Why Trump - the white riot

[Catfish]

"The white riot, how racism and immigration gave us Trump, Brexit and a whole new kind of politics"

Not easy to swallow, but well worth reading:
http://www.vox.com/2016/9/19/12933072/far-right-white-riot-trump-brexit

[agathosdaimon]

i am relieved that people on this forum seem to grasp the grave seriousness of electing a sociopath to run and to now have free licence to do whatever he wants in the US and the world with a party of sociopaths controlling all the branches of government, who are not going to stand up to him at all , and in fact their own plans are just as terrifying and they are more bent on pushing them through, which given how little trump reads, will probably sail through with no mention at all.

[Torplexed]

Perhaps the most surprising predictor of a Trump victory was the filmmaker and progressive gadfly Michael Moore. In the youtube video from July it is him saying, “unless we face facts, this is what’s going to happen.” Looking at it now after the election, it goes beyond “he called it.” This is crystal ball stuff, and it shows how well Moore understands the power and mindset of poor white voters. Particularly those from the rust belt in a way that many liberals doomed themselves by ignoring or underestimating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_g-OP290UE

“I sorry to have to be the buzz-killer here … but I think Trump is going to win … I live in Michigan, let me tell you, it’s going to be the Brexit strategy.”

[August]

i am relieved that people on this forum seem to grasp the grave seriousness of electing a sociopath to run and to now have free licence to do whatever he wants in the US and the world with a party of sociopaths controlling all the branches of government, who are not going to stand up to him at all , and in fact their own plans are just as terrifying and they are more bent on pushing them through, which given how little trump reads, will probably sail through with no mention at all.

What's next? Are you going to call those that voted for him a "Basket of Deplorables"?

[AndyJWest]

What's next? Are you going to call those that voted for him a "Basket of Deplorables"?

The thing is with living in a democracy that considers 'free speech' to be an essential right is that it involves having to see opinions you don't like occasionally.

[August]

The thing is with living in a democracy that considers 'free speech' to be an essential right is that it involves having to see opinions you don't like occasionally.

Doesn't this essential free speech you talk about extend to the right to say what I think of those opinions?

[AndyJWest]

Doesn't this essential free speech you talk about extend to the right to say what I think of those opinions?

It does. It also entitles others to respond to your indignant objections to something nobody actually said.

[Onkel Neal]

"The white riot, how racism and immigration gave us Trump, Brexit and a whole new kind of politics"

Not easy to swallow, but well worth reading:
http://www.vox.com/2016/9/19/12933072/far-right-white-riot-trump-brexit

When white people attempt to use their political will to pull their country out of the trash heap, it's called racism. Notice liberals don't spend much time calling black people racist when they turn out in record numbers to elect the first "black" president? Or when Middle Eastern inhabitants denigrate Western culture? Or when Hispanics demand the US pull down its borders and dismantle its immigration laws in order to allow more Hispanics to enter? You think the Hispanics would be so motivated to allow millions of Frenchmen to enter the US? Never hear them make a peep about this.

[August]

It does. It also entitles others to respond to your indignant objections to something nobody actually said.

Nobody? Seems to me that I just heard some Democrat bigwig use that exact term just recently.

In any case now that we have established that we both still have the right to object maybe you can tell me why he calls half the country sociopaths or supporters of sociopaths and you only complain that I asked him if he was going to use the same insult that got that line of thinking defeated at the polls just this past tuesday. Perhaps you'd prefer I used another the words of another Democrat bigwig and call them bitter clingers instead.

FWIW this is actually a pretty interesting exchange for me because it's evidence that the Democrats have not learned anything from their defeat at the polls.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I disagree with linked article, even though racism certainly plays some role.

If this was merely about racism, then Finland doesn't fit into picture. Finns Party gained its greatest victories when a) immigrant situation was quite stabile and b) other political parties were in middle of financial misconduct scandal.

Refugee crisis began well before latest parliamentary elections and logically there should have been surge in Finns Party popularity. That didn't happen, instead Greens (+5 seats, +1,5 points popularity) and Centre (+14 seats, +5,3 points popularity) parties got electoral victories at expense of everyone else except Swedish People's Party which retained its seats. Finns Party lost one seat and -1,4 in popularty, but as everyone else crashed that was enough for second largest seat number and third highest popularity.

Finns Party got into government because a) National Coalition and Social Democrats do not fit into same government and b) there was no sufficient support for centre-left government. Unfortunate outcome is that government can't operate without Finns Party support so they have significant leverage on Finnish goverment policies.

There certainly is very large and influential racist far-right section within Finns Party. However it alone is not enough to explain party's popularity and support.

2015 Finnish parliamentary election results are available here: http://vaalit.yle.fi/tulospalvelu/2015/eduskuntavaalit/?puolueet_##graafi

[Rockstar]

Well worth the read indeed. That is the most idiotic and racist article I've read to date, you should be ashamed for being so weak minded and taking up precious bandwidth to post such drivel.

The reality is the voters which turned out for this event is much more intergrated and dynamic than you have been told to think and then regurgitate said crap here. I truely hope this was just a troll and you or anyone else are not actually taking this article seriously.

[Oberon]

Yeah, there is perhaps some element of racism in there, but it's just one part of the spectrum of Trump voters. There's all kinds of nasty and also all kinds of not-nasty. To say that just nasties voted Trump is to drastically underestimate the scale of the situation and, indeed, dismiss the underlying problems. There's all kinds of differences in this, age, gender, race, trends that people are going to pick over for the next four years, some examples I will drag from the BBC and post below:

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/F7E9/production/_92356436_us_elections_2016_exit_polls_race_624-2.png

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/115D/production/_92354440_us_elections_2016_exit_polls_age_624-1.png


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37889032


Time will tell.

[Rockstar]

OK lets take a poll: any whites males here who voted because you are an extreme right wing neo nazi nationalists who hates brown people and wants to close borders not letting anyone in and demand your lost white priveledge returned to you?

Dont you see how stupid this arguement is. What a bunch of simple minded extremists, go read a book for change.

[Bilge_Rat]

VOX is a liberal rag. During the election campaign, it basically functioned as the press arm for the Clinton campaign. It has no credibility whatsoever.

In fact, many publications completely destroyed their credibility during the campaign by being outrageously anti-Trump, such as POLITICO, VOX, SLATE, NY Times, Washington Post.

The only site which was objective and is now my first go to site for the day's political news is REAL CLEAR POLITICS. :up:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/

REAL CLEAR POLITICS was also the only site that on Monday was showing the race as a dead heat while everyone else was already celebrating President-elect Clinton. :ping:

[Bilge_Rat]

If you do want to read a good article on President-elect Trump, read this one:



PITTSBURGH—“Running for president is a very important endeavor,” Donald Trump said. “What is more important, right?”

He leaned forward on his chair, separated by a heavy black curtain in a makeshift green room from the crowd waiting to hear him speak at the Shale Insight Conference.

“I am running because, number one, I think I will do a very good job. Number two, it’s really about making American great again.” He paused, as if realizing that repeating his campaign slogan might not seem genuine.

