The Japanese Win Again

[CptGlub]

Some pointless grousing. I know the game is years past being maintained and that complaining serves no purprose. But here it is anyway:

I've been depth charged a number of times. I'm finding it incredibly hard to believe that on a pitch black night a pair of destroyers can peel off a daisy chain that was roaring along at 34kts and somehow come and plop their butts down almost directly on top of me. I understand that there is a trail for them to follow to get started on my location but that only gives them the direction not the distance. For them to charge over and consistently stop and fish around within 700 yds of my position is unrealistic. Especially since my distance from impact could be anything from 500 to 8200 yards away. Thats 5 football fields or FOUR NAUTICAL MILES they have to choose from. Yet, somehow they consistently start their search just a stone's throw away every time.

Doesn't matter if I give them my short profile. Doesn't matter if I don't turn a screw after firing. They magically converge directly overhead and commence their unending loops until they sniff me out. Once they've painted me, it's all over. I can dance around down there for hours but they aren't going to give up with their never ending supply of depth charges until they've come up with a lucky shot.

Here's the clincher. The other day, all but one escort gave up. When the remaining escort was turned away from me, I hit the gas and kept trying to creep away from him. I was ultra conservative with short bursts and made sure to shut down engines way before i exited his blind spot. As I slowly started trying to vacate the area, I simply dragged him with me as his searching patterns were consistently drawn to me like a magnet.

Out in the open sea with nothing, absolutely nothing as reference points, and literally 360 degrees to choose from, the fact that they zero in on me without a sonar lock is ridiculous and quite honestly ruins the sim.

In clear the bridge, o'kane described being ON THE SURFACE in the middle of a japanese convoy. Now I'm not asking for that kind of playablility but it sure points out the difference between what was possible in RL and what is plainly impossible in the sim. Christ, my SCOPE gets spotted from a couple miles away. How am I supposed to make a surface run?

It's just incredibly frustrating. The sim has such potential and such fantastic moments and features that I keep coming back but every time the bugs and the inevitable death by depthcharge send me away crying in my beer again.

I'm not really looking for advice. I've read it all and tried it all. Just howling at the moon which is my nature.

Here endeth the rant.

I'll set it aside again and wait for the next obsessive surge that pulls me back in.

[propbeanie]

What mod, if any, are you using? Those make a ~huge~ difference in the "intelligence" of the "Artificial"...

[CptGlub]

TMO 2.5 (or whatever the last TMO is)

It can't be helped. When faced with the problem of convoy defense, the programmers had a choice of simulating an actual search (time consuming) or simply have the escorts advance to a random location very near the only coordinate position that is KNOWN by the program--the sub's location. They took the easy way out.

When I use my sub sonar, if I'm off by even a couple degrees, my ping goes unreflected even on very close targets. That's a pretty narrow beam of precision. Now imagine an escort comes from hundreds or thousands of yards away after the chaos of a torpedo impact. He's got to find the fading torp trail, follow it out to their best guess on distance and then they've got to solve the problem of which of 360 degrees to point their sonar in AND they have to be right within two degrees or they get nothing. Add to that, that there is also 60-80 degrees of DOWN angle degrees to cope with.

Assuming 60 degrees of down angle means there are 21600 possibilities for the escort to choose (less actually because they have a blind spot). With a 2 degree precision required for echo, the probability now becomes 1 in roughly 10800 possibilities for a good ping. On an open ocean with no permanent landmarks to guide them and a vapor trail that is fading by the second, you wonder why they even try. And yet...it usally takes them only 10-12 pings to paint the exact location of a sub that never surfaced, showed its scope BEFORE the attack for maybe a total of 20 seconds, is below a thermal, not turning a screw, is engaged in running silently and exceeding test depth.

I am assuming full degrees for echo location. Maybe they get half degrees, maybe more. This would make the probabilities astronomical.

Yes, they will make many and sweeping searches but 1 divided by 10800 is .0000925, how many random pings must go out to turn that number into the discovery of a completely silent, non-moving sub that is giving you their narrowest, head-on silhouette?

