0/10 for new Microsoft laptop

[Skybird]

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Teardown/92915

It makes me sick when reading about such garbage products like this. It shows what a gang of ruthless dirtbags Microsoft has become. With Windows now being not more than a a walking corpus and Microsoft's online "services" getting brutalised by Google, it is clear to see that Microsoft - by means of quality and customer orientation - is just a living corpus, a shadow of its former self. If you throw your money after such crap - selber schuld.

Windows is dead. And Microsoft should be dead.

Not the link to their teardown of the last Surface. Not much better junk it is.

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Pro+5+Teardown/92362

[edgar]

Laptop $700 reviews http://pc4u.org/best-gaming-laptop-under-700-dollars/

[Reece]

You're right Skybird, what a load of crap, a small load though!!:yep:

[vienna]

Meh...

The Surface is what it is: a device designed for mundane people who want to do mundane things. It is by no means intended as a high-power, high-end laptop, and it is certainly not intended as a power game device. If you want to do more or less everyday activities, then the Surface should suffice. If you want to do advanced graphics, gaming, or, even, complex business applications, you need something else. Buying a Surface for something it wasn't intended to do is like buying a Smart Car and then complaining about its acceleration ability and/or its cargo capacity...

Also, I have seen much made of the inability to service or upgrade the Surface: again, the intended market for the device(s) is the same market that changes cell phones every few years, among other consumer products, and who are not prone to upgrade their existing devices, and who just buy a new device whenever the device goes out of fashion or fails...

It is what it is and nothing more...



<O>

[Reece]

It is what it is and nothing more...
That sums it up nicely!!:yep:

[Skybird]

If you do only everyday easy stuff and no gaming, you do not need a Surface at all. Plus it is hoepless overpriced, at least last time I checked . And then it has plenty of tehcnical problems and issues, with battery, with display... Google it. Lousy production quality, for overpriced charge.

[Skybird]

Oh, I just have read it, the latest Surface Pro again come with many problems and issues. :doh:
Again the battery, and this time bluetooth problems as well.

Do. Not Buy.

Reece, on your description of people willing to pay and buy as often as possible, this guy agrees with you, probably:

http://www.computerworld.com/article/3200678/android/are-android-bug-fixes-worth-510-when-buying-a-phone.html

I buy as rarely as possible. I hate needing to relearn things and reinstall again and repated, repeat again and again, and the money it is not worth it to me. I try to choose my thingsa accordingly, so that I think they give me a long lifespan.I have started to accept that I do not stay state-of-the-art anymore. Its a race you cannot win, and why turning older while being tired?

[Rockin Robbins]

The killer on these is that they are strictly disposable: not repairable. Your average lithium ion battery is good for three years and that's it. Keyboard problem? Toss the machine. Monitor damaged? Toss the machine. Need more RAM? Sucks to be you. If the slightest thing goes wrong with this box of horse excrement, it goes in the trash.

I don't mind computers going in the trash. That's how I got my HP all-in-one computer. A customer struggled with it for two years and never could get it to run right. He finally took it to me and I diagnosed a bad hard drive. He said, it's trash, I'm buying a Chromebook.

I put in a new hard drive and have a new toy. That can never happen with one of these piece of trash Surface identity crisis machines. Typical Microsoft "take your money and stab you in the back" business practice. Of course the press is all wetting itself about how great the Surface is.

No thanks.

[Rockin Robbins]

And it appears that they have inherent design problems:
New Surface Pro 2017 shuts off unexpectedly? Return it while you can (http://www.computerworld.com/article/3206276/computer-hardware/new-surface-pro-2017-shuts-off-unexpectedly-return-it-while-you-can.html)



These things which are not repairable are shutting down without notice.


Forums are ablaze with complaints about the new Surface Pro—the one that doesn’t have a model number but is generally known as Surface Pro 2017. Becca05 on the Microsoft Answers forum says (https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/forum/surfpronew-surfperf/surface-pro-2017-turning-off-or-hibernating/e6a77aad-1f1d-4df3-ac15-a62f1b6fb0f8?page=20&msgId=d90ac569-3c14-48fb-807f-57e1176d247f):
For some reason my new Surface is shutting off randomly. I check the setting and a few other things but [it] still randomly turns off without warning. I'm losing some of my school work because of it.
That thread has 231 replies, and 250 people marked “Me Too.”
Microsoft employee BryanH has responded (https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/forum/surfpronew-surfperf/surface-pro-2017-turning-off-or-hibernating/e6a77aad-1f1d-4df3-ac15-a62f1b6fb0f8?page=20&msgId=d90ac569-3c14-48fb-807f-57e1176d247f):
We are aware of a small group of customers reporting a scenario with their new Surface Pro in which the device inadvertently hibernates. We are investigating this issue.
That left many Surface Pro 2017 customers fuming. Calling hundreds of active complainers a "small group" tends to raise all sorts of hackles.


