Game too easy

[lukterran]

Is there any mod that makes the game realistically more intelligent?

I'm not looking for better sensors for the IJN but just smarter tactics. (Sensors don't matter to me because I don't even have to "hide" from escorts.)

It isn't a challenge for me to locate a convoy and sink every ship. I just dive, get into firing position and fire on the first ship in the merchant convoy and send it to the bottom.

I then ID the escorts and wait for them to come running after me. Saving the rest of my fish for them. I don't even need to worry about staying silent (actually it helps if they know where I am). As soon as they get close under 1000 yards, I just torp them at point blank range so they don't have time to turn out of the path.

The escorts behave like Pac Man ghosts charging at Pac Man completely oblivious to the fact he is sitting next to a power pelt.

Even in the rare case that I miss with a torp shot on a charging DD and it tries to depth charge me. It is easy enough to flank and crash dive and turn to avoid any attacks and rise again to periscope depth after it passes over and hit it with a torp as it comes around.

Once the escorts are gone it is easy to pick the rest of the merchants off that have been hanging around in an unorganized group with either deck gun or the remain torpedoes.

If the Japanese send in aircraft. Usually just dive and wait for them to leave area or if I get caught on the surface my AA gunner has about a 90% kill ratio. Just flank speed and hard zig zag turns usually makes sure the bombs don't hit their targets.

I know this is very "gamey" play style. The problem is that I understand the game behavior and how to ships will react it isn't challenging anymore.

Why don't the merchants keep moving at full speed away from the area? The sub moving underwater couldn't catch up. It seems like a more realistic response to GTFO of an area with a sub than to just hang around.

Also the escorts don't operate as a unit. But each as an individual. If they lined up side-by-side and dropped depth charges across wide area or strip of ocean together they would easily catch any sub trying to turn out of their path.

[cdrsubron7]

Have you tried TMO v2.5? It raises the bar on realism quite abit. :D

[max-peck]

Listen to cdrsubron7 - try TMO 2.5
It will force you to play as a genuine American skipper during the war
Aircraft are deadly
If you elect to stay on the surface and shoot it out with them you will end up with a wrecked submarine very soon/

You can be bombed by aircraft at periscope depth (rare - but it does happen - has happened to me a few times whilst setting up an attack)

If you battle surface to deck gun something there is a a very good chance they will answer with so much ordnance it will puncture your pressure hull and you end up not being to submerge and in a world of hurt

If you do not plan your attack on escorted merchants you can end up in a world of hurt

You cannot just go deep and silent and think job done - you will have to think about your escape route before you attack

If not - you may have to suffer a few hours depth charging :)
Do not even think about attacking anything escorted in shallow waters - they will hunt you down and they will kill you:up:

The stock AI experience is laughably easy - that is why we have so many excellent mods on SUBSIM to fix that :salute:

Try TMO 2.5 - I think it may just be what you are looking for

PS - or you may want to wait until FOTRS Ultimate is finished - it is being worked on at the moment
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=226270

It is the best of TMO merged woth the best of FOTRS
I think it may give you the challenge you are after, as well as adding loads of functionality and eye candy too!

[Captain Dave]

Are you using auto or manual targeting?

[lukterran]

Are you using auto or manual targeting?

Using Manual Targeting with OTC mod only.

TMO sounds too me like all that it does is make your sub weaker to damage, which doesn't even have a chance of happening to me. Does it arm all the merchants? Because I am not looking for a mod that unrealistically turns ever merchant convoy into an SAG.

[XTBilly]

Using Manual Targeting with OTC mod only.

TMO sounds too me like all that it does is make your sub weaker to damage, which doesn't even have a chance of happening to me. Does it arm all the merchants? Because I am not looking for a mod that unrealistically turns ever merchant convoy into an SAG.

TMO does not make your sub weaker at all, in fact it gives them the ability to dive much deeper. The only approach so far to make the destroyers deadlier is by making their sensors better. The game has limitations to what can be modded. And, believe me, TMO escorts are DEADLY. Much deadlier than you actually think. You must use all your skills to evade them.

It does not arm all the merchants as far as I remember, haven't played it for some time...

Why don't you give it a try? If you really think you're good, you may be surpsised...:03:
Good luck! You'll need it!:)

Regards,
Billy.

[propbeanie]

... and, as the game progresses through time, ASW gets more "deadly", as the tools to fight against the sub get better, and tactics get better.

[fireftr18]

You can also add RSRDC to TMO. RSRDC renders traffic and AI skill as historically accurate as the game allows.

[Rockin Robbins]

I would disagree that RSRDC makes enemy AI as accurate as the game allows. For instance, RSRDC cancels out Ducimus' Evil Airplanes, Lurker hated them, even though they were perfectly accurate and an ingenious (cruel) addition to the game.

RSRDC's traffic aims to replicate every Japanese ship sortie of the game (a claim I deeply doubt. How would the records of a defeated nation bombed into the stone age be perfect?) But that introduces a laughable fallacy to the game.

