SH4 Targeting

[Majestik 909]

Interestingly, the lock in periscope view always focuses dead amidships. What is a good targeting method when you prefer a bow or stern shot?

[SilentPrey]

I've been using the O'Kane method and firing as the part of the ship that I want to hit crosses the wire. The other thing you can do if you want to have it locked while you fire is to offset the angle that you want to hit ahead or behind the wire. That's a bit trickier; at 500 yards 1 degree of offset will move the impact far less than at 5,000 yards. I haven't done that math, sorry.

[Majestik 909]

Thanks, Silent...

[SilentPrey]

No problem. Happy hunting!

[TorpX]

Interestingly, the lock in periscope view always focuses dead amidships. What is a good targeting method when you prefer a bow or stern shot?

Ummm.... not sure why you would want a bow or stern shot.

In any case, to use the offset dial, as suggested by SilentPrey, estimate the angular length of the target. This can be done by unlocking the scope finding the bearing of the stern, then the bow, and taking the difference. Then use an appropriate offset for your spread.

For example:

A tanker at AOB 120° has it's stern at bearing 258°, and bow at 261.5°. This means it has an apparent angular length of 3.5°. So, for a 3 torpedo spread, we can launch one torp at -1.0°, one with no offset, and one with +1.0°. This will give us 57% coverage [2°/3.5°].

Of course, you could use more or less. Generally, RL skippers used 80 to 100%, but I suppose it would depend. The estimate of apparent target length should be done shortly before lauching, as changes in the AOB, or range, would make the result different.

The above method does not take into account target movement, changes in range (between firing and impact), or such, but should suffice for our purposes.

The main reasons for using a spread is to increase the chances of a hit, and to increase the damage to the target. If you were only going to fire one torpedo, it should really be at the middle of the target. This would allow for the greatest error.



************************************************** **

Welcome back from shore leave, SilentPrey!

I haven't seen you around for a while.

Taking a break from your saltwater adventures, I suppose?

[ColonelSandersLite]

TorpX is right on the money with using spread, I just thought I would add one cautionary note (from experience when I was still a noob). We'll use a fresh example of target's bow is at bearing 350° and targets stern is at bearing 340° for an apparent length of 10°.

It is very important to note that this is total ship length, and it is easy to screw up by just jumping to the conclusion that 10° is the maximum spread angle. Suppose that, having made this mistake, you then decide to divide that by 2 to hit in the middle of the bow half. This gives a an incorrect spread angle of 5°. Assuming that the target takes no evasive action, that actually puts the torpedo right at the tip of the bow/stern and has a high probability of missing, depending on which way the errors in your firing solution go. So, just remember that since your zero point is ship's dead center, maximum spread is "apparent angular length / 2", not just "apparent angular length".

In truth though, with experience you will probably just come up with some internal rules of thumb on spread depending on target range. It's very, very, very rare that I actually go to the effort to do it like that.

[ColonelSandersLite]

Assuming manual targeting, there are two other primary methods of targeting specific parts of a ship that I routinely use. There may be more I don't use and so they aren't coming to mind.

First, when you are shooting without the position keeper active:
Point the periscope at the bearing you will shoot at and enter the parameters into the TDC for where the target will be *when you fire will fire*. You fire your torpedoes as the ship crosses the centerline of the periscope. Assuming that your targeting data is correct and the target does not evade, you will hit the part of the ship that was at the periscope's center line at the time of firing. From all the talk and tutorial video's I've seen around here, this is mostly done with firing solution where torpedo gyro angle is at or near 0 (but doesn't have to be). This method works by introducing a deliberate offset into the lead angle.

Second, with the position keeper active:
Enter targeting data into the TDC normally. Just before you want to fire, update range and bearing with a fresh stadimeter reading and send to the TDC. Unlock the periscope and point it just ahead of the part of the ship that you want to hit. As the part of the ship that you want to hit is crossing the centerline of the periscope, resend the range and bearing. Fire at will. This method works by introducing a deliberate offset into the data for the target's position.

While they are not TDC tutorial videos, I used both of these methods in my advanced convoy attack tutorial series.

I think the following works, but I'm not 100% sure since I haven't really used automatic targeting outside of a few experiments.

When using automatic targeting, there is one other useful method. Point the periscope just ahead of the part of the ship that you want to hit. DO NOT lock the periscope. As the part of the ship that you want to hit crosses the centerline of the periscope, fire your torpedo.

[Majestik 909]

Col and Torpx - Many thanks. I really appreciate your experience.

I am not as skilled as you gentleman and your information helps greatly. I am a patient hunter. I usually pursue a convoy for many real time hours, closing to under a 1000 meters before firing a near perfect shot into my target from a point a few degrees off its bow. I also like to watch activity on deck as i am lining up for a shot.

