Manchester Arena 'explosion'

[STEED]

Police warn people to stay away from the Manchester Arena area following reports of an explosion.http://news.sky.com/story/live-manchester-arena-explosion-10889465

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40007886

Police at this stage are not saying this is a bomb.

[STEED]

23:46 Greater Manchester Police have confirmed a number of confirmed fatalities

This is now looking bad.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4531940/Emergency-services-rush-Manchester-Arena.html?ITO=1490


http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-security-manchester-idUKKBN18I2OV

[eddie]

Its terrible news, thoughts go out to all those injured. So tragic.

[Catfish]

Just saw it in Reuters :nope:
My condolences. This is terrible, i hope the manipulators can be found and sentenced.

[Dowly]

:nope:

[Jimbuna]

Absolutely sickening, such a waste of life.

Deepest condolences to all those who have lost loved ones.

Just on the slightest chance anyone involved might read this post:

There are over 60 children without guardians at the Holiday Inn near the venue, if you're missing or can't get hold of a loved one ring 07896711298.

Chloe Rutherford (17) and Liam Curry (19) from South Shields are two of those still missing.

http://i.imgur.com/Pdu8WzR.jpg

[Skybird]

German news rang the alarm bell last night long before BBC had a headline. Went to bed and thought it would show to be a terrible accident, gas explosion or something. Did not expect it to become this much worse.

I think its safe to bet that this was no radical pro or anti Brexiteer, no militant Buddhist and no faithful Jew and now vegan Christian. But somebody else.

Damn Islam. Yeah, I take it for granted that this is what it is about. It should become law that every quran must display a dangerous hazard symbol on its front cover: "Warning, content is dangerous for your mental health. Should not be handled by males." Maybe considering to lock them away in cat-5 laboratories at the CDC in Atlanta. Heck, even Antrax and Ebola are not known to be this highly infectous.

[propbeanie]

A family we know from our sons doing martial arts in a neighborhood dojo, the wife is from Manchester, and was still trying to contact her family last night. As far as she knows, none of her family would have been there, but there had been so much ongoing telephone traffic in the area, she hadn't been able to contact anyone by 11 Eastern last night when I went to sleep. This kind of tragedy just leaves a hole in a persons heart, why? Though I do know why, I still ask the question... Our thoughts and prayers are extended, with a particular focus on our brothers and sisters of Manchester, England - humans, no matter the "diety" (or lack thereof) you are associated with...

[MGR1]

Typical - go for a soft target. It's what the cowards do.

Two girls from the Isle of Barra still unaccounted for: LINK (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40011126).

Mike.

[Cybermat47]

22 confirmed fatalities.

Police are reporting that the perpetrator died at the scene.

A Man has been arrested in connection to the attack.

There has been a possible second attack at Arndale Shopping Centre, also in Manchester.

[Commander Wallace]

Another cowardly act and more innocent lives lost. Hoping the perpetrators are found and brought to justice. Deepest sympathies to those hurt and their families.

[STEED]

IS has claimed responsibility as reported on SKY News.

[Catfish]

IS has claimed responsibility as reported on SKY News.

"Claimed responsibility" my donkey.
If someone called someone to claim this, one should be able to follow this connection, or all this MIxyz hubbub and eavesdropping is obviously worth nothing.

Why do they do that, i wonder. Killing innocents, i mean you cannot accuse the assassin for cowardice since he killed himself. Suppression of muslims? Which ones, Sunnis or Shiites? The US helps the Sunnis since WW2, and now Trump again. Just of all those Saudi-arabian Wahabites are a special kind of religious nuts though, and even worse than the other branches. Does not make it in the news somehow.
Retaliation for drone attacks also killing innocents? Enough videos showing the killing of children with drones, and they call it collateral damage. Perfect way to breed new terrorists.
But whatever, after some radicalisation i guess you have no reasons, and you need none to do anything :nope:

[STEED]

Manchester Arena attack: Islamic State claims it carried out bombing

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/22/manchester-arena-evacuated-reports-gunshots-explosion/

[eddie]

Youngest victim I have read about so far, was just 8 years old. Its just so sad to learn of this.

[Nippelspanner]

Rinse and repeat.

Somewhere in Europe a Muslim answers his call for duty and everybody is so very "shocked!", while on the next day the officials blubber about not giving in to fear, how city XY is standing so very strong together, and other shallow, meaningless banter paired with the usual thoughts & prayers that won't do anything.
Who is Theresa May to claim that "this won't break the British"?
She's living safe and secure, she doesn't have to identify the dismembered bodies of her loved ones in consequence of just another spike in cultural enrichment™.

If you let a huge percentage of people with a radical ideology that hates the west, seeks to exploit and ultimately destroy it, into your western country, people will die. This is happening for decades now, with a trend that is rising relentlessly, so can we please stop being so very shocked and surprised that this could happen, by now?
We have reached a point in Europe where this seems a little silly, in all honesty.

Oh, and do not forget, the most important thing now is to make sure we comfort ourselves with the fact that "it's not all of them!" and "these aren't real Muslims!" and similar nonsense.
It worked before, so:

Rinse and repeat.

