostile to the concpeiton of streong central states ijn general), and the perception of how I see the Catalaonian anger has build uop over the past decade, while verifying that with the fiancial development over that time.
Oh no, don't worry, I always understood there was nothing personal against Spain there :up: I just reacted because in the thread there was only one version of the story and the "dark side" of the catalan government had not been exposed.
That is socialist drivel, sorry. The usual selflegitimation of plunderers to plunder the ominous "rich".
...
Socialist redistribution schemes always are unfair, arbitary, and criminal. Thery want to bypass and shortcut ther market and its correct mechanisms, fostering the unfit and making ther healthy sick. And they always lead deeper and deeper into the delayed collapse of all. Always. As somebody once said: you do not help the poor by making the wealthier poor as well. You only bribe your audience that way, to get elected.
Its utmost dispiseful.
As a liberal myself I of course agree with that. I only mentioned it to highlight the fact that the higher contribution to that wealth transfer was not based on an attempt to undermine the catalan society or culture, but instead the usual occidental "welfare" socialism. In other words, I wanted to put the blame on the real reason behind (Catalans having more wealth) and not on the one the nationalists yell about (We are targeted because of being catalans). Culture/ethnics have nothing to do with this, it's -as usual :)- money. Of course wether we agree or not with that welfare system (You and me don't) is a completely different matter, but let me anyway highlight something also funny in the catalan nationalists: The vast majority of the coalition (ERC and CUP) are allegedly socialists/communists, yet their Leitmotiv is to cut the wealth transfer to the poor people of other regions, i.e. they discriminate between the catalan poors and the other poors :o and that despite being in favour of inmigration :doh: To say it in a different way: They want the exclusive right to plunder the catalan rich people and not share it with anybody else .... which seems hardly socialist, don't you think? :)
Thats as if Germany would threaten direct governing over Austria. Austria does not want to be untied with germany, how can we make claim Austria is ours and Austrians must serve as our workers and tax payers? Only becasue they speak - a slighty different, btw - German language? Its two quite close but neverthless different cultures and people with two quite different histories! Germans often overseer this when visiting Austria, getting misled by the shared language and thinking Austria ist just a continuaiton of Germany by others means, so to speak. Its not like this, and thus the fine but clear mentlaity differences.
Well put!! Indeed that is exactly what catalans do to us valencians, and to the balears people. Only that, unlike Germany, they are using all means available to them to promote that "Anschluss" So what I tried to highlight from the very beginning, is that the catalans like the palestinians have a very dark side hiding and are not worthy of support in their imperialistic projects - because they deny to others what they claim for themselves. And for the record, besides Madrid and Catalonia, Valencia is the only other net contributing region in Spain.
Skybird
10-11-17, 04:09 PM
Hm. Maybe you Valencians should declare your independence.
:O:
Today we have to regret the death of the pilot of an Eurofighter during the landing maneuver, when he returned from the air show held in Madrid on the occasion of the feast of 12 October. My sincerest condolences to his family and friends.
Well, Skybird, according to Hitman you have exchanged correspondence with someone from the dark side. I hope that does not cause you problems.
Human Right Watch report on what happened in Catalonia: https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/10/12/spain-police-used-excessive-force-catalonia
Imperialism, Anschluss... Does anyone know if it is possible to do it without an army? Wow, maybe we could get to Vladivostok!
Skybird
10-12-17, 01:22 PM
Well, Skybird, according to Hitman you have exchanged correspondence with someone from the dark side. I hope that does not cause you problems.
Other than that just last night I started to levitate against my will, nothing to report.
Whats next? Am I getting used as a ball for you two playing ping pong?
:D
Hm. Maybe you Valencians should declare your independence.
Just to clarify, I am in absolute favour of the catalan independence. As valencian, I believe that the best way to live in peace is to have a border with a nice wall between them and us. There is a saying here that goes like: "Good walls make good neighbours" :salute:
Skybird
10-12-17, 06:54 PM
Just to clarify, I am in absolute favour of the catalan independence. As valencian, I believe that the best way to live in peace is to have a border with a nice wall between them and us. There is a saying here that goes like: "Good walls make good neighbours" :salute:
Me thinks that, too, but amongst all them reunited Germans I am the exception when believing in walls... ;) It confuses me that some people criticise that the artificial borderline drawing in the ME should have led to so much instability and conflict because these artifical borders and artificial states ripped apart ethnic groups that belonged together, and forced groups together that did not belong together and find it hard to stand each other. But when the same is done in Europe (Bosnia, Kosovo) and regarding the many regions that seek independence throughout Europe, then the EU and its supporters are absolutely fine with repeating the same mistakes they criticise historic France and Britian for regarding the ME. Its double standards.
First political prisoners! Spain takes off the mask. Citizens protest throughout Catalonia hitting pans. https://www.dailysabah.com/europe/2017/10/16/spanish-high-court-orders-2-seperatist-catalan-leaders-to-be-jailed http://catalanmonitor.com/2017/09/22/sanchez-and-cuixart-leaders-of-pro-independence-organisations-anc-and-omnium-cultural-have-been-accused-by-the-spanish-state-of-sedition/ http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/prosecutor-protests-sedition-civil-guard-referendum_194334_102.html
Political prisoners? :har:
They are in prison for organizing and promoting violence against people, specifically the policemen that were almost lynched the night before the referendum while investigating (Not when confronting "peaceful" voters, mind you).
https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/cataluna/2017-09-21/guardia-civil-manifestantes-barcelona-robo-porras-coches_1447449/
If they are political prisoners, how come that the visible heads Puigdemont and Junqueras are not in jail also and even before? Let me tell you the answer: Because despite doing illegal things, they have not promoted violence against people, unlike the radicals imprisoned today.
Another lie of the radcal independentism goes down. :salute:
More independentist lies exposed:
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/17/inenglish/1508235718_372067.html
Skybird
10-19-17, 05:39 AM
Madrid mulls subjugation of Catalonia via direct governing and suspending autonomy. Which shows what autonomy really is worth. Its dependency and being owned, the fact hidden behind a wall of roses.
Unacceptable in the Europe of the 21st century. Spain has no right to own the Catalonians against their will.
-----
Same happening currently with the Kurds in Iraq, Syria and Turkey. Slave holders at play everywhere.
ikalugin
10-19-17, 06:35 AM
Do you happen to have a regional identity within Germany?
Madrid mulls subjugation of Catalonia via direct governing and suspending autonomy. Which shows what autonomy really is worth. Its dependency and being owned, the fact hidden behind a wall of roses.
Unacceptable in the Europe of the 21st century. Spain has no right to own the Catalonians against their will.
If you use autonomy to attack the rest of the nation, I guess you can expect a reaction. In any case, the autonomy is not going to be suspended, the action over Cataluńa is going to be limited to have new elections in that community, so actually a step towards letting people vote (legally this time).
It surprises me anyway that you talk about catalans being owned, in fact the territory pertains to all spaniards and not just to catalans. Any catalan is free to split from Spain by refusing the spanish nationality and getting a different one, what they can't expect however is to split a piece of spanish soil and take it with themselves. :hmmm:
Skybird
10-20-17, 06:49 AM
Hitman , I wrote a long reply, and then deleted it, it is useless. you imply Spain owes Catalonia and Catalonians are Spaniards by descent. You have history against you there, the timeline can be checked easily on Wikipedia, for example. If the catalonains say No to you Spaniards, then No means No, and the only thing you Spaniards can do is: accept it and try to negotiate terms and rules for good neighbourship, so that the neighboorhood is a calm and friendly one. To just make claim for this people and say the land they are on is yours, is an aggression, and historically not really that true. Check the descent of the Catalonians in the 5th century, the massive influence the Gothic law code hadon the peninsula until the 11th century, and the meaning and importance of the forming of Aragon in the mid and late medieval, its meaning for the mediterran region. Then check the Franconian-Spanish war, the war of the Spanish succession, and the era Franco. If then you still tell me that your people, the Spaniards, have claim for the the Catalonians and they are you, then you live in an alternative reality then the one my internet is coming from. Genetically, Catalonains are - now mixed - Visogoths, not Iberians. However, later obviously a mixing of blood between both people took place, but still: to claim Catalonians are Iberians, is wrong. Culturally, and ethnic-genetically as well. Thats why you have a shioft of hair colour on the Spanish peninsula, from Portugal int he West to the Eastern Medieval coast. The more you move to the East, the greater your chance to find not just the tpyical dark/black hair, but lighter hair coklours as well, brighter skin teints as well. Its not jumping into the eye, but a countable fact.
