Turkey shoots down Russian aircraft.

[Commander Wallace]

Turkey today has downed a Russian aircraft that was allegedly violating it's airspace. Turkey has said it issued 10 warnings to the aircraft thought to be a supersonic Sukhoi SU-24 attack aircraft. Turkey has said those 10 warnings were in a 5 minute span. Turkey has issued warnings before to Russian aircraft violating it's airspace and Russian officials are denying the aircraft violated Turkish airspace.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/middleeast/warplane-crashes-near-syria-turkey-border/

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-idUSKBN0TD0IR20151124

Quote : Turkey's semi-official Anadolu news agency quoted Turkish presidential sources in reporting that the Russian Su-24 was "hit within the framework of engagement rules" in Syria's Bayirbucak area, near the border with Turkey."This is a situation that unfortunately was almost inevitable at some point, because Turkey has long been accusing Russia of interfering in their airspace," Gohel said. "They've threatened them in the past. And even though economic relations between the two countries are strong -- politically, there have been tensions recently


Turkey, a member nation of NATO, is expected to meet later Tuesday with other members to discuss the incident.

[Betonov]

The Russians do have some bad navigation when it comes to airspaces...

But when it comes to Turkey I would root for the Russians if they send airplanes trough Erdogans bedroom daily.

[August]

https://i.imgur.com/TeP8yaW.png

[Catfish]

Maybe throw Turkey out of the NATO. Erdoghan is supporting IS anyway, and tries to kill as many Kurdish people as possible, masking it as action against IS terrorists. We will also not forget how turkish ground forces sat at the border, looking at a kurdish village some hunderd meters away, being pillaged and razed by the IS, and doing nothing.

Also Erdoghan tries to establish his "presidential state", nothing else than a one-man dictatorship.
By all appeasement towards Erdoghan, he does nothing to stop the IS.
Now Erdoghan accusing just of all Russia to kill "innocent kurdish people" is the peak of infamy.

[Schroeder]

The Russians do have some bad navigation when it comes to airspaces...

But when it comes to Turkey I would root for the Russians if they send airplanes trough Erdogans bedroom daily.
Amen.

Maybe throw Turkey out of the NATO. Erdoghan is supporting IS anyway, and tries to kill as many Kurdish people as possible, masking it as action against IS terrorists. We will also not forget how turkish ground forces sat at the border, looking at a kurdish village some hunderd meters away, being pillaged and razed by the IS, and doing nothing.

Also Erdoghan tries to establish his "presidential state", nothing else than a one-man dictatorship.
By all appeasement towards Erdoghan, he does nothing to stop the IS.
Now Erdoghan accusing just of all Russia to kill "innocent kurdish people" is the peak of infamy.
What I can't understand is that Turkey is still a membership candidate for the EU.:/\\!!
And politicians wonder why people are fed up with them.:/\\!!

[ikalugin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-sP0xa5NvI
Statement by Putin (translated into eng).

http://savepic.su/6561814m.jpg (http://savepic.su/6561814.htm)
If this Turkish data is correct, then it implies that Turkey had only a very narrow window of opportunity to engage the aircraft within it's airspace (below 30 seconds or so). Thus it is propable that even if RuASF aircraft did violate Turkish airspace it was outside of the Turkish airspace when it was hit.

[Dmitry Markov]

Turks say that they've made 10 warnings in 5 minutes via radio but our bomber didn't react... Taking into account amount of Turkish airspace that was supposedly crossed by Su-24 which took it less than a minute - doesn't that mean that they were ready and waiting and what's more - Wanting for our plane to cross the border for a moment. This far situation looks like a bomber was hit over Syrian territory. From our point of view (I mean our official position that Su-24 didn't cross Turkish border) this mess can be described as an ambush which purpose was a vengeance for destroying IS's oil structures. Actually that is what everybody here are saying.
What looks even more weird is that Turkey announsed NATO council immediately after this shooting. Just like a boy throwing a stone into neighbour's car runs to his daddy crying - " He did it first!"
My thoughts go to our pilots - there are controversial messages about what's happened to them.

[Commander Wallace]

Turks say that they've made 10 warnings in 5 minutes via radio but our bomber didn't react... Taking into account amount of Turkish airspace that was supposedly crossed by Su-24 which took it less than a minute - doesn't that mean that they were ready and waiting and what's more - Wanting for our plane to cross the border for a moment. This far situation looks like a bomber was hit over Syrian territory. From our point of view (I mean our official position that Su-24 didn't cross Turkish border) this mess can be described as an ambush which purpose was a vengeance for destroying IS's oil structures. Actually that is what everybody here are saying.
What looks even more weird is that Turkey announsed NATO council immediately after this shooting. Just like a boy throwing a stone into neighbour's car runs to his daddy crying - " He did it first!"
My thoughts go to our pilots - there are controversial messages about what's happened to them.

The current unconfirmed reports are that one pilot was killed . If so, hopefully, the other crew member if not both are ok and receiving medical care if needed and will be returned in short order.

[Jimbuna]

I heard one report on UK where the Syrian rebels are claiming to have machine-gunned the pilots as they were descending to the ground in their parachutes.

What a mess....all the area needs right now :nope:

[moose1am]

I like coming in here to read what others have to say. We all get our news from different sources. I get my news from places like CNN or MSNBC news in the USA. But I find it very interesting reading what the other side has to say about this. I'm worried that misunderstanding might happen and this situation could escalate into some thing bigger.

I've never flown a Jet Fighter and have no idea how one can tell exactly where they are all all times and where certain boarders are or are not. So I don't know for a fact where the plane was when it was shot down.

I'd like to ask the guys from Russia in here about the following news that we have heard here in the USA. I've read in the last month or so after this mess in Syria began that Russian Planes had flown though Turkish Air Space in order to get to the Russian Airfields in Syria? Have you guys in Russia heard that too?

At least in this forum we can actually communicate with each other and not have to depend on what the news medias tell us. Not being there to see for myself I'm not sure who or what to believe anymore. I know that our media can be biased at times. I'm assuming that we are told what they want us to hear. Which is actually very little other than the propaganda we hear on our TVS and Radios. The internet can help change the way we get our news.

I'm sorry for the two Russian Pilots who were only doing what they were ordered to do by their commanders. We are always the pawns in these wars which are run by our upper classes.

[moose1am]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-sP0xa5NvI
Statement by Putin (translated into eng).

http://savepic.su/6561814m.jpg (http://savepic.su/6561814.htm)
If this Turkish data is correct, then it implies that Turkey had only a very narrow window of opportunity to engage the aircraft within it's airspace (below 30 seconds or so). Thus it is propable that even if RuASF aircraft did violate Turkish airspace it was outside of the Turkish airspace when it was hit.

Greetings ikalugin. We here in the USA this morning were told that the people fighting in this area where the Russian Jet was shot down were not ISIS fighters but the Anti ASAD fighters being supported by the USA and others in the West.

The problem with this conflict is that the USA supports the guys in Syria who want to topple President Assad in Syria and I'm told that Russia in there to support Assad and his people.

But that Russia and the USA and France and others in the West are all wanting to destroy the ISIS fighters.

I just hope that this conflict does not lead to more fighting. it's bad enough already.

We all need to take a few steps back and take a deep breath and hope that this situation in Syria and the entire Middle East calms down.

I've got to get ready to go to work now so I'll not be able to discuss this anymore right now. I don't get into this forum very often anymore. But I thought I would pop into this forum today and see what the other side of the world was saying about this situation in Syria. I pray that it deescalates soon.

[Rockstar]

Fark Turkey, I say ramp it up baby. Hope Russia sends them early christmas presents

http://25.media.tumblr.com/09442a8d12d3085c2a9704f2e5cf0182/tumblr_mj4w3fWIld1qfzndqo1_500.gif

[Betonov]

The anti-turk sentiment is getting dangerously close to uniting this forum on one issue.

Shame about the pilots :nope:
They weren't KIA, they were murdered.

[Eichhörnchen]

Brilliant thread title...:)

[ikalugin]

moose1am (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=210701)

Everyone in the region has their own little agenda in addition to fighting the more or less universally hated ISIS. In this particular case RuASF was conducting strikes against the anti-Assad and pro Turkey rebels, supported by Turkey with arms and if I remember it right instructors/advisors.

Recently there was a rumour that Turkey deployed ~5k special forces into that (Syrian) area to support rebel operations. At the same time Turkey has very strong anti Kurd interests (because Kurds want an independent state) and were allegedly supporting ISIS financially, view the oil trade.

[Oberon]

Turkey, you dumb son of a...

Unfortunately on a legal stand-point we can't really kick Turkey out of NATO for this, but we can hang them out to dry in this case and let Russia know in an unofficial matter that we do not support Turkeys actions.