[mapuc]

The most important thing is......that people keep on voting on the politicians that is directly or indirectly responsible for this.

It is the action or should I say the lack of action from our European politicians.

That's how I see it.

Markus

[Nippelspanner]

The most important thing is......that people keep on voting on the politicians that is directly or indirectly responsible for this.

It is the action or should I say the lack of action from our European politicians.

That's how I see it.

Markus
I agree. You did catch the sarcasm about "the most important thing" in my post before yours, didn't you? :)

[mapuc]

I agree. You did catch the sarcasm about "the most important thing" in my post before yours, didn't you? :)

Guilty as charged.

Markus

[Skybird]

I just say I am shocked. Are you two against peace in our time, multiculturalism and tolerance for hypersensitive Muslim sentiments ? Mind you, most victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslims, and the terrorists are just Muslimis, not Muslims. Islam means peace. And the crusades, do not forget the crusades. And the Cordoba caliphate. And hallal pizza. Where would we be without ahlal pizza? Sorry, it seems I had to much of some diabloic alohol. Alohol has nothing to do with it, and Isalaham has nothing to do with it. Its all the same. Prost.

[propbeanie]

The ~Crusades~ are the reason for this?...

[Nippelspanner]

People, activate your sarcasm radars. :ping:

[Skybird]

The ~Crusades~ are the reason for this?...

Yeah, sure. Its allways all our fault, you see. And Napoleon in Eypt. And the big Woodstock at Tour and Poitiers. The denial of Vienna. Its all our fault, I tell ya. I mean, what the heck where people thinking when offending Muhammad all the time? We, our people back then should have just converted, and not resisting to the conquest and destruction of our culture. Look at India. They did like I recommend, had millions and millions mowed down, their primitive culture almost replaced with modern Islam , and that is why today there is Pakistan and the adventure theme park in Kashmir and nuclear weapons and pathfinder holiday camps for the boys who want to play The Lord of the Flies. Is liking all this really too much asked for? Kneel down, stick your rear end high into the sky and we all could live peacefully together again immediately.

[Bubblehead1980]

Years or irresponsible immigration policies have allowed much of Europe to be infiltrated by the ideology of savages. SAD SAD SAD

[Von Due]

The way we are pretending this
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/08/yemen-us-raid-al-qaida-counter-terrorism-strategy-trump
or this
https://newrepublic.com/article/115353/civilian-casualties-drone-strikes-why-we-know-so-little
plays absolutely no part in it, and throwing a hissing fit every time it's pointed out that it does indeed happen, and throwing a tantrum every time its pointed out that this is a recipe for extremism, is not lost on the rest of the world. Just saying.

When the choice is cheap oil, cheap gas for your car, cheap food, cheap clothes and sneakers and terrorist attacks

OR

more expensive oil, more expensive gas, food, clothes and sneakers, and fewer terrorist attacks,

do you think our Govts are going for the latter? How much are we willing to pay? Won't happen and not much but we are told to dream on, we can have the best of both worlds and nothing bad will happen. It's a dream of convenience and entitlement.

As for the attacks now, they are as horrifying as they always are, no matter where and how.

[Catfish]

^ Wait you don't say that we The West is somehow responsible for middle-east terrorism? England and the US never intervened in Persia, Iraq or Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan etc., and all those drones are flying humanitarian missons :doh:

Funny how just of all those military heads or politicians who always quote (mostly wrong) that "he who forgets the past is condemned to repeat it" never mention what their nation and military did before, in regions of the world they had no real legal right to be. Oil and gas, ore resources, weapon deals, and political influence against the "commies" anyone.

No i am not of the opinion that this justifies the killing of innocent people here or anywhere for whatever justification (religious or political), but it may be part of an explanation. Our meddling over there helped breed those terrorists, and the drone attacks killing more innocent people (including children) than criminals now give them the perfect pretense of retaliation.
BS of course, but we should know how easily minds can be manipulated.

The question is, what can we do about that?
If anyone here would be willing to reach out a hand, he's a traitor or a commie. Or he may be plain out rejected, even if he means it. Centuries of treason and military violence cannot be so easily be wiped out with a smile and an outstretched hand, with weapon lobbyists smiling in the background.
Even if someone here would really support such a policy for education and good long-term relationship it would take decades to see any improvement. Not that there is anything like that in the making, or thinking. Obama tried, but he failed, because of those pregone centuries of his own and other western nation's politics.

So, what next? Show strength? More drones? Will that help?

[Von Due]

What to do? I have no complete answers but pretending that this is a simple good vs evil thing, that this is a cultural thing, is not going to give a solution that excludes genocide.

Vote for those who oppose western interference with other sovereign states and watch how reality kicks in leaving those politicians impotent. Businesses and alliances matter, internally and internationally, national security is the front end of that, or in many cases the cover for actions done ranging from unethical to criminal. This is what we have been fighting for, not against.

Strong ciphers for the public is the best gift we ever gave terrorists and organized crime and the lobby and supporters of strong public ciphers have repeatedly stated that protection of these criminals and plotters is the price we have to pay for "freedom" in the digital world.