“I mean that; I really do want to make America great again,” he said. “That is what it is all about.”

The 70-year-old Republican nominee took his time walking from the green room toward the stage. He stopped to chat with the waiters, service workers, police officers, and other convention staffers facilitating the event. There were no selfies, no glad-handing for votes, no trailing television cameras. Out of view of the press, Trump warmly greets everyone he sees, asks how they are, and, when he can, asks for their names and what they do.

“I am blown away!” said one worker, an African American man who asked for anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to speak to the press. “The man I just saw there talking to people is nothing like what I’ve seen, day in and day out, in the news.”




and the real reason why the bi-coastal liberal elite does not get Trump:

It’s a familiar split. When he makes claims like this, the press takes him literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally.

When I presented that thought to him, he paused again, “Now that’s interesting.”

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

[August]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37889032

Not that i'm disagreeing with them but I wonder if the estimates on those charts were calculated with the same algorithms that the media used to figure the Democrats had a winning hand in the last election.

[Rockstar]

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/11/09/statement-president

I thought this was a good read. Of course some of you extremists will pervert it into something its not, but I understand its in your nature.

[Rockstar]

Not that i'm disagreeing with them but I wonder if the estimates on those charts were calculated with the same algorithms that the media used to figure the Democrats had a winning hand in the last election.


These days its easy for extremists to find online polls and artcles which agree with their extremist world view.

[agathosdaimon]

my post wasnt a focus on calling the trump voters anything at all - alot of people would have voted for him for alot of different reasons, and he threw out alot of different mesages all the way through.

You can be as unnecessarily defensive trying to put words in my moouth, but the facts stand on what now Trump and the GOP with no resistance want to do and will be doing

goodbye obamacare for those who relied on it
goodbye EPA for those who like drinkable water and breathable air
goodbye FDA for those who like food safety regulations - you know the things that enable consumer to purchase food without the anxiety of wondering whether it will contain ecoli or whether the milk they feed their family isnt tainted with heavy metals

and most sickening of all because this will affect the whole world Trump wants to make coal and oil and fossil fuels dominant again - so runaway climate catastrophe is going to come sooner then ever - so that reign of death and destruction is what we and our children will have to deal with
There is little difference between the coming Trump Reign of Terrror and what here in Australia Pauline Hanson's Extreme far right One Nation party only dreams of being able to do. USA now gets to have a Pauline Hanson One Nation Party x10000
its pretty much the end of the world, i dont really know how else to describe it - and instead of trying to stave it off.. these dog headed dullards are just choosing instead to put bricks on the accelerator and drive this burning dump truck over the cliff.. and no, we dont get to watch and laugh, we are all on it whether we want to be or not.


The voters are not to blame, the people with deplorable views would not be the majority of those voting (at least i hope)

the system has been rigged to allow a one party government answerable now to no one..

[Aktungbby]

Perhaps the most surprising predictor of a Trump victory was the filmmaker and progressive gadfly Michael Moore. In the youtube video from July it is him saying, “unless we face facts, this is what’s going to happen.” Looking at it now after the election, it goes beyond “he called it.” This is crystal ball stuff, and it shows how well Moore understands the power and mindset of poor white voters. Particularly those from the rust belt in a way that many liberals doomed themselves by ignoring or underestimating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_g-OP290UE As I've Already pointed out...twice::Kaleun_Cheers: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2445598#post2445598 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2445598#post2445598)

[Rockstar]

my post wasnt a focus on calling the trump voters anything at all - alot of people would have voted for him for alot of different reasons, and he threw out alot of different mesages all the way through.

You can be as unnecessarily defensive trying to put words in my moouth, but the facts stand on what now Trump and the GOP with no resistance want to do and will be doing

goodbye obamacare for those who relied on it
goodbye EPA for those who like drinkable water and breathable air
goodbye FDA for those who like food safety regulations - you know the things that enable consumer to purchase food without the anxiety of wondering whether it will contain ecoli or whether the milk they feed their family isnt tainted with heavy metals

and most sickening of all because this will affect the whole world Trump wants to make coal and oil and fossil fuels dominant again - so runaway climate catastrophe is going to come sooner then ever - so that reign of death and destruction is what we and our children will have to deal with
There is little difference between the coming Trump Reign of Terrror and what here in Australia Pauline Hanson's Extreme far right One Nation party only dreams of being able to do. USA now gets to have a Pauline Hanson One Nation Party x10000
its pretty much the end of the world, i dont really know how else to describe it - and instead of trying to stave it off.. these dog headed dullards are just choosing instead to put bricks on the accelerator and drive this burning dump truck over the cliff.. and no, we dont get to watch and laugh, we are all on it whether we want to be or not.


The voters are not to blame, the people with deplorable views would not be the majority of those voting (at least i hope)

the system has been rigged to allow a one party government answerable now to no one..


http://m.quickmeme.com/img/07/07d47b2227f592e9e53bbfe1fea7c0da1192205fb254416b66 b1a80d0c25620f.jpg

[agathosdaimon]

http://m.quickmeme.com/img/07/07d47b2227f592e9e53bbfe1fea7c0da1192205fb254416b66 b1a80d0c25620f.jpg


you dont believe me?

its on his new webiste.
he has been saying this in his rallies, and the GOP has been say all this too -

from http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trumps-fda-plan-should-raise-concerns-americans-who-eat-food

"Congressional Republicans have pushed for years to scale back (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/congress-approach-food-safety-tough-swallow) those food safeguards, and as of yesterday, Donald Trump made clear he intends to do exactly that (http://thehill.com/regulation/healthcare/296152-trump-says-he-would-eliminate-food-safety-regulations) if elected.
In a fact sheet Thursday, the campaign highlighted a number of “specific regulations to be eliminated” under the GOP nominee’s economic plan, including what they called the “FDA Food Police.”

Of particular interest, the Trump campaign complained about FDA rules on issues such as inspections of food facilities, the temperatures at which food is stored safely, and “farm and food production hygiene.”
In other words, under a Trump administration, federal officials would oversee food safety from the perspective that, when it comes to food production, there’s too much focus right now on safety and hygiene.

The good news is, if you don’t eat food, you have nothing to worry about. Everyone else, however, should probably take note."

http://www.salon.com/2016/09/15/trump-targets-the-fda-food-police-calls-for-elimination-of-food-safety-regulations-in-new-tax-plan/


I dont really know why people are not more alarmed about the one party state wants to do - actually many people are alarmed but of course any pro trump, pro republican media just ignores discussing any policy at length at all.

I hope i am wrong, i hope all the things Trump and the GOP are promising, they inexplicably decide not to do... and i hope we have a world that is not in a variety of stages of economic, social and ecological collapse

[Bilge_Rat]

first of all, if you want your argument to be taken seriously, you need to present objective sources. Rachel Meadows and SALON and very pro-Clinton/anti-Trump.

It is way too early to know what President Trump's administration will do.

As I recall, Reagan's election in 1980 was also the beginning of the apocalypse...:hmmm:



p.s. - President Trump, I have to admit I like the sound of that...:yep:

[Rockstar]

you dont believe me?