Once painted, you're in trouble and that is as it should be. I don't complain that when discovered, I'm usually sunk. I complain that finding me in the first place should be way more difficult for them than it is.

[CptGlub]

Sorry to beat the dead horse but in Clear The Bridge, O'Kane makes surface runs in the presence of escorts, picks his egress, then tosses off a brief sentence about how the escort never even saw him or dropped a couple charges way over "there" to make it look like they were searching. He's in the galley sipping a cup of coffee shortly after the engagement, thumbing through the ID manual.

In the SH4 world, daring to expose your scope invites a two-hour teeth-rattling depth-charge sabre-dance.

Something between those two extremes is called for.

My apologies for the rants. There should be no crying in sub sim.

[Hardigen]

I agree entirely ,CptGlub, I,m also using TMO 2.5 and I,ve gone through exactly what ,s happened t you . I used to play it with 100% realism but it,s SO hard to get near a convoy, and the escorts just seem to zero in on you . Also the the search patterns follow you even when you,re running silent and under the thermal layer . BUT the TMO manual does warn you it,s not as easy as the stock game ,its just so bloody frustrating when you,ve got in a good position only t go deep . I,ve one consolation though ! I was forced to the surface on one op and managed to sink the b......d with the deck gun before he sunk me . Keep at it and have another beer , I think I,ll have one too ! we,re all in the same boat , Cheers H

[CaptBones]

IIRC, there is a "mini-Mod" included in TMO 2.5 that dumbs-down the AI Escorts.

You can also tweak the Data/CFG/Sim.cfg file to put limitations, "mild" to "severe", on the AI escorts' Visual, Hydrophone, Radar, and Sonar capabilities. Pay particular attention to thermal layer attenuation. I experimented with various settings until it seemed to result in a more "fair" exchange between my tactics and their capabilities.

One thing that gets my attention every time...is time. It seems that if you use any TC while being hunted by escorts, they will unerringly find you and kill you. I suspect that you simply can't effectively/timely react to their tactics and sensors while in TC, but their skills are perfectly functional at the same time...time and time again.

So, I never use TC after attacking a convoy or any formation with escorts; makes for a long drawn-out afternoon/evening of Subsimming, but I general live to fight again another day. Yes, I've been depth charged to exhaustion or fatally damaged a couple of times. I've also spent an hour or two, sometimes three, being depth charged; but have managed to finally, successfully, creep away and leave a group of as many as 4 or more escorts behind, relentlessly depth-charging a circle of empty ocean behind me. Go deep and leave 'em astern.

[BigWalleye]

You might try RFB. AFAIK, TMO was not intended to accurately represent the historical capabiliy of the IJN. Pre-war, the USN expected a formidable ASW force and believed that their boats would be highly vulnerable. In the event, the IJN turned out to be much less efficient. I believe that the intent of TMO was to create an opponent force that was as capable as the USN imagined it. So you couldn't go dancing into the midst of a convoy KNOWING that you had a good chance of getting through untouched. Knowing in advance that the enemy is weak was anhistorical. Historically, only the skippers with the great big leather ones even tried the really bold moves, although, when they did, they often got away with them. TMO does not portray the submarine war as it was, but as the USN expected it to be. That's why TMO does not let you duplicate the heroic feats of the great skippers. You already know it can be done.

Now, I also have to say that I was not playing SH4 when Ducimus released TMO. So I am speaking from hearsay about his intentions, and just repeating stories I've read. If I am misrepresenting anything, I hope that someone who knows better will please correct me.

Aside: I personally do not enjoy the approach of TMO. I like to be able to duplicate the tactics I can read in first-person accounts. That's why I play RFB. But a lot of SH4 players, possibly a majority, seem to prefer TMO. YMMV.

[Sniper297]

No offense, but the first thing that occurs to me is it's kind of silly to complain about the difficulty of the game itself when you're using a mod that increases the difficulty. :doh:

Modifications are a matter of individual taste, I make my own mods to get something that feels realistic to me, but since;

I AM NOT EVERYONE, EVERYONE IS NOT ME

what feels realistic to me might or might not feel realistic to others.