( We had the same in Germany as well, once, before the mass migration: the more Eastward you travelled, the higher the rate of dark eyes and dark hair you saw, combined with a rise in second names whose endings give away their original slawic hertitage: Kowalski, Kryzandowsi, etc.
No, I have not turned into an expert for Spanish history over night. But timelines and summaries and chapters are avialable on the web, easily. And yes, indeed I have read about this issue repatedly in the past three weeks. The era of the Corona de Aragon (for all others reading this thread: a union between Castilia and Catalonia and then many other provinces and shires on the peninsula and the Mediterranean islands, it reached as far as into Geece). I somehow find it most fascinating. Maybe I will even get a full book about just this. Three weeks ago I did not even know that such a kingdom even existed.
Note: I would claim the same right to separate for any of the German federal states and reigonal poöulations, fi that were what they really want. Self-empowerment to make claim for owning a people or region against its will, I do not accept as legal items of law codes, they are nil and void from the one ton they got written down. I would grant the same right to the Irish, the Scots, the Walisians, the Basques, and who else there is in Eurpope seeking independence (I recall the EU lists over 60 according regional conflicts currently). No state and no government has the right to impose its rule over the people that refuses wanting to be governed by this state. If the state does not take this No as a No and imposes its rule by force, this state is a tyrant, a conqueror, an agressor, a villain. Simply this. And that is true for any state there is, not just Spain, to have this clearly said.
No, I have not turned into an expert for Spanish history over night
You certainly haven't, considering what you posted above.
Corona de Aragon (for all others reading this thread: a union between Castilia and Catalonia and then many other provinces and shires on the peninsula and the Mediterranean islands, it reached as far as into Geece)
Wrong on all counts.
1) Aragon was an independent kingdom, actually in war with Castilia for a big part of the middle ages while both were advancing towards the south, defeating the moors (And sometimes forging alliances with them to fight the other christian kingdoms). I can actually trace my family back to one ancestor who died in one of those wars, in the 14th century, so I know what I'm talking about.
2) A union between King Fernando of Aragon and Queen Elizabeth of Castilia in the 15th century was the foundation of Spain (Not really yet, it was actually with their grandson Charles I, which you germans know as Charles V of the Sacred roman german Empire, from the Habsburg family), which you seem to be mixing with Aragon itself.
3) Aragon was a kingdom whose existance at some point became critical when his king died with no descendants and his brother Ramiro II had to abandon his life as monk to asume the crown and provide descendancy. He only had a daughter, Petronila, and he married her to Count Berenguer IV of Barcelona (This was the catalan guy) who did not rule over what is today Catalonia, but over a part of it that had been formerly vasail provinces of the Carolingian french kings. Berenguer was no longer vasail of anybody, but neither was he a king, and thus he was dying to get such rank recognized, for what he accepted to marry Petronila according to the customs of Aragon in 1137. As such, he swore the aragonese laws and was incorporated to the aragonese kings family, instead of the opposite (Petronila to his family) which was the usual back then. Their descendants always ruled as kings of Aragon, and never of Catalonia itself, for many reasons, the main being that catalonia did not exist as such. The collection of shires and provinces where people spoke a similar language was what you call now Catalonia, and it was in fact under jurisdiction of different counts, therefore f.e. the Earldoms of Rosellón and Ampurias were not included until 1171 and 1325, a time when The Earldom of Barcelona was already included in the Crown of Aragon. The son of Berenguer and Petronila became king Alfonso II of Aragon, and Count of Barcelona, never king of Catalonia or a inexistant catalano-aragonese Crown, from which there is absolutely no reference to anywhere.
4) "many other provinces and shires on the peninsula and the Mediterranean islands" is an understatement when you consider the Kingdom of Valencia, fully independent from Aragon (And of course from the earldom of Barcelona), a kingdom that was so rich and advanced that it had its own golden century of literature in valencian language well before the catalans had even a standard for their own variant of language. Of course, the modern pancatalanism has hurried to incorporate such wealth of culture claiming it's their own one, which is absolutely false as all writers were valencian and stated that they wrote in valencian, not in catalan (Back then catalan and valencian were different dialects of the same language originated from the occitane variant spoken in the northeast part of Iberian). Modern pancatalanism tries to project the idea of Aragon being essentially a catalan kingdom and that is false.
Maybe I will even get a full book about just this. Three weeks ago I did not even know that such a kingdom even existed.
I can make some recommendations if you want, so that you can avoid intoxication (And I'm talking about foreign authors, not spanish ones) :03:
No state and no government has the right to impose its rule over the people that refuses wanting to be governed by this state. If the state does not take this No as a No and imposes its rule by force, this state is a tyrant, a conqueror, an agressor, a villain.
What people? What are your requirements to be able to refuse to be governed by a state? What is your criteria? Can the 50% of catalans who want to stay in Spain retain 50% of catalan territory and not be forced to be ruled by an independent catalan authority they refuse? Can I declare myself independent from Spain and have my own state and flag?
Thats why you have a shioft of hair colour on the Spanish peninsula, from Portugal int he West to the Eastern Medieval coast. The more you move to the East, the greater your chance to find not just the tpyical dark/black hair, but lighter hair coklours as well, brighter skin teints as well. Its not jumping into the eye, but a countable fact.
That is true, I am myself blond and with blue eyes as well as fair skinned. My mother's family name is of german ascendancy (In remote times it was spoken "Bertwhald")
To just make claim for this people and say the land they are on is yours, is an aggression, and historically not really that true
Careful with that, if you claim history then you have to accept ALL the history and not only just one part. Over history the territory that now is the Catalan community was incorporated to other entities, first the aragonese and french Crowns, later the spanish and french Crowns, and not always through conquest as you already know, but many times willingly. If you claim history, you have to accept everything that happened on it and not be selective.
But in any case, in 1978 the spanish Constitution was adopted with a big majority in favour in Catalonia, actually at 90% it had more votes than in other parts of Spain.
What will happen or what will the outcome be if the Government in Madrid use the article 155 in the Spanish law ?
I'm thinking about the ordinary people in Catalonia and the people living there. Will there be any change for them ?
I'm also thinking about those serving the military, but who's heart belongs to Catalonia. Will some of the generals or officers break off from Madrid and (forgot the word, when a soldier hold the flag of the country and say some word and maybe having his/her other hand on the heart) ?
Markus
What will happen or what will the outcome be if the Government in Madrid use the article 155 in the Spanish law ?
Article 155 is copied from the german federal constitution (The whole spanish one was heavily inspired by that one) and allows to give direct orders to the administration if the local government doesn't act according to the general interest. The spanish government in agreement with the opposition is as of now willing to use it only for: 1) Order the banks where the catalan government has accounts for bills and salaries to be paid instead of paralyzing the economy and administration, and 2) Call the catalans for elections to their parliament.
the ordinary people in Catalonia and the people living there. Will there be any change for them ?
Unlike the special situations where constitutional rights are suspended (Alarm, exception and war), the use of the 155 just implies giving direct orders from Madrid to the catalan administration to guarantee that it continues working as intended. The citizens retain all their rights and freedoms as ordinary and unlike the separatist propaganda, the autonomy is not suspended (Unlike what the UK did with NI some years ago) but continues in all aspects, with the only exception of the particular areas where the catalan government is overriden.
I'm also thinking about those serving the military, but who's heart belongs to Catalonia. Will some of the generals or officers break off from Madrid and (forgot the word, when a soldier hold the flag of the country and say some word and maybe having his/her other hand on the heart) ?
I don't think there is any such case. The military are quite homogeneous and selection and promotion has been watched closely after the failed coup of 1982. In any case, there is absolutely no talk whatsoever to call the army for anything. The affair is viewed in Spain and in the EU as an internal matter, which the Police at most has to enforce if needed.
I should also mention that, according to many analists here, there is no eventual will in the catalan government to push for real independence (Aside from the radical ones in the CUP), but instead to force a big constitutional reform that basically changes the whole fiscal and contributing system (Something I personally support BTW).