Sadly, I don't think anyone is majorly surprised by this, it was just a matter of time, considering how close to the Turkish border some of these missions have run, but even so it was stupid of Turkey to undertake this action, but we all know that Turkey are rooting for Daesh so that Assad can be removed and Syria remain disorganised, allowing Turkey to be the dominant power in the region.

It's a pity that Russia can't react in any manner other than diplomatically, if I were in Putins shoes I'd be sorely tempted to have one of the cruise missiles that they've been lobbing at Syria accidentally cross the border into Turkey and accidentally land on a SAM site, but that would just escalate the matter and that's an action that neither Russia or NATO want to happen, and it wouldn't be in Russias best interests now that it's winning over the West and the moderate Arab states into supporting its campaign in Syria (and even joining in in some places). So there'll be a lot of diplomatic furor, but chances are the military response will be minimal, most likely a few HARM equipped Flankers might roam the border, daring a Turkish SAM site to fire on them so they can respond and destroy it in self defence. :hmmm:

[Dowly]

Does not look good for the pilots judging by the videos I've seen today. :nope:

[eddie]

You're right on that Dowly, reports say that a Rebel group in the area shot and killed one of the pilots as he was coming down in his chute. Not sure about the second pilot, but as a Russian helicopter was searching for the pilots, it came under fie too, was hit and forced down. It came down (unsure as to what happened to the crew) and the rebels destroyed the chopper with a TOW rocket.

Going to be interesting to watch the Russian response, Turkey is scared, they have already called for a special NATO meeting. Screw them, let them deal with Russia on their own.

[mapuc]

From every "expert" I have seen on different news program say it is not in Putin's interest to escalate this.

A sort of Diplomatically crisis is a fact because of this, but it will stay within words.

Of course some Danish tabloids paper, are writing stuff like

"Russia see this an unfriendly act, and Russia is now working on an appropriate reaction in response to this"

Markus

[Bilge_Rat]

the strip of land that the Russians supposedly flew over is only 2 km wide, so a SU24 would take at most 15-20 seconds to cross. If the Turks sent out warnings for 5 minutes, the SU24 would have been over Syria most of that time. :hmmm:

[Dmitry Markov]

the strip of land that the Russians supposedly flew over is only 2 km wide, so a SU24 would take at most 15-20 seconds to cross. If the Turks sent out warnings for 5 minutes, the SU24 would have been over Syria most of that time. :hmmm:

That's exactly what I was saying a bit earlier.
Our mass media emphasize that neither our President nor his administration say about possibility of a military response. Though some kind of diplomatical / economical measures would be taken of course.
Our Foreign Minister for example have canceled his visit to Turkey. And our tourist companies are stopping sales of tours to Turkey.

[nikimcbee]

http://cdn12.img22.ria.ru/images/132741/27/1327412788.png (http://ria.ru/infografika/20151124/1324891569.html)

[Betonov]

Slovene media reports that Turkey and Russia are close trading partners.
A Russian embargo on Turkish goods might do a lot more damage than a cruise missile.

Turkmen rebels on the other hand...

[Bilge_Rat]

Another map posted on the BBC which shows the Russian jet was hit while over Syria travelling away from Turkey.

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/141C7/production/_86857328_russian_plane_shot_down_624.png

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34913173

[nikimcbee]

I guess I'll listen to Russian radio today. VoR/РИА.

[ikalugin]

It's a pity that Russia can't react in any manner other than diplomatically, if I were in Putins shoes I'd be sorely tempted to have one of the cruise missiles that they've been lobbing at Syria accidentally cross the border into Turkey and accidentally land on a SAM site, but that would just escalate the matter and that's an action that neither Russia or NATO want to happen, and it wouldn't be in Russias best interests now that it's winning over the West and the moderate Arab states into supporting its campaign in Syria (and even joining in in some places).
We can do jamming and lock ons on anything that gets close to the border area.

[Oberon]

Was the Turkish aircraft that fired the AAM inside Syrian airspace? :hmmm: Assuming it was an AMRAAM, the range of the AIM-120 is around 30-90 miles, depending on the type, so the Turkish aircraft probably locked it up when it was in Turkish airspace, then fired when it departed.
Still bloody stupid to hit an aircraft for flying through two miles worth of airspace, but I guess the Turks did warn Russia the last time this happened.

In more sinister news, it turns out that the Russian helicopter that went to try and find any surviving crew from the downed Su-24 was shot down by the members of the Free Syrian Army using a TOW missile...most likely supplied to them by the West... :/\\!!

[Bilge_Rat]

Russia is claiming the F16 that shot down the Russian jet itself violated Syrian air space.

If you look at the radar track map supplied by Turkey, the F16 track does seem to very conveniently stop just when it reaches the border. :hmmm:


http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Radar-track-706x567.png

[ikalugin]

the strip of land that the Russians supposedly flew over is only 2 km wide, so a SU24 would take at most 15-20 seconds to cross. If the Turks sent out warnings for 5 minutes, the SU24 would have been over Syria most of that time. :hmmm:
Allegedly 17:
http://savepic.su/6557761m.jpg (http://savepic.su/6557761.htm)
(the authenticity was not verified by me)

[Oberon]

Russia is claiming the F16 that shot down the Russian jet itself violated Syrian air space.

If you look at the radar track map supplied by Turkey, the F16 track does seem to very conveniently stop just when it reaches the border. :hmmm:


http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Radar-track-706x567.png

Ha, so Turkey has converted their F16s to VTOL now, eh? :nope:

What a bloody mess. :/\\!!

[Bilge_Rat]

I saw a report in the Guardian that the missile used was a AIM9 sidewinder which would almost garantee that it was fired by the F16 while it was in Syria. However, I don't trust journalists when it comes to missile ID. I would also have thought a AIM120 made more sense.

[ikalugin]

https://youtu.be/KGlJFoIBKQw
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/chervonec_001/72877696/270112/270112_600.jpg

Russian MoD claims that:
- we did not violate Turkish airspace.
- Turks did violate Syrian airspace.
- Turks did not contact us.
- it was most likely a SRAAM.
- one of the SAR helicopters was downed by the small arms fire from the ground and abandoned. One naval infantryman died.

What we would do:
- we would escort all flights with ASFs.
- we would move Slava closer to Latakia.
- all targets, potentially threatening us would be destroyed.
- contacts with Turkish military would be cut.

[Bilge_Rat]

What we would do:
- we would escort all flights with ASFs.
- we would move Slava closer to Latakia.
- all targets, potentially threatening us would be destroyed.
- contacts with Turkish military would be cut.

This could get real ugly, real fast.

[ikalugin]

Russian tourism in Turkey is dead.
http://www.russiatourism.ru/news/9783/

[mapuc]

Is it in Putin's interest to escalate this ?

Markus

[Oberon]

This could get real ugly, real fast.

Yeah, the Moskva has been with a couple of Krivaks and a Kashin off the coast for a while, bringing that closer to shore will bring the S-300K SAMs (SA-10) into range of Turkish airspace. There's not much in the way to cruise missiles on any of the three classes of warship, mainly Anti-ship missiles and anti-submarine weaponry, so it would be down to the guns unless the P-500 (SS-N-12 Sandbox) can be modified to hit ground targets.

I wouldn't be surprised if a Turkish F16 meets a Russian SAM at some point in the future, especially if they keep popping over the border to bomb the Kurds. :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Is it in Putin's interest to escalate this ?

Markus

Not really no, but equally he can't just do nothing.

[ikalugin]

Is it in Putin's interest to escalate this ?
Markus
After we have fired all those cruise missiles and flexed our muscles in public we get our aircraft shot down in public.

If we do not repond that would be a massive loss of face. General Russian opinion appears to be somewhat between turning Turkey into a large piece of rather hot and irradiated classware and just declaring war on them and doing it the conventional way. (hyperbola intended)
Current actions by Russian leaderships are viewed as slow and indecisive and probably insufficient.

[mapuc]

Not really no, but equally he can't just do nothing.

I was thinking more in a military term.

I guess, as mentioned by others here in this thread some economical boycut will be Putin's answer to this.

Markus

[XabbaRus]

Hi guys. Here's one to ponder.

I've been watching the video of the shootdown. Now riddle me this. This isn't your usual shot on a camera phone or even a rebel with a Handaycam.

The quality is too good for that, especially the close up of the plane on fire.
Is it conincidence that an obviously competent camera crew happened to be in the right place at the right time and looking in the right direction.

Given the timings, the amount of time the plane would have been in Turkish airspace one wonders if the Turks were just waiting for the opportunity to get back at the Russians.

Also I wouldn't hold out much hope for the second crew member if he is alive. I've read reports they are both dead. Shooting at them under their chutes, just shows how barbaric they all are.

[Oberon]

I was thinking more in a military term.