Your methods have me intrigued and I want to experiment with them. I may have to ask you both some questions.

I got into some real trouble on a recent mission. U-796 was assigned to engage a convoy before it arrived in Port Elizabeth. I managed to intercept the convoy near Seychelles. To my surprise, my target was a Titanic-esque liner with lots of men walking along deck with at least 6 destroyer escorts. Since the liner was zig-zagging and blacked out, I began my approach through the escorts.

The destroyers were quick to detect me and I was soon working hard to avoid being sunk. I managed to close on the liner and hide by staying a few hundred yards off it's stern and anticipating its course changes.

I spent many hours hiding iin this fashion. Each time the liner would make a greater course deviation I would again be attacked.

Finally, with battery power getting low I decided to attack in dramatic fashion. I noticed the liner had no depth charge racks or guns, so I surfaced along it's starboard side while all escorts were on the port side. I saw two destroyers approaching the liner on a course that would take them across its port bow.

I set my pistols to magnetic, depth 1.5 meters on a course of 000. I fired in some way as one would fire at an aircraft. Not really aimed, but I figured I could hit them. I hit both destroyers and sank them both. I immediately submerged to periscope depth and used a combination of back emergency and full rudder to open distance between me and the liner as she turned to avoid the sinking destroyers. I was amazed to see the liner accidentally ram and sink an old freighter that was in the convoy.

I managed to line up on the liner at about 400 meters maybe 30 degrees off the starboard bow. With escorts in pursuit I just locked the liner in my periscope view and fired 3 fish. I began a crash dive at flank speed as soon as the last fish cleared the tubes. I set depth for 120 meters and waited for the depth charges. I heard three torpedo impacts snd curiously looked at the surface camera view to see the liner listing to starboard and on firr with many lifeboats in the water.

What followed was hours of being pursued and depth charged. I was finally able to surface at night in a storm and eventually made it back to Batavia. The liner, which is shown in the log i posted here previously, netted some serious tonnage.

I am eager to employ the methods you have described, but I am having a little trouble with the math.

[Majestik 909]

Colonel - I have been maneuvering for a near perfect zero degree heading shot. This takes a lot of time, but I enjoy it. I have read some guys like to run a parallel course and fire a torpedo that turns into the target.

Is any approach considered optimal in your opinion?

[Majestik 909]

No luck posting a periscope view

[ColonelSandersLite]

U-796

U-boats? Different kettle of fish. The basic ideas are similar, but the specifics are different due to the different operation of the TDCs. I can post details on it a little later. If you're wanting U-boat tips, you're best off specifying. Most people sort of ignore the U-boats in SH4 and treat the u-boat expansion as mostly a big bugfix so the assumption is usually that you're talking about fleet boats. The reason for this is simply that SH3 does a *much* better job with the u-boats and it is by far the best u-boat sim around, even if it's not quite as pretty as sh4.

Colonel - I have been maneuvering for a near perfect zero degree heading shot. This takes a lot of time, but I enjoy it. I have read some guys like to run a parallel course and fire a torpedo that turns into the target.

Is any approach considered optimal in your opinion?

Shooting with a gyro angle of 0 is the ideal. This is because the closer to 0 gyro you fire, the less important range is. Specifically, while it's counter-intuitive, if neither the torpedo or the target change range and speed, the lead angle does not change with range. That being said, the tactical situation may dictate that shooting at 0 gyro is not practical.

The guys that run parallel to the target are usually talking about attacking a convoy from between the lanes with very close range shots. In that specific case, the time it takes for the torpedo to turn to course is used to partially mitigate the torpedo minimum range factor.


Edit: Also, when asking for help with attacking targets, you kinda need to tell us if you're using the manual or automatic TDC difficulty setting. It makes a difference ;).

[Majestik 909]

Sorry, Colonel.....still really new to this. I'm using both manual and automatic depending on the situation.

I'm now at the top of the tonnage charts and still have missions to go, but I figure if I use your methodology and less dramatic attacks, my character will live longer....

[Majestik 909]

Colonel.....

I think I may have figured this out.

When I first began playing SH4, I concentrated heavily on closing to less than 1000 meters from a target at very near to a right angle, and generally less than 20 degrees AOB. I hadn't yet discovered the manual controls in the U-Boats' torpedo station.

What I started doing was deflection shooting by guess and by golly based on where I thought the ship would be given the G7e/T3's 30 knot speed. I got good at this but its not as accurate as your methods.

Now I am starting to actually draw out my attack on paper and your advice is starting to make sense.

[SilentPrey]

Welcome back from shore leave, SilentPrey!

I haven't seen you around for a while.

Taking a break from your saltwater adventures, I suppose?