We have very much been part of the problem but we refuse to acknowledge that. What to do? Step one has to be that acknowledgement.

[Skybird]

The US war 2003 and the inapt handling of the time after, has created the IS. British mid east polcies from teh past have created the lines drawn on the maps, with help by the French and some more, forcing together many people who had open bills with each other since generations and until today.

But the hostile and racist content of the Quranic ideology forgoes all this . The ongoing Muslim conquest against Asia, India, Europe, was not provoked. The Sunni-Shia civil war was not provoked by Europe. The invasion of Spain and the balkans and Aegian region, was not provoked. The claim to raise a caliphate in christian Europe, was not provoked. The attack on Constantinople, was not provoked. The crusades started not as a provokation, but a defensive response against ongoing aggressiona nd conquest. to recapture territory that was lost to a hostile aggressor. Grenada wa sno pacifist multicultural place, but a place ruled by the sword of Islam and Jews and Chrstians subjugated, progroms were not uncommon, and they were banned froms ocial highe rlife and better jobs, and were discmrinated by the law. This is not what tolernce and multiculturalism is about.

The problem is not so much our past. We casted our shadows, yes - but most people today understood that, and do not do that anymore, do not want to do it anymore. We moved on, we developed beyiond the medieval. islam still is stuck in the dark age. Its evil is inherent to its genes in that it is alraedy founded and artuclated by Muhammad. War and raids and violence and intimidation and hate and persecution and fear is all that is his heritage.

So do not expect ever that somethign people comes from those following Muhammad and declaring his words holy. Islam is a warrior ideology, strength through totalitarian control and uniform unity. Ther eis no other military effort in the known history of man that ever was as far reaching and long-lasting, than Islam, and no other idoleogy, including Chrstianity, has ever brought so many wars and has ever destroyd so many other foreign cultures and has signed respnsible for the slaughteirng of so many people, like Islam.

And whn you rmeind of these simple histori fact, you get dmenised, criminlaised, bullied, threatened. Not only by them, but by our own media, authorities, laws, people.

The West is a mental asylum.

[Catfish]

Even if you completely rule out "the past" (which is bs since we live in the time heavily influenced by the past and still present politics, see Trump in Saudi Arabia), but let out ye olde innocent defensive crusades and so on, what about the present, happening right now?

Did you care to read the two links vonDue posted? What would you say if they accidentally kill your children because your neighbour might be an "insurgent". And it is not an isolated case. The hate that may derive from this has nothing to do with religion.

[propbeanie]

All I can say is "read history", like from the 7th century time frame. As for the US involvement, all I'll say is "Thomas Jefferson", and it did not involve oil... and what started "The Great War", and who was one of the main antagonists?... What was that empire called again?

[Catfish]

^ huh what has this to do with the UK and US manipulating governments in the middle east for oil in the 20ieth century, or with the drone war? :hmmm:

[Skybird]

What people like you simply do not want to see, Catfish, is that Islam is an ideology of a certain content that is like this, and not like that, and it is like this even without the West doing the one thing or the other thing: the modern West plays no role regarding what the content of the Quran is. Muhammad was what today would be called a warlord, plain and simple. Attatürk called him a murderous desert bandit, and not more. He attacked. He blackmailed. He started raids. He started wars. He bribed. He intimidated. He murdered. He called for racist discrimination. He mocked his followers when they expressed doubts about that it is right to now kill infidels. What message do you expect from such a person? The Oriental version of the sermon on the mount...?

[Von Due]

We can always start back in the 20th century with Britain and the Soviet Union co-invading Iran over oil, forcefully replacing the Shah with a puppet Shah. We can start with the despot Shah, the despot Saudi family and the inevitable reactions to those, leaving the Iranians as well as the Saudis squashed between an oppressive king and oppressive priests and religious nutters. The Shah and the Saudi kings must have studied King Leopold well. We can start with the nationalism that swept across Asia and Africa when the colonial times ended for pretty much all except France who till this day is heavily involved in several African countries with military precence as well as political pressure to secure resources like uranium. Or we can start with the nationalists and communists clashing in the 60's in Afghanistan and Pakistan and how the west and the USSR supported left and right as they pleased at any given moment. That's the 1960's not 60 AD. We can start with Israel and 1948, the birth of Pakistan out of India, Bangladesh too. The mess in the middle east the last decades. This is modern history. No need to look back at the Crusades to find enough reasons for extremism to get to terrorism. There are still old people alive today in Afghanistan who remember peace when men and women studied and worked side by side. There are now 2-3 generations who have seen nothing but continuous war, both civil war and invasions. To expect they will behave as if they had never seen war is lunacy.

EDIT Perhaps MI5 can get through where I fail:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1

[ValoWay]

Poverty, unemployment, especially youth unemployment in countries which keep producing new blood for terror organisations are a big issue..

Those people have no perspective in life.. I theorize that radical beliefs are often the only way out of it, pretty much like drug abuse in the western world.. Poor people in the west tend to become obese and watch TV all day, do drugs while in the middle east people join terrorists in order to find meaning in life.. Failed drone strikes et cetera certainly aren't helping with that tendency..