I guess, as mentioned by others here in this thread some economical boycut will be Putin's answer to this.

Markus

I think that for the Russian people there has to be a military response, as ikalugin put it, the Russians are rather upset by this, especially since the pilots were killed by Turkish allies, the Syrian Turkmens.
The best bet really for Putin would be to bypass Turkey and talk to Europe and the US direct in dealing with Daesh, but the big snag is that Russia is not just hitting Daesh but basically hitting anyone who isn't Assad loyalists, and that's really the sticking point between Russia and the West at the moment.

So yeah, I think that there will be a response and it will most likely take the form of a Turksih F16 going down in flames the next time it tries to cross the Syrian border. Turkey won't be able to pull Article 5 on it because it took place in Syria, and so Russia will get its revenge and not start a war between Russia and NATO.

[Bilge_Rat]

The only way I see a peaceful resolution is if Turkey apologises profusely and changes its ROE so it is not so trigger happy in the future. Does not seem to be going that way though so Putin really has no choice but to respond. The next 24-48 hours will be crucial.

I am sure the WH is working the phone to defuse this and would not be surprised if Kerry or Biden made an unscheduled trip to Ankara very soon.

[ikalugin]

It was really bad public opinion wise here, we had a hysteria of sorts due to the perceived leadership inaction.

Note that 24th is also the day Suvorov, known for his victories over the Turks was born. Coincidence? I don't think so!

[mapuc]

Heard of this "accident" on the 5 o´clock news my first thought wasn't Oh God now we will not be celebrating Christmas. No it was-wonder what all these "expert" will write on different FB-pages

Somehow people have already taken a standpoint.

I don't know what's up and down in this story, I which both part of this would let an independent group investigate this.

If the plane was inside Turkeys airspace or not a.s.o

Markus

[XabbaRus]

Well my wife is really peed off....She thinks Russia is going to smack down a Turkish plane when they get half the chance.

I wonder how this will affect my upcoming trip to Moscow at the new year.

[Admiral Halsey]

Has Russia given up on its ambitions for control of the Dardanelles?

[Onkel Neal]

Well my wife is really peed off....She thinks Russia is going to smack down a Turkish plane when they get half the chance.

I wonder how this will affect my upcoming trip to Moscow at the new year.

Well, if that happens, I doubt it will end there.

[mapuc]

So yeah, I think that there will be a response and it will most likely take the form of a Turksih F16 going down in flames the next time it tries to cross the Syrian border. Turkey won't be able to pull Article 5 on it because it took place in Syria, and so Russia will get its revenge and not start a war between Russia and NATO.

Heard an expert saying something like what you wrote. I heard it about 30 minutes ago on a Danish News channel

Does Turkey know this and will they(turkish AF) stay put the next couple of month to prevent this and will the Kurds take advantage of this new situation ?

Markus

[Schroeder]

Unfortunately on a legal stand-point we can't really kick Turkey out of NATO for this, but we can hang them out to dry in this case and let Russia know in an unofficial matter that we do not support Turkeys actions.
Knowing the brain dead windbags in Brussels and Nato they will do the exact opposite and support Turkey just to pee off Putin because.....well....we always did that...can't change old games now, can we?:/\\!!:dead:

[Oberon]

Knowing the brain dead windbags in Brussels and Nato they will do the exact opposite and support Turkey just to pee off Putin because.....well....we always did that...can't change old games now, can we?:/\\!!:dead:

Like it or not Turkey is strategically relevant to NATO and NATO interests, heck we station nukes there once upon a time to annoy Krushchev at his dacha. So, there we are and technically Turkey hasn't done anything that it wasn't already promising it would do after the last couple of Russian airspace intrusions. In the big picture it's stupid because rather than squabbling with each other we should be looking to put down Daesh, but every player in this game has their own agenda so getting some sort of unity was always going to be a difficult task. That brief spark of global unity seen after Paris, I think it will be difficult to rekindle that.

But yes, I think Xabbas wife is right, the next time a Turkish fighter crosses into Syria it will be fired upon, even if it just crosses over the border for a second, and neither side has a government that is capable of compromise, the Russians want blood and the Turks are too proud to back down, in their eyes the Russians shouldn't even be there.

Putin isn't stupid though, he won't directly attack Turkish soil, not yet anyway, that might come later after more escalation and even then it would probably be done through direct aid to the PKK and 'little green men' who would start agitating on the Turkish border. To be honest, Moscow is probably already drawing up a plan to put to Assad to help the Kurds deal with the Turkmen forces on the border and agitate into Turkey itself, Assad will probably agree to having a small part of Syria become some sort of semi-independent entity in order to have continued Russian support, and Turkey will be absolutely furious.

[AngusJS]

The Turks repeatedly complained to Russia about it violating Turkey's airspace, as recently as last Friday. It looks like Russia went one too many times to the well, and paid the price.

[ikalugin]

But yes, I think Xabbas wife is right, the next time a Turkish fighter crosses into Syria it will be fired upon, even if it just crosses over the border for a second, and neither side has a government that is capable of compromise, the Russians want blood and the Turks are too proud to back down, in their eyes the Russians shouldn't even be there.
That is what the MoD said more or less - any threats would be destroyed.

[Dmitry Markov]

So the butcher's bill at this moment:

Crew commander of Su-24 killed by those er-r-r "persons" while descending with the parachute.

A Marine shot during rescue operation in one of our helos.

Our and Syrian special forces have rescued navigation officer of Su-24 during 12-hours long operation - he is now alive, safe and more or less unharmed. Thats what our MoD said recently.

[eddie]

I have read the same thing Dmitry, glad they found the second pilot and that he is safe! But your Government has decided to send the S-400 missile system to the airbase there. Turkish jets should stay out of Syrian airspace now,lol


"Russia's defense minister says that Moscow will send its newest anti-aircraft missiles to Syria following Turkey's downing of a Russian warplane on Tuesday.
Russian news agencies on Wednesday quoted Sergei Shoigu as saying that the S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems would be sent to the Hemeimeem air base in the government-controlled area which Moscow uses for its Air Force sorties."

[Dan D]

I heard on the radio that Turkey sees itsself as the protecting power for the Turkmen minority living in Syria.

There have been attacks lately by Assad troops with Russian air support against the Turkmen, who oppose the Assad regime.

A Turkmen leader was quoted saying they could fight Assad's troops successfully like they did in the past but that they can do nothing against the Russian air strikes.

So it seems that Turkey shot down the aircraft to show Russia that it does not tolerate actions against Turkmen in Syria.

Btw, no one seems to care about the Kurdish people in this conflict who live as minorities in Turkey, Syria, Iran and Irak. They are stuck between hammer and amboss.

[Betonov]

I wonder if ikalugin or Dmitri can confirm this, but the rumor us that the Russians set up an always open direct line between Ankara and Russian command (Syria or Moscow, wasn't mentioned), just becasue they knew jets might stray into Turkey. The Turks had a diplomatic way to let the Russian know about airspace breach within minutes.

It's scuttlebutt for now,

[Commander Wallace]

As expected, there have been a number of intelligent , knowledgeable and insightful posts. An overwhelming majority feel that Turkey was wrong in shooting down the Russian aircraft. Without knowing any of the facts, who can say.

With modern avionics, it's doubtful these incursions were the result of pilot or navigational error . Furthermore, operations that close to another country would demand careful planning to avoid entering the airspace of another country.

I did want to point out a few things. Since Sept of this year, Turkey has complained about incursions into it's airspace by Russia and warned them repeatedly. Russia has established a well documented precedence for ignoring The airspace and sovereignty of other countries including Canada, England, Finland, Japan and the U.S.

Russian bombers increase flights near U.S airspace.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/08/07/russia-bombers-arctic/13746681/
Michael Winter, USA TODAY 9:11 p.m. EDT August 7, 2014.


This foray took place around Alaska. U.S fighters frequently escort Russian aircraft out of their airspace



http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1335735
Canadian airspace intrusions. This incursion in Canada was by a Russian Tupolev-160 bomber, the largest supersonic bomber in the world.




Russian Nuclear-Capable Bombers Intercepted near West Coast in Second U.S. Air Defense Zone Intrusion in Two Weeks


http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/russian-nuclear-capable-bombers-intercepted-near-west-coast-in-second-u-s-air-defense-zone-intrusion-in-two-weeks/17353







(http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/russian-nuclear-capable-bombers-intercepted-near-west-coast-in-second-u-s-air-defense-zone-intrusion-in-two-weeks/17353)
Pictured: The moment RAF jets intercepted Russian bombers flying in British airspace

By Sam Greenhill for the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=&authornamef=Sam+Greenhill+for+the+Daily+Mail)
Updated: 06:56 EST, 25 March 2010

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1260381/RAF-jets-intercept-Russian-bombers-flying-British-airspace.html#ixzz3sSdlmxDH (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1260381/RAF-jets-intercept-Russian-bombers-flying-British-airspace.html#ixzz3sSdlmxDH)


In this instance, there was a 4 hour standoff with Russian bombers and U.K RAF.


Russian Nuclear-Capable Bombers Intercepted near West Coast in Second U.S. Air Defense Zone Intrusion in Two Weeks

Posted on July 8, 2012 (http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/russian-nuclear-capable-bombers-intercepted-near-west-coast-in-second-u-s-air-defense-zone-intrusion-in-two-weeks/17353) by Admin (http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/author/administrator)

http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/russian-nuclear-capable-bombers-intercepted-near-west-coast-in-second-u-s-air-defense-zone-intrusion-in-two-weeks/17353


'Unusual' Russian flights concern NATO

By Jamie Crawford, CNN National Security Producer
Updated 12:53 AM ET, Thu October 30, 2014



http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/29/world/russian-aircraft-european-airspace/index.html





Is it a coincidence that these incursions were commited against NATO countries ?



These incursions are not just limited to limited to airspace. Consider the fact that the U.K has been actively hunting a Russian sub in Scotland



http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/raf-plane-in-hunt-for-russian-submarine-off-scotland-1-3956078


under the circumstances, it would be disingenuous to say that Russia isn't at the very least equally responsible for the events of the last few days.


Lets not forget that Russia has also attacked aircraft that were of civilian registry, not military. This was of course Korean airlines flight 007 destroyed in 1983 in which 269 innocent people were killed on that passenger liner.



http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/korean-airlines-flight-shot-down-by-soviet-union .


Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 Shot Down Over Donetsk, Ukraine

The passenger airliner was allegedly shot down by an anti-air missile.

http://thediplomat.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/thediplomat_2015-07-08_20-11-54-36x36.png
By Ankit Panda (http://thediplomat.com/authors/ankit-panda/)
July 18, 2014

http://thediplomat.com/2014/07/malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down-over-donetsk-ukraine/

MH17 was flying within an established flight corridor as well when it attacked. Again,This was a civilian aircraft, not a military aircraft as was the Russian aircraft lost yesterday.

Quote : Pro-Russia rebels in Donetsk have claimed responsibility for having shot down a military transport plane in the past as well. Igor Strelkov, a leader of the Donetsk separatists, allegedly ordered the attack (https://twitter.com/strobetalbott/status/489809871475593216), thinking the flight was Ukrainian.

I think it's fair to say that other countries in addition to Russia violate each others airspace however I know of no instance where other countries have attacked passenger liners violating it's airspace except Russia. I think it's ridiculous that Russia under the circumstances is downplaying their intrusions into Turkish airspace since they themselves do it with such frequency and are now crying wolf. Russia may have lost 1 pilot yesterday but how many innocent people were lost on the 2 civilian aircraft it has destroyed ? This is not meant to be anti-Russian but I think it's important to keep all of this in perspective when viewing current events.

[August]

I think it's ridiculous that Russia under the circumstances is downplaying their intrusions into Turkish airspace since they themselves do it with such frequency and are now crying wolf.

My sentiments as well.

[Bilge_Rat]

interview with the surviving crew member:


Captain Konstantin Murakhtin, speaking on Russian television after his rescue, said his plane had not crossed into Turkish airspace and denied that there had been any audio or visual warnings from Turkey (http://www.theguardian.com/world/turkey). Murakhtin added that he knew the area “like the back of my hand”. He is currently receiving medical treatment but said he wanted to stay in Syria and continue flying missions.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/25/second-russian-pilot-shot-down-turkey-alive-ambassador

[ikalugin]

I wonder if ikalugin or Dmitri can confirm this, but the rumor us that the Russians set up an always open direct line between Ankara and Russian command (Syria or Moscow, wasn't mentioned), just becasue they knew jets might stray into Turkey. The Turks had a diplomatic way to let the Russian know about airspace breach within minutes.

It's scuttlebutt for now,
Russian MoD claimed that there was a direct line between Turkish Military and our new command center.

[Mr Quatro]

I heard on the radio that Turkey sees itsself as the protecting power for the Turkmen minority living in Syria.

There have been attacks lately by Assad troops with Russian air support against the Turkmen, who oppose the Assad regime.

A Turkmen leader was quoted saying they could fight Assad's troops successfully like they did in the past but that they can do nothing against the Russian air strikes.

So it seems that Turkey shot down the aircraft to show Russia that it does not tolerate actions against Turkmen in Syria.

Btw, no one seems to care about the Kurdish people in this conflict who live as minorities in Turkey, Syria, Iran and Irak. They are stuck between hammer and amboss.


Well thought post Dan D ... you would make a good news reporter on CNN :up:

[Aktungbby]

I heard on the radio that Turkey sees itsself as the protecting power for the Turkmen minority living in Syria.

There have been attacks lately by Assad troops with Russian air support against the Turkmen, who oppose the Assad regime.

A Turkmen leader was quoted saying they could fight Assad's troops successfully like they did in the past but that they can do nothing against the Russian air strikes.

So it seems that Turkey shot down the aircraft to show Russia that it does not tolerate actions against Turkmen in Syria.

Btw, no one seems to care about the Kurdish people in this conflict who live as minorities in Turkey, Syria, Iran and Irak. They are stuck between hammer and amboss.

Well thought post Dan D ... you would make a good news reporter on CNN :up:
An Islamic 'Balkanization'; as the Ottoman collapse precipitated the 'great enema' of WWI, the post-colonial Levantine/Middle East Balkanization is ON. WWIII is well started, only we just don't realize it yet. :shifty:

[CaptainRamius]

Turkey has a huge problem on it's hands. Apparently, the Russian fighter was in Turkish Airspace for 17 seconds. And they shot it down, one pilot survived and one was killed by rebels. This is war.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

@Commander Wallace, I unfortunately don't have time to read all those articles you linked. Headlines in those links talk about "U.S. Air Defence Zone", is this same as nation's "airspace" or is it broader military term? Follow on question especially if answer is not "airspace" then how many times Russian aircraft have actually intruded into U.S. airspace?

Russian aircraft flying into Finnish airspace is relatively common occurence but usually (or atleast used to) happen over Gulf of Finland. Those are normally aircraft heading to/from Kaliningrad using corridor of international airspace between Finland and Estonia. Some of those intrusions maybe intentional some may not.

Russian however are not only ones making "navigation errors" or "mistakes" in route selection. Those reported in media have usually been about disrespect of demilitarized status of Aland Islands. Latest such incident (in my knowledge) was last year and culprit were U.S. Air Force C-17s.

[CaptainRamius]

An Islamic 'Balkanization'; as the Ottoman collapse precipitated the 'great enema' of WWI, the post-colonial Levantine/Middle East Balkanization is ON. WWIII is well started, only we just don't realize it yet. :shifty:


Yay. We could REALLY use a Third World War now, right? :shifty:

[Commander Wallace]

@Commander Wallace, I unfortunately don't have time to read all those articles you linked. Headlines in those links talk about "U.S. Air Defence Zone", is this same as nation's "airspace" or is it broader military term? Follow on question especially if answer is not "airspace" then how many times Russian aircraft have actually intruded into U.S. airspace?

Russian aircraft flying into Finnish airspace is relatively common occurence but usually (or atleast used to) happen over Gulf of Finland. Those are normally aircraft heading to/from Kaliningrad using corridor of international airspace between Finland and Estonia. Some of those intrusions maybe intentional some may not.

Russian however are not only ones making "navigation errors" or "mistakes" in route selection. Those reported in media have usually been about disrespect of demilitarized status of Aland Islands. Latest such incident (in my knowledge) was last year and culprit were U.S. Air Force C-17s.

As I pointed out, a lot of nations do it , including the U.S . You didn't however mention the intrusions in U.K ,U.S and Canadian airspace . Russia violates Alaskan airspace on a regular basis. I'm sure the U.S probably returns the favor. I also indicated intrusions are not limited to airspace but territorial waters . Again, i think most nations with advanced submarines engage in the same intrusions.

I think the point was how Russia and other countries handle intrusions into their respective airspace. Other countries observe restraint and Russia probably does as well , just to a lesser extent.

[mapuc]

Your thoughts about what I have heard and read

In fact Turkey and Russia is at war with each other-they became two combatant the day Russia started to bomb terrorist groups and others fighting Assad-said by some expert on Danish news program

A Danish News paper have quoted some journalist on CNN

Saying: Are we in WWIII now ?

Minister of Defense in USA, say they heard these warnings to the pilots-The Russian pilot say they didn't get any warnings-Who's telling the truth ?

Markus

[Bilge_Rat]

Minister of Defense in USA, say they heard these warnings to the pilots-The Russian pilot say they didn't get any warnings-Who's telling the truth ?

Markus

They both could be. Air communications in aircraft are carried on multiple frequency as in any radio. If the Turks were broadcasting on one frequency, but the Russians were on another, they would not have heard the warnings.

You had the same issue when the U.S.S. Vincennes shot down Iran Air flight 355:

According to the same reports, Vincennes tried unsuccessfully to contact the approaching aircraft, seven times on the military emergency frequency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_emergency_frequency) and three times on the civilian emergency frequency, but never on air traffic control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_control) frequencies. This civilian aircraft was not equipped to pick up military frequencies and the messages on the civilian emergency channel could have been directed at any aircraft. More confusion arose as the hailed speed was the ground speed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_speed), while the pilot's instruments displayed airspeed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspeed), which was 50-knot (93 km/h) different

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

[Oberon]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUrX1EkVAAEWXdm.jpg:large

Turkish tanks continuing to be sent to the Syrian border.

Meanwhile a still from a video taken from inside an Su-24 shows the sort of GPS unit that is used on board:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUm-Fi1WUAA8aHs.png:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUm458NWIAAhl6U.jpg:large

Yeah, the sort of thing you can buy on ebay... :oops:

[mapuc]

They both could be. Air communications in aircraft are carried on multiple frequency as in any radio. If the Turks were broadcasting on one frequency, but the Russians were on another, they would not have heard the warnings.

You had the same issue when the U.S.S. Vincennes shot down Iran Air flight 355:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Thank you for your answer

I thought they had their radio on a international channel as they have on the seas(Channel 16 if I remember correctly) Or Turkey tried to warn them on several diffeent radio channels.

I also thought the Turkish Airs force knew the frequencies the Russians use in their AF

Markus

[eddie]

I don't come down on the side of Turkey in this incident at all. First of all, I think President Erdogbone, is an arse!! Is this incident his way of getting even for the Turkish F4 that violated Syrian airspace and ended up getting shot down earlier this year!

Erdogbone talks about Turkish Airspace being violated, what about earlier this year when his air force violated Iraqi Airspace when they bombed the Kurds in northern Iraq? I guess its ok for that prick to do whatever he wants, but the rest of the world has to play by the rules!?! Screw him, I hope the Russians put an S-300 right up his arse!!

[BossMark]

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee374/rothwellwhite1/bossmarks%20pictures/turkey_zpsassr9dxl.jpg

[Catfish]

^ :haha:

Read this in another forum:

"Well the situation there is so complicated that Italy still is unsure on which Ally to betray."

:rotfl2:

[Bilge_Rat]

Thank you for your answer

I thought they had their radio on a international channel as they have on the seas(Channel 16 if I remember correctly) Or Turkey tried to warn them on several diffeent radio channels.

I also thought the Turkish Airs force knew the frequencies the Russians use in their AF

Markus

I dont know the particular and am just making an educated guess. The Turks said they used the "Guard" channel which is the standard military emergency channel which every aircraft is supposed to monitor.

Of course, I have no idea what is the SOP on a Russian SU-24 or if they were monitoring it. Since they were involved in ground strikes at the time, they were most likely only communicating with the other AC in the flight and their own ATC, I would think.

Another issue is that the warning, at least the one I heard was in english. Again, I do not know but presume the Russian air crews do not all speak english.

[Oberon]

Either that or they had their orders that taking a short-cut through Turkish airspace was acceptable and they didn't want to disobey orders. It's possible that Russia didn't think Turkey would call their bluff on it.
In other words, both sides played chicken and neither side blinked.

[Betonov]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUrX1EkVAAEWXdm.jpg:large

Turkish tanks continuing to be sent to the Syrian border.




€20 says those tanks will soon fly a black flag with white inscription.

[Commander Wallace]

I wanted to take a moment and acknowledge a mistake I made earlier with regards to post # 57.

In fact the U.S also shot down an airliner of Iranian registry. Iran Air Flight 655 was shot down on July 3, 1988 by the Aegis-class cruiser, Vincennes. It was an Airbus A300

Quote :Iran Air continues to use flight number 655 on the Tehran to Dubai route as a memorial to the victims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

My apologies for making this mistake.

[eddie]

I wonder Oberon, if those pictures of the tanks have anything to do with this buffer zone Turkey wants to set up in northern Syria? Another interesting thing on this article by the BBC is, that it show video footage taken by Turkey during one of the air attacks it did in northern Iraq. Clearly showing they violated Iraq air space. And Turkey made the videos,lol

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33681215

[Bilge_Rat]

there is a fairly complete list of civilian airliners shot down here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents

if we all apoligised each time we make a mistake, that would take up entire threads. :D

[Commander Wallace]

there is a fairly complete list of civilian airliners shot down here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents

if we all apoligised each time we make a mistake, that would take up entire threads. :D

Lol. Thanks Bilge Rat. Sometimes it doesn't pay to get out of bed . :D

[Rockstar]

€20 says those tanks will soon fly a black flag with white inscription.

They look like old M60 (Patton) main battle tanks. With that in mind I wouldnt bet against you.

[mapuc]

I find it interesting to read what different expert say about this

Their "expertise" are very apocalyptic

WW III, soon end of the world a.s.o

Markus

[Rockstar]

depends on which religion they are an expert of.

[Stealhead]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUrX1EkVAAEWXdm.jpg:large

Turkish tanks continuing to be sent to the Syrian border.

Meanwhile a still from a video taken from inside an Su-24 shows the sort of GPS unit that is used on board:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUm-Fi1WUAA8aHs.png:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUm458NWIAAhl6U.jpg:large

Yeah, the sort of thing you can buy on ebay... :oops:


Yeah that's a bit crude I mean you are flying military aircraft in a contested area might want to have something better than ebay GPS. Secured by a rubber band what happens under high G maneuvers?

[nikimcbee]

Maybe they were using a Tom Tom?:/\\k:

[CptSimFreak]

.


Meanwhile a still from a video taken from inside an Su-24 shows the sort of GPS unit that is used on board:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUm-Fi1WUAA8aHs.png:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUm458NWIAAhl6U.jpg:large

Yeah, the sort of thing you can buy on ebay... :oops:
Supplemental equipment for increase situational awareness. Not for navigation. You can find T-38A (USAF aircraft) use same setup.

[ikalugin]

Any Gefest upgraded Su24Ms have sat-nav receivers and screens.

[Mittelwaechter]

The Russians destroyed a few hundered ISIS trucks delivering oil to Turkey. Several Turkish drivers were killed.
The Americans proclaim to have done similar attacks - after a 30 mins warning with airdropped leaflets for the present drivers
(some could be non-ISIS they say - hint hint!) - using some video footage showing the Russian attacks.

Why they didn't drop leaflets over the Afghan hospital to warn potential present non-Taliban is still unexplained.
Collateral damage seems to be no problem in killing suspects in Pakistan either.

The Turkish revenge was a downed Fencer, coming close to Turkish airspace.
Brilliant high tech footage - not that usual blurry smart phone material - of a burning jet in the sky was available immediately after the attack.
To me it seems, this was a setup trap for the Russians.

As a side note: the Turks claim a 5 miles zone into Syria to be their airspace. A Russian jet entering this zone would still be in Syrian airspace.

[Betonov]

They look like old M60 (Patton) main battle tanks. With that in mind I wouldnt bet against you.

Same thing that tipped me off. Turkish army is a modern one and Pattons would be an outdated hardware. Reserve or training. And in case of Erdogan, killing-a-pilot-while-parachuting-out-of-jet bonus for the militia.

Ugh, you could mount a dinamo to the grave of Ataturk and have free power for the solar system :nope:

[Betonov]

I wouldn't go that far.
Putin has as much interest of seeing Moscow burn as Hollande Paris, Cameron London or Obama DC.
It's a proxy war between superpowers being buggered up by morons (khm Erdogan) trying to be the next Suleiman the great.

[Betonov]

http://i.imgur.com/XsiHSVU.jpg

[Betonov]

I hnope the EU and NATO don't do a solidarity bailout for the Turks, giving them subsidies for the lost revenue from a Russian embargo/boycott. I am too poor to be financing terrorists.

[Oberon]

Same thing that tipped me off. Turkish army is a modern one and Pattons would be an outdated hardware. Reserve or training. And in case of Erdogan, killing-a-pilot-while-parachuting-out-of-jet bonus for the militia.

Ugh, you could mount a dinamo to the grave of Ataturk and have free power for the solar system :nope:

Actually the M60 is the most numerous tank in the Turkish arsenal, they have 397 Leopard Is and 354 Leopard IIs but 1,646 M60s so that might actually just be a routine deployment rather than a gift to the 'Little green men'. Most likely though, rather than a black flag, they'll probably first, if they do cross the border, fly this flag:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/e/ea/20140201000948!Syrian_Turkmen_Brigades_flag.png

[Raptor1]

Same thing that tipped me off. Turkish army is a modern one and Pattons would be an outdated hardware. Reserve or training. And in case of Erdogan, killing-a-pilot-while-parachuting-out-of-jet bonus for the militia.

Ugh, you could mount a dinamo to the grave of Ataturk and have free power for the solar system :nope:

While they do have some Leopard 2s nowadays, M60s still make up the majority of Turkey's front line MBTs. These seem to be M60A3s in particular. Not the most modernized version of the M60 that Turkey fields (which would be the M60T in small numbers), but they're still the most widespread 'modern' tank in their arsenal. Outdated hardware for the Turkish army would probably be more like their stockpile of M48 Pattons, some of which they still keep in service, as far as I know.

EDIT: Damn it! Need to complete posts faster...

[Betonov]

It seems I may have been wrong. :hmmm:

[CaptainRamius]

I think someone wants to start WW3!
What is going on in this world guys?we kill each other for resources and power, mankind is going to its end!:yeah:

We've mentioned that already :nope:

[Bilge_Rat]

some more stuff.

this is what Erdogan said in 2012 when a Turkish F-4 was shot down by the Syrians:


In 2012, Ankara accused Syria of shooting down a Turkish F-4 Phantom. That plane crash-landed in the Mediterranean after veering into Syrian airspace. In response, an outraged Erdogan lambasted the Syrian military for acting in haste.

"A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he told Parliament at the time.



http://sputniknews.com/military/20151125/1030698044/erdogan-airspace-violation-contradiction.html

even though Turkey now takes the position, it can shoot down any plane which enters its air space, it turns out the Turkish air force is deliberately violating Greek air space on a daily basis, including a flight of 6 planes yesterday:

Even though Turkey has outlined its tough stance and rules of engagement when it comes to intruding aircraft in its own skies, it has hugely increased its own violations of airspace claimed by Greece over the past three years. Data recorded by the Greek military (http://www.geetha.mil.gr/en/violations/violations-of-national-airspace-infringements-of-air-traffic-regulations-icao-en.html) has shown that Turkish aircraft violated its claimed airspace 2,244 times in 2014. By October of this year, Turkish aircraft had made 1,443 intrusions with the financially-weakened Greek military stuggling to respond.

http://www.forbes.com/sites#/sites/niallmccarthy/2015/11/26/turkish-jets-violated-greek-airspace-over-2000-times-last-year-infographic/

other pilots in the area heard the Turkish warnings:



A civilian pilot who was in the sky when the Turkish military issued a warning to, and ultimately shot down, a Russian fighter jet has provided Al Arabiya News with a recording that proves the Turkish authorities issued several warnings to the plane.

The pilot, who was flying a Middle East Airlines (MEA) flight from Beirut’s Rafic Hariri International Airport to a Gulf country at approximately 9:00 a.m. (local Lebanese time) yesterday also verified the authenticity of a similar recording which was uploaded on the information sharing website LiveLeak which many international media outlets have carried.

“I confirm the authenticity of their recording, I heard these exact same warnings over and over again and the part I recorded on my phone was actually towards the end when I felt the matter was getting serious,” the Lebanese aviator told Al Arabiya News on the condition of anonymity.

The version of the recording obtained by Al Arabiya News from this pilot clearly proves that Turkish authorities were issuing repeated warnings to the Russian aircraft that they “were approaching Turkish air space”.

“Unknown air traffic position onto Humeymim 020, redirect to 26 miles. This is Turkish Air Force speaking - en guard. You are approaching Turkish airspace. Change your heading south immediately.,” the Turkish officer was repeatedly saying.

There was however no response from the Russian side, which Al Arabiya’s source says has been the case for weeks.

The MEA pilot explained that from what he gathers, Tuesday's incident was not the first as he had heard similar warnings over his radio transmission for the past month.

“I heard similar warnings two or three times a week, on every flight I took for the past month.

“What was different this time is that the Turkish officer was shouting and seemed tense, while the warnings were much calmer in previous times… this is why I knew something was going to happen,” he added.

No-fly zone?



http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=28413&start=30

notice the part I bolded, it does sound like Turkey had made up their mind on how they would react beforehand.

Question is did Turkey do this on their own or did they check with certain NATO partners beforehand? :hmmm:

[Dmitry Markov]

On those "Turkmen" that killed our Crew Commander - there is an old Russian black humour nursery rhime : " Malenkiy malchik nashel pulemyout - bolshe v derevne nikto ne zhivyot..." ( A little boy has found a machine-gun - no one lives in a village since then...)
Our RuASF together with Navy and SAA's artillery have worked on this area last night after Special Forces evacuated Nav's Officer - it's now militia-free area. I've heard about that yesterday but now our MoD has officialy approved that.

[Commander Wallace]

On those "Turkmen" that killed our Crew Commander - ther is old Russian black humour nursery rhime : " Malenkiy malchik nashel pulemyout - bolshe v derevne nikto ne zhivyot..." ( A little boy has found a machine-gun - no one lives in a village since then...)
Our RuASF together with Navy and SAA's artillery have worked on this area last night after Special Forces evacuated Nav's Officer - it's now militia-free area. I've heard about that yesterday but now our MoD has officialy approved that.

Thankfully, you have the other Crew member of the SU-24 returned unharmed.

[Dmitry Markov]

Thankfully, you have the other Crew member of the SU-24 returned unharmed.

And now he asks the MoD to let him stay at Syria and perform flights because he "has to pay the debt for Commander".

[mapuc]

I'm convinced, in a few month from now the relation between Russia and Turkey will be back to almost normal again.

Markus

[Commander Wallace]

some more stuff.

this is what Erdogan said in 2012 when a Turkish F-4 was shot down by the Syrians:



http://sputniknews.com/military/20151125/1030698044/erdogan-airspace-violation-contradiction.html

even though Turkey now takes the position, it can shoot down any plane which enters its air space, it turns out the Turkish air force is deliberately violating Greek air space on a daily basis, including a flight of 6 planes yesterday:



http://www.forbes.com/sites#/sites/niallmccarthy/2015/11/26/turkish-jets-violated-greek-airspace-over-2000-times-last-year-infographic/

other pilots in the area heard the Turkish warnings:



http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=28413&start=30

notice the part I bolded, it does sound like Turkey had made up their mind on how they would react beforehand.

Question is did Turkey do this on their own or did they check with certain NATO partners beforehand? :hmmm:


All good questions.

[CaptainRamius]

All good questions.

And great links too. Very informative :up:

[Skybird]

Newtonian physics, and billiard.

http://www.dw.com/en/scientists-offer-new-perspective-on-russian-jet-downing/a-18883189?maca=en-gk_volltext_microsoft_world-13228-xml-atom

[mapuc]

Newtonian physics, and billiard.

http://www.dw.com/en/scientists-offer-new-perspective-on-russian-jet-downing/a-18883189?maca=en-gk_volltext_microsoft_world-13228-xml-atom

So what is the correct answer to this ?

Markus

[Oberon]

So what is the correct answer to this ?

Markus

A plane crashed in Syria shot down by a Turkish aircraft. This is something both sides agree about.

The rest, like all things in war, depends on who you listen to. A bit like MH17, really. :hmmm:

[ikalugin]

Well Putin and Erdogan may meet today.

[eddie]

Russia might align itself with the Kurds, as the only force in Syria that can take on Daesh! That would also entail supplying weapons and ammunition.
That should go over real well in Turkey,lol

http://www.russia-direct.org/analysis/kurds-could-bring-russia-and-us-together-syria

[ikalugin]

looks like turks are moving ATACMS into range and are ramping up the rhetoric

[Oberon]

Around 25% of the Turkish military is now on the border with Syria, some 1000 vehicles, including Leopard 2A4s.

http://defence-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/CU6A_RyWcAEfHAB.png
(yes, I know these aren't Leopard 2s)

[Skybird]

So what is the correct answer to this ?

Markus
"Both are lying."

My guts feeling tells me the Turks set up an ambush almost. If you look at the map, you see that the window of opporutnity where they cou,d have shot at a Russian plane over Turkish soil, is incredibly, almost hilariously small. And Erdoghan has a reputation - and by past acts of him by now also the experience - to stage forged events in the air and to provoke something that would not have happened without him wanting it to happen. Russian and Turkish interests over Syria are quite different. Russia is not the West'S ally. But Turkey is not the Wests ally either. Forget that NATO membership, that's just a too hot iron as if anyone would want to touch it - plenty of daydreaming still going on. Turkey betrays the West, that simple it is, and since a long time already, since Erdoghan came to power.

