Justified Sinking?

[Kaptlt.Endrass]

So, hello fellow captains! Long time since I've posted here, but it's kind of nice to be back.

Down to business, however...

It's June 1941, and I'm out patrolling the mid-Atlantic, around Grid BE46. It's been a fairly unsuccessful patrol, with only a single large freighter to our name. There's been several ships that we've seen, mostly neutral, others not worth catching up to to engage.

Finally, the 23rd of the month, one of the men spots a merchant ship headed towards us. Closer inspection reveals it to be an American tanker, and I almost give up on it.

However, continued observation makes me suspicious, and I run some measurements to see that the tanker is moving at a speedy 17 knots; much more than any other neutral ship we've encountered so far. Believing the ship to be making an attempt to run the blockade around England, we set up to engage with the deck gun, sinking her with somewhere in the range of 25 shots.

Now, I know that the Americans were still neutral at the time, and typically try to avoid hitting their ships until they enter the war (which makes convoy attacks a pain). But would you say that there was enough justification to sink the tanker, given the circumstances?

[CaptBones]

Legally, not justifiable. Even though sailing at an unusually high speed, she was not in the declared blockade zone, she wasn't zig-zagging (was she?), wasn't armed and didn't resist, wasn't travelling in convoy or under escort and wasn't darkened at night. Still very much a "neutral" merchant vessel, despite Lend-Lease, the US "security zone" extended out to 22 deg W and USN escorting convoys as far east as Iceland.

At that time, the U-Boats were forbidden to attack American vessels and they were instructed to avoid any incidents with the United States. Your success was 3 days after the U-203 unsuccessfully attacked the USS TEXAS (BB-35), mistaken for a RN dreadnaught, which resulted in a further order to the U-Boat force to "positively identify" any vessel as hostile before making an attack...practically impossible to do without being detected.

But then, it's a game and when boredom sets in, just "sink 'em all!":arrgh!:

[Aktungbby]

Kindly remove the pertinent log page from your logbook for the time being" (to B restored after hostilities begin in formal earnest) Fear Nothing Kaleun: the tonnage will B put toward your coveted 'itchy neck syndrôme' RitterKreuz. I have interceded on your aß's overeager behalf with the Führer; and he admits he was an eager young corporal once himself...and expects more but in a 'timely' fashion.' - Döenitz :Kaleun_Wink:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Ribbon_of_Knight%27s_Cross_of_the_Iron_Cross.png/120px-Ribbon_of_Knight%27s_Cross_of_the_Iron_Cross.png

[Sailor Steve]

One of the problems is that the game doesn't work the same way as real life. In the actual war the appropriate move would be to stop the suspected ship and check her papers. Being a tanker it's impossible to judge whether the oil on board is "war material", and if it proved to indeed be American and not cheating with a false flag then it would likely be allowed to proceed.

The game, on the other hand, only distinguishes between Enemy, Friendly and Neutral. Sinking a neutral ship will result in a loss of renown equal to what the ship is worth if it were an enemy, and there is nothing that can change that. We can justify our actions to ourselves all we want, but the game will still add or remove renown depending on that criterion alone.

It's something we're stuck with.

[fumo30]

^Luckily we can also easily tweak the basic cfg. file when needed.:03:

[Kaptlt.Endrass]

she was not in the declared blockade zone, she wasn't zig-zagging (was she?),

I believe she may have been at the time, which may have been what aroused my further suspicions.

Going off of what Steve said, it would be nice if there weren't any limitations in the game, but...well, there's only so much a developer can do.

Thank you for your opinions, mates! I'll try to apply this information in later patrols! :salute:

[Sailor Steve]

One fact from the war is that at least one kaleun was court-martialed for sinking a friendly ship. At the trial it was shown that the freighter was deep in Allied waters and was flying the flag of an Allied nation. The kaleun in question was completely exonerated.

What fumo30 said was completely true. If you go to your SH3/Data/Cfg folder and open 'Basic' with notepad, you can change the parameters.

Right near the top is the Renown controller. It looks like this:

[RENOWN]
RenownReachGridObjCompleted=500
RenownPatrolGridObjCompleted=200
CompletedPatrol=100
NEUTRAL=-1
ALLIED=1
AXIS=-10
WrongShipSunk=-5000
FirstRankRenown=1000
SecondRankRenown=3500
EndCampaign=-5000

I've changed the three 'Side' parameters to read

NEUTRAL=0
ALLIED=1
AXIS=-1

This way I don't lose anything for sinking a neutral ship, but I don't gain anything either, which discourages just hunting neutrals. I still get in a little trouble for accidentally sinking a friendly ship, but only a little. I still do my best to only attack enemy shipping.

[GoldenRivet]

strictly coming from it from the standpoint of the prize regulations, i would say - it depends


ARTICLE VIII
BANNED GOODS

The following items and substances are considered banned goods; merchant vessels engaged in the carriage of these materials or with such materials visible on their decks, may be attacked without warning.

1. Weapons of any kind
2. Weapon parts or components
3. Weapon accessories
4. Ammunition
5. Ammunition components
6. Bombs or their components or accessories
7. Torpedoes or their components or accessories
8. Mines or their components or accessories
9. Projectiles intended for shooting or throwing by hand or by a mechanized source
10. Explosives in any form
11. Explosive detonators or any device manufactured as a component or accessory of detonators
12. Warships of any kind regardless of size or tonnage
13. Components meant for use in construction of war machines of any kind
14. Aircraft, aircraft components, accessories, parts or engines
15. Tanks, armored cars, militarized vehicles of any kind including their parts or accessories
16. Armor plating
17. Chemical weapons or components meant for the dispersal of such
18. Military clothing, uniforms, shoes, boots, hats etc
19. Military news manuscripts; or any signaling equipment used for military purposes
20. Chemicals or ingredients meant for use in the printing of military publications
21. Pack animals or riding animals, their equipment and appurtenances if for military purposes
22. Fuel oil, crude oil, lubricating oil, aviation gasoline
23. Gold, silver, cash and coins or any instrument used for settling debt of or to an enemy
24. Food, medicines or rations intended for use by the enemy
25. Any equipment, tools, or materials used to manufacture or otherwise produce or reproduce any the above articles

did you see drums of fuel or oil on the deck? and are you beyond any doubt reasonably certain the ship would be bound for an enemy held port?

historically, such neutral ships would have kept such banned goods under decks, or in disguised containers somehow, it would then be up to the commander to determine if the vessel was worth stopping, boarding and investigating as to the nature of their cargo, interrogate the crew as to their destination, compare their verbal statements to their navigational plot and manifests etc

another prize regulation amendment to consider:

Amendment – 02 OCT 1939 – By order of Der Führer darkened ships regardless of nationality can be attacked within the British and French territorial waters (See Article II, Article XI)

so, at least in real life, if you reached a period of time after sunset and the vessel failed to activate its running / navigation lights - technically by order of high command it can be attacked.

unfortunately, Silent Hunter III will not allow ships to turn on and off their lights at will when appropriate, so, according to the prize regulations you could technically follow any neutral ship until dark in french or british waters, note that they didnt turn on their lights, and then sink them at will