Skybird
10-20-17, 03:47 PM
Hitman, I follow the available general summaries on Spanish history here. For the post above, I used both german and English wikipedia, which both have two totally different board of editors. Their summaries are brief, but more or less identical, at least not mutually contradicting. And I have no personal call to make in all this. Its just about a principle. I do not accept when it when any state or people claim that it has the right to enforce its dominance over another people that does not want to be governed by them. This is non-negotiable a principle for me, no matter what people it is about. The claim you make so naturally for Catalonia, I cannot see founded in history at all, not this easily and all-embracing as you imply. I see a quite clear ethnic and cultural difference between Catalonians and Iberian Spaniards, rooting back roughly one and a half millenia.
Also, now saying this for the third time, I do not try to tell any side what the Catalonians want. I am not certain the catalonians even know that for themselves, why should I know it then. They should have elections for a new parliament and vote in or out representatives who are for or against independence. And this new parliament then should immediately, as its first act, make it clear what Catalonia wants. I said this on this board already one day before Rajoy came up with his demand for elections (in fact it surprised me that he wants elections, too, this can easily backfire against him). What is needed is clearness about what the Catalonians indeed want. A majority for or against secession. But once that has become clear, both sides have to accept - and not fight against - the outcome completely and unconditionally. If the catalonains say "we stay", so be it, I'm fine with it. When they say "we leave", I'm fone with it as well, but Madrid has to accept it, without any conditions, period.
What the constitution says to deny them the right to make this decision, on a most profound level must be considered nil and void. It simply shall not matter. A constitution claiming the right for Germany to conquer Poland once again and win back the lost eastgerman territories, would be nil and void in my eyes. A constitution saying that no people has the right to leave the national union if it wants that, is nil and void in my eyes. Just that you write yourself a law that suites your likes and needs, does not make it already just and ethically right. States can - and all to often do - act barbarically, criminally, corrupt, on the grounds of laws they have written themselves to legalise their overstepping of most profound ethical principles. You living i the land of Franco and me living in the land of Hitler should know that all too well. The police terror took place on the grounds of laws and the constitutions of that time. Was it therefore okay? The Nuremberg trials found a very clear answer to that question and the question whether a given order can justify obeying commands that lead to inhumane actions, and it was not a positive one.
Nobody has the right to own somebody else against his will. This is what it comes down to. It does not matter whether it is a claim raised in political or historical or religious context, it just does not matter, never, and it never shall matter for sure. Just this.
You either comply with this basic principle, or you don't. A compromise is not possible - its either the one or the other you chose, never a bit of both.
I do not accept when it when any state or people claim that it has the right to enforce its dominance over another people that does not want to be governed by them. This is non-negotiable a principle for me, no matter what people it is about.Then why are you supporting here that a majority of catalans are entitled to own the minority and drag them to a new independent state that will rule over them? Don't you really see the contradiction in what you are saying?
I know you don't side with independentists or unionists, but you suppport the idea that a votation in that specific community (Or any other bond by your criteria of culture, genetics, history, etc) is enough to make such decission - which necessary leads to the minority being owned against their will. Your reasoning has therefore a fundamental flaw, I'm afraid. There is always someone who will be owned when a votation between contradictory options is made in a group of persons.
I see a quite clear ethnic and cultural difference between Catalonians and Iberian Spaniards, rooting back roughly one and a half millenia. You should update your sources because 60,3% of the current catalan population is the result of inmigration during just the last century.
https://elpais.com/diario/1999/10/02/catalunya/938826452_850215.html
Furthermore, the catalan concept of nationalism is not based on ethnic or genetic treats, but just on the idea of living in Catalonia and speaking catalan (The latter the most important and that explains their intention to Anschluss Valencia and Baleares). Which is why there are so many second generation inmigrants joining the crowd of separatism thanks to adoctrination in schools, despite having nothing to do genetically with the original catalans.
The concept was pushed already by Jordi Pujol by heavily favouring the inmigration of muslims because he believed that they would be easier to turn into catalan speakers than latinamericans or people from other spanish regions:
https://gaceta.es/espana/pujol-2008-inmigracion-musulmana-cataluna-20170902-1019/
As a result, catalonia is the most islamized community in the whole Spain:
https://gaceta.es/opinion/islam-cataluna-20170820-1723/
So to sum-up, even the very own catalan separatists don't pretend that they are as of today a homogeneous and clear ethnically differentiated society. Their claim to independence has therefore no different foundation than if me and me and some friends would want to become independent from Spain just because we all are blue-eyed and share personal culture and set of ethic principles.
What the constitution says to deny them the right to make this decision, on a most profound level must be considered nil and void. It simply shall not matter. A constitution claiming the right for Germany to conquer Poland once again and win back the lost eastgerman territories, would be nil and void in my eyes. A constitution saying that no people has the right to leave the national union if it wants that, is nil and void in my eyes. Just that you write yourself a law that suites your likes and needs, does not make it already just and ethically right. States can - and all to often do - act barbarically, criminally, corrupt, on the grounds of laws they have written themselves to legalise their overstepping of most profound ethical principles. You living i the land of Franco and me living in the land of Hitler should know that all too well. The police terror took place on the grounds of laws and the constitutions of that time. Was it therefore okay? The Nuremberg trials found a very clear answer to that question and the question whether a given order can justify obeying commands that lead to inhumane actions, and it was not a positive one. Your votation of independence doesn't either guarantee the decission is right instead of barbaric, criminal and corrupt. In fact, there is way less control over people's subjetivity in a secret vote than over a law debated and made public. Following your example, just because a referendum resulted in a 90% of catalans in favour of waging war against Valencia to consumate an Anschluss that would not be okay. A referendum amongst catalans is thus not necessarily the correct solution.
Skybird
10-21-17, 05:36 AM
Hitman, this becomes ridiculous now, you are twisting things in a way that I am not willing to spend more time on, and you also use double standards, complaining about Catalonians by majority forcing the minority and non-Catalonains to follow (well, the alternatives would be to throw dice, flip a coin or have a god sentence by duel between two fighters), but not caring when big Spain does the same with regard to Catalonia. The difference is that the Catalonians have very valid reasons, imo, to claim the place it is abiout as their place, while Spain as national entity has very much less reason to claim it as its own. They are a coherent ethnic and cultural sub group, the total population of the peninsula "Spain" is not that. If the population in this locap region wants to walk alone form now on, then that is what they want to do from now on. Period.
The issue between you Valencians and them I do not comment on, I simply know nothing about it.
If they would have elections there, and form a parliament that by majority would decide for independence - would you let them go peacefully , or would you say No and impose your will by force over a people that does not want you to have a say over them? Simple question for yourself, the answer is Yes or No, no in between.
I could also ask if we Westphalians would tell you Valencians what you have to do and that you owe us paying tribute, would you accept it? ;) That simple it is what it all comes down to and when one stops making it complicated.
Let them go peacefully, if that is what they find they want, and win good neighbours with intact relations, open borders and proven business ties. Force them to serve you against their will and to their disadvantage, and win submitted, embittered, unloyal vasalls that may one day pull their knifes against you, while becoming an evil oppressor and villain yourself. Whats the better fundament to form a future on? To me, the answer is crystal clear. Every action has reaction and what force you inflict, inevitably returns.
I'm out of here. ;)
D I R E C T R U L E F R O M M A D R I D
Funny that you say I use double standards, when it is clearly you who is doing that. You clearly pretend that the majority of catalans can own the minority - which is exactly the opposite of what you said was your position. It is not me who is using double standards, or twisting things. I always said that the majority of spanish population can decide over a minority of catalans, you however denied that with this:
Nobody has the right to own somebody else against his will. This is what it comes down to. It does not matter whether it is a claim raised in political or historical or religious context, it just does not matter, never, and it never shall matter for sure. Just this. And yet, now you say that a majority of catalans can actually own the minority of catalans -be it to stay in Spain or split from it.
Well, everybody is prisoner of his words and master of his silences and I believe you have already shown clearly that you have no coherent argument on the matter -Besides a badly informed knowledge of our history.
MrLovelyName!
10-21-17, 02:29 PM
Yea this is quite a sad time to be alive...
Have just heard, that Carles Puigdemont have rejected the action Madrid toke earlier today, Saturday.
I can't figure out if this activating article 155 will make the situation better or worse in Catalonia and/or Spain.