Life sucks for those (often young) people and false prophets cleverly use religion to steer their anger against the west while the rich keep getting richer on both sides.. Hitler in the 1930s and the great depression comes to mind here..

[mapuc]

One word

Sweden

Sweden is, what I know of, the most political correct country and have, what I know of, not being sending drones or trying to manipulate government i Middle east or North Africa

And still 5 innocent in Stockholm had to pay with their life due to some sick Islamic fanatic

When will people understand that these Islamist hate us. Hate our way of living and so on.

Markus

[Von Due]

One word

Sweden



From the article I linked, on the MI5 report on violent extremism in the UK:
• Those involved in British terrorism are not unintelligent or gullible, and nor are they more likely to be well-educated; their educational achievement ranges from total lack of qualifications to degree-level education. However, they are almost all employed in low-grade jobs.

• Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.

Any reason why Sweden would be any different?

[Nippelspanner]

Pointing at drones from the USA and thereby excusing the terror attacks in the name of Islam that happen daily, world wide, is nothing but short-sighted. Islam terrorizes everyone, everywhere. I doubt that Boko Haram, for example, does what it does because the Americans conduct drone strikes against women and children in Pakistan.

Drones sure are an issue, yes. There are two sides to them.
They are, on one side, taking out important figures, while on the other side they are used so recklessly, that they become a tool of propaganda, for Islam to recruit more murderers.
However, I'd like to see numbers that support the claim that these drones seriously play a noteworthy role in that.
I am sure they do not - and I totally do not condone the use of them, I criticized them here before, heavily.

Islam is Islam.
I wish people that blindly defend it, or the people that are "mislead" by it, would invest the time and energy into reading a few passages in it, instead of indirectly defending something they do not know yet. The topic is quite clear. The Quran is not as difficult as Muslims claim, which leads to a huge problem: You cannot trust any Muslim. Why? Because Muslims are allowed to lie to any non-Muslims if it helps their ideology to advance.

That is why you hear, over and over, how Islam is the religion of peace, while in the background you can hear explosions echo through Europe.
How does that add up? Oh right: Poor hijacked religion.
The "hijacked religion" nonsense can be swept away after reading it briefly.
Those who shed blood in the name of Allah, only do what their holy book tells them to do. Simple as that.

Want to know about Islam?
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

[Von Due]

If I want to know about Islam, I would perhaps have more than that particular source but I do re-read in that link the arguements certain people here have posted as their only arguements. A religion of peace? Nope, not any more than any other religion which means, it is as peaceful or warmongering as people want it to be, precicely like other religions.

Here's a tip: Read up on the tribal pre-Islamic Arab world, the world Mohammed grew up in, the world that most certainly shaped him. It was not a nice place at all for women, them having absolutely zero rights, or they had the same amount of rights as the men's sandals or toothpicks. Waging war like the best of them too, marrying kids, and if you belonged to the wrong clan, then your life was not worth much. It's on that background you can begin to look into Islam and see that Islam did not introduce these ideas. Does Islam promote it? Ask those who agree and the answer is yes. Ask those who disagree and they''ll say no. To claim there exists some sort of pan-Islamic agreement is ignorant. Look at the tribal Arab world and see if you can spot the hotspots in Saudi Arabia for instance. It is no coincidence that the leader of ISIS, the Taliban in Afghanistan, Al Quaeda and others have their roots in Saudi Arabia and not say, Quatar or Bahrain. Iran is the oddball as they are not Arabs but their own religion and culture was pushed aside by invading Arabs.

As for "excuse", certainly not. There are no excuses for murder. None. I don't care if it's by religious fanatics, pseudo religious dropouts or Governments.

This idea, that terrorism is an intrincic part of Islam itself utterly fails to explain the periods in history when there were no terrorist attacks from Islamists. That is my main beef with that idea. Another thing that has been present each and every time there has been an attack, be it from Islamists, Zionist terror organizations or Buddhists is a social and political environment of oppression and or violence. The political factor has been there every single time things went to hell, these religions have all seen long periods of peace.

EDIT
http://visionofhumanity.org/app/uploads/2017/02/Global-Terrorism-Index-2016.pdf
page 5 section 5

[Nippelspanner]

This idea, that terrorism is an intrincic part of Islam itself utterly fails to explain the periods in history when there were no terrorist attacks from Islamists.
I didn't say it is, did anyone else here?
Terror attacks are a modern tool of warfare to bring this ideology further.
It wasn't needed in the past.

I don't really care why Islam is what it is, what lead to it, or what these freaks think justifies what they do. I don't care. It's not the issue.
The issue is Manchester, Berlin, Nizza, London, Madrid, ... this list is a long one as you know.

I want it to end, instead of becoming worse.
And I see that all these attacks are committed in the name of the same ideology. It's never the Buddhists, the Christians, the Sikh, ...
Instead of finally addressing the core of the problem, the ideology that openly preaches to destroy the west/conquer it etc., we are more afraid of being not politically correct.
What to do? Not sure. We can hardly "ban" Islam, and it would also just lead to the vast majority of Muslims finally showing their real face. I am sure instant civil war would break out all over Europe.
But we can also not continue to act as if "Islam is not the problem!"
True, it isn't - just everything else is. :shifty:
What can we do, do you have an idea?
Do you think there needs something to be done at all?

