Correct/missing planes in SH4

[Leandros]

A year or so ago I reported missing and/or wrongly designated US aircraft types in SH4. Anybody been into that in the meantime?

Fred

[nrnstraswa]

Yes I would love to see proper planes in SH4. The F2A Buffalo is ok for 1941, but the F4F Wildcat should replace it as the US fighter.

[De Ruyter]

A year or so ago I reported missing and/or wrongly designated US aircraft types in SH4. Anybody been into that in the meantime?

Fred

Anyone notice the American Lancaster in the first training mission? I have been wondering about that, apparently that is not the only one.

[Webster]

there was much talk of this when the game first came out, with all of the sh series in fact.

the problem with missing planes and inaccurate map labels and features is mostly due to copy write infringement issues and permissions to use them wasn't allowed.

the designs and 3d models of these planes are copy write protected and you have to pay to use them so that is why a lot is missing or what is in the game is different from how it really was.

if you were to get ahold of these 3d models and share them, you could be subject to getting sued over it.

just putting that info out there for those who did not know.

not saying something cant be done with some of them, just be careful with uploading anything like that until you are sure its not protected.

[Barkerov]

I am all for having the game as historically accurate as possible but since aircraft behave so unrealistically already (for example a 4 engine bomber pulling up ridiculously sharp from a dive bombing run) it matters little to me if they are the correct type or not.
All I need to know about aircraft in silent hunter is that they are there and when they are around I make myself scarce.

[Leandros]

Anyone notice the American Lancaster in the first training mission? I have been wondering about that, apparently that is not the only one.

That was one of the planes I reacted to, also many faulty insignias, etc. for the period in other plane types. Last time I checked even the SBD Dauntless was missing - in the Pacific! Strange thing is that some of the missing types actually exist in SH3.

PBY's with British insignias (Catalinas, really).

I tried to transfer some of these into SH4. It worked but I wasn't able to make them behave properly.

My interest in this stems from creating cool life-like scenarios, lately as an aid to illustrate my "Saving MacArthur" book project.

An example below:

1, 2: Seaplane carrier IJN Chitose torpedoed outside Davao by USN Vindicators. Should have been the missing Devastator.

3: USS Bagley passing the sinking IJN Nagara in Bangka Sound, north-east Celebes

4. The SBD Dauntless is missing (my Hobby Master 1/72 diecast model).

Fred




http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/Leandros10/AirLaunchedTorpedoChitose_zpsgkoemj5i.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/AirLaunchedTorpedoChitose_zpsgkoemj5i.jpg.html)



http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/Leandros10/AirLaunchedTorpedo2Chitose_zpspiykqelc.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/AirLaunchedTorpedo2Chitose_zpspiykqelc.jpg.html)


http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/Leandros10/GridleyPassingNagara_zpswbi88wib.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/GridleyPassingNagara_zpswbi88wib.jpg.html)


http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/Leandros10/SDC12662_zpsxaruzzz2.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/SDC12662_zpsxaruzzz2.jpg.html)

[De Ruyter]

[INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]That was one of the planes I reacted to, also many faulty insignias, etc. for the period in other plane types. Last time I checked even the SBD Dauntless was missing - in the Pacific! Strange thing is that some of the missing types actually exist in SH3.

PBY's with British insignias (Catalinas, really).

I tried to transfer some of these into SH4. It worked but I wasn't able to make them behave properly.

My interest in this stems from creating cool life-like scenarios, lately as an aid to illustrate my "Saving MacArthur" book project.

An example below:

1, 2: Seaplane carrier IJN Chitose torpedoed outside Davao by USN Vindicators. Should have been the missing Devastator.

3: USS Bagley passing the sinking IJN Nagara in Bangka Sound, north-east Celebes

4. The SBD Dauntless is missing (my Hobby Master 1/72 diecast model).

Fred




Yeah, the Vindicator was a dive bomber. At least the British did have Catalinas. I don't know much about the Vindicator, maybe it could carry torpedoes as well.

[Rockin Robbins]

I thought this was a submarine simulator.:D:D

As a sub captain my rule is "never be seen by an airplane." Well I'm bigger than they are, so I can never let them get close enough to identify, much less see insignia, etc. I really don't care if they are bomb carrying seagulls, I'm diving to radar depth and waiting for them to exit visual range.