Markus
Time will tell, but at this point it was obvious that Madrid had to make a decission. It was impossible to continue like this, the catalan administration was in a status of paralysis and the investors and companies were fleeing and depleting the banks. Ironically, if Catalonia stays in Spain they will probably have become a poor region nobody trusts, so their financial claim will at least be shelved -as they will need to be bailed out.
Skybird
10-21-17, 05:02 PM
http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/bestseller-autor-sanchez-pinol-ein-plaedoyer-fuer-kataloniens-unabhaengigkeit-von-spanien_id_7709220.html
In German, sorry.
Have just heard, that Carles Puigdemont have rejected the action Madrid toke earlier today, Saturday.
I can't figure out if this activating article 155 will make the situation better or worse in Catalonia and/or Spain.
Markus
Nothing could be worse than the aplication of article 155
1- Cessation of the democratically elected Parliament by Catalan citizens
2- Imposition of holding new elections against the will of the Catalan people. Prohibition of being presented to the new elections to certain Catalan politicians.
3- Prohibition of being presented to these elections to the parties that are in favor of the Independence of Catalonia
4- Control of the Catalan media (especially the public) so that they do not issue opinions contrary to those of the Spanish Government. These media are the only ones that issue opinions contrary to those of the Spanish Government.
5- Catalonia ceases to have control over its finances
6- All the competences of the Catalan Government are exercised by Madrid for an indefinite period.
7- Summarized in one sentence: to return to the situation that existed during the dictatorship of Franco.
This is a message to Europe: today is the people of Catalonia, tomorrow could be you.
http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/bestseller-autor-sanchez-pinol-ein-plaedoyer-fuer-kataloniens-unabhaengigkeit-von-spanien_id_7709220.html
In German, sorry.
I could not read the article in German. I know the thinking of this writer and I am convinced that the article is very interesting, but now is too late to translate it or I'm too lazy to do it, choose the one you think best.
Do you know that the presentation of one of his books in Holland was boycotted by the Spanish embassy?
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/review-victus-the-fall-of-barcelona-by-albert-s%C3%A1nchez-pinol-1.2072782gl
@ Nikita
So it made the situation worse than it was already
Your response to my earlier posting, made me remember a FB-friend who wrote-Will this be the spark that started the second civil war.
I hope not-I hope this will be the beginning for a new and better era for Catalonia.
Markus
1- Cessation of the democratically elected Parliament by Catalan citizensFalse, only the government is ceased.
2- Imposition of holding new elections against the will of the Catalan people. Remaining without government is no viable option, and it amazes me that calling people to vote is an imposition. It seems it is not when calling for an illegal referendum. So much for double standards ...
3- Prohibition of being presented to these elections to the parties that are in favor of the Independence of Catalonia
Where the hell did you get that from? That is simply a lie. Please LINK to any official statement saying this. Only the courts have the power to make such a decission, and it has not been made. This is simply a(nother) blatant lie.
4- Control of the Catalan media (especially the public) so that they do not issue opinions contrary to those of the Spanish Government. These media are the only ones that issue opinions contrary to those of the Spanish Government.
Control has not yet been taken, and you already can state that it will ban opinions contrary to the government. What an impressive amount of
future guessing, could you please tell me what number will be prized in the Xmas lottery also? Plus, it affects only the public TV3 media, used to promote disturbs and a sectarian singel vision of things, but not in any case the private media. For that, again, a court rule would be required. Please LINK to that decission from a court, or face the fact you just dropped another lie.
5- Catalonia ceases to have control over its finances
Catalonia and the whole Spain are in fact intervened by the EU since years. Welcome to the reality.
6- All the competences of the Catalan Government are exercised by Madrid for an indefinite period.
Again false, it has a maximum of 6 months and is subject to elections in that term.
7- Summarized in one sentence: to return to the situation that existed during the dictatorship of Franco.
This is the most ridiculous of all. With Franco nobody would be able to speak catalan, demonstate on the streets, or voice his opinions. All which people are doing continuously. This is pure propaganda to touch sentiments.
Again show a LINK to an official decission of suspending the fundamental rights of all citizens (Arts. 14 to 29), which never existed with Franco, or asume you lied again.
I will tell you what law was passed that actually supressed all that: The referndum law by the catalan government, which eliminated the spanish legality including those basic rights as long as they were opposed to the referndum. And I do put links to support it, here you go:
http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20170704/ley-referendum-cataluna-pdf-6147161
Basically, all basic rights including life, personal health and integrity, free opinion, etc as included in the spanish constitution are not valid as soon as they oppose the celebration of the referendum. In other words, had catalan police followed it literally, they would have had to shoot the spanish police trying to impede it - or any citizen helping them. Fortunately, nobody was mad enough for that.
I don't know which one of you two are right or wrong.
I do know that the government in Catalonia, including Puigdemont will be fired and will not receive any payment.
This was said on Danish News. It said that if the parlament on Friday decide to follow Rajoy proposal activating article 155 Carles Puigdemont and others in his catalonia government will be fired and they will not get any payment thereafter.
And as I understand it will mean that those people from Catalonia who wish an independent state will not have any governmental support, if they are fired from Madrid
Markus
Mapuc,
in my opinion there is no fundamental right or wrong in this all, in its core it's a matter of principles one might share or not and I personally respect and believe in a good amount of what many catalans want. What I don't like however, and which brought me here is the intoxication that the independentits are creating. Since the very beginning they were very active in the international scene because they knew their only chance was putting international pressure on Spain. That failed when the EU backed the spanish government but they certainly have the sympathy of many people elsewhere -sometimes because they share independentism, sometimes because they believe they are truly opressed, sometimes because they just want to see Spain implode for whatever reasons.
The spanish constitution of 1978 allows its own modification including -if the agreement exists- giving independence to a part of it. The independentists however never promoted such a debate loyally in the spanish parliament -and that despite having a parliamentary group there and having been key for stability many years. Their group could have promoted the initiative to discuss such things in an open debate and vote in the spanish parliament but they never did it. Thinking it would fail is no excuse, they should have promoted that debate where it had to be done, and then said: "We have loyally tried it as the spanish constitution says, and we got the door closed in our noses". As things are, what they did was disloyally manipulate population using their TV and their powers in education (There are hundreds of protests logged over the years against indoctrination and exclusion of spanish language and culture, as well as court rules systematically non obeyed about the minimal amount of hours of spanish language in education) and push the population into an open confrontation with existing legality. That I do not support by any means, though I would have supported them if they had done things as they are meant to be done.
Their claim about Spain not letting them free is not acceptable when they haven't even knocked on the door of the procedures they themselves approved by 90% in 1978 when the Constitution was voted.
Le Monde unveils and critizises the manipulation on the catalan public TV as well as the disloyal attitude of independentists. It also specifically dismisses as lies the claim of a return to dictatorship as with Franco:
http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2017/10/23/en-catalogne-la-politique-du-pire_5204732_3232.html
In french only. But so you can see there are also serious voices outside Spain who support a different version than that of the independentists.
I found a very interesting document on this subject about Spain and Catalonia, among other countries. It is on the web of The U. S. House of Representatives.
Title: “U.S. Policy Toward National Self-Determination Movements”
Testimony of Dr. Paul Williams Rebecca I. Grazier Professor of Law and International Relations American University President and Co-Founder, Public International Law and Policy Group
House Committee on Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on Europe, Eurasia, and Emerging Threats
Here you are, <a href="http://docs.house.gov/meetings/FA/FA14/20160315/104672/HHRG-114-FA14-Wstate-WilliamsP-20160315.pdf" target="_blank">http://docs.house.gov/meetings/FA/FA14/20160315/104672/HHRG-114-FA14-Wstate-WilliamsP-20160315.pdf</a>
Skybird
10-25-17, 10:49 AM
disloyal attitude of independentists
:Kaleun_Applaud:
Gotta love this nonsense. Want your freedom and demand not to be milked by others by force - and you are "disloyal".
Reject socialist plundering by state and lobby groups, and you are "anti-social". Refuse to follow the stupidity of another state's EU policies, and you are "anti-solidaric". Refuse equal privileges to homosexual couples like for families raising children (if there is any protection for these left...), and you are homophobic. Call Islam totalitarian and racist, what by ideological content it is, and you are racist yourself. Demand controlled and discriminating migration policy replacing uncontrolled mass movement, and you are xenophobic. Enjoy that you have somethign that you like, and get called cold-hearted and unsensitive to the injustice in the world. Claim the right to resist to an attacker by force, and get called violent and "not better than he is" yourself.
