Magnetic Anomaly Detection - IJN ASW

[Wizz]

Hi all!

Long time lurker who posts rarely (be gentle). I wanted to start this after doing some due diligence regarding my searches for an existing thread - I have to say 10 good minutes of searching convinced me of the justification for a dedicated MAD IJN ASW thread (please feel free to correct me if required). So, with those disclaimers out of the way...

I've read something quite fascinating!

Having recently received and perused David Owen's 'Ant-Submarine Warfare: An Illustrated History' (Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, 1997) (highly recommended though a definite bias towards the more technical Atlantic theatre) I found a curious entry regarding the IJN's ASW Magnetic Anomaly Detection (MAD) capability I was hoping my learned colleagues here would be able to provide more information regarding both the simulated (stock, TMO, FOTR etc) and real world aspects of this capability.

An excerpt from page 188-189:

[START]
'On 14 November [1944], USS Halibut was subjected to an even more frightening experience, not least because of its unusual nature. Part of a wolf pack operating against Japanese convoys, the boat was at periscope depth when, just after launching torpedoes against a freighter, the crew heard a loud, high-pitched buzzing sound noise circling around them four times before a heavy explosion close on their port side. There was none of the usual noises of depth charges dropping prior to the explosion, and the submarine dived to more than 400 feet, accompanied by the noise of more explosions and considerable internal damage. The skipper reported a strange and inexplicable greenish glow in the control room, which accorded with descriptions from other submarine commanders, but no one could account for what this could have been.

Finally, Halibut was able to surface and make her way back to base, to find similar damage to the pressure hull, which led to this boat also being declared a total loss. Only when the skipper in one of the other boats made his report did it reveal what had attacked them. Large flying boats had been seen through the periscope circling backwards and forwards over Halibut's position, and it was clear that they had been using Jikitanchiki, [Wizz: 磁気探知機 - literally magnetic atmosphere look and find mechanism] the Japanese MAD system that, in this case at least, made possible and accurate and crippling attack.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-35S4ucBAmSI/TgMmgGA877I/AAAAAAAACcs/k0aSB0qWub4/s1600/KMX.jpg


This was one of the few areas where Japan had developed new technology well up to allied standards. It was a semi-automated system in which the pilot of the controlling aircraft was alerted by a lamp lighting up on the instrument panel, and a slick of aluminium powder was dropped into the sea as a preliminary marker. The pilot maintained his course until the aircraft passed out of the zone of magnetic disturbance, whereupon another slick was dropped automatically. He then had to turn and fly a course at right angles to the line joining the first two slicks and crossing it halfway between them. Once again the apparatus would release markers automatically as the aircraft flew in and out of the zone of magnetic disturbance, and an attack could be delivered on the basis that the submarine was in the centre of the pattern formed by the first, second and fourth slicks, but aimed according to a table that took into account how long the dropping of the markers had taken. Then the aircraft could attack with its own bombs or depth charges, or direct surface escorts to the markers showing the target's position, as was believed to be the case with Halibut.


https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/img/plate_48-2.jpg


So sensitive was the equipment eventually made, that boats could be located down to 400 feet below the surface and even, with a skilled pilot flying forty feet above the sea, down to a depth of 800 feet, well below the crush depth of US submarines. This formidable weapon might have achieved much more, but by the time of its introduction, aircraft and aircrew capable of operating it were in such short supply that it made little difference'.
[FINISH]

Additional information from www.subsowespac.org
http://www.subsowespac.org/the-patrol-zone/japanese-airborne-magnetic-detector.shtml

USS Halibut post IJN MAD attack damage report
http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/WarDamageReports/SummWarDamageSub7DEC41-12AUG45/SummWarDamageSub7DEC41-12AUG45.html

Generic MAD information from YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNWUZEwwFC4


I'm curious as to how this is modelled in the game (TMO, FOTR, other etc - I note it's always mentioned by hard working modders) and any personal anecdotes of players encountering this. I sincerely found this interesting noting the otherwise lacklustre (comparatively) ASW campaign wrought by the IJN, and couldn't think of a better community to share this with. :salute:

Happy hunting to all :subsim:

[Gray Lensman]

<snip>

So sensitive was the equipment eventually made, that boats could be located down to 400 feet below the surface and even, with a skilled pilot flying forty feet above the sea, down to a depth of 800 feet, well below the crush depth of US submarines. This formidable weapon might have achieved much more, but by the time of its introduction, aircraft and aircrew capable of operating it were in such short supply that it made little difference'.