Best advice from CaptBones, since the sim.cfg file is easily edited with notepad, increase the detection time and reduce the lost contact time until they're less pesky.

I just uploaded a small mod;

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//downloads.php?do=file&id=5186

that increases the duration of the decoys. Biggest problem I found with the standard bubble generator is that 10 minutes is just enough time for an escort to react and head down the torpedo tracks, by the time he gets there the decoy has timed out and sunk. 20 minutes gives enough time to go deep and creep away, 30 minutes is even better and makes it too easy - for me, again what feels hard or easy to me will not be universal since everyone in the universe is not like me.

Try the DecoyX3 mod, fire torpedoes, hit the J key to kick out a decoy, increase speed while heading deeper and cross under the convoy to the other side. When you're below the layer go to ahead slow and silent running, turn to the opposite of the original convoy course to break contact faster. Destroyers keep cheating by calling the Psychic Friends Hotline, come up above the layer, kick out another decoy above the layer, then duck back below the layer and change course 45-90 degrees. If you use the compass tool to draw a 5 mile circle around the original attack point you'll have a better picture of how far away you need to be before coming back up to periscope depth for a look around.

[BigWalleye]

No offense, but the first thing that occurs to me is it's kind of silly to complain about the difficulty of the game itself when you're using a mod that increases the difficulty. :doh:

It's not clear from his posts that CptGlub understands that the INTENT of TMO was to increase the difficulty. He certainly does ask why historically documented tactics don't work in TMO. That may not be silly, just naive.

[Bubblehead1980]

It's not really the escort's abilities that is the problem in TMO, they are great and keep things interesting, itt's the inherently unrealistic way depth charges damage and destroy your sub, it's leftover from stock.Because TMO escorts can actually lay a decent pattern, they tend to get way too many "golden BB's" that makes players think it's the escort.

I play RSRD for the more historical traffic etc but have them tuned up to TMO levels. The change I made is my "new depth charge" mod(look in the downloads section)

Charges are still effective, will kill you BUT they are toned down to be more realistic. Instead of the "instant death" killing blows, unless they get lucky most of time which was sheer luck if an escort scored in that manner, they cause damage to accumulate to key systems, cause flooding etc.

Great example is recently(story in its entirety is in patrol logs thread) some really close charges with my mod(had the external cam on for once) wrecked my pumps, caused heavy flooding etc. Could not control depth, even with high speed, so blew ballast, surfaced and made a run for it, barely escaped. Now with charges before, would've been "death blows" and the unrealistic fade to black.

I'd say given my charges mod a try and see how it works.Should work with TMO alone.


A tactic to try is one I learned to use to survive TMO way back when first used it and is a tactic used by some skippers from first hand accounts I had read.

Say I am in a Gato class. I just torpedoed a ship, her comes he escort(s). I order a dive for 300 feet(test depth) , silent running slow speed, keep RPM's on gauge near the steersman at 100 RPM or less, usually amounts to 2 knots.

Level off at 300, let them ping, they have their fix on you most likely, as they roar overhead(I play with cam off usually, so have to listen and use sonar) when they stop pinging as they roar overhead, order flank speed and and start stop watch. Let your boat get to full speed and after 3-45 seconds, order all stop, order 20 degrees port rudder, and order depth to 350 feet. Once speed drops down to 3 knots or so, set speed for two knots.Momentum has now carried you on a new heading. Repeat this process on next run, except next time go to starboard(opposite direction of last run) or if situation suits it better, just keep turning in same direction for a few runs. Eventually youre on a new heading.If needed, drop to 375 feet.If in a deep diving boat like a Balao, go to 500 feet, or 600 even.

Eventually they will lose you.This tactic has long worked for me with TMO.

Another great mod to look into is the depth charge disturbance mod. It mimics the chaos underwater explosions has on sonar gear.I believe for each charge it lasts 20 secs or so. Can aid you at times.

