Is the poppy a political symbol?

[Jimbuna]

As far as I'm concerned this further demonstrates how detached FIFA are from reality.

Football's governing body, Fifa, has turned down a request from England and Scotland for players to wear armbands featuring poppies on Armistice Day, the Scottish Football Association says. Does the design really breach a ban on "political" symbols, asks Stephen Fottrell.
The poppy is worn every November to commemorate members of the armed forces who gave their lives in war, and British sports teams have traditionally joined in by adding a poppy to their kit.
The English and Scottish football associations had hoped to get permission for their players to wear poppies on their shirts during their World Cup qualifier on Armistice Day (11 November).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37834224

[Platapus]

I guess the poppy is a political symbol when enough people choose to make it a political symbol.

It is not like there is some international definition of what is and ain't a political symbol.

If FIFA rules prohibit political, religious, or commercial messages on shirts and they equally and fairly enforce these rules, then I don't see a problem.

It is my understanding that some feel that there is undue social pressure to wear the poppies, which kinda defeats and perverts the whole idea. That sort of pressure elevates the poppy wearing into being a political symbol.

In the US, it is similar to being pressured to wear an American Flag pin.

But that aside, if that is what FIFA rules state, then they need to follow them. I seriously doubt that any team will win or lose a match dependent on if they are wearing or not wearing a specific patch on their uniforms.

[mapuc]

The American Olympic team was allowed to carry the Flag from 9/11 into the stadium at the opening ceremony

So why shouldn't football team from England and Scotland not be allowed to carry these armbands

It's only for 90+ minutes and only for this day 11th November.

Markus

[Platapus]

Not to sound snarky but one was the Olympics and the other is FIFA.

Also one was a flag and the other is a patch worn on the uniform.

Different dudes different rules.

[em2nought]

Who wants to go reminding everyone that stupid actions in some little backwater can quickly spin out of control? :D What a dumb lesson to try and learn. :o

[Oberon]

There does seem to be a bit of a danger of the poppy becoming some sort of religious symbol, such is the reverence put towards it. In small doses that's good, it's good to remember the sacrifices made...but it does no good to start using that symbol to create division, to cast aspersion or to rank people based upon their adherence to the dress-code and behavior surrounding Remembrance day.
It's like how hostile some people can be to the White Poppy movement, whose desires and goals are not that dissimilar to those of the Red Poppies, but that touches on the whole concept of the 'Just war' which is...difficult...

[Buddahaid]

White poppies? Red poppies? I'm poppy illiterate it seems. :o

[Oberon]

White poppies? Red poppies? I'm poppy illiterate it seems. :o

You don't hear much of the white poppy movement any more, but they've been around for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_poppy

[Buddahaid]

Oh good grief! I'm sorry I read that. What matters is that we DO remember, not in the details of how.

:salute:

[Oberon]

Oh good grief! I'm sorry I read that. What matters is that we DO remember, not in the details of how.

:salute:

True, but the question does always remain...do we sully their names if we do not seek to bring about peace and the end of warfare...or do we do it if we avoid fighting a just war? That question becomes especially complicated when you look at the origins of the poppy in the First World War which, unlike the second, was a war that happened because, as Blackadder put it, it was too much effort to not have a war. It's very hard to consider WWI as a 'just' war.

Either which way it probably does no good to overthink matters, but I do have my concerns about making the poppy some kind of hallowed symbol, and provoking outrage whenever it seems that the symbol has been slighted by someone. I think that undermines the point of it somewhat. :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

FIFA have already set their own precedent.

In 2011 they threatened to ban them in an England game against Spain, before eventually backing down and allowing them to be displayed on a black armband.

[Jimbuna]

Apparently FIFA have agreed on the Poppy being worn..................once the brown envelope with the million pounds in used notes has been left under the park bench.

[Oberon]

If there's precedence for it then I see no problem.

Back to what I was talking about earlier, this twitter exchange serves as a good example of the concern I have.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwKuulgWYAAI6OH.jpg

[Skybird]

No fan of FIFA, I am with them on this. Statutes are statutes, and in this case they are known since long. I see no reason to allow national exceptions from the rules, no matter the sympathy. I also fear the precedence effect.

Its a football match. Leave it to that: SPORTS. Its not about politics. Not about religion. Not about confession. Not about historical remembrance. Its sports, and sports should not be turned into being something different than that, because it isn't.

Its sports. Leave it alone.

P.S. Ah precedences. See what I mean?

[Catfish]

Sport seems to be an Ersatz-war, for some :shucks:

[STEED]

I have to agree with my Prime Minister when she said FIFA should get its own house in order.

Bloody stinking corrupt load of pigs.

[em2nought]

Its sports. Leave it alone.


It's smoke and mirrors to keep the masses catatonic no matter what shenanigans their gov'ts might get up to. :up: You must have fanboy blinders on this one subject. lol

[Eichhörnchen]

The very idea that the poppy is a political symbol is preposterous. Next topic...

[Skybird]

Can we have German coloured armbinders on unification day? Rainbow armbinders for gay activists? Why was it a scandal when the fRench team years ago delayed starting whistle because some of their players openly displayed Muslim prayers on thew grass? Beware climate, we need players having climate warming stickers on their shirts. Oh, and Muslim clothing code for women already was allowed to break the rules last world tournament, one or two teams played in i think Nikabs, although the dress code is plan and simple.

Its not only important what the written statutes say, else you can give them up completely. Its also about leaving the sport - a sport. Want to remember the world war? Attend an according meeting before you go to the match.

And what has remembering a world war to do with attending a football match supposed to make fun and give excitement...? It does not match. Not one bit. Why not having a techno party to remember storming the beach of Normandy?

[Catfish]

Don't mention the war.

[Oberon]

Don't mention the war.

https://media.giphy.com/media/d9xbNklug8fLy/giphy.gif

[Jimbuna]

England will wear poppies against Scotland at Wembley despite Fifa ban, the FA confirms.

In a statement released on Wednesday night, the FA make it clear that the governing body intends to pay "an appropriate tribute to those who made the ultimate sacrifice".

"The poppy is an important symbol of remebrance and we do not believe it represents a political, religious or commercial message, nor does it relate to any one historical event," FA said.

"In keeping with the position agreed with Fifa back in 2011 and in what we believe is in accordance with Law 4, para 4, the FA intend to pay appropriate tribute to those who have made the ultimate sacrifice by having the England team wear black armbands bearing poppies in our fixture on Armistice Day."

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/fifa-poppy-ban-england-scotland-fa-players-will-wear-remembrance-day-a7393591.html

~SALUTE~

[Moonlight]

The very idea that the poppy is a political symbol is preposterous. Next topic...
I disagree Mr Squirrel.

The poppy didn't start off as a political symbol but successive governments, the royal family, the media and the British establishment have turned it into one.
Whenever there's a conflict involving Britain, those knobheads above go spurring the masses on into a war frenzy of monumental proportions, (World War 1) culminating in the deaths of thousands of soldiers who have absolutely no idea why they were there and no idea why they were about to die.

When the war is eventually over, those same knobheads, safe in there beds far away from the bullets and shells, can go around back slapping each other while the rest of the country can begin to count up their dead. Every November those same knobheads remember 1 day out of 365 and not caring a toss if there broken war heroes are struggling financially, physically or mentally, but, the poppy tradition will carry on regardless, safe in the knowledge that the British establishment has got its back.

Its a political way of bringing the unwashed masses back into line, only a war can do this and governments will embrace one if they can get hold of one. You only have to go back to the Falklands to see this national fervour in action. Thatcher in the 80's was on her last legs as Prime Minister and she had no hope of saving herself or her government, that was until Argentina invaded those islands, and we all know how that ended, militarily and politically don't we......

So you see, there is a relationship between the poppy and politics, its just that people prefer not to see it.

[Oberon]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wwg_kWyNfnM/UspqNEl1Z4I/AAAAAAAAJwQ/0eYeeGA7c50/s1600/screen-capture.png

[Catfish]

@Moonlight: Imho an excellent post, thanks.

[Eichhörnchen]

He's got a point, hasn't he? :)

[Skybird]

England will wear poppies against Scotland at Wembley despite Fifa ban, the FA confirms.



http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/fifa-poppy-ban-england-scotland-fa-players-will-wear-remembrance-day-a7393591.html

~SALUTE~
Okay, lets log that match then as a defeat for both teams, and thus 0 points for both teams. And of course, no goals recognised. And done we are.

[Oberon]

Okay, lets log that match then as a defeat for both teams, and thus 0 points for both teams. And of course, no goals recognised. And done we are.

Well, we could start it off as a stalemate, then have the opposition gain an advantage towards the end but then lose steam, then bring on the American team to end the game? :hmmm: Then hold a rematch in about twenty-five years?

[Aktungbby]

The American Olympic team was allowed to carry the Flag from 9/11 into the stadium at the opening ceremony

So why shouldn't football team from England and Scotland not be allowed to carry these armbands

It's only for 90+ minutes and only for this day 11th November.

Markus
Wear the poppy! And 'take a Knee' in protest for anything....political!:hmmm: http://www.ajc.com/rf/image_lowres/Pub/p7/AJC/2016/09/02/Images/photos.medleyphoto.11208285.JPG

[STEED]

England will wear poppies against Scotland at Wembley despite Fifa ban, the FA confirms.



http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/fifa-poppy-ban-england-scotland-fa-players-will-wear-remembrance-day-a7393591.html

~SALUTE~

That's sticking it to that corrupt FIFA. :up:

[HunterICX]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
FIFA is corrupt, anti-fair game and anything but for the sport.
Not to mention how political influenced they are, just look where the next Cups are being held. :roll:

@Jamie: I see what you did there :rotfl2:

[Catfish]

The FIFA is as corrupt as its members, and clubs.


Maybe we could introduce trenches on the playing field, just for remembrance.

And why only poppies and WW1, why not go back to the jolly good old colonial times, with slaves doing the playing. Why not "We shall remember all of them" ?
I am sure we can have some remembrance day every day a year, for what mankind has done to itself during the millenia. This verbal exchange is exactly why the poppies have become a politically abused object.

Anyone read Moonlight's post further north..

[Skybird]

Question: what has FIFA's corruption to do with the issue this thread is about?

Answer: nothing.

If FIFA's corruption angers you, then leave the association. That is what I indeed would prefer for football nations to do, to render FIFA meaningless by leaving it behind (will not happen, money, fat cats and all that, I know I know). But as long as you stay in, the statues are valid for you. That some break the rules, does not mean that now it is legal to break the rules for everybody else.

[Jimbuna]

Well, seeing as how I started the thread, this is my final take on the subject.

For me, the poppy is not a political symbol but more a way of remembering and honouring those who made the ultimate sacrifice/paid the ultimate price.

That others choose to politicise it, that is up to them but I certainly don't agree with that viewpoint.

[Catfish]

[...] For me, the poppy is not a political symbol but more a way of remembering and honouring those who made the ultimate sacrifice/paid the ultimate price. [...]

Understood.

Just for your consideration:
If you mourn the dead, but do not mention those who let them die for their own reasons or nothing, you let them get out unpunished.

We still have not really worked up why this all went so wrong, it seems saying Germany was guilty for all was enough, at the time. No one of the "old sobs" responsible for the war(s) Moonlight mentioned, has been punished, or court-martialed.
Instead we only mourn the dead ? This is NOT enough.