<snip>

I'm curious as to how this is modelled in the game (TMO, FOTR, other etc - I note it's always mentioned by hard working modders) and any personal anecdotes of players encountering this. I sincerely found this interesting noting the otherwise lacklustre (comparatively) ASW campaign wrought by the IJN, and couldn't think of a better community to share this with. :salute:

Happy hunting to all :subsim:

Very Interesting Read. Thanks for sharing.

My thoughts though:

If this was implemented in a game mod (for instance (FOTRSU), I would think to keep things somewhat historically accurate in the regular campaign game that it is maybe only implemented near the home islands of Japan after the start of 1945 or so with just a small few specially designated hunter-killer operating coordinating with air search in possession of the capability, otherwise you're fighting a fantasy game as your post stated.

I'm also not sure that Air Search can be coordinated with naval Hunter-Killer groups in game. In situations I've encountered with Air search spotting me in the vicinity of any naval (IJN or merchant), it seems as if the naval ships don't pay any attention to what's going on with their own friendly air search unit. I mean I don't see merchants changing course or anything unless they themselves observe me. Same goes for IJN combat units. This could be a programming oversight or my own poor observation as generally I don't stick around on the surface to observe things to closely preferring to go deep and go off at a tangent. Only thing that I've directly observed is after coming back up (5/10 minutes later), a merchant ship has not changed course or speed and escorts are doing their own thing instead of heading for the spot I was at when the air search plane noticed me.

"This formidable weapon might have achieved much more, but by the time of its introduction, aircraft and aircrew capable of operating it were in such short supply that it made little difference".Now it might be really cool to have it as a stand alone add-on MOD that could be specifically implemented by the gamer himself just to give himself some extra challenge in the game at an earlier point of the war. Not sure it that's possible however. Someone like Rockin Robbins and his FOTRSU helpers might be able to say.

This will be an interesting thread though if some modders could come forward with what is indeed possible to accomplish.

[Rockin Robbins]

This makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately there are no magnetic fields associated with submarines in the game. The question is why this information is not general knowledge, and I think I know the answer.

In 1972 I worked with my father, who had worked on ASW projects until about 1970. One day he dropped a bombshell on me (undoubtedly violating his top secret clearance) that we knew the position of every submarine on earth from magnetic detection equipment in spy satellites.

If so, that would be a very good reason for the US government not to talk about any Japanese achievements in the same direction. If people are not even thinking in that direction they won't develop countermeasures for something they can't even imagine.

Amazing find! It will be interesting to see if modders can do something with it. I hope they keep its use VERY limited, as it would change everything about how you have to play the game.

[Gray Lensman]

<snip>

In 1972 I worked with my father, who had worked on ASW projects until about 1970. One day he dropped a bombshell on me (undoubtedly violating his top secret clearance) that we knew the position of every submarine on earth from magnetic detection equipment in spy satellites.

If so, that would be a very good reason for the US government not to talk about any Japanese achievements in the same direction. If people are not even thinking in that direction they won't develop countermeasures for something they can't even imagine.

<snip>



Damn, I just can't resist this... Wait for it...

I wonder if "Glockmeister" knows anything about this? :D

[propbeanie]

You'd be having to paint your boat with more than just a coat of sound absorbing flat-black, that's fer shure...

Cool find Wizz. Here, I thought Duci's airplanes were bad getting me at 125 once... Maybe he had top-secret clearance, and we didn't know it, and he was already simulating that... And AOTD_MadMax went for "super-eared" ASW Hunter / Killer groups, put the two together in a moving "spawn" area and you'd have a mod...

So, what's the significance of the aluminum decaying in the salt water for magnetism?... any scientists out there? I wonder what the life expectancy of the equipment operators was? What sort of "rays" did the thing emit that they had to leave off armor?

