No way I hit a destroyer

[VIPer530]

Hi everyone,

I'm on my 2nd patrol, so I still consider myself quite green.
I'm using TMO with maximum realistic settings, no other mods.

Anyway, I found a single destroyer, Mutsuki or whatever the name was, or well, I think he rather found me. After playing defence for about 2 hours I managed to escape undamaged, and I felt like playing offence for a change.
Let's not discuss if that was a good call, the point is:

The weather is perfect, clear sky, noon, no wind. Perfect conditions to spot incoming torpedos. Under these conditions there is literally NO WAY I can hit the destroyer with a single torpedo or a spread of two torpedos.
The propblem is not that I wouldn't hit, neither am I getting duds, he simply evades every bullet I fire.
Is he one of these matrix guys?

Joking aside...
I saved the game and then ran a series of attempts from the following position: I'm at periscope depth, roughly 2100 yards off his starboard side, pretty much exactly at his 090. He's at a dead stop, firing flares (hell knows why, in the middle of the day...).
I fire at the centre of his ship... he accelerates, I miss astern.
I fire at his bow... he accelerates, I miss astern.
I fire at the tip of his bow... he accelerates, I miss astern.
I fire at a point ahead of him... you can guess it...

So, no way I can hit with just one torpedo. Allright, let's use two.
I fire one at his ship, the second one 2 degrees ahead of him... He accelerates, torpedo with the 2 degrees lead misses astern.
Second one with 3 degrees lead... He accelerates earlies, I miss astern.
I could continue... So whatever I do, he acts against the torpedo that is the most demanding for him in terms of acceleration.
It also does not matter which one I fire first. He will always react just in time to evade the one that's most "in front" with respect to his course.
If I give the second one too much of a lead, he will accelerate much later, then the first will miss astern, and the second one will pass him on his bow.

My distance to him also has no impact. I ran another trial and I could not hit him from < 700 yards! I haven't tried salvoes with more than 2 torpedos yet, but I would guess I get the same result.

Sooooo, question: Is there a way to hit (other than perhaps pure luck) in these weather and daylight conditions and am I just too stupid to figure it out? Or is it, the way the AI is programmed, just an extremely stupid idea to attack him at all?

Thanks for your opinions and / or support!

[Crannogman]

Open range to 8500 yards, engage with deck gun.

Seriously though, try using more torpedoes. A 3-4 fish spread seems to be the minimum for success. You're actually in luck, if he's stopped you don't have to waste any shots behind him (a moving ship you would have to allow for him slowing down). You could also figure out his length and then do some trig to figure the max spread angle that allows you place a torpedo every hull length for some distance. You should definitely be able to hit him with no more than 3 torps at 700y.

Edit: per my iPhone calculations, a mutsuki takes up 2.7 degrees at 2100y and 8.5 degrees at 700y, so that should be your spread. Or you can measure it with your periscope, but that may vary with your mod

[Sailor Steve]

What we used to do with SH1: Go to flank speed. Raise your periscope (which they couldn't do in real life - too much vibration). Run away. He'll see your scope and chase you. Fire a stern tube at about 750 yards. He can't evade, especially if it's under his keel and magnetic. Go deep and turn, just in case.

Not realistic at all, but works most of the time.

[Rockin Robbins]

What we used to do with SH1: Go to flank speed. Raise your periscope (which they couldn't do in real life - too much vibration). Run away. He'll see your scope and chase you. Fire a stern tube at about 750 yards. He can't evade, especially if it's under his keel and magnetic. Go deep and turn, just in case.

Not realistic at all, but works most of the time.
Even at that I find that a shot at 750 yards in the running away down the throat configuration, the DD just jukes to the side and you miss. If you wait until the range is under 500 yards your hit rate goes to about 70%.

Now the fun part! Set the torpedo to run on the surface and hit the DD on the nose and a game bug that makes that section nearly invincible causes big explosion with the DD just continuing on unhindered most of the time. Set it deeper than that and on magnetic and the magnetic sensor doesn't work and/or the torp runs deep and no boom!

You're best off setting on the surface with magnetic sensor on in case it runs deep.

You can increase hit percentage by shooting a spread but three torpedoes in exchange for less than 1900 tons is a terrible exchange of risk for reward. I only fire one torp at a time at escorts.

[Crannogman]

Even at that I find that a shot at 750 yards in the running away down the throat configuration, the DD just jukes to the side and you miss. If you wait until the range is under 500 yards your hit rate goes to about 70%.

Now the fun part! Set the torpedo to run on the surface and hit the DD on the nose and a game bug that makes that section nearly invincible causes big explosion with the DD just continuing on unhindered most of the time. Set it deeper than that and on magnetic and the magnetic sensor doesn't work and/or the torp runs deep and no boom!

You're best off setting on the surface with magnetic sensor on in case it runs deep.

You can increase hit percentage by shooting a spread but three torpedoes in exchange for less than 1900 tons is a terrible exchange of risk for reward. I only fire one torp at a time at escorts.

Pretty much. The final lesson is that this destroyer is not worth your time or torpedoes

[lukterran]

Destroyers are really hard to hit in the stock, they are normally not worth wasting torps on. Just avoid them. In the game their movement and physics aren't simulated correctly, so they have the ability to dodge and speed up and slow down in reaction to your incoming torpedoes. In stock I was only able to kill them with torps by trapping them within a spread normally 3 torps fired in a spread. One to each side and one in the center will force them to take one hit if you have a good solution and are in close enough.

I would suggesting either using a mod like Ship’s Acceleration Physics or OTC or some other mod that corrects for the race car maneuverability of the escorts.

Another less realistic way to take out the escorts is just to kill them running on the surface using your deck gun. Engage at range (4500-8500), run at full speed away from them and target the forward guns. They will close in one your position but it normally only takes a few hits to sink them (have good crew members with the best gunnery skills at the deck gun).

[Bleiente]

Check out these topics
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=212788
and
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=215710

greetings :arrgh!:

[Rockin Robbins]

Those still don't address the instant maneuverability that allows a down the throat shot from 450 yards to miss 30% of the time. And they don't address the impregnable beak on those destroyers either.

Now, in the stock game, if you're being hunted by two destroyers, their strategy is usually that one actively seeks while the other stops to listen. You can be very effective at shooting the stopped one if visibility conditions are not ideal. I've sunk several who were entirely unaware of my shot.

[VIPer530]

Thanks for all your ideas and opinions!

I agree, 3 torps for a lonely Mutsuki, nope, not a smart move. But...
... this has become personal! :stare:

Ok, it might be fairly easy to hit him in worse weather conditions, but unfortunately, the weather is just perfect (for him).
So, well, I tried salvoes with 3 torpedos - no success so far. 650 yards, he's still at a dead stop, zero hits in dozens of attempts. No matter where I place the 3, he always seems to find the gap. The problem now is that I can't say exactly whether I miss him on one side or the other.

So... is there a way to enable the free cam in a running patrol? I know that would be cheating, but at this point I just want to understand what happens out there.

Beyond all this, are the ship physics actually simulated that terribly? I mean, it's quite hard to believe. Someone spent that much time to craete a fantastic mod like TMO, modfied the AI, but physics are not even close to reality? I have to admit, the idea is frustrating. Effectively that means, as long as they don't spot my torpedos, the game is more or less realistic, as soon as they did, realism is down the drain???

[VIPer530]

Can any of the modders here maybe help me with that?
Any way to, in a running campaign, while being on patrol, enable the free cam?
I can't even find the files that contain my saved games (I hoped to find a flag for cam enabling there)...

Thanks!

[Sniper297]

Q key to open outer doors on torpedo tubes, make sure all tubes are open early in the attack. The game has a serious flaw right there, if the outer doors are not open when you fire, it will (1) automatically open the doors for you, (2) wait several seconds while the door opens, and (3) shoot the torpedo USING THE GYRO SETTINGS WHICH WERE VALID WHEN YOU HIT THE FIRE BUTTON.

That lag guarantees a miss astern simply because at the moment of firing the TDC is aiming at where the target was, not where it is now.

I can't stress this enough, it's the most common cause of misses by new players. Always hit the Q key and check the outer doors are open at least 5 seconds before firing, or your TDC data will use an outdated firing solution.

[VIPer530]

Thanks for this hint, but, my tubes ARE open.

Seriously, I can't hit him with 4 torps.
I go as far as firing the 1st one 5 deg ahead of him, so in fact, he could evade them by just keep sitting there.
2nd one with 10 deg offset, 3rd with 15 deg, 4th with 20 deg. He accelerates and number 4 (!!!) misses astern.

At least that's what I think looking through the periscope. And that is why I would really like to enable the free cam, if someone could help here?

I could now, as a next thing, fire on a virtual position ahead of him in order to get even more offset than 20 deg, but that all becomes quite awkward...

[lukterran]

You could try turning on "No Map Contact Update" so that you get map updates.

Go to Attack Map in Navigation menu, after you fire your torpedoes, and see where your torpedoes are actually tracking and firing and see how you need to adjust the torpedo spread and also see if your firing solution is good.

[VIPer530]

Thanks, but my firing solution is good (if the word "good" makes any sense here). Visibility is perfect, I can see my torpedos running all the way up to his position, and, with all due respect, firing at a sitting target and then applying an offset angle... I might be green, but I'm not that incompetent ;)

The thing I'm not absolutely sure about is the last few yards. When the torpedo crosses his path, it's hard to tell through the periscope whether the torpedo reaches the interception point a bit too early or a bit too late - or exactly at the right time but it bounces off his hull???
And that is why I would love to have the free cam. Unfortunately I don't get any reply to that question. Is it not possible to enable it in a running patrol?

To be honest, the fact that I'm apparently not able to hit this guy, even after loading and trying for at least 50 times is a bit of a cooler. Can someone please tell me that they could ACTUALLY not hit a destroyer in perfect weather conditions, so that I get at least that feeling of realism back?

[lukterran]

Thanks, but my firing solution is good (if the word "good" makes any sense here). Visibility is perfect, I can see my torpedos running all the way up to his position, and, with all due respect, firing at a sitting target and then applying an offset angle... I might be green, but I'm not that incompetent ;)

The thing I'm not absolutely sure about is the last few yards. When the torpedo crosses his path, it's hard to tell through the periscope whether the torpedo reaches the interception point a bit too early or a bit too late - or exactly at the right time but it bounces off his hull???
And that is why I would love to have the free cam. Unfortunately I don't get any reply to that question. Is it not possible to enable it in a running patrol?

To be honest, the fact that I'm apparently not able to hit this guy, even after loading and trying for at least 50 times is a bit of a cooler. Can someone please tell me that they could ACTUALLY not hit a destroyer in perfect weather conditions, so that I get at least that feeling of realism back?

I am also assuming you are running those torps shallow enough and they aren't running underneath. That happens sometimes too. But yes the stock version of the game has DDs move with unrealistic speed.

[Crannogman]

Thanks, but my firing solution is good (if the word "good" makes any sense here). Visibility is perfect, I can see my torpedos running all the way up to his position, and, with all due respect, firing at a sitting target and then applying an offset angle... I might be green, but I'm not that incompetent ;)

The thing I'm not absolutely sure about is the last few yards. When the torpedo crosses his path, it's hard to tell through the periscope whether the torpedo reaches the interception point a bit too early or a bit too late - or exactly at the right time but it bounces off his hull???
And that is why I would love to have the free cam. Unfortunately I don't get any reply to that question. Is it not possible to enable it in a running patrol?

To be honest, the fact that I'm apparently not able to hit this guy, even after loading and trying for at least 50 times is a bit of a cooler. Can someone please tell me that they could ACTUALLY not hit a destroyer in perfect weather conditions, so that I get at least that feeling of realism back?

Lukterran's suggestion will help you nail down just where/how your torps are missing. Presumably nobody can tell you how to activate free cam because it can't be done

[Pisces]

While I cannot confirm that the following is going to work because of lacking a working SH4 install on my pc at the moment. It at least should provide some pointers of where to look for the setting.

The SH4 savegames and patrol settings are stored into a SH4 folder in your (Windows) user account documents folder. I found the first occurance in the file GameplaySettings.cfg inside:

Documents\SH4\data\cfg

MAKE SURE you keep a backup of these folders, as things might go horribly wrong if you change it the wrong way!

But that one is probably the baseline settings, as found in the realism option in the office. As each patrol save found in the \Savegames folder has 2 more versions of this file. One in the root of the folder of each save (named something like 0000000hexadecimalnumber) , and one in a deeper folder named UPCInitial. In each of these files you can find the line:

NoExternalView=true

Logic suggest changing this line to be "false" would solve the problem. After restarting the game and loading the savegame.

I don't know which file is the leading one for a loaded savegame. So I suggest to change that line the same in all files you can find there. Again, make sure you have a backup of the Documents\SH4 folder in case things go wrong.

P.S. It might be usefull to change the Event camera option too. That gives insight as to how close or deep the torpedo misses the target. That is, if it comes sufficiently near. The event won't trigger if the game thinks it is a clear miss.