So here's Microsoft jumping into the same bed with Samsung, making devices too small, too inadequately cooled, not repairable and darned expensive. Hope people literally have money to burn!:up:

[Rockin Robbins]

And in keeping with it's self-proclaimed hero status for standing up for the American worker:
Microsoft's Wilsonville jobs are going to China, underscoring travails of domestic tech manufacturing (http://www.oregonlive.com/silicon-forest/index.ssf/2017/07/microsofts_wilsonville_jobs_ar.html)

As the article says: the only surprising thing is that they tried to make its computers in the U.S. in the first place.
(http://www.oregonlive.com/silicon-forest/index.ssf/2017/07/microsofts_wilsonville_jobs_ar.html)

[Rockin Robbins]

Looking at a 1TB Surface Pro 2017? Make sure you know what you’re getting (http://www.computerworld.com/article/3216499/microsoft-windows/looking-at-a-1tb-surface-pro-2017-make-sure-you-know-what-youre-getting.html)



Ready to drop $2900+ on a non-repairable laptop with soldered in RAM, SSDs (be careful about the plural there), CPU and other normally replaceable items? Ready to be married to the Windows 10 fiasco just to put icing on the cake?


Now comes the revelation that these computers are Siamese Twins, equipped not with a 1 TB SSD, but with two 512s cobbled together in a way that breaks Windows reinstallation and causes the default setup to defrag the SSDs once a week. This is the surest way to kill expensive, non-replaceable hard drives. There is a cumbersome workaround for the defrag debacle but none so far that lets you reinstall Windows and see both hard drives as a single device. Hey, if it breaks you're just supposed to trash it and spend another $3000. If you can't afford "excellence" tough toenails.


Yes, it gets worse. Read the story. Buying a Microsoft piece of horse squeeze is just as bad as buying an Apple piece of horse squeeze.


If you want something designed well for a third the price, get a Lenovo Thinkpad. I've bought five of them for customers and everybody's happy, including me if I have to work on them.

[Rockin Robbins]

Running a Win10 beta build on a Surface Pro 3? Don’t shut down (https://www.computerworld.com/article/3226306/microsoft-windows/running-a-win10-beta-build-on-a-surface-pro-3-dont-shut-down.html)

Somehow Microsoft managed to release the latest beta build, 16288.1, to both the Fast and the Slow ring. If you install it on your Surface Pro 3 and try to reboot, you’ll see a “Surface” on a black screen, the dot-chasing “working” icon, and exactly nothing else. My SP3 has been bricked since yesterday, and the dots are still chasing each other.

How, you might question, could this have happened?

It's from Microsoft isn't is? What exactly did you EXPECT would happen?

[1mPHUNit0]

Lenovo Legion or msi gt62.....to me are now the best

[Rockin Robbins]

I'm not a laptop guy at all. Desktops are the only long-term computing solution there is because each component is standardized, with dozens or hundreds of companies competing to produce that part better and cheaper.

If my GPU takes a crap I have hundreds of choices, each of which will plug in and just work. Motherboard? Same. Memory? Same. Optical Drive? Same. All components are instantly available, cheap and better quality than a laptop.

My main computer, which has had a motherboard malfunction, was built in 2007. Since then it has had three motherboards, six processors, four video cards, at least half a dozen RAM configurations.....it goes on and on. A desktop is forever rebuildable, forever reconfigurable, forever useful.

Standard practice for even a high end laptop is that all parts are proprietary, no sources available except for the OEM, and they only stock parts for a year. After that, as parts sell out they will never again be available. Your $1000 laptop becomes a boat anchor. It will NEVER be worth using in ten years, as my desktop has been.

I fix laptops. Every time I get tempted by one of those pretty things, I am reminded, by having to tell a customer that they are the proud owner of an expensive paperweight, that I don't want one. For $400 I can see having one. For the over $2000 that Microsoft wants for theirs that you can't replace an SSD, RAM, a keyboard or display panel in, no thanks. Consumer Reports says a quarter of them won't last a year.