I believe you believe that. :Kaleun_Wink:

Anyway, you wont have anything to worry about it. Because Obama is going to obolish constitution and become dictator for life the day before Trumps inauguration.

[Sailor Steve]

I'm sorry, but it's hard to take that article seriously when the author is either lying or doesn't understand what he's saying.

Everyone knew what the dog whistle meant, of course. The FN’s rhetoric functioned almost exactly like Trump’s claims (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/06/16/full-text-donald-trump-announces-a-presidential-bid/) that Mexicans are "rapists" who are "bringing crime" to the US — that is, to signal to xenophobes that it stood with them without overtly espousing white supremacy.

At least he did put in a link to the actual speech, in which Trump did not liken all Mexicans to "rapists" who are "bringing crime"... He said that US is becoming a "dumping ground for everybody else's problems". He says that "They're sending people with lots of problems", and then he lists those problems. He also finishes with "And some, I assume, are good people."

"It's coming from more than Mexico. It's coming from all over South and Latin America, and it's coming probably -- probably -- from the Middle East. But we don't know. Because we have no protection and we have no competence, we don't know what's happening. And it's got to stop and it's got to stop fast."

I don't like Trump, and I didn't vote for him, but I honestly don't see how those comments are racist. This sounds more and more to me like angry ranting from people who didn't get their own way.

[Oberon]

These days its easy for extremists to find online polls and artcles which agree with their extremist world view.

Yup.

Here's the guys that did the polls so judge for yourself whatever you want to think about them:

http://www.edisonresearch.com/makes-exit-poll-legitimate/

[agathosdaimon]

my focus here is on what teh GOP want to do and will now get to do, - and i know maddow and msnbc have their biases, but they were quoting what Trump is wanting to do regarding food safety regulation.

but hey, i hope i am wrong, i really do. I hope people can still form class actions against corporations even though the GOP wants to end this from being possible.
I hope the freedom of the press will remain - it has been abolished in Russia and can just as easily now happen in the USA and Trump has expressed his desire to go after journalists already.

The whole - you article is biased thing, matters if it is just opinion yes, i agree, but when citing what the people in question are saying themselves, it is those we are to judge. We also can see now what is on the new Trump website some also of what they all want to do.
Remember Trump is the guy who tried to sue The Onion.

[Oberon]

my focus here is on what teh GOP want to do and will now get to do,

The key is how much the GOP and Trump will see eye to eye. There is certainly a blank card here for the GOP to do whatever it wants, and we know that the GOP is all about cutting everything it can get its hands on that even smells of government, so some of these wild speculations might well happen, but equally some might not. After all, we had eight years of Dubya before this, and while America didn't exactly prosper, it didn't exactly crash and burn either. Well...not for reasons that were under Dubyas control anyway.

The biggest problem, in my opinion, is that he was elected despite what he said, which has basically said that it's ok to be like Trump, it's ok to say what Trump said, and do what he did or was alledged to have done, and that's going to create some very nasty situations for people.
And then there's Pence...I feel bad for women and the LBTGQ community with him around as VP, it's a definite setback for them, but the people who voted for Trump don't really care about that, so what can you do? :ping:

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

The whole - you article is biased thing, matters if it is just opinion yes, i agree, but when citing what the people in question are saying themselves, it is those we are to judge.Problem here is - as Steve already pointed out - that both sides have quoted otherside's candidates selectively. If you see controversial "quote" from someone, if at all possible take a long breath and listen the full speech or interview of person in question.

Selective quoting isn't practice limited to elections either. It happens every now and then even when people are making supposedly nonpartisan documentaries.

[agathosdaimon]

yes i agree, the validation it gives to bigotry and violence and sexual assault is all quite distressing, - the worst in humanity is coming out , - there have been some friends on fb reporting of mexican women in their town having dog excrement thrown at them, and in Albuquerque shops putting whites only signs in their windows, and elsewhere a brown skinned person being told they cant ride the bus anymore - i forget where that was.

I think the most unnerving thing i read was that Gay bar patrons in New Orleans have allegedly been told to "Get ready, fags" by hecklers after the election. - i hope this one is not true, because it has just this horrible, numbing vibe of something coming.... if it is true, i hope it is no more than empty threats, but even these are corrosive enough to the social fabric

[Bilge_Rat]

And then there's Pence...I feel bad for women and the LBTGQ community with him around as VP, it's a definite setback for them, but the people who voted for Trump don't really care about that, so what can you do? :ping:

53% of white women voted for Trump, 10% more than voted for Clinton. White women represented 37% of voters.

http://www.cnn.com/election/results/exit-polls/national/president

you really think white women don't care what happens to women?

We really have to get past this Clintonite/Dem propaganda that Trump, the GOP and their supporters are all sexist, racist, fascists, etc.

[Onkel Neal]

yes i agree, the validation it gives to bigotry and violence and sexual assault is all quite distressing, - the worst in humanity is coming out , - there have been some friends on fb reporting of mexican women in their town having dog excrement thrown at them, and in Albuquerque shops putting whites only signs in their windows, and elsewhere a brown skinned person being told they cant ride the bus anymore - i forget where that was.





I seriously doubt any of that has substance. Scaremongering.

Don't worry, there are plenty of us non-PC Americans who won't sit idly by for something like that.

[Oberon]

yes i agree, the validation it gives to bigotry and violence and sexual assault is all quite distressing, - the worst in humanity is coming out , - there have been some friends on fb reporting of mexican women in their town having dog excrement thrown at them, and in Albuquerque shops putting whites only signs in their windows, and elsewhere a brown skinned person being told they cant ride the bus anymore - i forget where that was.

I think the most unnerving thing i read was that Gay bar patrons in New Orleans have allegedly been told to "Get ready, fags" by hecklers after the election. - i hope this one is not true, because it has just this horrible, numbing vibe of something coming.... if it is true, i hope it is no more than empty threats, but even these are corrosive enough to the social fabric

Hate crime is going to rise, I'm sorry to report, but it will and it will rise by a double digit percentage. After Brexit we had a lot of similar incidents, and I believe hate crime reports rose by between 40-60%. For certain groups of people, America is going to be a nasty place to live for the next few months.

[Oberon]

I seriously doubt any of that has substance. Scaremongering.

Don't worry, there are plenty of us non-PC Americans who won't sit idly by for something like that.

It'll happen, Neal, and there'll be more. I'm sorry but there's a deep undercurrent of some very nasty sentiment in society right now and having a man who has appealed to some of those people become President has brought that undercurrent bubbling to the surface, it's encouraged them.
Take what has happened here as an example as what is going to happen to the US:

http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/10/brext-hate-crimes/503951/

https://www.ft.com/content/9b2ec1a6-912c-11e6-a72e-b428cb934b78


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-wins-racist-racism-race-hate-immigrants-nigel-farage-ukip-brexit-post-referendum-a7407951.html

[agathosdaimon]

Problem here is - as Steve already pointed out - that both sides have quoted otherside's candidates selectively. If you see controversial "quote" from someone, if at all possible take a long breath and listen the full speech or interview of person in question.

