Has anyone done this?

[woodenboat]

I recently found myself doing a photo recon in a harbor when suddenly, a destroyer come into the harbor, pinging away and IT WAS LOOKING FOR ME!

I backed into one of the slips and went silent. It was just a complete stroke of luck that I was aimed just right so that I could back into that slip. If I had needed to maneuver, I would not have made it. That action saved my bacon and I was not discovered.

Is the AI on this sim really THAT good that this level of realism exists? Either way, this is fun stuff!

[De Ruyter]

I recently found myself doing a photo recon in a harbor when suddenly, a destroyer come into the harbor, pinging away and IT WAS LOOKING FOR ME!

I backed into one of the slips and went silent. It was just a complete stroke of luck that I was aimed just right so that I could back into that slip. If I had needed to maneuver, I would not have made it. That action saved my bacon and I was not discovered.

Is the AI on this sim really THAT good that this level of realism exists? Either way, this is fun stuff!

What do you mean by "slip"? What is that?

[woodenboat]

A boat slip is the docking area between two wharves where a ship is moored. Since I have a real boat in real life, I may have used the wrong nomenclature. What's good for boats and what's good for ships may be two different things.

[Majestik 909]

Yes...and I sank him....

Excellent evasion tactics by the way....

You can also hide next to a partially sunk ship in the harnor and attack approaching escorts. The same can be done by hiding under a slow-moving tanker, at sea, and attacking by sonar while submerged. Especially useful with acoustic torpedoes....

[fatbooboo]

I have only ever noticed there is always at least 1 destroyer guarding ports, however when there is a fleet parked there, o my its a death trap for me.

[De Ruyter]

I have only ever noticed there is always at least 1 destroyer guarding ports, however when there is a fleet parked there, o my its a death trap for me.

Is it a death trap because of numerous active destroyers? Being used to SH1, where there were usually only two active destroyers, it was easy, I would just deck gun them because they would wait to get close before firing. I take it it is not that way in SH4? I am still in the Torpedo Attack tutorial, I still have not quite figured out how to make a successful torpedo attack, and will play that one until I am comfortable enough to try the Convoy Attack tutorial.

[Raptor82]

Would not reccomend gunning it out with a destroyer

[De Ruyter]

Would not reccomend gunning it out with a destroyer

Not in SH4, no, I don't imagine so. This was SH1, where they would not fire until around 2000 yds away. I would open fire around 4000-6000 yards, the computer would automatically adjust the gun for range. With a heavier gun, it would take about 10-15 rounds, with a lighter gun earlier in the war, it would take between 25 and 50 rounds. Actually, if I remember correctly, the S-class had heavier guns than the P-class, so many of the P-classes were refitted with the guns from the S-classes as the S-classes were sent back for training purposes.
Just got sunk in SH1 by a merchant who was firing from 3000 or 4000 yards, very accurately, I might add; I had already taken some damage from another armed freighter of some kind. Won a Posthumous MOH, SS, NC. Yay.

[woodenboat]

I have been killed by destroyers enough now that I've gotten really frustrated at times. Frustration leads to desperation and desperation can lead to some really rash actions on my part. But I figure, what the heck? I'm about to die anyway.

So, just a little while ago, I had a fast destroyer closing rapidly from behind. Since he had already pinged me and knew exactly where I was, I didn't try to go deep and silent. I turned as quickly as I could directly away from him and went all ahead flank! I opened my stern tubes and waited until he was dead astern at about 600 yards. I fired one fish right on his nose and down he went! By this time, his partner in crime was closing in from almost dead astern too. So I did exactly the same thing and YUP, he got one right on the nose, too.

OMG! I couldn't believe that that actually worked! - TWICE EVEN! Of course, it cost me two torpedoes that i would have loved to use on ships that weighed a lot more but, on the other hand, it was better than dying. I think that one of the keys to success was that, both times, I waited until the bad guy was right around 600 yards out. Both times, I had a vivid green triangle.
Within just a few seconds of firing my fish, both ships tried to turn away in a panic. Wow, those destroyers can turn really fast. ....but not fast enough at that range. I know that if I had fired sooner, they would have dodged and if I fired later, my fish would not have had time to arm. And now I know that it only takes one torpedo to kill a destroyer.

It's a really dicey strategy but it gave me one of the most fun games I've played yet.

Yeah, this sim is getting better and better.

[De Ruyter]

So do most people use the manual targeting or automatic? I am trying the manual, and it is hard, and this is just the training mission. I send the bearing, range, ship type, estimated AOB, speed, then an updated bearing and range, and can't seem to get any hits, even on a broadside target inside 1000 yards with a spread of torpedos. Should I not update the bearing and range? Or is that what the Position Keeper is for, and should I turn that on before anything else?

[Majestik 909]

I have been killed by destroyers enough now that I've gotten really frustrated at times. Frustration leads to desperation and desperation can lead to some really rash actions on my part. But I figure, what the heck? I'm about to die anyway.

So, just a little while ago, I had a fast destroyer closing rapidly from behind. Since he had already pinged me and knew exactly where I was, I didn't try to go deep and silent. I turned as quickly as I could directly away from him and went all ahead flank! I opened my stern tubes and waited until he was dead astern at about 600 yards. I fired one fish right on his nose and down he went! By this time, his partner in crime was closing in from almost dead astern too. So I did exactly the same thing and YUP, he got one right on the nose, too.

OMG! I couldn't believe that that actually worked! - TWICE EVEN! Of course, it cost me two torpedoes that i would have loved to use on ships that weighed a lot more but, on the other hand, it was better than dying. I think that one of the keys to success was that, both times, I waited until the bad guy was right around 600 yards out. Both times, I had a vivid green triangle.
Within just a few seconds of firing my fish, both ships tried to turn away in a panic. Wow, those destroyers can turn really fast. ....but not fast enough at that range. I know that if I had fired sooner, they would have dodged and if I fired later, my fish would not have had time to arm. And now I know that it only takes one torpedo to kill a destroyer.

It's a really dicey strategy but it gave me one of the most fun games I've played yet.

Yeah, this sim is getting better and better.

Nice work...

[Sniper297]

So do most people use the manual targeting or automatic? I am trying the manual, and it is hard, and this is just the training mission. I send the bearing, range, ship type, estimated AOB, speed, then an updated bearing and range, and can't seem to get any hits, even on a broadside target inside 1000 yards with a spread of torpedos. Should I not update the bearing and range? Or is that what the Position Keeper is for, and should I turn that on before anything else?

You didn't mention the Q key, but one problem with the programming - if you hit the fire key and the tube is not open, the crew will open the outer door then fire the torpedo automatically. Which is a guaranteed miss every time, because the gyro angle at the moment the fire command is given is set, and the few seconds delay to automatically open the outer door means the target has moved.

If you're not doing it already make sure you hit the Q key to open the outer doors BEFORE doing the "final bearing and shoot".

[Majestik 909]

So do most people use the manual targeting or automatic? I am trying the button and it is hard, and this is just the training mission. I send the bearing, range, ship type, estimated AOB, speed, then an updated bearing and range, and can't seem to get any hits, even on a broadside target inside 1000 yards with a spread of torpedos. Should I not update the bearing and range? Or is that what the Position Keeper is for, and should I turn that on before anything else?

I assume you speak of American boats...my son likes the American boats, so this is how he does it. Start position keeper on initial approach. Use the red 'S' button to lock target. Approach to less than 1000 yards - I attack between 400 and 600, but a German torpedo arms quicker, so i can move in closer. Try this and see.

[De Ruyter]

You didn't mention the Q key, but one problem with the programming - if you hit the fire key and the tube is not open, the crew will open the outer door then fire the torpedo automatically. Which is a guaranteed miss every time, because the gyro angle at the moment the fire command is given is set, and the few seconds delay to automatically open the outer door means the target has moved.

If you're not doing it already make sure you hit the Q key to open the outer doors BEFORE doing the "final bearing and shoot".

Ahhh....Thank you. I knew nothing about that. I kind of wondered about the doors, because as realistic as SH4 was, I was a bit surprised that they did not have a torpedo door thing, turns out it was only my ignorance. No need to be surprised after all. I will try that. That also explains the delay from when I hit the button and when the torpedoman says, "Torpedo in the water". Does it open the door only for the selected tube, or for all the tubes?

[Sniper297]

Only for the selected tube. I generally set speed and depth then hit Q (open outer door) then W (switch to next tube) and repeat until all the tubes I intend to shoot are set and open when the target is still 5000+ yards away. I also set the AOB to 80 (or whatever it looks like it will be at the moment of firing) when they're still 3000 yards or so, since you won't have time to do it at closer range - the AOB changes slowly at long range but too quickly to keep up with at close range.

Personally I use the auto open = false hack;

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1738000&postcount=3

So I don't waste torpedoes, if the outer door isn't already open the tube won't fire.

[Majestik 909]

I never attack from more than 600 meters....

[woodenboat]

So do most people use the manual targeting or automatic? I am trying the manual, and it is hard, and this is just the training mission.

Right now, I can ONLY get any sort of success in this game with my aiming set on automatic. I've read the manual, watched all the tutorials on YouTube about how to do it manually and REALLY, the manual method looks genuinely fun. But I've had this sim for less than one week and I am just not getting it all yet. I Know that I will eventually learn it all and I will spend many hours getting lost in this great simulation. But until then, I am using automatic aiming in my career games. I am manually targeting ships in the quick missions and I'm dying and dying and dying... ad nauseum.

Early in one of my games I discovered the Q key quite by accident. I bumped the key inadvertently and then I saw what it did. Suddenly I realized why my boat was taking so darn long to fire off a torpedo. But no more now. However, I also got to thinking that it would only make sense that the torpedo door would need to be closed for the crew to reload. So, the next time they crew reloaded, I tried and Q key and sure enough, I opened the door. So remember that the door closes for reloading. And it does NOT tell you that it is closing. I'm gonna have to slap some of my crew members around for not keeping me in the loop - such as that one dude that's supposed to tell when I pass the thermocline but he doesn't.

I never attack from more than 600 meters....

Interesting... As the Mexicans would say: "Tu tienes huevos grandes, chico."

[Majestik 909]

Distance compounds error and affords a target time to see/hear a torpedo and take evasive action.

[Majestik 909]

Woodenboat - approach is everything. When I see a convoy, several miles away, I begin my set-up immediately. I try to approach at a 45 degree angle to the target, slightly ahead and I favor a starboard side attack to a port side attack if given the choice. I run surfaced at flank speed for as long as possible. Often approaching decks awash. I generally submerge at around 5,000 meters from target.

As you approach, keep adding rudder as needed to stay on an angular path to the target and keep closing up the distance.

By 1,000 meters (roughly the same unit as a yard) I already have chosen my target and plotted my initial solution. On tankers, I set depth at around 10 feet. On smaller vessels and destroyers 6 feet is my depth setting. I usually attack the first two ships in the convoy, then circle around and attack the remaining ships head-on.

Many would attack the last two ships first. However, I have found that by doing so, you are often out-paced by the remaining ships. Attacking the lead ships allows you to converge on an approaching target at a high rate of combined closing speed.

Many will try to set up a "ladder" style approach, shooting through a convoy, at multiple targets, as it passes by. I believe this method to yield a higher percentage of misses than manuvering and engaging from 400 meters.

Escorts will always come out to meet you if they detect you. My approach is the same for escorts as it is unescorted convoys only I will fire upon the lead escort from around 600 meters. If there are 4 destroyers or less, I will often sink all of them first and then prey on the unescorted vessels.

If msny destroyers are present, I will then generally penetrate the convoy and hang out around a slow moving freighter and use it as a shield will attacking other ships. For example, if a destroyer is on the port side, I will cross beneath and attack targets on the freighter's starboard side and the cross back beneath it.

Some of the American boats have acoustic torpedoes. If this is the case, then perhaps a rear approach on a similar bearing would give you good results.

Don't be afraid of escorts. Even with TMO they can still be destroyed with relative ease. As long as you have ship's afloat, you have a way to play hide and seek with them.

If you are in the open ocean, evading tactics are important to master. Depth and course changes are the key. Once contact is lost, destroyers will often go dead slow or dead stop to try and re-engage. Take advantage of a stationary escort. Approach at 1/3 and go for a broadside shot. Once they are moving, dead ahead or dead astern is a good method of killing them.

Additionally, be sure to watch your stern during an attack. I have had escorts circle around while I am on approach. I have sank many with a stern tube shot into the bow.

Circle around a stricken ship and be quick to attack any vessel approaching to effect a rescue.

I cannot stress enough to use other ship's as cover. Never take on an escort in open water if it is not absolutely necessary.

Playing peek-a-boo works.....

Good luck and good hunting - U-847

[Aktungbby]

Raptor82! & Fatbooboo!:Kaleun_Salute:

[dashyr]

So do most people use the manual targeting or automatic? I am trying the manual, and it is hard, and this is just the training mission. I send the bearing, range, ship type, estimated AOB, speed, then an updated bearing and range, and can't seem to get any hits, even on a broadside target inside 1000 yards with a spread of torpedos. Should I not update the bearing and range? Or is that what the Position Keeper is for, and should I turn that on before anything else?

If your using the ingame speed estimate it might be your problem. They tend to screw up the speed a lot. The speed of the destroyer in the training range is 10 knots if i remember well. You can also put a mark on the map where the target is then wait 1:37m and make another mark on him. If the distance between marks is 250y . multiply it by 2 and it becomes 500. well its 5 knots baby! also the aob is as the TARGET sees you and not as YOU see the target. That could be your problem too.

[woodenboat]

You can also put a mark on the map where the target is then wait 1:37m and make another mark on him. If the distance between marks is 250y . multiply it by 2 and it becomes 500. well its 5 knots baby! also the aob is as the TARGET sees you and not as YOU see the target. That could be your problem too.

THANK YOU! This is excellent information! Since I'm brand new, I still have not mastered manual aiming. So, I've been playing with automatic aiming just to get familiar with the other aspects of the game. But I have badly needed to have some sort of reasonable estimate of my opponent's speed. I mean... how else do you know where to position yourself for a clean shot? Up until now, I've been taking a SWAG at it and often i find myself spending way too much time chasing a target that turns out to be outrunning me. Very frustrating. (BTW, SWAG means "super wild ass guess.")

THEREFORE, looking at your 1:37m formula, let me ask if this would also work? Watching the target for 3:14m would tell us the speed without having to multiply by two - right? Or should I STILL multiply by two? So, if a target travels 1200 yards in 3 minutes and 14 seconds, he's going 12 knots. Am I correct on this? If I am correct, this means that, if I am underwater and my target is crossing my bow at 12 knots, I might just as well let him go and wait for a juicier target because I likely cannot put on enough speed to get ahead for a clean shot. In one game, I was chasing down a couple of potential targets without this knowledge. I found myself in an absolutely perfect targeting position .... FOR THEM TO SHOOT ME! It turned out to be a pair of destroyers and I did not survive. This was also before I learned to recognize between black sonar echos and blue sonar echos. You learn real fast when you're constantly getting killed. :O: I think I should still multiply by two. 250 yards in 1:37 is the same is 500 yards in 3:14. Jeeze I really am NOT good with math.

[dashyr]

THANK YOU! This is excellent information! Since I'm brand new, I still have not mastered manual aiming. So, I've been playing with automatic aiming just to get familiar with the other aspects of the game. But I have badly needed to have some sort of reasonable estimate of my opponent's speed. I mean... how else do you know where to position yourself for a clean shot? Up until now, I've been taking a SWAG at it and often i find myself spending way too much time chasing a target that turns out to be outrunning me. Very frustrating. (BTW, SWAG means "super wild ass guess.")

THEREFORE, looking at your 1:37m formula, let me ask if this would also work? Watching the target for 3:14m would tell us the speed without having to multiply by two - right? Or should I STILL multiply by two? So, if a target travels 1200 yards in 3 minutes and 14 seconds, he's going 12 knots. Am I correct on this? If I am correct, this means that, if I am underwater and my target is crossing my bow at 12 knots, I might just as well let him go and wait for a juicier target because I likely cannot put on enough speed to get ahead for a clean shot. In one game, I was chasing down a couple of potential targets without this knowledge. I found myself in an absolutely perfect targeting position .... FOR THEM TO SHOOT ME! It turned out to be a pair of destroyers and I did not survive. This was also before I learned to recognize between black sonar echos and blue sonar echos. You learn real fast when you're constantly getting killed. :O: I think I should still multiply by two. 250 yards in 1:37 is the same is 500 yards in 3:14. Jeeze I really am NOT good with math.

Those are the formulas for speed.
(Distance traveled in 3:14) x 10
1:37 x 20
From very close range I often just go for like 38s and do X40. As a rule of thumb. The longer you wait. The more precise it is.

Also when attacking convoy. BE VERY careful of your distance and speed. Escort can hear you way before they actually see you. Wich is why the most common strategy is to get ahead of them then wait close to their estimated course.

Don't try to catch up on them. Plan an interception course.

[dashyr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k5yJI6Z5AU

This is an old video. But, it is a very good example of how to plan an attack when in an interception position. He also make use of the 3:14 technique. There is also an excellent written guide in the download section.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1647
This is a rather advanced guide using the ticks on the periscope. But, it is REALLY precise.


Personally I play Operation Monsun fully modded. So im on a uboat and use a too called RAOBF to calculate all from a visual contact. wich look like this
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3716/9377074798_0fa64065bc_b.jpg

Looks intimidating. But I can calculate the speed/AOB/RANGE very quickly without ever using the map. The RAOBF do most calculation for you. If you prefer uboats to fleet boats. You should use this mod ASAP. It is great! The RAOBF is that weird ring device around the periscope.

[De Ruyter]

If your using the ingame speed estimate it might be your problem. They tend to screw up the speed a lot. The speed of the destroyer in the training range is 10 knots if i remember well. You can also put a mark on the map where the target is then wait 1:37m and make another mark on him. If the distance between marks is 250y . multiply it by 2 and it becomes 500. well its 5 knots baby! also the aob is as the TARGET sees you and not as YOU see the target. That could be your problem too.

Could be the speed issue, I think I understand the AOB part of it. Of course, my estimate may be way off. I take their angle to me and subtract that from 360 to get my angle to them. If I see them at my 330, I put the AOB at 30, and I think I factored in the Starboard vs Port side of it. But I did not know about the tubes opening, I am probably getting a number of mistakes on the attack. I don't get much time to work on it with college and work and everything, so it may take me a while to figure this out.
I guess I am also hurrying things because I am trying to sink him in the first pass. I could stand to work on my stalking techniques, if I remember right it is a Mogami-class cruiser, so it is not like he is listening for me. That will have to be when I get some time, I will try to become comfortable in torpedo attacks before I actually try to take out the convoy.

[dashyr]

Could be the speed issue, I think I understand the AOB part of it. Of course, my estimate may be way off. I take their angle to me and subtract that from 360 to get my angle to them. If I see them at my 330, I put the AOB at 30, and I think I factored in the Starboard vs Port side of it. But I did not know about the tubes opening, I am probably getting a number of mistakes on the attack. I don't get much time to work on it with college and work and everything, so it may take me a while to figure this out.
I guess I am also hurrying things because I am trying to sink him in the first pass. I could stand to work on my stalking techniques, if I remember right it is a Mogami-class cruiser, so it is not like he is listening for me. That will have to be when I get some time, I will try to become comfortable in torpedo attacks before I actually try to take out the convoy.

In fact you must do exactly what you do but from the target' POV. The AOB is from the target, not you. if you got a perfect 90 angle on a enemy as an example. Following your logic the AOB would be 0. But from the target it would be 90. the correct aob in this scenario is 90. Another example if youre right behind the target ship AOB isnt 0 but 180

AOB must be understood as being at wich angle you would see you sub in relation of the bow of the ship if you were one of the poor souls of the target ship.

[De Ruyter]

In fact you must do exactly what you do but from the target' POV. The AOB is from the target, not you. if you got a perfect 90 angle on a enemy as an example. Following your logic the AOB would be 0. But from the target it would be 90. the correct aob in this scenario is 90. Another example if youre right behind the target ship AOB isnt 0 but 180

AOB must be understood as being at wich angle you would see you sub in relation of the bow of the ship if you were one of the poor souls of the target ship.

Right, if the ship is dead ahead of me, I get that I would set AOB to 90. Perhaps my math logic does not hold. Perhaps in the 330 scenario, I should set AOB to 60. That actually seems like it would make more sense, subtract the difference from 90. I don't know, I will have to work out the trigonometry of it. That may only hold if we are approaching at right angles. Considering that I am studying engineering, trig should not be that much of an issue.:know:

[dashyr]

To calculate the aob from the map its easy. Just draw the target couse then check the angle from its course to you. This is your AOB. But if you wish to be accurate from a visual only perspective. You have to use the ticks on the periscope. But thats more complex since you need to calculate the aspect ratio. But if you play with the map updates on, after taking the speed with the 1:37 method. Simply draw a line using those mark and you will have the cource.

You can hardly be more accurate than when using the map. especially with AOB.

[De Ruyter]

To calculate the aob from the map its easy. Just draw the target couse then check the angle from its course to you. This is your AOB. But if you wish to be accurate from a visual only perspective. You have to use the ticks on the periscope. But thats more complex since you need to calculate the aspect ratio. But if you play with the map updates on, after taking the speed with the 1:37 method. Simply draw a line using those mark and you will have the cource.

You can hardly be more accurate than when using the map. especially with AOB.

Now if I do that at the start with the position keeper on, if I calculate the AOB right off the bat with the map, the position keeper keeps track of the change in position, right? I don't want to be constantly going back to the map to do calculations as the position changes.

[Red Devil]

My point is to ignore any harbour photo recces. The game does not penalise you and they are a waste of time. Go to a locale nearby and go sinking the darn ships.

For reality sake, try them out but success is less than about 30%. And it also depends on level of difficulty. Either way, ignore them.

[De Ruyter]

Now if I do that at the start with the position keeper on, if I calculate the AOB right off the bat with the map, the position keeper keeps track of the change in position, right? I don't want to be constantly going back to the map to do calculations as the position changes.

I figured out that the stadimeter can help with range and bearing estimations, and finally sunk the cruiser in training. I never had a good solution, though, I am assuming the button lights up when it is good? I put two torps into him, and he had a nice list. After several misses, I finally got a bearing, but saw he was turning, so I set my offset left and scored the final hit. Blew those planes right off his deck. I will have to do this some more before I take on a DD.

[woodenboat]

My point is to ignore any harbour photo recces. The game does not penalise you and they are a waste of time. Go to a locale nearby and go sinking the darn ships..

Absolutely!! I did a recon mission a night or two ago and took photos of everything in the harbor, including one of those Kawanishi Mavis seaplanes that was sitting in there. I had already shot the destroyers off of my tail on my way in. (I'm getting rather good at that now.) So, I knew there wouldn't be any interference from them while I took my photos. I got to thinking, "What the heck do I need to do a recon for when I can just sink everything in sight?"

So I did. I even surfaced and shot up that Mavis. It felt good. :smug: I'm glad that Mavis is just made up of pixels because otherwise, it would break my heart to shoot up such a cool airplane.

[Majestik 909]

Nice work!