[Skybird]

My main computer, which has had a motherboard malfunction, was built in 2007. Since then it has had three motherboards, six processors, four video cards, at least half a dozen RAM configurations.....it goes on and on. A desktop is forever rebuildable, forever reconfigurable, forever useful.

Counting by the above, one could say you have had not one but several desktops. ;) :D

My current rig is from 2010, and has seen the gfx board replaced once. Its now about getting retired, I await my new platform in a couple of days, the order has been placed. Costs twice as much as my last two systems together, but should be fast like hell and offer all performance reserves needed to test out VR in all seriousnness. I demand it to hold together for at least 6 -7 years - as long as my old one did. Its a pure simulation and game console, nothing else.

Windows 10, here I come. Hooray. :doh: The only way to protect privacy under Windows is to maintain no privacy-relevant data and habits under Windows. Windows for gaming, Linux for everythign else. The onyl thing Microsoft can spy on, is my Steam login and the games I have. Not even my Paypal login will be used under Windows.

i7 8700K, 1080TI - fast enough for VR, eh? :D It should also be quite stealthy. Usually I would have stuck with my long proven method of always buying one generation behind to get a good compromise between performance and costs, but this time I decided to sin in luxury. I did it even twice this time: for the first time, and also probably the last time ever. I do not complain about the now to be retired system, I think 7 years is okay. It based on y superoslid Asus motherboard, and the almost legenadary i5 2500K, one of the best bang-for-the-buck ratios ever offered by Intel , and superb quality I think. It served me well. And it was W7, which I really liked.

[Rockin Robbins]

Counting by the above, one could say you have had not one but several desktops. ;) :D
But I have not bought new optical drives, keyboards, mice, monitors, video cards, cases, power supplies......all the stuff you buy over when you buy a new machine. You don't really need it. Those still all work in your old machine. And it takes a lot of money to buy stuff you don't require.

I spent all my money on the core components that provide performance: motherboard, CPU, RAM. That's the difference between buying a new machine and refreshing an existing one.

You have 100% control over every single component. You only have to buy those few components you wish to upgrade. You don't have to junk the case and all those components which are still functioning perfectly well.

[Skybird]

Well, I keep quite some of my old periphals as well: monitor, printer, keyboard, mouse, external drive, modem.

CPU, motherboard, gfx, to me form the most obvious performance characteristic of a system. Replace them all, and what you deal with is a new system in my book. You may put it inside an old shell - nevertheless it is a new performer.

You change your coats - you look different, but you stay the same person. Give your coat to somebody else, put another person into your coat - and you deal with somebody who happens to look like wearing your old coat, but nevertheless is somebody totally different from yourself. :)

[Onkel Neal]

My only complaint on Win10 is, as you have mentioned, the telemetry and its attempts to bankrupt me through massive, unexpected updates. For the most part that's manageable through options, though I still suspect every now and then it downloads a large update secretly (my bandwidth useage can be very consistent for months and then out of the blue I get the dreaded "You have used 50% of your bandwidth" message with 25 days to go.)

Oh, and the horrible Metrosexual UI, which can be easily replaced with Classic Shell (http://www.classicshell.net/):Kaleun_Applaud:

[Skybird]

I see that Classic Shell also is avialabole for Windows 7. I wonder why? Isn't it emulating the looks of Windows 7 anyway?

What I would want, once the thing arrives next week, is the option to have shortcuts to the exes of my games on desktop, and a background slideshow of my liking/screenshots, like one used to have in W7. That, and system and option access a la Windows 7 style.

Since I will only launch games, telemetry is not that much my concern, I will reduce and supress it as much as possible and switch Cortana off, of course, and then will not mind for the remaining almost 2000 variables that Windows nevertheless phones home, even with all privacy options activated. Since nothing else will be stored on this rig and no other activity will take place on it, they cnanot violate my privacy more than to find out what games I have played and the password to my Steam account, thats all.

Actually I am a bit more worried about learnign to find what I need and want to tune in Windows 10, some things will be handled differently than in W7, I expect. I have become a lazy dog, learning new things no longer is to my liking. :)

Looking forward to VR, however. I have waited and did not embark on the early development kits, but with Oculus now being affordable (450 Euro in Germany with both handles), I think I have waited long enough. Now I want to see with my own eyes!

P.S. Am I the only one with a strong antipathy against these talking, voice-sensible "personal assistants"? I hate the mere idea of it, and what they show of it in TV commercials, Google and who else offers them, I find simply - ridiculous. They celebrate it as if it were the finally discovered meaning of life. To me, it simply is - ridiculous. Unneeded. Unnerving. Gimme a mouse anytime. Mouse rules. Babbletoys are like one of these gifts you may get on your birthday, and you unpack it, see what it is and you ask yourself silently "Why me?"

[Rockin Robbins]

Oh, and the horrible Metrosexual UI, which can be easily replaced with Classic Shell (http://www.classicshell.net/):Kaleun_Applaud:

Yes, it is ugly. I put Classic Shell on my wife's Win 10 computer and she's been mostly happy with it so far. I have her set up as a metered connection so we can choose when she downloads updates and can actually postpone them for 30 days. And she's on Spybot Anti-beacon with Microsoft data-scraping servers shut down.

All this can be undone in a minute with a rogue MS Update though, so it's only a temporary position of relative ownership of her machine.

[Rockin Robbins]

P.S. Am I the only one with a strong antipathy against these talking, voice-sensible "personal assistants"?

No Skybird. I was playing with my brother's Alexa the other day and most of the time her response is "I didn't understand what you want." She's the best of the personal assistants so that tells you what they are worth.

The only time I think they are useful is if you are driving and want to call someone without touching a cell phone. Even then the impersonal thing doesn't need to talk to you.

[Cyborg322]

No Skybird. I was playing with my brother's Alexa the other day and most of the time her response is "I didn't understand what you want." She's the best of the personal assistants so that tells you what they are worth.

The only time I think they are useful is if you are driving and want to call someone without touching a cell phone. Even then the impersonal thing doesn't need to talk to you.

Utter nonsense !

The other day I was depressed, I told Cortana that I was suicidal. She told me I needed to speak to someone

She saved my life

:03:

[d@rk51d3]

Talking to yourself doesn't count. :)

[Skybird]

No Skybird. I was playing with my brother's Alexa the other day and most of the time her response is "I didn't understand what you want." She's the best of the personal assistants so that tells you what they are worth.

The only time I think they are useful is if you are driving and want to call someone without touching a cell phone. Even then the impersonal thing doesn't need to talk to you.
I can understand talking navigation devices when yiour ride a car. Or the benefit for people with handicapped eyesight, i observed that myself during a trainride one year ago, an old women, almost blind, who called in a taxi for her arrival, and called someboy else to tell her the train was delayed. Okay. Disadvantage: the whole train compartment participated in her private life.

But usually: normal people? What does Cortana do for me that I van not do with greater speed and precision with a mouse? Worse: when buying something like this Amazon cylinder that was prgrammede to react to the speaking out of the magical speel "Alexa", - only to tell it to play a song, or ordering it to tell me the weather?

Hype.

Specialised purposes in clearly defined environments, okay, I can image and have read enough science ficiton to understand that there cna be imagined scneairos, when it is nic to have a tlakign compouter. But they act todfay as if private households could not live anymorte wiothout these things. As a matter of fact I find the scneairo of commanding a computer to do thre stuff I want it to do via voice, much more annoying, than to use a graphical mouse interface handled via mouse (or gestures).

The next big thing, they say. I do not see it.

[propbeanie]

"Talk-to-text" has been around since the days of the Creative Labs Soundblaster 16, like 1992, if not before, but it stills gets confused. My auto mechanic guy uses it on his cell phone all the time. I send him a text, typing it in. Takes me about five minutes (I'm slow) for a four line text. He uses talk-to-text to respond, then send three more texts for all the "typos" it does from mis-interpreting what he'd said... One of my least-favorite phrases from our "talking" GPS device (which we nicknamed "Amelia") "recalculating...". Next would be "... in one quarter mile, make a U-Turn"... Traffic laws, what traffic laws?... Of course, another good one is "Turn left in one half mile and reach destination" slight pause "Turn left"... haven't even traveled 500 feet!... Add in AI to that?... I do not like talking devices. They act like a distracted mother-in-law...

