What is going on in Poland ?!

[Catfish]

For all that can be seen they are on the way into a dictatorship, wth has happened there?

[Oberon]

Democracy gone very very wrong. :nope:
Still, that's what happens in times like these, crisis takes hold of Europe and people go to extremes.

[Schroeder]

People got fed up with the current goons and thought it would be wise to teach them a lesson by either not voting or voting for PiS. Now that backfired royally and they'll have a pseudo democracy ala Russia soon with propaganda media and a corrupt justice system. I'm sure we'll see a lot of journalists being prosecuted for tax evasion and slave labor in the not so distant future.
But it's up to the Poles to remedy that now before it's too late. We shouldn't get involved or PiS will claim "foreign interventions against Poland".:/\\!!:/\\!!

That should also be a wake up call to all of our useless politicians. If people get too fed up then the dictatorship is just one botched election away.:nope:
I just doubt they'll learn that lesson.

[Oberon]

I'd say that we could boot them out of the EU if they don't shape up...but we're looking to bring Turkey in...so.... :dead:

[Catfish]

^ You? Will be leaving the EU as soon as the referendum gets started. :hmmm:

[STEED]

^ You? Will be leaving the EU as soon as the referendum gets started. :hmmm:

Fat chance ToffBoy or as Oberon would say Pig Man Cameron will stitch up the UK like a right royal kipper. He will do to us what was done to the Irish. They vote out and what happen the vote was rerunned to get the stay in answer. :nope:

[Oberon]

Fat chance ToffBoy or as Oberon would say Pig Man Cameron will stitch up the UK like a right royal kipper. He will do to us what was done to the Irish. They vote out and what happen the vote was rerunned to get the stay in answer. :nope:

^ You? Will be leaving the EU as soon as the referendum gets started. :hmmm:

Actually, I have a feeling that Catfish might be right, there'd be chaos if Manbearpig tried to stitch this referendum up.
Believe me though Catfish, I will be voting to stay in the EU...even if I think the thing is doomed unless some backbone is shown amongst the top leaders of it in order to kick the nations like Poland and Hungary into line.

[Respenus]

Fat chance ToffBoy or as Oberon would say Pig Man Cameron will stitch up the UK like a right royal kipper. He will do to us what was done to the Irish. They vote out and what happen the vote was rerunned to get the stay in answer. :nope:

I do not wish to enter into a debate into what your PM will do concerning the re-negotiations of UK's relationship with the EU, however, I do wish to make a point concerning the Irish referendum.

The Irish, like the Danish before them in 1992, rejected a legal document or deal if you wish to call it that, not in its entirety (as if I remember, neither country wanted to exit the EU at that point or opposed wholesale its new rules), but certain elements that they felt infringed on their notion of how their country should cooperate with other Member States and the EEC/EU institutions.

They were, after the original negative referendum, offered a modified deal, which took into account their specific concerns, which they then passed. In the case of the Irish, 20% of those voting previously voting "No" were convinced to vote "For" the modified Lisbon treaty the second time around.

I realise that many across Europe consider this a "stinker" and as manipulation of the public will, however, like any other law, I personally see it as a second reading amendment/modification. As it often happens, not all parties were aware of the constraints they were working in, which occurs far more often than anyone in politics would like and leads to miscalculation and massive headaches (WWI being a very graphic example of such miscalculations).

Having said that, I have to say that what was done after the 2004 referendum was far more problematic from a democratic point of view and is, in my opinion, the reason behind the bad will surrounding the second Irish referendum.

--

As for Poland, things are going to hell in a handbasket. Things are far more critical than in Hungary, however, as Poland is/was a major source of inspiration for post-Soviet republics and its foreign policy of supporting reform and turning towards the West is going to suffer as a result. Furthermore, it is a member of Weimar Triangle or put differently, one of the Big Three continental Member States (no disrespect meant to Italy or Spain), so anything problematic going on there is going to influence the whole of the EU.

Poland turning to an Orban/Putin style leadership not slowly over time, but in a matter of a few months after its parliamentary elections does not bode well for anyone. I would not even be surprised if other Member States or the European Parliament - I am doubtful the Commission under Juncker would do so - threatened to use or even use Article 7 of the Treaty on the European Union (page 26, 27) (http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-6655-2008-REV-8/en/pdf). It is the so-called "nuclear article", as it would ultimately and after a very long and politically fraught procedure end in the temporary suspension of voting rights of a Member State in case of the "existence of a serious and persistent breach by a Member State of the values /of the EU/".