All the terror aside, the ideology is garbage from A to Z anyways, and it is beyond me that we are able to realize that banning Nazism is a good idea, yet we let other ideologies that aren't any better bloom all over Europe and excuse it with "freedom of religion".
This is ridiculous and will lead to the islamization of Europe, even though leftists love to ridicule this term, despite the demographic facts that strongly support it.
In a few decades, Europe will have changed drastically.
But hey, let's rather worry about being PC and convince us that 'diversity' is for some reason the way to go.
If I want to meet other cultures, I go visit their countries.

[ikalugin]

It was not a nice place at all for women, them having absolutely zero rights
Didn't he marry a rich and active widow?

[Von Due]

Didn't he marry a rich and active widow?

True. Upper class women had more rights than lower class women. Rights would also be a matter of the local society. Hamurabi's Laws do mention that women under certain circumstances were allowed to divorce. Out of Hammurabi's reach, things were different and up to local traditions.

[Von Due]

I didn't say it is, did anyone else here?
Terror attacks are a modern tool of warfare to bring this ideology further.
It wasn't needed in the past.

The Sicarii operated in ancient times and were by all standards a terrorist organization. Terror has a long history. India saw it, Palestine/Israel saw it.


I don't really care why Islam is what it is, what lead to it, or what these freaks think justifies what they do. I don't care. It's not the issue.
The issue is Manchester, Berlin, Nizza, London, Madrid, ... this list is a long one as you know.


It becomes an issue when you want to see it end.


I want it to end, instead of becoming worse.


I'm with you here.


And I see that all these attacks are committed in the name of the same ideology. It's never the Buddhists, the Christians, the Sikh, ...


Oh that is not correct. Buddhist terror has happened in this decade. Christian terror: The Italian mafia's killings of judges, policemen, priests and others, the Mexican drug cartels' grip on the entire Mexican society where femicide now is running rampant, it's terror by definition. For political gains, for power.


Instead of finally addressing the core of the problem, the ideology that openly preaches to destroy the west/conquer it etc., we are more afraid of being not politically correct.


No different from the proposals of literally dropping nukes on the entire Middle East.


What to do? Not sure.


Again I agree. I don't know either. There are points one have to look at though. Western/Russian involvement in these areas, French colonialism today, our domestically tendency of not hiring anyone with "weird" names for jobs other than kebab chefs, acknowledge that resources belonging to another state is not for anyone with a bigger gun to grab, stopping support of oppressive regimes no matter how sweet deals they offer, stopping the divide and conquer mentality found in our own business world, having our politicians and lawmakers acknowledging that human rights are not for a select few, a complete rework on how we "distribute" resources, wealth, medicines, rights... even if we have to pay through our noses financially.

We also are in need of an effective intelligence capable of doing their job. We are our own protection's worst nightmare the way we throw every monkey wrench in their gears in the name of some ideal freedom that doesn't exist in the first place. The agencies on the other hand need to work on their image. Too much funny business have eaten away the public's trust in them.

We also need laws to deal with the shadow figures behind the extremism. I don't cry if a hate preacher gets life in jail with monitored visits. Law enforcement needs the ability to work clandestine to find these figures and that is a problem (see trust issue).


We can hardly "ban" Islam, and it would also just lead to the vast majority of Muslims finally showing their real face. I am sure instant civil war would break out all over Europe.


No civil war but why ban it? For all I care all religion could be banned as a favour to all of us but nah.


Do you think there needs something to be done at all?


Absolutely. See above.


All the terror aside, the ideology is garbage from A to Z anyways, and it is beyond me that we are able to realize that banning Nazism is a good idea, yet we let other ideologies that aren't any better bloom all over Europe and excuse it with "freedom of religion".


The opposite of, or alternative to, freedom of religion is called what? Beside, which religion, if only one, should win? My religion? I have no religion. Your? The Catholics'? Protestants? Or the old religion before it was destroyed by an intruding religion? Which religion, or no religion at all?


This is ridiculous and will lead to the islamization of Europe, even though leftists love to ridicule this term, despite the demographic facts that strongly support it.


Where do you get your facts from?


In a few decades, Europe will have changed drastically.


I'll take that as a prediction. Not a stating of facts as neither you nor I have a working crystal ball. I am not that worried...


But hey, let's rather worry about being PC and convince us that 'diversity' is for some reason the way to go.
If I want to meet other cultures, I go visit their countries.

It's not about being PC. It's about avoiding attrocities that can be avoided if we deal with the real, underlying problems which also include getting those who work in the shadows who are well protected behind laws and apathy.

As for different cultures and all that: Business and politics see it differently and so do consumers when it comes to jobs, money and prices. Then it's ok to go to other countries, not to visit but to demand. This is where finding a solution starts.

Last: How many Islamist attacks from the 4 million muslims in South America? What is South America's involvement in the Middle East? Any correlation?