Therefore I don't care if they got the planes right or not. It has no bearing on the quality of the submarine simulation. What something I will never see looks like is not a concern of mine.

Has anyone checked to see if the Empire State building has the correct number of floors in SH4? That is just as relevant, you know!

[Leandros]

Yeah, the Vindicator was a dive bomber. At least the British did have Catalinas. I don't know much about the Vindicator, maybe it could carry torpedoes as well.

My point is that the standard USN torpedo bomber at the start of the war was the TBD Devastator, later relieved by the Avenger. And, yes, the British did have the Catalina - PBY in the US vocabulary. Not many of these served in the Pacific, though.

Fred

[Leandros]

Has anyone checked to see if the Empire State building has the correct number of floors in SH4? That is just as relevant, you know!

Where in the Pacific is this building you're quoting....:03:....?

Fred

[Webster]

I thought this was a submarine simulator.:D:D

As a sub captain my rule is "never be seen by an airplane." Well I'm bigger than they are, so I can never let them get close enough to identify, much less see insignia, etc. I really don't care if they are bomb carrying seagulls, I'm diving to radar depth and waiting for them to exit visual range.

Therefore I don't care if they got the planes right or not. It has no bearing on the quality of the submarine simulation. What something I will never see looks like is not a concern of mine.

Has anyone checked to see if the Empire State building has the correct number of floors in SH4? That is just as relevant, you know!

to each his own RR

everyone has their own likes and dislikes and just worrying about things under the water is only half of the game environment so weather its ship skins or land details or planes, whatever make things look better and act more realistically the better in my view.

I hate planes flying sideways and going in directions the plane isn't pointed to go in and would love to see these things have better AI control, even if I never go up to see them, I still would love them to work and look right.

watching how planes move in the game is really pathetic AI and looks more like a plane on a stick being moved around rather then one that is actually flying

[De Ruyter]

I thought this was a submarine simulator.:D:D

As a sub captain my rule is "never be seen by an airplane." Well I'm bigger than they are, so I can never let them get close enough to identify, much less see insignia, etc. I really don't care if they are bomb carrying seagulls, I'm diving to radar depth and waiting for them to exit visual range.

Therefore I don't care if they got the planes right or not. It has no bearing on the quality of the submarine simulation. What something I will never see looks like is not a concern of mine.

Has anyone checked to see if the Empire State building has the correct number of floors in SH4? That is just as relevant, you know!

To quote Cary Grant, "I'd rather dive for a hundred birds than not dive for one airplane.
As far as how relevant it is, I like my games to be realistic. Would you rather have a generic plane model for everybody, or see a Perry-class frigate in the game? I understand that it does not matter that much as far as gameplay goes, but I would rather encounter realistic units. If it is less of an issue for you, that is fine, whatever floats your boat (pun intended:har:). Mine is not sunk because of it, but I am one of those who likes a higher level of realism. And even though I will not usually see them, there may be a time when I am caught on the surface, and I do care about it then.

[ETR3(SS)]

Personally I think the lack of real aircraft and medals being a copyright issue, may or may not be a bs story. I think they didn't want to put the time and money required into that part of the game. There are countless other games, pre and post SH4, that didn't have this issue. The game was pretty lackluster when released, I myself put it back on the self for a couple of years and went back to SH3. Which is really saying something because I prefer the US over the U-Boats. Just not one of those die hard fan boys of them.

But so far as someone modding them into the game, that shouldn't be a problem at all. Even legally I can't foresee the copyright holder pursuing a few people over something so trivial at the end of the day.

[Leandros]

Personally I think the lack of real aircraft and medals being a copyright issue, may or may not be a bs story. I think they didn't want to put the time and money required into that part of the game. There are countless other games, pre and post SH4, that didn't have this issue. The game was pretty lackluster when released, I myself put it back on the self for a couple of years and went back to SH3. Which is really saying something because I prefer the US over the U-Boats. Just not one of those die hard fan boys of them.

But so far as someone modding them into the game, that shouldn't be a problem at all. Even legally I can't foresee the copyright holder pursuing a few people over something so trivial at the end of the day.

