UC3 Nautilus sunk - Peter Madsen charged with murder of journalist Kim Wall [Archive]

Oberon

08-11-17, 05:45 AM

Morts

08-11-17, 05:50 AM

Not the best news to wake up to on my extended weekend:wah:

McBeck

08-11-17, 05:57 AM

I imagine this having far reaching implications for Peter.
Not only the Sub very dear to him as living proof of what you can do if you set your mind to it, but it also served a central purpose in his space rocket launch campaign this summer...talk about double trouble...

limkol

08-11-17, 06:16 AM

Just seen the news. Glad to see that Peter is back on dry land and hope that he is OK. Must be a great shock and an even greater grief for him. But hopefully he'll bounce back in the usual Madsen style.

All the best to you Peter if you are reading this. Good luck to you.

Jimbuna

08-11-17, 06:58 AM

Dan D

08-11-17, 07:08 AM

Here's a link with pictures and confirmation nobody went down with the sub but the Police have yet to confirm the whereabouts of the female reporter.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/article166643712.html

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article167582136/Vermisstes-U-Boot-in-der-Ostsee-wieder-aufgetaucht.html

Not sunk, says German media, Dived with it
with limkol, Neal Stevens and Peter Madsen as crew in 2005 in Kopenhagen.

Onkel Neal

08-11-17, 07:53 AM

Conflicting news reports... first stuff said it sank with hatches open...

http://cphpost.dk/news/massive-rescue-effort-underway-near-copenhagen-harbour.html

UPDATE: Rescue effort halted – missing submarine found in good condition
‘Nautilus’ ran into technical problems and couldn’t return to its docks

The comprehensive search for the missing submarine ‘Nautilus’ has been ceased after it was found heading towards shore in Køge Bay.

According to the Defence, the submarine experienced some technical difficulties last night and was unable to return to dock.

I was shocked to see this in my Google News feed this morning when I went to update the Naval News. Talk about hitting close to home. :o

Schroeder

08-11-17, 07:55 AM

IIRC the Alvin submersible also sank while being towed and was recovered almost a year later just to be put right back into service. Maybe the sub can be salvaged as well.

@Oberon
Welcome back mate, I hope you'll stay this time.:salute:

Dan D

08-11-17, 07:56 AM

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article167582136/Vermisstes-U-Boot-in-der-Ostsee-wieder-aufgetaucht.html

Not sunk, says German media, Dived with it
with limkol, Neal Stevens and Peter Madsen as crew in 2005 in Kopenhagen.

Update: per 14:38 same source says u boat indeed sunk due to ballast tank problems:
https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article167582136/U-Boot-gesunken-Mit-Ballasttank-etwas-schiefgegangen.html

I am very sorry for Peter Madsen.

Onkel Neal

08-11-17, 07:57 AM

Yeah, ABC News quotes Peter as saying the same:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/danes-search-missing-private-submarine-off-copenhagen-49152539

"I am fine but sad because Nautilus went down," he told Denmark's TV2 channel. Madsen said "a minor problem with a ballast tank ... turned into a major issue" that ultimately caused the vessel — considered the largest privately-built of its kind in the world — to sink.

"It took about 30 seconds for Nautilus to sink and I couldn't close any hatches or anything. But I guess that was pretty good because I otherwise still would have been down there."

Catfish

08-11-17, 11:06 AM

So sad to hear, i hope all are well. Will look for more info.
Only good news is Oberon has surfaced.

edit: german link says the journalist left the boat a day before the sinking
"Weshalb das U-Boot sank, war zunächst unklar. „Er sagte uns, dass der Journalist, der sich auch an Bord befunden hatte, am Donnerstagabend abgeladen worden sei“, sagte Damgaard der Nachrichtenagentur AP."

mapuc

08-11-17, 11:14 AM

It was breaking news in the morning. Saw and heard about it when I changed TV-station to my News Channel.

Have been at work for some hours, I was curious to see how the situation had developed, read the news in Sweden and Denmark, and saw this on a Danish News page

(Svensk journalist forsvundet: Ubådsejer sigtet for drab(Danish)=
Swedish journalist disappeared: Submarine Owner charged with murder

(Peter Madsen er sigtet for drab på den kvinde, der forsvandt fra hans ubåd) =
Peter Madsen is charged with the killing of the woman who disappeared from his submarine.

Not what I liked to read. I hope there is some kind of misunderstanding.

Markus

Oberon

08-11-17, 02:23 PM

A marker buoy has been placed over the site of the wreck:

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:5147715/zoom:14

It's currently being guarded by the Danish navy, and I believe some SAR are in the area. Peter has been arrested from what I can tell, since unfortunately a young Swedish journalist is missing. Peter says that he'd dropped her off at Refshale island before the boat sank so hopefully she'll turn up soon.
I believe that the Nautilus isn't down that far, and I think the plan is to try and raise her on Saturday since divers haven't been able to get into her.

Danish article translated by google here:

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=da&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mynewsdesk.com%2Fdk%2Fkoebenhav ns-politi%2Fpressreleases%2Fdrabssigtelse-i-sag-om-ubaad-2105443%3Futm_source%3Drss%26utm_medium%3Drss%26ut m_campaign%3DSubscription%26utm_content%3Dcurrent_ news

Onkel Neal

08-11-17, 02:53 PM

Wow. Speechless. I'm hoping she turns up soon, for her sake and his.

Onkel Neal

08-11-17, 03:23 PM

http://gizmodo.com/swedish-journalist-missing-after-crowdfunded-submarine-1797750907

The journalist was writing a piece for Wired magazine.

No she wasn't, says Wired....

martes86

08-11-17, 04:03 PM

Holy ****.
Even my memories sink now... :(

Didn't expect to read this outside the usual community channels, but it's a sad thing to read.

Here's the YT playlist for the 2009 Subsim Meet where we sailed on the Nautilus (among other cool activities), if anyone wants a bit of a time travel moment.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLwpAC2C92wIXcdFjnl6Q_TLVLQxS5UEtv

Rhodes

08-11-17, 04:12 PM

Hope that all turn out well.

STEED

08-11-17, 04:42 PM

Inventor rescued from home-made submarine charged with murder of Swedish journalisthttp://news.sky.com/story/woman-missing-after-inventors-home-made-submarine-sinks-near-copenhagen-10983700

Onkel Neal

08-11-17, 05:40 PM

Getting info that the journalist is Kim Wall
https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20664931_10159129532710384_4193844752256266002_n.j pg?oh=4dd7bc3cf85f32df52aff66c9d227420&oe=5A36D2B5

That's not verified by any police source

Onkel Neal

08-11-17, 11:19 PM

From FB Subsim member Allan Jenkins

According to the sailor who rescued Peter Madsen -- he found the sub after just an hour's search -- the sub was afloat until he approached it. Madsen was on the conning tower. When the boat drew nearer, Madsen went below, the sub began sinking quickly, Madsen returned to the conning tower and jumped in the water. Very calmly.

Madsen claims he dropped the journalist off at a restaurant in Copenhagen harbor. The owner of the restaurant says, though, the restaurant was closed at the time of the drop off. However, he has security tapes from all around the restaurant, and he voluntarily gave them to the police.

The coast guard knows the position of the sub and are preparing to bring it in. It sank in seven meters of water.

Madsen was arrested and charged with murder just hours after the rescue, and he is to be arraigned tomorrow (Saturday) morning.

Carotio

08-12-17, 07:01 AM

Getting info that the journalist is Kim Wall
That's not verified by any police source

It is more or less now:
http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/kim-isabel-forsvundet-i-ubaadsdrama/6775956
http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/nu-taler-forsvundne-kims-familie-vi-haaber-inderligt-hun-bliver-fundet/6776125

Friends and family started to make search posts for her at Facebook, and well, then the police can't keep it a secret anymore. I don't get it either why they wanted to keep her identity secret, if they wanted the population to look for her.
Anyway, it's a sad story and also a very strange story. The biggest problem for Peter Madsen is that she hasn't turned up, and the longer it lasts until she turns up, the more suspicious it is. If he has set her off at Refshaleøen, as he said, why has noone seen her and why hasn't she contacted her family, boyfriend etc.? Could something bad have happend to her after PM set her off? That's possible too, but it's just speculations until she is found, dead or alive. Hopefully, she'll turn up alive, and soon...

Carotio

08-12-17, 07:31 AM

http://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/tidligere-efterforskningsleder-nu-skal-forklaring-om-ubaads-ballasttank-tjekkes

At this moment, the authorities are working on getting the Nautilus up, so they can verify the statement from PM about the problem with the ballast tank, and also to check for any track for a possible crime, though any track is most likely damaged by the time being in saltwater, so the police won't hurry to get the sub up, but they will get it up.
The article also states that the police are looking for eye witness and video surveillance from the area. Plus any details from telephone companies regarding her phone connection to the phone masts in order to make a map of her whereabouts.
They're checking his clothes for any DNA, and he is supposed to be in court right now, as the court sessions was supposed to start at 14.00 Danish time (+1 GMT).

Carotio

08-12-17, 09:40 AM

UC3 Nautilus has surfaced:
http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/ubaad-haevet-nu-skal-politiet-lede-efter-drabsspor/6776260

The police will now try to get it up on land and empty the salt water out of it.

Tbc....

Carotio

08-12-17, 10:23 AM

Update

http://www.bt.dk/krimi/lige-nu-raket-madsen-faengslet-for-uagtsomt-manddrab

Behind closed doors in the court, the charge has been changed from murder to manslaughter. According to this article, Peter Madsen has to stay jailed for the next 24 days.
The court decided to keep the doors closed in order to facilitate the police investigation and not to hurt the feelings of the family of Kim Wall. Peter Madsen had expressed willingness to make his statement with the doors open, but the judge decided not to follow his wishes.

Tbc...

Onkel Neal

08-12-17, 06:00 PM

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/danish-sunken-submarine-inventor-peter-madsen-detained-over-missing-swedish-journalist-kim-wall-a3610406.html

Judge Kari Soerensen announced the ruling after a two-hour custody hearing held behind closed doors.

Madsen's defence lawyer, Bettina Hald Engmark, said her client maintains he is innocent.

Ms Hald Engmark said Madsen is "willing to cooperate" and has not decided whether to appeal the detention ruling.

Before the hearing was closed, the courtroom was packed with Danish and Swedish reporters and the 46-year-old Madsen's relatives.

Prosecutor Louise Pedersen said Madsen faces the preliminary manslaughter charge "for having killed in an unknown way and in an unknown place Kim Isabell Frerika Wall, of Sweden, sometime after Thursday, 5pm."

Amazing how quickly the prosecutor moved to press charges. It implies they feel strongly that Peter is lying and guilty. I hope it turns out she is ok, so Peter can show he was innocent; strange how she has not made an appearance though.

The General

08-13-17, 04:47 AM

Police reveal Kim Wall isn't in the submarine.

http://www.bt.dk/krimi/lige-nu-politiet-afsloerer-kims-lig-ligger-ikke-i-ubaaden

Jimbuna

08-13-17, 06:39 AM

Well, that's certainly a relief but the story is now being aired on UK news channels and something just doesn't appear right, especially how fast the authorities are raising serious concerns.

Hope this all ends well.

Rockin Robbins

08-13-17, 07:49 AM

From FB Subsim member Allan Jenkins
Quote:
According to the sailor who rescued Peter Madsen -- he found the sub after just an hour's search -- the sub was afloat until he approached it. Madsen was on the conning tower. When the boat drew nearer, Madsen went below, the sub began sinking quickly, Madsen returned to the conning tower and jumped in the water. Very calmly.
That's a very bad sign. But why would he scuttle the boat as they approached in such an obvious manner? Why would he lie about her being on the boat when upon resurfacing the boat the truth will be obvious. For that matter the claim of ballast tank problems will be obvious too.

Logic says he's smart enough to know all that is true and therefore is likely telling the truth. Reality is much stranger than logic. Staying tuned on this one and hoping for the best.

@Carotio and @Martes--great to see both of you!

Carotio

08-13-17, 08:50 AM

Some different articles and the main content of those...

https://www.b.dk/nationalt/politi-om-ubaadsforlis-det-virker-som-en-bevidst-handling
http://nyheder.tv2.dk/krimi/2017-08-13-ingen-personer-fundet-i-ubaad-politiet-leder-stadig-efter-forsvundet-kvinde
http://www.bt.dk/krimi/6-pointer-fra-pressemoedet-politiet-afsloerer-nye-oplysninger-om-ubaadsmysteriet
http://www.bt.dk/krimi/svensk-ekspert-om-det-bizarre-mysterium-det-er-tydeligt-politiet-har-noget-paa-ham

The police says that it seems to be a deliberate act of scuttling the boat.
The woman, Kim Wall, wasn't found in the boat, neither dead or alive, and now they're making a search in the coastal area around Copenhagen. It also seems that Peter has changed his explanations about setting KW off, but it doesn't say what the new story is. But the changed story was apparently the explanation why the charge was changed from murder to unintended manslaughter. He has to stay in the hands of the police for now until september 5th, while the police investigate. They're working for two scenarios: 1) that she is somewhere in the water or 2) that she is somewhere in Copenhagen on land. They hope to find her alive, but assume that she is dead somewhere. An expert claims that the police must have "something on him" for them to keep him. The police hasn't commented on that.

Tbc....

Carotio

08-13-17, 03:20 PM

2 more articles:

http://www.bt.dk/krimi/nye-oplysninger-i-ubaadssagen-var-taet-paa-at-kollidere-med-fragtskib
http://www.bt.dk/krimi/klar-laest-tidligere-efterforsker-om-peter-madsens-aendrede-forklaring-det-er

A witness from a cargo ship has stated that the cargo ship almost had a collision the night between thursday and friday with the sub, because Nautilus was sailing with the lights turned off, which is irregular behaviour at sea. Nautilus was seen sailing towards Denmark in the open waters of the Sound which is filled with traffic.
To me it sounds like it was in Flintrenden at the east, which you can see on this map:
http://www.bigfish.dk/images/map_full.jpg

The second article is about expert opinion as to the changed explanation from PM. He suggests that the lawyer of PM has probably pursuaded PM to change the explanation because the original would be quickly investigated by the police.

Tbc....

em2nought

08-13-17, 03:32 PM

The moral of this story will probably turn out to be "Never call a guy's submarine 'tiny'." :D

Tchocky

08-13-17, 04:41 PM

The moral of this story will probably turn out to be "Never call a guy's submarine 'tiny'." :D

Hey.

Not funny.

Carotio

08-13-17, 08:12 PM

Hey.

Not funny.

Agree, this is not a situation to make fun of. I have met PM a couple of times several years ago now and found him as a cool guy. If something has happend, and he is guilty, then it is a sad development and will be a sad outcome and legacy for him, but even more it is very very sad for Kim Wall and her relatives. If she is dead in the sub and thrown overbord somewhere, that is not an acceptable way to leave this earth.

Put that aside, here is yet another article:
http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/tidligere-drabsefterforsker-om-ubaadsmysteriet-liget-er-den-vigtigste-brik/6777235

A former crime research officer has commented on the situation. He presumes that PM has dumped the body somewhere in the Sound or Køge Bugt south of Copenhagen. Unless PM will cooperate, the police can only speculate his whereabouts during that night, since the sub can go pretty far during those many hours. Normally, you're innocent untill proven guilty. The research officer thus presumes that the police must have something which reveals that PM must have somehting to do with her dissapearance. There was apparently some communication between the woman and her boyfriend that evening, which maybe is a reason for the police to keep him. The police is also searching for any DNA-evidence in the sub, probably because there might be a sexual motive for a crime. The sexual motive is probably also the reason why the court decided to close the doors saturday, because they didn't want to hurt the feelings of the relatives of KW.

Mr Quatro

08-13-17, 08:50 PM

Good reporting Carotio you have a certain innocence about you. Yes we all hope it turns out well for Peter Madsen. After that DDG and the freighter accident I fear jumping to conclusions anymore :o

http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/64/12/41/13674580/7/920x920.jpg

This is a April 30 2008 file photo of submarine owner Peter Madsen

Rockstar

08-13-17, 08:52 PM

Assuming the worst, there could have been a bloody mess inside the boat which may be a reason he opened it up to the sea.

Mr Quatro

08-13-17, 08:58 PM

If this story is true then it looks very bad for PM :yep:

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/aug/13/submarine-maker-held-as-search-for-kim-wall-continues

Kristian Isbak, who had responded to the navy’s call to help locate the ship, sailed out immediately Friday and saw Madsen standing wearing his trademark military fatigues in the submarine’s tower while it was still afloat.

“He then climbed down inside the submarine and there was then some kind of air flow coming up and the submarine started to sink,” Isbak said. “[He] came up again and stayed in the tower until water came into it”, before swimming to a nearby boat as the submarine sank, he added.

Madsen “told us he had technical problems” to explain why the submarine failed to respond to radio contact, Damgaard said.

Onkel Neal

08-13-17, 09:39 PM

Assuming the worst, there could have been a bloody mess inside the boat which may be a reason he opened it up to the sea.

Oh wow. Yeah, possibly.

The police must definitely have something on Peter Madsen, since they quickly hurried to arrest him.

It believes the Swedish criminologist Jerzy Sarnecki, who Aftonbladet has spoken to.

"Obviously, they have something on him," he says to the newspaper.

I thought the same. The police arrested him almost immediately, so they must have some evidence to base that on.

https://bt.bmcdn.dk/media/cache/resolve/image_1240/image/104/1040658/18165493-peter-madsen-uc3-nautilus.jpg

mapuc

08-14-17, 12:13 PM

The Danish Police has an appeal:

The police are calling for both people who have been on tour with Peter Madsen in his submarine and who have seen the submarine

The trip we toke, toke about 10 minutes and I can't remember what he did or didn't. I remember we dived for some minutes while crossing the canal in Copenhagen.

Markus

The General

08-14-17, 01:05 PM

Just because the guy used crowd-funding, it doesn't mean he wanted to share with the crowd.

People who are extremely gifted in one area, often lack development in other areas.

That said, I hope this girl turns up, alive and well, but unless she jumped on a private jet to outer-Mongolia, without telling anyone, it's not looking good.

I suspect there was an accident and through fear of having his beloved sub taken away, he attempted to cover it up. I hope I'm wrong.

McBeck

08-14-17, 03:21 PM

Stories are now surfacing that friends of the reported are saying that she can be fairly aggressive. Pair that with the fact that the judge ordered closed hearings to ensure that her relatives would not be offended by what would be disclosed tells a story that she has played a part in this whole mess.

I may be know Peter, but I am still trying my very best to stay neutral.
That being said, Peter is not a violent guy...

Catfish

08-15-17, 01:21 AM

Innocent, until something else is proven. :yep:

em2nought

08-15-17, 01:35 AM

It really is a swell looking little boat. :cry:

Onkel Neal

08-15-17, 06:25 AM

One of the last images from Ms. Wall's trip
https://d3p157427w54jq.cloudfront.net/uploads/2017/08/97315427_mediaitem97315426-637x371.jpg

https://www.pedestrian.tv/news/danish-submarine-missing/

AVGWarhawk

08-15-17, 10:58 AM

Really odd situation this one.

McBeck

08-15-17, 11:19 AM

Very. The forensic evidence collection from the sub has been completed, but they are not making any statements...

McBeck

08-15-17, 11:20 AM

BTW the police a looking to talk to people who has sailed on the sub.
I have called in, stating I sailed with a group of people in September 2009. That would cover the Subsim meeting...

Carotio

08-15-17, 06:28 PM

BTW the police a looking to talk to people who has sailed on the sub.
I have called in, stating I sailed with a group of people in September 2009. That would cover the Subsim meeting...

I did the same, though I wrote a mail about it instead of calling. And I added that there are videoclips on youtube about it.
However, we were only sailing inside the harbour, and I think they're probably more interested in knowing if there were some favorite places in the Sound, where he took guests for a ride.

martes86

08-17-17, 09:21 AM

@Carotio and @Martes--great to see both of you!

Likewise! I am a bit inactive around here, but figured I could at least say hi. Too bad the thing that's lured me back is this sad incident.

I did the same, though I wrote a mail about it instead of calling. And I added that there are videoclips on youtube about it.
However, we were only sailing inside the harbour, and I think they're probably more interested in knowing if there were some favorite places in the Sound, where he took guests for a ride.

Concerning that, feel free to point them towards my videos. Other than that, I can't really help that much, the only time I've ever seen Peter are those 2 days of the meet and I'm probably too biased considering how blown away I was for the whole experience, not the best judge of character given the severity of the investigation.

Dan D

08-17-17, 10:37 AM

http://m.kn-online.de/News/Aktuelle-Nachrichten-Schleswig-Holstein/Nachrichten-Norddeutschland/U-Boot-Drama-Das-letzte-Foto-schoss-ein-Kieler#Galerie

Says: Copenhagen Police found out sinking of sub caused intentionally. German tourist took last known pic showing 2 persons aboard ( in the article), Location where picture was taken is between the point where PM claimed he dropped her off and the location where the sub sank (map in the article)

McBeck

08-17-17, 01:19 PM

McBeck

08-17-17, 01:26 PM

There has been a release to the news about what Peter stated from he entered port and until the Police took over :

https://translate.google.dk/translate?hl=da&sl=da&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnyheder.tv2.dk%2F2017-08-17-det-ved-vi-om-peter-madsens-forklaring-lige-nu

McBeck

08-17-17, 02:49 PM

Likewise! I am a bit inactive around here, but figured I could at least say hi. Too bad the thing that's lured me back is this sad incident.

Concerning that, feel free to point them towards my videos. Other than that, I can't really help that much, the only time I've ever seen Peter are those 2 days of the meet and I'm probably too biased considering how blown away I was for the whole experience, not the best judge of character given the severity of the investigation.
Your videoes were just used in the news!

martes86

08-17-17, 05:53 PM

Your videoes were just used in the news!

Yep! :oops:

If anyone is subscribed to TV2, I think you'd see the story here: https://play.tv2.dk/programmer/magasiner/serier/station-2/ubaaden-og-den-svenske-kvinde-138850/

McBeck

08-21-17, 04:02 AM

The police has lifted part of the closed door.
This is part of what they have released:
"Sigtede has told the police and in court explained that an accident has occurred on board the submarine which has caused Kim Wall's death and that he subsequently buried her at sea in a not defined place in Køge Bay. The Copenhagen Police may additionally state that the sentence for killing is maintained. Further information on the investigation of the case will not be available as it is still covered by the door closure"

Schroeder

08-21-17, 04:18 AM

That doesn't make sense. If I kill someone by accident I don't dump the body and tell people that she went ashore at some location.:-?

Catfish

08-21-17, 04:18 AM

What or who is "Sigtede" ?

... Sigtede has told the police and in court explained that an accident has occurred on board the submarine which has caused Kim Wall's death and that he subsequently buried her at sea in a not defined place in Køge Bay. ...

If that is true (and i doubt it), what was he thinking? Sounds like nonsense to me.

Von Due

08-21-17, 04:20 AM

What or who is "Sigtede" ?

Sigtede = defendant.

Catfish

08-21-17, 04:28 AM

Thanks @von Due (and McBeck for keeping us informed).

As Schroeder wrote,
1. telling different stories does not sound good
2. you do not simpy bury someone if there was an accident. Not at sea or elsewhere.

This does not make sense. :o

Jimbuna

08-21-17, 04:44 AM

Certainly doesn't look good :nope:

Onkel Neal

08-21-17, 06:10 AM

That doesn't make sense. If I kill someone by accident I don't dump the body and tell people that she went ashore at some location.:-?

You are right.