Refuse the claim of a slaveholder that he owns you, and you are getting called "disloyal".
:D Ford said that the Model-T was available in just any colour customers would wish, as long as it was Black.
Gotta love this nonsense. Want your freedom and demand not to be milked by others by force - and you are "disloyal".
Disloyal refers to what the catalan nationalist governments have been doing using all powers they got not just to claim something, but to indoctrinate and agitate people. The level of crazyness this has reached in school and TV is almost 3rd world. Here is a study of the modification of national perception in Catalonia between 1988 and 2015:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/307977543_Variaciones_del_Sentimiento_Nacionalista _en_Cataluna_entre_1988_y_2015
Unfortunately you will have to use google translator, as it is in spanish.
Refuse the claim of a slaveholder that he owns you, and you are getting called "disloyal".
Yeah well, according to you 1/2 of separatist catalans can own the other half, so I guess you are not the most qualified to say that. You seem to have like many populists not a clear idea of what democracy means and equal that to a "majority" in decissions.
Anyway, I already noticed that you have refused to learn something new and use reason, and instead have sided sentimentally with the separatists for purely romantic reasons. When you said that Aragon was the result of a union between Castilia and Catalonia I should have known that you haven't understood anything - or refused to.
But if you are still interested in getting a book from someone really impartial and external to all this, get one from Henry Kamen.
Anyway, I already noticed that you have refused to learn something new and use reason,This is unfortunately how Skybird is these days. He reads/hears/comes up with an idea, likes it and sticks to it no matter what, until the next idea comes by.
Skybird
10-27-17, 08:40 AM
And it goes BOOOOM...
What did Rajoy expect. Pressure. Counterpressure.
Ten days ago even EU-loyal and government-loving German state-TV reflected briefly about the situation ten years ago, when they had negotiated an improved autonomy status for Catalonia, which then was ready to be signed by Madrid and Barcelona alike.
The one guy who then porevented it at the very last minute, was a certain senor named Rajoy.
When it is even German state-TV, which is very left-leaning and politically correct and EU-friendly and sided with Madrid and commented against the Catalonians, reported this point, then I strongly assume there must be at least one huge grain of truth in it. These days there is more Aktuelle Kamera than Tagesschau in German state TV news.
I wonder whether now troops will be marching, or not. In the past years, during the euro-crisis, rajoy diod not leave the impression to me that he is the brightest of lights, just arrogant, and now it all blew up due to this his arrogance. He could have defused it severla times, and refused to do so every single time. Even if they now use police force to force Catalonia under Spain's whip, the damage is done and the prestige of Spain has dramatically suffered. That of Puidgemont probably as well, however.
And now the Valle de Arán wants in turn to independence itself from Catalonia ...
http://www.abc.es/espana/catalunya/politica/abci-consejo-general-valle-aran-convoca-pleno-extraordinario-sobre-independencia-cataluna-201710271925_noticia.html
:Kaleun_Applaud: Let's go on with this, I want to create the independent republic of my own house, crown me king and have my own flag - and of course no longer pay taxes :D
And you know the best? I will have Skybird's support, so that nobody can own me :har:
Skybird
10-27-17, 03:58 PM
So happy it is, as long as master just feeds it, and pats its warm, soft belly occasionally.
http://www.pawmygosh.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/belly23-570x759.jpg
https://s1.postimg.org/1y8d88845b/bliss.jpg
Skybird
10-27-17, 04:35 PM
Enjoy seeing rigged elections in Catlaonia soon, like we enjoyed rigged elections in East Germany for 40 years. Works fantastically, and makes sure the parliament is in line with the will of the central government. ;) The Chinese swear on it.
makman94
10-28-17, 02:26 AM
...Let's go on with this, I want to create the independent republic of my own house, crown me king and have my own flag - and of course no longer pay taxes :D
...
You really think that this is the point of Catalonia people Alberto ?
As i see it,they want to take their future in their hand becuase ,obviously, they don't trust the rajoy
Taking their future in their hands doesn't automatically mean that they want to avoid their responsibilities or 'hiting' the EU (as Juncker said.Very 'strange' statement by Juncker btw,how Catalonia's willness is a cleft for EU?).
Catalonia people want to leave Spain and this is something that Spanish people must think very deeply and seriously.
When your brother wants to leave home becuase he is not huppy, you are not start fighting him or threaten him with money draining,right?
See my point Alberto ? Maybe Catalonia people have valid reasons for not feeling deep inside as Spanish people and this ,for me, is the point that must be seriously thought from both sides and both must try bridging.
Though i am wondering ,if they really want to leave why Spanish Central are forcing them not ? money talk maybe ? What do you think is really the reason and Catalonians want to leave ?
Skybird
10-28-17, 07:00 AM
You really think that this is the point of Catalonia people Alberto ?
As i see it,they want to take their future in their hand becuase ,obviously, they don't trust the rajoy
Taking their future in their hands doesn't automatically mean that they want to avoid their responsibilities or 'hiting' the EU (as Juncker said.Very 'strange' statement by Juncker btw,how Catalonia's willness is a cleft for EU?).
Catalonia people want to leave Spain and this is something that Spanish people must think very deeply and seriously.
When your brother wants to leave home becuase he is not huppy, you are not start fighting him or threaten him with money draining,right?
See my point Alberto ? Maybe Catalonia people have valid reasons for not feeling deep inside as Spanish people and this ,for me, is the point that must be seriously thought from both sides and both must try bridging.
Though i am wondering ,if they really want to leave why Spanish Central are forcing them not ? money talk maybe ? What do you think is really the reason and Catalonians want to leave ?
The more I read about it in past weeks, the more it dawned on me that Catalonia and Castilia never should have come together in the first.
Until the 15th century both were independent kingdoms, then the feudal elites in both countries thought it was a clever idea to unite, by marriage. But both places were very different in culture and sociology from all beginning on, with Castilia more imperial oriented towards a central state that should once cover the whole peninsula, and Catalunya being more "burgeoise" and open-world-minded, wanting to have just a lose federalist union. Castilia wanted the strict centralist regime from beginning on, and Catalonia not. See the locations: Castilia at that time being a land-power on the peninsula, while Catalonia had that access to the Mediterranean and had many trade relations to other places in the world, outclassing that of Castilia - the one partner in this marriage sitting in his cave since long, not knowing much else than that rock he was sitting on, and the other being open-minded and stemming from foreign migrants anyway, used to travel the seas and interact with other places and people with other views. You have here the basis of why the mentality of both sides is so very different.
You ask what the Catalonians want. Its their centuries-old view of that since that unification, that was arranged by some elitist circles at the top, not by the people, they get supressed and exploited by a centralist govenrment that rules over them while they never wanted that, they see themselves as victims of this oppression, and since centuries so. Later historical events, the Spanish war of succession, the civil war, saw them always lining up with the more federalist, more liberal side in conflicts - and they always lost, while the centralists, who had established Castilia as an imperialistic world power with seat in now Madrid, won.
Also, do not forget that the Catalonians as an ethnic group are of different decendence than the Iberian Spaniards. We are not only talking about two different cultures and languages, but two different ethnicities. The catalunyans stem from Iberians mixing with Visagoths that were send by Rome, the Iberian spaniards stayed more for themselves. Hence the different roots of their languages and culture. The Roman heritage in Catalonia influenced most of the peninsula until the 11th or even 12th century.
This going together of Castilia and Catalonya - should never have happened. The centuries since then mostly have seen this dynamic energy stemming from two different tribes rubbing too harshly against each other. The one being a centralist, imperially minded blokehead sitting in the centre and thinking the world has to revolve around him and all others have to serve him, the other being a far more-open-minded world traveller who came to wealth by trade and open interaction and trade with the world beyond its borders (and mental horizon). Two very different mentalities. You can see Madrid and its self-legitimizing claim to own others against their will, as a logical consequence of this attitude. You can see the hope of the Catalonians that Europe will accept them and the EU as well, as a - reality-denying, i fear - continuation of their traditional open-mindedness towards trading partners in the world.