[LCQ_SH]

It's really interesting how different people thinks about AI skills in TMO

Yesterday I was starting a new career and I intercepted the task force inbound to Java. It was midnight, no wind, no moon so it was pitch black so no periscope data collection was possible. It had to be a radar hunt and sunk a heavy and a light cruiser with a zero gyro angle shot. The first thing I thought was "holly damn, I'm too close to destroyers, max depth is only 130 meters, I will die."

Big surprise, escorst looked after me, I did not even get pinged, and I have the Tokko's revenge mod as well with the Ducimus "harder escorts" mode on. :arrgh!:

In my experience, escorts can be soft sometimes and some others very rough. It depends on the escort skippper I guess.

On a different matter, I enjoy TMOs escort "unrealistic skills" to track you down as it makes sinking ships more fun. I am also playing SH5 occasionally where I can torp convoys one after another and you can get away from it by just dive pass 150m, ajust RPM to 50 and that's it. I've been told that escorts get better as years go by. I really hope so because so far, shooting ships every 4 days, I mean is a good aiming practice but that's is. No thrill or fear of getting sunk.

So I would say, what would you prefer? Either struggling with the escorts or playing an arcade game where you can sink ships one after the other every couple of hours? If you prefer the last one, just unmod your game and give it a try. You will see like 50 convoys spawning every 10 minutes all around the world.

Endure and fight the escorts :arrgh!: :salute:

[Sniper297]

Well, that's the "different strokes for different folks" factor, I personally was irritated by the constant sudden death, so I changed the US sub's hit points from 475 to 950, then edited the DepthCharges.zon file to reduce max damage and the radius. The stock game had 230 hit points inside 15 feet, even one close depth charge would wreck you beyond any hope of repair.

Some people LIKE that sort of thing, my youngest son is autistic and he LOVES those frustrating console games where you get killed, start over, get killed again, start over from the beginning again, repeat repeat repeat. If you can stand that sort of thing eventually you get good enough to beat the game, but to me that's not entertainment.

To the OP, my suggestion is try the game without any mega mods, use the fixes like GFO and acceleration physics, maybe with some of the more powerful deck gun and torpedo mods, see how you like that. When that gets boring and you're looking for more challenge, THEN try different mega mods and/or other gameplay mods designed to make the game harder than stock.

[Bubblehead1980]

Well, that's the "different strokes for different folks" factor, I personally was irritated by the constant sudden death, so I changed the US sub's hit points from 475 to 950, then edited the DepthCharges.zon file to reduce max damage and the radius. The stock game had 230 hit points inside 15 feet, even one close depth charge would wreck you beyond any hope of repair.

Some people LIKE that sort of thing, my youngest son is autistic and he LOVES those frustrating console games where you get killed, start over, get killed again, start over from the beginning again, repeat repeat repeat. If you can stand that sort of thing eventually you get good enough to beat the game, but to me that's not entertainment.

To the OP, my suggestion is try the game without any mega mods, use the fixes like GFO and acceleration physics, maybe with some of the more powerful deck gun and torpedo mods, see how you like that. When that gets boring and you're looking for more challenge, THEN try different mega mods and/or other gameplay mods designed to make the game harder than stock.


Which file controls hit points for the sub? I forget

[Sniper297]

\Data\Submarine\NSS_(SubType)\NSS_(SubType).zon
All the way at the bottom, "CollisionableObject".

The \Data\zones.cfg contains hit points and armor ratings for subsystems like engine and rudder, "XXI" is for all fleet boats, not sure about the S class since I haven't played S boats very often. For example;

[RudderXXI]
Multiplier=1.000000
Flotability=0.000000
HitPoints=1500
Destructible=No
Armor Level=250
Critic Flotation=0.300000
Critical=Yes
Father=30
FloodingTime=59.999996
CargoType=None

I jacked some of those WAY up because I got tired of having the rudder destroyed, even if the rest of the sub is in 4.0 condition you can't do anything without a rudder, rudder gone = game over.

Speaking of actual bugs, I've had the 1.5 patch for a while now, and I see they still haven't fixed the random CTD bug. :down:

[Jonesy]

I´m also playing TMO, but for me it is basically only a problem is shallow water areas.