With PiS apparently hell-bent to undo the last 8 years of Civic Platform governance, things are probably going to get a lot worse before they get better.

[ikalugin]

We would see how it develops. It would sort of be amusing if Poland actually fights a war with Germany and wins.

[Jimbuna]

We would see how it develops. It would sort of be amusing if Poland actually fights a war with Germany and wins.

Are we expected to take the above comment literally?

[ikalugin]

Yes.

But this comment is there to illustrate weakness of German Armed Forces. So the comment is humouress/satirical in nature.

[Catfish]

Yes, Poland has already invaded us, with washing machines, electronic devices of all kinds, and even our neighbours come from Poland.

It is the end, i tell you :har:

[Sailor Steve]

Yes, Poland has already invaded us, with washing machines, electronic devices of all kinds, and even our neighbours come from Poland.

It is the end, i tell you :har:
Have they taken over any radio stations yet? :O:

[Penguin]

Have they taken over any radio stations yet? :O:

Yes, they have. (http://www.dw.com/pl/start/s-11394)

[Sailor Steve]

Yes, they have.
Oh, well, if I could read it I'd probably start proclaiming the end of civilization as we know it. :sunny:

[Penguin]

Oh, well, if I could read it I'd probably start proclaiming the end of civilization as we know it. :sunny:

Well you better start learning Polish ( or click on the upper right corner -> choose language :03:)

It's Deutsche Welle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Welle), our state-funded international radio - a pretty good source for news considering Germany, quite renowned and neutral.

[Captain Jeff]

There are a lot of people here in the U.S. with no faith in a republic as a form of government. A lot of people feel that representatives don't care about representing us but only pander to the small, and seemingly wealthiest, section of society. When people think the "leaders" they voted in don't represent them it creates a lot of voter apathy. We had a very low turnout in our last election, lower than it has been since WW2 when a lot of people didn't vote because they were overseas.

I don't know a lot about Poland but maybe the same thing is going on over there. People don't vote and then they're stuck with someone who has totalitarian aspirations. If this is the case, perhaps they'll wake up and vote this guy out.

Or maybe they prefer some sort of dictator. At least it's not a republic, which they have lost faith in. Some who no longer trust a republic may choose to go toward a dictator form of government and others may choose direct democracy.

Whatever the reason, I wish the people Poland well. I hope they can solve this problem in a way that won't leave them in jeopardy.

[Oberon]

There are a lot of people here in the U.S. with no faith in a republic as a form of government.

Not just the US, but what can you do? I mean what other forms of government are there which work better? What goals should a government work towards? For the people or for the nation?
Perhaps in a hundred years or so (providing we haven't blown ourselves up by then) there will be an AI government which will run according to the mood of the people which would be regulated through regular polling. Even then though I suspect that it will only please a select group of people.
As the saying goes, you can't please everyone. :03:

[em2nought]

Have they taken over any radio stations yet? :O:
hehe :har:

[Catfish]

hehe, you could listen to the infamous polish "Radio Maria":
http://www.radiomaria.org/

They paint themselves as religious, but what they really do is support right-extremist views, supporting all the political nutjobs.

But hey isn't that what most do? After all if people would really think, all this (self)right(eous) blunder would be gone in a second. I really miss people like Sagan.

[Schroeder]

The Polish constitutional court has ruled the judicial reforms of PiS as unconstitutional. PiS however doesn't acknowledge the verdict...:/\\!!

http://news.newsdirectory2.com/court-polish-judicial-reform-is-unconstitutional/

All ahead flank to the dictatorship. :wah::wah::/\\!!:/\\!!

[nikimcbee]

For all that can be seen they are on the way into a dictatorship, wth has happened there?

You guys (Germany) could re-invade? Second time a charm? We need some new history anyway for computer games to be written from. WW2 as been done to death I think, and I'm ready for some fresh material!
Do you split Poland with Putin though?
Merkel... riding in an open hatch of a panzer FTW.
At least yousa guys have the cool matching music.:up:
You do have a "Z Plan", don't you.

Don't worry Poland, Obama totally has your back covered.

[Reece]

Don't worry Poland, Obama totally has your back covered.
Not for long!!! Trump??:hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Don't worry Poland, Obama totally has your back covered.

Not for long!!! Trump??:hmmm:

Simples....he'll build a large tall wall.