I'm not sure how the copyright issue came into this. Several of the planes I miss in SH4 are actually in SH3.

Fred

[Webster]

I'm not sure how the copyright issue came into this. Several of the planes I miss in SH4 are actually in SH3.

Fred


I know when someone was trying to add the super fortress, p-38 lightning and p-51 mustang, and a few others too, they ran into problems and weren't allowed to release any depictions or renderings of them without paying royalties $$$$, pretty much shut it all down.

IIRC the catalina was made british with a few changes to avoid such issues and claim it as a likeness but different enough so it could be used in the game.

if its already in the game its safe but if its not in there, all im saying is "some" companies wont let you depict their aircraft without paying $.

I would love to see everything that existed in the game, and done as realistic as can be depicted, I would download that in a second, but I just wanted to be sure anyone who wants to mod plane stuff, understand that in the past "someone" at the plane mfg had issues with a few planes being used.

[Rockin Robbins]

My point is that effort spent to cosmetic effects of airplanes is effort not spent on items that bear on the quality of the gameplay. All that is eyecandy and doesn't mean a thing. If they were Wright Fliers and dropped bombs in the right places and shot guns at you at appropriate times the gameplay is completely unaffected.

We don't have any problem with encountering the Yamato and sinking it five times in a career. It doesn't matter that all equipment is 199% reliable. It doesn't matter that the mouse is much too sensitive for the stadimeter and fine adjustments are not possible. It doesn't matter that you're standing on the bridge with a large control tower between you and the target you can somehow see through 12' of steel. How about the target you just put four torpedoes into that doesn't have a single hole in it? But that airplane you'll never see has to have the right markings and exact configuration?

It's a matter of priorities. Eye candy needs to come last. Gameplay needs to be king, even at the expense of eye candy.

[Bilge_Rat]

The issue with incorrect planes has been known for a long time. It is a copyright issue, Il2 "Pacific Fighters" had the same issue. Personally it has never bothered me since I dive deep whenever a plane appears.

I don't see what the issue is, if Leandros wants to create a mod with the proper planes, go for it. I'm sure some here will use it.

[Webster]

It's a matter of priorities. Eye candy needs to come last. Gameplay needs to be king, even at the expense of eye candy.

I disagree, its a matter of what each individual modder feels is important to them.

that is the spirit which created the vast array and scope of mods we have today,

that no one conforms to the opinions of others as to what is important to mod.

if someone wants to make better seagulls or anything else like dolphins and whales (all decried as needless eye candy) im all for that, please do, I would like to have it in my game, after all, its not like its going to be taking any of my time or effort for them to do that

we understand you don't think its a good use of some ones time, but if he wants to do it, why continue to poo-poo the idea?

[Leandros]

The issue with incorrect planes has been known for a long time. It is a copyright issue, Il2 "Pacific Fighters" had the same issue. Personally it has never bothered me since I dive deep whenever a plane appears.

I don't see what the issue is, if Leandros wants to create a mod with the proper planes, go for it. I'm sure some here will use it.

Unfortunately I am not in the position to create new planes, way above my head. But, I have learnt to use the mission editor which is quite cool - when it wants to....! I have also tried to transfer planes from SHIII to SH4. About a year ago I got into it again but trying anew now, it is as uncooperative as it has always been. It is so sad because it's a terrific creative tool when it works.

Its latest "idea" now is to try to rename every new scenario, and put them into a SH mission folder that I actually have deleted. I'm not able to figure this out however much I try.

Fred

[Webster]

Unfortunately I am not in the position to create new planes, way above my head. But, I have learnt to use the mission editor which is quite cool - when it wants to....! I have also tried to transfer planes from SHIII to SH4. About a year ago I got into it again but trying anew now, it is as uncooperative as it has always been. It is so sad because it's a terrific creative tool when it works.

Its latest "idea" now is to try to rename every new scenario, and put them into a SH mission folder that I actually have deleted. I'm not able to figure this out however much I try.

Fred

just open the planes sim and zon files (not sure which, might be both) and you will find the values that control the way they dive and turn as well as max and min heights they will fly. not sure just how much is possible but im sure they can be "adjusted" to look less "plane on a stick" movements.

as to the appearance there are the image files that can be used to retexture then as you like. just talk to guys on the forum and look at the ship texture work that's been done. im pretty sure the exact same principles and methods can be used for planes

all you need is some spare time to play around with it and create some missions to be able to test and see the results of the changes you make.

the main ingredient you need is the want and desire to do it

[Leandros]

....all you need is some spare time to play around with it and create some missions to be able to test and see the results of the changes you make.

the main ingredient you need is the want and desire to do it

Thank you, Webster - that is all well - but, as I indicated, the ME has its strange idiosyncrasies which I have problems understanding. I have made dozens of scenarios of all sorts.

For some reason, it seems to me that the ME is more stable when using it in SHIII than in SH4.

Fred

[Webster]

Thank you, Webster - that is all well - but, as I indicated, the ME has its strange idiosyncrasies which I have problems understanding. I have made dozens of scenarios of all sorts.

For some reason, it seems to me that the ME is more stable when using it in SHIII than in SH4.

Fred


cant argue about that, it has a mind of its own sometimes, especially trying to script aircraft to spawn dependably

[Leandros]

Here is a recent modification of an old scenario that works. I have trouble generating new ones these days.

1: This SBD Dauntless flies beautifully. Note the bomb. I believe I transferred this one from SH3. I shall go in and mod it with heavier bombs.

2 and 3: All three SBD's were shot down. They flew in at 200 m. so that is not surprising. I shall correct their dive altitude, too. The cruisers are Haguro and Nachi (look-alikes, anyway....:)....).

Funny with this scenario, I originally had a heap of B-17F's attacking them but they never showed up. Now a year later I see that their entry date was wrong. Not only that, I corrected it several times but it wouldn't budge - went back to the old date every time. Then the bell rang. The B-17F didn't get into play until September '42, I was making a scenario in January. I suppose I could have corrected that in the software but more correct would be to use an earlier B-17 version. Which isn't there...:O:...I think..

Fred


http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/Leandros10/bombingHaguro_zps3unfutyj.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/bombingHaguro_zps3unfutyj.jpg.html)


http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/Leandros10/bombingHaguro2_zps87qjdcpc.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/bombingHaguro2_zps87qjdcpc.jpg.html)


http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/Leandros10/bombingHaguro3_zpsyxalm05v.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/bombingHaguro3_zpsyxalm05v.jpg.html)

[Barkerov]

It's a matter of priorities. Eye candy needs to come last. Gameplay needs to be king, even at the expense of eye candy.

With you 100% RR. Gameplay should come first but unfortunately far too many games these days are putting emphasis on eye candy at the expense of gameplay.

I might add to your argument that even if you could get all the correct planes, they still won't use attack and approach tactics that real pilots would use which is a far more important and more difficult to solve problem than the aircraft skin.

[Webster]

Funny with this scenario, I originally had a heap of B-17F's attacking them but they never showed up. Now a year later I see that their entry date was wrong. Not only that, I corrected it several times but it wouldn't budge - went back to the old date every time. Then the bell rang. The B-17F didn't get into play until September '42, I was making a scenario in January. I suppose I could have corrected that in the software but more correct would be to use an earlier B-17 version. Which isn't there...:O:...I think..

Fred



well if you use ms notebook to open the files then save before exiting they stay where you put them.

the ME tends to "correct" things for you like that so after the missions are done go in manually to reset the dates using windows notepad.

[Leandros]

well if you use ms notebook to open the files then save before exiting they stay where you put them.

the ME tends to "correct" things for you like that so after the missions are done go in manually to reset the dates using windows notepad.

Another funny thing. When I loaded the SBD with other than "basic" load the crews disappeared from the planes. That wasn't any fun so I switched back....:hmmm:...

Fred



The SBD's finally did it. Haguro well down by the aft here with good help from a Vindicator crashing into it.


http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/Leandros10/bombingHaguro10_zpskuizbwfz.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/bombingHaguro10_zpskuizbwfz.jpg.html)


The game call this a Devastator but it is really a Vindicator.


http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/Leandros10/bombingHaguro11_zpszzabduau.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/bombingHaguro11_zpszzabduau.jpg.html)


Here's a cool one....


http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/Leandros10/bombingHaguro8_zpsplh2kgto.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/bombingHaguro8_zpsplh2kgto.jpg.html)

[Rockin Robbins]

Those are some of the finest screenshots to come out of SH4! I especially like the first one.

[sfc]

if you are looking for more planes, look at several of the mods -such as RSRDC_SH15_V550. it is for sh5 iI think but have been able to get acouple to work in sh4.
also look at the mod ASW_9.0_STANDARD_1.5, and in the fall of the raising sun there is a bunch of planes that do work in sh4. including PBYs
also look at Rubini's posts, he created a mod where jap planes drop torpedos and they do explode.
I hope this helps you on your search, I went through alot of troubles to find these, but finally did find some that work. good luck:up:

[Bilge_Rat]

leandros, I really like the sea colour, what env mod are you using?

[Leandros]

leandros, I really like the sea colour, what env mod are you using?

Hi, BR - please don't ask - I installed it on my new computer a little more than a year ago.....:hmmm:..

Fred

[Leandros]

if you are looking for more planes, look at several of the mods -such as RSRDC_SH15_V550. it is for sh5 iI think but have been able to get acouple to work in sh4.
also look at the mod ASW_9.0_STANDARD_1.5, and in the fall of the raising sun there is a bunch of planes that do work in sh4. including PBYs
also look at Rubini's posts, he created a mod where jap planes drop torpedos and they do explode.
I hope this helps you on your search, I went through alot of troubles to find these, but finally did find some that work. good luck:up:
Hi, sfc - your mod designations don 't tell me much. Would you possibly have links to those?

That jap torpedo mod looks cool. Torpedo-launching Kates and Bettys....:yeah:..

Fred

[sfc]

here is the links that I could find again, you may need to copy files from the mods to your base game-do you know what files you need to do to get them to work?
first link has the most planes
http://www.gamefront.com/files/14694511/Fall_of_the_Rising_Sun

here has some great asw planes for the japs
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//downloads.php?do=file&id=1256

then this one has jap torpedo planes that do work
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//downloads.php?do=file&id=3831
look through this download for for the mod Traveller Mod v2.01 for TMO and then copy paste plays and equipment to your base game. they do work.

then here is the link to the us air torpedo mod, it was for sh3 but I got to work on sh4 also. its really sad that Rubini quit working on these mods. below the link is a link to his thread link
http://www.mediafire.com/download/y44id1ew2l0ni2f/Air+Torpedo_mod_v1.2.7z

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=197762&highlight=air+torpedos
this has a lot of good info about the mod and links to both versions.
just remember to give credit to the guys who made these, they put alot of work into them.
on a note, I put PBYs in my pearl Harbor attack mission on the ground at ford island and they explode as soon as they appear- when I time them right- they will start burning as the jap planes start attacking.
anyway, hope this helps you. any questions just ask.:salute:

[Leandros]

Thank you sooo much....now I need to keep the tongue straight....I hate updates, never fail to make problems.....:hmmm:..

Fred

[Leandros]

Was tinkering a little with the editor - found that the Aussie Hudson flies beautifully - and bombs accurately! Very pleasing to the eye, too.

Fred

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/Leandros10/bombingHaguro12_zps2q0rpm8z.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/bombingHaguro12_zps2q0rpm8z.jpg.html)


http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/Leandros10/bombingHaguro13_zps4uauitdz.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/bombingHaguro13_zps4uauitdz.jpg.html)

[Leandros]

I believed SH4 planes do not dogfight. While tinkering with a book scenario this Wildcat was fired at by a Japanese tail-gunner.

Hmm...how to get the Wildcat to fire back......:hmmm:...

Fred




http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/Leandros10/NamnloumlsValFiringAtWildcat_zpsdlvbntrk.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/NamnloumlsValFiringAtWildcat_zpsdlvbntrk.jpg.html)

[Webster]

Was tinkering a little with the editor - found that the Aussie Hudson flies beautifully - and bombs accurately! Very pleasing to the eye, too.

Fred
[/URL]


[URL="http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/bombingHaguro13_zps4uauitdz.jpg.html"] (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/bombingHaguro12_zps2q0rpm8z.jpg.html)


looks like you have your correctly working base model game files to start with now.

the trick now is you just have to figure out what is so different in the flight control files of other planes in the game that make them fly sideways or like they are on a stick