Who Started World War II? [Archive] - Page 3

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u crank

01-18-16, 07:33 PM

In short, two wrongs don't make a Reich.

:haha:

Reich you are.

Kptlt. Neuerburg

01-18-16, 07:54 PM

Don't mind me I'm just here to watch the show!
http://s6.postimg.org/i4cppw2td/1395134734018.gif

Rockstar

01-18-16, 10:27 PM

oh we all know who started it dont we now?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QaEbtIA0ykQ/TYICMMtREwI/AAAAAAAAJk0/GVHUMoD2-bo/s400/neville%2Bchamberlain-after%2Bpeace%2Btalks-england%2Bprime%2Bminister-plane-aircraft.jpg

Betonov

01-19-16, 03:28 AM

I think, to sum up where we are so far in this thread...

The Treaty of Versailles was very unfair to Germany and did help the Nazi party rise to power, however Hitlers solutions to the loss of German territories also directly contributed to the outbreak of the Second World War.

In short, two wrongs don't make a Reich.

:shucks:

Exactlly.
And if Germany continued the path Stressman charted the treaty would have been nullified by diplomatic means right up until 1940's.
But the painting corporal had to happen so...

Catfish

01-19-16, 05:25 AM

Perhaps, but it's a quantification, if someone can be as deeply in denial to think that the Holocaust either didn't happen or was some sort of allied forgery, then the rest of their work can hardly be taken at face value.

Fahnenbohm's "answer":
Easy
Then a pic of the joker.

What does that mean, this is not answer, not a joke, nor is it any useful comment ?? :hmm2::hmmm:

Fahnenbohn

01-19-16, 05:41 AM

Fahnenbohm's "answer": "Easy". Then a pic of the joker. What does that mean ??

That means : First of all, you are affirming that Germans were liars and murderers, and providing evidence that contratict this, is prohibited (JOKER). Thus, the debate is impossible. History is chained.

For those who want to open their mind : http://www.allworldwars.com/German%20White%20Book.html

Tchocky

01-19-16, 05:48 AM

From the introduction to your link -

Since, however, our enemies are untiring in their efforts to conceal the truth by means of lying propaganda and to mislead the world at large, not only as regards the causes of the war but also concerning their aims, it seems essential to furnish once again by authentic official documents the irrefutable proof that Britain, and Britain alone, was responsible for the war which she deliberately brought about in order to annihilate Germany.You don't know the difference between history and propaganda.

You don't know the difference between fact and opinion.

Can it.

Cybermat47

01-19-16, 05:57 AM

That means : First of all, you are affirming that Germans were liars and murderers, and providing evidence that contratict this, is prohibited (JOKER). Thus, the debate is impossible. History is chained.

For those who want to open their mind : http://www.allworldwars.com/German%20White%20Book.html

Please explain why you posted a picture of the DC supervillain known as the Joker, as portrayed by Heath Ledger.

Jimbuna

01-19-16, 06:22 AM

For those who want to open their mind : http://www.allworldwars.com/German%20White%20Book.html

Is this the 'evidence' we have been awaiting translation of?

Fahnenbohn

01-19-16, 06:29 AM

Is this the 'evidence' we have been awaiting translation of?

No. But this is one of the sources.

EDIT : see here : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2372679&postcount=148

*

Takeda Shingen

01-19-16, 08:00 AM

Is this the 'evidence' we have been awaiting translation of?

You act surprised. Surely you've caught on to the reality that even after 34 pages and 510 posts there is no "evidence" forthcoming. I would also like to think that, as people who are not new to moderating, you and Steve would be prescient enough to know that none was coming in the first place. Not that this train wreck of a thread hasn't been an entertaining read. Still, it was a predictable disaster, albeit one of your own making. Doubly so once it was inexplicably opened again.

But I digress. Bring in the gladiators.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B0CyOAO8y0

les green01

01-19-16, 08:39 AM

well this tread reminds me of the old saying wish in one hand crap in the other see which one gets fills up first or don't pee down my back and tell me it is raining

Sailor Steve

01-19-16, 10:01 AM

Still, it was a predictable disaster, albeit one of your own making.
It was closed, not because there is no evidence forthcoming or because it's a disaster, but because people were turning to baiting tactics.

Doubly so once it was inexplicably opened again.
Not inexplicably, but explained. I promised that he would get a chance to present his documents, and I intend to keep that promise. Where it goes from there remains to be seen.

Takeda Shingen

01-19-16, 10:05 AM

It was closed, not because there is no evidence forthcoming or because it's a disaster, but because people were turning to baiting tactics.

Of course it did. How could it not? Both predictable and a disaster. There was no question about how this was going to end. You yourself stated early on that you had a bad feeling about this. Still you allowed it. And chaos ensued.

Not inexplicably, but explained. I promised that he would get a chance to present his documents, and I intend to keep that promise. Where it goes from there remains to be seen.No, completely inexplicable. He had a week to present his argument. That's an eternity. You then shut it down because you said that things got out of hand. Then you opened it because, evidently, a week was not long enough to present an argument on the interwebs. But by all means, keep it going. This is rather enjoyable. On with the show!

Sailor Steve

01-19-16, 10:14 AM

I also said that the discussion would be about Who Started WW2 and nothing else. Consider this an informal warning. Stick to the subject or stay out of it.

Takeda Shingen

01-19-16, 10:16 AM

I also said that the discussion would be about Who Started WW2 and nothing else. Consider this an informal warning. Stick to the subject or stay out of it.

Do what you think you have to. Don't threaten. Act. And I am certainly not going to change or refrain from sharing my opinion about what is going on here because you don't like it. If you want to ban me, then do it. It is no loss to me. I don't value posting here.

MLF

01-19-16, 10:43 AM

It was closed, not because there is no evidence forthcoming or because it's a disaster, but because people were turning to baiting tactics.

Steve

I have PM'd you.

Regards,

MLF

Oberon

01-19-16, 11:40 AM

Mayhap it would be best for this thread to be locked until Fahnenbohn has accumulated this evidence, he can then PM Steve, Jim or Neal to unlock it and post at his leisure?
I think, really, we've exhausted most discussion on this topic now until the said evidence is forthcoming.

Jimbuna

01-19-16, 01:12 PM

A great deal of time, discussion and effort has taken place between Steve and I (Neal on occasion as well) over the course of this thread and said subject matter.

Was it wrong to initially close the thread? Maybe, maybe not.

Was it wrong to reopen this thread? Maybe, maybe not.

What is correct is the fact that this thread has been subject to continuous scrutiny and debate with the sole aim that it conforms with the rules of the forum.

The thread will have a finite lifespan of a further week or so to give the obvious party sufficient time to produce translated evidence as was originally promised.

In the meantime Steve and I would ask that no attempts at baiting or similarly unacceptable posting is made.

If anyone disagrees with a certain viewpoint then feel free to do so without resorting to insults and name calling.

There is always a simpler option of ignoring and not responding.

Failure to abide by the above means individuals are running the risk of being subject to remedial action as has already been demonstrated today.

Tchocky

01-19-16, 01:45 PM

I want to recut the A-Team opening with you guys in it now.:woot:

Fahnenbohn

01-19-16, 02:07 PM

If anyone disagrees with a certain viewpoint then feel free to do so without resorting to insults and name calling.

Yes, this is the minimum in a democracy ... :yep:

The thread will have a finite lifespan of a further week or so to give the obvious party sufficient time to produce translated evidence as was originally promised.

First, I didn't intend to open this thread. But as Sailor Steve didn't let me the choice, I have to produce my evidence. A week is too short. Let's say rather 3 or 4. For now, you can close this thread. I will send a PM to you or Sailor Steve when my document is ready. I'm working in RL life ... and I think I am too kind to spend my time in translation, especially for people who only seek to defame me ... But I'm sure there are more honest people who will read it.

Regards,

F.

Jimbuna

01-19-16, 02:20 PM

Yes, this is the minimum in a democracy ... :yep:

First, I didn't intend to open this thread. But as Sailor Steve didn't let me the choice, I have to produce my evidence. A week is too short. Let's say rather 3 or 4. For now, you can close this thread. I will send a PM to you or Sailor Steve when my document is ready. I'm working in RL life ... and I think I am too kind to spend my time in translation, especially for people who only seek to defame me ... But I'm sure there are more honest people who will read it.

Regards,

F.

I tell you what, we'll stick to the decision as posted in #519 and deal with any outcomes that may materialise.

Fahnenbohn

01-19-16, 02:40 PM

I tell you what, we'll stick to the decision as posted in #519 and deal with any outcomes that may materialise.

OK. For you guys, in order to console yourself to not be able to talk to me for some time, I would advise you to hear Chopin : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQweYoIFp7Q

This is good for the soul and the brain. :up:

See you soon !

MLF

01-19-16, 02:45 PM

OK. For you guys, in order to console yourself to not be able to talk to me for some time, I would advise you to hear Chopin : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQweYoIFp7Q

This is good for the soul and the brain. :up:

For once I agree with Fahnenbohn:yep: :yeah:

Eichhörnchen

01-19-16, 02:58 PM

Yes. Beautiful...

tomfon

01-19-16, 03:30 PM

I wonder why the Western Allies (United Kingdom & France) did not launch a major offensive against the German divisions in Poland, notwithstanding the terms of their alliances with the country. The Kriegsmarine, on the other hand, had launched an all out attack against Britain's merchant fleet and the Soviets invaded Finland right after Poland was invaded!

Could it be that they were trying to avoid war? I read somewhere in Wikipedia that France and Britain could present a combined force of approximately 110 divisions at the time, while the German divisions in Poland were 23. Actually, it was Alfred Jodl who said that the reason the German forces did not collapse in the year 1939 was that the Anglo-French divisions remained inactive against the 23 German divisions!

I find the Anglo-French attitude as strange as the fact that Hitler ordered his forces to stop their advance and let BEF to flee. Good for the British though.

Oberon

01-19-16, 04:05 PM

Eichhörnchen

01-19-16, 04:08 PM

MaDef

01-19-16, 04:23 PM

I'm rather partial to Tchaikovsky (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbxgYlcNxE8) ;)

Oberon

01-19-16, 04:24 PM

I'm sure I've read somewhere that Hitler was persuaded to hold back at Dunkirk simply to give Goering an opportunity to show what his Stukas could do, and that he had no intention of allowing the BEF to escape.

It also didn't help that the Panzers involved in the dash to the Channel were operating on the very edge of their supply train, even out-running it in many instances. I think Hitler probably couldn't believe his luck, that the vaunted French and British armies had been caught so completely off-guard by the Ardennes breakthrough and the extent of the confusion that prevented any success by the Allied forces from being fully exploited.
In short, I think Hitler was waiting for the other boot to drop and didn't want his panzers to be caught out of supply or encircled when it happened.

tomfon

01-19-16, 04:30 PM

Logistics really, in order to get supplies to Poland you would have to go past the German coast, which would have all manner of aerial and submarine threats waiting to sink transports. The Arctic convoys would later discover how much of a threat such a route would have faced.

It wouldn't be necessary for them to go past the German coast. An attack to the German borders probing Germany's defenses would shake things in a way, i guess.

In addition, Britain and France were reluctant to send their forces to Norway too. Of course, Hitler took the chance.

There (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War) it is! The Saar offensive and all. It partly describes the French attack in the Saarland which was cancelled only after a few km.

The strange thing is and i quote from wikipedia:

General Siegfried Westphal stated, that if the French had attacked in force in September 1939 the German army "could only have held out for one or two weeks." - World at War - "France Falls" - Thames TV

Funny, huh?

Fahnenbohn

01-19-16, 05:25 PM

I'm rather partial to Tchaikovsky (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbxgYlcNxE8) ;)

Funny : at 5:31, the orchestra is playing the French anthem. ;)

And I like the WARNING below ... :)

Fahnenbohn

01-20-16, 03:40 AM

You don't know the difference between history and propaganda.

Just a little observation : propaganda is not necessary a lie : Katyn.
So, just saying that "it's propaganda", doesn't demonstrate if it is right or wrong.

If the official documents show that you are right, then why not publish them to demonstrate it ?

Catfish

01-20-16, 04:36 AM

Propaganda of course plays an important role.

National political colour books are though not "evidence", they are published by all nations to give orientation of political guidelines of the time, and also to justify own political or military action.

Quoting the german "Weißbuch" alone will not verify or prove anything, but merely give a hint to the political thinking of Germany, or what it wanted to make its people and other nations believe.
Of course the german "Weißbuch" is never mentioned.. or at least i saw it for the first time to be quoted or linked, here.

So, to get the real view one should read all those books of different nations, and then additionally find real evidence and verified reports to get an estimated overview..

(OT what i found really interesting is what Germany tried in WW1, to counter belgian Raemaker's propaganda. Raemaker was a genuine german-hater, who did all he could for the Entente propaganda of the time, reporting incidents "witnessed" by himself that never took place. He never even was in Belgium before and during WW1, but in London. Germany never succeeded, and Raemaker's "reports" are still used as "evidence", today)

Cybermat47

01-20-16, 04:38 AM

If the official documents show that you are right, then why not publish them to demonstrate it ?

If your documents show that you are right, then why not publish them to demonstrate it?

We can use Google translate. Stop stalling, and publish the documents.

HunterICX

01-20-16, 04:52 AM

If the official documents show that you are right, then why not publish them to demonstrate it ?

First of all, it's you who have to provide yours to back up all those claims you've made.

Second, read an actual history book and you'll find references to these official documents, evidence, testimonies and photos that'll back them up and can easily be found on the web.

Third, you will just dismiss or ignore them as you've shown again and again already in this thread as it to being created by ''The Allied History fakers''.

Stop wasting time trying to re-arrange the roles here as it's YOU who has to provide and you've only got a week left so ''tick-tock-tick-tock''

Fahnenbohn

01-20-16, 05:02 AM

If your documents show that you are right, then why not publish them to demonstrate it ? Stop stalling, and publish the documents.

First of all, it's you who have to provide yours to back up all those claims you've made.

Be patient, I'm working on it.

Cybermat47

01-20-16, 05:35 AM

Be patient, I'm working on it.

As I said, we can use Google Translate to translate the documents ourselves. So release them before I get bored.

Fahnenbohn

01-20-16, 05:44 AM

As I said, we can use Google Translate to translate the documents ourselves. So release them before I get bored.

No. They are too much complexe, and you won't be able to understand them. I'm working with someone who speaks English and who is correcting my translation as I progress. So, you have to wait.

Dowly

01-20-16, 06:02 AM

Don't forget to list the sources the books use, otherwise they are just opinion pieces.

tomfon

01-20-16, 06:44 AM

Don't forget to list the sources the books use, otherwise they are just opinion pieces.

I second that.:up:

Fahnenbohn

01-20-16, 08:10 AM

Don't forget to list the sources the books use, otherwise they are just opinion pieces.

Je n'y manquerai pas.

Rockin Robbins

01-20-16, 09:48 AM

@ Sailor Steve : You see ? :nope: Impossible discussion. This is MAGIC !
It is the truth that you seek to exclude from the monologue you think is a conversation.

The one who prepared for the war he would make is Hitler and his sock puppet Germany. Germany prepared to attack the Allies. The Allies did not prepare to attack Germany.

Donitz goes into great detail in his book about the preparations for war in the middle to late 1930s, the timetable for such a war (timetables are made by the aggressor, by the way, for those keeping score) and the number of U-boats he thought were necessary for Britain's defeat, years before any war was started (by Germany) and while Germany and Britain were at peace and Hitler slyly singing Kumbaya in your above quoted "disarm your enemy" Kumbaya speech.

The words sincere and Hitler do not EVER belong in the same sentence. His whole career was a litany of seizing power, deception of friends and enemies and persuasion by brute force.

And, Fahrenbahn, you also blindly take every word Hitler says as hearfelt truth and every word said by those who know better as deceptive. There is no conversation here, but lots of comedy. Good thing you have no power or influence over anything. You'd have to learn that you would be stopped no matter what the cost. You couldn't afford to defend yourself against the consolidated resources of the rest of humanity any more than Hitler, who was much more capable, could.

The end would be the same. John F Kennedy said "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty." He was not kidding. He was totally sincere. He echoed the thoughts and wishes of his people. Hitler never did.

August

01-20-16, 10:48 AM

It is the truth that you seek to exclude from the monologue you think is a conversation.

The one who prepared for the war he would make is Hitler and his sock puppet Germany. Germany prepared to attack the Allies. The Allies did not prepare to attack Germany.

Donitz goes into great detail in his book about the preparations for war in the middle to late 1930s, the timetable for such a war (timetables are made by the aggressor, by the way, for those keeping score) and the number of U-boats he thought were necessary for Britain's defeat, years before any war was started (by Germany) and while Germany and Britain were at peace and Hitler slyly singing Kumbaya in your above quoted "disarm your enemy" Kumbaya speech.

The words sincere and Hitler do not EVER belong in the same sentence. His whole career was a litany of seizing power, deception of friends and enemies and persuasion by brute force.

And, Fahrenbahn, you also blindly take every word Hitler says as hearfelt truth and every word said by those who know better as deceptive. There is no conversation here, but lots of comedy. Good thing you have no power or influence over anything. You'd have to learn that you would be stopped no matter what the cost. You couldn't afford to defend yourself against the consolidated resources of the rest of humanity any more than Hitler, who was much more capable, could.

The end would be the same. John F Kennedy said "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty." He was not kidding. He was totally sincere. He echoed the thoughts and wishes of his people. Hitler never did.

Damn well said! :salute:

Fahnenbohn

01-20-16, 11:21 AM

Betonov

01-20-16, 11:54 AM

The words sincere and Hitler do not EVER belong in the same sentence. His whole career was a litany of seizing power, deception of friends and enemies and persuasion by brute force.

Sums it up quite nicely.

Oberon

01-20-16, 12:11 PM

As I said, we can use Google Translate to translate the documents ourselves. So release them before I get bored.

http://www.war-movies.info/warmovies/thirteen-days-4.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxDGtu-aMi0

Fahnenbohn

01-20-16, 12:31 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxDGtu-aMi0

http://www.forumsig.org/images/smilies/new_extra/offtopic-929432.gif

Betonov

01-20-16, 12:41 PM

http://www.forumsig.org/images/smilies/new_extra/offtopic-929432.gif

Until you prove your mumbo-jumbo ''Hitler was a good guy'' phantasm so are you

Rockin Robbins

01-20-16, 12:47 PM

:rotfl2: That's the contrary.
You also share Hitler's complete lack of judgment in sneering at the forces that guaranteed his well-deserved trip to the grave. Those who worship brute force will die by the application of brute force upon them, and beyond their wildest imaginations. The world will not miss them.

That is the story of World War II.

Cybermat47

01-20-16, 04:14 PM

Well said Rockin :salute:

razark

01-20-16, 05:59 PM

:rotfl2: That's the contrary.
No it's not! :smug:

Buddahaid

01-20-16, 08:55 PM

@Fahnenbohn. I've read enough of this joke. If you are serious about those papers put them up, if not, stop the strip tease. It's boring. :shifty:

Rockin Robbins

01-20-16, 09:19 PM

@Fahnenbohn. I've read enough of this joke. If you are serious about those papers put them up, if not, stop the strip tease. It's boring. :shifty:
Buddahaid, at least give him the dignity of misspelling his name "Fahrenbahn" he is because we dub him so.

Actually World War II started because when Hitler was a little bully England and France were too wimpy to break his nose when he occupied the Rhineland in 1936, when he annexed Austria in 1938 and when he overran Czechoslovakia in 1939.

When he knifed Poland later in 1939 he had already built up this tissue paper effigy of himself as invincible. A bloody nose was no longer enough to deter his lust. Only his death would suffice.

Had Britain and France seen him for the filthy rapist he was in 1936 and invaded the Rhineland to take his toys away and remove Hitler from power (hopefully to remove him from life) World War II never would have happened. Instead, because they were prepared to endure any humility to avoid war, Hitler was left free to follow his plans of destruction.

The avoidance of war is not the highest achievement of man. There are wars which must be fought and won completely and decisively. World War II was one such war. It ended justly for victors and defeated.

Steve, I think you may safely close this thread as no proof is coming and he's had time to humiliate himself by its absence. Fahrenbahn ist kaput.

Dowly

01-21-16, 05:21 AM

Steve, I think you may safely close this thread as no proof is coming and he's had time to humiliate himself by its absence. Fahrenbahn ist kaput.He's got a week to produce his evidence.

Onkel Neal

01-21-16, 09:18 AM

Until you prove your mumbo-jumbo ''Hitler was a good guy'' phantasm so are you

Does anyone believe anything is going to be proven by this "translation" of "official documents" by an anonymous forum poster with admitted sympathies toward Nazi Germany?:shifty:

Oberon

01-21-16, 09:26 AM

Does anyone believe anything is going to be proven by this "translation" of "official documents" by an anonymous forum poster with admitted sympathies toward Nazi Germany?:shifty:

Exactly, besides everyone knows the real cause of World War Two:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/warheaven_warearth12.htm

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9ow51wQM61rvfl9i.jpg

(with thanks to HunterICX who found this gem but didn't want to post it at the time)

Jimbuna

01-21-16, 10:37 AM

Stop wasting time trying to re-arrange the roles here as it's YOU who has to provide and you've only got a week left so ''tick-tock-tick-tock''

Steve, I think you may safely close this thread as no proof is coming and he's had time to humiliate himself by its absence. Fahrenbahn ist kaput.

He's got a week to produce his evidence.

It has already been stated...

The thread will have a finite lifespan of a further week or so to give the obvious party sufficient time to produce translated evidence as was originally promised.

That time is shortly after 18:00 GMT on Tuesday 26th.

Does anyone believe anything is going to be proven by this "translation" of "official documents" by an anonymous forum poster with admitted sympathies toward Nazi Germany?:shifty:

Probably most definitely not but we did agree earlier that he would be given the chance to put his case forward provided he didn't breach the forum rules.

I'm on Skype atm if you're able.

Betonov

01-21-16, 10:54 AM

Onkel Neal

01-21-16, 11:01 AM

Probably most definitely not but we did agree earlier that he would be given the chance to put his case forward provided he didn't breach the forum rules.

That's fine with me, I guess there will some entertainment value.

Mr Quatro

01-21-16, 11:36 AM

Shouldn't this thread be moved over to: "The last person to post wins" :yep:

Rockin Robbins

01-21-16, 12:06 PM

Does anyone believe anything is going to be proven by this "translation" of "official documents" by an anonymous forum poster with admitted sympathies toward Nazi Germany?:shifty:
At best, if the man posts anything but taunts, is that he will post the translation of a speech given by Hitler saying nice things in order to gamble that his enemies will believe what he says and he will stab them in the back.

Fahrenwhoseits entire line of simulated reasoning so far has been to trot out the words of a liar and pretend that they were spoken in good faith. I wouldn't believe Hitler if he told me what he had for lunch. Therefore no words of Hitler can be used to prove he was a great guy who should have been loved by the whole world for his kindness.

Fahrenwhoseit is banking not on us who have a good grasp of history, but on the majority who believe that the world began with their birth and who cannot pick apart the lies he posts. The aim is to translate Hitler into another Napoleon, to be wistfully remembered, not seen as the hateful monster that he really was.

It's especially cool that these Hitler wannabes are so stupid that they deny the holocaust. Which is very intersting and weird because Hitler did not hide the holocaust. He telegraphed that was a primary aim before he took power, Trumpeted it as a supreme achievement of the "master race" while he was in power. The holocaust began before World War II because it was not a secondary effect of the war, it was Hitler's primary motivation! He would kill these people who deny his greatest achievement because they would be traitors to Hitler. It's just astounding how twisted these Neo Nazis are. Their very twistedness guarantees they will never succeed.

In view of that I think the proper action is to close the thread and let it sink into the anonymity of forgetfulness. Even better would be its erasure from the forum entirely as I believe it reflects badly on Subsim even to have the repudiated words of a Hitler apologist hosted here. The world is a much better place with Hitler dead and Subsim would be better if this thread were not part of its archives. Even buried it could be dredged up with search engines and inspire these pitiful sickos.

Dowly

01-21-16, 12:16 PM

There are much worse things to be found in the dusty archives of SUBSIM than this thread. :yep:

Fahnenbohn

01-21-16, 12:35 PM

Guys, I want you to stop polluting my thread.

http://www.forumsig.org/images/smilies/panneaux/panneau012.gif

Betonov

01-21-16, 12:38 PM

Guys, I want you to stop polluting my thread.

http://www.forumsig.org/images/smilies/panneaux/panneau012.gif

Your idol polluted this world with death and missery so now we are polluting your thread with facts and mockery.
Poetic justice

Fahnenbohn

01-21-16, 12:44 PM

My first document is almost translated. I will post it when all the idiots and insulting posts are removed. As I have the right to ask, in accordance with the rules fixed by the moderators.

Betonov

01-21-16, 12:56 PM

Your kind lost the war 71 years ago.
You don't have the right to call anyone an idiot.
You also don't have the right to ask or demand anything. You may have the right to beg though.

Oberon

01-21-16, 01:03 PM

That time is shortly after 18:00 GMT on Tuesday 26th.

Probably just as well that this nonsense is wrapped up before the 27th, given what it is in the UK that day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_Memorial_Day_%28UK%29).

kraznyi_oktjabr

01-21-16, 01:15 PM

My first document is almost translated. I will post it when all the idiots and insulting posts are removed. As I have the right to ask, in accordance with the rules fixed by the moderators.Excellent. When you post translations (or link to them) could you also provide access to original language documents?

Thanks in advance!

Rockin Robbins

01-21-16, 01:16 PM

I agree that calling some a holocaust denier out of the blue as a provocation is wrong. However, in this case, the real offender has more than once specifically denied that the holocaust took place. When I stated that he is one, I simply stipulated what he introduced from his own free will.

My post referenced above is a sober, matter of fact, already established, reasoned argument that denying the holocaust is a repudiation of Adolph Hitler's clearly stated ambition and achievement: the murdering of every Jew he could round up. To Hitler it was something to brag about. The deniers would be disowned and probably would end up joining a concentration camp near them.

I have received a warning for stating the simple truth. I take the warning with pride and no apology will be offered. In fact, read my offending post (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2375496&postcount=562) again. John F Kennedy said "we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty." I endorse it and I endorse what I said above a hundred times. Sometimes it costs to tell the truth and we need to be prepared to pay the price. I pay it with a smile. One hundred million people paid with their lives for that truth between 1938 and 1945. I smile. They no longer can.

Jimbuna

01-21-16, 01:21 PM

Probably just as well that this nonsense is wrapped up before the 27th, given what it is in the UK that day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_Memorial_Day_%28UK%29).

^Precisely:yep:

Fahnenbohn

01-21-16, 01:49 PM

Excellent. When you post translations (or link to them) could you also provide access to original language documents?

Thanks in advance!

Yes, OK.

Rockin Robbins

01-21-16, 02:41 PM

As for my simply stipulating that Fahr... made the claim and Steve denying that he did so, here are some, but not all the holocaust denials by Fahr... in this thread:

Originally Posted by Cybermat47 http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2372116#post2372116)
11000000 people are known to have died in the Holocaust alone.
Originally posted by Fahr...That's absolutely wrong, but I don't have the right to talk about this subject on this forum.If revisionist thesis on Jews' extermination were wrong, it would be easy for historians to organize a debate in which they would eventually ridicule the liars. But what happens is the opposite ! The revisionist historians are asking for a debate for years, and the only answer is always : this historical fact is incontestable. So I say : we have the right to request proof of the official historians' competence prior to believe them. They have to debate... but now, it is forbidden ... strange, isn't it ?

But in the facts, that's what happens in France, because persecution is the ONLY answer to the revisionist's thesis, which is far from ridiculous and light. Some historians have worked over 50 years of their life on the subject.

This is obvious that you never heard about revisionists's thesis. Otherwise, you would not say that they are nasty liars ! ...

So Fahr...has repeatedly denied the holocaust. And others have taken him up on it without being warned because they were merely (as I have been) replying to a subject already opened by Fahr...
Not at all. Here in France, it's literally forbidden to express our opinions on certain historical subjects. Even historians are brought to justice. There is an OFFICIAL thesis (based on a contradictory story, by the bye), and you MUST believe in it.

Yes, exactly. But it is the only way to prevent a debate to take place.
If revisionist thesis on Jews' extermination were wrong, it would be easy for historians to organize a debate in which they would eventually ridicule the liars. But what happens is the opposite ! The revisionist historians are asking for a debate for years, and the only answer is always : this historical fact is incontestable. So I say : we have the right to request proof of the official historians' competence prior to believe them. They have to debate... but now, it is forbidden ... strange, isn't it ?

The re-education is of course a fact.
That does not automatically imply that it consisted partially or completely of outright lies.
Nor does it imply that the killings of minorities did not take place.
Some facts, please, and not a book list.

Also, i find it always "interesting", how - on one side - the killing is outright denied, but on the other hand the people claiming the denial obviously have not much sympathy for those minorities, may it be back then or today. So they do have an agenda, and one can easily deduct what would happen, if those people came to power again.

That's wrong. Even some Jewish intellectuals and rabbis admit that revisionits say the truth. And the only question here is : is it right or wrong ? and not : is it "good" or "bad".

Good, so don't say that what I say is absurd before I've started to speak.

For having a better idea on the official story, please see here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR8OKJ8JO3A

The video by David Irving is a video denying the holocaust, introduced by Fahr....

How many times must he specifically deny the holocaust existed before he becomes a holocaust denier? This is not even all the times Fahr... made this claim. I just stopped looking when this post got to ridiculous length. I say whatever standard you wish to erect, he has surpassed it. I stand on my factual statements. They are nothing but a repeating and repudiation of his clearly stated position in this thread.

Fahnenbohn

01-21-16, 02:46 PM

@ Roky Robins : You have very strange ideas about freedom of thought and expression ... :down:

Dowly

01-21-16, 02:54 PM

Yes, RR, everyone knows he is a holocaust denier, but that is not the subject of the thread as moderators have multiple times said.

Rockin Robbins

01-21-16, 03:14 PM

Yes, RR, everyone knows he is a holocaust denier, but that is not the subject of the thread as moderators have multiple times said.
I was warned for unprovokedly calling him a holocaust denier. Taunting is what it was called. When I replied on the thread, I was told that Fahr... never denied the holocaust, because if he had the thread would have been closed immediately and Fahr... shut down. This prompted me to examine the record, such examination revealing multiple times when Fahr... denied the holocaust, opening the subject for my fair rebuttal.

Now in a debate, when one party opens a subject he opens that subject for all to participate. You cannot just make naked statements of foolishness and prohibit rebuttal.

My rebuttal came in the form of pointing out the contradiction of Adolph's pride of accomplishment in the millions of murders, combined with his telegraphing of his intentions even before the war. Adolph's pride contrasts ludicrously with his worshipers' denial of their deity's crowning achievement. He would call them cowards. He would let them join those interned and murdered in the camps.

Now that bears directly on his claimed "evidence" that the Allies started World War II. Because if a party of a debate has no credibility by directly denying what Hitler was proudest of. Then nothing he can say will support his contention. So he has announced that he will produce "proof." He has given up all credibility. Therefore regardless of the nature of his "proof" it will not suffice to support his side of the debate.

Imagine! He denies that he denied the holocaust. What does that make him?

Fahnenbohn

01-21-16, 03:17 PM

RR, are you a policeman or functionary of the Ministry of Thought ?

Jimbuna

01-21-16, 03:19 PM

As for my simply stipulating that Fahr... made the claim and Steve denying that he did so, here are some, but not all the holocaust denials by Fahr... in this thread:

So Fahr...has repeatedly denied the holocaust. And others have taken him up on it without being warned because they were merely (as I have been) replying to a subject already opened by Fahr...

The video by David Irving is a video denying the holocaust, introduced by Fahr....

How many times must he specifically deny the holocaust existed before he becomes a holocaust denier? This is not even all the times Fahr... made this claim. I just stopped looking when this post got to ridiculous length. I say whatever standard you wish to erect, he has surpassed it. I stand on my factual statements. They are nothing but a repeating and repudiation of his clearly stated position in this thread.

I am currently at work and remain unimpressed at your posting content.

Assurances have been given in good faith and repeated requests have been made for acceptable behaviour on this thread.

Now out of respect for Neal and the moderation team pleas take note of the post recently made by Dowly.

I thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Rockin Robbins

01-21-16, 03:45 PM

Fahnenbohn

01-21-16, 03:47 PM

RR If you don't want to participate, go away and stop posting. Thx.

mapuc

01-21-16, 03:59 PM

I follow Steve's suggestion

I'm only writing this to say:

I await those, so called famouse documents-which are going to, as I have been told, knock my feet of the ground and my chin drop to the floor.

Markus

Betonov

01-21-16, 04:00 PM

I agree with Rockin Robbins and if he's infracted in any way I'm filling an official protest.

Cybermat47

01-21-16, 04:19 PM

I agree with Rockin Robbins and if he's infracted in any way I'm filling an official protest.

I absolutely agree, and I'll join you in that protest. Hopefully we never have to do it.

The fact is that Fahnenbohn is a Holocaust denier who openly expressed his views - something that is clearly banned by the Subsim rules.

And imagine if a newcomer comes to the site and sees this!

Oberon

01-21-16, 04:21 PM

I absolutely agree, and I'll join you in that protest. Hopefully we never have to do it.

The fact is that Fahnenbohn is a Holocaust denier who openly expressed his views - something that is clearly banned by the Subsim rules.

Still...could be worse...

He could be a Muslim. :o

Cybermat47

01-21-16, 04:25 PM

Still...could be worse...

He could be a Muslim. :o

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/195/868/Kq.jpg

Fahnenbohn

01-21-16, 04:25 PM

openly expressed his views.

No, that's wrong, it's impossible here.

http://www.forumsig.org/images/smilies/new_bad/lis-ceci-795.gif http://www.forumsig.org/images/smilies/mal/ANIMmal036.gifhttp://www.forumsig.org/images/smilies/mal/mal010.png

Sailor Steve

01-21-16, 04:30 PM

I see the rules of debate are not allowed to be followed here. I see no reason to participate further when absolute quotes of denial are called "unimpressive." They aren't made to be impressive. They are made to reflect the truth of what Fahr.. contends. They do that beyond any standard of proof.
You speak of the rules of debate at the same time you continue to use the tactic of ridicule by mangling another user's chosen screen name? That's not honest debate, it's baiting.

He is allowed to make clear statements that I and others are not allowed to rebut. All of your quotes are being misread by yourself. When I said he has not crossed the Denial line I was being precise. He has spoken of not being allowed to do so, and he has skirted the line quite finely. What he has not done is openly said the words. Until he does so he has not, as far as I'm concerned, crossed that line.

Fine. If he supplies his evidence it will be dealt with according to whatever rules cripple my response. Because the facts are so lopsided no amount of handicap toward the truth will prevent his side from losing anyway. The slightest light destroys the darkness. That is what we want. We also want to stay within the bounds of the topic.

RR, are you a policeman or functionary of the Ministry of Thought ?

RR If you don't want to participate, go away and stop posting. Thx.
That same judgement also applies to you. You are not a policeman or a moderator here either.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, here's the bottom line. I have been taken to task for locking the thread, and criticized for unlocking it. I have been accused of waffling with my "Unofficial" warnings, of being too lenient and of being too harsh.

I have asked several times now that everyone stick with the topic of Who Started The Second World War. Now I'm insisting. Anyone attempting to derail this thread from that topic from this point on will be dealt with accordingly. That's not meant to be a challenge, and no disrespect to anyone, but I don't see any other way to enforce it.

Please, be kind to me and my ulcers and try to stay with the subject.

Cybermat47

01-21-16, 04:34 PM

Please, be kind to me and my ulcers and try to stay with the subject.

Alright, Steve, I see your points, and I love your ulcers, so I'll stay on topic.

Fahnenbohn

01-21-16, 04:39 PM

He has spoken of not being allowed to do so, and he has skirted the line quite finely. What he has not done is openly said the words. Until he does so he has not, as far as I'm concerned, crossed that line.

This is an impartial judgment, thank you ! :up:

Fahnenbohn

01-21-16, 05:38 PM

OK. The first document is almost ready. I'm going to publish it tomorrow. About the second document (19 pages), I need more time to translate it.

Jimbuna

01-21-16, 08:07 PM

OK. The first document is almost ready. I'm going to publish it tomorrow. About the second document (19 pages), I need more time to translate it.

Be advised...

It has already been stated...

That time is shortly after 18:00 GMT on Tuesday 26th.

Aktungbby

01-21-16, 11:59 PM

That's fine with me, I guess there will some entertainment value.

Guys, I want you to stop polluting my thread.

http://www.forumsig.org/images/smilies/panneaux/panneau012.gif

Okay, here's the bottom line.
Please, be kind to me and my ulcers and try to stay with the subject.

OK. The first document is almost ready. I'm going to publish it tomorrow.

:sunny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI6dsMeABpU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI6dsMeABpU)

Cybermat47

01-22-16, 01:11 AM

:sunny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI6dsMeABpU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI6dsMeABpU)

:nope: terrible video to post.

The best Hallelujah video is right here: http://youtu.be/E1-6qSGAIyk

Anyway, looking forward to those documents, Fahnenbohn.

Aktungbby

01-22-16, 01:44 PM

OK. The first document is almost ready. I'm going to publish it tomorrow.

https://media.giphy.com/media/hCiQVo1dzVwPu/giphy.gif

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 01:46 PM

So, here is my first document. This is a translation made by me from a French historical documentary. Enjoy reading this !

*

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/22//16012201561818069013914283.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012201561818069013914283.png)

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 01:47 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/22//16012201561818069013914284.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012201561818069013914284.png)

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 01:47 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/22//16012201561918069013914285.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012201561918069013914285.png)

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 01:48 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/22//16012201561918069013914286.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012201561918069013914286.png)

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 01:49 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/22//16012201561918069013914287.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012201561918069013914287.png)

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 01:49 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/22//16012201562018069013914288.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012201562018069013914288.png)

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 01:50 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/22//16012201562018069013914289.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012201562018069013914289.png)

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 01:50 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/22//16012201562118069013914290.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012201562118069013914290.png)

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 01:51 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/22//16012201562118069013914291.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012201562118069013914291.png)

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 01:51 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/22//16012201562218069013914292.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012201562218069013914292.png)

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 01:52 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/22//16012201562218069013914294.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012201562218069013914294.png)

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 01:53 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/22//16012201562318069013914295.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012201562318069013914295.png)

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 01:53 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/22//16012201562318069013914296.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012201562318069013914296.png)

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 01:54 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/22//16012201562418069013914297.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012201562418069013914297.png)

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 01:54 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/22//16012201562418069013914298.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012201562418069013914298.png)

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 02:00 PM

Dowly

01-22-16, 03:37 PM

I think I popped a vessel just now.

Oberon

01-22-16, 04:06 PM

I think I popped a vessel just now.

Was it the Schleswing-Holstein? :O:

Dowly

01-22-16, 04:25 PM

Was it the Schleswing-Holstein? :O:
http://i.imgur.com/UtW54Kk.jpg

Fahnenbohn

01-22-16, 04:34 PM

"Hallelujah" ?

Cybermat47

01-22-16, 04:52 PM

That's more of an opinion piece than a document, if I'm to be honest. The author's clear and obvious bias immediately makes it hard to take as a historical document.

Dowly

01-22-16, 05:19 PM

That's more of an opinion piece than a document, if I'm to be honest. The author's clear and obvious bias immediately makes it hard to take as a historical document.
Yep, and there are gems like the bit about Hitler being ready to back off (page 7). Fortunately, source is listed and can be found here (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/ylbk312.asp), which tells a whole different story.

Sailor Steve

01-22-16, 06:39 PM

The first thing I noticed in reading through this is the timing. The Mussolini plan. "Britain knew that Hitler didn't want to dismember Poland."

My attention was drawn to the condition set by Britain that German troops be withdrawn. That brings to light the problem that all this is taking place on September 2, after Germany has invaded Poland. It's a form of special pleading to invade another country and then blame someone trying to help that country for "wanting war".

Jimbuna

01-22-16, 08:30 PM

https://media.giphy.com/media/hCiQVo1dzVwPu/giphy.gif

Come on now....I think there are more than a few that believe you are better 'versed' than that.

Give said individual the chance to make a case for whatever.

Kazuaki Shimazaki II

01-23-16, 12:17 AM

Translation errors.

Thanks to a very kind english speaker, there must be only a few translation errors. But "errare humanum est".

Part 4.
On the picture : How France hid to the public // and not "was hidden".

*

I'll read it. But for now, may I ask WHY this has to be provided as a bunch of PNG files rather than a single Word or PDF format? This makes it substantially harder to read!

Second, I will notice that you taken a lot of time to work through 15 pages. Realistically, I just don't see you finishing your 2nd proof before the 26th.

Let me offer a suggestion. Why don't you write up your 2nd translation in Google Docs and just stick the link here. That way, we can see you working as you translate and we can immediately offer our suggestions and comments to the parts that are finished.

Fahnenbohn

01-23-16, 05:23 AM

@ Aktungbby : "This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years" (Marshal Foch).

Yes, very representative of the spirit of the times : a marked hostility towards Germany, and the will to weaken her as much as possible. How could peace be possible in these conditions ??

Second, I will notice that you taken a lot of time to work through 15 pages. Realistically, I just don't see you finishing your 2nd proof before the 26th.

Why "before the 26th" ? I proved that I was not lying about the first document. Why would I lie about the second one ? This thread has no more reason to be closed. And besides, I still have two other documents about WW1 to translate. See post 1.

Oberon

01-23-16, 08:16 AM

Well, when 4.3% of your population is killed in a war, you really can't harbour much in the way of happiness and love towards the nation that killed them. :hmmm:

Jimbuna

01-23-16, 09:07 AM

I'll read it. But for now, may I ask WHY this has to be provided as a bunch of PNG files rather than a single Word or PDF format? This makes it substantially harder to read!

Second, I will notice that you taken a lot of time to work through 15 pages. Realistically, I just don't see you finishing your 2nd proof before the 26th.

Let me offer a suggestion. Why don't you write up your 2nd translation in Google Docs and just stick the link here. That way, we can see you working as you translate and we can immediately offer our suggestions and comments to the parts that are finished.

Great idea.

Why "before the 26th" ? I proved that I was not lying about the first document. Why would I lie about the second one ? This thread has no more reason to be closed. And besides, I still have two other documents about WW1 to translate. See post 1.

See my post quoted below #558 21st January.

It has already been stated...

That time is shortly after 18:00 GMT on Tuesday 26th.

Probably most definitely not but we did agree earlier that he would be given the chance to put his case forward provided he didn't breach the forum rules.

I'm on Skype atm if you're able.

And reiterated below #591 22nd.

Be advised...

The 27th of January brings with it an event in the UK of quite some significance to a great many.

So, it would be greatly appreciated if everything was sorted by then. The thread whilst being locked will still be viewable for people to read.

Fahnenbohn

01-23-16, 09:36 AM

So, it would be greatly appreciated if everything was sorted by then. The thread whilst being locked will still be viewable for people to read.

I fear it's impossible. I have about 50 pages to translate (see post 1 of this thread). And why not let people add some remarks ? Isn't it a debate ?

I need a month to achieve my work.

Jimbuna

01-23-16, 11:07 AM

Aktungbby

01-23-16, 11:23 AM

@ Aktungbby : "This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years" (Marshal Foch).

HUH WHAT! I'm cluelessly Foch'd here! A little Nacht und Nebel perhaps :O:https://49.media.tumblr.com/5eef5e00183e56f37d47455a19049ae3/tumblr_n8gg949tuw1sfxm22o1_500.gif (http://smellslikeateensblog.tumblr.com/)

Fahnenbohn

01-23-16, 12:13 PM

Look, there has been ample time given and quite a considerable amount of angst during the whole process.

SubSim have provided the platform and the audience so I think the least you can do is consider the much quicker process as suggested in #619 by Kazuaki Shimazaki II.

Are you trying to make me abandon ? Are you afraid of hearing other disturbing stories ? ...

I remind you that it's not me who decided to start this thread, English is not my native language. Otherwise, I may just publish documents in French ...

I do not consider myself obliged to spend all my free time to translate those documents. This will be done, but not within the time limit.

And again, I don't see any reason to close this thread ...

*

Oberon

01-23-16, 12:19 PM

HUH WHAT! I'm cluelessly Foch'd here! A little Nacht und Nebel perhaps :O:

http://treasure.diylol.com/uploads/post/image/173433/resized_nebelwerfer-meme-generator-this-is-a-nebelwerfer-it-werfs-nebels-3f51a2.jpg

Onkel Neal

01-23-16, 12:25 PM

I don't see the image :06:

Catfish

01-23-16, 02:21 PM

^ it's intentionally very foggy :D

A Nebelwerfer, but called so since its inventor was a Mister Nebel.
And it "werfs" grenades, of course :hmph:

Oberon

01-23-16, 02:38 PM

Still....could be worse:

http://i.imgur.com/hGzuYQm.jpg

Nippelspanner

01-23-16, 04:26 PM

Still....could be worse:
...

:shifty:

Catfish

01-23-16, 04:29 PM

Still....could be worse:

http://i.imgur.com/hGzuYQm.jpg

^ :rotfl2:

Jimbuna

01-23-16, 08:09 PM

Are you trying to make me abandon ? Are you afraid of hearing other disturbing stories ? ...

I remind you that it's not me who decided to start this thread, English is not my native language. Otherwise, I may just publish documents in French ...

I do not consider myself obliged to spend all my free time to translate those documents. This will be done, but not within the time limit.

And again, I don't see any reason to close this thread ...

*

On the contrary......follow the suggestion as suggested below by another thread contributor:

Let me offer a suggestion. Why don't you write up your 2nd translation in Google Docs and just stick the link here. That way, we can see you working as you translate and we can immediately offer our suggestions and comments to the parts that are finished.

Or do as you suggest and publish them in French.

You have been advised well in advance of the time constraints and of my intention regarding the longevity of this thread.

razark

01-23-16, 08:54 PM

I'd suggest you select your single best argument and present the reasoning and evidence. Slowly dripping out pages of a document isn't going to advance your case at all.

Fahnenbohn

01-24-16, 07:28 AM

You have been advised well in advance of the time constraints and of my intention regarding the longevity of this thread.

But with an ultimatum of one week ...

I think rather than I will publish it in french, with an english synthesis.

MaDef

01-24-16, 09:43 AM

I think you mean "synopsis" rather than "synthesis".

Kazuaki Shimazaki II

01-24-16, 12:52 PM

But with an ultimatum of one week ...

I'm always ready to see another point of view, and believe nothing should be sacred, but the thing is, you must know that you are pushing a topic so controversial you will be fighting ten to one and that many moderators would be happy to just find a convenient pretext to shut this all down (and not many would blame them).

Given this, the least you could have done is to have a good bit of proof lined up in this board's language (English) before you even wrote your first sentence. But you didn't. If you didn't prepare, you have to expect to lose.

If you really don't like my Google Docs idea ... well, I don't see any reason why this must be pushed through this year and this year only. Your chances of getting somewhere likely won't be hurt if you spent this year preparing and coming with a nice concentrated fist around the same time ... oh, next year?

Just my two cents.

I must also show my appreciation to the excellent moderation we are getting on this board. It is on days like this when the differences in moderation quality really show :yeah:

Fahnenbohn

01-24-16, 01:56 PM

@ Kazuaki Shimazaki II : Thank you for your kind message.

Given this, the least you could have done is to have a good bit of proof lined up in this board's language (English) before you even wrote your first sentence. But you didn't. If you didn't prepare, you have to expect to lose.

As I already said, I didn't open this thread, and this has never been my wish. Sailor Steve forced me to do, because he wanted to know my arguments. That's all.

Sailor Steve

01-24-16, 02:45 PM

As I already said, I didn't open this thread, and this has never been my wish. Sailor Steve forced me to do, because he wanted to know my arguments. That's all.
No, you didn't open this thread. What you did, though, was to post off-topic in a game thread, stating that the war was entirely Britain's fault. When someone disagreed with you and it turned into an ongoing argument, I moved it to General Topics.

Therefore you did indeed start this fight, and now seem to want to blame it on someone else. This sounds familiar.

Fahnenbohn

01-24-16, 03:01 PM

Therefore you did indeed start this fight, and now seem to want to blame it on someone else. This sounds familiar.

I don't blame you. I'm just saying what happened. I'm pleased to expose my arguments, but I didn't plan to open a debate.

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 03:38 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/25//16012509350318069013924917.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012509350318069013924917.png)

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/25//16012509185918069013924896.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012509185918069013924896.png)

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/25//16012509190018069013924897.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012509190018069013924897.png)

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/25//16012509190118069013924898.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012509190118069013924898.png)

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/25//16012509190218069013924899.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012509190218069013924899.png)

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/25//16012509190318069013924900.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012509190318069013924900.png)

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/25//16012509190418069013924901.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012509190418069013924901.png)

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/25//16012509190518069013924902.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012509190518069013924902.png)

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/25//16012509185618069013924894.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012509185618069013924894.png)

Dowly

01-25-16, 03:55 PM

May I ask that this thread is not closed. Fahnenbohn has provided evidence as asked. There still might be some discussion left.

As for Oberon's Holocaust memorial day, we are not talking about the Holocaust in this thread, so I see no reason to close the thread because of it.

That's just my opinion.

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 04:03 PM

Jimbuna

01-25-16, 04:15 PM

Thanks for your efforts in coming to your conclusion. There are 21 hours for people to respond if they care to.

HunterICX

01-25-16, 04:30 PM

Conclussion: Cutting sentences, conveniently ignoring evidence and facts to fit your view and claiming that there is some grand allied plot that is out there to destroy German credibility by manufacturing the History as we know it.

*sigh* I've seen more plausible items on the History Channel.

Could go more into Depth but I can conclude out of the previous back and forth arguments in this thread where many pointed out some errors in your statements you simply choise to ignore them, nothing much changed apart from the fact that the same claims are just put down into a opinionated biased documents which again proof nothing.

Hitler wanted peace?
His Book tells otherwise, his speeches tells otherwise and his actions tells otherwise.

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 04:35 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/25//16012510434618069013925112.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012510434618069013925112.png)

Nippelspanner

01-25-16, 04:38 PM

May I ask that this thread is not closed. Fahnenbohn has provided evidence as asked. There still might be some discussion left.
I agree, although I'd rather not call what he delivered "evidence", I don't see why this thread must be closed. You'll never know...

Catfish

01-25-16, 04:42 PM

I read he has been released, in 2011? :hmmm:

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 04:44 PM

although I'd rather not call what he delivered "evidence"

All sources are provided. All is verifiable. You just have to open the original books (not those written by propagandists and academics who are copying on one another, but the real historical sources), and read.

Dowly

01-25-16, 04:45 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/25//16012510434618069013925112.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012510434618069013925112.png)
I would like to thank

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 04:47 PM

I read he has been released, in 2011?

Currently, he has left the french territory to be able to continue his researches.

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 05:09 PM

Conclussion: Cutting sentences, conveniently ignoring evidence and facts to fit your view and claiming that there is some grand allied plot

Wonderful accusatory inversion ...

In Nuremberg, the German chiefs were presented as "plotters against peace". Hello Big Brother !

HunterICX

01-25-16, 05:17 PM

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/25//16012510434618069013925112.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012510434618069013925112.png)

Ow look.....another holocaust denier. :yawn:
Calling bluntly the survivors of the Oradour Massacre outright liars, he takes it up for the scum that is known as the Das Reich Division of the Waffen SS. :down:

All sources are provided. All is verifiable. You just have to open the original books (not those written by propagandists and academics who are copying on one another, but the real historical sources), and read.

It's verifiable that it is nothing but revisionist garbage which ignores the facts, evidence and alters testimonies for their own convinience to make pethatic statements which just slaps the one who died horribly at the hands of a failed Austrian painter in the face.

Wonderful accusatory inversion ...

Funny, it's what sums up everything you said so far.

u crank

01-25-16, 05:24 PM

So, World War II could have been avoided. If Poland would have not rejected all Hitler's negociation proposals, then war against Poland would never have taken place. But even after the German troops entered in Poland, peace was still possible, and the Britain and French politicians knew that : Hitler has always been ready for peaceful solutions.

Hitler wanted peace for Europe.

Obersalzberg Speech August 22, 1939

Poland will be depopulated and settled with Germans. My pact with the Poles was merely conceived of as a gaining of time.

— Adolf Hitler

http://teach.yauger.net/apworld/unit6/primary/obersalzberg.pdf

Special Prosecution Book-Poland

Nearly two years before the invasion of the Second Polish Republic, between 1937 and 1939, the Sonderfahndungsbuch Polen was being secretly prepared in Germany. It was compiled by the “Zentralstelle IIP Polen” (Central Unit IIP-Poland) unit of the Geheime Staatspolizei or Gestapo ("Secret State Police") with help from the German minority living in pre-war Poland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Prosecution_Book-Poland

Operation Tannenberg

Operation Tannenberg (German: Unternehmen Tannenberg) was a codename for one of the extermination actions by Nazi Germany that was directed at the Polish nationals during the opening stages of World War II in Europe

The shootings were conducted with the use of a proscription lists (Sonderfahndungsbuch Polen), compiled by the Gestapo in the span of two years before the 1939 attack.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenberg

Intelligenzaktion

Intelligenzaktion , intelligentsia action, was a highly secretive genocidal action of Nazi Germany against Polish elites (primarily intelligentsia; teachers, doctors, priests, community leaders etc.) in the early stages of World War II.

Once more the Führer must point out that the Poles can only have one master, and that is the German; two masters cannot and must not exist side by side; therefore all representatives of the Polish intelligentsia should be eliminated [umbringen]. This sounds harsh, but such are the laws of life.

— Adolf Hitler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligenzaktion#cite_note-9

Raptor1

01-25-16, 05:30 PM

All sources are provided. All is verifiable. You just have to open the original books (not those written by propagandists and academics who are copying on one another, but the real historical sources), and read.

What are real historical sources? All testimony provided against your claims is made up by Allied propaganda or is meaningless, apparently, so we can only take sources which agree with your premise.

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 05:36 PM

It's verifiable that it is nothing but revisionist garbage which ignores the facts, evidence and alters testimonies for their own convinience to make pethatic statements.

Another accusatory inversion. What you are saying has never been demonstrated. The only answer to their arguments is persecution. This is a complete admission !

The historical truth contradicts your paradigm. You are simply not able to go against that. For you, Hitler is the big bad wolf. OK, the discussion stops there with you.

Cybermat47

01-25-16, 05:55 PM

Fahnenbohn, to be frank, it seems to me that you believe anything said by Goebbels to be truth, and anything said by the Allies to be a lie. That's honestly a terrible attitude to have when you're looking for the truth. You shouldn't believe anything anyone says if you want to find the truth.

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 06:23 PM

it seems to me that you believe anything said by Goebbels to be truth

???

August

01-25-16, 06:55 PM

Hitlers own words prove that he started the war and it definitively answers the premise of this thread. Must we continue with this?

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 06:57 PM

Obersalzberg Speech August 22, 1939

Source : From Documents on British Foreign Policy, 1919–1939, ed. E.L. Woodward and Rohan Butler, 3rd series (London: HMSO, 1954), 7:258–60.

:haha:

Raptor1

01-25-16, 07:03 PM

Source : From Documents on British Foreign Policy, 1919–1939, ed. E.L. Woodward and Rohan Butler, 3rd series (London: HMSO, 1954), 7:258–60.

:haha:

Meanwhile, books published by the German Foreign Office during the war are completely reliable.

Cybermat47

01-25-16, 07:06 PM

???

This guy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

u crank

01-25-16, 07:27 PM

Source : From Documents on British Foreign Policy, 1919–1939, ed. E.L. Woodward and Rohan Butler, 3rd series (London: HMSO, 1954), 7:258–60.

:haha:

Vincent Reynouard.

:rotfl2:

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 07:50 PM

En Septembre 1939, l’objectif réel était la destruction du national-socialisme

Que ce soit à Oradour ou ailleurs, les crimes imputés (à tort ou à raison) aux Allemands pendant la période où ils occupèrent une grande partie de l’Europe (1940-1944) sont toujours mis sur le compte de la « barbarie nazie ».

Or, seule la personne de mauvaise foi peut prétendre que, durant la guerre, telle ou telle organisation allemande aurait révélé le vrai visage de l’hitlérisme. Le chien auquel vous donnez un coup de pied et qui vous mord révèle-t-il une nature féroce ? L’homme que vous menacez avec un couteau et qui vous blesse d’un coup de revolver révèle-t-il une nature d’assassin ? Assurément non. L’un et l’autre ont agi en état de légitime défense, pour protéger leur intégrité physique, voire leur vie. Leurs actes ont été ponctuels et uniquement destinés à répondre à une agression ponctuelle. En temps « normal », peut-être le chien et l’homme sont-ils très pacifiques ; on n’en sait rien. Voilà pourquoi, fidèle en cela aux enseignements de la morale chrétienne, la Justice traditionnelle admet la « légitime défense » et ne déclare pas meurtrier celui qui a agi dans cet état.

Eh bien, ce qui est vrai pour le chien ou pour l’homme l’est également pour l’Allemagne. Le 1er septembre 1939 éclata un conflit armé entre deux voisins, un conflit comme il y en avait eu tant par le passé. Deux jours après, ce conflit local s’étendit à l’Europe de l’Ouest ; là encore, ce n’était pas exceptionnel. Mais bientôt, les nouveaux belligérants (l’Angleterre et la France) le transformèrent en une guerre idéologique à mort. Il s’agissait de détruire l’Allemagne nationale-socialiste. Cette vérité apparut :

– Une première fois le 5 septembre 1939, lorsque l’Angleterre torpilla l’ultime tentative de médiation italienne pour trouver une solution au conflit ;

– Une deuxième fois le 17 septembre 1939 lorsque les démocraties se gardèrent bien de déclarer la guerre à l’URSS qui venait de commettre le même « crime » que le Reich : l’invasion de la Pologne ;

– Une troisième fois lorsque, le 7 octobre 1939, les démocraties repoussèrent avec mépris les offres de paix d’A. Hitler

Le 22 mars 1940, en outre, le Gouvernement français publia une bien étrange « déclaration ministérielle » qui affirmait : "La France est engagée dans une guerre totale […]. Par le fait même, l’enjeu de cette guerre est un enjeu total." (a déclaration ministérielle du 22 mars 1940, lue par Paul Raynaud devant la Chambre des députés et par Camille Chautemps devant le sénat. Reproduite in extenso dans la Documentation catholique, n° 911, 5 avril 1940, col. 332.) Or, quelques mois plus tôt, cette même France avait prétendu entrer en guerre pour protéger l’indépendance menacée de la petite Pologne. Que cachait donc cette déclaration de portée bien plus générale ? La réponse fut apportée moins de trois mois plus tard. Le 11 juin 1940, au Conseil suprême tenu près de Briare, Winston Churchill jeta le masque. Il repoussa toute possibilité de paix avec l’ennemi et lança au contraire :

"Même si l’Allemagne parvient à occuper la France tout entière […] les Alliés conservent en fin de compte, les moyens de vaincre et de détruire le régime national-socialiste" (Voy. Maxime Weygand, Rappelé au service (éd. Flammarion, 1950), appendice VI : « Procès verbal de la séance du Conseil suprême tenu au château du Muguet, près de Briare, le 11 juin 1940 » (reproduction in extenso), p. 596.)

L’aveu était énorme. L’indépendance de la Pologne, il n’en était plus question (on le verra d’ailleurs en 1945, lorsque ce pays sera purement et simplement abandonné à Staline). La protection des petites nations n’avait été qu’un prétexte. Pour Churchill et sa clique, l’objectif réel était la destruction du IIIe Reich, incarnation du national-socialisme. Cet objectif, ils l’atteignirent. Hitler avait donc eu raison lorsque, le 19 septembre 1939 à Dantzig, il avait lancé :

"Il est vrai que pour ces gens la Pologne n’était non plus qu’un instrument pour atteindre leurs buts. On déclare en effet aujourd’hui tranquillement qu’il ne s’agit plus de l’existence de la Pologne, mais de la destruction du régime allemand." (Voy. A. Hitler, Discours. Du 28 avril 1939 au 4 mai 1941 (éd. Denoël, 1941), p. 95.)

Le 19 juillet 1940, au Reichstag, il déclara :

"Celui qui compare les facteurs d’où est sorti ce règlement de comptes historiques [la querelle germano-polonaise pour Dantzig et le Corridor] avec l’ampleur, la grandeur et la portée des événements militaires, doit reconnaître qu’il n’y a aucune proportion entre les épisodes et les sacrifices de cette lutte et les raisons qui l’ont provoquée, à moins que ces raisons n’aient elles-mêmes été que les prétextes pour réaliser des intentions cachées" .

Ces « raisons cachées », c’était bien entendu la destruction du Reich. A partir de 1940, ainsi, l’Allemagne hitlérienne sut qu’elle combattait pour son existence, contre des Alliés qui voulaient sa mort. Dans son discours du 19 juillet, d’ailleurs, le Führer ne le cacha pas :

[I]"Je ne dissimule en aucune façon, lança-t-il, que la continuation de cette lutte ne pourra se terminer que par la destruction intégrale de l’un des deux adversaires" (Ibid., p. 242).

Cybermat47

01-25-16, 08:12 PM

However, only the person in bad faith can claim that, during the war, a particular German organization would have revealed the true face of Hitlerism. The dog which you give a kick and bites you he reveals a fierce kind?

This metaphor only makes sense if you're Germany and the rest of the world is the dog.

u crank

01-25-16, 08:15 PM

Or, seule la personne de mauvaise foi peut prétendre que, durant la guerre, telle ou telle organisation allemande aurait révélé le vrai visage de l’hitlérisme. Le chien auquel vous donnez un coup de pied et qui vous mord révèle-t-il une nature féroce ? L’homme que vous menacez avec un couteau et qui vous blesse d’un coup de revolver révèle-t-il une nature d’assassin ? Assurément non. L’un et l’autre ont agi en état de légitime défense, pour protéger leur intégrité physique, voire leur vie

The very fact that this conflict began with Nazi Germany invading the sovereign state of Poland makes this statement ridiculous. Your ideology has blinded you. Who is the aggressor? Surely the one who attacks first. Your failure to see that suggests a blindness that can only come from ideological indoctrination.

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 08:41 PM

This metaphor only makes sense if you're Germany and the rest of the world is the dog.

BRITAIN AND FRANCE DECLARED WAR. IT'S NOT THE CONTRARY.

Who is the aggressor? Surely the one who attacks first.

You have understood nothing.

Raptor1

01-25-16, 08:44 PM

BRITAIN AND FRANCE DECLARED WAR. IT'S NOT THE CONTRARY.

You're right. Germany started the war without issuing a declaration at all.

razark

01-25-16, 08:45 PM

BRITAIN AND FRANCE DECLARED WAR. IT'S NOT THE CONTRARY.
But why did Britain and France invade Poland?

Rockin Robbins

01-25-16, 08:48 PM

u crank

01-25-16, 08:49 PM

You have understood nothing.

Right. That is because I'm not indoctrinated. Comprenez vous?

August

01-25-16, 08:49 PM

You have understood nothing.

The world understood the nazis quite well though, which is why they put aside long standing enmities and united long enough to destroy them. Think about that.

Captain Jeff

01-25-16, 08:57 PM

Of course nobody wants to admit that their country started World War 2. Why would anyone want to think their parents/grandparents had a hand in starting the bloodiest event in human history? So we debate. We go back and forth over who might be "at fault."

And, in so doing, we have a thread that is a very good microcosm of how the war started in the first place.

But the real question, for us today, is not who started it. The real question is what did we learn from it.

Look at the world today. There's always a war somewhere. We have multiple nations worried about migrants because their people don't want to live with those "other" people. We have financial crisis' that can't seem to be solved and money problems can lead to anger and hate. We have countries with huge prison systems, countries that use prisoners as cheap labor. Are conditions really that different than the condition of the world before World War 2?

We can't afford to repeat a world war. We have nuclear weapons now. We have conventional weapons that can do much more damage than World War 2 weapons. We can't afford to dismiss each other as "wacko" or "those people." We can't afford to slip into the blame game for any of our problems. There's too much at stake.

I forget his name but there is a U.S. naval commander who stated, "Either war is finished or we are."

So what did we learn from World War 2?

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 09:02 PM

Your ideology has blinded you.

ideological indoctrination.

What ideology please ? If you are thinking about National-Socialism, this is not an ideology.

u crank

01-25-16, 09:04 PM

What ideology please ? If you are thinking about National-Socialism, this is not an ideology.

What is it then?

August

01-25-16, 09:05 PM

So what did we learn from World War 2?

How to mass produce penicillin. :yep:

u crank

01-25-16, 09:09 PM

How to mass produce penicillin. :yep:

Now that's progress. :O:

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 09:13 PM

Of course nobody wants to admit that their country started World War 2. Why would anyone want to think their parents/grandparents had a hand in starting the bloodiest event in human history?

Errr. I'm from France ... But yes, many guys here are from Britain or USA ...

The real question is what did we learn from it. Look at the world today. There's always a war somewhere. We have multiple nations worried about migrants because their people don't want to live with those "other" people. We have financial crisis' that can't seem to be solved and money problems can lead to anger and hate.

Yes, this is a very interesting question ! Our world is ruled by those who won against the Third Reich. And here is the result. The international finance and war of democracies are spreading chaos and misery everywhere.

Also, read my conclusion at the end of my second document.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2376785&postcount=641

Nippelspanner

01-25-16, 09:19 PM

If you are thinking about National-Socialism, this is not an ideology.
I'm not sure if I should :har: or :/\\!!.
I know one thing, F.'s fantasies are entertaining.
I'd love to hear your point of view about, for example, Treblinka, but I guess that would fall under "discussing the holocaust", and in your case, denying it, which is unfortunately a red flag even on Subsim.

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 09:21 PM

What is it then?

That : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2372839&postcount=204

Oh, I guess you never wondered about your own political system ...

u crank

01-25-16, 09:23 PM

Our world is ruled by those who won against the Third Reich.

You say that as if Nazism is some kind of force for the good of mankind. There is not one shred of evidence for this. There is a mountain of evidence to the contrary. Time to lay it all on the table. Enlighten us Herr Fahnenbohn.

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 09:28 PM

There is a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

You wanted to say : a mountain of propaganda ? Yes, sure.

We could for example make a comparison on how black people was treated in USA and in Germany ...

From the Official German Book published after the Olympic games (1936) :

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/26//16012603574518069013925317.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012603574518069013925317.jpg)

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/01/26//16012603574718069013925318.png (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=16012603574718069013925318.png)

Germans were really some horrible hateful racists ! ...

u crank

01-25-16, 09:31 PM

Yes, sure. One thing : Nazism was NOT an ideology, but a pragmatic policy .....

I call it rule by gangsters plain and simple. If your opponent disagrees with you kill him or put him in prison. Totalitarianism. Nothing less. And you like this?

Rockin Robbins

01-25-16, 09:38 PM

Duplicate

Fahnenbohn

01-25-16, 10:06 PM

If your opponent disagrees with you kill him or put him in prison.

You're talking about the communists ? They were preparing a violent revolution. So, they had to be locked up in the interests of public safety. Most of the German communists became nazis when they saw how great was the change in Germany.

Rockin Robbins

01-25-16, 10:14 PM

Careful what you say to trap yourself there Fahrendude.

Oberon

01-25-16, 10:29 PM

You're talking about the communists ? They were preparing a violent revolution. So, they had to be locked up in the interests of public safety. Most of the German communists became nazis when they saw how great was the change in Germany.

As opposed to the completely bloodless way that the National Socialist party came to power....

Cybermat47

01-25-16, 11:00 PM

Germans were really some horrible hateful racists ! ...

Those are pictures of ordinary Germans, not Nazis.

Find some proof that Hitler tolerated all ethncities, and you might make a point.

Sailor Steve

01-25-16, 11:06 PM

Near the beginning of all this, you said:
OK, no problem ! As I told you in PM, I'm honestly searching the truth, and I'm open to the debate.
Everything you've said since then has been the opposite. You have the truth, and every other source is lying. To me this is sounding more and more like every other conspiracy theory I've seen, from governments hiding UFOs to the Kennedy assassination to 9/11. Everything that disagrees with you is propaganda. Only your sources are honest.

If England and France had not declared war, do you really think Hitler would have set Poland free? Things he himself said indicate the opposite. They've been quoted, and you dismissed them.

I also notice you tend to not answer others except to criticize their sources. I pointed out that the Mussolini peace plan was presented after Germany invaded Poland. This makes the claim that Britain and France ignored the offer to be dishonest at best. They had a treaty with Poland, and they honored it. Invading another country and then offering peace is backwards.

All your sources try to hide the bottom line I pointed out long ago. Nobody twisted Hitler's arm and forced him to invade Poland. Documented talks between him and his generals has shown that the invasion was planned weeks before the actual event. It's probable that he expected no resistance from the Allies, just as he got none when he forced Czechoslovakia into submission. Trying to make it look like the other side's fault is diverting attention from the truth. Hitler invaded Poland. That's the long and the short of it.

Catfish

01-26-16, 03:23 AM

For what it's worth, if he wants to present evidence or unpublished material, why not, go on. Why a time limit? Translating those texts sure takes time. And, does anyone have to be afraid of its contents?

The documents are interesting enough, however all boils down to when those "offers of peace" from Italy or whoever came, and it was pretty useless to propose that after there were troops already in Poland.
And, like the reeducation, you also should not believe all what Hitler said, to make the german people believe in his righteousness to attack Poland, errm defend Germany i meant :03:
"Seit 5:45 wird jetzt zurueck [sic!] geschossen"

Hitler wanted to go for Russia right from the beginning, and just because of that he wanted no peace with Russia. Unless Stalin would have given him some big chunks of land voluntarily, which i somehow .. doubt.

A peacefully united Europe? I assume Hitler did not really want to go to war in the west, but he had strategically only one chance to prevent a two-front war like in WW1, after England declaring war. And there were of course already plans for that, just in case. Like the US having plans for Canada, as we now know.
So it may have been England that made it a worldwide war, out of a locally restricted one like Hitler had tried, alright.

But assuming Hitler wanted peace with Russia, Poland or the jews is "a bit" ridiculous though.

Fahnenbohn

01-26-16, 03:57 AM

Near the beginning of all this, you said :
"OK, no problem ! As I told you in PM, I'm honestly searching the truth, and I'm open to the debate."

Yes, and for now, you have not convinced me. You know, I really would like to be convinced, because this war was so horrible that it would be terrifying that she has been declared for bad reasons.

If England and France had not declared war, do you really think Hitler would have set Poland free ? Things he himself said indicate the opposite. They've been quoted, and you dismissed them.

Then, it was a localized conflict, and both sides would have to talk together to find a solution. But Poland refused that. She said that if Hitler still wanted to talk about Danzig, it would be WAR between them. So, as Hitler wanted to cure this flagrant injustice of Versailles, he had no more the choice.

I pointed out that the Mussolini peace plan was presented after Germany invaded Poland. This makes the claim that Britain and France ignored the offer to be dishonest at best. They had a treaty with Poland, and they honored it. Invading another country and then offering peace is backwards.

Treaties between France and Poland were null and void in September 1939, as I've clearly demonstrated. France didn't have to help Poland. Moreover, it was pure madness.

Documented talks between him and his generals has shown that the invasion was planned weeks before the actual event.

Yes, of course, that's logical. As head of the State, Hitler had to prepare all eventualities. That doesn't mean that he wanted to invade Poland. He was just ready to do it if Poland didn't want to know anything about peaceful proposals.

just as he got none when he forced Czechoslovakia into submission.

Submission ?? Hitler has just allowed various peoples that were composing this artificial state to obtain their independence. Then, he sent his army in Bohemia and Moravia to maintain order.

Fahnenbohn

01-26-16, 04:07 AM

all boils down to when those "offers of peace" from Italy or whoever came, and it was pretty useless to propose that after there were troops already in Poland.

Why ? Hitler was ready to stop the invasion and go for an international conference. France was ready too. But Britain added another unacceptable condition to avoid it. She wanted war.

Hitler wanted to go for Russia right from the beginning, and just because of that he wanted no peace with Russia.

No, he broke the non-agression pact for very good reasons, and I will tell you why if you let me the time.

Fahnenbohn

01-26-16, 04:30 AM

it would be terrifying that she has been declared for bad reasons.

@ all : I would like to ask you something. Do you consider the fact that Germany was not a democracy, is sufficient to destroy the country and kill the population ?

u crank

01-26-16, 05:46 AM

@ all : I would like to ask you something. Do you consider the fact that Germany was not a democracy, is sufficient to destroy the country and kill the population ?

@ Fahnenbohn. The fact that Germany at this time was a repressive police state whose policies of racial superiority anti-Semitism and anti Communisim combined with a desire to expand its territory almost certainly brought about the start of WW2. That is a indisputable fact. You can spin it any way you want. You can tell us that Hitler was a nice guy and only wanted peace. You can tell us that the earth is flat and aliens abducted your cat. Nobody is buying. The reason you are doing this is because of where your sympathies lay. We know what you are.

Raptor1

01-26-16, 05:49 AM

@ all : I would like to ask you something. Do you consider the fact that Germany was not a democracy, is sufficient to destroy the country and kill the population ?

Do you consider the fact that Danzig was not (very technically) incorporated into Germany sufficient to destroy Poland and kill its population?

Sailor Steve

01-26-16, 06:11 AM

Then, it was a localized conflict, and both sides would have to talk together to find a solution. But Poland refused that. She said that if Hitler still wanted to talk about Danzig, it would be WAR between them.
Where exactly does it say that?

So, as Hitler wanted to cure this flagrant injustice of Versailles, he had no more the choice.
As I keep saying, there is always a choice. Hitler chose to attack Poland.

Treaties between France and Poland were null and void in September 1939, as I've clearly demonstrated.
Only in your own mind. You haven't convinced anyone else.

France didn't have to help Poland. Moreover, it was pure madness.
But it wasn't madness for Hitler to attack Poland? Despite all your claims, he didn't have to either.

Yes, of course, that's logical. As head of the State, Hitler had to prepare all eventualities. That doesn't mean that he wanted to invade Poland. He was just ready to do it if Poland didn't want to know anything about peaceful proposals.
I note you didn't say he was ready to fight if attacked. You still say he was ready to fight if they didn't accept his proposals. He still attacked first. Nothing has changed.

Submission ?? Hitler has just allowed various peoples that were composing this artificial state to obtain their independence. Then, he sent his army in Bohemia and Moravia to maintain order.
Maintain order by annexing the entire country. That's an interesting way of obtaining "peace". "Everything will be peaceful as long as everybody does what I say."

You're right. Hitler didn't want war. He just wanted to take over country after country without opposition. As soon as somebody finally stood up to him, "It's their fault, not mine."

Jimbuna

01-26-16, 06:41 AM

Hitlers own words prove that he started the war and it definitively answers the premise of this thread. Must we continue with this?

Please bear with me matey, the threads lifespan will end as close to 18:14 GMT as I am able so community members still have ample time to respond.

Never let it be said SubSim refuse people the right to have their say (within the parameters of the forum rules of course).

I should imagine this thread will be referred to many a time in the future as an example of such fairness.

Fahnenbohn

01-26-16, 07:06 AM

The fact that Germany at this time was a repressive police state whose policies of racial superiority anti-Semitism and anti Communisim combined with a desire to expand its territory almost certainly brought about the start of WW2.

- repressive police ? yes, against communists
- racial superiority ? not at all : racial purity, without hate for other races
- anti-semitism ? of course, they had several reasons
- expand territory ? no, only get the german territories they lost with Versailles treaty, and their ancient colonies, that's all.

Do you consider the fact that Danzig was not (very technically) incorporated into Germany sufficient to destroy Poland and kill its population?

Oppressed and massacred German minorities in Poland, Germany cut in two parts, Poland refusing negotiations = sufficient to invade Poland to get what they historically and ethnically had the right to have.

Where exactly does it say that?

Le 26 mars 1939, l'ambassadeur polonais à Berlin avait clairement répondu à Ribbentrop : "Toute poursuite de ces projets allemands, notamment en ce qui concernait le retour de Dantzig au Reich, signifierait la guerre avec la Pologne."

Maintain order by annexing the entire country. That's an interesting way of obtaining "peace".

That's wrong, Boheme-Moravia has not been annexed.

Sailor Steve

01-26-16, 07:14 AM

Le 26 mars 1939, l'ambassadeur polonais à Berlin avait clairement répondu à Ribbentrop : "Toute poursuite de ces projets allemands, notamment en ce qui concernait le retour de Dantzig au Reich, signifierait la guerre avec la Pologne."
That's a statement without support. What is the source?

That's wrong, Boheme-Moravia has not been annexed.
So they took the whole country except for one province? How is that better?

HunterICX

01-26-16, 07:20 AM

So they took the whole country except for one province? How is that better?

and on top of that it was left as an autonomous Nazi-administered province which the German government considered part of the Greater German Reich.

Cybermat47

01-26-16, 07:30 AM

- repressive police ? yes, against communists

How was the police action against communists any different than the police action against the Nazis?

- racial superiority ? not at all : racial purity, without hate for other races

Keeping the races seperate? Isn't that Apartheid?

- anti-semitism ? of course, they had several reasons

Are you honestly trying to justify anti-semitism?

- expand territory ? no, only get the german territories they lost with Versailles treaty, and their ancient colonies, that's all.

If Hitler was such a great guy, why did he want to reclaim the old colonies, and not give them back to the people who lived there before Europeans? If he took them back, it would be exactly like how the Treaty of Versailles took land away from Germany - actually, they wouldn't even try to justify it, because no white people would be disadvantaged, so it would be worse than Versailles.

Dowly

01-26-16, 07:55 AM

I should imagine this thread will be referred to many a time in the future as an example of such fairness.Thread that was closed down even though people were still discussing the topic and which was not against the rules will be referred in future as an example of fairness?

Sure.

Catfish

01-26-16, 08:37 AM

^
Quoting myself from some posts ago:
... For what it's worth, if he wants to present evidence or unpublished material, why not, go on. Why a time limit? Translating those texts sure takes time. And, does anyone have to be afraid of its contents?...

I'd say i agree, with Dowly. :huh:

August

01-26-16, 08:53 AM

- repressive police ? yes, against communists

And Jews and Gypsies and Homosexuals and the handicapped and Catholics and a host of other groups.

Here's a question for you. Why do you defend these nazi animals? Why would anyone in their right mind sympathize with this gang of criminals?

Jimbuna

01-26-16, 08:55 AM

Thread that was closed down even though people were still discussing the topic and which was not against the rules will be referred in future as an example of fairness?

Sure.

Not quite, more a matter of a moderator persuading the forum owner that people are entitled to their say provided they stay within the bounds of the forum rules whilst demonstrating as much fairness as possible to everyone that contributes.

A thread that does not become the reason for longstanding members to receive warnings and infraction and does not fizzle out into a black is white and white is black argument or an ending where nothing is actually proven.

Not forgetting the fact said thread was locked previously but reopened on the advice of said moderator.

I do appreciate moderation is often a double-edged sword but there's not much I'll ever be able to do about that.

Rockin Robbins

01-26-16, 08:56 AM

- repressive police ? yes, against communists
- racial superiority ? not at all : racial purity, without hate for other races
- anti-semitism ? of course, they had several reasons
- expand territory ? no, only get the german territories they lost with Versailles treaty, and their ancient colonies, that's all.

Oppressed and massacred German minorities in Poland, Germany cut in two parts, Poland refusing negotiations = sufficient to invade Poland to get what they historically and ethnically had the right to have.

Le 26 mars 1939, l'ambassadeur polonais à Berlin avait clairement répondu à Ribbentrop : "Toute poursuite de ces projets allemands, notamment en ce qui concernait le retour de Dantzig au Reich, signifierait la guerre avec la Pologne."

That's wrong, Boheme-Moravia has not been annexed.
Ah, you fall further into self-entrapment. Good! Good! Keep talking nonsense. You will have to own those words. This post alone is your downfall. I believe it is worthy of special treatment.

Fahnenbohn

01-26-16, 10:28 AM

And Jews and Gypsies and Homosexuals and the handicapped and Catholics and a host of other groups.

On all this, I would have to tell A LOT of things. And we could engage in a long and exciting discussion, if only you were not so conditioned about the "nazis" (hhhaaaaaa !!!!!! the evil !!!!!!).

But this is not the debate here.

Raptor1

01-26-16, 10:37 AM

- anti-semitism ? of course, they had several reasons

Really?

Oppressed and massacred German minorities in Poland, Germany cut in two parts, Poland refusing negotiations = sufficient to invade Poland to get what they historically and ethnically had the right to have.

And yet they occupied the whole country and killed its population anyway.

Le 26 mars 1939, l'ambassadeur polonais à Berlin avait clairement répondu à Ribbentrop : "Toute poursuite de ces projets allemands, notamment en ce qui concernait le retour de Dantzig au Reich, signifierait la guerre avec la Pologne."

Curiously enough, Lipski himself says about this meeting with Ribbentrop that Poland suggested a counter-proposal to the German demands but Ribbentrop wasn't willing to listen if they were not completely accepted as they were. But I guess he's a liar and we can only ever trust what Hitler or a representative of the Nazi government said if we want the truth. Oh, wait, except for all those times they said things that were completely contradictory to your theory, in which case we should ignore them as well.

That's wrong, Boheme-Moravia has not been annexed.

It was involuntarily occupied by military force and subjected to harsh oppression. The semantics are irrelevant.

Fahnenbohn

01-26-16, 10:46 AM

That's a statement without support. What is the source?
100 Documents on the Origins of the War Selected from the Official German White Book

Here : http://www.allworldwars.com/German%20White%20Book.html

No. 38 (208)
Conversation of the Reich Minister for Foreign Affairs with the Polish Ambassador, 26 March 1939
Memo
(Translation)

I received M. Lipski, the Polish Ambassador, at 12.30 p.m. to-day.

Ambassador Lipski handed me- the Polish Government's Memorandum attached hereto, which I read in his presence.

Having taken note of its contents I replied to Ambassador Lipski that, in my personal opinion, the Polish attitude could not be considered a suitable basis for a solution of the German-Polish question. The only possible solution of the problem was the re-union of Danzig with the Reich and the construction of an extra-territorial motor-road and railway connection between the Reich and East Prussia. M. Lipski replied that it was his painful duty to draw attention to the fact that any further prosecution of these German plans, especially as far as the return of Danzig to the Reich was concerned, meant war with Poland.

Fahnenbohn

01-26-16, 10:50 AM

Curiously enough, Lipski himself says about this meeting with Ribbentrop that Poland suggested a counter-proposal to the German demands but Ribbentrop wasn't willing to listen if they were not completely accepted as they were.

As Sailor Steve says : That's a statement without support. What is the source ?

Raptor1

01-26-16, 11:02 AM

As Sailor Steve says : That's a statement without support. What is the source ?

From Lipski's memoirs:

"At my next meeting with Ribbentrop, on March 26, I handed my government's counterproposals for a solution of the Danzig problem in the bounds of a bilateral Polish-German agreement and suggesting the creation of a Polish-German commission in order to provide the best possible facilities for communications between the Reich and East Prussia. Ribbentrop, however, presented his case in such a manner that the German demands were to be acccpted as a whole, refusing to commit himself in any way whatsoever as to the merits of the Polish counteroffer, regarding which, in consequence, complete silence was deliberately imposed by the German government."

Józef Beck and Lipski both said at various points after this date that Poland was still willing to enter negotiations, though this was around the time Germany stopped trying to issue demands. The notion that Lipski said anything like this:

She said that if Hitler still wanted to talk about Danzig, it would be WAR between them.

requires a ridiculously selective interpretation of something that Ribbentrop said that Lipski said and ignoring everything that can possibly indicate otherwise.

Fahnenbohn

01-26-16, 11:13 AM

From Lipski's memoirs:

"At my next meeting with Ribbentrop, on March 26, I handed my government's counterproposals for a solution of the Danzig problem in the bounds of a bilateral Polish-German agreement and suggesting the creation of a Polish-German commission in order to provide the best possible facilities for communications between the Reich and East Prussia. Ribbentrop, however, presented his case in such a manner that the German demands were to be acccpted as a whole, refusing to commit himself in any way whatsoever as to the merits of the Polish counteroffer, regarding which, in consequence, complete silence was deliberately imposed by the German government."

Józef Beck and Lipski both said at various points after this date that Poland was still willing to enter negotiations, though this was around the time Germany stopped trying to issue demands.

Ah, a good argument, I admit. Could you give me a link please ?

Now, we have to know who is not saying the truth, or partially.

But I'm pointing out the fact that these are only Memoirs, so they must be very less precise than a daily report, as Ribbentrop made. When did he write them ? After the war ? It's very easy to rearrange facts after they have taken place. Are there any official documents ?

*

Rockin Robbins

01-26-16, 11:26 AM

In order to “justify” the invasion of Poland, Hitler and his thugs set up a variety of “incidents” for the benefit of their pet news media to report Polish atrocities against the German people.

Roger Manvell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Manvell), Heinrich Fraenkel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Fraenkel), Heinrich Himmler: The SS, Gestapo, His Life and Career, Skyhorse Publishing Inc., 2007, ISBN 1-60239-178-5 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/1602391785), Google Print, p.76 (http://books.google.com/books?id=fO6Ow6jJA28C&pg=PA76&dq=%22Operation+Himmler%22&ei=fyDOR5L2MJXGyASA6MmNBQ&sig=FWfI2Tk8btX7m9FZTJ8xTFz6pto) reports the overall action was called Operation Himmler, to include:

The strategic railway at Jablunka Pass (Jabłonków Incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabłonków_Incident)), located on the border between Poland and Czechoslovakia[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Himmler#cite_note-EspMachine-12)
The German radio station Sender Gleiwitz (Gliwice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliwice))
The German customs station at Hochlinden (today part of Rybnik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rybnik)-Stodoły (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stodoły,_Rybnik))[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Himmler#cite_note-Himmler2-9)[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Himmler#cite_note-Ailsby-10)
The forest service station in Pitschen (Byczyna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byczyna))[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Himmler#cite_note-Himmler2-9)
The communications station at Neuberstisch (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neuberstisch&action=edit&redlink=1)
The railroad station in Alt-Eiche (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alt-Eiche&action=edit&redlink=1), Rosenberg in Westpreußen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susz) district
A woman and her companion in Katowice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katowice)

I give Wikipedia links because their articles are extensively footnoted with many references which support the authenticy of the claims that these false flag operations, where Germans attacked Germans to give the false impression of Polish atrocities against Germans were carefully planned cynicle and murderous staged events to portray something which did not happen.

Of course there is the testimony of Alfred Naujocks, who Himmler put in charge of the Gleiwitz farce, testifying at the Nuremberg War Trials of his direct involvement. Note that he seeks to minimize the worst aspects of the attack, saying that the canned goods were drugged only and just shot in a non-lethal manner and were “just fine.” This was not true. The Polish national murdered for the stage play was shot in the head and left dead at the scene. The prisoners from the concentration camp were shot dead, then their faces beaten so badly they were not able to be identified. Then they were all dressed in Polish uniforms to lend credulity to the lie that the Radio Station had been attacked by Polish terrorists, who made the broadcast to incite a Polish reprisal against Germans. In fact, the content of the broadcast was directed by Heydrich.
Here is extensive quotation from Naujacks' testimony for the Nuremberg Trials:

Q. When you went into Heydrich’s Office, what did he say and what did you say?
A. I cannot give you the conversation word for word.
Q. As near as you remember..
A. I must add that as long as I was in the SD I belonged to a very low grade there.
Q. That has nothing to do with this conversation. Just tell me as near as you remember what the conversation was with Heydrich.
A. This has been carried through in the form of an order. There is no talk about a conversation.
Q. Tell me what he said as near as you remember.
A. Heydrich gave me the order to go with five or six people to Gleiwitz, which was clean German territory, not border. He said that practical proof for foreign press is necessary for the attack on Poland and that he counted on an outbreak of war between Germany and Poland within the next few days. It was my task to demonstrate an attack and make it on the broadcasting station in Gleiwitz and to make a speech in Polish on to the Polish minorities in Silesia. That was no clean border incident like another one to which I shall come later. This was only done for the reason of leading the press astray but I know about the different story that really constituted a border incident.
Q. We will get to that later. Just tell me now what Heydrich said at that meeting.
A. Heydrich gave me the order to go to Gleiwitz, to wait for a pass-word which I was told and I had to be at the disposal any minute for the carrying out of this action and I should carry out this action only after hearing the pass-word, which would come from Heydrich directly. I had to wait quite some time; the matter was drawn out further than I expected, which was probably due to the conferences about Poland and to the meddling of the English in the Polish question. So that, at the end, I personally didn’t believe that anything would happen at all. After approximately 14 days I asked if I could return to Berlin, Then I was told by Heydrich that I had to stop and wait.
Q. Where were you at that time?
A. In Gleiwitz.
Q. That was about 24th August?
A. Yes, when I wanted to return to Berlin.
Q. I am not clear as to exactly what you were supposed to do there at the radio station.
A. The question was to make a speech in Polish through the broadcasting station in Gleiwitz in order to incite a rising of the Polish minorities who were situated in Upper Silesia.
Q. Were you supposed to make the speech?
A. No, one had to do it that spoke Polish.
Q. Did you have a man who was supposed to make that speech with you?
A. No. He was put at my disposal and he was told to me as a competent man from the Main Unit that happened to be there. It was a German who spoke Polish.
Q. Was that a German broadcasting station?
A. Yes.
Q. What would be so difficult about having somebody talk in Polish over that station?
A. It should be represented this way, as if Polish minorities had attacked this broadcasting station by force. In Gleiwitz there were a number of Poles whose citizenship was Polish.
Q. In other words, you were to represent yourself as Poles.
A. Yes.
Q. Then you and your men had to attack the radio station.
A. Yes.
Q. And were supposed to seize the radio station and then make the speech.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you understand that the people working at the station knew the plan?
A. No, they knew nothing about it.
Q. Were you to put on Polish uniforms?
A. No.
Q. In civilian clothes?
A. Yes.
Q. But that never happened?
A. Oh yes, it happened, but I don’t think it was ever published. It was more done to demonstrate Polish guilt.
Q. But when did that happen?
A. That happened exactly one day before the outbreak of the war.
Q. About the 30th of August?
A. About the 31st of August, I received the pass-word.
Q. From whom?
A. Heydrich. …..

Q. Who prepared the speech that was going to be made over the radio?
A. I was told by Heydrich himself (only in substance because Heydrich does not speak Polish himself) what should be mentioned in the speech.
Q. You told the man who was giving the speech.
A. Yes. …

Q. What happened?
A. War broke out I think on 1st September, and on the 31st August, at noon, I received the order that in the evening at exactly 8:00 o’clock, the attack on the broadcasting station would have to be carries through. That was given through to me by Heydrich personally, by way of telephone by the pass-word, naturally. Then he told me personally, “For the purpose of carrying the plan through, report to Mueller,” and he used the expression “For the canned goods,” and “Canned Goods” was Mueller’s name for the people that should remain there. Heydrich had a doctor, I don’t know his name exactly, and this doctor gave an injection to these people and they were then unconscious and then these people had a shot wound which was not deadly…..

Alfred Naujocks: Nuremberg Interogation 9/11/45

http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/history/WWII/1939/Gleiwitz.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

It's appropriate to quote those who cannot be implicated as presenting “Allied Propaganda.” Let's demonstrate the bankruptcy of claiming that accounts of Nazi thuggery are merely alterations of history by the victorious Allies. Nobody had less to lose than Hermann Goering. He was a dead man and for good reason, although he was probably the second best ally of the Allies behind Hitler himself. World War II can be looked at objectively as a long act of suicide by Nazis who made fatal mistake after fatal mistake until surrounded by stupid errors, they were overrun by their own incompetence. Here's Allied propagandist, Hermann Goering:

Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.

~Hermann Wilhelm Göring at the Nuremberg trials 1946

But that is not authority enough. Let us quote the last and only real Fuhrer the Reich ever had: Admiral Karl Doenitz. To impugn his words is to impugn Germany itself, but the Nazi wannabes who deny Hitler's greatest achievement, the slaughter of every Jew he could, as they impugn Hitler would not hesitate to attempt to brand Admiral Doenitz as well. I am under no illusions as to how low they would sink, how much they would lie, and how cowardly they are (that is why they are not danger to the world). They certainly will claim Admiral Doenitz is a traitor to Germany with these words, which clearly show that Poland was a planned act and all the politcal window dressing merely play acting for the benefit of the gullible like Fahnendude.

Doenitz, Ten Years and Twenty Days, pg 41
I was not alone in my conviction in the early spring of 1939 that we must, as speedily as possible, build submarines in great numbers. Shortly afterwards, there followed the occupation of Czechoslovakia and the British guarantee to Poland. On April 26, 1939, Hitler repudiated the Anglo-German Naval Agreement. The abrogation of this treaty, which had only been signed in 1935, was an exceptionally strong political measure. It indicated quite clearly that the policy of trying to reach agreement with Britain had been abandoned.

Pg 42: On July 22, 1939, at Swinemuende, Raeder communicated Hitler's reply (to Doenitz request for more U-Boats to built more quickly) to the assembled officers of the U-boat arm on board the yacht Grille: He would ensure that in no circumstances would war with Britain come about. For that would mean Finis Germaniae. The officers of the U-Boat arm had no cause to worry.

Pg 44 (August 28, 1939 memorandum to Adm Raeder) Every possible means, both normal and abnormal, must be devoted to putting the U-boat arm in a state which will enable it to fulfill its primary function: namely the military defeat of Britain.

Finally direct proof that mass killings of undesirables, especially including Jews, was indeed performed in Nazi Germany, where "without hate" (you say) they were shot, gassed, clothing, shoes, jewelry, even the fillings on their teeth, carefully extracted, sorted, painstakingly accounted for in a sick and twisted exercise of human evil.

Karl Doenitz: The biggest mistake of Hitler, I have to say the main fault, was that under his government these terrific exterminations of men happened, which went on behind the backs of the German nation, which would never have tolerated them, but the government kept these crimes completely secret from the German people.

The World at War: the Landmark Oral History from the Classic TV Series (2007) by Richard Holmes, Page 316

Unfortunately, I must disagree with Doenitz' generous granting of the German people with “went on behind the backs of the German nation, which would never have tolerated them, but the government kept these crimes completely secret from the German people. “ I think the police state was plenty strong enough to intimidate the German people into accepting anything they did. After all, they needed the cooperation of the German people to round up those Jews in the first place, to confiscate their belongings, to brutalize them on their way to the concentration camps.

Ironically, the one nation which Germany occupied where Nazi intimidation did not result in the rounding up and murder of just about every Jew in the country was Italy, where a genuinely decent people sheltered and hid the vast majority of Jews at the risk of their own lives, through the entire period of Nazi thuggery. Those Italians are true heroes of World War II. We will never know who they were but we are all indebted to them.

In view of this, let's dissect Fahnendude's self-indicting post of this morning and see what admissions of German thuggery it contains.

“- repressive police ? yes, against communists “
The Polish citizen murdered in the Gleiwitz incident was not communist. Neither were the Jewish prisoners of Dachau who were murdered and put into Polish uniforms for the presentation of “canned goods” the laughingly mocking term the hoodlums used as they performed what they saw as a joke.

“- racial superiority ? not at all : racial purity, without hate for other races“
Racial purity based on twisted ideas of “Aryan” supermen. Hitler, a man not of Arayan origins (whatever that means) and with Jewish ancestors, who would have killed himself had he met a duplicate in the wild, without hate, chose not to expel those he hated, but to KILL them. Kill them not within the borders of Germany, but within the borders of all territory he conquered, including Greece, France, the low countries (which he also brutally attacked without warning or justification), Poland and Czechoslovakia. He even killed them in Russia! Your words expose you as one who believes himself entitled, as you boldly say the Nazis were entitled, to kill everyone you choose for any reason you choose and the ones you kill are guilty because they failed to yield to your will. Hitler would be jumping up and down and cheering at my statement here, saying “You understand! Indominable will and the brutal application of force is all that improve the state of the world. Long live war!” That is a near perfect quote from Mein Kampf, by the way. He would kill you with the Jews as a coward. Which you are.

“- anti-semitism ? of course, they had several reasons “
Jews were instrumental in the German prosecution of World War I. They were a tremendous asset to the German nation and would have been front and center backing the war effort the second time. The reasons Hitler had were known only to himself. But one thing we do know. His murder of Jews was his primary motivating factor: the thing that unified all his other actions. Nothing was as important to Hitler as the extermination of the Jewish people, not Russia, not England, not France. Jewish murder came first, before the attack on Poland. In fact, murdered Jews were the centerpiece of his fake attack on the Gleiwitz radio station. Murder of Jews came first because it was a primary goal.

“Oppressed and massacred German minorities in Poland, Germany cut in two parts, Poland refusing negotiations = sufficient to invade Poland to get what they historically and ethnically had the right to have.”

It has been sufficiently proved that oppression and massacring of Germans in Poland was mostly German farce. http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/history/WWII/1939/Gleiwitz.shtml, James J. Wirtz, Roy Godson, Strategic Denial and Deception: The Twenty-First Century Challenge, Transaction Publishers, 2002, ISBN 0-7658-0898-6 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0765808986), Google Print, p.100 (http://books.google.com/books?id=PzfQSlTJTXkC&pg=PA100&ots=ouNc9JPz4y&dq=Gleiwitz+incident&as_brr=3&sig=WZF91Hk_0WybC1nqbS8Ghw7nTzw) , Christopher J. Ailsby, The Third Reich Day by Day, Zenith Imprint, 2001, ISBN 0-7603-1167-6 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0760311676), Google Print, p.112 (http://books.google.com/books?id=TMdZSJGWaIYC&pg=PA112&dq=Gleiwitz+incident&as_brr=3&sig=WzKCJ2wdK-HI3d_BbZR49ofZspg#PPA112,M1) , John S. Craig, Peculiar Liaisons in War, Espionage, and Terrorism of the Twentieth Century, Algora Publishing, 2005, ISBN 0-87586-331-0 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0875863310), Google Print, p.180 (http://books.google.com/books?id=xNMVVsHEm5cC&pg=PA180&dq=%22Operation+Himmler%22&lr=&ei=BiTOR7GnBZXCzAS5ttzRCA&sig=aLm49-yGp9Mf94oPrpAwcabOu-o)

Your position is bankrupt. Your entire "justification" is a sick sense of entitlement to do whatever the Nazis planned to do in advance and that the act of refusing to surrender to that will is an act of war against Germany. It is the sickness of a criminal who believes that because he wants something he is entitled to that. In such a twisted mind that makes all who resist his will at fault because their non-compliance required unavoidable force to obtain what the thug wanted. Nazi Germany was that way. They were dealt with in the only way they would understand. Complete imposition of the irresistible force that they themselves used as the instrument of their criminality.

Aggressors in wars determine the rules under which the war is fought. The alternative is surrender to those aggressors. That is because those who defend must exert sufficient force, opposite to the force of the aggressor, to render them dead. That was done. It was rightly done.

Now Germany is a great, independent nation. Its people are citizens of the world, equal to any, including the United States. At great expense, the Allies helped rebuild Germany, set them back on their own feet. They are not puppets, they have established in peace one of the greatest industrial powerhouses on Earth. But most gratifying is how they accomplished the reunification of East and West Germany, not by conquest, threat and bloodshed, but by reaching out at great expense to those Germans in the East and accepting the hardship of adopting them back into the German nation. In doing so, Germany thoroughly repudiated its past, tossing the Nazi mythology in the trash bin as a twisted, evil nightmare that never will be repeated. Brutal force is not the duct tape, Vise Grips and hammer that fixes the human condition. They found a better way and it works.

(http://books.google.com/books?id=xNMVVsHEm5cC&pg=PA180&dq=%22Operation+Himmler%22&lr=&ei=BiTOR7GnBZXCzAS5ttzRCA&sig=aLm49-yGp9Mf94oPrpAwcabOu-o)

Raptor1

01-26-16, 11:40 AM

Ah, a good argument, I admit. Could you give me a link please ?

Here you go (https://ia801901.us.archive.org/20/items/LipskiJozef1968DiplomatInBerlin19331939/Lipski,%20J%C3%B3zef%201968%20-%20Diplomat%20in%20Berlin%201933%20-%201939.pdf).

But I'm pointing out the fact that these are only Memoirs, so they must be very less precise than a daily report, as Ribbentrop made. When did he write them ? After the war ? It's very easy to rearrange facts after they have taken place. Are there any official documents ?

Ribbentrop also wrote about it much later. It's easy to rearrange the facts when you're trying to justify a war. Lipski also mentions a speech made by Beck in May, 1939 that mentions Poland's willingness to negotiate, though, which is harder to rearrange.

Fahnenbohn

01-26-16, 12:06 PM

Lipski also mentions a speech made by Beck in May, 1939 that mentions Poland's willingness to negotiate, though, which is harder to rearrange.

This is very unclear, this is only a word. What did they propose ??

Raptor1

01-26-16, 12:11 PM

This is very unclear, this is only a word. What did they propose ??

Does it matter? You said that Poland regarded talk about Danzig as war. This is manifestly false even by a logical interpretation of what Ribbentrop said, let alone everything else.

This (http://ww2db.com/doc.php?q=250) seems to be the text of the speech, in any case.

MLF

01-26-16, 12:20 PM

I finally see a debate unfolding with statements AND sources:yeah:

Fahnenbohn

01-26-16, 12:26 PM

This (http://ww2db.com/doc.php?q=250) seems to be the text of the speech, in any case.

Thank you.