[ValoWay]

So are people here really believing that Islam as a whole, the entire religion is evil? That honestly sounds extremely narrow-minded to me.. but then again we also allow malicious bollocks like scientology so who really knows what the people in charge in the west were $$$thinking$$$.. I always thought the people who are shaping 'islam' as a tool for terror are to blame? When german soldiers were slaughtering jews in the believe that it was their duty in the name of the 'Vaterland', cause himmler, hitler and the rest of the gang said so (aka Nazism), why's that any different to terrorists which blow themselves up in the name of allah, cause some guy with a long beard kept shouting it for hours on end? We also don't call the german people evil, because of the nazis..

When we believe that the entire religion is evil from the ground up we also have to ask ourselves why our leaders never had any issues allowing them to live with us or to make deals with them.. According to this logic we must have always known that islam was evil, cause their book was always as publicly available to us just as the bible.. Otherwise, they used magic tricks..

[Von Due]

[cont]

Local issues must be solved as well. Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Yemen, Israel/Palestine, the apathy of the Sauds towards religious leaders who are both supporters of the king as well as supporters of terror putting the king in a jam, several African countries torn apart for half a century by civil wars and coups, former Soviet republics and Russian influence there, Chinese domestic policies towards their own, these are way heavier problems than I can even suggest a solution for.

[Nippelspanner]

The Assassins operated in ancient times and were by all standards a terrorist organization. Terror has a long history. India saw it, Palestine/Israel saw it.
Assassins kill selected targets, they do not commit mass-slaughtering of women and children. Or did they?
Whatever may be the case, I rather look at what happens now.
And now, Europe is in peril, with a rather bad prognosis.

It becomes an issue when you want to see it end.I disagree. I see what you're getting it though.


Oh that is not correct. Buddhist terror has happened in this decade. Christian terror: The Italian mafia's killings of judges, policemen, priests and others, the Mexican drug cartels' grip on the entire Mexican society where femicide now is running rampant, it's terror by definition. For political gains, for power.
Yes, the infamous Buddhist terror attacks, don't we all remember the countless attacks, globally, with thousands of victims, over decades.
And the Italian Mafia? Drug Cartels?
These are completely different issues, with incomparable dimensions.


No different from the proposals of literally dropping nukes on the entire Middle East.Yes. Right. Demanding that European politicians start to talk openly about Islam instead of repeating the same PC-nonsense of freedom, diversity and being so strong together - while bombs go off left and right - is the same as to ask for dropping nukes on the middle east...
It's basically synonymous, right?


Again I agree. I don't know either. There are points one have to look at though. Western/Russian involvement in these areas, French colonialism today, our domestically tendency [...]
Nothing of that influenced the content of the Quran. Nothing.


No civil war but why ban it? For all I care all religion could be banned as a favour to all of us but nah.
No civil war?
Considering the amount of Muslims in Europe, a ban of what is most important to them would most likely lead to a civil war. Protests would get insanely violent, because too many Muslims cannot control themselves when it is about their ideology. I experienced this multiple times, in person. As soon as you criticize (and I mean criticize, not insult or slander!) their beliefs, they completely lose it. God help you if you're alone with them if it happens, or worse: If they are in a group, while you're not.
I've been in these situations, and I learned my lesson: Islam means peace.

For all I care, yes, all religion could just disappear. In my opinion mankind should be advanced enough by now to understand how silly it is to believe in fantasy stories that are thousands of years old and unproven, even having these fantasy stories control their lives.
It is beyond stupid in my opinion - but as long as the Religion in question does not cause too many problems, let alone affect me directly, I don't care - to each his own!
If people following this ideology start to commit murder, and I see that ideology spread where I was born and raised up, in peace, I do start to worry.


The opposite of, or alternative to, freedom of religion is called what? Beside, which religion, if only one, should win? My religion? I have no religion. Your? The Catholics'? Protestants? Or the old religion before it was destroyed by an intruding religion? Which religion, or no religion at all?
No religion at all.
However, I am not saying "ban religion", it simply isn't possible, as I stated earlier. It is too inter-woven with our cultures and societies, of course.
And in the end I wouldn't care as long as no one suffers from it.
As I said: We cannot ban it. I made no statement if we should, or not, either.


Where do you get your facts from?
Various sources over the last ten years.
If you google for demographic studies and observations regarding Islam in Europe, you will sure find a lot on it.


I'll take that as a prediction. Not a stating of facts as neither you nor I have a working crystal ball. I am not that worried...
Did I say it is a fact?
It is the future, so yes, it is a prediction - what else?
But these predictions rely on demographics, history and other data.

Also: Not that worried? (https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/opinion-polls.aspx)



It's not about being PC. It's about avoiding attrocities that can be avoided if we deal with the real, underlying problems which also include getting those who work in the shadows who are well protected behind laws and apathy.What are the real problems?
Again, what from today, has influenced the content of the Quran and Sharia? Nothing.
It is what it is. PC people just try to find some magic reasons to shift the blame - for whatever reason.
Why is it not OK to come to the conclusion that the ideology of Islam is dangerous?