What saddens me, is that the Catalonian hope most likely is in vain, for it is up against an even more merciless enemy than just Madrid, that is the EU. The EU wants to establish itself as the centralist imperial power over the whole continent, a Sovjet Union-style planned continental economy and planned uniform monoculture where only strawman alibis are allowed to mention cultural identities, but uniformity indeed is meant. The signals are clear, from Berlin, Paris, brussels, everywhere. The Catalonians will not be accepted. For the EU, suppression of people and using force and blackmailing to ensure EU rule over all, is fully acceptable, as we see these days. I did not expect anything else from this thing, and thats why I dispise it so unconditionally. We have seen one Sovjet Union, and now they form another one, based on the same powerpoltical mechanisms and principles and alibi lies. Spit on it.
The Catalonians have my sympathy, my respect and my compassion. Historically, their cause is just, their demand is legitimate. But I fear they have no chance - for the world, the EU is neither just, nor legitimate.
I am also certain that it is about money. Catalonia is the biggest net payer into Spain, and Spain does not want to lose its milk cow, even if that cow demands to be let free. Who shall pay for the Spanish ambitions and life style then with its richest subregion gone?
Ironically, mentioning this once again, the Catalonians initially by majority - probably, that is my assumption only - did not even want independence, just a fair renegotiation of economic redistributon schemes inside Spain, for they saw in the past decade that not only gave they more than any other, but that now they had to give so much that other rose while themselves they started to decline, typical socilaist logic to legitimise plundering. State corruption did its thing, too. . This new autonomy statute was negotiated and ready to get signed already ten years ago, and then we would not have gotten this situation today. Ten years ago, Rajoy prevented it at the last second, he is thus strongly co-responsible for the mess there is, and in the present situation his imperial habitus and cock-pride (Gockelstolz) of "We are Spain and we must not let go anyone" made things even worse. He now has brought up Catalonians against Spain that before just wanted better autonomy conditions but wanted to stay in spain. He has fundamentally increased the resistence to Spain.
Considering his dream-walking during the past ten years of the socalled Euro-crisis, I cannot say I see myself becoming a fan of him any time soon.
The clever thing is to have a mediator from outside. But not the EU, because the EU is a heavily biased interest party, no neutral third party. Goal must be to reach a peaceful status of co-existence between two sovereign states, with open borders and trade runnign on grounds of the already established trading contacts. Spain then must not resist Catalonia forming contacts with trading partners form abroad, and European states have to accept that and start doing business. - All this is absolutely unrealistic and will not happen, but it is the only reasonable scenario. What we will instead see is the ongoing suppression of a people, rigged elections, and Spain securing its claim by the power of de factor tyranny. The German Democratic Republic once held the word "democratic" in its name, too. It nevertheless had nothign to do with that. It was tyranny, plain and simple.
I admit I think today's Germany would act the same way, if federal states or big regions would have enough of it all and declare their independence. Its a lousy world. A few days of sun light do not change the principally miserable nature of man-made poliltics.
Jimbuna
10-28-17, 08:12 AM
I am aware the UK government have announced they will not recognise Catalan independence but does anyone know of any countries that have already announced an opposite stance?
Skybird
10-28-17, 08:28 AM
Israel recognizes Kurdistan, does this count as a placeholder?:O:
ikalugin
10-28-17, 01:59 PM
I am aware the UK government have announced they will not recognise Catalan independence but does anyone know of any countries that have already announced an opposite stance?
I think that the trend is for non recognised countries to recognise each other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ConIFA_World_Football_Cup
They even got their own football cup, which Catalonia would win every time I guess.
For the umteenth time Skybird, Catalonia never was a kingdom in the middle ages on pair with Castilia. :doh: It's sad that you have chosen the blue pill and to believe the romantic story you invented to justify your alignement with the catalans, when you had at hand information and sources to be better documented. But I guess it is becoming a sport to voice an opinion without having knowledge about what one is talking about, and now even Makman is joining the club. Oh well, so many experts in Spain that have never been here.
You really think that this is the point of Catalonia people Alberto ?
As i see it,they want to take their future in their hand becuase ,obviously, they don't trust the rajoy
Well I also want to take the future in my hand. The point is, the XXI century catalans are only to a 30% (If not less) the ethnic group that Skybird described and catalonia has been sistematically plundering Spain as a captive market for 300 years. In fact, they are one of the reasons of the decadence of Castilia, as they got privileges -ironically- from the Borbon kings onwards. Yes, Philip the V supressed some institutions of them (Which were never anything remotely close to a democratic parliament BTW) but what independentists usually will ignore or silence is that the Nueva Planta laws also put them ON PAR with Castilia on all counts, which was back thn the richest region. Yes, there was equalization of all the kingdom, but think for a moment: Catalonia was actually a poor region in 1714 and duplicated its population and wealth under the first Borbon king, precisely because they got all of a sudden the equalization with Castilia. And from the XIX century onwards they were heavily privileged, even with Franco (Under whom f.e. the SEAT automobile factory was put there among many others). But I wrote enough about that in the previous posts and I am repeating myself for those new to the debate, so just go some pages back and get the information.
See my point Alberto ? Maybe Catalonia people have valid reasons for not feeling deep inside as Spanish people and this ,for me, is the point that must be seriously thought from both sides and both must try bridging.
It is not as simple as that. The feeling of a part of the catalan population against the rest of Spain (Roughly 50%) has been promoted by the nationalist governments since 1978 in all possible ways, via education and TV propaganda. It is a fully artificial situation that never existed in 1978, when the current Constitution was aproved by 90% of catalans (More than in any other region of Spain), and that has been created with lies and hate.
But I guess it is inevitable that the people outside who have no clue of our history and what is going on here come to give us lessons of democracy, specially people like Skybird who has already proven his ignorance not just about Spain but about what a XXI century democracy really is (Hint: It is not just what a majority decides).
Manos, I never came here to give my opinion about the effects of the crisis and EU policies in your country, because I have not enough information about that, and probably only you guys who live there and through it do really now. Don't be now so lighthearted as to think that things in Spain are as easy as they seem outside or people like Skybird simplify them in a romantic view.
I have so to say retired and are now following the news on Danish and Swedish news program and what people write in this thread.
´cause I don't know what's the correct truth in this.
I know that a percentage of the Catalonian people want independent from Spain, I do know the government in Madrid has activated a law/article called 155. The Spanish government has also fired the entire Catalonian government including puigdemont, who has refused to step down.
That what I know about this political crisis in Spain.
Markus
makman94
10-28-17, 04:46 PM
For the umteenth time Skybird, Catalonia never was a kingdom in the middle ages on pair with Castilia. :doh: It's sad that you have chosen the blue pill and to believe the romantic story you invented to justify your alignement with the catalans, when you had at hand information and sources to be better documented. But I guess it is becoming a sport to voice an opinion without having knowledge about what one is talking about, and now even Makman is joining the club. Oh well, so many experts in Spain that have never been here.
Well I also want to take the future in my hand. The point is, the XXI century catalans are only to a 30% (If not less) the ethnic group that Skybird described and catalonia has been sistematically plundering Spain as a captive market for 300 years. In fact, they are one of the reasons of the decadence of Castilia, as they got privileges -ironically- from the Borbon kings onwards. Yes, Philip the V supressed some institutions of them (Which were never anything remotely close to a democratic parliament BTW) but what independentists usually will ignore or silence is that the Nueva Planta laws also put them ON PAR with Castilia on all counts, which was back thn the richest region. Yes, there was equalization of all the kingdom, but think for a moment: Catalonia was actually a poor region in 1714 and duplicated its population and wealth under the first Borbon king, precisely because they got all of a sudden the equalization with Castilia. And from the XIX century onwards they were heavily privileged, even with Franco (Under whom f.e. the SEAT automobile factory was put there among many others). But I wrote enough about that in the previous posts and I am repeating myself for those new to the debate, so just go some pages back and get the information.
It is not as simple as that. The feeling of a part of the catalan population against the rest of Spain (Roughly 50%) has been promoted by the nationalist governments since 1978 in all possible ways, via education and TV propaganda. It is a fully artificial situation that never existed in 1978, when the current Constitution was aproved by 90% of catalans (More than in any other region of Spain), and that has been created with lies and hate.