You could say that. I'm finally back in college. (Dozen year break.) Turns out that learning Latin doesn't leave much time for Maru harassment. Now that finals are over I've time to play and troll the forums.


Majestik,

You were using Kentucky Windage and getting hits? I'm very impressed. You're one of those guys that left on the Oregon Trail with just a rifle and a wagon load of bullets, aren't you?

I'll confess that I have never played a U-Boat in SH4. I never got the impression that the mods for the U-Boat side came anywhere near SH3 with GWX so that's what I use for the other side. That said; the O'Kane method should serve you well in U-boats too.

Here's where Rockin Robbins details the process for both the O'Kane method and the Fast 90. Enjoy! http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67

SilentPrey

[ColonelSandersLite]

You wanna know something interesting? As you gain a greater familiarity with working torpedo firing solutions, your ability to just guess the correct (or near enough) lead angle will actually improve.

[Majestik 909]

You gentlemen could be right about thechi ice American subs having better targeting in SH4. My youngest son (7) likes to play quick missions and I noticed it was really easy for him to score hits at even 40% realism. My feeling was the American boat didn't dive as deep or as fast and didn't seem as maneuverable as my U-Boat.

Silent,

I have a long history in civilian police and military and auto racing before that, so before I figured out how to target properly I would just make some rudimentary calculations.

I know that 30 knots is around 50 feet per second and each degree of course variation will alter point of impact 5 feet for every 100 yards. Using the periscope readout to find yardage and speed allowed me to cook up a shot with fairly decent results on big slow targets, or DD'S up close.

Now with some of the tutorials and advice found here, I'm getting better at doing it "right" and scoring hits from a safer distance...

[ColonelSandersLite]

You would be right in thinking that the uboats dive faster and are more maneuverable but there is more to submarine warfare than that and the american subs definitely have their advantages. There's a persistent idea out there that the u-boats where just better than the us subs but it's largely the result of propaganda. I.E. We where on the receiving end of the u-boat campaigns and deliberately didn't publish much of anything about our own subs.


For starters, the american TDC's position keeper makes the american TDC hands down superior to the german equivalent.

The american subs are straight up faster than the german subs.

The american subs have more firepower than the german subs. All us subs being manufactured at the start of WW2 had 6 bow and 4 stern tubes with older models having less. Compare to the german setups of 4 bow and 1 or 2 stern.

The american radar and radar detection packages are just flatly superior to the german stuff.

The american boats are pretty much all able to go as far as the type 9s, easily out ranging the type 7s

You won't really see the effects in the game, but quality of life for the sailors was much better on an american submarine than a german submarine.



All that being said, don't get the impression that I don't like the german boats. But IMHO, it's like Silent said. SH3 with GWX is definitely where it's at for them.

[Majestik 909]

I seemed to have earned the new U Boat. It has a load out of 17 torpedoes on board and 6 forward, but no stern tubes. It's much better at evading surface craft, but I killed more ships with the old boat. Being able to launch torpedoes and simultaneously attack with deck gun yielded more tonnage.

My record thus far was 10 merchants in a single convoy attack.

[Majestik 909]

Colonel....

You may laugh but my favorite u boat of all time is the XXIII. Not saying it is better, just simple and interesting to me. I always told my wife if I win a huge lottery, I want to have Voss and Blohm build me a Typ XXIII and embark on a world cruise with it.

I have got really good at my current boat. I can out turn destroyers and dive super deep. I routinely cruise at 140 meters when depth provides for it. I'm now in January 1945 and 9 combat patrols in. thus far i am just 300,000 GRT sunk.

[Hambone307]

I use auto targeting and have yet to touch the offset dial for my spreads. I lock the target, and track him. This way the computer fills in everything and all I do is set torpedo depth, etc.

My method:
While in periscope view, on the panel where you adjust torpedo depth, etc, there is the other screen that shows you the distance and ID of target. There will be two dials on this screen. The top screen is the enemy ship (angle on bow, and a red line), the bottom is your boat. You will see two red lines on the dial for your boat. The outside line is the direction of your periscope, the second (inside line) is the track of your torpedos. Once the periscope line hits about 30-35 deg, I unlock the target and rotated the periscope so the torpedo track line is at about zero. Once I do that, I use the Dick O'kane method and just select a tube and press fire when each section of the ship I want to hit passes the crosshairs.

The TDC will automatically correct for range, speed, aob, if you are close enough that the green/yellow/red triangle appears when the ship hits your crosshair.

I'm afraid that I don't have any pics on this.

*Edit: I just realized you are talking about the U-boats. My method works for fleet boats. Will pull out U-178 and advise you of any differences.*

[Majestik 909]

Nice!

[les green01]

i know on the US side on auto just point the scope to the spot you want to hit keep it there until the torpedo leaves the tube so you can target other part of the target not sure about the u-boats side

[slipf18]

Edit: Also, when asking for help with attacking targets, you kinda need to tell us if you're using the manual or automatic TDC difficulty setting. It makes a difference ;).

Ok... I just started playing this game. Took a while to figure out how things work and now doing reasonably well...except...

Sometimes I get in what I consider a great position with a target on my bow less than 1000 yards at a bearing say +-20 degrees off zero. I use Autotargeting, open the tube door, get a "Good Lock", fire, cycle to the next tube, open the tube door, get a "good lock" again, and fire the second tube.

Target stays on same course and...both miss. MK14's

I wrote another post in a different area about this specific problem with a tanker. On that one she was much closer and I wasted 2 bow torps and 2 stern torps. How could I fire at a ship at zero bearing that is under 300 yards away when neither of us are moving and miss? Or in the case of the stern shot she was at 180.

Is the auto targeting choosing an incorrect depth? How close is too close? How many yards before they arm? Any other guidance?

[fireftr18]

The torpedoes don't arm until about 400 yards. I give at least 500 yards to make sure.

[Char]

Auto Targeting automatically plots the torpedo's path to the target. It does not change depth setting, Detonation method, or speed setting. You can do that yourself. You're Running into two problems. First was already covered, in which you're too close.

The Second is the Mark 14 Torpedo itself. Which, to put it nicely, is a very bad Torpedo. If you're running Dud Torpedoes on, It could be running deep, making contact and simply not detonating, exploding before reaching the target, or for your added enjoyment, making a Circle Run and slamming into you. Possibly killing you in the process.

[slipf18]

Ok thanks that helps a lot. I think I have been too close too often.

Although...Auto targeting does set the depth...If I flip that little switch and look, it will be a different depth setting for different targets.

I have a Gato now with MK23's. They seem to be more reliable anyway.

How far away from a target on a steady course would you fire and not feel like you are just pissing away a torpedo?

[KaleunMarco]

slipf18,

you didnt state what version and mods you are playing with, so this will be generic help.

you may not be aware of a couple of unexpected features of your TDC. sometimes, when you playing with auto-targeting, the TDC will not lock onto the target with all attributes. by that i mean, you may lock bearing and speed and not depth. or speed and depth and not bearing. there have been other posts on this subject but there are thousands of posts and it takes a newbies a while to get used to it.

ok, enough background...how do you fix these? the bearing issue seems to happen most often on the first shot of the mission. you will perform your detection and approach beautifully, lock onto the target and then miss forever. you can detect this error by locking on to a target and then switch to the attack screen. that will show you the bearing that your torpedo shot will take to the target. if it is way-off, then you will need to either adjust your bearing on the TDC or adjust your approach and take your first shot with the stern tubes. after the first shot, the TDC snaps out of its funk and you are good to go for the remainder of the session. if you exit the app and then re-start and load a save, you may have the same disease until your first shot.

the depth-issue can be cured more easily but it occurs more often. for some reason, one can lock onto a target but the TDC will not automatically lock the proper depth for the target. you can see this by flipping the TDC option to view the bearing angle and depth setting. to fix the problem, i usually, lock onto the target, unlock, and then lock again, then take my shot.

as time goes by and you gain more experience with different torpedos and situations, you will learn to be more confident with shooting from greater distances than 1000 yds. As practice for this, try sneaking into a port with stationary ships and fire from 3000 or 4000 yds.

anyway, i hope this helps. write any time.

mark

remember: in the world, there are only submarines and targets.

[slipf18]

Thanks for the explanation. I will check the things you say to see if I can figure out what is going on.

I am using completely stock version with the Uboat missions. So I think that means v1.5. I wanted to figure the game out and know what I am doing before adding mods since they make it more difficult from what I read.

[KaleunMarco]

i agree with your objective.
you should download jones' mod handler. that will allow you to control the mods you decide to try out.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=4725

[Sniper297]

One thing all newbies should be aware of is the feature that automatically opens the outer doors is flawed. If you fire without opening the tubes before, the TDC gyro angle is set at the moment of firing, and the delay while opening the doors screws up the firing solution.

As you set the torpedoes (several minutes before firing, preferably) hit the Q key before changing to the next tube to make sure the outer door is open. Then when you do fire there's no delay and you'll get a lot more hits.

[slipf18]

Ahhh...I wondered if that made a difference.

[slipf18]

i agree with your objective.
you should download jones' mod handler. that will allow you to control the mods you decide to try out.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=4725

That won't work. Is it no longer available? I downloaded it but the install goes to a 404 Not Found page.

*****

Sorry I take it back. It did install it. Apparently it was looking for the manual online. Who needs a manual?