[Oberon]

Germany could always order a recall of the various parts of the Berlin wall that have immigrated since it came down. I know that there's one part outside the Imperial War Museum in London. :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Speaking of right wing populism, AFD will probably be doing well today.

https://media.giphy.com/media/18u9KWXTyH516/giphy.gif

[Rockstar]

Operation Barbarossa II has been a GO for awhile now. Wonder if regime change in Poland is a planned event to get NATO to check its six and off Russia's doorstep?

[Catfish]

Speaking of right wing populism, AFD will probably be doing well today.

https://media.giphy.com/media/18u9KWXTyH516/giphy.gif

It did. 21 percent in one county :shifty:
I guess they will have good relations, with Trump :dead:

[Oberon]

It did. 21 percent in one county :shifty:
I guess they will have good relations, with Trump :dead:

:hmmm: I hear that New Zealand is nice...

[Catfish]

:hmmm: I hear that New Zealand is nice...

:hmmm: Hmm yes

But there were some people who saw it all coming, and decided to emigrate to a remote island and live there, before WW2 started.

They chose the Solomon islands.

[Oberon]

:hmmm: Hmm yes

But there were some people who saw it all coming, and decided to emigrate to a remote island and live there, before WW2 started.

They chose the Solomon islands.

Oh dear... :dead:

[ikalugin]

Well, poles now claim that we have downed that airliner with their president years back on purpose.

[Betonov]

Well, poles now claim that we have downed that airliner with their president years back on purpose.

You were responsible for every mess since the fall of the Roman empire

[Oberon]

You were responsible for every mess since the fall of the Roman empire

It was the Russians who caused the extinction of the dinosaurs don't you know? I mean, where was the most destructive impact event in modern history? Tunguska in Russia! Where did the most recent close call happen? Chelyabinsk in Russia!

It's clearly Russias fault. :nope:

[Schroeder]

Well, poles now claim that we have downed that airliner with their president years back on purpose.
Was to be expected.:dead:

:/\\!!:/\\!!

[Catfish]

Well, poles now claim that we have downed that airliner with their president years back on purpose.


I heard and read that cockpit chatter and this little black box proved it was Lech Kaczyński himself, who ordered the pilot to land despite of the bad weather conditions.
Do not molest nationalists with facts, their opinion always stands fast without it :dead:

But, as a slight retour via Ikalugin, maybe a nationalist Poland now declares war to Russia? Of course using some pretext like an attacked polish radio station, and then go for it with Trump on their side. :hmmm:

[Rockstar]

I like this Law & Justice party way of thinking..

...Law and Justice, on the other hand, has argued that Poland should resist EU pressure to take in migrants and instead make policy decisions based on Polish interests. The party has warned that there is a serious danger of making the same mistakes as many West European countries, whereby a large number of migrants who do not respect Polish laws and customs end up imposing their way of life so that Poles become ‘guests in their own country’. It has cited examples of EU states with large Muslim communities where it claims that such a scenario is already unfolding


https://polishpoliticsblog.wordpress.com/2015/10/26/what-does-a-law-and-justice-election-victory-mean-for-europe/

[ikalugin]

I heard and read that cockpit chatter and this little black box proved it was Lech Kaczyński himself, who ordered the pilot to land despite of the bad weather conditions.
Do not molest nationalists with facts, their opinion always stands fast without it :dead:

But, as a slight retour via Ikalugin, maybe a nationalist Poland now declares war to Russia? Of course using some pretext like an attacked polish radio station, and then go for it with Trump on their side. :hmmm:
I think Poles are more likely to invade Germany, considering how they have stronger Armed Forces (/trollface/). But to answer your question - poles are indeed pumped with the anti-Russian sentiments (not that some of the things they say don't have basis in the reality, but now the anti-Russia stance appears to be a state policy).

If I were an american imperialist (I am not), I would even say that Poland is there as a barrier between Russia-Germany union (not that it is likely), which could change the geopolitics in Europe. I mean, immagine Russia joining the EU with strong Russia-Germany ties (like a formal bilateral alliance).

[Schroeder]

I like this Law & Justice party way of thinking..

While I agree with that one point I'm also aware of all the other things they did, like practically eliminating free press and rendering the constitutional court pretty much useless.