[Moonlight]

Turkey or Russia need to back off a bit with the rhetoric and also the blatant military showboating before it gets out of hand. Those tanks will look like a provocative act to Putin and he will counter those tanks with military hardware of his own.
Putin is not the kind of man to back down to anyone so its up to Erdogan to make the first move, If he doesn't the Russian bear will be having a slap up dinner and on the menu will be Turkey.

[Jimbuna]

If that happens you'll most likely have to add NATO to the menu as well which is probably too large a feast for any mere mortal considering a specific mutual mending of relationships over far more important differences of opinion.

[Bilge_Rat]

The facts are still, to a certain extent, murky.

There is also a controversy over the 5 minutes of radio warning.

The Turks broadcast warnings over the emergency "guard" channel. Several other ACs in the area heard it and a recording can be found on the net.

Problem is that for a technical reason, the radios on the Russian SU-24s are apparently unable to monitor this "Guard" channel.

In mid-october, a Russian military delegation went to Turkey and a special channel for such warning calls was agreed upon. This is apparently the same procedure agreed to between the U.S. and Russia.

Turkey is also claiming it made the warnings on this "special channel" and that recordings of it exist, but none have been released so far.

So the question still stands, did the Turks really warn the Russian planes? The Russians claim it was an ambush, but it just could as easily be a combination of incompetence and inflexible ROEs on the part of Turkey.

[Bilge_Rat]

Apparently, a Russian plane has also entered Israeli air space, but the situation was resolved peacefully.

This is what Israel's defence minister said:


Ya’alon told Israel Radio that after Russia announced its air campaign in Syria, the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu (http://binyamin%20netanyahu/), along with his military chief of staff and other officials, met with the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, and later opened a channel for coordination with Russia “to prevent misunderstandings”.

He said there has been one incident so far of a Russian plane entering Israeli airspace and it was “immediately corrected in the communications channel”. He didn’t say when it occurred.

Ya’alon said: “Russian planes don’t intend to attack us and therefore there is no need to automatically, even if there is some kind of mistake, shoot them down.”



http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/29/russian-plane-breached-israeli-airspace-returned-syria

That last part sounds like a shot directed at Turkey. :ping:

[ikalugin]

In case of Turkey there were two lines they could have use:
- direct line to the Center of C2 of National Defense (the fancy one with big screens and all the operator stations) from Turkish MoD (not sure which specific center).
- direct Russia-US line, per Russia-US agreement US handles all the Western Coalition stuff and deconflicts it with us.

[Oberon]

Putin "Turkey shot down Russian plane to protect Daesh oil supplies."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34970121


Yes, and a Ukrainian Frogfoot on re-entry shot down MH17.

[mapuc]

Putin "Turkey shot down Russian plane to protect Daesh oil supplies."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34970121


Yes, and a Ukrainian Frogfoot on re-entry shot down MH17.

And the same was said by Danish and Swedish commentators. Not referring to what Russia claim, but what they said by own words

Something about trucks with oil, Turkish drivers, bombed by Russians a.s.o

And this could be a reason as many, but why only shot down one plane if protecting Daesh oil supplies ? From what I understand these "convoy of oil" is bombed almost daily.

Markus

[Oberon]

Admittedly Putins claim is a bit more likely than Frogfoots from space, but after the debacle that was the response to the downing of MH17 I trust word from the Kremlin as much as I do from Ankara. As Skybird put it, they both lie.

Then again, they are politicians... :03:

[mapuc]

Admittedly Putins claim is a bit more likely than Frogfoots from space, but after the debacle that was the response to the downing of MH17 I trust word from the Kremlin as much as I do from Ankara. As Skybird put it, they both lie.

Then again, they are politicians... :03:

Agree If Mr Putin have these claims then he should provide the rest of the world with 100 % solid evidence and not some loose accusation.

Markus

[Bilge_Rat]

I wonder why he is making that claim though. He sort loses whatever goodwill he gained in the West from the downing of the jet by making such dubious correlations.

I wonder if that is aimed at his domestic audience, maybe our Russian friends could comment.

[Catfish]

^ Huh? What do you mean?

It is well known that Erdoghan supports Daesh, not officially of course. It is not Turkey per se, but his Erd. clan who does this very special business. And Erdoghan is trying to turn Turkey into a dictatorship, he suppresses the media and kills or imprisons anyone who dares to speak up against him. Make no mistake, Erdoghan is an egomanic dictator.

Erdoghan is against Assad, and he also is against the Kurds. Gassing Kurds back then together with Saddam, anyone remembers?
So Erdoghan of course suppports Daesh, they are no real threat against Turkey currently, since Erdoghan pays them for the oil delivered via those convoys; and what's more, Daesh kills Kurds.
So when Russia attacks some of those convoys with turkish drivers doing business for Erd., what do you think he will do?
Well, we just saw it.
I just wonder what "the West" does, down there. Obviously NOT attacking Daesh oil transports, at least we do not hear anything about that, not even propaganda (yet).
And if some lone crazy martyr not knowing the facts who lost his way explodes himself in Istanbul, it of course was a "kurdish" assassination (ask Erdgohan).


B.t.w. alot of turkish people are against Erdoghan, but any demonstration or critic is being suppressed. Turkey is on a very bad way, and no one should ever support this man. It makes me vomit to see Erdoghan being invited and flattered by european politicians. He is NOT the man who protects the West from Daesh.
We should first kick him out of Nato, take away any chance to join the EU, and then send him to Putin, personally, and alone.
And with another government and state of mind, we can then think of getting Turkey aboard. Later. :hmph:

[/rant]

[Bilge_Rat]

We should first kick him out of Nato,


Not sure about that, if the Turks are crazy enough to confront the Russians head on, they could prove useful allies if we ever do get into a "Hot" war.

:arrgh!:

[mapuc]

If I remember correctly Putin said they are not going to start a war because of this, but what if Turkey sees these things Russia has implemented to wards Turkey as an act of war or trying to make Turkey to fire the next shot.


Edit these implemented things Russia has made to wards Turkey must be some kind of economical warfare

Markus

[Oberon]

Nah, I doubt Erdogan would go that far for the next step, the next step is likely to be either Russia knocking down a Turkish jet that is stupid enough to wander into Syrian airspace, or the Turkmen forces suddenly becoming equipped with M48 tanks and Turkish SAMs and Anti-aircraft guns.

[August]

I just wonder what "the West" does, down there. Obviously NOT attacking Daesh oil transports, at least we do not hear anything about that, not even propaganda (yet).

Actually they have...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/17/world/middleeast/us-strikes-syria-oil.html?_r=0

[ikalugin]

The oil truck thing is actually fairly competetive now. Both Russia and Western Coalition bomb that stuff now.

[Schroeder]

The oil truck thing is actually fairly competetive now. Both Russia and Western Coalition bomb that stuff now.
It's about high time.:/\\!!
But DAESH has also other means of making money. German journalists discovered that they are selling slaves (mainly Yazidi women) to whoever wants them. The deals are often arranged in Turkey while the Turkish secret service looks the other way.:/\\!!:/\\!!

EU membership candidate my arm!!!
It makes me want to throw up when I see how our politicians still court these gangsters.:/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!

[Catfish]

The deals are often arranged in Turkey while the Turkish secret service looks the other way.

So they are now selling kurdish women of Yazidi belief, with turkish approval.
Who buys slaves? Maybe our good friends from Saudi Arabia? :shifty:

[Schroeder]

So they are now selling kurdish women of Yazidi belief, with turkish approval.
Who buys slaves? Maybe our good friends from Saudi Arabia? :shifty:
Often times their family members try to buy them back if they have the funds.
The rest....who knows. Daesh fighters can buy them as well.

On a different note NATO's own Mr. Stoltenberg has just announced that NATO will improve Turkey's air defenses against those highly dangerous Russian aircraft that would surely have nuked Mr. Erdoghan if they could just have reached a little deeper into Turkish airspace.:/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!

Am I surrounded by idiots or am I the idiot (or both...)?:/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!

[Jimbuna]

Am I surrounded by idiots or am I the idiot (or both...)?:/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!

Debatable...at best :hmmm:

[Schroeder]

Debatable...at best :hmmm:
To clarify I meant surrounded by idiot politicians...

[Bilge_Rat]

On a different note NATO's own Mr. Stoltenberg has just announced that NATO will improve Turkey's air defenses

Call me overly cynical, but I suspect that is just a sneaky way to get more US/EU aircraft onto Turkish bases to attack ISIS.

"Sure we will defend your Air Space and maybe while we're at it we will pounce on those ISIS Oil convoys trying to sneak across your border" :D

The US has been pressing Turkey to allow the coalition to use Turkish bases, but Turkey only gave the OK to use Incirlik Air Base a few months back.

Turkey is not the easiest ally to deal with, their Air Force still spends most of its time bombing the Kurds.

[Catfish]

... Russian aircraft that would surely have nuked Mr. Erdoghan if they could just have reached a little deeper into Turkish airspace.:/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!