You see, the US sub skippers didn't have a fancy Japanese shipping chart, complete with changes each year during the war. They didn't know where they would encounter shipping. Their charts were often centerfold maps from National Geographic magazine from the 1920s. What they found was accidental or the result of going where they were sent.

From the standpoint of the skipper of a US submarine in the war, encounters were random, not expected, as in RSRDC. In RSRDC if convoys were sent out once every other day during the war from a certain port, you can just sit outside the port and rack in the tonnage, because you're fighting a pre-programmed bot which pays no attention to you whatever.

I've said it before, but it's a great example. It's as if someone set out to make a perfect simulator of the Frazier/Ali II fight. You're Ali and Frazier is programmed for "RSRDC realism." (in this alternate reality RSRDC is worshipped as the ultimate way to realistic simulation) So Frazier is out there throwing punch for punch exactly what he did in the fight.

You can stay on the stool at the start of the round. Frazier won't come after you, he's in the center of the ring punching the air in the exact place where Ali stood in 1971! What accuracy! Halfway through round 1 you get off the stool, slowly and in perfect safety, shuffle over behind Frazier and knock him out with one punch to the back of the head. He could not see or react to you. He was busy throwing the exact same punches that worked 45 years ago.

You go home and write a review about how awesome the game is and how Ali/Frazier II Simulator renders traffic and AI skill as historically accurate as humanly possible. NOT!!:har::har:

Historical accuracy is that both Japanese and Americans governed their operations according to what they thought at the time were their strengths and the enemy's weaknesses. If a sub got a sinking outside a port, the Japanese routed shipping around the sub. If the sub wanted more targets it had to move to a new hunting ground. If the real war were to have a do-over, it would unfold in a different manner, with different battles in different places with different results. It would not be "RSRDC accurate!"

There were big breakthroughs that made Silent Hunter 3 and 4 successful, but the most important factor is the dynamic campaign, where you can't predict encounters, where you react to what the enemy does and they react to you. RSRDC restores the scripted games that were exactly the reason people were excited about the huge advance between Silent Hunter 2 and Silent Hunter 3! The fact that we celebrate that Silent Hunter 4 can become the failure that was Silent Hunter 2 is just mind blowing to me. The fact that they call a game fossilized into complete immobility "historically accurate" is complete lunacy. A predictable enemy is a defeated enemy. And a complete farce.

By the way, no adaptation of RSRDC will be coming to FOTRS Ultimate.

[captcrane]

I guess I must really suck at this game. With manual targeting even in the stock game I wouldn't openly go looking for destroyers or hang around to take them on.

[XTBilly]

I would disagree that RSRDC makes enemy AI as accurate as the game allows. For instance, RSRDC cancels out Ducimus' Evil Airplanes, Lurker hated them, even though they were perfectly accurate and an ingenious (cruel) addition to the game.

RSRDC's traffic aims to replicate every Japanese ship sortie of the game (a claim I deeply doubt. How would the records of a defeated nation bombed into the stone age be perfect?) But that introduces a laughable fallacy to the game.

You see, the US sub skippers didn't have a fancy Japanese shipping chart, complete with changes each year during the war. They didn't know where they would encounter shipping. Their charts were often centerfold maps from National Geographic magazine from the 1920s. What they found was accidental or the result of going where they were sent.

From the standpoint of the skipper of a US submarine in the war, encounters were random, not expected, as in RSRDC. In RSRDC if convoys were sent out once every other day during the war from a certain port, you can just sit outside the port and rack in the tonnage, because you're fighting a pre-programmed bot which pays no attention to you whatever.

I've said it before, but it's a great example. It's as if someone set out to make a perfect simulator of the Frazier/Ali II fight. You're Ali and Frazier is programmed for "RSRDC realism." (in this alternate reality RSRDC is worshipped as the ultimate way to realistic simulation) So Frazier is out there throwing punch for punch exactly what he did in the fight.

You can stay on the stool at the start of the round. Frazier won't come after you, he's in the center of the ring punching the air in the exact place where Ali stood in 1971! What accuracy! Halfway through round 1 you get off the stool, slowly and in perfect safety, shuffle over behind Frazier and knock him out with one punch to the back of the head. He could not see or react to you. He was busy throwing the exact same punches that worked 45 years ago.

You go home and write a review about how awesome the game is and how Ali/Frazier II Simulator renders traffic and AI skill as historically accurate as humanly possible. NOT!!:har::har:

Historical accuracy is that both Japanese and Americans governed their operations according to what they thought at the time were their strengths and the enemy's weaknesses. If a sub got a sinking outside a port, the Japanese routed shipping around the sub. If the sub wanted more targets it had to move to a new hunting ground. If the real war were to have a do-over, it would unfold in a different manner, with different battles in different places with different results. It would not be "RSRDC accurate!"

There were big breakthroughs that made Silent Hunter 3 and 4 successful, but the most important factor is the dynamic campaign, where you can't predict encounters, where you react to what the enemy does and they react to you. RSRDC restores the scripted games that were exactly the reason people were excited about the huge advance between Silent Hunter 2 and Silent Hunter 3! The fact that we celebrate that Silent Hunter 4 can become the failure that was Silent Hunter 2 is just mind blowing to me. The fact that they call a game fossilized into complete immobility "historically accurate" is complete lunacy. A predictable enemy is a defeated enemy. And a complete farce.

By the way, no adaptation of RSRDC will be coming to FOTRS Ultimate.

Great example and great comment. Completely agree with everything said.

Billy.

[Rockin Robbins]

First of all, they're a waste of torpedoes. You only have a few torpedoes on board to start with. Wasting them on no tonnage destroyers is not wise, even if you could hit them all the time.

But with TMO you can fire a torpedo down the throat with them on your tail and you wide open throttle, wait until they're 400 yards away. If you shoot one you have about a 50% chance of hitting them. If you shoot three then two of them automatically miss for zero tonnage.

In TMO the DDs can sashay out of the way of torpedoes like a matador from a charging bull. You come up empty and they're 400 yards away coming like gangbusters. That first drop is deadly accurate no matter how you try to squirm out of the way.

And in construction is Fall of the Rising Sun Ultimate with an AI module by Florida Sailor which we will label "Impossible Difficulty." If you want to be punished, this plugin mod will be designed to make you run for home crying to your mommy!:D:D:D It will be Bungo Pete times hundreds of equally smart escorts.

[Bleiente]

These remarks and insults over RSRDC and Lurker I can not agree.
If one clearly adheres in RSRDC to his commands as CO, to get at all in such situations, as they were described in advance. Where the skipper has to go out, no responsibility of its decision-making power ... he can only decide in and out of the situation, what he is doing there. :yep:

In addition, a drive in RSRDC no "Zombi-ships" more about the way ... maybe 10 countersunk Yamato`s ... this always made me most annoyed at the dynamic missions. :shifty:

We should not forget the great and exchanged for remuneration without work have left us Ducimus and Lurker ... and they had always worked together and / or to each other. :salute:

Those who like to want the evil planes in RSRDC - you can quite simply re-activate.
And who wants to experience love incarnate Bungo Pete, you just pause via SH2 / DC to mess with me ... he will fail in his submarine. :D

Sooo ... I am looking for my old times Destroyer Command ... :rock:

On a "bouquet" of sunken submarines. :arrgh!:

[Rockin Robbins]

These remarks and insults over RSRDC and Lurker I can not agree.
First of all, I'm not insulting Lurker. I'm criticizing his mod. My criticism is on two levels: one that he puts the war in a straitjacket where the Japanese send the exact missions and convoys out that they did during the war whether or not that would be appropriate. In fact war is a dynamic thing that wouldn't repeat itself were it to be done over in real life. Lurker paralyzes the enemy, renders him completely predictable and thereby cripples Silent Hunter 4.

The second level is that RSRDC is not a campaign layer, as advertised. In fact, it extends tentacles into every aspect of the game. It is a supermod in itself, and if you layer it over RFB, TMO or GFO you are no longer playing those mods. All their settings are overridden by unannounced RSRDC changes. For example, Ducimus' brilliant evil airplanes that see you are periscope depth are just wiped out arbitrarily by RSRDC. This is not a product of "working together." Had Ducimus known the extent to which RSRDC nullified all his carefully balanced gameplay, he would have been outraged. However, at that time Ducimus was pretty burned out. He never checked to see to what degree RSRDC wiped out TMO. He merely trusted Lurker, even saying "if Lurker says it's compatible, it's compatible." It wasn't, unless your definition of compatible is "the game doesn't crash to desktop when you run the two mods together."

While Lurker was vicious about defending his mod, saying that various one file mods that interfered with RSRDC not at all were not compatible, he was running amock, changing every aspect of supermods he claimed RSRDC was compatible with.

The honorable way to make RSRDC would have been as a standalone mod built on the stock game only, like TMO, RFB, GFO and FOTRS. They specifically say that they change just about every aspect of the game, and as such are not compatible with each other or other mods. Mods should do what they say they do. They should not do what they don't say they do. The end, and everyone would live happily ever after if modders were that honorable.

Insults are calling names. I point to specific behavior and why it is bad. There's an important difference there. I even jumped on Webster once on an ethics issue and he didn't go ballistic and claim I was insulting him. I don't do that.

In addition, a drive in RSRDC no "Zombi-ships" more about the way ... maybe 10 countersunk Yamato`s ... this always made me most annoyed at the dynamic missions. :shifty:

It's hard coded in the game that if you run into a task force you can specify the types of ships in the task force, but not the exact ships themselves. RSRDC can't do anything about encountering the Yamato multiple times in a career. And it doesn't.

We should not forget the great and exchanged for remuneration without work have left us Ducimus and Lurker ... and they had always worked together and / or to each other. :salute:

I was there. I actually worked with them. No, Lurker and Ducimus were not working together, they were working at the same time on separate projects. Ducimus thought RSRDC was compatible because Lurker claimed it was, and by Lurker's very strong defense against other mods assumed that Lurker applied those same standards to himself. Ducimus was wrong.

Those who like to want the evil planes in RSRDC - you can quite simply re-activate.
Show of hands! Who knows how to "simply re-activate" Duci's evil airplanes? Anybody? Nobody? That's what I thought. I did write a mod to restore Duci's planes to RSRDC. But there are dozens of other gameplay and AI changes that RSRDC commits which nobody has researched or countered.

As a matter of fact only Webster has a patch to undo RSRDC gameplay shenanigans to his mod. A couple thousand bonus points tossed Webster's way for insisting on the integrity of his mod.

Modders simply shouldn't step on each others' territory without clear agreement between the modders and clear notice to players. That's one of the major reasons for being for the new FOTRS Ultimate mod. It will feature a large collection of single purpose, guaranteed compatible plugin mods so the player is in control of his game.

Compatible means two things: that a plugin makes the changes it says and those are the ONLY changes it makes. You want evil airplanes? Install the evil airplane plugin. Want 'em out? Remove the plugin during a campaign, even during a mission without returning to base! Want the game easier? Plugin. Want it back? Plugout. Even during a fight. We're going to show what "compatible" should have been from the beginning, and that modders don't need to dictate the environment the players play in. Players deserve to be in charge of all that. Modders are to make possibilities available, not to choose them.

Lurker is a very capable modder. Were he to be active here I'd be the first to see if he would make up a campaign mod. But it would be ONLY a campaign mod, introducing scripting to existing ships and with existing capabilities not to be interfered with. No new ships. No reconfigured enemy AI. No environmental hocus pocus. No modifications to your submarine. No messing with airplanes. No reconfiguring sonar. No torpedo modifications. Just campaign changes, as the title of the mod and the description in the download area says. More is not better! For players to be in charge of their games modders need discipline.

And all of this is not my idea. I stole it, fair and square, lock, stock and barrel from Webster. That's not a joke, it's the simple truth. And I hold myself to the same standard I advocate for others.

[Vince82]

I increase the depthcharge sink speed, and blast damage/radius values with a crush depth between 200-250m. I usually survive just a few patrols. I'm a sh3 player though, because enemy radar/air cover is a very nice challenge.

Another thing you could do is tweaking/modding the AI sensors.

Have you ever tried SH3 NYMG?

[Vince82]

I increase the depthcharge sink speed, and blast damage/radius values with a crush depth between 200-250m. I usually survive just a few patrols. I'm a sh3 player though, because enemy radar/air cover is a very nice challenge.

Another thing you could do is tweaking/modding the AI sensors.

Have you ever tried SH3 NYGM?

[lukterran]

I guess I must really suck at this game. With manual targeting even in the stock game I wouldn't openly go looking for destroyers or hang around to take them on.

Actually it is the exact opposite. When you come upon a large convoy with dozens of merchants that are protected by only 4 DDs, it is much easier just to kill the dogs first, then you can kill the sheep at your leisure.

Only takes 4 torps to clear out the DDs. Then you can surface and use your deck gun to sink all the merchants and save your torps for better targets like Task Force carrier or BB.

[Rockin Robbins]

Only takes 4 torps to clear out the DDs.
Wow! It's been many years since I had it that easy. I'll have to make a video of stalking an Asashio with Fall of the Rising Sun, a mod easier than TMO. You could waste four or five torpedoes trying to sink a DD.

Then if you hit him perfectly on the nose, the stock bug where they have Kryptonite noses that can't be blown up. If that happens there's a magnificent plume and out of the carnage charges a very pissed off Asashio to depth charge you as if you never touched him. This is true in the stock game and all mods.

Again, in reasonably modded, TMO or FOTRS, SH4 the DDs can avoid your torpedoes very well and you have about a 50% chance of a down the throat from 500 yards or less. Longer range is a guaranteed miss.

If you can make a video of cleaning out a convoy by killing the dogs off first I'd love to see it!

[lukterran]

Wow! It's been many years since I had it that easy. I'll have to make a video of stalking an Asashio with Fall of the Rising Sun, a mod easier than TMO. You could waste four or five torpedoes trying to sink a DD.

Then if you hit him perfectly on the nose, the stock bug where they have Kryptonite noses that can't be blown up. If that happens there's a magnificent plume and out of the carnage charges a very pissed off Asashio to depth charge you as if you never touched him. This is true in the stock game and all mods.

Again, in reasonably modded, TMO or FOTRS, SH4 the DDs can avoid your torpedoes very well and you have about a 50% chance of a down the throat from 500 yards or less. Longer range is a guaranteed miss.

If you can make a video of cleaning out a convoy by killing the dogs off first I'd love to see it!

Sure I will try and get some video capture working tonight and show an example of clearing out a convoy. Might be a day or two before I will be able to post it.

[max-peck]

Actually it is the exact opposite. When you come upon a large convoy with dozens of merchants that are protected by only 4 DDs, it is much easier just to kill the dogs first, then you can kill the sheep at your leisure.

Only takes 4 torps to clear out the DDs. Then you can surface and use your deck gun to sink all the merchants and save your torps for better targets like Task Force carrier or BB.

Sure you can, did it myself many times when running stock :)
But if you are running a decent supermod the merchant will shoot back
If you are taking on a convoy in a gunnery duel they will all shoot back
May end badly for you :03:

[Bleiente]

Sure you can, did it myself many times when running stock :)
But if you are running a decent supermod the merchant will shoot back
If you are taking on a convoy in a gunnery duel they will all shoot back
May end badly for you :03:
He has no idea of super mod or realism mod ... he plays only Vanilla ... and thinks he's a hero. :har:
I'm excited about the video. :yep:

[Rockin Robbins]

Sure I will try and get some video capture working tonight and show an example of clearing out a convoy. Might be a day or two before I will be able to post it.
Thanks. It's been a long time since I've played vanilla and I'd like to get an idea how stock DDs act.:up:

[XTBilly]

You could waste four or five torpedoes trying to sink a DD.

Then if you hit him perfectly on the nose, the stock bug where they have Kryptonite noses that can't be blown up. If that happens there's a magnificent plume and out of the carnage charges a very pissed off Asashio to depth charge you as if you never touched him. This is true in the stock game and all mods.



This is very true.

However, FOTRS Ultimate Edition will force those destroyers to accelerate like a 2400 tons ship does, not a powerboat. Also sinking mechanics that will make the poor Asashio curse it's bad luck for receiving a fore torpedo hit, a hit that will surely doom it. It will however, hunt you down till it slips beneath the waves!:D:rock:

[Rockin Robbins]

Last night I was playing FOTRS Ultimate v.03Alpha and sank an armed merchant. When the sunk symbol occurred on my nav map I surfaced, whereupon he proceeded to unleash on me with his deck gun! I submerged again.

A deck gun on a merchant is twice as effective as a deck gun on a submarine: more accurate and one good hit from him and I'm done. I have to hit him at least a hundred times to sink him. Advantage merchie!:arrgh!:

[XTBilly]

Actually it is the exact opposite. When you come upon a large convoy with dozens of merchants that are protected by only 4 DDs, it is much easier just to kill the dogs first, then you can kill the sheep at your leisure.

Only takes 4 torps to clear out the DDs. Then you can surface and use your deck gun to sink all the merchants and save your torps for better targets like Task Force carrier or BB.

Dear friend, You don't have to prove anything here,no one doubts your good ship hunting skills.

What people are trying to tell you is that they've had their azzes kicked and given to them several times by mods which no longer have destroyers hampered by those factors which make the stock game easier. I've been depth charged and sunk several times by stock escorts, although I'm no stranger to evasion tactics.

An easy game is a boring game. That's what very talented modders changed and are still changing, to give the players more challenge, and the game more longevity. If I find myself in the position where 4 DDs are circling and pinging over me...:hmmm: It's not going to be "happy time", if you know what I mean...:D

This video would be very interesting though... Good luck!:arrgh!:

[max-peck]

Dear friend, You don't have to prove anything here,no one doubts your good ship hunting skills.

Exactly - well said XTBilly

lukterran - I am not trying to make fun of you with my post.
However your original post stated that you are looking for a decent challenge. We are pointing out that if you use a decent supermod you may well get the challenge you are looking for :salute:

[lukterran]

Dear friend, You don't have to prove anything here,no one doubts your good ship hunting skills.

What people are trying to tell you is that they've had their azzes kicked and given to them several times by mods which no longer have destroyers hampered by those factors which make the stock game easier. I've been depth charged and sunk several times by stock escorts, although I'm no stranger to evasion tactics.

An easy game is a boring game. That's what very talented modders changed and are still changing, to give the players more challenge, and the game more longevity. If I find myself in the position where 4 DDs are circling and pinging over me...:hmmm: It's not going to be "happy time", if you know what I mean...:D

This video would be very interesting though... Good luck!:arrgh!:

That was the whole point of this thread. I was looking for a mod that makes the Escorts and the merchants "smarter" and behave in a way that isn't like a retarded robots.

The merchants should be avoiding me and any exploded ships like the plague not hanging around in a disorganized group and waiting for me to pick them to pieces. Like I said if they just kept moving away at full speeds they would be no way a submerged sub could catch up to them. They would outpace and outrange you very quickly.

The escorts shouldn't playing lone hero either all the time and full steaming at a known subs location. Maybe the first or second escort can behave that way at first. But if the two DDs just got blown out of the water perhaps the other DDs might be smart enough stay out of torp range (over 2000 yards) away and call in air support to drop bombs on the sub location while they kept track of the subs location. Or just leave the area with the merchants and protect them from surface attacks.

I really not looking for a mod that makes the escorts have super stats and impenetrable armor or have the ability to zoom around the seas at unbelievable speeds and make breakneck turns like they are formula one race cars.

Escorts with better sensors really doesn't matter at this point because I'm not playing "the silent and deep" hiding game with them. I actually want them to detect me. I am playing the hang out just below the surface and daring them close with 1000 yards or less firing range game.

I am even ok with the merchants being reasonably armed for what it was like during WWII. Having them being reasonably accurate as well. But I not looking for a mod that turns the merchant convoys into Surface Attack Groups with similar fire power.

[max-peck]

They do not
Please try TMO 2.5 :D

It does not turn the IJN into Supermen
But it does make you try and play like a real WW2 skipper :up:

[propbeanie]

Last night I was playing FOTRS Ultimate v.03Alpha and sank an armed merchant. When the sunk symbol occurred on my nav map I surfaced, whereupon he proceeded to unleash on me with his deck gun! I submerged again.

A deck gun on a merchant is twice as effective as a deck gun on a submarine: more accurate and one good hit from him and I'm done. I have to hit him at least a hundred times to sink him. Advantage merchie!:arrgh!:

"Real" ships (as opposed the re-floatable sinkable kind) usually have a much more stable "platform" to shoot from also.

If I *ever* get my epic film making skills in order, I've got some "footage" of a merchie, blown in two (by me, of course...) - (while in FotRS Ultimate v0.03 Alpha, btw), with the tail gunner still at his station, with the aft of the ship almost consumed by fire, as it's sinking at a steep angle... What kind of "dedication to duty" is that?... "Artificial Intelligence"?... While they were earlier participating in a surface ship to surface ship engagement involving battleships, there's this little dude, firing away at the Allied BBs, over a mile away, with his little pea-shooter of an ack-ack gun, that sounded like it was a 5-incher...

[max-peck]

I really not looking for a mod that makes the escorts have super stats and impenetrable armor or have the ability to zoom around the seas at unbelievable speeds and make breakneck turns like they are formula one race cars.


I will be honest with you, I do not know of a single mod on this site that does any of this.

The mod I use (TMO 2.5) does not make all the destroyers superman, or ironman, or the flash, or michael schumacker

However it does make me approach an escorted convoy with a little bit of trepidation, and try to figure out my attack profile before contact, and make me figure out my escape route before I fire torpedoes, because I know that if I do that my chance of surviving goes up.

I will be honest with you lukterran, I am not sure what you want?

The mod I use makes the game more difficult in the way I have detailed above

Sometimes I get the bear
Sometimes the bear gets me

Is this not what you want?

[Bleiente]

Hi @lukteran!

My friendly advice - try it out the following constellation:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=225443

I originally created the ModSoup for TMO_RSRDC_OTC for myself (currently for me the most meaningful Combo).

My goal in this compilation was to create a balanced gameplay with all the graphic and content as advantages.
Very important to me was to integrate a certain game realism and / or atmosphere ... the extent permitted by game SH4.

Try it out. I think you may like and your desires satisfied.

Hope this helps you further now.
Best regards :salute:

[XTBilly]

That was the whole point of this thread. I was looking for a mod that makes the Escorts and the merchants "smarter" and behave in a way that isn't like a retarded robots.

The merchants should be avoiding me and any exploded ships like the plague not hanging around in a disorganized group and waiting for me to pick them to pieces. Like I said if they just kept moving away at full speeds they would be no way a submerged sub could catch up to them. They would outpace and outrange you very quickly.

The escorts shouldn't playing lone hero either all the time and full steaming at a known subs location. Maybe the first or second escort can behave that way at first. But if the two DDs just got blown out of the water perhaps the other DDs might be smart enough stay out of torp range (over 2000 yards) away and call in air support to drop bombs on the sub location while they kept track of the subs location. Or just leave the area with the merchants and protect them from surface attacks.

I really not looking for a mod that makes the escorts have super stats and impenetrable armor or have the ability to zoom around the seas at unbelievable speeds and make breakneck turns like they are formula one race cars.

Escorts with better sensors really doesn't matter at this point because I'm not playing "the silent and deep" hiding game with them. I actually want them to detect me. I am playing the hang out just below the surface and daring them close with 1000 yards or less firing range game.

I am even ok with the merchants being reasonably armed for what it was like during WWII. Having them being reasonably accurate as well. But I not looking for a mod that turns the merchant convoys into Surface Attack Groups with similar fire power.

The destroyers are simply doing their duty to the best of their abilities. they will sacrifice themselves in order to save their convoy. Their abilities in stock game are heavily hampered by wind, waves, night, sensors etc. The escorts accelerate like a Ferrari, that's a fact, their fore & aft compartments have battleship armor, that is also a fact. Several attempts have been made (and are in the works as we speak) to correct these totally unrealistic behavior.

Believe me, I also want the unescorted convoys to act like in SH1. They scatter in all directions at flank speed. Depending on their speed, you can't kill'em all. Until you catch up a runner, the others are gone. But there are certain limitations to what can be modded in SH4.

The destroyer behavior, however, has been vastly improved. Many people here recommend you to play TMO. That's because TMO has very challenging escorts modelled. They're real killers. If you decide to treat them like the stock ones, you're dead. That's DEAD!

Your comment "protected by only 4 DDs" makes me wonder why you still haven't tried one of the mods that makes them behave much more realistically. They're supposed to hunt and kill us, not the opposite. We're supposed to avoid them as hell, not provoking them.

If you stay at periscope depth while been chased by a TMO destroyer, it will kill you with the first pass. If you try to provoke it, it will chase you, find you, avoid your torpedoes and kill you with the first pass. If you engage it while surfaced, it will blow you up. When you'll decide to submerge after being damaged, just in case you might survive, it will kill you with the first pass before you reach your crash depth. If you do reach crash depth, the water pressure will kill you. So what leaves? To use your brain and your evasive abilities to escape.

A TMO destroyer will force you to respect it as an opponent, develop strategies to evade it and think twice before engaging an escorted convoy in clear weather, daytime, in swallow water etc. Even if it's escorted by "only 4 destroyers".:yep:

Please, do yourself a favor and try a mod. I'm sure it will make your gaming experience much better.:up:

Regards,
Billy.

[Rockin Robbins]

Isn't it great that for a 2007 game we have an old mod, TMO 2.5, Bleiente's Mod Soup and soon FOTRS Ultimate, which will all handle this problem very nicely! Lots of options and all good solutions. And I have to include RSRDC in there too because it gives entirely different escort behavior than the other options.

[Rockin Robbins]

I understand some chumps, one of whom might be a participant in this thread:D:D, think that Silent Hunter 4 is too @#$% easy.

Well I just got back from a research session with Fall of the Rising Sun Ultimate and found something that might just curl your toes. So what do destroyers do? Drop depth charges off the stern and try not to blow their own propellers off?

NOT ANY MORE! (https://youtu.be/fLzLu618Kzc) In FOTRS Ultimate these guys will toss two ash cans a hundred feet to the port and two ash cans a hunderd feet to starboard, while they toss two more a hundred feet astern. This means they can go over you nice and slow without blowing up their own boat. And it means they can slowly and methodically fill a swath 200' wide full of death. Your death, buddy.

Let the real war begin. FOTRS Ultimate coming soon to a Subsim near you!:arrgh!::arrgh!::arrgh!::rotfl2:

[Majestik 909]

I guess I must really suck at this game. With manual targeting even in the stock game I wouldn't openly go looking for destroyers or hang around to take them on.


That's just my game...

[Rockin Robbins]

The strength of Silent Hunter 4 is that it can be customized to play any way you want. If Majestic has fun sinking easy opponents, and he does:D:D it's a celebration of the adaptability of the game that he is able to do so.

I like it difficult. But sometimes I load up Slightly Subnuclear Mark 14 and Cutie, along with Slightly Subnuclear Guns and wreck havoc on fully TMO enemies on a level much greater than Majestic's. I've bagged 150,000 tons in ten minutes and it's fun!

Thanks to JSGME in seconds with two clicks I can remove the Slightly Subnuclear weaponry and resume being the hunted searching for an opportunity to become the hunter for 30 seconds, whereupon I immediately become the REALLY hunted, where down the throat shots from 400 yards are a 50-50 proposition at best, where 100 deck gun hits might not sink the merchie but they're armed with deadly accuracy and a much better gun platform who only needs to tag me once and I'm dead.

And that's realistic. Here's a sub which returned to port with a skeleton crew disobeying orders to scuttle and traveling a thousand miles back to Australia on the surface (unable to dive). One hit. They were lucky. They even got to keep their jobs after disobeying orders from Admiral Christie.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/shell.jpg

Here I am bagging 103,000 tons (https://youtu.be/o3upMQBo1m4) before dying gloriously, a victim of the deadly merchie gunners of the Convoy from Hell!

[Majestik 909]

Actually it is the exact opposite. When you come upon a large convoy with dozens of merchants that are protected by only 4 DDs, it is much easier just to kill the dogs first, then you can kill the sheep at your leisure.

Only takes 4 torps to clear out the DDs. Then you can surface and use your deck gun to sink all the merchants and save your torps for better targets like Task Force carrier or BB.

Hmmmmm....I have sank quite a few escorts, but in favor of tonnage and available ordnance, I take steps to avoid them. When I am forced to engage an escort, I do so from dead-ahead, torpedoes set to magnetic, and firing at just under 400 meters. Keep in mind that with external torpedo stores, one must discharge ordnance in wise fashion.

Our last patrol lasted from June of 1943 until March 1944, during which time we sank 65 vessels. I stay close to air support (for tracking) and either a resupply tender or base whenever possible.

I have found that, when stalking a convoy, I find great success by manuervering into a position, roughly 45 degrees off the lead ships bow, between it and the lead escort. In this position, the convoy closes upon you very rapidly. I fire torpedoes at the furthest targets first, generally at a range of about 1,300 meters and firing at the closest targets last. This strategy creates hits in rapid succession with little time for targets to take evasive action.

From a position in the midst of the group, I will engage any target of opportunity with stern tubes. Now, I will either hide alongside/below a damaged target, and reload, or simply dive deep and creep away.

I always attack convoys from the front as our slow submerged speed makes it difficult to " sneak up from behind." Surface attacks with deck gun is risky, as Q-ships can quickly destroy your boat. Also beware that a burning, sinking boat can and will open fire upon you with amazing ferocity.

It is possible to strike with economy of movement and ordnance, in the midst of a group of escorts, sink most targets in the group and creep away unscathed.

I believe this a wise approach as it yields far greater tonnage.

R.H.v.H - U-847

[Majestik 909]

RR,

Which sub was that with the 8" hole?

[Rockin Robbins]

I remember how I read about it, on the "Remember This" section of one of the WWII Sub Vets' web page. It's not active now. I'll have to look through "Silent Victory" and other books I have to try to find that information again.

I did post about it here on Subsim, probably in 2008 or 2009. Stand by while I research!

I got lucky. A copy of Paul Wittmer's website was still on the Wayback Machine and I already had a copy downloaded to my computer as I knew Paul couldn't live much longer when I found his site in 2008.http://web.archive.org/web/20040925132229/http://www.ussubvetsofworldwarii.org/RememberIndex.html

It was the USS Bergall. Here's the text from Paul Wittmer's Remember Index:

REMEMBER THIS USS BERGALL?
On the evening of Dec. 13, 1944 as Bergall (Hyde) was preparing to plant mines off Indo-China, she picked up a distant radar contact. Closing to 26,000 yards, the contact was tentatively identified as 2 cruisers, later determined to be a cruiser and destroyer escort. After attaining a firing position 3300 yards away from the overlapping targets, six bow tubes were fired. Moments later a tremendous explosion occurred, seemingly, breaking the Imperial Japanese heavy Myoku in two. Hauling clear to reload when the escort seemed reluctant to attack, Bergalll charged in for a second attack when, at 9000 yards, the escorting destroyer opened fire, one shell landing in Bergall's wake, another directly into her forward torpedo loading hatch, opening a large hole in her pressure hull. Retreating at full speed. Bergall hauled clear only to find that the damage was beyond repair at the scene, 2000 miles from the nearest friendly port, Ex- mouth Gulf, Australia. When reporting the problem to Admiral Christie Cdr. Hyde was ordered to rendezvous with Angler, Bashaw and Paddle, remove the crew and destroy Bergall. After carefully reviewing the situation, Cdr. Hyde decided to disobey this order and try to take Bergall home through Karimata, the Java Sea and Lombok on the surface. He removed one officer and 54 men to the Angler, destroyed all confidential gear, set demolition charges by her torpedoes and mines and got underway for Exmouth Gulf, Angler following closely, standing by to remove personnel from Bergall if danger threatened. Five days later, they arrived at Exmouth Bay on 20 December 1944.


That is the boat in my photo. They arrived in Australia right at the peak of the Battle of the Bulge in Europe, which stole all the headlines. Today only submariners and crazies like us preserve memories like this.

[Majestik 909]

Amazing!

I once limped home surfaced with too much damage to submerge....

[Majestik 909]

Rock,

I've never had luck attacking at such long ranges. My usual approach will involve attacking the trail in vessels at 1,000 to 1,300 meters and the leading vessels between 400 to 600 Meyers.

I have successfully attacked as close as 253 meters.

The duds are really a pain when you set up for a fast closing shot....

[Wizz]

There were big breakthroughs that made Silent Hunter 3 and 4 successful, but the most important factor is the dynamic campaign, where you can't predict encounters, where you react to what the enemy does and they react to you. RSRDC restores the scripted games that were exactly the reason people were excited about the huge advance between Silent Hunter 2 and Silent Hunter 3! The fact that we celebrate that Silent Hunter 4 can become the failure that was Silent Hunter 2 is just mind blowing to me. The fact that they call a game fossilized into complete immobility "historically accurate" is complete lunacy. A predictable enemy is a defeated enemy. And a complete farce.

By the way, no adaptation of RSRDC will be coming to FOTRS Ultimate.

With the greatest respect to the hard work that went into RSRDC, I completely agree with this comment.

I was a little concerned that FOTRS Ultimate might follow a similar path, and it is really reassuring to hear that the dynamic nature of the campaign will be retained. Can't wait for Ultimate!

[max-peck]

No worries Wizz - Rockin Robins is keeping it random :up:

[TheGreatElector]

I increase the depthcharge sink speed, and blast damage/radius values with a crush depth between 200-250m. I usually survive just a few patrols. I'm a sh3 player though, because enemy radar/air cover is a very nice challenge.

Another thing you could do is tweaking/modding the AI sensors.

Have you ever tried SH3 NYGM?



Try downloading TMO2.5 it makes stuff a bit more realistic. it can be found here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//downloads.php?do=file&id=3001