Selective quoting isn't practice limited to elections either. It happens every now and then even when people are making supposedly nonpartisan documentaries.

but this kind of opinion on citing anything then falls into being part of some infallible narrative - ie, thats a selective quote it doesnt matter -okay, so what only texts in full should be posted? no one should do documentaries? no one should quote anyone?
No matter what one says, once we settle our minds on one perspective or another no amount of information to the contrary will change the side we have picked to be on it seems.

I think rather than just dismissing every quote or worse, the very concept of quoting at all, out of hand, we should hear and respond always to the information presented. This is how a constructive discussion can be had, we work through the information that each side presents, and if something that one side presents is false, then the side saying it is false should give explanation as to why they believe it so - and by this i mean the content of what is said, not just running with the pre-formed view because so and so said it, it must by virtue of this be false..... claiming someone is biased is meaningless if what they are pointing out are the actual sentences uttered or statements written. The person may very well have their own political affiliation, but pretty much everyone does and anyone who claims they dont, well each side just accuses them of bias as soon as that "neutral" person says something that conflicts with a position that one side holds

claiming every time some information doesnt fit ones narrative that said information can be ignored because a biased person said it, really makes any kind of discussion impossible doesnt it?

[Skybird]

I say I do not expect much from this new administration.

BUT:

lets give them a chance at least to mess things up - or to surprise everybody for the better.

Campaigning is one thing, and it is a good argument against modern so-called democracy itself, as already either Mark Twain or Churchill observed and stated. The everyday political decision making and governing - that is something totally different. Trump at least was witty enough to make not millions but billions, so as long as he was not rightout criminal or was rightout lucky all the time, he cannot be that dumb as he posed as in campaign.

Clinton said: now the man deserves a chance. I say: now give him at least a chance. He would not be the first who had either his wings cut by the needs of reality - or who learned by the burdens of the office to grow beyond his initial limits. Obama was hyped so much 9 years ago that he seemed to jump like a tiger - but he landed like a bedside rug. Or does anyone still think he is the revoked messiah who left heaven and came down to Earth again, like some people seemed to have thougt 8 years ago? The same fate can happen to Trump: high flying claims and plans, little deeds, and a negative total bilance.

Trump has one huge advantage, although this is, by its essence and nature, also a risk: he is not well-connected and established in the political establishment, and maybe will not care to shake and to rattle it up. That can be a good thing. The risk there is, is that he may practice kind of nepotism when finding personnel for his round tables and boards of advisors.

But that is somethign the two parties are practicing since decades themselves.

People wanted to elect a president, and so they did. Lets see how he performs. Condemning him we can do when we see he starts to mess things up even more than they already are. - Where is the outrage over Obama's disastrous fiscal bilance, and debts that exploded in his spending frenzy? His massive geostrategic weaking of the US role in the world, his violation of fundamental American and Wetsern geostrategic interests? Over the falling number of total jobs, usually hidden behind claims that of these fewer jobs less jobs stay open and unemployed ? His administration paints losses in available job numbers as growing employment rates, which is not hilarious anymore, but is rightout fraudulent statistics. The only positive thing I say about Obama is that he did not start, like many of his predecessors, additonal new wars that were no wars of need but wars that were desired. And even that gets thrown a shadow on by the fact that he has multiplied the dimension of constant American drone warfare and number of "collateral damages".

So really: give Trump those 100 or even 200 days and see what he wants and what he does. And then we talk again. I gave Obama that chance. I gave Bush that chance. Both failed. Still I give Trump that same chance. And this although I absolutely cannot stand this man.

Less emotion and more plain soberness. Before he can be assessed, he needs some time to actually produce something that can be assessed.

[GoldenRivet]

they wont be happy until whites in America exist only in the text of history books

then they wont be happy until all those books are burned

...........

i didn't vote for trump because he was white. i was equally prepared to vote for ben carson or allen west (God willing he runs one day!), neither of whom are white (i didnt vote in any of the primaries... my bad, i was too damned busy working for a living)

As a good for nothing whip cracking honky (because clearly thats how the left views me) It took me two minutes to vote, and in that two minutes i had a voice that said; i am sick of a government which can force me to buy a product or service under duress, i am sick of a government that uses every tragedy as a knee jerk reaction to further limit my constitutional rights, i am sick of a government that rewards me for my 90 hour work week by stealing $20-25,000 of my annual income for pet projects and failing, corrupt social programs.

I'm tired of a congress that rams bills through their hallowed halls without reading them. I'm tired of congressmen who can sit, unchallenged for decades. I have had enough of an administration that completes illegal, back alley deals with Iran in the middle of the night. I have had enough of an administration that scorns police and celebrates criminal behavior and thug culture. I am done with a government that abandons our allies, and our veterans, and leaves out soldiers to die by ignoring 13 hours of requests for backup and then says "what difference does it make?"...

So fine, i give up, if having an opinion that differs from yours and voting for a candidate with whom i agree and you do not is my "white riot" - to hell with it... i guess thats exactly what i did.

[AVGWarhawk]

i am relieved that people on this forum seem to grasp the grave seriousness of electing a sociopath to run and to now have free licence to do whatever he wants in the US and the world with a party of sociopaths controlling all the branches of government, who are not going to stand up to him at all , and in fact their own plans are just as terrifying and they are more bent on pushing them through, which given how little trump reads, will probably sail through with no mention at all.

I'm sorry guy, I just can't get onboard with Myle Cyrus dry screwing women and holding blown up penises while performing. The sociopaths have spoken. It appears they have been silent for the past 8 years.

[AVGWarhawk]

When white people attempt to use their political will to pull their country out of the trash heap, it's called racism. Notice liberals don't spend much time calling black people racist when they turn out in record numbers to elect the first "black" president? Or when Middle Eastern inhabitants denigrate Western culture? Or when Hispanics demand the US pull down its borders and dismantle its immigration laws in order to allow more Hispanics to enter? You think the Hispanics would be so motivated to allow millions of Frenchmen to enter the US? Never hear them make a peep about this.

The blacks coming out to vote BO is affectionately called the Obama Coalition. The angry white dudes are affectionately known as Deplorables. As a side note...there are plenty angry white ladies that voted Trump.

In the meantime Kellyanne Conway ran a resounding campaign for Trump. FIRST WOMAN TO DO SO! Not a peep from say oh...the hags on The View.

[Onkel Neal]

It'll happen, Neal, and there'll be more. I'm sorry but there's a deep undercurrent of some very nasty sentiment in society right now and having a man who has appealed to some of those people become President has brought that undercurrent bubbling to the surface, it's encouraged them.
Take what has happened here as an example as what is going to happen to the US:

http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/10/brext-hate-crimes/503951/

https://www.ft.com/content/9b2ec1a6-912c-11e6-a72e-b428cb934b78


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-wins-racist-racism-race-hate-immigrants-nigel-farage-ukip-brexit-post-referendum-a7407951.html

You sure know a lot for a guy who's never been here.

So much distortion coming from those links, I'm not even going to bother.

[STEED]

Trump is not in the White House yet and people seem to think they know all the facts on what he will do. So can you tell me Saturday's national lottery winning numbers? :03:

[Skybird]

For whatever it is worth, here is a comment by Henryk Broder, in German, focussing on the typical German and EUcratic arrogant and haughty reaction to Trump's victory.

Especially Merkel'S reaction, when I heard it yesterday, left me speechless regarding the ammount of arrogance and reality-disconnection she shamelessly displayed - as if she, Germany, us, would be in any position to lecture America this way. Disgusting. You hold such speeches when you are in the stronger seat of the two. Not when you are the net benefitter sitting in the weaker seatand depending more on the other than the other depends on you.

Interestingly she does not direct such words at heads of states that already do damage - Erdoghan for example. Merkel is still quite cozy to him. No German demand voiced this clearly to respect "shared values" when referring to Turkey.

https://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article159400813/Ein-Hoehenflug-von-Arroganz-und-Verachtung.html

I do not hide that I feel some Schadenfreude for the European self-proclaimed elites in their ivory towers, and I hope that Trump plays tough on us - we deserve it, I think. We have taken the free ride America privides us with especially in the field of military and security since much too long time already. Time to learn again how it tastes to need caring for our safety all by ourselves again, instead of bribing ourselves out of all messes we manouver ourselves into in our moral quest to missionize the world with our superior socialist and politically most correct "values".

Yes, some Schadenfreude on my side for sure. After all, I'm still just human.

[Oberon]

You sure know a lot for a guy who's never been here.

So much distortion coming from those links, I'm not even going to bother.

Ah, the location defence, excellent. Well done.

I hope that America proves me wrong, I hope that these non-PC Americans of yours come out and defend the people who are going to get attacked, and yes, that includes the possibility of Trump supporters being attacked too before someone starts, no-one should have to face persecution because of their religion, race, sexual orientation, gender or political choices.
Unfortunately in the aftermath of our referendum, thanks to some of the rhetoric used during it, people were facing persecution and discrimination for one or more of those reasons, and I don't think that saying "It couldn't happen here" will defend America from the same outcome.
On the bright-side, the spike does seem to have calmed back down again now, presumably for us because the Brexit process is proceding at the speed of a flattened snail, but it gave that nasty side of society an airing because people in important places said things that resonated with them.

Of course, I'm just a foreigner, so who knows, eh? :subsim:

[Oberon]

they wont be happy until whites in America exist only in the text of history books

then they wont be happy until all those books are burned

...........


Really? :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Kris Kobach, Mr S.B. 1070 has been named on Trumps transition team.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdnWUX-zqao

[nikimcbee]

"The white riot, how racism and immigration gave us Trump, Brexit and a whole new kind of politics"

Not easy to swallow, but well worth reading:
http://www.vox.com/2016/9/19/12933072/far-right-white-riot-trump-brexit

You mean, how Soros funding gave us the riots?

"How running the most hated and corrupt candidate we could find gave us Trump."

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/60786153.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

You mean, how Soros funding gave us the riots?

"How running the most hated and corrupt candidate we could find gave us Trump."




Exactly. Hillary is the worst possible candidate they could have nominated.

[nikimcbee]

Exactly. Hillary is the worst possible candidate they could have nominated.

They should've gone with Biden, then it would have been Doofus vs Doofus.

[GoldenRivet]

Really? :hmmm:

when folks are being pulled out of their cars and brutally beaten because they have a trump pence bumper sticker

yes

really

[eddie]

Everyone is worried about Trump and what he plans to do. Shouldn't they be worried about Obama since he is still in Office? I mean for 8 years we listened to the tripe about him taking away their guns, FEMA death camps, building a secret army to take over the country, declare martial law and then declare himself President for life, C'mon it could still happen!:har:

[Oberon]

when folks are being pulled out of their cars and brutally beaten because they have a trump pence bumper sticker

yes

really

Uh huh...

Fair enough...

:hmmm:

[yubba]

I survived 8 years of this obamination,, Saul Alinsky nightmare ,,you little snowflakes need to get over yourselves,,and grab up a copy of the Constitution,,and a American History book and educate yourself in the workings of the country you live in.. Then you can tell me where communism ever worked with out killing millions

[yubba]

Everyone is worried about Trump and what he plans to do. Shouldn't they be worried about Obama since he is still in Office? I mean for 8 years we listened to the tripe about him taking away their guns, FEMA death camps, building a secret army to take over the country, declare martial law and then declare himself President for life, C'mon it could still happen!:har:


all that never happened because,,, either liberals couldn't get off the couch,, it was cold out,, their favorite tv program was on hhmmmm that's the same as couldn't get off the couch,,, or just plain yellow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHiJ07GodXA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbSNfbWbjCY

[mapuc]

There's always a reason to why a person or persons vote for a special person or party.

To point finger at this/those person or persons and accuse this person or them to be racist or worse thing-is wrong.

By doing this you make the problem bigger.

Because the only thing that will happen is that this "silent crowd" will grow and one day they will put their vote on a person who will be a real dictatur or a second Hitler.

I have the last 24 hours seen people on FB saying that those who voted Trump got no common sense or worse thing.

Markus

[Rockstar]

You know what I want to see happen right now? I want the moderators to issue a warrant for the arrest and an internet wide BOLO for one cunning and elusive character known as Catfish.. When found have him arrested for felony Hit and Run and hanged by his bigtoes :D

[Onkel Neal]

He probably didn't realize what an ambitious topic he had posted. I bet he's out helping the homeless right now, completely oblivious to all our pain and suffering. :O:

[eddie]

all that never happened because,,, either liberals couldn't get off the couch,, it was cold out,, their favorite tv program was on hhmmmm that's the same as couldn't get off the couch,,, or just plain yellow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHiJ07GodXA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbSNfbWbjCY

Stick that yubba, you and your ilk were spreading that BS all the time!:haha: BTW, I have a DD214 that says "Honorable" on it from the Corps so stick that too!

[GoldenRivet]

Look, the important thing to remember is that the United States of America has survived 44 of the bastards. Sure, we've impeached a couple, forced at least one or two to resign, shot and even murdered a few of them... but the bottom line is, there really is no reason the United States won't make it out of number 45

[yubba]

There's always a reason to why a person or persons vote for a special person or party.

To point finger at this/those person or persons and accuse this person or them to be racist or worse thing-is wrong.

By doing this you make the problem bigger.

Because the only thing that will happen is that this "silent crowd" will grow and one day they will put their vote on a person who will be a real dictatur or a second Hitler.

I have the last 24 hours seen people on FB saying that those who voted Trump got no common sense or worse thing.

Markus

we voted Trump to be president of a Constitutional Republic,,,and we expect he will be held to account something that couldn't be in done the last 8 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT6koTFHnH0

[yubba]

Stick that yubba, you and your ilk were spreading that BS all the time!:haha: BTW, I have a DD214 that says "Honorable" on it from the Corps so stick that too!

My ilk??? Matter of fact boot I also have a sheep's skin that has Honorable Discharge from The United States Marine Corps,on it,, I also worked for Military Sealift Command here In port Canaveral in the Tridant Basin,around Boomers, you do know your oath is to the Constitution,, and nothing else ,I thought I'd remind you of that.., so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.boot.

[mapuc]

I could have put a link to this article, but it's from a Swedish news paper or the news version from the main public tv-channel SVT.

The main headline:

Proposal: How to talk to your child about Trump

Now that Trump have been elected as the President of USA, it have made many children worried and here the grown-ups need to take a talk with their children about trump.

Markus

[Oberon]

but the bottom line is, there really is no reason the United States won't make it out of number 45

Honestly, I'm inclined to agree, and I'm even open to the idea of Trump surprising us all with a slightly softer line to the one he took in the campaign.
I'm just worried about how this is going to affect people in certain groups who will be victimised by other people, and, again since I feel that I need to state this, this also includes Trump supporters who are being attacked. No-one, and I repeat, No-one should be physically or mentally abused or discriminated against because of their gender, race, sexual preference, religious or political beliefs. Since I'm sure that I'll have to clarify it, yes, that includes people who want to keep a firearm, the only concern I would have on that is their ability to safely own and operate one, my signature basically describes how I feel on that...slight derail there but I just want to make sure that if someone picks me up on that I have already addressed it.

I think a lot of Trumps plans are going to hit the brick walls of reality soon, so what we'll see will no doubt be a lot of watered down promises...but that's nothing new from a politician...and Trump, like it or not...is now a politician. :03:

[Sailor Steve]

but this kind of opinion on citing anything then falls into being part of some infallible narrative - ie, thats a selective quote it doesnt matter -okay, so what only texts in full should be posted?
No. We'd rather not see quotes of entire articles here - links are better. The problem in this case is that the author of the article lied about what was said, and you repeated that lie. Fortunately the author did post a link to the entire interview. Selective quotes are fine, as long as they don't distort what was actually said. In this case it did.

No matter what one says, once we settle our minds on one perspective or another no amount of information to the contrary will change the side we have picked to be on it seems.
Yes it does.

I think rather than just dismissing every quote or worse, the very concept of quoting at all, out of hand, we should hear and respond always to the information presented.
Even when the information presented is distorted and designed to fill someone's agenda?

This is how a constructive discussion can be had, we work through the information that each side presents, and if something that one side presents is false, then the side saying it is false should give explanation as to why they believe it so - and by this i mean the content of what is said, not just running with the pre-formed view because so and so said it, it must by virtue of this be false..... claiming someone is biased is meaningless if what they are pointing out are the actual sentences uttered or statements written. The person may very well have their own political affiliation, but pretty much everyone does and anyone who claims they dont, well each side just accuses them of bias as soon as that "neutral" person says something that conflicts with a position that one side holds
All of this is true. On the other hand, beginning a discussions with accusations of how horrible the person in question is, is not discussion at all, but inflammation. Better to start off with reason than attacks.

claiming every time some information doesnt fit ones narrative that said information can be ignored because a biased person said it, really makes any kind of discussion impossible doesnt it?
Deliberately misquoting someone to fit one's agenda does so as well. As I pointed out before, that is exactly what the article in question does.

[agathosdaimon]

well what if the person is horrible? and his behaviour has made this pretty clear hasnt it?

and now look at what is coming in in day 1 of Trumps America

https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656

[Rockstar]

So I know this guy posting links from half a world away telling me that at my location the sky is falling. <Looks out window > Nope, its still there.

[Onkel Neal]

well what if the person is horrible? and his behaviour has made this pretty clear hasnt it?

and now look at what is coming in in day 1 of Trumps America

https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656

So, some kids have posted this on their FB and twitter, it must be true.

[Sailor Steve]

well what if the person is horrible? and his behaviour has made this pretty clear hasnt it?
As I pointed out before, we have had members here who spent the past eight years talking about how horrible Obama was, and how he was going to instill martial law and make himself Dictator. It could still happen, but I wouldn't bet on it. Now fear mongers from the left are predicting that Trump is going to destroy everything. I wouldn't bet on that either, no matter how much you want it to happen.

and now look at what is coming in in day 1 of Trumps America
What you don't seem to understand is that there are a great many of us, on the Left and the Right, who know what America really stands for, and who are willing to step up and fight against that sort of thing.

We've had bad presidents before, and have survived quite nicely. That said, we won't know how bad, or good, he really is until he's been in office for awhile. Some of those on the Left hated Bush long before he took us into Iraq, but that's the excuse they gave after the fact. Some of those on the Right hate Obama with a passion, yet overall he hasn't really done that badly. As I also pointed out earlier, the article this whole thread is based on lied about what Trump actually said. That some individuals reflect the worst in us is not necessarily his fault, and what they actually do, if anything, can be dealt with on an individual basis.

Until he actually takes office and his policies become clear, all of this crying and shouting does no one any good, and is in itself more hurtful than helpful.

[Aktungbby]

^either way he's already keeping his promise: "He's making 'Merica grate...again":up:

[Catfish]

Man i wasn't on the site for a day, what became of this tread ?!

I posted a link to an opinion piece which maybe (!) has a bit of truth in it, and i also said it is hard to swallow. Moore's chrystal ball prediction of Trump winning the election is much more biased. Why do you think i'd be so fond of it? I am not.
I do not want to answer each and every post, nut just to remember i did not write said article and i am not "Agathosdaimon" . Bilge rat's Realclearpolitics.com link is much better.


You know what I want to see happen right now? I want the moderators to issue a warrant for the arrest and an internet wide BOLO for one cunning and elusive character known as Catfish.. When found have him arrested for felony Hit and Run and hanged by his bigtoes :D
Yeah i bet you'd like that. Bolo and hanged for felony. Seems regarding sheer hate the article is not entirely wrong. :shifty:

[Onkel Neal]

Man i wasn't on the site for a day, what became of this tread ?!


Yeah i bet you'd like that. Bolo and hanged for felony. Seems regarding sheer hate the article is not entirely wrong. :shifty:

http://therapyideas.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/guilt.jpg

:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

[Oberon]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cw7KZlxVEAAkMt9.jpg

https://m.popkey.co/390fea/oGme8.gif

[August]

https://m.popkey.co/390fea/oGme8.gif

Wow a radio shock jock saying something provocative. It's well,... shocking! :o

[Eichhörnchen]

http://i.imgur.com/ZSKW9Vc.jpg

I'm already saving up my acorns for the next one... you can be Vice President, Catfish :)

[mapuc]

I don't know if this is the right thread to post this American-Presidential-election-history

Found this on FB.

"The president was considered to rough and crude to be a competent leader. Democrats incited riots in the cities, States run my Democrats threatened to secede even before he took office. 1860"

Sound interesting, does anyone of you have more about this historical event ?

Markus

[Oberon]

Wow a radio shock jock saying something provocative. It's well,... shocking! :o

Hypocritical was more the word I was looking for, but I guess shocking will do if you like.

[Onkel Neal]

How about shockingly hypocritical?

[Oberon]

How about shockingly hypocritical?

Well...I could meet in the middle with that. :yep:

[August]

I don't know if this is the right thread to post this American-Presidential-election-history

Found this on FB.

"The president was considered to rough and crude to be a competent leader. Democrats incited riots in the cities, States run my Democrats threatened to secede even before he took office. 1860"

Sound interesting, does anyone of you have more about this historical event ?

Markus

I remember reading about it in grade school back in the 1960's before history was crowded out by gender studies.

As I recall:
It got a lot worse before it got better.
It took a very long time to get better in Democrat controlled states, mainly their own fault.
Although nobody knew it at the time the status of minorities improved as a result of it.
And the President involved had weird hair. That was key... :yep:

[Torplexed]

And the President involved had weird hair. That was key... :yep:

And the vampire slaying...don't forget the vampires.

http://pyxis.homestead.com/abraham-lincoln-vampire-hunter-doodle.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

Well...I could meet in the middle with that. :yep:

I did see some video on the evening news of some "white power" students in some school, Pennsylvania I think, so there is some of that going on. :nope: Whether that exceeds the "black lives matter" mark, is debatable, but I don't think much of it. Bad taste. And why is the school so helpless to keep their students in check? Oh yeah, don't answer that, I know.:shifty: Our society keeps moving away from the norms of decency. And Trump's mouth is not helping.

[Sailor Steve]

States run my Democrats threatened to secede even before he took office. 1860"
Actually it was worse than that. Those same states threatened to secede in 1856 if John C. Fremont was elected. They threatened to secede in 1860 if Lincoln was elected. After he won, they did secede before he took office.

[agathosdaimon]

it is curious how much despicable things people think seem okay for trump to have said, but the one utterance of "deplorable" by clinton has sent them into paroxysms of rage.

Trump will be a despot, i actually feel pretty sure about this now given who he is surrounding himself with.

the real one to watch for will be Steve Bannon - i suppose he is like Goebbels or something, he is as much an anti-semite as he is homophobic, as he anti-immigrant. He is probably the most extreme person you could take on and if he gets hold of the USA's surveillance network, well that will be really horrific

as for people reporting on social media of what they are experiencing - at what point does it override your cognitive dissonance, how much has to happen before you begin to suspect something has gone pretty wrong.

The sky is not going to fall in right now, but it wont take long. Trump himself i think could be no better no worse then others like say GW Bush, but it depends now on who controls the functions of government and who feeds him information and now it will be people who will keep him in a bubble and willfully lie and distory truth. It sounds outrageous but i see nothing to stop a little futher along, Bannon and whatever other criminals he brings with him, start to fabricate stories to fire up rage at blacks, jews, minorities, intellectuals, secular minded people - take your pick. The pieces are all falling into to place if you care to watch the news, read up on people like Steve Bannon and see what the Trump loyalists are announcing.

We know, the whole world knows how thin skinned and vindictive Trump is, he doesnt hide this fact, he cant stand being made fun of or criticised by anyone no matter how big or small that persons platform is. Compare this with Obama who has had 8 years of people hating on him, parodying him, making MEMEs out of him. people putting out conspiracy theory films about him, etc etc etc and he has been a big enough person to not go after people for making fun of him. But Trump, well as mentioned he is like an Erdogan or the late Monarch of Thailand - there will be no criticism of him tolerated. Hopefully this is only restricted to the USA and he doesnt extend his pettiness to the whole world.

[Skybird]

And Trump's mouth is not helping.

Yes - his mouth. Whwther his mind ticks the same way, whether he really is that dumb a Trump as he posed as - to me that is something very different. Why did he got this far in the race because he was unerestimated all the time.

Me, I think not one moment that he is the stupid idiot many people paint him as. Opportunistic, unscrupulous, provoking, egocentric, and talking to the plebs in the language that the plebs understands (Clinton sucks at that) - all this: yes. But stupid?

He is not stupid. At best the people voting for him are stupid: those who took his talking for real. That is like taking all miracles and wonders in the Bible literally.

This does not mean that one should not be prepared for him adding quite a lot of changes. Since he is no career politician and is not anchored in the party system as well, he will do things from a very different and thus: unused perspective, last but not least that perspective will have HIM at the centre of its gravity. Possible that we will need time to get used to that, and that we will not like the consequencesespecailly in Europe, when he starts to cost us more money and own engagement.

But again: I really doubt that Trump is stupid.

By this I wish not to say that I suddenly like him. I don't. Its just that I take reality as what it is, and not as an idea about how I would prefer it to be, if only... The reality from January 20th on, is him. And nobody else.

And from late summer on we can start to assess what he actually is deciding and doing for real.

[agathosdaimon]

i saw this and i actually feel a little relieve and hope truly hope that he is kept in check and does right by all americans. Ultimately if Trump is going to be the US President then i want him to do well and by "do well" i mean do right by all americans regardless of who they voted for

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/12/donald-trump-appears-to-soften-stance-on-range-of-pledges


This is why although for me Trump is not a likeable person and quite appallingly his boasting of assaulting women and advocating war crimes and wanting to suddenly give up on doing anything about switching to cleaner energy, i dont think he wants to be a despot, but he will need to show some humility and empathy and above all not let the more extreme elements like Bannon, Palin, Guiliani etc pour poison in his ear.

Though as you say, Trump is not stupid, he is though also sly and flip flops alot on his position so will his softened stances be hardened up again once he is inaugurated? time will tell. If he is going to really buck the establishment, he better not let the more insidious parties out there who have been emboldened by his rhetoric get any further.

[Bilge_Rat]

He is not stupid. At best the people voting for him are stupid: those who took his talking for real. That is like taking all miracles and wonders in the Bible literally.

That is an offensive statement. I know a lot of people who support Trump, they are not stupid.

It does not mean we don't see his flaws, but Trump was not running against the perfect candidate, he was running against Clinton who only wanted to BE President, Trump actually wants to DO something.

Bottom line, you don't want a nice, decent person like Jimmy Carter as POTUS, you want a tough SOB like Reagan, Nixon or Trump who puts America's interests first.

[Skybird]

That is an offensive statement. I know a lot of people who support Trump, they are not stupid.
No, it is not offensive a statement I made.

It would have been if I just would have said "At best the people voting for him are stupid", and would have left it to that.

But actually I said: " At best the people voting for him are stupid: those who took his talking for real. That is like taking all miracles and wonders in the Bible literally." That specifies a certain subgroup of Trump voters: but these I indeed think are stupid indeed, for the mentioned reason.

Not all Trump voters are stupid - but a certain subgroup certainly is. That much that one should forbid them to vote. :)

[Cybermat47]

When white people attempt to use their political will to pull their country out of the trash heap, it's called racism. Notice liberals don't spend much time calling black people racist when they turn out in record numbers to elect the first "black" president? Or when Middle Eastern inhabitants denigrate Western culture? Or when Hispanics demand the US pull down its borders and dismantle its immigration laws in order to allow more Hispanics to enter? You think the Hispanics would be so motivated to allow millions of Frenchmen to enter the US? Never hear them make a peep about this.

Indeed. Often times those who are most opposed to racism fall into the trap of racism themselves.

[Oberon]

Our society keeps moving away from the norms of decency. And Trump's mouth is not helping.

Alas, that is true. I too have a healthy dose of skepticism when it comes to some of the facebook/twitter posts, but by rule of averages at least some of them are true. When I made the comparisons earlier between the US and UK after Brexit, I was speaking more of humanity in general and certain sections of it. If the AfD win the elections in Germany you'd see a similar thing, likewise if the Front Nationale win in France. It's like a validation for people of certain distasteful viewpoints, and they then feel free to express those viewpoints against people. It's not a judge of American character, it's something that's universal in most, if not all, cultures. It's also not everywhere, so if you're lucky you'll never witness it at all. I've yet to see it first hand, I have an Irish friend who got a bit of abuse post-Brexit, but by law of averages you know it's out there. Fortunately, as you've also said, there are people who will stand up against it, and eventually it will die down, but it's up to people in positions of authority and power to show the decent behaviour and tolerance that they want others to have. It doesn't always work, but you have to try.

[Oberon]

Indeed. Often times those who are most opposed to racism fall into the trap of racism themselves.

Extremism does breed extremism, sadly. Even I've fallen into that trap occasionally, it's easy to do but you have to try and break out of it.

[Onkel Neal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3BQGwESVbU

Dilbert creator Scott Adams analyzes the election and the massive levels of persuasion tactics employed by Trump. His success was no accident. :o

[Skybird]

There is a penetrant tendency and a strong social pressure to not violate the consensus of the "reasonable", the poltically correct, the wellmeaning, the do-gooders. I would call it, in reference to some typical German, Merkel-related characteristics in this country here, a tyranny of consensus.

If you always accept to play by the rules of this setting, the tenedd towards the jiddle of this mess intensifies, necessarily. You MUST violate it if you want to break it up; even more so when the established social factions already use quite a solid ammount of pressure and social violance themselves to defend their cozy nests. Play by their rules means guaranteeing that they must not change.

Sometimes you do not get further by playing by such rules, they spell your defeat if you want to change things, and soon you get mercilessly pulled back into the swamp of mediocrity and dilletantism, not to disturb the collectvie around you any longer, and not to stand apart from it. With consensus being enforced again, graveyard peace clouds the minds of people again and nobody asks questions anymore, since nobody has the skill anymore to ask. Sometimes you must swing the sledgehammer and accept to be the wild man, for surgical cleanliness will get you nowhere anymore. The estalbished lobbies and elites are full of cleanly surgeons and coensus-driven career junkeys. And look what a servile breed bare of any imgination and courage to put the rzuling orde rin questio n they are. That too is oine of th ereaosns why "populists" in past years are on a rise. Because more and more people have joined the Be-Pissed-party, for a growing number of different reasons.

Whether it is wise to assume that just one replaced president can fix all that, is another question. But the motivation why people even accept radical options now to enforce a drastic change - that motivation can be perfectly explained.

[Bilge_Rat]

Not all Trump voters are stupid - but a certain subgroup certainly is. That much that one should forbid them to vote. :)

Well you could say about any group of voters in any political party.

I am sure the same percentage of German voters are just as stupid. :ping:

[Skybird]

Well you could say about any group of voters in any political party.

I am sure the same percentage of German voters are just as stupid. :ping:

Oh yes. Its Merkel's third term currently - and there even could be a fourth one.

That I hold the very idea of letting every Peter and every Paul have a vote not exactly in high esteem, should be known by now. Also that this is not what the ancient Greek ideas of majority-decisions and democracy were about. What we practice today, the ancient Greek called ochlocracy - the tyranny of the plebs. And they counted it as one of the three base forms of tyranny.

My arguments against allowing this, are not much different than the arguments of politicians today that want to limit public referendums. Just that our motivations could not be any more different.

Churchill and Mark Twain also had some pointy comments about it, hadnt they. The appreciation for our ochlocracy-that-now-is-called-democracy, is relatively new and young in history. Not too long time ago, the idea was dispised. And the United States in my understanding and interpretation were founded as an aristocratic republic, not a democracy in the meaning the term gets abused for today.

Originally, democracy means a feudal system in which only a very small elite - in Greece: 1. free (non-enslaved) 2. rich 3. males) - was eligable to discuss and cast a vote in majority-decisions. These elitist groups were called: citizens. ;) Later, in European middle age, they turned into the socalled noblemen, or "the aristocracy".

I say again, like on various occasions before: what we do now, today, is a mix of oligarchy (the power of political parties, lobbies, business monopolists), and ochlocracy (the socialist redistribution and expropriation of the minority, as demanded by the plebs). The idea of letting every Peter and every Paul decide, in frequent intervals, on issues they have no clue of, is absurd. The idea of feudal democracy, is elitist, bears the risk of abuse and power monopoly, and thus is to be rejected as well.

And that is why I am against the concept of political states and supernational institutions - I am against that for very for principal reasons.

The freedom of the individual to share its voice in a decision making process of the community should only reach as far as the individual indeed can overwatch the total dimension of the coimunty system, and can be aware of all what goes on and how each thing and decisoonb affects evertyhgign else. This can only be relasied in communties of verys small, limited imensions,l we call it basic dmeiocracy today, I think. It sosmething for very very small communities only, else it canot work. The community sizes we have today: nations with millions and millions of people, are an insanity. Decentralization is of the essence.

[Onkel Neal]

That I hold the very idea of letting every Peter and every Paul have a vote not exactly in high esteem, should be known by now.


We certainly agree on that.:yep:

[Skybird]

Wicked British humour:

https://twitter.com/DanielAlpert/status/796818344531939330/photo/1

:D

:woot:

[mapuc]

Actually it was worse than that. Those same states threatened to secede in 1856 if John C. Fremont was elected. They threatened to secede in 1860 if Lincoln was elected. After he won, they did secede before he took office.

Thank you Steve. Now I have more knowledge to the "prologue to the American Civil War" or should a say a part of it.

And of course thank you August.

Markus

[mapuc]

It's not only on the street i USA people get beaten just because they have voted for Trump being mocked on social media.

Even here among Danish people there is a lot of hate between those that support Trump or not supporting.

Yesterday a Swedish celebrity chef was beaten by three young men-Reason-he looked like Trump.

There's also a lot of "conspiracy" stuff. Yesterday I read on a friends wall that he was convinced it have been vote fraud of some kind.

Markus

[em2nought]

There's also a lot of "conspiracy" stuff. Yesterday I read on a friends wall that he was convinced it have been vote fraud of some kind.

Markus

If there was any voter fraud it kept Hillary as close as she ended up, otherwise she'd have really been toast. :03:

[August]

If there was any voter fraud it kept Hillary as close as she ended up, otherwise she'd have really been toast. :03:

I read somewhere that fear of this being discovered is why the Clinton campaign is not demanding recounts in the close states.