In my latest play session I ran across a convoy in the china sea, there was only 150 feet of water and without a layer to hide under it seems to be suicide to try an attack in those conditions.

[LCQ_SH]

I play RSRD for the more historical traffic etc but have them tuned up to TMO levels. The change I made is my "new depth charge" mod(look in the downloads section)



Couldn't find it, would you have the link?? :D

ED: NVM, looked in the wrong place

[CptGlub]

Wow! So I must first off thank everyone for their help and inspiration.

Seems I must eat some crow. When I chose TMO it was based on the general idea that it tended to be the preferred mod with some caveats. It answered my issues with SH4 out of the box with fewer air attacks and less convoys crawling the globe. I was unaware of its amping up of escorts.

Complaining about things without knowing too much about them, I'm afraid. Lots of new info for me to digest and look into. I'll have to start diving in to that mod forum a bit and poking around.

Thanks again all.

[Sniper297]

Assuming you're using JGSME;
1. Deactivate TMO.
2. Find your my documents\games\SH4 folder, delete all the save games since you'll need to start a new career.

Downloads to install;

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1196

Game fixes only, also known as GFO, among other things it reduces the constant air attacks to something more accurately reflects the number and range of actual WWII aircraft.

Also fixes a number of physics to more accurately simulate WWII ships and planes. This should have been an official patch.

Some options;

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=517

Increases rate of fire and lethality of deck guns for subs.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=4380

Several options to increase US sub torpedo damage.

And of course my latest;

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=5186

Increases duration of decoys. When the destroyers get really irritating install the triple time mod, hit the J key to launch a decoy that lasts 30 minutes to give the destroyers a more attractive target than you so you have more time to sneak away at low speed.

[Rockin Robbins]

GFO is the ugly sister of Subsim supermods. Gets very little attention, but it's a pure blast to play!

TMO is a difficulty mod. It does unrealistic things to make you play honestly, as a real sub skipper would. And it gives more challenge to players advanced enough that the challenge is gone from SH4.

Just for fun, I went into an airplane infested hell hole and let myself be seen. In spite of that, and in spite of the air filled with hornets, I didn't have to look at a single plane, ever. I could just go by a simple set of rules and be perfectly safe. Oh, and the "too many airplanes" complaint is just a product of time compression. In real time the frequency is not unrealistic. Many a sub had to leave an area, including Dick O'Kane, because of swarms of Japanese planes. They sure wished they could mod their game and I'm sure they were irritated too.

https://youtu.be/Hidf8p64_CE

[Rockin Robbins]

And if you just want to make the game into an arcade game, don't do all that sissy stuff. Get some real cajones and load up my Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun and Slightly Subnuclear Torpedoes! Warning: giving YOU subnuclear shells for your guns gives the bad guys subnuclear shells too. No worries, mate!

https://youtu.be/o3upMQBo1m4

Ramp up the challenge AND your destructive capabilities! Nuke 'em! Hope your life insurance is paid up.....:D:D:D

[CptGlub]

Have been playing nearly every day since my initial post and want to add a couple issues for posterity.

My basic egress plan was flawed. My idea was that I was going to make the escorts find me first before I did anything. I thought maybe they wouldn't even be able to locate me and have to give up without my doing anything. While this may or may not have worked in reality, in SH4 it ensures detection. Have read a couple posts on the subject that claim, correctly, that an escort in proximity to my broadside WILL ping me. This runs more than a little contrary to reality but that is an argument for another time. Because the escorts will loop around continuously in the area the torps came from, they will eventually run onto your broadside, ping you and commence the depth charging.

It is imperative that the sub move out of the firing area asap. Don't wait around to see the boom. Get down and get going. While in egress, do your best to keep your bow or stern pointed at the closest destroyer(s). Run silently at the best speed that is safe for the listening conditions. Once clear of their search patterns, drop it to just under 50rpms and creep out the side door.

Have been having excellent success with this basic egress plan.

Thanks again to everyone for your expertise. I think I'm on track.:ping: