Woman killed in simulation exercise at Florida police academy

[Platapus]

Unfortunately, her death was not a simulation

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/08/10/woman-killed-in-simulation-exercise-at-florida-police-academy.html


A 73-year-old Florida woman taking part in a citizen police academy was shot multiple times with a revolver and killed by a police officer during a "shoot/don't shoot" role-playing exercise Tuesday, authorities said.


Mary Knowlton volunteered for the demonstration and was assigned the role of "victim," according to a Charlotte Sun (http://www.news-press.com/story/news/crime/2016/08/09/incident-punta-gorda-police-department/88500140/) photographer who covered the event. The officer who shot her was playing the "bad guy," though it's unclear why the officer's gun contained live rounds or how and where Knowlton was shot.


"We were unaware that any live ammunition was available to the officer at the time,"said Punta Gorda police Chief Tom Lewis, who also confirmed the weapon used was known to be an "actual firearm."


Lewis called the shooting an accident and said the scenario occurred during an exercise in which authorities use simulated lethal force in a live scenario, according to WBBH-TV (http://www.nbc-2.com/story/32723512/incident-reported-at-punta-gorda-citizen-police-academy). He said a number of department personnel were present during the demo, including Lewis.
"It's just a horrific time for all of us," Lewis said during a Wednesday afternoon news conference.


Knowlton, a mom, wife and career librarian, was originally from Minnesota but moved to Punta Gorda recently with her husband, The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/10/woman-fatally-shot-in-accident-during-fla-citizen-police-academy-lethal-force-simulation/) reported.


She was taken to Lee Memorial Hospital and later pronounced dead.
"I am devastated for everyone involved in this unimaginable event. If you pray, please pray for Mary's family, and for the officers who were involved. Everyone involved in this accident is in a state of overwhelming shock and grief," Lewis said.


The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is investigating the incident and the officer involved in the shooting has been placed on leave. The officer was not identified.


A demonstration with live ammunition? Why were they even using real weapons. Florida has not learned of training weapons?


I hope this officer will soon be an ex-officer. Anyone that negligent has no reason to be entrusted with carrying a weapon.



Protip: When asked to participate in a police exercise, politely decline. :yep:


Perhaps the story will change and the officer felt threatened by the 73 year old lady. :nope:

[Oberon]

Damn, that is unfortunate, and I hope there is a major investigation and a clean up in procedure there. I recall a while ago there was an incident in France where 17 people were injured after a soldier from the 3rd Marine Infantry Parachute Regiment opened fire during a demonstration of hostage-freeing techniques at a barracks in Carcassonne and his magazine contained live rounds instead of blanks. :dead:

[Cybermat47]

How the hell did that even happen?!

[MaDef]

How the hell did that even happen?!

The person with the weapon was not paying attention to detail.

[Jeff-Groves]

There was a time I care about LEO's
If they do not fry this arse?
I'll no longer morn the shooting of one of them.
Time to end the Boys in Blue thing they stand behind to often.

[Aktungbby]

Protip: When asked to participate in a police exercise, politely decline. :yep:


Perhaps the story will change and the officer felt threatened by the 73 year old lady. :nope:
Of late, living in Amerika is a police exercise:O: and you can't decline...cause 'Merika is declining!:hmmm:

[vienna]

Commie!!!...




<O>

[em2nought]

I feel sad about this one since she wasn't actually a criminal.

[nikimcbee]

Of late, living in Amerika is a police exercise:O: and you can't decline...cause 'Merika is declining!:hmmm:


whatevah....
https://media.giphy.com/media/qxYBGo398MgBG/giphy.gif

[fireftr18]

Every time I participated in a police simulation exercise, those in charge checked every real firearm to make sure the magazine was OUT and there was not a round in the chamber.

[August]

There was a time I care about LEO's
If they do not fry this arse?
I'll no longer morn the shooting of one of them.
Time to end the Boys in Blue thing they stand behind to often.

So you being a civilian and some civilians being murderers means we shouldn't mourn you either?

LEO is a difficult and stressful job that is performed skillfully and compassionately by the great majority of those who wear the badge. To hold them all responsible for the actions of a few bad apples is unfair and discourages the very ones you (ought to) want to keep.