Yeah, totally likable.....not.:down:

[Catfish]

Like i said, maybe England (NOT the whole UK) and Poland can have their own trade block, and then Rumania and Hungary will join. Seems they have a lot more in common, than what the EU stands for :dead:

[Schroeder]

Seems they have a lot more in common, than what the EU stands for :dead:
What does the EU stand for these days?:hmm2:

[Catfish]

If you don't know that you are probably on the same level like the Brexits in England :D

Free trade, no customs, freedom of travel, no visa, police supporting directly and effortless across the borders, and a bit of peace since 71 years.
Yes i guess you meant it tongue in cheek.

Of course times could be more interesting, like in WW2.

[Catfish]

... that Poland is there as a barrier between Russia-Germany union (not that it is likely), which could change the geopolitics in Europe. I mean, imagine Russia joining the EU with strong Russia-Germany ties (like a formal bilateral alliance).

Yes i had high hopes for a russian-german treaty as a step for later entry into the EU, as it was thought of and planned in the "Petersburger Gespraeche". But with anti-russian propaganda dating from the cold war together with the Ukraine incidents and following sanctions the talks have stopped dead in the water.
Also, the political party which initiated this is not longer in power, and you know what happens when the political wind changes..

Apart from that we have quite a lot of opinion formers in the media and industry, from a kind of club that calls itself the "Atlantikbruecke" and recruits "young leaders" intended to shape the public opinion to a pro-western and anti-russian point of view.

If you look at a map, it is not automatically obvious that the EU should have trade with the 4000-km-far USA, but not with Russia. After 1989, there is no direct reason for this anymore, but certain circles of course prefer the status quo.


And then, there is TTIP. :shifty:

[Rockstar]

While I agree with that one point I'm also aware of all the other things they did, like practically eliminating free press and rendering the constitutional court pretty much useless.

Yeah, totally likable.....not.:down:

Could be. But I know when a certain President took office here he was looked at as the spawn of satan, the anti-christ setting out to destroy the constitution and freedom as the world knows it. Hasnt happened yet, though I keep hearing it will any day now.:)

New government new boogie man.

Has JIS really set out to destroy the constitution and freedom? IMO probaly not. Though I keep hearing it will anyday now.

[Catfish]

It seems Poland has nothing against the EU, just against immigration.
And it seems it's not the only nation.
So are they racist? Xenophobes?

If unwanted immigration is the real reason you want to leave the Eu, i'd say "go", but i'd probably use two other words like "..... off".

[mapuc]

Have to ask you something

What does the ordinary Polish people say about this ?

I have seen demonstration here and there in Poland. They were thousands. These thousand does not count for every citizens in Poland.

Markus

[Catfish]

The "ordinary" people have not much say anymore, biggest radio and TV company and a lot of other media are now state-owned, all who protested or were supposed to be suspicious of the "new" government have either been arrested or "released" from their job.

Had never thought that would ever be possible in Europe again, and just of all in Poland. But the "patriotic Kaczinski spirit" is stronger than ever, if only in the current government. A lot of people protest, you gotta cut them slack..

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/13/opinion/poland-deviates-from-democracy.html?_r=0

http://www.euronews.com/2015/12/20/rallies-across-poland-as-thousands-accuse-the-new-government-of-a-creeping/

https://www.rt.com/news/335400-poland-protests-warsaw-constitution/

From a comment:

" ... This government is blatantly anti-Semitic. It's also promotes homophobia, xenophobia, and any phobia that may serve as a political to promote its negative rhetoric. Thankfully, only 37 % of Polish voters voted for them (out of 50 % of the eligible voting age population that actually went to the poles--no pun intended!). Regardless, this type of thinking is not acceptable for a modern society. It's the philosophy of cowards."


From an article:

" ... The problem is that Mr. Kaczynski, and others who similarly perceive the European Union or the institutions of liberal democracy as a threat to their way of life, fail to understand that a union of shared values and liberties, and independent institutions to safeguard them, is the surest defense against the sort of dictatorship they endured under Communism. ..."

Seems to be a Europe-wide movement, back to the roots (read: stone age). If they leave the EU only because of xenophobia...

[Rockstar]

Sources Ive read say 80% of media oulets in Poland have been and still are foreign owned. It is only the Polish Public TV and radio that are the center of all the hub-bub.

No government regulation of internet either.

[ikalugin]

Sources Ive read say 80% of media oulets in Poland have been and still are foreign owned. It is only the Polish Public TV and radio that are the center of all the hub-bub.

No government regulation of internet either.

That sounds bad, when majority of your media is owned by foreigners.

[Rockstar]

meh, nothing compared to all the land the Chinese are buying up over here.