Last: How many Islamist attacks from the 4 million muslims in South America? What is South America's involvement in the Middle East? Any correlation?Well, 4 million Muslims all over South America?
No wonder there is not much going on in that regard.
Give it time... let them spread a bit more, you'll see.

Let's look at it globally:

http://i.imgur.com/wf3uswz.png


So let's assume these numbers are way off, even by, let's say, crazy 50%.
Wouldn't that still be enough to finally realize something's a tiddy tad wrong with that ideology, and why having Europe - or whatever place - flooded with it, is a terrible, terrible idea?

If you really think none of this is a problem, or even not true, so be it. I'm not here to convince you. I don't care, and said about Islam what I can say at this point.

[Nippelspanner]

So are people here really believing that Islam as a whole, the entire religion is evil? That honestly sounds extremely narrow-minded to me..
What is more narrow-minded?
To actually read the source-code of said ideology and find a conclusion based upon the content provided, or never even have read it and go claim those who oppose it are the ones being narrow-minded?

Yes, I did just claim you never read the Quran, and I do so with high confidence. Most non-Muslims who read it carefully and have a functioning brain can only come to the conclusion that the ideology itself, is evil. Yes.
The Quran suggests to apply the Sharia, for example.
Do we need to take a closer look at the Sharia, or can we agree right away that it isn't really that cool?

We also don't call the german people evil, because of the nazis..
Uhm, that analogy doesn't work at all.

Not every German was a Nazi, especially among the civilian population.
Every Muslim however is required to follow the book, that is what makes him a Muslim, and there is no room for error here. If he does not - then he is no Mulsim, no matter what he claims. The alcohol drinking, pork eating, not fasting, not praying, "fashion muslims" aren't muslims. Just like a Person is no attack helicopter, just because he wants to be. We are what we do, not what we say we are.
The Quran is considered infallible. It is without error, and the absolute truth. Further, it is demanded that the Prophet is seen as an idol, to be followed (by action!).
Again, at what point is it "evil enough" for PC-people to admit there's something... off?
And why would I not come to the conclusion that, drawing a conclusion, this ideology is not evil/bad/dangerous, considering the facts?
Why is that so atrocious to you?

[Von Due]

One problem there is the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. One makes a claim, another disproves the claim, the first changes the premises. Terror is terror end of that story. Terror is not a competition where 2nd place gets a green card. If you want to understand terror then you can't do what you do there, dismiss anything that hasn't got the "Muslim" tag on it. Terror is not what happens "here" exclusively, by "those" exclusively, hurting "us" exclusively.

You have posted those charts before if I recall correctly and I ask: Of 1600 million worldwide, where do they live, the ones who were asked? In Europe or in Asia? In cities or rural areas? Which countries? Did you spot the decreasing numbers as the opinions got more extreme?

Here's a thought to play with: apparently 500 million of 1600 million do not want Sharia law. Where do they live? Roughly 1000 out of 1600 million do not want death for leaving Islam. Where do they live?

I believe I already said this the first time those charts were posted but yes, there are people who want Sharia, who want to kill infidels and all that. They need to be contained. The point is, I say they do not represent all Muslims as your own charts also show.

[Skybird]

The overwhelming majority of those plotting the terror attacks in Madrid and London after 9/11, were "well-integrated", well-educated Muslims of social middle class, students, with good job perspectives, stable homes, and good income or outlook for good income. The polcie was stunned back then that the usual profiles they had of terrorist personalities, did almost completely fail. It made the news ten years ago, if you remember.

Today we see quite some migrants who get radicalised within just 2-3 months at times. 2-3 months. Obviously they cam into contatc with a toxix, highly potent agent. Not even reeducation camps in the USSR or PRC were that successful.

It is one of the most beloved lies of the Western political left to claim that Muslim terrorism gets bred by social disadvantages. And that they would not form up if only we would love them more, no matter their often unspeakable and unacceptable behavior of spitting on us and our home's culture and values. The left loves this lie because it allows it to propagate once again the class-less society and the redistribution of wealth from the privilegde evil wealthy people to the poor sods serving the cliche'S role of being victims. The political left implies therefore that Muslim terrorism and mass murder is a freedom fight and a fight for justice and recognition.

It. Is. Nothing of that.

It just is coldblooded, mean, underhanded murder, this time targetting children and young teens in scores. -There is nothing to be understood. Nothing to be explained. There is nothing to be forgiven. And no foul "compromise" and none of these endlessly talked about "reasonable solutions" to be accepted.

[Von Due]

It just is coldblooded, mean, underhanded murder, this time targetting children and young teens in scores. -There is nothing to be understood. Nothing to be explained. There is nothing to be forgiven. And no foul "compromise" and none of these endlessly talked about "reasonable solutions" to be accepted.

So.... what would your solution be?

[Skybird]

Hurt feelings deemed to be of more concern than mangled dead children.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4vWR5BpDdQ

People see something horrible happen in the world, and they run to the internet, and they render their social media, Facebook or Twitter or whatever they got, and they all write down the exact same thing:
"My thoughts and prayers!" :cry: "My thoughts and prayers with the people in Aurora!" :cry::cry: "My thoughts and prayers with the families in Boston!" :cry::cry::cry: Do you know what's that worth? ######## nothing! ######## lot less than nothing. Less than nothing. You are not giving any of your time or money or even your compassion, all you were doing, all you were doing is saying: "Don't forget about ME today."
(...)
Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage. Anger at the way things are; and courage to see that they do not remain as they are. - Saint Augustine.