[Nippelspanner]

How the hell did that even happen?!
I'm just as amazed about this as you are, unbelievable.


There was a time I care about LEO's
If they do not fry this arse?
I'll no longer morn the shooting of one of them.
Time to end the Boys in Blue thing they stand behind to often.
So, any slain cop in the future won't get any sympathy because someone who had nothing to do with him screwed up?

Solid logic right there!
How about you take a short cut and just hate every human being on the planet because... you know, they're the same species as bad cops as well.

:roll:

Edit:
So you being a civilian and some civilians being murderers means we shouldn't mourn you either?

LEO is a difficult and stressful job that is performed skillfully and compassionately by the great majority of those who wear the badge. To hold them all responsible for the actions of a few bad apples is unfair and discourages the very ones you (ought to) want to keep.
Well said, I agree.

[Jimbuna]

Absolutely tragic, hopefully a thorough investigation will come up with protocols that prevents this ever happening again.

[Oberon]

Solid logic right there!
How about you take a short cut and just hate every human being on the planet because... you know, they're the same species as bad cops as well.


http://i.imgur.com/LcjBTHC.gif

[NeonSamurai]

Absolutely tragic, hopefully a thorough investigation will come up with protocols that prevents this ever happening again.

There are already protocols but they don't do much if they aren't followed.

Frankly I am both amazed and not that this level of stupidity happened. Most sane police forces would never do something like that. They would use a paintball gun, or a purpose built blank gun that cant load live ammo, not a <censored> service weapon. Rule 1 in gun safety, never point a weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot at, even if you think the gun is unloaded.

Also what on earth was the point of this exercise that they needed to use a live fire exercise with a supposedly blank loaded weapon to begin with? I mean I've heard of lots of issues with the Florida PDs, but this just takes it to a whole new level of incompetence.

[Commander Wallace]

Aside from being tragic, this is just negligence, incompetence and abject stupidity at it's worst. :nope:

[Platapus]

Lewis called the shooting an accident

This I found particularly bothersome. Stepping on someone's toe is an accident. Carrying a loaded weapon and using it in an exercise is a bit more than an "oops, what was I thinkin'?" :nope:

[Von Due]

There is no denying this is deeply tragic. I am however inclined to buy into the accident thing of it. Remember how Brandon Lee was killed on set? Some accidents are so bizarre, so utterly inconceivable and yet they happen. What this story tells us, I would say is that: Play with guns and accidents like this WILL happen, more than once given enough time. This idea that we can avoid all accidents by being careful enough is flawed. We as a species are not that careful, nor that far-seeing, copper or no copper. If the reason is bizarre enough, then it's a matter of pure luck or running out of luck, a coin toss.

Now I don't say the copper isn't responsible but as a matter of principle, yes, I can totally see how this could be an accident, a tragic one, where the guy pulling the trigger still has to take responsibility, also possibly any other person who would, as the case may or may not be, have had a saying in any of the security on the training ground.

[u crank]

This I found particularly bothersome. Stepping on someone's toe is an accident. Carrying a loaded weapon and using it in an exercise is a bit more than an "oops, what was I thinkin'?" :nope:

Tragic indeed. Hopefully this will change procedures in all training facilities. I would think that there should be one person who is not involved in the actual exercise that should be responsible for checking all weapons. More than once. Seems like the logical way to go. There can't be to many safeguards in place.

[Commander Wallace]

There is no denying this is deeply tragic. I am however inclined to buy into the accident thing of it. Remember how Brandon Lee was killed on set? Some accidents are so bizarre, so utterly inconceivable and yet they happen. What this story tells us, I would say is that: Play with guns and accidents like this WILL happen, more than once given enough time. This idea that we can avoid all accidents by being careful enough is flawed. We as a species are not that careful, nor that far-seeing, copper or no copper. If the reason is bizarre enough, then it's a matter of pure luck or running out of luck, a coin toss.

Now I don't say the copper isn't responsible but as a matter of principle, yes, I can totally see how this could be an accident, a tragic one, where the guy pulling the trigger still has to take responsibility, also possibly any other person who would, as the case may or may not be, have had a saying in any of the security on the training ground.

I can't buy this for one reason. As U crank, fireftr18 and NeonSamurai have said, the weapons should have been checked before hand and no amount of explaining will change the fact that this tragic affair is from negligence and incompetence. What makes this worse is that the woman was shot by a supposedly professional police officer who should understand firearm safety at it's core. A simple, safety check list virtually eliminates issues and " accidents " like this.


This points to an inadequacy of training of law enforcement officers if they can't even be trusted to handle a firearm. Further, this lack of training is evidenced by the number of non justified shootings of people by police officers untrained in the resolution of disputes and the de escalation of the same disputes.

How many " accidents " or " misunderstandings " have to happen before action is taken with regards to the training of law enforcement personal ?

[NeonSamurai]

There is no denying this is deeply tragic. I am however inclined to buy into the accident thing of it. Remember how Brandon Lee was killed on set? Some accidents are so bizarre, so utterly inconceivable and yet they happen. What this story tells us, I would say is that: Play with guns and accidents like this WILL happen, more than once given enough time. This idea that we can avoid all accidents by being careful enough is flawed. We as a species are not that careful, nor that far-seeing, copper or no copper. If the reason is bizarre enough, then it's a matter of pure luck or running out of luck, a coin toss.

Now I don't say the copper isn't responsible but as a matter of principle, yes, I can totally see how this could be an accident, a tragic one, where the guy pulling the trigger still has to take responsibility, also possibly any other person who would, as the case may or may not be, have had a saying in any of the security on the training ground.

FYI Brandon Lee died due to incompetence, as the stagehand failed to properly check the weapon's barrel before loading it with blanks. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Lee#Death for details. Normally prop weapons (which are usually real weapons) are handled by a firearms expert to ensure accidents like that don't happen. Hollywood is usually pretty meticulous about this, because of the dangers involved with pointing an actual weapon at someone.

This event came down to two reasons:

An exercise like that is foolhardy, and not necessary. They didn't need to use blanks, they could have used what most sane police branches use, air-soft, paintball, or dedicated blank only guns that can't load live ammo. So whoever came up with this is exercise is an idiot. Especially when you consider that even blanks can be dangerous due to the hot gas expelled out the barrel.

The officer in question was grossly incompetent and frankly should be charged with involuntary manslaughter for their actions. That weapon should have been triple checked and locked away before the exercise, and checked again before use. The officer is responsible because he obviously failed to check his weapon, or maybe even put the wrong rounds in.

Now you may say that the military uses blanks all the time, and you would be right, except they use blank firing adapters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blank-firing_adaptor), which offers protection if the weapon is loaded with a live round.

So not really an accident, just utter stupidity and incompetence.

[Von Due]

Well, I am aware of how Lee got killed. It was quite a high profiled case back then. Yes, it was incompetence and negligence then as it was now. However, incompetence and negligence does not exclude it being an accident. Most accidents happen because of incompetence and or idiocy, be it fatal shootings, aircraft accidents, car accidents, human error is the main cause of accidents. Now you might say that this is turning into semantics but it already was a matter of semantics. An accident is an accident whether the guilty is an idiot or not. That's what I'm saying.

[Platapus]

Reminds me of this guy. Except this guy shot himself and not some innocent old lady who was a volunteer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHEOSyMqug

[August]

Now you may say that the military uses blanks all the time, and you would be right, except they use blank firing adapters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blank-firing_adaptor), which offers protection if the weapon is loaded with a live round.

Well, not so much protection to the shooter when the rifle blows up in his face! :)

So not really an accident, just utter stupidity and incompetence.

Spot on.

[Nippelspanner]

Do we have some American here who is or was in LE?
Does someone know how police training works in the US? Like, is it the same on a national basis, do the states have different requirements and training?
I'd assume the best would be a nation-wide reformation. I didn't do research yet, but recently in a short clip I heard about a cop who had training for miserable 6 months. Can anyone confirm this?

I mean if so, I wouldn't be surprised that the number of spoiled apples among cops in America is higher then in other western countries, where training usually is longer, at least it seems like it is.

[Dowly]

I didn't do research yet, but recently in a short clip I heard about a cop who had training for miserable 6 months. Can anyone confirm this?I recall it being six months at least in LA. Which is a terribly short time to train someone to a job like that. :doh:

[Jimbuna]

Do we have some American here who is or was in LE?
Does someone know how police training works in the US? Like, is it the same on a national basis, do the states have different requirements and training?
I'd assume the best would be a nation-wide reformation. I didn't do research yet, but recently in a short clip I heard about a cop who had training for miserable 6 months. Can anyone confirm this?

I mean if so, I wouldn't be surprised that the number of spoiled apples among cops in America is higher then in other western countries, where training usually is longer, at least it seems like it is.

6 months? Luxury, in my day in the UK it was 12 weeks but in fairness that didn't include any specialism such as firearms. Those courses were undertaken only after having completed a 2 year probationary period.

[August]

6 months? Luxury, in my day in the UK it was 12 weeks but in fairness that didn't include any specialism such as firearms. Those courses were undertaken only after having completed a 2 year probationary period.

It takes only 14 weeks to train an Infantryman and that includes basic training.

[NeonSamurai]

Well, not so much protection to the shooter when the rifle blows up in his face! :)

True, though sometimes live rounds can clear the barrel after a shot or 2 without the weapon blowing up, as in the case of a few military deaths. Those individuals were generally charged with negligent homicide, or worse, as their magazine were loaded entirely with live rounds, just like this shooting.


As for training length, several states along with the federal government requires all police trainees to first complete an undergrad degree in criminal justice, law enforcement, or another such degree. Then they can start at the police academy, which lasts 3-4 months on average.


Another thing I forgot to mention, is how on earth did the officer fail to notice he was firing live rounds not blanks, as blanks typically have much lower recoil than a live round (less powder in a blank, plus the resistance from the bullet adds to recoil). He should have noticed something was wrong on the first shot, which he didn't.

[Nippelspanner]

It takes only 14 weeks to train an Infantryman and that includes basic training.
A (basic) infantry man bears next to zero responsibility and in most cases doesn't even have to think for himself that much, a LEO who works alone or with a partner does and has to uphold the law, interacting with civilians in possibly critical situations.

Apples and oranges.

BTW: Becoming a cop in Germany takes 3.5 years.Crazy difference.

[NeonSamurai]

According to my research the training time in the us, can be as little as 1 year (police academy, no prior education beyond highschool) to 4.4 years (4 year undergrad plus ~4 months at the academy). The requirements can be set at either the state level, or sometimes the city/county level too. For example, cities tend to have much longer training/degree lengths, compared to counties. Individual states can run the gambit. Federal requirements also vary between agencies like Fish and Wildlife or the FBI. It's also not unheard of for officers to have more education than the requirements, as that can help get them into the academy, and get hired.

[vienna]

Training requirements and methods vary widely across states, counties/parishes, and cities; if you include narrowly defined law enforcement units such as airport police, school district police, government building and installation police, etc., the disparity is even wider. A lot of the smaller communities often take in to their forces officers who have washed out of the forces of much larger cities. The washouts can be officers who were caught in activities requiring discipline but, rather than face official action by the larger dept., opt for "voluntary" resignation, thus keeping their records reasonably clean and allowing them to apply for other positions elsewhere; some washouts are officers who have exhibited a lack of temperament or skill in dealing with their duties; some washouts are simply those who are goof-offs or lazy and are quietly shown the door. Then there are officers who, having completed the required tenure to qualify for a full pension, will "retire" only to join another, usually smaller, force and start to accumulate additional new credits for another pension. The Los Angeles Police Dept. has what is considered in LE circles, one of the best screening and training processes in the US, so officers who have gone through the process are sought after by other departments, but sometimes what they are getting is not a high quality officer, but, instead a cast-off from the LAPD. A number of the smaller departments around here in Southern California have had problems in the past where an officer on their force has done something illegal and, when the officers background was fully checked, have found the officer left the LAPD under less than satisfactory circumstances...

Then there are the departments of really small jurisdictions where the selection and training process is little better than what you see in old Western movies where a person is deputized right on the spot...



<O>

[Wolferz]

Time for some mandatory remedial training methinks.:doh:

Simulation exercises and live rounds
You gotta keep 'em separated!