Attacking convoys - "Thrill factor" only?

[Benzin1973]

I used to think that the main reasons for taking the risk of attacking convoys (namely Escorted convoys) were:
A) The juiciest targets were in convoys.
B) The "Thrill/Excitement" factor, you know, the excitement of it being dangerous due to the convoys escorts.

But lately i have encountered some very tasty targets traveling solo, empire freighters, large merchants, all sorts of fat targets from C2/medium cargo and upwards. It seems to me that the trick to finding these tasties is just knowing where to look.
So i guess this takes previous reason "A" out.

On the other hand, hitting a convoy is obviously more dangerous, they are escorted, some of the targets have guns, etc. and i hear that late war (i havent been there yet) convoys are nearly suicide.
Not to mention that attacking convoys sometimes doesnt allow me to get in ideal firing positions (e.g. 90º on their port/starboard 1.5k away), hence im more likely to miss.

So i guess the only reason is "B"? Do we only go risk our lives against a convoy for the "thrills", or is there another reason?

Reading about how hard it gets starting 1942 with GWX makes me cross myself hehe, and since my main responsability is keeping my crew alive (including myself), and assuming it really is as hard & dangerous as i read it is, i think i will give up convoys once i hit "the 1942 wall".

[Von Due]

I would imagine many players choose convoys when they want to play it historically as convoy hunting was a huge part of it. Thrill is definitely there and if you can successfully attack a convoy from '43 and onwards, and survive, you have achieved quite a lot in this game.

[bstanko6]

Von Due is right. If you were a real simmer, that yearned for realism, then you would know that Doenitz would not be pleased with only attacking single shipping. You would be given court martial for being a coward.

[Aquelarrefox]

no, thats too much. Many deads by hunting to hang someone for dont serch convoys.

foward, to complicated find sone ships after middle of war. If they spot good target as grosser armed merchant, they hit it. go great tonelage or operational advantage as supplys.

[Benzin1973]

Maybe im worrying too much about something i havent really experienced yet.
Im only on late 1940, so i dont really know how hard it is (or isnt) to hit a convoy in 1943. I will give it a try once i get there. so far 1940 convoys are not hard at all, even task force ones.

About "being hanged" for not attacking convoys, if i return to port with a record of 24000 tons of ships sunk, i dont understand why would Donitz be so "upset". I think 24000 tons is 24000 tons, i dont see what relevance would it have it they were travling alone or in group. Provided i wasnt ordered to sink a specific target travling in a convoy of course.

This is slightly off topic but, As for being a "true simmer" or not, ("simmer" as in i dont use time compression and actually wait 49 hours to travel, and put on my captain outfit to play), thats easy. Im not.

I find that "truly simulating" something that happened over 70 years ago, in the other side of the world, with people from other countries, in the middle of the ocean on a metal boat, during war, under life or death conditions, while sitting in front of my computer in my home, is not very viable.
So i dont worry too much about "simulating" it.
Instead I enjoy playing this game wich is based on historical events to have fun. and dont take it dead-seriously.

[Mittelwaechter]

The job was to sink as many freighters as possible - as efficiently as possible.

A flock of targets close together, a few attack runs and then back to base to reload and come back for the next convoy. Demoralize the English toper in London!

Searching single freighters takes more time, uses more resources, exposes the U-boot to aircraft attacks.

In the game it is pretty simple to sneak up a single helpless freighter and shoot it unseen. The joy of excitement comes with an opponent able to fight back.

In '43 it takes some skill to survive - and the FAT are fun.

[Benzin1973]

The job was to sink as many freighters as possible - as efficiently as possible.

A flock of targets close together, a few attack runs and then back to base to reload and come back for the next convoy. Demoralize the English toper in London!

Searching single freighters takes more time, uses more resources, exposes the U-boot to aircraft attacks.

In the game it is pretty simple to sneak up a single helpless freighter and shoot it unseen. The joy of excitement comes with an opponent able to fight back.

In '43 it takes some skill to survive - and the FAT are fun.Yes that makes perfect sense. Up to the point in time i am now (Nov. 1941), one convoy attack yields two large ships sunk in relatively little time, and escaping is relatively easy (provided i did things right). This is efficient indeed.

But what about in say 1943? from what ibe read here (and maybe those were gross exagerations?), "attacking a convoy is almost suicide!" as in, most likely you will end up dead. From an efficiency point of view, an uboat taking more time attacking lone ships, is more efficient than an lost uboat filled with corpses on the bottom of the sea! hehe
From a historical point of view, lets not forget uboat many times attacked convoys in "packs" wich sadly is something we cant do here. :(


From a having more fun point of view... Absolutely!. Targeting lone freighters was a ton of fun for me back when the main challenge was actually hitting it, doing the plotting correctly, obtaining accurate data for the TDC, learning to manouver to a good position, after all that efford seeing that torpedo hit the target was the thrill in itself!

But now that i have more experience and manage to hit my targets most of the time, plotting and punching numbers in the TDC is almost routine, it does get old. In fact the most fun ibe had so far in SH3, was the time i took an aircraft carrier from a task force.

So i guess the answer to my question is:
A) Yep, mostly because its more fun (thrill factor)
B) its more historicaly accurate.

Now im very curious to see those 1943 convoys!

[bstanko6]

You misunderstand me. You are right about tonnage is tonnage. But what kind of tonnage was important. think about logistics. A convoy consists of tanks, machine parts, oil, ammunition, guns, troops, and explosives. You won't find that on a single merchant ship. Convoys protected these resources.

If you just want to sink ships and not play out the real reason the uboat exists, then that is a personal preference.

Seek out the convoys my friend! You fight for the Fatherland!

[Benzin1973]

You misunderstand me. You are right about tonnage is tonnage. But what kind of tonnage was important. think about logistics. A convoy consists of tanks, machine parts, oil, ammunition, guns, troops, and explosives. You won't find that on a single merchant ship. Convoys protected these resources.

If you just want to sink ships and not play out the real reason the uboat exists, then that is a personal preference.

Seek out the convoys my friend! You fight for the Fatherland!Good point on the quality of tonnage! It makes sense that the most important cargo was the one guarded on convoys.

I will continue to attack those convoys, only if it gets too hard for me to handle later in the war, will i consider only attacking lone ships, or improving/adjusting my tactics.
And besides, allways attacking lone merchants gets boring, we need the thrill to keep the fun!
fur das fatherland! :Kaleun_Salute:

[Sailor Steve]

If the game itself was realistic there would be fewer and fewer lone ships as the war goes on, for the very reasons mentioned. Early in the war merchant captains didn't like being tied to other ships, didn't like following orders, and felt their chances were better travelling alone. As the war progressed they came to realize the advantages of travelling in a group and that, while they might be less likely to encounter a u-boat when alone they were at much greater risk if they did..

[Aquelarrefox]

well but in general find lones ships is complicate far away from englad (by south or south) or us coast even in gwx or wac. mybe more traffic than historicly but its hard to find for example lone ships infront of dakar. you dont symply go and they are not there walking as kongolenses in belgian party.

[rudewarrior]

You misunderstand me. You are right about tonnage is tonnage. But what kind of tonnage was important. think about logistics. A convoy consists of tanks, machine parts, oil, ammunition, guns, troops, and explosives. You won't find that on a single merchant ship. Convoys protected these resources.

If you just want to sink ships and not play out the real reason the uboat exists, then that is a personal preference.

Seek out the convoys my friend! You fight for the Fatherland!

I'd like to second this. The highest priority ships were tankers. And you really don't find those floating solo. :yep:

[bstanko6]

Rudewarrior, could you imagine being a sailor on a tanker in that time? My god, every night would be a nightmare, not knowing when that torp was coming!

[blackswan40]

Hi Guys check this out the world at war Documentary Wolfpacks
A Great Watch Enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE3hDbqJaWc

Hi Guys check this out the world at war Documentary Wolfpacks
A Great Watch Enjoy

1940 -1941 Convoys 30-40 Merchants 4-5 Escorts

The Atlantic Treacherous Enough in Peace Time in Time of war Black With Menace

These Escorts did not have elite crews a Clemson/Town Class USN WW1 Destroyer
Lease Lend Destroyer deal had a crew of 146 the Captain transferred from the
Merchant Navy two other Officers Canadians and their sea going experience was
crossing the Atlantic and all the rest of the crew retired navy recalled or Civilians called up
so at best the crews were untrained and lacked experience the other escorts would be Corvettes
with a crew of 85 with same class of crew also between the wars convoy defence was neglected
when a Uboat wolfpack attacks at night in a partly cloudy moonlit night the moon at the back of the convoy
silhouetting the merchant ships the Uboats are in the darkness picking targets while penetrating the very thin
escort screen this would be the norm and would last 3-7 days day attacks night attacks also you would have
Fokkerwolf 290 condors Searching for Convoys & keeping Contact of the Convoy the Germans held all the Aces
The Germans Call this the Happy Time

In the winter months when the rough seas came in to your ship and put the galley fires out you could not cook
anything hot so your food at meal times was served cold corned beef and dog biscuits this food was known as Hard Tack
imagine living on that two to three weeks

The Battle of the Atlantic Tragedy

of the 180,000 Men of the Merchant Navy 60,000 Died though petty grievances squabbles by senior commanders
of Coastal Command Royal Airforce and Royal Navy Commanders so men suffered from the Uboat peril a lack cooperation
a lack of training and the Sea

[bstanko6]

Thanks Blackswan.

[rudewarrior]

Rudewarrior, could you imagine being a sailor on a tanker in that time? My god, every night would be a nightmare, not knowing when that torp was coming!

It is a curious trade-off. Would you rather be on a tanker in the center of a convoy, supposedly more protected, or would you rather be on a small freighter on the outer edge, being a less juicy target that is easier to attack?

I'd think the worst was the 2nd night. The first night the attacks come, but they just happen without warning. After making it through the night, the convoy reforms during the day and more u-boats come. You go all through the day with nothing happening, then you watch the sunset, knowing the wolf pack is coming and realizing that sunset might be the last you ever see...

:huh:

[Sailor Steve]

It's been a year or more. Sounds like it's the time and place to post this again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO_drlO5vSU

[Benzin1973]

It's been a year or more. Sounds like it's the time and place to post this again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO_drlO5vSU
Outstanding song & video! Sailor Steve.

[Coldcall]

Von Due is right. If you were a real simmer, that yearned for realism, then you would know that Doenitz would not be pleased with only attacking single shipping. You would be given court martial for being a coward.

Not sure about that. Doenitz wanted to show the wolfpack strategy worked, with first sub spotter just showing while other uboats arrive on scene. However he loved his ace captains so if you were an ace hitting single ships then I dont think he would have court marshalled you :D

[bstanko6]

I was just making a point that the U-Boot captain had a responsibility from Germany to inflict a logistical blow to Britain. And single merchant shipping was not first priority.

[Benzin1973]

Been playing my last patrol (Jan 1941 now) and ibe realized that if "thrills" is the issue... Forget convoys!
Task groups are the juiciest, most exciting targets this game has to offer.
I just sank the HMS Hood! he was travling as part of a task force in AM27 (i was looking for convoys there). Even after taking a full salvo of four torpedos on his port, he stayed at float for quite a while longer.

The other ships were one (or two?) more battlecruisers, several destroyers and some cruisers. They bombed the living poop out of me for a while, but i managed to evade them :rock:

I bet becoming a "task force" hunter killer uboat is as historical as a chineese man riding a bicycle to the moon to conmemorate the Apollo landings, but i dont care. Task group hunting is the best!
And if Donitz makes a tandrum because i sink carriers and battleships instead of merchants carrying gas, bolts and ore, then he can go get himself another skipper.:rotfl2:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/attachment.php?attachmentid=2012&stc=1&d=1465042808

[Mittelwaechter]

More than often the juicy task forces go fast - 25 to 35 knots. The slow ones are a few destroyers and an auxillary carrier/cruiser or maybe a Dido or two. Your U-Boot is not made for this (too slow) and if you are after the battle ships, some harbour raiding like Prien in Scapa Flow may be a kick.
Otherwise you would spend your time with wasting diesel for searching fast ghosts in the Western Approaches - or as a sitting duck in hope for the chance along the British east coast to catch a piece of the Home Fleet sailing down south.
It's fun right now and you should enjoy it - but ingame it's just a little cherry on top of the convoy cake.
Doenitz would have asked you what the heck you were doing out there - coming home with empty fuel but fully armed regularly.
No court marshalling - but an adequate job in the U-Boot broom supply chamber.

Do as ordered - but milk the opportunity.

Or hunt those Rodneys and King Georges! It's just a game to entertain you...

[bstanko6]

Just a game?!?!

How dare you sir!

[Rambler241]

I disagree with quite a lot of what's been said so far on this thread. For instance - bstanko6 said:
Von Due is right. If you were a real simmer, that yearned for realism, then you would know that Doenitz would not be pleased with only attacking single shipping. You would be given court martial for being a coward.
- that's rubbish. The aim in warfare is to prevent the enemy doing what he wants to do, by whatever means. Every enemy ship sunk or seriously damaged is a small part of achieving that aim. Court-marshalled for sinking enemy ships because they weren't part of a convoy? Words fail me.

bstanko6 replied to Von Due, who said
I would imagine many players choose convoys when they want to play it historically as convoy hunting was a huge part of it. Thrill is definitely there and if you can successfully attack a convoy from '43 and onwards, and survive, you have achieved quite a lot in this game.
- no, history shows that most ships sunk in the early years of the war were loners, and many in the later years were too.

Mittelwaechter had it right when he said
The job was to sink as many freighters as possible - as efficiently as possible.

- though I disagree about "efficiently".

bstanko6 was also wrong when he said later:
You misunderstand me. You are right about tonnage is tonnage. But what kind of tonnage was important. think about logistics. A convoy consists of tanks, machine parts, oil, ammunition, guns, troops, and explosives. You won't find that on a single merchant ship. Convoys protected these resources.

If you just want to sink ships and not play out the real reason the uboat exists, then that is a personal preference.
- and lone merchants carried food. Britain as a whole was afraid of being starved into submission, even after the USA entered the war in '41. They also carried rare minerals (essential for steel production, magnets, etc.), agricultural machinery, ball bearings, aircraft and engine parts, and other essentials too numerous to mention. If they travelled the seas, they were carrying essential cargoes.

Sailor Steve's comment was accurate:
If the game itself was realistic there would be fewer and fewer lone ships as the war goes on, for the very reasons mentioned. Early in the war merchant captains didn't like being tied to other ships, didn't like following orders, and felt their chances were better travelling alone. As the war progressed they came to realize the advantages of travelling in a group and that, while they might be less likely to encounter a u-boat when alone they were at much greater risk if they did..

- indeed. Even unescorted convoys made sense. The odds of a Uboat finding a convoy on the vast ocean are no more than finding a lone ship. That was the main reason for the convoy system. Escort protection, to make it more difficult for Uboats to attack, and with the added chance of damaging or destroying one or more Uboats, was a bonus.

I'm a Uboat commander, and I and my crew sink enemy shipping. Message ends.

[Von Due]

...

Well, I don't fancy an ongoing debate over this but, I don't recall saying most ships sunk were part of a convoy. What I did say was that convoy hunting was a huge part of it, which it was. Wolfpacks were spead out to catch convoys. If they got single ships then they got single ships which would be as good a tonnage as any other tonnage, but the convoys were the big targets they were after. Not just for submarines.

Tirpitz' mission was to intercept and destroy allied convoys enroute to the USSR. Same for Bismarck. Its mission was to hunt convoys in the Atlantic.
It was the threat against the convoys that was the admirals' greatest fear concerning these battleships.

As for more single ships being sunk early in the war then well, how many convoys were there early in the war, compared to the number of convoys later, or for that matter over the entire course of the war?

Anyway, back on topic for me.

[ivanov.ruslan]

I think in the middle of war have sunk pretty lonely ships
Mean the operations around US east coast

[Benzin1973]

More than often the juicy task forces go fast - 25 to 35 knots. The slow ones are a few destroyers and an auxillary carrier/cruiser or maybe a Dido or two. Your U-Boot is not made for this (too slow) and if you are after the battle ships, some harbour raiding like Prien in Scapa Flow may be a kick.
Otherwise you would spend your time with wasting diesel for searching fast ghosts in the Western Approaches - or as a sitting duck in hope for the chance along the British east coast to catch a piece of the Home Fleet sailing down south.
It's fun right now and you should enjoy it - but ingame it's just a little cherry on top of the convoy cake.
Doenitz would have asked you what the heck you were doing out there - coming home with empty fuel but fully armed regularly.
No court marshalling - but an adequate job in the U-Boot broom supply chamber.

Do as ordered - but milk the opportunity.

Or hunt those Rodneys and King Georges! It's just a game to entertain you...Yes, i recon their speed is a serious problem. This last one was going 24 knots. I dint have much trouble intercepting it because when the report came they were practically coming my way, so i just had to make a 90º turn to my port and i was on intercept course. But had they been going away from me, i would have never catch them.

It was quite thrilling to intercept them, Once i came in visual range (it was still night) i only had a few minutes to plot their exact course, get their speed, ID them, get AOB, etc.
And, truth be told, i managed to get all four torpedos on him because he was about 1300m when i fired, and the torps still hit him off center, close to his aft. Had he been say, 2500m out, i would have likely missed!
It was a lot harder to hit than the carrier i got from the previous task force. But then that carrier was going 8 knots IIRC.

[Benzin1973]

While we are on the subject of convoys, Can anyone recommend a good tutorial on how to properly/efficiently intercept them?

I have no trouble plotting the intercept course to intercept their path (long range), but once i get near to them, i allways seem to have problems finding a good attack angle/position. The juicy targets (tankers/large cargo) are allways on the center rows, so my usual "90º perpendicular" position doesnt work properly since the outer ships block them. Not to mention their side escorts!

What i try to do is get about 45º off their center in front of them, and not attack 90º perpendicular (on their side) but rather from the front/side. Is this the proper way? or maybe i should try to get inside the lanes?

[Leoz]

Benzin brought up a really great topic.

I would consider myself (now anyway) good at what to do so as to at least get one ship out of a convoy.

However, I only go do it as I think it is my "duty" to not shirk an opportunity to hit a convoy.

The free time that I do get for this game I think... oh good just want some single ships. And, if an opportunity for a convoy comes it changes things; hey, I just wanted an easy Saturday afternoon, now I will have to engage in extensive problem solving.

Good point about 1942. Playing the game, a shocker how I started a transition of feeling safe to always being in the crouch.... trying to survive. Hey those aircraft really don't like me...:o

Yeah it is just a game.... but love the details.

[bstanko6]

What I do is calculate convoy course. I zip ahead as far forward as possible in front of the lead escort. When ready, I turn around and head straight for that escort flank speed. At around 6500 meters I dive. I keep my bow pointed at that escort until eventually my bow is pointed in the direction for my attack. I get past that lead destroyer and set up for a field day!

[anggono]

...

...The juicy targets (tankers/large cargo) are allways on the center rows, so my usual "90º perpendicular" position doesnt work properly since the outer ships block them. Not to mention their side escorts!

What i try to do is get about 45º off their center in front of them, and not attack 90º perpendicular (on their side) but rather from the front/side. Is this the proper way? or maybe i should try to get inside the lanes?

For a 5-column convoy normally the fattest ship sails in column 2 and 4, normally row 2 and 3. If there is a light cruiser sailing along normally you'll find it in column 3 row 2.

I read somewhere that happens to be the way they organize convoy out of Halifax, historically correct so to say.

[Coldcall]

Best thing about the convoys is usually there are some big tonnage ships so if all works out correctly one can bag 20k tons with easy work, especially early in the war.

But i prefer finding the task forces with big warships. Sinking a renown class, or Southampton class just feels more satisfactory than piddly merchants. I dont even bother with passenger/cargo ships as it feels a bit sneaky to sink them. Anything smaller than a medium sized cargo i just deck gun if the weather permits and there are no escorts around. Save those torps for the biggies!

[20000 Leagues]

While we are on the subject of convoys, Can anyone recommend a good tutorial on how to properly/efficiently intercept them?

I have no trouble plotting the intercept course to intercept their path (long range), but once i get near to them, i allways seem to have problems finding a good attack angle/position. The juicy targets (tankers/large cargo) are allways on the center rows, so my usual "90º perpendicular" position doesnt work properly since the outer ships block them. Not to mention their side escorts!

What I try to do is get about 45º off their center in front of them, and not attack 90º perpendicular (on their side) but rather from the front/side. Is this the proper way? or maybe i should try to get inside the lanes?

There is no singularly correct way to do this. I've seen different skippers go about it in various ways while achieving similar results. You will eventually develop your own style of attack. With that said, there are some tactics that most of us employ. Plotting a course to get ahead of the convoy is popular and it's because it let's you determine where and when the attack will occur. This is a great advantage. Once you're ahead of the convoy you have a lot of choices. There are times I will position the boat to attack from one of the flanks. I like this because it allows me to time my eels to penetrate the middle of the convoy and hit targets almost simultaneously. My personal method is to hit at least three large ships in the middle with one eel each. It rarely sinks them, but it slows them down and separates them from the convoy. That allows me to reload and feast at my leisure.

Another tactic (that I don't recommend unless you're experienced at evading persistent escorts) is to float quietly until you find yourself almost in the middle of the convoy. Now you have targets for your bow and stern tubes. This requires some on the fly, fast calculations. The targets are close, but moving and your 90° angles will evaporate quickly. Especially once you hit a target. The convoy will start to zig zag. That's another reason I like to hit multiple targets with one eel each. Once they realise you're there, all hell will break loose.

One tactic I sometimes use has caused some debate among "simmers". My skippers tend to be somewhat cavalier if you will. I position the boat ahead or on a flank of the convoy while surfaced and make sure I attract their attention. Once I start seeing shells hitting the water and escorts heading my way, I submerge to periscope depth. I determine the closest escort, plot a course to meet it bow to bow and steam ahead full. This may sound crazy, but the escort isn't expecting the boat to be steaming toward them. I let the escort come in nice and close, typically around 600 to 500m, and I let an eel loose on magnetic setting. I've gotten pretty good at getting successful hits with this. Still, sometimes I miss or the eel is a dud. When that happens, it's time to dance. A little foot work and I line up a stern shot as fast as I can. If you can't put the escort down quickly, you'll find your dance card fills up fast. If all goes well, I line the next closest escort up, rinse and repeat.

The debate here is some skippers argue that it's about tonnage and escorts don't carry supplies or weigh much. They also say boats weren't designed, nor are they suited to hunt escorts. That's all true. However; during the real war, the allies didn't have an endless supply of escorts like the game does. So in my war, I like to retire a few escorts.

[Benzin1973]

Thanks for your ideas & suggestions guys!
I will give them a try.
So far what i been doing with decent results, is standard perpendicular stand still on the convoys path, choose two juicy targets, sink them and go 230 deep, FAST!

I originally had trouble because i wanted to try and shoot at 3 or 4 diferent ships in one attack, wich resulted in making hasty solutions, misses, etc.

Now i ONLY target two ships (sometimes only one), hit it, escape, shadow the convoy and strike again. I rinse & repeat untill i run out of torpedos, or the convoy has reached an innapropiate place (like shallow waters).

[Aquelarrefox]

playing in real navigation and no contacts, you should use the tactic aviable for every time, becose its complex to have a good position.

I always try to get infront the convoy at 20 and rise into it in silent running, posible stoped. (i use the polish fix for ai sensor to make more real becose you are harder to hear by hydrophones but when they start to ping you are in the hell! This is more real becose they get hard to detect to into convoy if they dont see your periscope)

many times you dont get into, and have to atack by flank. in that case i attack only first raw until 90 to get more stright run torpedos and if i have time in night i could try to get more close ship in second raw. i wait first explotion and i go downquickly very slow. if theres scolts, i try to get on tail until go down. i prefer get 2 secure hit and not lose torpedoes, and when i rise after the hunt, serch bby hydro the hitted dhips to get they down if the inintial hit wasnt enought.

when im to late to get into a position for G7e TII, during day, i noly get to hit a destroyer and go down.

never attack a convoy in shalow waters nor heavy storm.