[Skybird]

So.... what would your solution be? Lead, force Muslims in the West to unconditionally follow - or kick them out of the way. I don't care for their precious sentiments. I just don't care. They still defend islam and claim it is peace? So let them pay the blood tax all alone. I refuse to be interested any longer.

[Nippelspanner]

The thoughts and prayers part is from Anthony Jeselnik:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htiqMtAvSNE

[Nippelspanner]

Regarding P.J. Watson, he should be taken with a grain of salt, in my opinion, as he is sometimes near to the edge of absurd conspiracy theories - but that video was definitely a good one.

PS: I've just seen now that Jeselnik's clip was embedded in Watson's video. Duh.

[Skybird]

Regarding P.J. Watson, he should be taken with a grain of salt, in my opinion, as he is sometimes near to the edge of absurd conspiracy theories - but that video was definitely a good one.


Yes to both. Other stuff by him has to be taken with caution. But this one is a direct hit, and its valid. 100 / 100 on the score card.

[Nippelspanner]

One youtuber also hit the nails head in the comments, and reminds me of my earlier post:
http://i.imgur.com/clFMYoy.png

As I said, rinse and repeat.

[Dowly]

Regarding P.J. Watson, he should be taken with a grain of salt, in my opinion, as he is sometimes near to the edge of absurd conspiracy theories[..]Well, he is good pals with Alex Jones and does work for infowars.

[Jimbuna]

Okay folks, back to the actual root topic, namely the terrorist attack at Manchester.......

Police investigating the Manchester Arena bomb attack have stopped sharing information with the US after leaks to the media, the BBC understands.
UK officials were outraged when photos appearing to show debris from the attack appeared in the New York Times.
It came after the name of bomber Salman Abedi was leaked to US media just hours after the attack, which killed 22 - including children - and injured 64.
Theresa May is to raise concerns with Donald Trump at a Nato meeting later.
Greater Manchester Police hopes to resume normal intelligence relationships - a two-way flow of information - soon but is currently "furious", the BBC understands.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40040210

I wonder if it could be said that the above is symptomatic of the current administration who govern the US?

[ikalugin]

Lead, force Muslims in the West to unconditionally follow - or kick them out of the way. I don't care for their precious sentiments. I just don't care. They still defend islam and claim it is peace? So let them pay the blood tax all alone. I refuse to be interested any longer.
Sounds authoritatian.

[Skybird]

Sounds authoritatian.
Sounds determined, and anti-indifferent.

Sounds not like the Trallalla that we have had en masses and masses in the past 16 - SIXTEEN - years.

BTW, the act by the police to arrest a criminal, is authoritarian. Else it would be useless.

And ever more camera surveillance, automatic face recogntion, biometric datapools - what is that? What - no complaints?

[ikalugin]

Sounds determined, and anti-indifferent.

Sounds not like the Trallalla that we have had en masses and masses in the past 16 - SIXTEEN - years.

BTW, the act by the police to arrest a criminal, is authoritarian. Else it would be useless.

And ever more camera surveillance, automatic face recogntion, biometric datapools - what is that? What - no complaints?
The difference between my view and my perception of yours is small, ideological, yet important.

And it is - the state should enforce the legtimately set laws of the land (and as such punish any violators according to said laws).

What the state should not do is to prosecute individuals (or the sets of said individuals - comunities) on the basis of religion or ideological views, however horrible those may be, provided that the individual in question did not break the law. Morever while the state can (and should) discriminate between the groups and conduct it's preventative and investigatory activites accordingly, the state should not and should not be able to prosecute an individual on the bases of his affiliation with any group (provided said affiliation is not illegal) but only on the bases of court's decision regarding a crime said individual did commit.

[Jimbuna]

Shan't be wasting my time anymore by simply asking.

[Nippelspanner]

I don't see the problem. The topic is about the attack by a Muslim extremist. Naturally people will talk about Islam and related things. You can't draw a magic line when it's all connected.

[Onkel Neal]

Let's post the greater level muslim discussion in the "all purpose" terrorism thread as Jim is asking.

[STEED]

One thing that has got me angry is the News in this country giving this murderer far more air time than the victims. This is disgraceful reporting pandering to this.....

I better stop there before I break forum rules.

Jim feel free to merge this thread.

[eddie]

Yeah Steed, he is getting plenty of play time over here too. I could care less about him and his brother. He's dead, his brother has been arrested. Good enough!

[Nippelspanner]

Yeah Steed, he is getting plenty of play time over here too. I could care less about him and his brother. He's dead, his brother has been arrested. Good enough!
I agree. This is a bad move for all these freaks, no matter what motivated them.
Anders Breivik is another good example.
He wanted the big stage to spread his ridiculous ideas - and he got it.
I understand the curiosity of people, but the media is playing after the rules of the perpetrators, that is just...so wrong.