Libyan ace Al-Obedi killed in Benghazi

[Oberon]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmrlGilWAAAxLfk.jpg:large

https://www.libyaherald.com/2016/07/06/libyan-airforce-ace-dies-in-benghazi/

Major Idris Hamed Al-Obedi was killed this morning when his MiG-23 crashed into the ground in Benghazis Ganfouda district shortly after he had completed a bombing mission. It is unknown whether he was shot down or whether a technical or pilot error was to blame.
Al-Obedi was one of Libyas most accomplished pilots, having begun flying in 1984 and logged thousands of hours in a multitude of aircraft.
In the west he became noticed for his aerobatic skills and in particular his low fly bys which made their way onto social media and the web.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_WEImFmvWo

RIP Major Al-Obedi.

[Sailor Steve]

Sad loss, but I do have one complaint against the reporting, and that is the use of the word "ace". There is only one circumstance for that term to be used for a pilot, and that is when he has shot down five or more of his enemies. This is not meant to slight Major Al-Obedi, who by all reports was a great pilot, but did he fulfill the requirement for that term?

It's like when reporters call a destroyer a "battleship". It happens a lot, but it doesn't make it so.

[Oberon]

Sad loss, but I do have one complaint against the reporting, and that is the use of the word "ace". There is only one circumstance for that term to be used for a pilot, and that is when he has shot down five or more of his enemies. This is not meant to slight Major Al-Obedi, who by all reports was a great pilot, but did he fulfill the requirement for that term?

It's like when reporters call a destroyer a "battleship". It happens a lot, but it doesn't make it so.

Good point, fair point too. Do ground targets count towards attaining ace status though? And, whilst I was doing a quick bit of research into the definition of an ace, wikipedia made a fair point, how many more Aces will there been in future wars? Since fighter vs fighter combat is becoming less frequent in modern warfare and unmanned aircraft are becoming more common, we could be looking at the end of the era of Aces.

[Jimbuna]

Blue Skies

[Commander Wallace]

From the images, it appears to be a MiG-23 as you mentioned. Wilkipedia suggests the MiG-23 was a fighter / interceptor/ and attack bomber or strike aircraft.

" quote "


Operational history

Western sources, generally attribute a very limited number of confirmed air-to-air victories to the MiG-23 while reporting a higher number of MiG-23s downed mostly by Israeli Air Force in 1982, while Russian sources generally decrease the number of losses and increase the number of inflicted kills bringing the air-to-air kill to loss ratio to around parity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23


Wilkipedia also suggests that a pilot with 5 or more " kills " is sufficient for attaining the status of " ace "


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_ace


This is not meant to be a denigration of his flying abilities.



A better example of an ace might have been German pilot Erich Hartmann (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann) who is the top ace of all time with 352 kills.

The Soviet Air Forces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Air_Forces) has the first Allied pilots in terms of aerial victories, Ivan Kozhedub (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Kozhedub) credited with 66 victories and Alexander Pokryshkin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Pokryshkin) scored 65 victories. It also claimed the only female aces of the war: Lydia Litvyak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Litvyak) scored 12 victories and Yekaterina Budanova (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yekaterina_Budanova) achieved 11 Fighting on different sides, the French pilot Pierre Le Gloan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Le_Gloan) had the unusual distinction of shooting down four German, seven Italian and seven British aircraft, the latter while he was flying for Vichy France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France) in Syria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria).


American Pilot Col. Robin Olds is yet another example. (July 14, 1922 – June 14, 2007) was an American fighter pilot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighter_pilot) and general officer in the U.S. Air Force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force). He was a "triple ace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_ace)", with a combined total of 16 victories in World War II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II) and the Vietnam War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War) He retired in 1973 as a brigadier general (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigadier_general_(United_States)).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Olds


There are many more examples of pilots who have attained " Ace " status

[Schroeder]

From the images, it appears to be a MiG-23 as you mentioned. Wilkipedia suggests the MiG-23 was a fighter / interceptor/ and attack bomber or strike aircraft.

Could also be a 27 which is the ground attack version of the 23. :hmm2:

[Commander Wallace]

Could also be a 27 which is the ground attack version of the 23. :hmm2:

Because the MiG 23 and 27 share the same basic airframe and as you said, the MiG 27 is the ground attack version of the MiG 23, you are right, except the MiG 27 has a " Platapus nose " the MiG 23 nose is more stream lined. :cool: The picture Oberon posted looks like it has a stream lined nose but it's hard to tell since the aircraft nose profile is not visible in it's entirety.

[Dowly]

AFAIK, ground kills were not counted, unless you were someone like Rudel (who, IIRC, was called an ace in terms of ground kills, but not an actual 'ace')

As such, he is no 'ace', but sorry to hear of his loss nevertheless.

[Oberon]

AFAIK, ground kills were not counted, unless you were someone like Rudel (who, IIRC, was called an ace in terms of ground kills, but not an actual 'ace')

As such, he is no 'ace', but sorry to hear of his loss nevertheless.

I think Rudel got 7 air kills too so was also a proper Ace.

[Von Due]

War is a strange business and during WW2 there were commanders who accepted ground kills as counting for ace status. Whether the top brass knew or not is another story entirely. Another issue is overclaiming which happened in all involved airforces during that war. Nowadays one would perhaps think it's harder to overclaim, what with all the electronic eyes watching but who knows what can happen when things get a bit out of hand.

(On a total sidenote: The WW2 German Jg 27, while stationed in North Africa were accused of overclaiming by those in the unit who didn't get their iron crosses. It died out with no real action taken except for the alleged masterminds, but it's a curious story what happened to one of their pilots. A genuine ace he faced the possibility of being stripped of his victories with the rest. He took off and crashed his plane into the sea. Serious business indeed.
That story was told in the book "A Higher Call" in case someone want to read about pilots on the other side.)

Anyway, that was somewhat off topic.

[Raptor1]

Because the MiG 23 and 27 share the same basic airframe and as you said, the MiG 27 is the ground attack version of the MiG 23, you are right, except the MiG 27 has a " Platapus nose " the MiG 23 nose is more stream lined. :cool: The picture Oberon posted looks like it has a stream lined nose but it's hard to tell since the aircraft nose profile is not visible in it's entirety.

The aircraft in the picture must be a MiG-23 because it has the variable intake ramps that were removed from the MiG-27.

[Oberon]

The aircraft in the picture must be a MiG-23 because it has the variable intake ramps that were removed from the MiG-27.

Yeah, it is a 23ML, Libya doesn't have any 27s, and now they only have one 23. :oops:



(On a total sidenote: The WW2 German Jg 27, while stationed in North Africa were accused of overclaiming by those in the unit who didn't get their iron crosses. It died out with no real action taken except for the alleged masterminds, but it's a curious story what happened to one of their pilots. A genuine ace he faced the possibility of being stripped of his victories with the rest. He took off and crashed his plane into the sea. Serious business indeed.
That story was told in the book "A Higher Call" in case someone want to read about pilots on the other side.)

Anyway, that was somewhat off topic.

Ah yes, 27, that was Marseilles unit wasn't it? Good chap, and not a bad pilot either despite his Lolwaffle tendancies with landings... :haha:

[Von Due]

Ah yes, 27, that was Marseilles unit wasn't it? Good chap, and not a bad pilot either despite his Lolwaffle tendancies with landings... :haha:

Indeed it was. The Eternal Headache of his superiors who didn't watch him fly. Good thing for him Berlin didn't seem to know their Star of Africa was a loose cannon with a taste for women and jazz music. No military marches on his gramophone player :haha: Could very well be he saw himself a jazz plane lander as well.

[Catfish]

^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAUVgjT8R6M

Saw it first at the age of 14 or so, even then was not exactly blown away by some trickfilm scenes..

[Oberon]

^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAUVgjT8R6M

Saw it first at the age of 14 or so, even then was not exactly blown away by some trickfilm scenes..

Oh nice, will have to have a look at that later.

One tidbit about Marseille I found in the wiki made me chuckle:

Marseille was a gifted pianist and was invited to play a piece at the home of Willy Messerschmitt, an industrialist and designer of the Messerschmitt Bf 109 fighter Marseille had achieved so much success in.
Guests at the party included Adolf Hitler, party chairman Martin Borman, Hitler's deputy and Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, Hermann Göring, head of the SS, Heinrich Himmler and Reich Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels.
After impressing with a display of piano play for over an hour, including Ludwig van Beethoven's Für Elise, Marseille proceeded to play American Jazz, which was considered degenerate in Nazi ideology. Hitler stood, raised his hand, and said "I think we've heard enough" and left the room.
Magda Goebbels found the prank amusing and Artur Axmann recalled how his "blood froze" when he heard this "Ragtime" music being played in front of the Führer.

[Commander Wallace]

The aircraft in the picture must be a MiG-23 because it has the variable intake ramps that were removed from the MiG-27.

I thought as much. I figured someone knowledgeable about aircraft like you, Schroeder or others in the forum would figure it out and correctly Identify the aircraft. I didn't know about the variable intake ramps missing on the MiG 27 though. I know they are there for aiding in compression at supersonic speeds.

I'm guessing they were not needed on a dedicated attack aircraft like the MiG 27 flying subsonic attack missions ?

[Von Due]

One tidbit about Marseille I found in the wiki made me chuckle:

:har: Galland forgot to include ragtime in the Fighter Pilot Revolt's demands.

[Raptor1]

I'm guessing they were not needed on a dedicated attack aircraft like the MiG 27 flying subsonic attack missions ?

That is my understanding of it, yes.

[Catfish]

[...] He took off and crashed his plane into the sea. Serious business indeed.
That story was told in the book "A Higher Call" in case someone want to read about pilots on the other side. [...]

Wasn't "A higher call" about Stigler and Brown? Who was the german pilot who crashed his plane into the sea? :hmm2:
Even more OT: Regarding Stigler and the B17, I read in Deighton's "Fighters" that it happened several times, that some german pilots accompanied damaged british fighters home, which, as they said, "would never have been possible in Russia" (all WW2).

P.S. "Fighters" and "Bombers" (both by Len Deighton) are two real good books about the Battle of Britain (which wasn't one) and the bomber swarms and their interceptors. "Fighters" is a history book concentrating on the machines, "Bombers" is fictional and a novel, but footing in reality using changed names and describing real incidents.

[Von Due]

Wasn't "A higher call" about Stigler and Brown? Who was the german pilot who crashed his plane into the sea? :hmm2:

The book is mostly about Stigler and Brown but "mostly mostly" about Stigler. It is also about the war in general, and other individuals, like people Stigler came across. His fellow pilots, his officers, his family. As for the name, I would need to dig up the book, and look it up.


Even more OT: Regarding Stigler and the B17, I read in Deighton's "Fighters" that it happened several times, that some german pilots accompanied damaged british fighters home, which, as they said, "would never have been possible in Russia" (all WW2).

I'm not too surprised really. The story we were told through the media, through hollywood movies, through veterans who were somewhere else entirely, those stories you can find in wartime propaganda. This is true for all sides involved. The real story of the individuals who fought is another story entirely. The German and British pilots had the same job, they knew what the other guy was going through.

[Oberon]

I read in Deighton's "Fighters" that it happened several times, that some german pilots accompanied damaged british fighters home, which, as they said, "would never have been possible in Russia" (all WW2).

:yep: This is true, and I believe it happened on both sides too, I recall hearing of an incident during the BOB when Galland came across a student learning in a Tiger Moth, rather than take the easy kill he came alongside, waggled his wings and then flew off.
It was quite a different war, the war in the west compared to the war in the east, both sides treated the other as equals and had measured respect for each other. Although, sadly, like in all wars, there were some who had no respect:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8LVlYJ5eJU

[Catfish]

^ Never heard of that, only from "Taffy" Jones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ira_Thomas_Jones

"My habit of attacking Huns dangling from their parachutes led to many arguments in the mess. Some officers, of the Eton and Sandhurst type, thought it was 'unsportsmanlike' to do it. Never having been to a public school, I was unhampered by such considerations of form. I just pointed out that there was a bloody war on, and that I intended to avenge my pals."
Seems it was in WW1 though (?), Jones only flew for a very short time during the BoB.

There was some discussion whether it was allowed to shoot at bailed-out pilots with parachutes over enemy territory, when the pilot would live to fight another day, but after all you seldom hear of that.


Sry, thread derailed..

[Oberon]

Sry, thread derailed..

As the OP, I hereby give permission for this derailment. :yep:
It's an interesting talk and I think that Al-Obedi wouldn't mind us talking about pilots and their personalities and ethical choices. He was one after all, and he knew war too, not as vast and as destructive as WWII but still brutal and terrible in its own way and in his own land.

[Kongo Otto]

^ Never heard of that, only from "Taffy" Jones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ira_Thomas_Jones

"My habit of attacking Huns dangling from their parachutes led to many arguments in the mess. Some officers, of the Eton and Sandhurst type, thought it was 'unsportsmanlike' to do it. Never having been to a public school, I was unhampered by such considerations of form. I just pointed out that there was a bloody war on, and that I intended to avenge my pals."
Seems it was in WW1 though (?), Jones only flew for a very short time during the BoB.

There was some discussion whether it was allowed to shoot at bailed-out pilots with parachutes over enemy territory, when the pilot would live to fight another day, but after all you seldom hear of that.


Sry, thread derailed..


Pilots bailing out must have been pretty late in the war, because the first Parachutes to german aircraft pilots were issued in late July early August 1918. The RAF and the other allied air forces did not issue Parachutes to aircraft crews during WW1.

[Wolferz]

His Ace was the last thing to go through his mind on impact.:O: