Does the game cheat?

[lukterran]

When trying to evade destroyer escorts after a successful attack I have come to the conclusion that the game is cheating.

Because as I watch them go through their search pattern and even though I go undetected they are always following my subs path. Even when I change the direction of travel.

Again they aren't detecting my sub and racing at it and depth charging. They are just searching. They can't find me but they are always in the area.

I have been avoiding them by pulsing my engines between 0, 1/3 and 2/3 speed while running silent (to avoid their sound sweat spot in front of them cutting engines when in front of them and moving to 2/3 when all destroyers are facing away from me, in order to gain some distance)

So even when I get about 3k away they move forward into a new search pattern somehow some way even though I was never pinged the destroys keep in the same area near me even though I am moving away. I traveled a large "U" shape that covered a total of 6 miles and any time I would get any kind of distance from the group it would seem they always be following my general area even though they haven't detected my sub.

I figured at first the Destroyers were just following my last known course but they seemed to be ever present even after pulling a (a long) 180 on them in course.

I eventually lost them when I found I was at a favorable distance at about 3k and their boats were all pointing away from my boat and I choose to risk it and throttle up to full speed.

So does the game cheat or was I being unknowingly being detected by the Destroyers? Again they was never any pings. I use really good headphones with the volume at a good level to hear all that kind of noise.

[Gibus]

Bonjour,

No the game does not cheat.
If you are detected by far is that you are not quite stealthy, or that the wave conditions are too unfavorable (wind 0m / sec., for example).
Use "silent running" and go below thermal layer, this should get better.

[lukterran]

The conditions were the worst possible weather conditions for a attack run. Middle of the day 0900 clear skies and calm seas. However, I never had the option to go below the thermal layer. My sub would sink at any depth below 150 feet due to "phantom" damage the game seemed to be applying to it, even though no damage was reported. So I was primarily traveling at 140ft depth (which I would assume was deep enough to avoid being spotted by aircraft). Periscopes obviously down position.

I still eventually got away. I just found it very strange that the destroyer search pattern was able to follow relatively close to me throughout my course changes and maintain about a 1k-3k range to my sub when I should have shrugged them off much faster than that without some kind of sound contact being made and them actually detecting my sub again.

I was using the free cam at the time to be able to see what was going on at the surface. The planes and their dive bombing attacks where still following my subs last known course prior to me rigging for silent run. However, the 3 Destroyers maintained an annoying presence, not detecting my sub, but still remaining close enough in the area to stop me from completely escape at speeds below 5kt. It took over 5 hours of game time (and real time; at no compression) to escape.

I was surprised by the efficiency of the pattern they destroyers followed. An expanding and contracting triangular rotating pattern is pretty effective.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/81/Sector_pattern.jpg/440px-Sector_pattern.jpg

[Peter Cremer]

Maybe they were following an oil leak that you didn't know about?:hmmm:

[slipf18]

Bonjour,

No the game does not cheat.
If you are detected by far is that you are not quite stealthy, or that the wave conditions are too unfavorable (wind 0m / sec., for example).
Use "silent running" and go below thermal layer, this should get better.

I am not sure I buy that. On more than one occasion some task force will come along and when it is still 28k+ away I will sink to 150+turn off the engines and go silent. They will not be coming in my direction initially but then after a while they will take a hard turn, come right at me, and start laying charges exactly where I am.

[fireftr18]

What year are you in and what mods are you using?

[Barkerov]

I have been avoiding them by pulsing my engines between 0, 1/3 and 2/3 speed while running silent (to avoid their sound sweat spot in front of them cutting engines when in front of them and moving to 2/3 when all destroyers are facing away from me, in order to gain some distance)

I think that the use of 2/3 speed in calm seas is what's giving you away.

[Crannogman]

My understanding is that most people stick to 1-2 knots during silent running. I find that I can get away if I limit myself to one salvo, but I firing a second usually results in the escorts swarming prescisely and sinking me handling rapidly regardless of my speed, depth, etc

[Captain Jeff]

I run at 2 knots and do my best to present a minimum profile when I'm escaping. It can get a little hairy because I'm going so slow and it takes time to get out of their search pattern, but I have not noticed the destroyers automatically detecting me. It takes a while, but I can get away.

I think if you're presenting a minimum profile then noise is the biggest factor in whether or not you're detected. Oil or fuel leaks would be the next factor. Always check your damage. If you're leaking oil or fuel then you can be detected. If you have machinery damage then you can be making more noise than usual.

To get away: run silent, run deep!!

[Sailor Steve]

Because as I watch them go through their search pattern and even though I go undetected they are always following my subs path. Even when I change the direction of travel.

Again they aren't detecting my sub and racing at it and depth charging. They are just searching. They can't find me but they are always in the area.
Yes, that is an old and well-known (to me, anyway) behavior pattern. While I'm not sure I call it cheating I certainly do think it's a bug. Many times I've had them "accidentally" move to my general area, even if they never seem to find me and never attack. Not all the time, but sometimes it seems like magic.

[razark]

I've experienced those magic destroyers that seem to pinpoint your location as if you were waving banners and letting off fireworks. But I've also had destroyers pass right over me (to the point I'm worried about losing the periscopes) without even noticing.

[Sniper297]

Start with basics here, are you actually looking at the damage screen?

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13063372_1114300131947599_4332831418158227801_o.jp g

Upper left corner of that screen shows the percentage of hull damage, which stays the same even after all the systems have been repaired. Gotta remember the message window is small, so when a bunch of sighting and contact reports come in one right after another any damage reports might have scrolled up before you looked at them, so you have to check that screen. If the hull damage shows a high percentage, your max depth is a lot shallower than it would be with an undamaged hull.

As for the AI cheating, of course it does - for a simple reason, bits and bytes. The same program that keeps track of where your sub is also controls the AI, and it's a lot simpler to code a game where the destroyers search in the general direction of where the game knows you are, instead of trying to write an entire IF/THEN/ELSE on the psychology of different skippers and how they're going to guess or run different search patterns depending on different reports and situations. The thermal layer is also oversimplified, so if you;

1. Wait for the first torpedo to hit
2. Hit J to kick out a decoy
3. Go to ahead flank and head for the bottom.
4. When the "passing thermal layer" message comes, note the depth and go 60 feet deeper than that
5. Ahead slow, creep away in the opposite direction the convoy was originally heading.

#4 is one of those things that everyone who knows it doesn't mention it because they assume everyone else already knows - the BT sensor is on the keel, the depth sensor is on the keel. So if you hear "passing thermal layer" at 160 feet and you stop at 170 feet, most of your sub is still above the layer. If you go down to 220 feet (160 + 60) then the entire sub, including the periscope shears, is below the layer and there's nothing sticking up above it to detect. That's not how thermal layers work in real life, but the game treats it as a kind of virtual surface, if any part of the sub is sticking up above that layer the sonar can "see" it.

[Warren Peace]

Just because you're not getting pinged doesn't mean you were undetected, especially if you were throttling to 1/3 or 2/3 while those escorts were within 5 nautical miles of you. Submerged, at that speed, their passive sonar heard you, which is why they came looking.

Evasion is about patience, not speed. Get below the thermal layer (someone will tell you when you get to it), and keep your engine RPM well under 100 (which on most boats equates to 2-knots at the most. You can jump into the command room, F2-shortcut, and check the dials).

Don't even think about accelerating higher than 2-3 knots until they are long-gone, as-in barely audible on your own sonar, or attacking.

[Crannogman]

Probably if your diving ability is so pooched as to be unable to reach the thermal layer, you should RTB for some time in drydock

[lukterran]

Thanks for all the responses.

I am running a stock version of the game. (No mods at all)

I am checking the correct Damage Screen. No damage.

Lastly, how are you guys seeing your RPMs? All I see on my dials is speed in nautical miles, or the All Stop, 1/3, 2/3 etc....I don't see anywhere that the game gives me a RPMs reading.

[Gray Lensman]

Thanks for all the responses.

I am running a stock version of the game. (No mods at all)

I am checking the correct Damage Screen. No damage.

Lastly, how are you guys seeing your RPMs? All I see on my dials is speed in nautical miles, or the All Stop, 1/3, 2/3 etc....I don't see anywhere that the game gives me a RPMs reading.

Go into the control room and move around with the free camera keys. There are four gauges usually with a guy standing in front of them so you have to move the camera view "thru" him to see the gauges.

[Holyfirebomb_7]

I don't know if it's the same in all subs, but in my Salmon the rpm gauges are just below the starboard engine telegram and to the right of the rudder gauge on the control room helm station.

[aanker]

Originally Posted by lukterran
Thanks for all the responses.

I am running a stock version of the game. (No mods at all)

I am checking the correct Damage Screen. No damage.

Lastly, how are you guys seeing your RPMs? All I see on my dials is speed in nautical miles, or the All Stop, 1/3, 2/3 etc....I don't see anywhere that the game gives me a RPMs reading.
If you're playing Stock with no mods your rpm gauges are useless because they are not 'calibrated' to be even close to what your engines are turning.

You will have to run Silent Speed and use your knotmeter to keep your speed at 2 knots. If you don't know how to get the knotmeter, click the black thing below your HUD 1/3, 2/3, Standard speed, etc. I think if you stay down until dark and creep away at 2 knots you will make it. If the DD's are dropping DC's on you, you have a few seconds when they drop to increase your speed and begin to make a turn, then click Silent Speed right away, and click your knotmeter to 2 knots again. Be patient.

The external camera is mostly useless because it will not show a DD that is not making any noise - especially if he is sitting right behind you.

After dark, manually raise your scope barely above the surface and see if any DD's are close. If you don't spot any, raise it a bit higher and look again. Keep working your scope, then your boat, higher & higher if you can until your radar comes on. If the DD's are a few thousand yards away and it is dark, blow your tanks ahead flank and clear the area. Their sonar won't detect you

RTB and get repaired. In the future I recommend that you never attack at 0900 in calm seas again. Track them until close to dusk and attack then.

Based on work Ducimus was doing, with his permission and help I made a small mod to calibrate the stock gauges - especially the rpm gauges by the wheel in the CR & CT.

If you like stock, I recommend that you try that or try Webster's GFO mod... the gauges are calibrated in it too and the game stays stock.

I learned my ASW techniques in SH1 SHCE which is much harder than SH4 (imo).

Good luck and Happy Hunting!

[Sniper297]

Looking over this thread, you don't mention what type sub, but for an undamaged sub 150 feet is way too shallow. One of 3 things;

1. Your save game file is corrupted with the wrong crush depth
2. One of the submarine ZON files has been altered
3. Your depth gauge is showing meters instead of feet.

Test depth is the specified requirement before the Navy will buy the sub, actual engineering doubles that, so the actual crush depth is at least twice the test depth, usually more. Some figures from the unmodified stock game ZON files;

S class 402.6 feet
Porpoise 495 feet
Salmon/Sargo 501.6 feet
Gato 627 feet

Below that depth the sub will start taking 2 hit points of damage per second. The Porpoise was the first with an all welded hull, the S class had rivets, and in real life the S class subs were so old it was dangerous to go below 150 because the pumps couldn't keep up with the leaks. But the game doesn't take that into account, in the stock game you can dive an S boat to 350 with no problem. I would suggest starting a new career as a test, with the same sub type, see if it has the same problem going below 150 feet.

Different topic, AFAIK you can't actually control RPM directly, but the engine telegraph has a switch button just below it so you can toggle between telegraph and knot meter. Using that you can set the speed for 1 knot or 2 knots directly. I personally don't use that, below the layer I just set ahead 1/3rd and don't even bother with silent running, 60 or more feet below the layer 3 knots is fine.

[lukterran]

Looking over this thread, you don't mention what type sub, but for an undamaged sub 150 feet is way too shallow. One of 3 things;

1. Your save game file is corrupted with the wrong crush depth
2. One of the submarine ZON files has been altered
3. Your depth gauge is showing meters instead of feet.

Test depth is the specified requirement before the Navy will buy the sub, actual engineering doubles that, so the actual crush depth is at least twice the test depth, usually more. Some figures from the unmodified stock game ZON files;

S class 402.6 feet
Porpoise 495 feet
Salmon/Sargo 501.6 feet
Gato 627 feet

Below that depth the sub will start taking 2 hit points of damage per second. The Porpoise was the first with an all welded hull, the S class had rivets, and in real life the S class subs were so old it was dangerous to go below 150 because the pumps couldn't keep up with the leaks. But the game doesn't take that into account, in the stock game you can dive an S boat to 350 with no problem. I would suggest starting a new career as a test, with the same sub type, see if it has the same problem going below 150 feet.

Different topic, AFAIK you can't actually control RPM directly, but the engine telegraph has a switch button just below it so you can toggle between telegraph and knot meter. Using that you can set the speed for 1 knot or 2 knots directly. I personally don't use that, below the layer I just set ahead 1/3rd and don't even bother with silent running, 60 or more feet below the layer 3 knots is fine.

Running stock version of the game from Steam. In a Salmon sub. Not even sure how my files could have been changed.

[fireftr18]

Thanks for all the responses.

I am running a stock version of the game. (No mods at all)

I am checking the correct Damage Screen. No damage.

Lastly, how are you guys seeing your RPMs? All I see on my dials is speed in nautical miles, or the All Stop, 1/3, 2/3 etc....I don't see anywhere that the game gives me a RPMs reading.

The stock game, the boat will start to crush at the test depth.
At the helmsman's station, there is a tachometer. You can zoom in on that, and you'll see the RPMs. Keeping the speed at 2 knots or below will usually work.

[Sniper297]

"Running stock version of the game from Steam."

Don't get me started on STEAM. :/\\!!

"In a Salmon sub. Not even sure how my files could have been changed."

Again, start a different career with a Salmon, dive to 450 feet, see what happens. You have to do process of elimination to troubleshoot these things, if the sub crushes at 150 in a brand new career unrelated to the save files, then the problem is in the ZON file or you are reading meters instead of feet. If it goes to 450 with no damage, there's a problem in the save file(s).

"The stock game, the boat will start to crush at the test depth."

For the Salmon there are two files that control this;

\Data\Submarine\NSS_Salmon\NSS_Salmon.cfg

The "Max depth" in that file is the one that shows up as the test depth needle on the deep depth gauge, it's not the actual max depth.

\Data\Submarine\NSS_SalmonNSS_Salmon.zon

The "crash depth" in that file is the actual CRUSH depth, apparently mistranslated from Romanian to English.

"At the helmsman's station, there is a tachometer. You can zoom in on that, and you'll see the RPMs. Keeping the speed at 2 knots or below"

Don't need to fool around with that, the engine telegraph on the HUD at the bottom can be toggled from telegraph to knot meter, you can set the actual desired knots directly from that.