[Reece]

I love my GPS, and yes it speaks pretty much how you describe but you start to understand it after a while and you don't have to take your eyes off the road. Sometimes it stuffs up but not often, once it had me driving around in circles!!:oops::doh:

[Cyborg322]

Mercedes Benz Voice Activation

Julie Joiner, Sales and Leasing Consultant at Mercedes Benz of Naples demonstrates voice Activation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnYv1lox4L0

Sorry She did not sell it to me, in fact I'm surprised she did not crash the car, made it sound so complicated its untrue and the delayed responses ,.... Well judge for yourself

[Cyborg322]

Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear Take on Voice Activation


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2mJO4rRjA0


:hmmm: Somewhere in between the 2 takes is probably true, it is getting better

[Skybird]

Mercedes Benz Voice Activation

Julie Joiner, Sales and Leasing Consultant at Mercedes Benz of Naples demonstrates voice Activation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnYv1lox4L0

Sorry She did not sell it to me, in fact I'm surprised she did not crash the car, made it sound so complicated its untrue and the delayed responses ,.... Well judge for yourself

Nerve-killing. - The day I need to handle a computer in this way, will be the day it flies right out of my window. Reminds of voice-bot on a telephone-line.
Also, these cars constantly, always phone home. A complete profile of your movement habits is being established. And you might be surprised what a lot they learn about you from that alone. I saw it once described in a docu on TV. It was frightening how far-reaching conclusions they could reach by such data. Combine that with info on your credit cards, your cellphone, and you turn into a crystal-clear human.

Did you know that it takes I think less than 30 such data setpoints/coordinates to identify you amongst all humans on Earth, with higher confidence than your finger prints...? If somebody means it bad with you and gets access to these datapools, he can turn your life into hell by abusing or manipulating them, like you forge a digital photo via photoshop.

People jjst do not know what they wish for when celebrating this "progress".

I recommend Osmand. Allows offline navigation without needing to be online, you can save data and maps on the device, must not access the web. in urban areas, the map material is the best you can get. It gets fa rmore often updated than many others. Google's maps are garbage, compared to Osmand. Free version is avialable, try it. The navigation, as far as I have tried it, is perfectly understandable in talking, and flawless (I use it to record tracks and study maps in advance, not so much for live navigation).

[BarracudaUAK]

...

But usually: normal people? What does Cortana do for me that I van not do with greater speed and precision with a mouse? Worse: when buying something like this Amazon cylinder that was prgrammede to react to the speaking out of the magical speel "Alexa", - only to tell it to play a song, or ordering it to tell me the weather?

Hype.

Specialised purposes in clearly defined environments, okay, I can image and have read enough science ficiton to understand that there cna be imagined scneairos, when it is nic to have a tlakign compouter. But they act todfay as if private households could not live anymorte wiothout these things. As a matter of fact I find the scneairo of commanding a computer to do thre stuff I want it to do via voice, much more annoying, than to use a graphical mouse interface handled via mouse (or gestures).

The next big thing, they say. I do not see it.

"Talk-to-text" has been around since the days of the Creative Labs Soundblaster 16, like 1992, if not before, but it stills gets confused. ...



When I got X-plane 5 way back when (I don't remember the date), to get the in-game air traffic controller on the radio to talk, you had to install the voice stuff.

Which turned out to be voice recognition.
I could do anything, move the mouse, press keys, even start programs.

Set the "Listening" activation to "computer", then spoke with Mr. Scott's (from Star-Trek) accent, Similar to the way he does in Star Trek 4.:haha:
"Computer" 'now listening' in the bottom right. "start half-life/homeworld/etc".

It was useful in certain situations. I could boot the computer, walk to get a drink from the kitchen, and say "computer, start <program>" and it would be loading by the time I got back, and then I could say "stop listening" and it would basically stop the program and remove the load on the CPU (my 500mhz or my 1.4ghz system).

I liked it, but you had to do a bit of training, and it didn't need to call home.
All the voice stuff on my phone is off, and access is all set to "denied" as well as no background bandwidth usage. Automatic updates are off as well.
Noticed a massive drop in data usage after the first 3 days that I turned all of it off.
Even if I'm watching a ton of youtube on my phone, I don't get anywhere near my bandwidth limit.

Also, Command: Aces of the Deep has voice recognition with the game.
That was cool, "all stop". "Yes, sir."
It hasn't worked since Win95 though (it might have worked in 98, but it's been a while).

Still, as Skybird said, I'm faster with a mouse.
It was more of a "range" thing, I could use the PC while not sitting in front of it.

Barracuda

[u crank]

The latest list I Find https://guruverdict.com/best-gaming-laptops-under-700-dollars/ Hope this helps you

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