NSM 4.0 incompatible with newest version of RSRD?

[yyzBegonia]

I've installed NSM 4.0 by following orders:
TMO
RSRD v502
RSRD patch
NSM 4.0

When I test it in submarine school's torpedo attack tutorial I found that those torpedoes penetrated the Mogami's hull straightly like ghosts(not in the case of over-depth). I suspect that it may be caused by the alternative Mogami class of RSRD(5 main turrets)which may be incompatible with NSM 4.0 so I deactivated RSRD and took a test one more time then I found that it's no problem with stock's Mogami.:o

[Rockin Robbins]

Interesting. The only bad effects I'm aware from because of incompatibility is that ships not in the NSM mod (like any of Lurker's additions to RSRDC) will just sink like the stock ships used to.

[yyzBegonia]

Interesting. The only bad effects I'm aware from because of incompatibility is that ships not in the NSM mod (like any of Lurker's additions to RSRDC) will just sink like the stock ships used to.

Yup. At first I was wondering if the same problem like what u thought would occur, however something even worse happened.......

[propbeanie]

Are you sure though they went through, and not under? Enable your exterior camera, and watch them again, or better still, use the event camera as they get close. I'll bet they're running way deep and under the Mogami, since RSRDC modded the US torpedo problem rather strongly. The Torpedo Attack in Submarine School happens on January 1, 1943, so the torpedo problem is in full swing.

[yyzBegonia]

Are you sure though they went through, and not under? Enable your exterior camera, and watch them again, or better still, use the event camera as they get close. I'll bet they're running way deep and under the Mogami, since RSRDC modded the US torpedo problem rather strongly. The Torpedo Attack in Submarine School happens on January 1, 1943, so the torpedo problem is in full swing.

well...... I'm sure that they do passed through the cruiser's hull, not ran through under its keel because I've checked it by external camera closely for at least 3 times.

[Rockin Robbins]

That's interesting. NSM doesn't modify torpedoes even a little bit--doesn't touch any torpedo files. It only changes the .zon files for each stock ship. That's it! It can't change torpedoes if I remember right.

It has been awhile since I looked at the NSM mod.

[yyzBegonia]

That's interesting. NSM doesn't modify torpedoes even a little bit--doesn't touch any torpedo files. It only changes the .zon files for each stock ship. That's it! It can't change torpedoes if I remember right.

It has been awhile since I looked at the NSM mod.

I think torpedoes is not to blame because they works well with stock ships.

[propbeanie]

Doesn't TMO change the torps to "more accurately model" the US torpedo fiasco, where there were a lot of duds, and they ran deep?... Even stock does it some. Check your game play settings, and see if Duds aren't set.

[yyzBegonia]

Doesn't TMO change the torps to "more accurately model" the US torpedo fiasco, where there were a lot of duds, and they ran deep?... Even stock does it some. Check your game play settings, and see if Duds aren't set.

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/g1e088nu3bngm6y,7l66qp1ojr8ut5e,a15keezksxk9spc,ft 84ibbb38ptk2h,uszzo48gtvydnq2/shared

Here're the screenshots. As u can see those torpedoes are truly fired with magic.

[propbeanie]

The _500 shot (3rd in the list) is irrefutable... Good capture, btw. I've seen issues with the Furutaka running shallow, and at times, have like the 2nd image down where it looks like they're passing through the keel of a ship, but aren't really because of collision detection... but right through the middle, and with just that one mod? The zon file must accidentally make the Mogami with paper sides or something...

When I tried the MediaFire viewer just now, it isn't working, so a person has to download the images in order to see them.

[yyzBegonia]

The _500 shot (3rd in the list) is irrefutable... Good capture, btw. I've seen issues with the Furutaka running shallow, and at times, have like the 2nd image down where it looks like they're passing through the keel of a ship, but aren't really because of collision detection... but right through the middle, and with just that one mod? The zon file must accidentally make the Mogami with paper sides or something...

When I tried the MediaFire viewer just now, it isn't working, so a person has to download the images in order to see them.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/8c8fejuh5vv4s7f/SH4Img%402016-12-31_13.05.33_500.bmp

Here's the _500, which is the strangest and most ridiculous one.

It seems work well with stock ships, whom .sim and .zon files had been modified in NSM, so I think RSRD's new units should be the bug reasons.

[Rockin Robbins]

It seems work well with stock ships, whom .sim and .zon files had been modified in NSM, so I think RSRD's new units should be the bug reasons.

Comments like that are why all the classic great modders left the game. Players claiming their mods were bugged when they were nothing of the kind just drove them.........buggy!:D:D:D

If Lurker were lurking his reply wouldn't be nice. And maybe it shouldn't be. Let's look at it from his side. When RSRDC was made, NSM was an old mod, not used any more because it was a mod for v1.4, not U-boat Missions. WernerSobe had already declared NSM obsolete, not working properly with v1.5.

Therefore, RSRDC was never intended to be run with NSM. It was also not intended to be run with GWX on SH3! Anybody who does one of these things doesn't have the right to say "RSRDC's units should be the bug reasons." No, the bug here is the player, mixing mods that are incompatible. Anything that happens when you do that is unpredictable and the modder bears no responsibility for the outcome.

Some modders can handle this gracefully and some cannot. Ducimus and Lurker? Not so well. And other modders who didn't rebuke such pronouncements of bugs in their mods quit because they became discouraged from all the complaints.

The long and the short of it is when you mix incompatible mods and get strangeness that is predictable. Sometimes, like this time, it's entertaining enough to declare a "magical torpedo party!" But the responsibility for fixing it is the player's, not the modder's. Sometimes the modder will be interested enough to take a look. But they aren't under any obligation to do so.

Seems to me you have something more going on than torpedoes that penetrate hulls intact. You also have LEVITATING TORPEDOES, which, when they enter the air inside the ship, don't fall! Oooooooooo spooky!:har:

Because the torpedo acts like it's swimming through water, I propose that the numbers that tell the AI where the torpedo is are different from where the eye candy routines draw the torpedo. I would guess the real location of the mathematical torpedo is several feet below the keel. Remember: in the game what you see is not reality. Reality is a bunch of mathematical formulas that you cannot see. You're looking at eye candy, which means not much.

To test this, set torpedoes to run on the surface and torpedo the same ship. I'd love to see what happens.

[propbeanie]

Well, the MediaFire viewer still won't load on my machine... anyway, I copied it over to my photobucket as a jpeg, so just click on the "Spoiler" box, and it should show. Very interesting shot:

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah223/propbeanie/JeffG/SH4Img2016-12-31_13.05.33_500_zpsdnqpjlxq.jpg

[Rockin Robbins]

If you're going to do a magic trick and levitate that torpedo, doesn't the magician's union require you to put a scantily clad pretty girl on top of the torpedo gesturing grandly?:har::har::har:

Mediafire viewer not working for me either.

[propbeanie]

Did somebody say "girls"?...

I thought the player might have just been my machine, but apparently not...

[yyzBegonia]

To test this, set torpedoes to run on the surface and torpedo the same ship. I'd love to see what happens.

I tried it, however torpedoes can't be set to run 'right' on the surface apparently. I set it into the shallowest running depth, about 1 meter (perhaps about 3 ft? I'm not sure because I'm using metric) and fire. Once again, they penetrated through the hull.

[Rockin Robbins]

I tried it, however torpedoes can't be set to run 'right' on the surface apparently. I set it into the shallowest running depth, about 1 meter (perhaps about 3 ft? I'm not sure because I'm using metric) and fire. Once again, they penetrated through the hull.
That's really interesting. Guess I'll have to check it out myself and see if I can figure something out.

No collision either means that the torpedo's mathematical position isn't there or the mathematical position of the hull isn't there, so although the eye candy renders the objects where we expect the actual "bookkeeping" of the program is cooked so there is no collision. No collision, no explosion.

So the formula is:
TMO
RSRD v502
RSRD patch
NSM 4.0


This ought to be fun!

Okay, I'm looking at the download page of NSM 4.0 and there is Webster saying:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Selection_062_zpsu4jeildu.jpg

When Webster says something like that it's probably time to take a step back and survey the lay of the land. So I look inside NSM. First, I see that he's messed with the deck gun and torpedo settings. Delete the Library subdirectory in NSM and they're gone. Now let's check the mod and see if there's any improvement.

[propbeanie]

I was just over in the RSRDC investigating stuff for FotRS Ultimate, and the way they used NSM 3.3 back then was to load it first, then do TMO & RSRDC. I don't know if changing the order would help, or if it'd trash other things...

[Rockin Robbins]

Not being one to heed warnings, I bravely (?) forged forward! Loaded up TMO and patch only. Fire up the mission: boom! boom! boom! boom!

Well, I expected that, now how about with TMO and RSRDC plus RSRDC patch. Boom! boom! etc.

Load up NSM on top of the combo and torpedoes pass through the hull. Which is good. If you really want to have fun surface and man the deck gun. You'll only have HE shells to choose from for some reason. Pop Mogami in the superstructure and the whole computer freezes up. I had to hit the reset button and reboot!

What's happening was discovered by the FOTRS Ultimate team when we started playing with Mission Editor files. Now each scenario in the game, including the torpedo training mission is made with the Mission Editor.

We discovered that the Mission Editor makes missions based on whatever mods are installed into SH4 at the time the missions are made! Suppose you make a mission with a ship in it. You've been playing RSRDC or FOTRSU and are unknowingly using a ship that only appears in that mod, not the stock game when you make the mission. You have no idea that the Mission Editor, an entirely different program than SH4.exe would do such a thing.

But if you load up the mission you created in a stock game, the game will look for a ship which doesn't exist. CRASH! In this case the ship exists, but changes have been made in it that the mission can't accept. just as soon as a shell hits the superstructure the game freezes. And since the ship doesn't exist, torpedoes pass right through it. And they should pass through a ship that doesn't exist.

The Torpedo Training mission within SH4 is not compatible with TMO/RSRDC/NSM because of incompatible changes NSM makes with the ship files. I still don't know if that is also true of the simple TMO/NSM combination. It probably is not because TMO wouldn't have changed the zones of the stock Mogami.

[Rockin Robbins]

I was just over in the RSRDC investigating stuff for FotRS Ultimate, and the way they used NSM 3.3 back then was to load it first, then do TMO & RSRDC. I don't know if changing the order would help, or if it'd trash other things...
WernerSobe in NSM 4.0 documentation says always load NSM last.

[propbeanie]

Well, that kills that then...:03:

[Rockin Robbins]

I found another clue! Hyperbolicsphere uses TMO/RSRDC/NSM and found that there are two RSRDC ships that don't play well with NSM. They are Mogami and Okinoshima. He says:
I run 1.5 + TMO 2.5 + RSRDC. NSM4 works well with TMO 2.5, but I've never been able to get all three to work together. It's tantalizingly close. The only conflicts between NSM4 and RSRDC are NCA_Mogami.zon and Okinoshima.sim. The obvious solutions haven't worked (substituting or removing files or folders), and the typical error is that torpedoes pass through their targets and continue to run out the other side. I've had some success by enabling mods in the order TMO 2.5, NSM4, RSRDC, RSRDC patch, but this is unpredictable, and the natural sinking effect is lost. I get a fast-kill, slow-sink effect, which is playable, but unsatisfying.

I have never attempted to mod this game, myself. I feel like this should be an easy fix, if only I knew howSo it's not as bad as we might have feared. Hyperbolicsphere confirms that NSM works well with SH4 v1.5, in spite of WernerSobe's warning. I'll have to try NSM with FOTRSU and see if any of our ships are similarly affected. By the way, the soul of FOTRSU was transplanted verbatim from a v 1.4 mod! I would guess that redefined stock warships would be the only candidates. I don't have a clue what could turn the collision detector off.

Prime candidates for figuring out the solution to the problem, and it is likely to be simple, would be Lurker_hlb himself, if he were around, CapnScurvy and Jeff-Groves. Iambecomelife might be your best candidate as he builds ships from scratch, but he's busily creating something greater than a supermod. It's going to have to be somebody as interested as I am but a better modder in that area of the game.