But I guess it is inevitable that the people outside who have no clue of our history and what is going on here come to give us lessons of democracy, specially people like Skybird who has already proven his ignorance not just about Spain but about what a XXI century democracy really is (Hint: It is not just what a majority decides).
I read about it here and there in internet and i just expressed you the sense i ,personally,had about this by the few i have read. I didn't said that things are as i said nor i appeared myself as an 'expert'.I am sure that things are much complicated and noone can get a safe picture of situation by reading 2-3 pages in internet.
i read the last page on this thread and i saw your response that i quoted,seemed to me very simplified,and,exactly becuase i knew that you are Spanish, i thought to ask personally you in order to get a valid response from the 'inside'. No intention to piss you off and i am really surprised that you saw it that way.Maybe it was better to have used pms but it is late now to fix it so ,please, accept my apollogies.
i haven't read anything else and if it happened my message to be online with Skybird's post that is not my fault and i didn't joined any 'group' as you say. I have nothing against you so stop thinking dark conspiracy senarios against you.It is really sad that you think that way for me,you should have knew what kind of person i am all these years.
Manos, I never came here to give my opinion about the effects of the crisis and EU policies in your country, because I have not enough information about that, and probably only you guys who live there and through it do really now. Don't be now so lighthearted as to think that things in Spain are as easy as they seem outside or people like Skybird simplify them in a romantic view.
you are 100% right about it.It was exactly the reason that i prefered never to post there,it was unbelievable the lies,the 'jokes' and the insults i read there about my country.
Thank you for reminding me why it is impossible to talk publickly for such things at forums
I'm sorry if it sounded that way Manos, it was not my intention. I just was a bit annoyed about having to explain things again when I had elaborated in many earlier posts. With Skybird it has got to a point where you hit the wall, you give explanations, information, etc and you find the other guy just refuses to learn something different than the pre-conceived idea he has in his mind, for which he is paying selective attention (Only notices or understands whatever info is in line with his previous idea). It is the same with the separatists, they are no longer reasoning but just acting ruled by their guts, no matter if you hosw them they are wrong in one or the other assumption (Not saying thy are wrong in everything, of course, they have their point too and I do recognize that).
From Nikita and people the like I already expected it, but not from Skybird. It has been quite dissapointing, but then again, people change ... :06:
Skybird
10-29-17, 06:31 AM
The problem I have with you, Hitman, is that you present your views as the final word of truth on things, while quite some of what you say, is different or in opposition to what the media news reports or what the public available historical timelines describe. If I see cheap rhetoric shots fired at me, implications and words put in my mouth, and things I said several times getting ignored and even treated as if I never said them, which is especially about the majority versus minority opinion in catalonia, then i take that a little bit queer for sure and I certainly refuse to base on you as the only source of "valid" information on the matter. I have limited my opinions and conclusions with severla "if true"s and "if it really woukd be so"s, only to see oyu turning words in my mouth about majprities owning minorities or the the other way around. Still you owe us a pragmatic and working alternative to this prnciple by wich we usually decide an issue in a vote: we call it majority vote, and we tend to go with the majority. I did say from beginning on that Puidgement de fatco has not br0ought a majrity of voters behind him in that poll, still you complain that I shoudl have said the minority shall own the majority - and then, in an assumption that a voting would form a majprity ofr indepenbdence, you most naturall claimed that the majoirty shall not rule the way then, and you impy by that that instead the majority has to follow the oppising will of the minority. Becasue the minority wants what you want. Thats a bit too much flexibility in your arguments, for my taste.
Both you and Nikita, you are personally heavily emotionally involved, and that is why I take what you say with caution and allow other sources to drip into my thinking as well. Historical assessments of events and eras can vary significantl, depending on the author you look at, and opinions as well. The more often I see different sources painting somehtign in the same light, the higher I think chances are that they may have gotten somethign right. This doe snot rule out that they are all wrong, and the lonely voice in the desert is right. But then you have to be prgmataic,k else you end up being deadlocked in place, unable to move at all. You make a bet, like always when you follow simple probabilities basing on majorities.
It is clear where your sympathies are, and nobody criticises you for them being what they are. But I would be thankful if you could tro to leave out these childish personal jabs at me. You do not really impress or hurt me with them, I am too long on subsim and know the game in general topics too well as if that could still happen, but I admit it is a bit tiresome.
---
News over here now says that Puidgemont will be allowed to participate in the planned upcoming elections. In the last days it was repeatedly said that independentists parties would be banned from participating. I wonder what has changed? Do they fear violent clashes if they ban them, or arrest Puidgemont?
Anyhow, the referendum had a turnout of 43%, 90% of these said they want independence, that means de factor just 40%, roughly, of those who were eligible to vote, took the time to indeed side up with Puidgemont. Thats why already before Rajoy I mentioned to have elections in parliament to have its composition updated, and then immediately let them vote on independence. On the other hand, during the vote on independence on friday, the opposition walked out, which is a silly move, but it allows this conclusion: if they would have been enough to stop the bill, they would have stayed and prevented it by voting against it, so in parliament Puidgemont obviously has had a majority for sure. Madrid obviously hopes that this majority will falter in case of new elections.
Majority decisions should be majority decisions, for pragnatic rasons, for they are this: tie breakers. In earlier times, such situations that could not be solved by reaosn and arugment and exhanging of views, were solved by duels (that is why duel pistols have a wanted lack of precision and usually n aiming aids: the element of random chance was wanted, so that not just sports training could not have an all-deciding powerful influence on the outcome). The need may be given to simply get a decision, either this or that one. It might be hurting and not wanted to get close calls like the vote on Brexit, still a majority is a mjroity, you have to accept a treshhold, else you end up with results being debated and claism rising that you need a a 66% of votes to make the majority valid, and if that is given and in favour of the unwanted result, the next one comes and demands that tis decisions weighs so heavy that only a 75% majority qualifies, and so on.
The Catalonians are two fold, ther eis the ethnic subgroup that are Catalonian by ethnicity and culture, and then ther eis just the adininstrational term, residents that moved in and now just happen to live in Catalonia, but are not Catalonian by ethnicity and culture. I do not know how much of them there are, but assuming by exmaples from other palces I assume the the thnic Catalonians by now are a minorit yin their own country, however, it is and histirically was their own country for sure. I have no real idea how to solve that dilemma. One voice says "its theirs", the other says "time moved on and their ancestory allowed it to get traded away centuries ago." I think I tend to go with the latter, but that is in violation with some key principles of libertarian and natural law. But I have decided my smyathies on many other cases like this as well. I woudl not accept the Itlains today trying to reinstall the Roman empire, Germany demanding back Eastern Prussian territories, or the Arabs demanding back the trerritoiy now called Israel (and if you go futher back in times, claims for possession of a place will constantly change anyway). So yes, best is to be pragmatic over Catalonia, and have a majority vote of ethnic and non-ethnic Catalonian residents decide. But only the residents - other parts of Spain have no claim to make here, its is the Catalonians' decision alone whether they still want to be governed by Spain, and to what degree. Their decision alone, and nobody else's, all others are outsiders in this.
you present your views as the final word of truth on things, while quite some of what you say, is different or in opposition to what the media news reports or what the public available historical timelines describe ... I certainly refuse to base on you as the only source of "valid" information on the matter
I never pretended to have the final word of truth, and some messages back I clearly stated to mapuc that there is no fundamental right or wrong in this, but instead different principles and points of view. A different matter is when you see a clear intoxication caused by providing information limited to some aspects of something, be it history or the current situation in Catalonia. I offered many links and explanations about some facts of history of Spain that have been intentionally mutilated or silenced to support the view of nationalists. And I'm talking about facts that are actually indiferent to the history of Spain, as they happened before the creation of Spain as a state. On top of that, I recommended the reading of authors as Henry Kamen, a notorious british hispanist that has been living in Barcelona for many years, and who can offer a much more impartial view of things.
Still you owe us a pragmatic and working alternative to this prnciple by wich we usually decide an issue in a vote: we call it majority vote, and we tend to go with the majority ... Majority decisions should be majority decisions, for pragnatic rasons, for they are this: tie breakers. In earlier times, such situations that could not be solved by reaosn and arugment and exhanging of views, were solved by duels (that is why duel pistols have a wanted lack of precision and usually n aiming aids: the element of random chance was wanted, so that not just sports training could not have an all-deciding powerful influence on the outcome). The need may be given to simply get a decision, either this or that one. It might be hurting and not wanted to get close calls like the vote on Brexit, still a majority is a mjroity, you have to accept a treshhold, else you end up with results being debated and claism rising that you need a a 66% of votes to make the majority valid, and if that is given and in favour of the unwanted result, the next one comes and demands that tis decisions weighs so heavy that only a 75% majority qualifies, and so on.
A democracy is not simply the rule of majority, because that would be a tyranny of the majority. We have had enough examples in history of a majority opressing a minority, or owning them as you rightfully say. A real democracy instead comprises three separate things:
A) The frame in which the whole community lives, which has to comply with certain principles that guarantee freedom and rights for minorities (So that a majority can't opress them)
B) The ordinary administration and decission that doesn't touch that frame, and where the majority certainly rules. As one can easily imagine, the majority can't modify the frame (Constitution) by a majority of 1/2+1 vote, as otherwise it would not comply with A). So you need reinforced majorities for changing basic principles of the frame, and minorities can't be exclued. Many constitutions require majorities of 2/3 or 3/5 to make changes to them, as well as referendums, and
C) A set of legal procedures that have to be respected for the decissions that affect A) or B), constituting a guarantee for everyone.
It is too easy to isolate a certain amount of people and create an artificial majority based on whatever common bonds, but that is not democracy. Neither is it to pretend to change by a simple majority the frame that affects many more people, minorities or not. I do not consider that catalans have any particular historic or actual right to create a state of their own, but even if they did they certainly would not be entitled to create it with a referendum where 1/2+1 persons vote for independence. Because that essentially implies making a substantial change in the existing situation for the majority and for the minority, and that would require:
1) The vote of all the people affected by the change (The whole Spain)
2) A qualified majority as it implies a substantial alteration of the frame
3) Following the proper procedures
What you can't do in the XXI century in the western world even if you consider that only catalan residents shall vote is to pretend that the Constitution of Spain does not exist and can be ignored. No matter if you have or have not history backing up a claim of sovereignty, you can't do it outside the frame in which you live - because in that case you are also legitimating anybody else to ignore laws and get away with it. As I already said, the spanish Constitution can be changed, but it was never promoted by nationalists even if they could have.
Populism nowadays in the whole world pushes for doing exactly that, claiming that a majority can't be held by laws or constitutions, but that is effectively the destruction of democracy instead of its effective implementation - because it entitles majorities to basically opress and rule over minorities with no limits at all. It is thus a false assumption that a majority has always and just for being such a democratic legitimation to their decissions.
The Catalonians are two fold, ther eis the ethnic subgroup that are Catalonian by ethnicity and culture, and then ther eis just the adininstrational term, residents that moved in and now just happen to live in Catalonia, but are not Catalonian by ethnicity and culture. I do not know how much of them there are, but assuming by exmaples from other palces I assume the the thnic Catalonians by now are a minorit yin their own country, however, it is and histirically was their own country for sure.
I know of no catalan nationalist that tries to support their claims based on the ethnic or racial argument (Unlike the basques) but instead in that of language and culture. So there is no real dilemma in that regard for you, as not even the affected persons have it. Funnily, that also basically discards their claim (And it is probably why you consider the ethnicality important) because what they are essentially saying is: We do not pretend to be the heirs of the former catalans, but just those who occupied their place, and found these rights here. Which, following your example about the roman empire, would be as if the modern italian roman citizens would pretend to claim it back.
News over here now says that Puidgemont will be allowed to participate in the planned upcoming elections. In the last days it was repeatedly said that independentists parties would be banned from participating. I wonder what has changed? Do they fear violent clashes if they ban them, or arrest Puidgemont?
Nothing at all has changed. You need a court decission to prevent someone from concurring to elections, be it a person or a party. The illegalization of a party can't be done based on ideology, but instead only based on it supporting the use of violence - which is what was done with the political arm of the terrorist band ETA some years ago. A separatist party was then created that did not match the requirements for illegalization, and it has been allowed to concur to elections and is in fact governing in many places.
They just dropped unfounded claims about that, in the usual separatist game of intoxicating.
ikalugin
10-29-17, 10:26 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPu8iRwZBZU
Skybird
12-22-17, 08:58 AM
Rajoy did not lose the elections in Catalonia - he got shattered into pieces. Madrid got the return bill of its imperial attitude and stubborn policy. The bid by Rajoy to get rid of the problem by scoring a pleasant election result, has completely vanished into empty air. Resistance to the Spaniards now is even more bitter than before.
Madrid played all the wrong cards and performed in the worst way possible. And this is the bill for it.
Jimbuna
12-22-17, 11:11 AM
A little progress perhaps?
Spain's Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has rebuffed calls by Catalonia's ousted leader, Carles Puigdemont, to meet for new talks outside the country.
Mr Rajoy said he would negotiate with whoever became the new head of the Catalan government but they would have to take up their post in Catalonia.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42458717
Skybird
12-22-17, 01:51 PM
Spain has withdrawn only the international warrant, not the national warrant. The moment Puidgemont lands at Barcelona International, he could be arrested. And after the past manouvers by Rajoy, Puidgemont certainly has no reason to trust Rajoy at all.
Anyhow, I think this election result and the deepening of the crisis it has brought could very well mean the beginning of the end of Rajoy. Which does not mean that solutions become easier afterwards - there seem to be even more hawkish imperialists in Madrid than him.
Another election within six months. :hmmm:
Jimbuna
12-23-17, 10:59 AM
Spain has withdrawn only the international warrant, not the national warrant. The moment Puidgemont lands at Barcelona International, he could be arrested. And after the past manouvers by Rajoy, Puidgemont certainly has no reason to trust Rajoy at all.
Anyhow, I think this election result and the deepening of the crisis it has brought could very well mean the beginning of the end of Rajoy. Which does not mean that solutions become easier afterwards - there seem to be even more hawkish imperialists in Madrid than him.
True that, this is just the beginning of what will most likely turn into a long drawn out acrimonious matter.
And now officially, TABARNIA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabarnia) has started its way to independence from Catalonia. What started as a satyrical movement is becominga serious projhect to divide Catalonia inside Spain, as Tabarnia groups areas from both Tarragona and Barcelona, provinces of Catalonia that:
1) Are economically more powerful than the poor, rural Lleida and Girona
2) Suffer economical deficit against Lleida and Girona, being actually owned and milked by those other poorer rural areas
3) Want to remain in Spain
4) Want to separate from Catalonia to create a new community inside Spain
I'm sure that Nikita and Skybird will support this claim, as those citizens are held against their will by a majority of people in the rural poor provinces, milking them. Free Tabarnia!!!
Skybird
01-17-18, 07:04 AM
If indeed the majority of the natives want it, then I will not argue against it. I may scratch my head, but its their internal affair.
You know the mantra by now, Hitman. Solidarity that gets blackmailed, is not solidarity, but blackmailing, enforced solidarity is no solidarity, but abuse. Both is subjugation by violence.
Meanwhile Rajoy showed by his statements in past weeks that he has learned nothing from 2017's experiences. Idiot.
You won't scratch your head for long if you think carefully about it. What happens is that in Catalonia there is a majority claiming for independence from Spain on the basis of being plundered, yet when you look closer too see who those are sociologically you realize it's actually the poorest people in that society, concentrated in both inner, poorer provinces (Lleida and Girona). So what they are essentially saying is, we want to plunder the rich catalans ourselves, instead of the poors from other regions of Spain doing it. Of course the reaction of the richer regions is that they don't want to be plundered and "gleichschaltet" by those poorer regions of Catalonia, and therefore the start of a movement to make a separate autonomous region.
It's again the enforced solidarity thing (On which I agree with you), only this time it's internal between catalans. The richer ones see themselves outside the EU and plundered by the independentists (The majority of whom are socialists or even anarchists, as the CUP is) and obviously are horrified at the prospect.
Skybird
01-19-18, 07:39 AM
I find it difficult to reply or to debate this with you, since over here in Germany there simply is no newscoverage and media inpt on the things you say are happening inside Catalonia. They only report on the confrontation between Catalonia and Spain and Barcelona and Madrid. I cannot assess and form an opinion on your descriptions, therefore, sorry.
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