Someone will say he panicked, and acted irrationally. I suppose that is possible, and I would love to give him the benefit of the doubt. But an "accident" is so far fetched and hard to believe now. Peter has used up all the trust he is allowed. It is more likely he is telling the police there was an accident to cover up a crime. We may never know why or how he killed her, but as you said, an innocent person would not ditch a woman's body into the bay when they were only miles away from shore, and then sink their one of a kind submarine and tell the police he let her off at an island.

Rip

08-21-17, 06:25 AM

Vannevar

08-21-17, 06:59 AM

The BBC are also covering the story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40999566) , but fairly briefly.

Carotio

08-21-17, 08:19 AM

You are right.

Someone will say he panicked, and acted irrationally. I suppose that is possible, and I would love to give him the benefit of the doubt. But an "accident" is so far fetched and hard to believe now. Peter has used up all the trust he is allowed. It is more likely he is telling the police there was an accident to cover up a crime. We may never know why or how he killed her, but as you said, an innocent person would not ditch a woman's body into the bay when they were only miles away from shore, and then sink their one of a kind submarine and tell the police he let her off at an island.

I agree with you. There may have been an accident. She could have fallen from the tower, and then he panicked seeing her dead. Or another scenario, where she may have died accidently. By even then, there is no excuse as not to call for help on the radio and get the police out on the water. That he buried her at sea and scuttled the boat made his case extremely bad. Basically, he screwed up the situation somehow.

I hope that they will find the body of KW, so it may reveal some truth to this story. But Køge Bugt, Øresund and the Baltic Sea is a big place to look for a dead body, when you don't know where to look since the water could have brought her far away. A sad story.....

AVGWarhawk

08-21-17, 11:41 AM

This took a really odd turn.

mapuc

08-21-17, 12:21 PM

A civilian have found dead woman Near Amager. the Police has locked down the area and can not yet say if it is the missing Swedish Journalist.

Markus

Carotio

08-21-17, 12:57 PM

A civilian have found dead woman Near Amager. the Police has locked down the area and can not yet say if it is the missing Swedish Journalist.

Markus

Just to add a link to an article about it.
http://www.bt.dk/krimi/lige-nu-kvinde-lig-fundet-i-vandet-politi-afspaerrer-stort-omraade-paa-amager

Let's see, if it's her... It will certainly make some sort of closure here and now for the family and relative of KW. And it can provide some fact about the events that infamous night.

Carotio

08-21-17, 01:35 PM

http://www.bt.dk/krimi/kvinde-lig-fundet-i-vandet-ved-amager-foelg-pressebriefing-her

The story about that female body just got more grotesque. It seems that it's only the torso, meaning the body has no head, arms and legs. The police cannot comment whether it's KW or another woman yet...

I really don't know if I hope it's KW or another victim. If it's KW, then there are just no excuse for PM. Really, none whatsoever..... :o

AVGWarhawk

08-21-17, 01:46 PM

What the.....

mapuc

08-21-17, 01:56 PM

AVGWarhawk

08-21-17, 02:10 PM

None of it looks terrible good.

rogorogo

08-21-17, 02:36 PM

remind this community that... if... things turn out to be ugly.... very ugly....
this then would be the second time a very respected/active/or just actively respected member of this community suddenly turns out to be involved into something extremely... out of order in RL...

No obvious line about submarines and what they can do to you... because.. this is just very very very bad....

mapuc

08-21-17, 03:11 PM

Forgot to tell you that I have taken a Neutral standpoint.
To be honest I had hope and still have that he is somehow innocent of having killed her in cold blood. Something have happened on board, but what ? This is what our police are here for, to find out what have happened those dramatic hours on Peters Sub that evening and night or try to find out.

For me it was a great thing to meet this person, who was about to realise a dream, which I had dreamed of since my childhood and a couple years in my youth-Being an astronaut, for some minutes.

And he had a home build sub this didn't make the meeting less interesting at all.

Markus

Gargamel

08-21-17, 03:40 PM

So for those that went on it, is there somewhere onboard that seems more likely to cause an accidental death? Is there like a long drop coming down from the bridge if you lose handhold on the railing or something?

Even then his reactions don't make sense. It seems more plausible that whatever happened was something where he believed he would be found negligent in her death.

I did not go on the vessel, but having spent many years in EMS, I can attest there are many ways to die or be injured that you cannot imagine without serious inebriation.

I have used the Jaws of Life on a Lazy Boy recliner.

One of the case studies we had to do in school was for a lady who was on an exercise bike and the seat broke, with the post impaling her quite deeply.

Simple incidents or mundane things can be become life threatening when applied in the right way.

That said, the rest of the story is bizarre. You only bury at sea if there is no chance of returning the body to shore for a proper burial.

If it truly was an accident, then all you have to do is radio for help and there might be an investigation, but accidents usually get cleared. A slap on the wrist for negligence is nothing compared to a murder sentence.

Carotio

08-21-17, 04:04 PM

This is the Danish law about crime:
https://www.retsinformation.dk/Forms/R0710.aspx?id=192080

§ 139. Den, som krænker gravfreden eller gør sig skyldig i usømmelig behandling af lig, straffes med bøde eller fængsel indtil 6 måneder.

Basically, when the body is found, and if the police cannot prove that it was intensional (murder) or prove that she died because of an unintended behaviour (manslaughter), then he can - to my knowledge - only be accused of misshandling a dead body in a bad manner, for which the penalty will be a maximum of 6 months in jail.
Burying her body at sea, which clearly was unnecessary due to the short distance to land, he probably faces at least the 6 months.
Now, the coming days of investigation from the police will then hopefully tell us more about the truth: what really happend.

IF the body found today, which only is a torso, proves to be KW, then that fact and the fact that Nautilus went down doesn't make it look good for PM.

This article:
https://www.information.dk/telegram/2017/08/kvindelig-uden-hoved-ben-fundet-ved-amager?lst_frnt
tells us that this body has been in the water for several days, so we'll have to wait several days too for the optopsy, where they investigate DNA and whatever they search for.

Well, to be continued...

Sailor Steve

08-21-17, 04:40 PM

Before we drag him out of his hideout and hang him in the nearest tree I say-lets wait for the police and the "Quincy(*)" rapport.

* Was just sitting here and couldn't find the word I needed, Not even in Danish or Swedish, ´cause I could have used translate if I could. I knew that this Jack Klugman played such a role.

Markus
The English word is "pathology", specifically "forensic pathology". Pathology is the study of diseases, and Forensic Pathology is the study of the cause of a death. The word for Quincy's job is "Coroner", which is a Forensic Pathologist employed by the police for just such a job.

Onkel Neal

08-21-17, 04:43 PM

Do dead people wash up in Copenhagen often?

mapuc

08-21-17, 04:49 PM

The English word is "pathology", specifically "forensic pathology". Pathology is the study of diseases, and Forensic Pathology is the study of the cause of a death. The word for Quincy's job is "Coroner", which is a Forensic Pathologist employed by the police for just such a job.

Thank you Steve and Aktungbby

It was the word Coroner I was looking for, ´cause it is the Forensic Pathologist that works for the Danish police in Copenhagen. I also know what it is called in Danish now- Retsmediciner
=(A Coroner/retsmediciner is a doctor working with clinical forensic medicine and Forensic)

Markus

Onkel Neal

08-21-17, 06:33 PM

Can you please stay in topic?

Jimbuna

08-22-17, 04:13 AM

The BBC take on current developments:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41007410

Not looking good at all :nope:

Morts

08-22-17, 05:18 AM

Do dead people wash up in Copenhagen often?
It's rare enough that this is almost certainly her.
But untill she is identified, there is a chance that it isnt her.

Catfish

08-22-17, 05:31 AM

We have been anchoring near Moen's Klint (the second protruding languet south of Kopenhagen, protruding from the west) overnight some years ago, until storm and swell forced us to get away and ride it out at 2 a.m.
Wind and current can be quite strong there, but i doubt that she would have been found at the place mentioned.

Does not look good, but still – innocent until his guilt is really proven.

Rockstar

08-22-17, 08:34 AM

Assuming worst case senarion. If he was using tools like a saw to dismember a body Id bet money evidence is still attached to the teeth of the blade.

Onkel Neal

08-22-17, 09:09 AM

It's rare enough that this is almost certainly her.
But untill she is identified, there is a chance that it isnt her.
Either way, this is a tragedy twice over.

Rockstar

08-22-17, 09:39 AM

But if there was a relationship past or present people are capable of doing crazy things out of jealousy couple tha with psycological profiles and common traits of powerful men such as CEO and others driven to achieve. She may have threatened a poor review, who knows. Why did her boyfriend feel concerned and report her missing? I think theres more to this than just covering up a bad accident. Especially if a dismembered body is involved.

Also Danish law may not be much different than U.S. law. Though you may not be licensed to collect compensation and operate as a passenger vessel. there's nothing illegal with having a 'guest' aboard.

https://saboteur365.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/and-the-plot-thickens.jpg

Carotio

08-22-17, 10:03 AM

http://www.bt.dk/krimi/drabschef-om-mystisk-kvinde-lig-paa-amager-det-kan-vaere-kim-wall-hoved-arme-og-ben
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeM9bJWnH_vB_9WswhGzn7A

The body was cut up on purpose, police has just confirmed. Nothing says that the body is KW, but neither that it cannot be her. So we have to wait for DNA. Result will be known late this evening or tomorrow.

Red October1984

08-22-17, 10:32 AM

This has become quite the story. Whatever the outcome, this has been a ride. :doh:

Rockstar

08-22-17, 11:07 AM

No doubt, things are much different when you actually know and met the suspect. Its always the same 'he was such nice guy, quiet, never bothered anyone', then the shock and dismay.

Another worst case senario. he lured her out there.

Jimbuna

08-22-17, 11:37 AM

Should it become proven the body is who it is suspected to be and the dismemberment was intentional during a moment of panic or for whatever other reason or consideration anyone may choose to believe, the balance of probabilities/beyond reasonable doubt would be extremely hard to defend.

Heaven knows it is hard enough for those who know and have met him but turn the tables and imagine for a moment that it is your daughter that is missing.

Onkel Neal

08-22-17, 12:26 PM

I won't accept that panic can lead to dismemberment a human body. The panic theory is out the window.

I agree, my sympathies go out to the family. This is a horrible crime.

Catfish

08-22-17, 12:33 PM

It does not have to be her, can be a the victim of someone else.
I take it the police can exclude it was a ship's prop which might have done that(?)

Jimbuna

08-22-17, 12:40 PM

I won't accept that panic can lead to dismemberment a human body. The panic theory is out the window.

I agree, my sympathies go out to the family. This is a horrible crime.

Agreed :yep:

It does not have to be her, can be a the victim of someone else.
I take it the police can exclude it was a ship's prop which might have done that(?)

It has already been published that that fact has been established.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41016881

Tinkering

08-22-17, 01:57 PM

Agreed :yep:

It has already been published that that fact has been established.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41016881

First sentence of article cited: "...it is still too early to say...."

Jimbuna

08-22-17, 02:13 PM

First sentence of article cited: "...it is still too early to say...."

I'd suggest you read the first sentence in #91 again...

Should it become proven the body is who it is suspected to be

em2nought

08-22-17, 02:59 PM

It can be scary being the friend of someone who has done something really, really, really bad, and it's really easy to accidentally place yourself in a jackpot. I'd say if I knew this guy I'd make sure "not to delete" any footage I had, emails with him, links, browser history, the works. Even innocently deleting something with no intent to hide anything could land you in a jackpot, take it firsthand from me.

Gargamel

08-22-17, 05:55 PM

I won't accept that panic can lead to dismemberment a human body. The panic theory is out the window.

I agree, my sympathies go out to the family. This is a horrible crime.

When he 'buried her at sea', he may have still been under way, and she may have been pulled into the prop. Or when he started back up, she was then pulled in. Props can do massive damage to the human body.

Reece

08-22-17, 07:45 PM

How could someone like PM who seemed to be a nice guy dismember somebody? and for what purpose/to what end? :hmmm:
This is a weird case!!!:doh:

AVGWarhawk

08-22-17, 08:33 PM

This will not turn out well for the party involved.

Condolences to the family of the young lady.

Mr Quatro

08-22-17, 09:15 PM

When he 'buried her at sea', he may have still been under way, and she may have been pulled into the prop. Or when he started back up, she was then pulled in. Props can do massive damage to the human body.

I agree this is a way a detective would think. Plus what Reece said :yep:

Reece said: "How could someone like PM who seemed to be a nice guy dismember somebody? and for what purpose/to what end?"

This is a weird case!!!

AVGWarhawk

08-22-17, 09:24 PM

How could someone like PM who seemed to be a nice guy dismember somebody? and for what purpose/to what end? :hmmm:
This is a weird case!!!:doh:

There has been and will be nice guys who do not nice things.

AVGWarhawk

08-22-17, 09:28 PM

When he 'buried her at sea', he may have still been under way, and she may have been pulled into the prop. Or when he started back up, she was then pulled in. Props can do massive damage to the human body.

Wishful thinking. Under way? It was an afternoon cruise in the bay. Not a 40 day patrol in the shipping lanes.

Sailor Steve

08-23-17, 12:11 AM

When he 'buried her at sea', he may have still been under way, and she may have been pulled into the prop. Or when he started back up, she was then pulled in. Props can do massive damage to the human body.
Yes they can, but they aren't selective. Unlikely it would slice off the head and limbs and leave the torso intact.

Sailor Steve

08-23-17, 12:16 AM

And no sooner do I post that then this article turns up. Definitely intentional. But it may still not be her. Unlikely that it's not, though.
https://www.thelocal.dk/20170822/kim-wall-submarine-denmark-sweden-limbs-removed-deliberately-from-copenhagen-body-police

bracer

08-23-17, 12:34 AM

The Dna matches according to the danish police...

https://twitter.com/KobenhavnPoliti/status/900219850886443008

Schroeder

08-23-17, 02:20 AM

Game over. There is no excuse for that anymore.:nope:

Catfish

08-23-17, 02:49 AM

I read that finger prints and DNA are not necessarily unique to one person, however here the probability of such a case is nearly zero.

Seems pretty obvious now. One can only speculate what happened before her death :nope:
How could he think he would get away with it. I guess this was not planned, but how did he think to get away with such obvious lies.. I wonder if he makes a confession.

Poor family, and Kim Wall. Rest in peace.

em2nought

08-23-17, 03:21 AM

I was moving a heavy, heavy sheet of soaking pressure treated plywood today, and I now know why he chopped her up. He chopped her up so he could more easily throw her out of the control tower. I think she died by accident, slipped going down a ladder or something, and he freaked out in a panic.

Catfish

08-23-17, 03:43 AM

^ Panic? All limbs and the head, and then an iron weight to keep it submerged.. possible of course.
There can be all kinds of psychological things as well: he assaulted her and she tried to defend and all that. Or she threatened to write something bad about him without anything explicit happening, and so he killed her in fury. I do not think it was planned, too implausible lying.
All very ugly.
The only thing that can help him is to tell or confess it all, if behind closed doors.

Schroeder

08-23-17, 03:50 AM

I was moving a heavy, heavy sheet of soaking pressure treated plywood today, and I now know why he chopped her up. He chopped her up so he could more easily throw her out of the control tower.
No need to cut the head off for that.:-?
Besides even if he had panicked, he had plenty of time tell the authorities the truth in the meantime.

Mr Quatro

08-23-17, 04:16 AM

It must be hard to kill someone and then chop them up and throw them overboard. If he has any heart and soul left he will confess the entire mess and ask the court for mercy.

Sooner or later men like this break down :yep:

Jimbuna

08-23-17, 05:03 AM

Jimbuna

08-23-17, 05:04 AM

It must be hard to kill someone and then chop them up and throw them overboard. If he has any heart and soul left he will confess the entire mess and ask the court for mercy.

Hopefully that will be the case.

Sooner or later men like this break down :yep:

Usually but not always. I once met Peter Sutcliffe.

A headless torso found in waters off Denmark has been identified as missing Swedish journalist Kim Wall, Danish police say.
DNA from the torso matched that from Ms Wall's hairbrush and toothbrush.
Chief investigator Jens Moller Jensen said that the torso had been weighted down with metal in an apparent attempt to stop it floating.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41021223

Dr.Sid

08-23-17, 05:35 AM

All murderers are normal people, until they at one single moment, become murderers. Even psychologist who met hundreds of murderers wont be able to tell who will become one in most cases.

Carotio

08-23-17, 05:44 AM

http://nyheder.tv2.dk/krimi/2017-08-23-kim-walls-mor-modtog-nyheden-med-graenseloes-sorg-og-forfaerdelse
http://nyheder.tv2.dk/krimi/2017-08-23-peter-madsens-forsvarer-han-ser-positivt-paa-at-kim-wall-nu-er-fundet

The police has secured DNA from the home of KW, and there is a match between that DNA and the torso, plus they have found dried blood in Nautilus, which also match the DNA from KW.
So no doubt about it. She died onboard, and he cut her up in pieces. He has made holes in the torso plus attached metal, so the body would stay down on the seafloor. The attorney of PM has stated that PM has expressed relief that she has been found.
The mother of KW has made a statement on facebook saying that it's with horror and sorrow that the family has received the news of her death. She focuses her message on KW, and how wonderful a person she was, and how wonderful KW worked to make the world a better place. She doesn't mention any hate or anything like that towards PM.

My personal comment about the situation sofar is:
Well, I'm really wondering why PM hasn't told the police that they should be looking for a torso/cut-up body. If he had told that, I'm sure the public would have been told to look for body parts. So his relief, well, it ain't worth anything. I think that he hoped the body wouldn't be found. Why would he otherwise attach heavy metal to the body to keep it down?
Now, it's up to the police to investigate whether or not it was an accident, or if he killed her or not. No matter what, he has dealt with the body in such a bad manner that he faces up to 6 months in jail for that alone.
We have had trials before where manslaughter has been the result because of many pieces of circumstantial evidence. Plus he has lied about her whereabouts. So has he lied too about her death being an accident? It doesn't look good for him.
Also several of his sponsors have decided to step back and leave his space project. Even if he escapes a long prison sentence and only go to jail for 6 months, then he will forever be persona non grata.
Having met him at the subsim meet 2009, I really liked him and his projects back then. But this act is in my world really hard to forgive. You can argue with a person over unimportant stuff, and they go apart. But such an outcome to cut up a body and throw it overboard at sea - that's just too much. :nope:

Reece

08-23-17, 06:20 AM

Whether it was an accident or murder it happened on board, I'd guess the body weight was too much for him to lift up through the hatch so he cut her up into more manageable pieces. Naturally this would have made a bloody mess in the sub so the easiest way to clean up was to scuttle it.:hmmm:
Sorry if my description is too descriptive.:oops:
Nasty either way!!!:timeout:

My heart goes out to her loved ones, may she rest in peace.:wah:

Rip

08-23-17, 06:56 AM

If I were on the jury he would never get out. No excuse for what we already know he has done, nothing can justify that.

He was a monster lurking amongst us, we just have to face that.

Such a beautiful and energetic lady, tragic.

RIP Kim.

horsa

08-23-17, 07:05 AM

Whatever the final explanation (and there may never be a complete one) this is horrific. My thoughts go out to Kim Wall's friends and family.

Rockstar

08-23-17, 07:35 AM

Red October1984

08-23-17, 10:26 AM

Jesus. Whether he did it on purpose or out of fear/panic, this is an unfortunate and avoidable event that no family should have to go through.

I have never met PM, but I've seen many speak highly of him through the years. But as it's been said, you never know what some turn out to be.

As much as we're ready to convict however, (and i'm not sure how Danish law works) there still must be a trial and conviction. If he did, in fact, murder her for whatever reason....there has to be proof of that disproving the "accident" theory.

From my point of view, I see an error on PM's part by not having a third person aboard. Regardless of who the passenger is, there should be a third person familiar with the submarine operations aboard the boat during any trip involving a guest. If there was an accident, there would have been a witness and somebody to hold PM accountable to call the police and do the normal thing. If there had been a murder, again, there would have been a witness (unfortunately possibly another victim). Additionally, a second set of eyes could help catch things possibly commonly overlooked by PM or passenger. It's a safety thing that could have been very avoidable if he had just asked a friend to come along and help with the trip.

Schroeder

08-23-17, 11:19 AM

Frankly I don't buy the whole accident thing anymore. Even if one panics after a fatal accident one doesn't cut the corpse to pieces, throws it overboard and scuttles one own submarine. He's had plenty of time to come clean but chose to tell the police more BS. That doesn't sound like someone who just accidentally killed someone and panicked.:nope:

Catfish

08-23-17, 12:44 PM

As Gargamel pointed out before, when there is a fatal or whatever accident at sea in a private boat, the first thing is to infoorm and call for help via the mandatory radio installed on every seagoing vessel with an engine, on emergency channel #16, giving assumed position and situation.
You do not bury anyone at sea, this is complete rubbish especially only a few miles from the coast in the baltic sea.
I just wonder what he thought about getting away with that :doh:

Rockin Robbins

08-23-17, 01:09 PM

Unfortunately, given the state of judicial systems world-wide, he'll probably be found guilty of negligent manslaughter and sentenced to 30 days WITHOUT TELEVISION, but released for time served. He will write a book, sign on for a movie and retire a rich man.

It would take a skilled butcher a half hour to do the work he did. He probably took two hours. That's inconsistent with "panic" or innocent motives. His lies since he was plucked out of the water double the probability of cold-blooded murder, not an accident. Watch his demeanor in the first interview: controlled, calm, calculating, assured. Murderer of the slimiest variety, I'm afraid.

Could you work for a couple of grisly hours hacking a body to pieces and with complete calm assurance say what he said? I couldn't do the deed, much less cover up for it in such a cold-blooded manner. He doesn't deserve to live, but he will.

Rip

08-23-17, 01:19 PM

For me if it is obvious you have done numerous things to destroy evidence then you have made your own bed. I'm going to assume that evidence was very damning to you.

If any of that evidence would have supported claiming some type of accident you have no one but yourself to blame for your predicament. No matter rules of the jury or whatever I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I let such a man ever walk free again. Just couldn't do it.

Rockin Robbins

08-23-17, 01:27 PM

The guilty flee when no one pursues. --Isaac Asimov

mapuc

08-23-17, 02:38 PM

Like most of us,especially those of us who have met him during these fantastic days in Sept. 2009 I think we feel different about this case. I feel emptiness. I also have the same thoughts as Carotio. It was great to meet him, he looked like a real good guy. It was an inspiration.

There is absolutely no excuse what he have done to Kim Wall.

If I was the prosecutor or the Danish police I would after the DNA-Match Require a complete psychological profile on Peter M.

About this he have panicked and buried her at sea, or she was hit by the propellers after she have been dropped in the water.

There was damage to the torso, in such a way that the person who did it would prevent gases in the body from causing the body to float to the surface and there was a mark for metal. In such a way that the perpetrator would have prevented the body from reaching the surface - And I doubt that a propeller may apply so precisely(from Todays press conference at the Police's headquarter in Copenhagen).

Edit: Forgot something while writing my comments: Kim Wall's arms and legs have been deliberately removed
Markus

Te Kaha

08-23-17, 04:37 PM

I'm horrified by this crime, I am sad, and I am angry. Like many others who are posting here in this thread I was there in 2009 and met Peter Madsen and had the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to hitch a ride in a submarine.

Now my memory of this event changed - aside from meeting other fellow submarine enthusiasts, which will always remain a positive memory, I've been on a vessel which later became a crime-scene, and I've met a man who later became a ******** criminal.

And I feel sad for Kim Wall and her relatives and friends. Her young life has been senselessly taken away by another human being.

I trust the Danish justice system to issue the sentence this man deserves.

mapuc

08-23-17, 05:22 PM

Another thing which you may not have heard about-It have been mentioned on Danish and Swedish news program.

Copied from Swedish teletext. and I have used google translate.

"
Danish police looks at unresolved murder cases
The investigation by the Swedish journalist Kim Wall's fate has led the police in Denmark to take a new look at old unresolved murder cases.
-Actually, we have a case from
1986 when a Japanese tourist's torso
Found in the port of Copenhagen,
Told Jens Möller Jensen, preliminary investigation
Leaders in the submarine case, at a conference
on Wednesday.
In the fall of 1986, equals were found by a woman whose identity could be clarified only eight months later, like a 22-year-old Japanese woman. The murder of the Japanese woman remained unclear "

Markus

mapuc

08-23-17, 05:57 PM

u crank

08-23-17, 06:32 PM

What a tragedy. My heart goes out to this womans family. It's hard to believe.

Sad indeed. :nope:

Platapus

08-23-17, 07:06 PM

While he is, of course, presumed innocent until proven guilty, the facts being reported do not look so good for him.

Innocent people don't change their story drastically and certainly don't change it twice like that.

The evidence seems to contradict his story significantly with little room for interpretation. One does not bury someone at sea by removing their limbs and venting the body.

My question is motive. Was this a spur of the moment rape/homicide? Did this guy know the reporter before this trip? Unless this guy is especially stupid it does not look like a premeditated murder.

Strange story but it looks like he is pretty guilty.

Onkel Neal

08-23-17, 07:29 PM

Assuming the worst, there could have been a bloody mess inside the boat which may be a reason he opened it up to the sea.

You called it.

FlatRook

08-23-17, 07:33 PM

This is one crazy story. I have even more questions now that they have found the chopped up body. Such a sad event for the family of the lost.

Onkel Neal

08-24-17, 08:18 AM

Jimbuna

08-24-17, 08:34 AM

Another important thing about how things work in Denmark when it comes to solve crimes

They have found the torso of Kim Wall, they have found blood in Peters Submarine-That ain't enough. The police have to without any doubt prove it was Peter who has killed her either on purpose or as he claim by accident and the police has to prove that it was Peter who cut her into pieces.

Markus

I'm obviously no expert of the judicial system in Denmark but here in the UK there would already be sufficient evidence both material and circumstantial for the CPS (Crown Prosecution Service) to go to trial with.

You state 'without any doubt'. Surely that should be 'beyond reasonable doubt', otherwise there would need to be a first hand witness present or video evidence or something of that nature during the actual event before a conviction could be obtained?

AVGWarhawk

08-24-17, 08:47 AM

I don't have any doubt. Seriously, Peter did this.

Nor do I. None of what has transpired or proposed to have transpired makes any sense.

AVGWarhawk

08-24-17, 08:50 AM

I'm obviously no expert of the judicial system in Denmark but here in the UK there would already be sufficient evidence both material and circumstantial for the CPS (Crown Prosecution Service) to go to trial with.

You state 'without any doubt'. Surely that should be 'beyond reasonable doubt', otherwise there would need to be a first hand witness present or video evidence or something of that nature during the actual event before a conviction could be obtained?

Without a good solid explanation would any jury not see this was a crime and not a simple accident. Accidents are reported and explained. The coverer up started from the first questioning. The story has changed several times. The most damning is a dismembered body.

Sadly, parents are not to have to see their children taken from them no matter the circumstances. My heart goes out to her family.

Catfish

08-24-17, 09:17 AM

He did it, no doubt.
Had he instantly reported it, it might have been passed as an accident, certainly depending on evidence found.

But dismembering and adding a weight, scuttling the sub, telling different stories overtime, this covering-up makes an accident implausible.
It seems he had to hide something, and while we can only guess what it is, there are not so much plausible foregoing events to imagine :nope:

Schroeder

08-24-17, 10:45 AM

German media says that he's now charged with murder and not manslaughter anymore.

(in German)
http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/kim-wall-anklage-101.html

mapuc

08-24-17, 10:53 AM

I'm obviously no expert of the judicial system in Denmark but here in the UK there would already be sufficient evidence both material and circumstantial for the CPS (Crown Prosecution Service) to go to trial with.

You state 'without any doubt'. Surely that should be 'beyond reasonable doubt', otherwise there would need to be a first hand witness present or video evidence or something of that nature during the actual event before a conviction could be obtained?

Me either.
Heard a expert on Danish Justice, saying it ain't enough that they have found the torso, blood inside his sub. The police and the prosecutor has to prove it was him. Then this woman mentioned som old case where the perpetrator had confessed and after removed this or the police had found enough evidence, but the criminal was set free by the court.

In my head it's no doubt Peter did this-
The big question is-Could he have an evil alter ego-Like Mr. Jekyll and Hyde ? If so, could Peter be unavare of his alter ego ? This is of course a job for the psychiatrist.

Markus

AVGWarhawk

08-24-17, 11:02 AM

Me either.
Heard a expert on Danish Justice, saying it ain't enough that they have found the torso, blood inside his sub. The police and the prosecutor has to prove it was him. Then this woman mentioned som old case where the perpetrator had confessed and after removed this or the police had found enough evidence, but the criminal was set free by the court.

In my head it's no doubt Peter did this-
The big question is-Could he have an evil alter ego-Like Mr. Jekyll and Hyde ? If so, could Peter be unavare of his alter ego ? This is of course a job for the psychiatrist.

Markus

Alter ego? I have never met the guy. I do not know what if any ego he may have. Perhaps sexual advances were made aboard the sub that were thwarted or perpetrated. Were these two alone on the sub? What would a journalist do once arriving back to port after such an event?

Onkel Neal

08-24-17, 11:06 AM

The charges have been upgraded to murder
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/kim-wall-case-latest-peter-madsen-murder-charge-submarine-death-headless-torso-denmark-copenhagen-a7910671.html

mapuc

08-24-17, 11:32 AM

Danish police are going to add additional charge against Peter. "Improper handling of human remains"

Markus

Carotio

08-24-17, 11:53 AM

http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/muligt-fund-af-kropsdel-i-sverige-dansk-politi-underrettet/6790935
http://politiken.dk/indland/art6080552/Svensk-politi-unders%C3%B8ger-fund-af-mulig-kropsdel

Possibly, a body part has been found near Falsterbo in Sweden. Danish police notified about it. No more news about that.

http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/torso-var-noegen-efterlyser-disse-ting/6790284

The torso was nude, so the clothes must be flowing in the water somewhere...

http://www.bt.dk/krimi/avis-raket-madsen-er-i-isolation-i-faengslet-han-risikerede-taesk

Rumour goes that PM is now in solitary in the prison. Because of hierarchy in prisons, it's probably PM himself who wanted to be there, because any criminal who have molested, damaged or killed any woman or child is the lowest of the lowest, and though he isn't convicted in a trial yet, everybody in there knows who he is by now.

http://www.bt.dk/krimi/nyt-i-ubaadsmysteriet-anklager-kraever-raket-madsen-faengslet-for-drab

On september 5th, when the next trial hearing will take place, the prosecutor will ask to have PM examined by a psychologist plus he/she will demand the charge of molesting the body to be added to the charge. For that alone, it's up to 6 months in jail. If he is convicted of manslaughter, it's up to 8 years in prison, and if it's murder - according to this:
https://danskelove.dk/straffeloven/237
it will be from 5 years to life. A lifesentence in Denmark is usually up to 16 years, IIRC. Only hard cases, it's really life. But even then, it's hard. We once had a police murderer, who stayed in prison for 33 years.
Back in 2000, a man, who once murdered his own mother, when he lived in the USA, came back to Denmark, got a relationship with a woman, whom he later killed along with her children. I was back in 2000 one of those who had to search for the bones of those 3 persons. Peter Lundin was his name. Even though the bodies were never found, the police presented enough evidence in court, so he was convicted to life in prison.
So it could be possible for the court to convict PM for this, if they have enough evidence to convince the court.
Now some of you speak of a jury. I'm not sure there will be a jury for this case, or if it will be 3 judges. I'm not that much into Danish law system, but I don't think that juries are used that much in Denmark. I think that several judges are more common. But I could ask some friends who study law to ask around, what's more common, plus I know a lawyer to ask too.

Anyway, as several of you have written. The fact that the body is dismembered/molested, and the fact that the sub went down, and the fact that he lied and changed explanation, and the fact that he didn't call for help, all that makes it impossible to believe that it indeed was an accident. If - and it's a BIG IF - it was an accident and that he went into panic and wanted to bury her at sea, then why the .... did he cut her up? Temporaily insanity? And why didn't he tell about that fact from the beginning? The calm way he was answering the questions from reporters when he got ashore and brought to the police doesn't show a man in panic.
I'm really looking forward to read the result from the psycologist and what the final verdict will be. Hopefully, the full truth will be revealed at that time. Because now, there are really too many open questions, which need to be answered.....

Rockin Robbins

08-24-17, 12:14 PM

What begins to emerge is the portrait of a particularly gruesome monster.... I fear this gets sadder before it gets better.

Mr Quatro

08-24-17, 12:56 PM

What happens to his submarine? What if someone buys it at auction?

What is a one of kind submarine worth?

AVGWarhawk

08-24-17, 01:18 PM

What happens to his submarine? What if someone buys it at auction?

What is a one of kind submarine worth?

The submarine is entered as evidence for now. I would believe it would be scrapped eventually.

Schroeder

08-24-17, 01:24 PM

What happens to his submarine? What if someone buys it at auction?

What is a one of kind submarine worth?
Isn't it technically still his property? Just because someone goes to jail, doesn't mean they're stripped of their possessions.:hmmm:

mapuc

08-24-17, 01:30 PM

The submarine is entered as evidence for now. I would believe it would be scrapped eventually.

I have had almost the same thoughts-what's going to happen to his sub ?

Will it, when the police it done with, it be sold on some auction ?

If so, who's going to buy a sub, where a horrible crime have been....

Markus

kraznyi_oktjabr

08-24-17, 01:31 PM

The submarine is entered as evidence for now. I would believe it would be scrapped eventually.Agreed. After first trial there will likely be appeal or two and submarine will almost certainly remain in evidence until case is closed. I'm quite confident that Danish government will take Nautilus in its possesssion and will silently scrap it to avoid any souvenir nonsense.

kraznyi_oktjabr

08-24-17, 01:37 PM

Isn't it technically still his property? Just because someone goes to jail, doesn't mean they're stripped of their possessions.:hmmm:I don't know about Danish law but in Finland court can condemn property (without compensation) if it has been used in commitment of crime or acquired by criminal means or with illicit gains. I'm surprised if there are no similar provisions in Danish law books.

AVGWarhawk

08-24-17, 02:01 PM

I have had almost the same thoughts-what's going to happen to his sub ?

Will it, when the police it done with, it be sold on some auction ?

If so, who's going to buy a sub, where a horrible crime have been....

Markus

Thus my thoughts it will be scrapped.

mapuc

08-24-17, 02:22 PM

Thus my thoughts it will be scrapped.

We can only speculate about it-

I wouldn't be surprised if the Danish or Swedish people in 5-10 years from now, can read in an article something like

"Would you buy this home build sub ?

This submarine-Nautilus UC 3, who is a home build, is now for sale...Those of you who may have forgot what's special about this sub, it was on this sub Peter Madsen committed a horrible crime back in 2017."

Markus

AVGWarhawk

08-24-17, 02:31 PM

We can only speculate about it-

I wouldn't be surprised if the Danish or Swedish people in 5-10 years from now, can read in an article something like

"Would you buy this home build sub ?

This submarine-Nautilus UC 3, who is a home build, is now for sale...Those of you who may have forgot what's special about this sub, it was on this sub Peter Madsen committed a horrible crime back in 2017."

Markus

No one wants to store a submarine that was used in crime. Expense is not worth it.

Von Due

08-24-17, 02:49 PM

No one wants to store a submarine that was used in crime. Expense is not worth it.

You would be horrified as well as surprised... There is a market for "souvernirs" like this, as well as fan magazines dedicated to psychos. There are enough sickos out there to make it all pay.

AVGWarhawk

08-24-17, 03:06 PM

You would be horrified as well as surprised... There is a market for "souvernirs" like this, as well as fan magazines dedicated to psychos. There are enough sickos out there to make it all pay.

We should not be feeding the sickos no matter the monetary gain. I get it man. Cool sub. Make a house out it. Make it sea worthy once more, etc. Issue is it was used in a commission of a crime. There is a life taken. The sub, out of respect for the family, should be sent to the crusher.

Von Due

08-24-17, 03:11 PM

We should not be feeding the sickos no matter the monetary gain. I get it man. Cool sub. Make a house out it. Make it sea worthy once more, etc. Issue is it was used in a commission of a crime. There is a life taken. The sub, out of respect for the family, should be sent to the crusher.

Personally, I agree that is should be scrapped but in the end, I feel it should be up to KW's family to decide and that their decision should weigh more. I would think they have no desire to see it sail but like I said, it should be up to them. I would absolutely oppose any idea of making a quick buck out of it and here comes the point of my first post: This is a wicked cynical world we live in and if someone sees the opportunity to turn this into a money tree, then they will jump on it. Thus, I do think the boat should be scrapped.

Onkel Neal

08-24-17, 04:07 PM

http://time.com/4912170/who-was-kim-wall/

Onkel Neal

08-24-17, 04:08 PM

Kim Wall
https://www.buzzfeed.com/amberjamieson/journalist-kim-wall-remembered?utm_term=.plPyvLv7O4#.ysVpD9Dk3g

Carotio

08-25-17, 05:16 AM

http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/ny-sigtelse-mod-peter-madsen-naegter-sig-skyldig/6791616

Yesterday, thursday, PM was brought to a questioning at the police station, where the charge of molesting the body of KW was added to the charge of manslaughter. PM refuses/denies both charges and declares himself innocent.

I wonder how his attorney/lawyer will explain this in court that the body was cut up in pieces and thereby defend him. I'm glad that I didn't study law. I wouldn't be able to defend people in court, when it comes to that kind of crimes.

Jimbuna

08-25-17, 05:58 AM

I think his lawyer will soon find themselves in a position of 'mission impossible' and as for the sub I would imagine the government will have it scrapped.

Dowly

08-25-17, 06:28 AM

The fact that her body had been punctured is imho more evidence to suggest Madsen did it. It would be something someone used to the concept of buoyancy would think about doing.

Carotio

08-25-17, 07:59 AM

I think his lawyer will soon find themselves in a position of 'mission impossible' and as for the sub I would imagine the government will have it scrapped.

I'm not so sure that it will be scrapped. After the final verdict, it could be placed in a museum. But only time will tell...

AVGWarhawk

08-25-17, 10:43 AM

I'm not so sure that it will be scrapped. After the final verdict, it could be placed in a museum. But only time will tell...

Not a museum worthy sub nor a internationally renowned individual that built it.

AVGWarhawk

08-25-17, 10:44 AM

The fact that her body had been punctured is imho more evidence to suggest Madsen did it. It would be something someone used to the concept of buoyancy would think about doing.

Observation well taken. Adding the torso was weighted down from my understanding.

Schroeder

08-25-17, 10:54 AM

Not a museum worthy sub nor a internationally renowned individual that built it.
It's small enough to be kept indoors so up keeping costs would be minimal. We have an aviation museum not far from where I live and they have some unique aircraft build by private people in their collection too. Might not be too far fetched for a naval museum to get the sub, especially now with that background story.

mapuc

08-25-17, 11:03 AM

This is from the Swedish news paper aftonbladet.se

(have used google translate)

"Madsen close to where body parts were found in 1986

The police are looking at several unsolved murder after Kim Wall's body has been found.
One of the cases concerns the Japanese tourist Kazuko Toyonaga, found cut by the Islands' pier in Copenhagen Harbor in 1986.
In the investigation there is a youth - who spoke of a macabre finding.
And in the immediate vicinity was the then 15-year-old Peter Madsen almost daily

The remains of the mysterious missing 22-year-old Japanese student Kazuko Toyonaga, who was on vacation in Europe was found in a plastic bag floating in the water at Islands Brygge in Copenhagen in October 1986. In the bag were the legs and lower body. The rest of the body was found later in other places in the entrance to Copenhagen, including those in plastic bags.

It took the police eight months to identify the victim. She had been on a trip and visited both Norway, Finland and Sweden. The day before the police think she was murdered, she took the train from Stockholm to Copenhagen

Tipped of about bloody objects

Among the tips that came to the police in the extensive investigation was also a statement from a "youngster" who called for a macabre finding in a building in the port area.

Jens Møller Jensen at the Copenhagen Police leads the investigation of Kim Wall's death, and he was the one who told me that he also looked at the unexplained murder of Kazuko Toyonaga.

He says that one has not yet looked into the old cases yet, but has been fully upset with the ongoing investigation

We have information that Peter Madsen was almost daily in the vicinity of the site where parts of Kazuko Toyonaga were found.
- Not what I know of, and have been difficult to imagine, he was only 15-16 years. We will look at it, but it will be later, said Jens Møller Jensen "

I'm not going to speculate whether he killed this Japanese or not. It's up to the Danish police to figure it out. I say the same he was only 15 years old at that time 1986.

Markus

kraznyi_oktjabr

08-25-17, 01:11 PM

I'm not going to speculate whether he killed this Japanese or not. It's up to the Danish police to figure it out. I say the same he was only 15 years old at that time 1986.

MarkusI'm not going to speculate either but that is wonderful age for school shooting. Age alone is poor defence.

Von Due

08-25-17, 01:25 PM

One thing I'm curious about is, reading a bit about a feud between PM and the previous owner of the boat, with threats of legal actions and bizarre SMS from PM. I am a bit cautious as there is no timeline and no verification (picked it up in a tabloid paper) but perhaps some of the Danes here can fill us in on what facts around that that have emerged? The tabloid did not paint a nice picture of PM, but one of a quarrelsome headache, leading to the boat being transfered to his or a legal representative's ownership.

mapuc

08-25-17, 04:36 PM

We should not laugh or make jokes about this awful case. There are some however, who can not stand back to create conspiracy, as a friend made us aware of. This one had seen a video on the net where these conspirators came with the following statement.

It is CIA and NASA who have set him up. Because he is too far in his space program

Markus

Von Due

08-25-17, 04:41 PM

mapuc

08-25-17, 04:49 PM

I don't think there should be a place for conspiracy theories here. This is real enough alright.

You are right. Was only thinking on telling you about what's going on outside Subsim and this thread.

Markus

Von Due

08-25-17, 05:02 PM

You are right. Was only thinking on telling you about what's going on outside Subsim and this thread.

Markus

No worries, just me being allergic to conspiracy theories :)

Rockin Robbins

08-25-17, 05:56 PM

Not a museum worthy sub nor a internationally renowned individual that built it.

Since in Europe they cannot administer the death penalty to him, who richly deserves it, the least they can do is administer the death penalty to his submarine and take what meant most to him away.

His sub needs to be publicly scrapped and he need to be made to watch the process. They should find an excuse to extradite him to Texas, where justice would be served.

Catfish

08-26-17, 06:52 AM

It is still possible it was an accident, and he overreacted out of panic or whatever. He still claims he is innocent.
I doubt it though.

Problem is how to prove either side.

Von Due

08-26-17, 06:55 AM

It is still possible it was an accident, and he overreacted out of panic or whatever. He still claims he is innocent.
I doubt it though.

Problem is how to prove either side.

^This. Unlikely does not equal impossible.

Rockstar

08-26-17, 07:22 AM

It is still possible it was an accident, and he overreacted out of panic or whatever. He still claims he is innocent.
I doubt it though.

Problem is how to prove either side.

Ive responded to a number of accidents involing fatalities and serious injury. Every one of them was a very emotional event for the living. PM on the otherhand didn't display any of the normal behavior one expects to see. No one ever just gave a thumbs up and walked away. There is something seriously wrong with that kind of behavior.

mapuc

08-26-17, 11:05 AM

The prosecutor has demanded a full mental examination. There is two type of these mental examination. The little one and the big(full) one, which Peter have to go through

What the outcome of this examination will be I don't know-I don't think we will be told, not before after the trial and verdict.

Here in Denmark we have something called forvaringsdom =
"custody sentence" where the guilty is not sent to jail, but to a Psychological hospital.
There is also forvaring på ubestemt tid = "custody for an indefinite period".

This I'm convinced of-he will get one of these.

Markus

Rockstar

08-26-17, 11:11 AM

Here in the States if he was found guilty of such a heinous crime he would be sent to a maximum security prison and kept in general population for as long as he lived. Which wouldn't be very long in general population.

Platapus

08-26-17, 12:54 PM

It is still possible it was an accident, and he overreacted out of panic or whatever. He still claims he is innocent.
I doubt it though.

Problem is how to prove either side.

Has anyone come up with a motive that would make this premeditated?

I clearly don't have all the facts, but from what I have been reading, it leans toward a spur of the moment crime. Especially with the ineffective ways he tried to cover up the crime.

Did this guy and the lady know each other prior to this?

Dowly

08-26-17, 01:08 PM

Did this guy and the lady know each other prior to this?I believe Madsen said he only knew her first name.

kraznyi_oktjabr

08-26-17, 03:08 PM

What the outcome of this examination will be I don't know-I don't think we will be told, not before after the trial and verdict.How could results not be published? Ofcourse details may not become public but atleast level of sanity will be.

This I'm convinced of-he will get one of these.

MarkusMay I ask why you are so convinced? Human can be extraordinally cruel toward another human or animal without being insane.

Has anyone come up with a motive that would make this premeditated?I don't know Danish law but here in Finland premeditation is only one of four conditions where homicide become mureder. These are:
1) if homicide is premeditated
2) or made in unusually cruel or tenacious way
3) or method causes serious danger to public
4) or if victim is public servant performing his official duties in maintaining public order or safety, or other official duty
In addition to any of these conditions crime must also be generally aggravated. These are directly from Finnish Crime Code 19.12.1889/39 2 § (21.4.1995/578) although my translation may not be sufficiently accurate to capture all nuances of matter.

Mr Quatro

08-26-17, 05:08 PM

Some where in here someone said that PM may have done this same kind of dirty deed before to a visitor from Japan, but it was a case never solved. Yet at the age of 15 he was seen daily in the same area she was found.

Surely he could've figured out a way to tie her up and haul her out of the sub if it was just an accident, but instead it becomes a gruesome crime of dismemberment and trying to make sure she was never found.

My point is perhaps he is guilty of other crimes of a like nature ...

One more item I noticed is that PM was seen on his submarine running around without running lights in the same general area. Why?

Was she already dead and he wanted another ship to hit them and he would be the only survivor?

Subnuts

08-26-17, 06:18 PM

So, should the UC3 Nautilus still be part of the Radio Room logo at the top of the page? :hmmm:

Reece

08-26-17, 07:28 PM

No!!:timeout: (Poor Neal will have to edit it)

Edit: I don't think it is UC3.:hmmm:

Rockstar

08-26-17, 08:57 PM

Has anyone come up with a motive that would make this premeditated?

I clearly don't have all the facts, but from what I have been reading, it leans toward a spur of the moment crime. Especially with the ineffective ways he tried to cover up the crime.

Did this guy and the lady know each other prior to this?

based on a report mapuc furnished earlier PM may be a serial killer.

Sailor Steve

08-26-17, 10:19 PM

So, should the UC3 Nautilus still be part of the Radio Room logo at the top of the page? :hmmm:

No!!:timeout: (Poor Neal will have to edit it)

Edit: I don't think it is UC3.:hmmm:
Unless I'm missing something UC-3 isn't anywhere on the main page, except for the article link in the news section.

razark

08-26-17, 10:29 PM

Unless I'm missing something UC-3 isn't anywhere on the main page, except for the article link in the news section.
I think he means this:
http://i.imgur.com/8RG1cQx.png

Sailor Steve

08-27-17, 01:03 AM

Ah. It appears I did miss something. One of the rotating banners, and yes, it's UC-3.

Jimbuna

08-27-17, 08:31 AM

So, should the UC3 Nautilus still be part of the Radio Room logo at the top of the page? :hmmm:

I think he means this:
http://i.imgur.com/8RG1cQx.png

I should think that would be Neals decision and one taken after a verdict has been reached by the judiciary.

Gargamel

08-27-17, 11:05 AM

Some where in here someone said that PM may have done this same kind of dirty deed before to a visitor from Japan, but it was a case never solved. Yet at the age of 15 he was seen daily in the same area she was found.

There was a shoe salesman, I believe, who was at both nuclear bombings in Japan. But yet, I don't think he had anything to do with either one.

Coincidences can occur, and if you look hard enough, outliers look like patterns.

I'm not saying he didn't do either one, it's just that it feels very... cherry picked.. looking for previous history.

Sailor Steve

08-27-17, 12:58 PM

I'm not saying he didn't do either one, it's just that it feels very... cherry picked.. looking for previous history.
That's certainly a possibility. On the other hand we have a previous crime with similar characteristics. It's not our place to say one way or the other, but it is the job of the police to examine every possibility. We can only wait and see what they come up with. And speculate 'til the cows come home.

mapuc

08-27-17, 01:35 PM

It was me who posted the story about a former unsolved case in Denmark. I posted the story two times.

First time was after having read it on the Swedish Teletext In which we could read Danish police looking into an old unsolved case from 1986 where body parts from a 22 year old Japanese turist was found.
(see # 129)

Later I read a lot more about this case in the Swedish news paper
(see # 168)

Markus

FlatRook

08-27-17, 07:31 PM

Some are asking his motive, my bet is something sexual. Rape, sexual assault, or an accidental brush that was misinterpreted as a sexual advance happened. He wanted to make sure she did not make it back to shore to tell on him or write a negative story. We may never know, but this is what I believe. I can't really believe the serial killer theory, as I am sure there are better ways than to kill a high profile reporter out at sea and sink a project you have been working on for years.

makman94

08-28-17, 05:15 PM

he changes the stories and now he is saying that the death of the victim was an accident ? and after that one more 'accident' happened which sunked the boat ? did i understand it right ?

gimpy117

08-29-17, 08:39 PM

I heard about this on NPR. just awful. seems like it's pretty cut and dry to me. I'd like to believe it was a accident; but frankly bodies just don't get dismembered and then a boat scuttled

Buddahaid

08-29-17, 08:44 PM

If it were a plot to a BBC murder mystery I wouldn't believe it. This one will be notorious.

speed150mph

08-30-17, 02:30 PM

Carotio

08-31-17, 11:23 AM

http://nyheder.tv2.dk/krimi/2017-08-31-peter-madsen-vil-kaempe-mod-faengsling-i-byretten

Tuesday 5th of september, the custody for PM expires. His lawyer has announced that PM do not want to volontarily extend the custody.
Since he has denied all charges against him: murder, manslaughter and dismemberment of the body, the police will have to convince the court that the suspicious behaviour of PM is enough to keep him there while investigating further.

Schroeder

08-31-17, 12:59 PM

Onkel Neal

08-31-17, 01:29 PM

What I'd like to know is, since his guilt is pretty much a sure thing, why didn't he run? I mean he had a submarine. He could have dove Beneath the waves, made for another country near by, scuttled the boat off shore and disappeared. Most people would have assumed that the sub experienced an issue and sank. Unless he happened to cross paths with a navy submarine that could ID his sub, nobody would have had any clue what happened and assumed he was dead.

But I guess if he murdered, dismembered, and ditched the body of a random reporter for who knows what reason, it would be safe to say he wasn't in a rational set of mind

The UC3 Nautilus was not capable of running submerged or traveling long distances. I've never known of it leaving the shallow waters around Copenhagen. It could submerge, but I don't think it was any good at moving at a set depth. It was either running on the surface or making stationary dives and sitting on the bottom at 25 ft.

Jimbuna

09-01-17, 07:35 AM

It would take the very best efforts of a third rate lawyer to fail in having the custody extended.....surely.

Carotio

09-05-17, 09:38 AM

http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/peter-madsen-i-retten-saadan-doede-kim-wall-i-ubaaden/6808626

From the court today - the court has been opened for press and relatives.
PM explains that the death of KW happend as accident, when she was in the tower and he accidently lost the hatch on her head, so she fell down and when he got it open again, he could only see her feet, and when he got down, the blood was flowing out of her head, and she was dead within 20 seconds or so. So he panicked and decided to bury her at sea.
He claims he didn't touch KW otherwise (sexually), he dragged her up with rope around her feet and pushed her into the sea without looking if she was sinking. That means he claims he put her to sea as a complete body.

So he is still deniing murder, manslaughter and dismemberment. He is only admitting having buried her at sea, which isn't alright either.

To be continued...

Mr Quatro

09-05-17, 10:13 AM

Pathological lying
(also called pseudologia fantastica and mythomania)
is a behavior of habitual or compulsive lying.
It was first described in the medical literature in 1891
by Anton Delbrueck. ... Individuals may be aware they
are lying, or may believe they are telling the truth.

I knew one of these kinds of people ... I worked for a company that made you take a lie detector test every three months. This one employee would tell lies about how his father was a race car driver and other outlandish stories. So when it came time for his first test we all just knew that he would fail.

I had a pretty good relationship with the boss so I asked him if he failed and he said, "no" he passed. In other words a pathological lair can believe his own lies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_lying

Lying is the act of both knowingly and intentionally or willfully making a false statement.

Most people do so out of fear.

Normal lies are defensive and are told to avoid the consequences of truth telling. They are often white lies that spare another's feelings, reflect a pro-social attitude, and make civilized human contact possible.

Pathological lying is considered a mental illness, because it takes over rational judgment and progresses into the fantasy world and back.

Pathological lying can be described as a habituation of lying.

Hitman

09-05-17, 12:32 PM

From a legal point of view, it was obvious that his lawyer would tell him to follow that line. The evidence of KW having died onboard -admitted by him already- and him having disposed of the body was undeniable, so the only defence left is to try and avoid the charge of murder. It is the accusation's burden to provide the evidence of the intentional killing, otherwise the accidental death can't be ruled out and as such he can't be punished for murder. At most for unvoluntary death of that person by negligence or imprudence, and the difference is big at least in the spanish law and I guess in the danish one too. I am almost certain that he won't be able to avoid the punishment for mistreatment of the body, but the key is if he will be even punished for imprudent/negligence homicide.

It is important to note that while we all might come to our own conclussions regarding what happened based on how the body was disposed of, on a court things are different and a greater certainty is mandatory, as our western legal systems are based on the idea of it being preferable to have a guilty escape punishment rather than an innocent suffering it. The fact of dismembering the body per se is not necessarily an admission of murder in a court, like it or not. You can presume that the dismembering might have something to do with him willing to hide evidence of the murder (The injuries in the head could be quite telling of murder instead of accident, same as self-defence injuries on arms when protecting yourself from hits or stabs), but that is just our educated guess, so don't think that it can be asumed as such in a court.

Anyway, a very, very sad thing to happen to anyone, my thoughts are with KW's family and I hope the investigation and trial clears things finally.

Vannevar

09-05-17, 01:51 PM

BBC Coverage: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41165806

mapuc

09-05-17, 02:01 PM

Couldn't find anything about his confession on sinking his sub by his own hand and not as he said from start due to technical problems.

Heard this some hours ago on Danish TV2 NEWS

Markus

Rip

09-05-17, 02:49 PM

Latest excuse is he accidently dropped a hatch on her head.

Reece

09-05-17, 08:02 PM

I wonder what his next story will be!!:hmmm:

makman94

09-06-17, 07:41 PM

Nothing will bring back the poor girl so the word ''justice'' has only an academic meaning when there is a murder.

McBeck

09-07-17, 06:24 AM

he changes the stories and now he is saying that the death of the victim was an accident ? and after that one more 'accident' happened which sunked the boat ? did i understand it right ?
Actually he stated in the first hearing with the police that she was dead and that it was an accident.

What was revealed to the public on the 5th of September was what he explained on the 12th of August - his first hearing
So except for what he told the press in passing as he stepped on shore on the 11th of August, he has kept to his story that she died by accident.

Reece

09-07-17, 08:10 AM

Yes he dropped the hatch on her, then she fell down and her arms, legs, and head fell off!!:hmmm: I don't buy it!!:timeout:

McBeck

09-07-17, 08:39 AM

Yes he dropped the hatch on her, then she fell down and her arms, legs, and head fell off!!:hmmm: I don't buy it!!:timeout:
Me neither. I dont buy that someone else cut off her legs, arms and head. However, that does not mean the hatch explanation is by default untrue. Those hatches are VERY heavy and pack a severe punch if you get one in the head with full kinetic force. Not to mention the fall from the top of the latter.

Catfish

09-07-17, 08:56 AM

Carotio

09-07-17, 09:51 AM

https://www.b.dk/nationalt/landsret-peter-madsen-skal-forblive-faengslet-0

Tuesday in court, it was decided to keep PM in custody for the next 4 weeks, while the police investigates further. The lawyer filed a complaint, demanding the immidiate release, but the court has today announced that they have rejected that complaint, because they believe that PM might try to work against that investigation if on free foot. So he has to stay there for the next 4 weeks.

McBeck

09-07-17, 12:10 PM

^ certainly true

But it does not explain:
1. the claim that he put her off the ship before, at this island. Or did only the media say that? Not sure here.
2. if it was an accident, why didn't he instantly(!) call for SAR or headed to the nearest port, with the body. You do not just "bury someone at sea", this is an idiotic statement or "justification", especially with a mile from the coast
3. the dismembering
4. the "accidentally" sinking Nautilus

All looks too much like a cover-up.
Well, all this has been said before.
I am sure there was some ugly assault circumstance happening before this "accident", but it will be probably impossible to prove that, which again makes this dismembering more suspicious.

Very sad.
To get somewhat closer to answering some of above you need to understand how Peter may have been thinking...here is my best shot

1) I think his very first conversation with the authorities would have been that he put her to shore. But its a fact that during the first hearing (the day after) he did state she died in the sub by accident.
2,3,4) His testimony is that he was in shock that something he had built had taken a life - he considered suicide by sinking the sub with both of them in it.
The same state of mind caused him to dump the body and sink the sub. He still maintains that he didnt dismember the body (this is where I cant follow anymore)

The fact of the matter is that only Peter knows what happened, but what part of what he is saying can be believed...In my book it contains both believable, plausible and unbelievable parts :(

A very tragic story...

makman94

09-07-17, 12:37 PM

Actually he stated in the first hearing with the police that she was dead and that it was an accident.

What was revealed to the public on the 5th of September was what he explained on the 12th of August - his first hearing
So except for what he told the press in passing as he stepped on shore on the 11th of August, he has kept to his story that she died by accident.

thank you for the clarification McBeck, I thought that he has ,firstly, said that he returned the girl alive from the trip.
But even not, the fact is that he knew that time that the girl was dead and said nothing.More over he got rid of the body and later, by 'coincidence', got rid of the boat too. This looks to me more like ''cold blood'' than ''shocked blood''.
....
2. if it was an accident, why didn't he instantly(!) call for SAR or headed to the nearest port, with the body. You do not just "bury someone at sea"...

exactly this ^ guys !

if you are shocked ,as he says, you are not covering everything you can just for slipping away. It is obvious that he wanted nobody to knows

....I think his very first conversation with the authorities would have been that he put her to shore. But its a fact that during the first hearing (the day after) he did state she died in the sub by accident.

what did he meant by that ''he put her to shore'' ? Isn't it that he meant that he put her there alive ?

McBeck

09-08-17, 01:25 AM

what did he meant by that ''he put her to shore'' ? Isn't it that he meant that he put her there alive ?
If my memory serves me correct, when he passed the journalists, he said there was nobody else in the sub (referring to the sinking) which is now known to be true. The police stated later that he had stated he put her to shore the evening before, but from the court records we know that during his initial hearing (Grundlovsforhør - the day after the sinking) he stated that she was dead in an accident and that he "buried her at sea". This is the statement he has stuck with.
The media has said that he also said she was dead in a conversation with the police before the hearing.

What seems to be fact is that he initially stated he put her to shore and then changed that to she was dead. Both statements were made within 24hours.

What creates a bit of chaos is that the statement that he put her to shore was released by the police at the very beginning, but it took over a week for the second statement to be released, thus painting a picture of change of statement when they found the torso - which is untrue.

McBeck

09-08-17, 01:33 AM

if you are shocked ,as he says, you are not covering everything you can just for slipping away. It is obvious that he wanted nobody to knows

That is the logical reaction in a normal state of mind. When you are in shock you can behave very differently.
A woman once lived with her husband for 2 weeks...while he was dead in their home. It was not until visitors stopped by she accepted and saw that he was dead. She was a normal person.
People can do strange things under pressure or in shock and may not be logical...

However spending the time cut arms, legs and head off is where I personally loose the plot

Mike Abberton

09-08-17, 11:09 AM

I saw one article (sorry no link) that said he intentionally lied about putting her ashore because he thought that would allow him to go home and meet with his wife/family, knowing that the accident story would have to come out eventually. There was enough immediate suspicion though, that he was kept in custody and relatively quickly changed his story.

Of course all that could just be BS, just like the "I don't who cut off her limbs and head, they were attached when I buried her at sea". And the "no I didn't have a saw on board, it was in my shop on shore, but must have been stolen while I was on the sub because it isn't there anymore".

Mike

Reece

09-08-17, 07:19 PM

I'm starting to think he believes his own lies!!he must think we are all gullible.:doh:

Carotio

09-09-17, 07:36 AM

If you're on facebook, you can go here:
https://www.facebook.com/kimwallmemorialfund/videos/339317603179349/

Friends of Kim Wall have put together a memorial video about Kim Wall.
The language is in English for the most part.

gimpy117

09-12-17, 11:20 PM

he's changed hit story too much, and I think the fact that he said it was an "accident" but didn't call for help is fishy. I'm sure his boat has a VHF if something happens you call for help! you notify the authorities immediately. that didn't happen...you don't just dump a body because you didn't want it on the boat! and bodies don't just fall apart.

I want to believe that he's not guilty, but a dismembered body seems like a clear attempt to hide the identity of the corpse and the scuttling of the boat an attempt to do away with the crime scene. even if it was an accident (ie. he actually dropped the hatch on her like he said) his cover-up would still be criminal

biosthetique

09-13-17, 09:17 AM

Schroeder

09-13-17, 10:39 AM

You best wishes to Peter?...But he is a murderer!...
That info wasn't established at that time. When he posted that it still looked like Nautilus had accidentally sunk with no fatalities.

Jimbuna

09-13-17, 10:39 AM

You best wishes to Peter?...But he is a murderer!...

We are all entitled to an opinion.

Innocent until proven guilty.

biosthetique

09-13-17, 12:35 PM

We are all entitled to an opinion.

Innocent until proven guilty.

Of course I am entitled to many opinions and so are you.

The Danish legal system might be different from the British or American legal system. Ethnocentrism does not guaranty a clear understanding of foreign situations.

Aktungbby

09-13-17, 03:47 PM

Of course I am entitled to many opinions and so are you. The Danish legal system might be different from the British or American legal system. Not at all! Where do U think the Angles and the Saxons came from!:O: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Anglo.Saxon.migration.5th.cen.jpg/280px-Anglo.Saxon.migration.5th.cen.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anglo.Saxon.migration.5th.cen.jpg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/2004_sutton_hoo_01.JPG/260px-2004_sutton_hoo_01.JPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2004_sutton_hoo_01.JPG)HOO do YOO think U R anyhow?! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_law) The judicial functions of the Anglo-Saxon legal system was mainly practiced by courts. Once a charge had been brought, it had to be heard by a court which would decide whether or not a crime had been committed...All shires (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shire), or counties, were subdivided into hundreds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_(county_division)). These hundreds were subdivided into tithings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithing). The three type of division had three types of representatives as well: the tithings had a tithingman, the hundreds a hundredman and the shires a shire-reeve. ( ie: the Sheriff...or "how the west was won" BBY):shucks:

Buddahaid

09-13-17, 04:45 PM

He may be referring to Napoleonic Code. I think the burden of proof is different.

biosthetique

09-14-17, 09:27 AM

That info wasn't established at that time. When he posted that it still looked like Nautilus had accidentally sunk with no fatalities.

That is interesting indeed, because the tittle of the thread is "UC3 Nautilus has sunk - Madsen rescued - charged with murder of journalist".

Rockin Robbins

09-14-17, 09:51 AM

I think having best wishes for Peter would be best served by extraditing him to Texas, where they know how to treat murdering sociopaths. To all appearances, Peter has been calmly manipulating all who wish him well from the beginning, calmly stepping off the sub as he sank it, calmly explaining that it is a shame that the sub is gone but he is fine, that Kim was put safely ashore.

Now he needs a little calmly administered Texas final medication. Europe is much too "enlightened" to understand that some have forfeited their right to live.

Obltn Strand

09-14-17, 10:24 AM

I think our way is better. 12 years in max security prison and rest of natural life in prisoners mental asylum drooling in one's lap. Easier to return convict back to society if founded not quilty.

But let's court do it's job first and if their system is similar to ours, two levels are required until he is/isn't quilty.

Mr Quatro

09-14-17, 10:29 AM

Schroeder

09-14-17, 10:47 AM

That is interesting indeed, because the tittle of the thread is "UC3 Nautilus has sunk - Madsen rescued - charged with murder of journalist".

Peter has been rescued, however the status of the other people who were with him are unknown.
At that point it wasn't clear that someone had actually died.

biosthetique

09-14-17, 11:55 AM

Breaking radio silence to inform you all that last night Peter Madsen and his crew encountered a problem with the ballast tank in the Nautilus which developed into a major issue and unfortunately the submarine sunk.
Peter has been rescued, however the status of the other people who were with him are unknown.

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=da&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnyheder.tv2.dk%2Fsamfund%2F2017-08-11-rystet-ubaadsejer-reddet-i-koege-bugt-jeg-er-ked-af-det-men-okay

My best wishes to Peter at this difficult time and I hope that if there are others missing that they are found swiftly and Nautilus is able to be refloated in due course.

Ok that is a beauty.
Oberon creates a thread called "UC3 Nautilus has sunk - Madsen rescued - charged with murder of journalist". Then, he posted "My best wishes to Peter at the difficult time". And now Schroeder defends Oberon by pretending that Oberon did not know at the time he created the thread, that Peter was charged with murder. But this is Oberon that created the tittle of that thread "UC3 Nautilus has sunk - Madsen rescued - charged with murder of journalist".
WAOW!:Kaleun_Applaud:

biosthetique

09-14-17, 11:57 AM

At that point it wasn't clear that someone had actually died.

Really?...If nobody actually died yet, why would there be someone charged with murder? The tittle of Oberon's thread is "UC3 Nautilus has sunk - Madsen rescued - charged with murder of journalist".

Von Due

09-14-17, 12:02 PM

The title was changed as events unfolded. The original topic title did not mention murder as there was no indication of it at that time. This whole issue is a non-issue and unnecessary.

Onkel Neal

09-14-17, 12:58 PM

Easy there. I changed thread title several days after the thread was started.

biosthetique

09-14-17, 01:02 PM

The title was changed as events unfolded. The original topic title did not mention murder as there was no indication of it at that time. This whole issue is a non-issue and unnecessary.

I think that when a journalist is killed it is an issue, as it is unnecessary to kill journalist.

Now if the title was updated as events unfolded how come it did not read "Nautilus sunk and raised". In the title it just says "SUNK".

This whole issue is an issue and necessary to remind us the value of journalism and in any country of the world.

Sailor Steve

09-14-17, 02:09 PM

Now if the title was updated as events unfolded how come it did not read "Nautilus sunk and raised". In the title it just says "SUNK".
So, you based a whole argument against Oberon on the title of the thread, and when told the title had been changed, rather than apologize you complain that it wasn't changed the way you would have done it. What was the point of the tirade against another member in the first place?

It looks to me like you were wrong and just don't want to admit it.

Onkel Neal

09-14-17, 02:37 PM

Rockin Robbins

09-14-17, 02:42 PM

Easy there. I changed thread title several days after the thread was started.
And to be sure, the charge of murder came before any of the basis for the charge was out in the open. Europeans are closer to the vest with information than we are in the US. Often it keeps the innocent from being convicted. Many times it results in the conviction of someone who would be found not guilty in the US.

We've seen the injustice that can happen when cases are tried in the press, which has no stock in the truth, only sales means anything to them.

biosthetique

09-14-17, 03:25 PM

Yes. No one is dismissing the tragedy or excusing Madsen. Oberon posted his comments before there was any info about the journalist. I changed the thread title. Your appropriate response should be, "Oh, I understand now".

Your thread was made at 10:58am and I made mine at 11:02am. When I started my post I did not see yours as you asked to go easy. But since it does not seem to make any difference...

Oh I understand now how changing the title of a thread without mentioning it has been modified and updated can create confusion, because if it had not been changed I would not have posted in the first place. If someone should apologize to Oberon it should not be me, because I am not the one that put him in such difficult situation where he was made to appear as someone supporting someone charged with murder!....
So, yes, I understand now, but do you understand now what it creates when thread tittles are changed after the fact?

Sailor Steve

09-14-17, 03:44 PM

If someone should apologize to Oberon it should not be me, because I am not the one that put him in such difficult situation where he was made to appear as someone supporting someone charged with murder!....
Let's see... When you first posted the thread was 15 pages long and had more than 200 posts, and yet not one person had a problem with this until you. It looks to me like you read the title and the first post and started on the attack without reading the rest of the thread first.

So, yes, I understand now, but do you understand now what it creates when thread tittles are changed after the fact?
Since you are the only one who had any problem with this, I'd say the problem lies directly with you.

Just my opinion, of course.

Rockin Robbins

09-14-17, 04:20 PM

So, yes, I understand now, but do you understand now what it creates when thread tittles are changed after the fact?
I understand perfectly. It creates clarity.

biosthetique

09-14-17, 07:31 PM

Actually that thread was created the 08/11/17. Oberon thread and some others were created the 08/11 and here is an article dating from the 08/11 that explains that Madsen was charged with murder.
http://news.sky.com/story/woman-missing-after-inventors-home-made-submarine-sinks-near-copenhagen-10983700

Some of you can make all the fuss you want and use it as a smoke screen, but I understand all too well some people support. That is sickening!

The 08/11 the date of that thread Madsen was charged with Murder!!!!...That is all I have to say!

Buddahaid

09-14-17, 07:32 PM

Actually, you don't.

Sean C

09-14-17, 07:57 PM

Some of you can make all the fuss you want and use it as a smoke screen, but I understand all too well some people support. That is sickening!

Seriously? After everything has been explained to you, you refuse to let go of this accusation? I've only been on this forum for a very short time, but even I can tell you that no one here was aware of all the details when the thread was created.

It seems your only goal is to make the other poster look like an ass. Unfortunately for you, your arrogance blinds you from seeing that what you are actually accomplishing is the exact opposite.

Oberon

09-14-17, 08:46 PM

Nothing to do with me, my thread title was 'UC3 Nautilus has sunk - Madsen rescued' IIRC, Neal decided to add the rest.

Onkel Neal

09-14-17, 10:58 PM

Your thread was made at 10:58am and I made mine at 11:02am. When I started my post I did not see yours as you asked to go easy. But since it does not seem to make any difference...

Oh I understand now how changing the title of a thread without mentioning it has been modified and updated can create confusion, because if it had not been changed I would not have posted in the first place. If someone should apologize to Oberon it should not be me, because I am not the one that put him in such difficult situation where he was made to appear as someone supporting someone charged with murder!....
So, yes, I understand now, but do you understand now what it creates when thread tittles are changed after the fact?

Fair enough, I apologize if the title change was confusing. You make a good point.