[Rockin Robbins]

Actually, in the reports of all subs damaged during the war I read that one of the subs was lost and they believed that not degaussing the sub contributed to its being found and killed by mines. It was stated that it was detected by the mines up to five times stronger than a properly degaussed submarine.

Reading between the lines..... degaussing would be a way to defeat the MAD system, and I'll bet it was used. After all, one third of Japanese coastal planes were fitted with MAD and they got one kill in the war. Doesn't seem a really effective system.

Sounds just like the Type XXI U-boat myth. It would have won the war for the Germans had it been deployed a year earlier you know. Never mind the fact that its reliability was never established and hydraulic systems were completely inadequate. Never mind that there weren't crews to man the things, or opportunity to train them to use the new equipment. Never mind that the same reason Type IXs and Type Viis were unsuccessful, inability to carry enough torpedoes to make a scratch in 1000 ship convoys, operating in an ocean without any friendly aircraft or ships, meaning that jeep carrier hunter-killer groups had unlimited time and range to kill U-boats.

Never mind that the snorkel was the finest radar target known to man. The sub was unable to detect attacking aircraft, but it was lit up like the fourth of July on ASW aircraft radars. The Type XXI was a waste of resources, unable to make any difference in the war. The day of the diesel-electric submarine in the Atlantic was as over as the day of the battleship.

I can't imagine why people are so wistful about the Type XXI anyway. Cheering for the Germans and wishing they would have won the war with a mythical supersub is kind of sick if you think about it. The American Guppy IIs and IIIs were superior in every way to the Type XXI, and they were solid, reliable boats too.

Still, an amazing find about a program I'd never heard of. In the States, it was popular to represent the Japanese as primitive people, resembling monkeys and having the brains of a goose. Nothing could be further from the truth. They were and are a brilliant people with drive, imagination, organization and sacrifice. Those who fought them learned not to underestimate their abilities.

[Rockin Robbins]

Wiz, after further research it seems that possibly the report you quoted is a bit more colorful than the truth. I have to do some processing of the war report of USS Halibut to post extractions of their war report. For instance, no weird glow was reported by anyone.

Material from which I will be extracting can be found at https://issuu.com/hnsa/docs/ss-232_halibut

[Rosomaha]

:ping: It is curious, but there are traces of Ubisoft planning at a certain stage of works something like this in the game (SensorMAD).

But then, unfortunately, probably they refused to further full implementation and completion of the work (as with some other mechanisms: IceCreamMachine, SensorDF ...).
it remained in the form of like an "appendix".

exe file:

https://s9.postimg.org/466ythf6n/002.png (https://postimg.org/image/g82cnmoez/)

as well as unused icon subsystem:

https://s12.postimg.org/plphmp4wt/001.png (https://postimg.org/image/iv90d9hqx/)

[Wizz]

Wiz, after further research it seems that possibly the report you quoted is a bit more colorful than the truth. I have to do some processing of the war report of USS Halibut to post extractions of their war report. For instance, no weird glow was reported by anyone.

Material from which I will be extracting can be found at https://issuu.com/hnsa/docs/ss-232_halibut

Hi R' Robbins - thanks for the reply and kind words (and to others - I always grit my teeth on forums but people here are so genuinely nice. It really is refreshing!). It was precisely the green glow that interested me (plus an indication of the miraculous depths it could detect a submarine - potentially 800 feet!?). It's interesting to see that that glow was perhaps lost in translation, misattributed, or even (worst case) mendaciously added some where at some stage for some reason!

I thought this capability was interesting, but also note Ducimus included it in TMO (TMO 2.5 manual page 9). I'm not sure how though.

I can't imagine any detailed simulation of the Japanese MAD capability would be reasonably possible in SH4, and also have to question it's detailed implementation noting how little (apparently) it was effectively used, though it would be interesting to learn more about it's simulated potential (noting your comments about the absence of magnetic properties within SH4). Still... :ping:

Righto, I'm off to Truk again with some slightly nuclear MK-14s!

[Rockin Robbins]

Wouldn't it be great if it were done right with the aluminum dust and right angle passes by the plane too? But how would you simulate a degaussed or magnetized submarine? Or the act of degaussing. Was it performed between cruises in drydock? Or did it need more specialized location and facilities? I don't know the answers to any of these questions.

Isn't it amazing how "primitive" our greatest diesel/electric submarine simulation on Earth reveals itself when scrutinized very closely.

In FOTRS Ultimate, we are presently infested with dozens of Japanese submarine hunter/killer groups. They have Superman on every DD (don't ask how they duplicated Superman for every escort) with x-ray vision to find your sub and kill you just about guaranteed. Surviving a cruise is the exception rather than the rule right now. We'll be changing that but we could just say it's MAD and leave 'em there!

Nobody would play the mod, but we'd proudly claim to have implemented MAD!:har::har::har: The amputated hunter-killer groups (we'll leave one or two around Japan just to spice up the mod) will be available as a plug-in mod for those who are feeling depressed and suicidal.

[propbeanie]

... In FOTRS Ultimate, we are presently infested with dozens of Japanese submarine hunter/killer groups. They have Superman on every DD (don't ask how they duplicated Superman for every escort) with x-ray vision to find your sub and kill you just about guaranteed. Surviving a cruise is the exception rather than the rule right now. We'll be changing that but we could just say it's MAD and leave 'em there!

Nobody would play the mod, but we'd proudly claim to have implemented MAD!:har::har::har: The amputated hunter-killer groups (we'll leave one or two around Japan just to spice up the mod) will be available as a plug-in mod for those who are feeling depressed and suicidal.

Well, we're also infested with Maru vessels, and cdrsubron7 also found an incident where it was cruisers... Yikes! "Bring out your dead" klang "Bring out your dead" klang. Say, I just found the source of "The Sound"... sorry for the interruption, we know return you to MAD...

[Wizz]

Nobody would play the mod, but we'd proudly claim to have implemented MAD!:har::har::har: The amputated hunter-killer groups (we'll leave one or two around Japan just to spice up the mod) will be available as a plug-in mod for those who are feeling depressed and suicidal.

But only if you could also create an SH4-esque campaign video short showing an oppressed Japanese subordinate submarine admiral bowing deeply (though without ultimate result) to an indifferent Imperial Army Minister asking for wide scale production of this MAD capability! :har::har::har:

Because we know it works - but know they won't listen to the IJN's complaints! :wah:

Good for us though :arrgh!:

[Rockin Robbins]

I've always been MAD, I know I've been MAD, like the most of us are. It's very hard to explain why you're MAD, even if you're not MAD...

Darn I am old http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/smileys/splat.gif

[propbeanie]

Ahhhh, but MAD is ~older~!

[Gray Lensman]

probeanie:

I don't have a sound suggestion per se, but It sounds like (no pun intended), you might be someone to answer a question for me...

I'm tooling along following contacts using the sonar screen to isolate the direction for which they might be. (In fact quite often, the range at which I hear distant screws is further than my radar displaying a Pip on the 40,000 scale, not sure if that's WW2 historical or not, but I make use of the fact in the game (using TMO))

Anyhow, every so often, I'll save the game, (always no contacts), come back next day, start her up... Tool around some more, a few hours later, I'll happen upon a new contact that I can't hear on the sonar... What gives? Is that a bug? (Now I'm not talking about quiet "junks" here, I'm talking a regular ship like a merchant)

[propbeanie]

See the PM I sent you Gray Lensman. Caution though... they're liable to limit how many messages you can keep in your Inbox now... it's a long boring tirade... :lol:

You could be running into one or more things. The games "Save" system seems to be lacking in "detail". I've seen magnificent explosions "live" in the game, that when I go back and watch them on the replay, they're puny. Then, the audio engine doesn't always fully restore from when you use TC, especially some of the sound effects and voices that are "wave" audio. Also, most of the ships don't make a "sound" below certain speeds... that is a "sensor" issue in the config files. Also, there is a certain "probability" in the game that your sonar dude is gonna mess up and have to be fired... Then there's the situation where after import mods, then de-activating mods, that all things may not be valid in your install.. Hopefully, you don't have to deal with user error, like I do... tic

This is the very short version...

[Rockin Robbins]

All right, here you go, from microfilm of the actual typewritten cruise report, USS Halibut covering November 14, 1944. These are all from https://issuu.com/hnsa/docs/ss-232_halibut and page numbers are written by hand on each page:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/utr5T_Il5qHiIB1T2qnokZHRiaTsbnwTwdRCTe3GSaovxvtkWl C6nX6d8B2YwN_qAzfDE4ECJZF3GZYRQdEhMnH9aQpLTFprT2Rx L1wqhpFUVcfoVkkazXrg4GqG76d5WGIK55oSsov4Lkh6a1r4Zo kRZrSfKvCrYAVVpsFwpBz1e4s53lYcF27VNg9MncPshX-7xu9vGvFCDM237hva-I71YRCFDdBEBLZQ2EqoU2u8ZEebqjX1NrX8DyJ5N810OcG-b8fBSAo5f3noM2vtqs19bzEUVt38oiZ4Fv9zpUauJyQNZlWFs3 2mOa03zy6zxTFOGkirsSW_pe-p5v46O-LH2BzH-k-S2ceGhhzUMGOBrKE3lyjd_AwJ4IFtFqcIPlUJed5cXgElSNsJB RM3uaWPEfp2VI3uxpHhdzFAqGZFW83WMxqNy4L86pqJVcXH8VV frTQAH8FA2iqU6U2MVIpmhNFHMaBpQKAOnvTdUeJFjz-yUXbMlMpRxAc-YJJa2fP6kMrRtaQF36uicWXrcOS2ba1eFFP5HY7ykdlRXf57IH MCunAi4ouH2dK86LTqCljFp0uaABOHxcd0yk_QTM4KxyKiq3I4 5O8KmyfwTOERUuR8Bw=w505-h664-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RIN7Lsv_Gkn_5J9LBbjfambIedcp97gDUs3IZqnCOxlCttxsB_ KEF8gkA23c-t3uCiyZ3SHVodkH1kACjzbgqZ5oDWtWE1vnPw6_Hhuz0FnXC0J Ouuhm8up0DTBLsQ7oORKLQRjL8fdcUeqYe7e6qN2ssO9EvHgKt _VYYZHtnuXMgCeYc9dDPc6s2NMRUmrIX6b3krGjQDvvu1wDhEA NjuedmzfENNz2NlXOTIt9efOkXLTUWS4e9sq0rLIUYOx3OePfC gTwawt7nj2GPMEsKQ8wTyfamLtNHje0NGEzg3FO7tMblWzqQQ5 57rcAKspZWKJ63WSVlsEHp-jR9X_PeWzI0qtzuir1bZeA0SRp_IsrY92jhW_Tu2Qq0q-irB2guE_iJfMYLikUPEqbJiCW-q77fmLMUVQ1TuILKMJk3qN1dkzvqe2vdOTJILZLfwW8CSBgHhA Y-yYNFQYBVi-NN_aeV0Swqx2t-2ksF9GxHGvSinhN3-G3MAEwxjxcHKuVGvoPcURoK007ZbJaJG7Rgt-HusLWGH2MtYQLPd20gRw4FQSNmzjJNXpaB8evAEFLoDGuct2Xu I95ibGHxYkFxf83DtKtaj0c9E0CThBrk2Lpn4vTzw=w539-h664-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p33T49trbHNgyh2RQc5ZTRFSp-maHxkJ5fOl6yY0z4iumZ3gWuGrYYPiwyup23HQgBvWeUIjNqCC 8EfU22wnxpn-Z-oS8IlUahHGsq8ZTQfptV2p1RzFhy-MvDqJQ__TdVPsGQqJ9oEENTRHxb0Y-jFyCR4_RiEGyd1lRWktYus8O8GMpSg6t3UVqEVSjubx_bb1bo9 CmZKdsuu7ktbrVDBYYoxbS5st_a0hmn2mII_F7n90U_juoNC8H l3ed5sw67c-wZVciPUWttUclcONqRe3R71dW9r_iH3HFJkqo_xrTcHSNywxX0 Xrvu23jldNdDejt-XuRwmvV_4ijBJOO7Iycx5rgTvisYTyIrFxRbIGb6gcDWQXS5hA wXTjbOgY2lq6BTSPa-ylgO2d9EpDFchW4OIUCzAKStu-0JPD8HOZ2f3SjVDpwPDnRtVZkkzknH8KXQNqZ3pOgGO9bAhV8q HWBsamcNnJ_g9pegmtkLZVphtdqoJg1A1IBEcwy4-cax4twAsHssRy5EXlQC1B6pbp8hDlVnCLO6jHVcRxDUB5zM9ZG m8OyZmE1G_Zx2XzqTOl90p3g3oE1eV08hC5hzsNgYe-OwrOO2sZH2DR3ifFwBi8_Q=w546-h664-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/06tO0sM6aFbhcZCYHU2YStnJZEhg7ogI7m_gjfdm8T7E-Zt4lNaCbby8yVkoFcqyFpGEzB3EcBLIhaMGZZ0hPb-qdmqwMDXgIzHOKOXol9ruW4WFaM22gbHY1WEK0mDhF32bgSTVs D73HnraWFd2-1BbWP1QjXOVv0aJ704qOoKbhSePhCtSrmU8gMtT60VZH4utP-MOYo6a9_R-quGdV2n1UTKYHS4wR_F4vqc1BIwC5QKm9WUvUpB2gATbG7VDz_ TyDEj5Z-rKej-PiGZLsCJ_ayu0FMyGsuVtrFRbScsdZoL3t93VEo9BKTFCfh-x38dryv5s74ylbUX3_KJKkd-26pOL6rl-Vn2XE9PkqlLGbr6trzFKXLv_FalZy8vTYdVltj8Z3qrw8YjZwR 6qwWjdacREHKAzA45fz6F0nXN5JkVt2yE6etTvusNQBzthh6ay kcnZeiF_ejABM3vhj-WADtSj3lem9A_0A4d3CI6QY4jj8Ub3N0mZa-JLtfHxpHoQN5ML_EQ5Rj3LBcuWBwXsZAI3UUhIlbcCL1FjBRPI AK_irnAdTC8s1CwU7esbjV2j5DjVVg22P6mK8H3hwjGElJC2Dh Q_PsQ7JqGdVvvNZWGUlg=w397-h664-no

The bottom page was from the cruise assessment written by "The Commander Sub Squadron FOUR, WV O'Regan.

Pretty pedestrian compared to the fanciful account in the other book.

[Sniper297]

I was an aviation ASW tech in the 70s, what we used then was smoke floats. ("MADMAN, MADMAN, smoke away" was the call when you got a wiggle on the trace, the button push simultaneously launched smoke and burned a circle on the automatic plotter) My guess is the aluminum slick was just what they came up with as a marker, a dye marker would have worked just as well. As for the satellites I never heard that, and would tend to doubt it - the disturbance in the magnetic field wouldn't be big enough to be detected from 10,000 feet, let alone outer space. And the claim that we knew where every soviet sub was all the time is patently ridiculous - even if you're tracking all the KNOWN subs, how would you know if there were unknowns or not?

Obviously we had choke points like the Greenland-Iceland-United Kingdom gaps covered with SOSUS buoys, so if one of those picked up noise some P-3 Orions would be sent to investigate - at low altitude.

I was in a helicopter ASW squadron, more limited range than a P-3 so used mainly to confirm suspected contacts. With the ability to hover we could use the dip sonar to locate a MAD contact precisely.

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/1798536_689195187791431_918332513_n.jpg?oh=9073e5f f1a2aa186c7a16bbac1552545&oe=586DB6DF

Sikorsky SH-3 Sea King retracting the dip sonar.

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/1779849_697095817001368_883056071_n.jpg?oh=e8dbee5 e7e20e60b2083ab753f08dba5&oe=5868A0ED

Red and yellow thing on the far left is the MAD antenna, my buddy in the pic has his hand on a Mark 46 acoustic homing torpedo.

[kevinsue]

Geo survey and mining exploration companies in Australia used magnetic anomaly detection equipment installed in GA aircraft such as the Aero
Commander in the photo. It allowed a much more efficient and cost effective alternative to conducting conventional ground surveys.

http://i64.tinypic.com/npkg90.jpg

[Armistead]

I'm pretty sure it's included in TMO and even recall some radar item sticking out in front of the plane that carried it, although no clue how it worked in game.