Hmm, not a bad idea ... :hmmm:

[Commander Wallace]

One thing to consider. Turkey maintains control of the Dardanelle straits, the Sea of Marmara and the Bosporus These are essentially waterways in Turkey connecting the Aegean Sea and the Mediterranean to the Black Sea.
Control of these routes of passage was granted to Turkey under the 1936 Montreux Convention .
This convention has always been a source of tension between Russia and Turkey . Stalin himself chaffed at Turkish control of the straits . In negotiations of the non aggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union, Stalin indicated a desire to take control of the straits in exchange for the signing of the non aggression pact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_St raits

Russia sends supplies from it's Novorossiysk naval base in the Black Sea to Russian ports in Tartus and Latakia. Russian vessels have enjoyed passage through the straits but Russian flagged vessels are now said to " wait for hours " before being allowed passage .

Logistically speaking, If Russia can't resupply their forces, then what. I'm sure supplies could be airlifted in but still. The question is, how important are the straits to Russia with regards to resupply of their forces in Syria ? How much of their economy in the form of cargo ships pass through those straits ?

If Turkey believes or considers itself in imminent danger of attack, Turkey can legally close or restrict access to those waterways Under article 20 and 21 of the Montreux convention.

The following is taken from the pages of the convention signed in 1936 .




TRADUCTION - TRANSLATION CONVENTION REGARDING THE
REGIME OF THE STRAITS SIGNED AT MONTREUX, JULY 20 TH, 1936
French official text communicated by the Permanent Delegate of Turkey to the League of Nations.
The registration of this Convention took place December 11th, 1936.
HIS MAJESTY
Article 19.
In time of war, Turkey not being belligerent, warships shall enjoy complete freedom of transit and
navigation through the Straits under the same conditions as those laid down in Article 10 to 18.
Vessels of war belonging to belligerent Powers shall not however, pass through the Straits except in
cases arising out of the application of Article 25 of the present Convention, and in cases of assistance
rendered to a State victim of aggression in virtue of a treaty of mutual assistance binding-Turkey,
concluded within the framework of the Covenant of the League of Nations, and registered and
published in accordance with the provisions of Article 18 of the Covenant.
In the exceptional cases provided for in the preceding paragraph, the limitations laid down in Article 10
to 18 of the present Convention shall not be applicable.
Notwithstanding the prohibition of passage laid down in paragraph 2 above, vessels of war belonging
to belligerent Powers, whether they are Black Sea Powers or not, which have become separated from
their bases, may return thereto.
Vessels of war belonging to belligerent Powers shall not make any capture, exercise the right of visit
and search, or carry out any hostile act in the Straits.

Article 20.
In time of war, Turkey being belligerent, the provisions of Articles 10 to 18 shall not be applicable; the
passage of warships shall be left entirely to the discretion of the Turkish Government.
Article 21.
Should Turkey consider herself to be threatened with imminent danger of war she shall have the right
to apply the provisions of Article 20 of the present Convention.
Vessels which have passed through the Straits before Turkey has made use of the powers conferred
upon her by the preceding paragraph, and which thus find themselves separated from their bases,
may return thereto. It is, however, understood that Turkey may deny this right to vessels of war
belonging to the State whose attitude has given rise to the application of the present Article.
Should the Turkish Government make use of the powers conferred by the first paragraph of the
present Article, a notification to that effect shall be addressed to the High Contracting Parties and to
the Secretary-General of the League of Nations.
If the Council of the League of Nations decide by a majority of two-thirds that the measures thus taken
by Turkey are not justified, and if such should also be the opinion of the majority of the High
Contracting Parties signatories to the present Convention, the Turkish Government undertakes to
discontinue the measures in question as also any measures which may have been taken under Article
6 of the present Convention.

[Bilge_Rat]

Even if the straits are blocked, Russia could still resupply their forces from ports on the White sea via the atlantic and Gibraltar, more of a strecth, but eminently doable.

You have a similar problem when the Suez canal is blocked.

[mapuc]

My post is somehow psychological

Have been following some of my FB-friends as I was a psychiatrist

Those who doesn't fancy Muslim-believe everything that comes from Russia

Those who doesn't fancy Russia/Putin-refuse to believe stuff coming from that country.

None of them, have, what I know any knowledge about this.

Its so interesting.

Me myself ?

I'm not an expert and I do not hate Russia or Turkey I only hope that they will get together and have a talk about this.

Markus

[Commander Wallace]

My post is somehow psychological

Have been following some of my FB-friends as I was a psychiatrist

Those who doesn't fancy Muslim-believe everything that comes from Russia

Those who doesn't fancy Russia/Putin-refuse to believe stuff coming from that country.

None of them, have, what I know any knowledge about this.

Its so interesting.

Me myself ?




I'm not an expert and I do not hate Russia or Turkey I only hope that they will get together and have a talk about this.

Markus


I'm sure most have no animosity toward either country. As with most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle . I think both countries will work it out in due course.

[ikalugin]

The delays thing is relevant to the civilian traffic. Military traffic is not being delayed.

For the delays there are sometimes valid reasons, such as the overuse of the waterway.

[Commander Wallace]

The delays thing is relevant to the civilian traffic. Military traffic is not being delayed.

For the delays there are sometimes valid reasons, such as the overuse of the waterway.


Thanks Ikalugin . When I read of the delay, it wasn't specific regarding military or civilian and commercial traffic.

[ikalugin]

In his adress today Putin was bashing Erodgan like there was no tommorow. There was even a bit on the lines of:
- Allah must have decided to punish Turkish leaders by taking their sanity and reason away.

[Oberon]

In his adress today Putin was bashing Erodgan like there was no tommorow. There was even a bit on the lines of:
- Allah must have decided to punish Turkish leaders by taking their sanity and reason away.

Well, he's not wrong there. Turkey could probably be self-sustaining on power from the rotational force of Ataturk spinning in his grave. :nope:

[Schroeder]

I for one enjoy that someone is finally treating that dog the way he deserves instead of sucking up to him while he laughs at our naivety.:yep:

[Jimbuna]

I for one enjoy that someone is finally treating that dog the way he deserves instead of sucking up to him while he laughs at our naivety.:yep:

Turkeys main playing card for many a year has been the fact they were the only NATO member with a land border with Russia.

[eddie]

I see reports of Daesh putting up a video of a Russian being beheaded. Glad I didn't see the actual footage. This should get Putin good and fired up now.

[ikalugin]

Turkeys main playing card for many a year has been the fact they were the only NATO member with a land border with Russia.
You mean with USSR? And then there is Norway.

[mapuc]

I have read an article in a Swedish news paper, where Mr Putin in his speech to the Nation is once again is accusing Turkey supporting terrorism and implemented more sanctions to wards Turkey-According to this article Putin even said this will not go unpunished no one kill our citizens without any punish

Markus

[Jimbuna]

I see reports of Daesh putting up a video of a Russian being beheaded. Glad I didn't see the actual footage. This should get Putin good and fired up now.

I've seen the footage and it is as evil and disgusting as all those shown before :nope:

[nikimcbee]

I've seen the footage and it is as evil and disgusting as all those shown before :nope:
I'll pass thank you.:dead:

[Reece]

Gee I wonder why people are prejudice against Muslims.:doh::-?

[mapuc]

Gee I wonder why people are prejudice against Muslims.:doh::-?

I have absolutely nothing against Muslim-only these Radical Islamist who use terror against others, well that goes for any type of radical-whatever its religious or political.

Markus

[Reece]

Oh I agree, but these extremists still impact on the majority who blame Muslims as a whole.:hmmm:

[Reece]

Factual or fiction::roll:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMnl0nO-oCk

[Betonov]

If it weren't for Erdogan I'd be leaning towards fiction.
But it's Erdogan in play so I rather trust the Russkies than Turks.

[eddie]

Turkey accused Russia of a "provocation" on Sunday after a serviceman on the deck of a Russian naval ship allegedly held a rocket launcher on his shoulder while the vessel passed through Istanbul.

And the games go on!:D

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/turkey-angered-by-rocket-brandishing-on-russian-naval-ship-passing-istanbul/ar-AAg54Z0?ocid=U351DHP

[Oberon]

And apparently coalition aircraft have killed some soldiers of the Syrian army. That's not going to be well received by Assad and Putin...

[ikalugin]

Turkey accused Russia of a "provocation" on Sunday after a serviceman on the deck of a Russian naval ship allegedly held a rocket launcher on his shoulder while the vessel passed through Istanbul.

And the games go on!:D

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/turkey-angered-by-rocket-brandishing-on-russian-naval-ship-passing-istanbul/ar-AAg54Z0?ocid=U351DHP
It isn't like it is an offensive weapon. But it is one of the ways to show distrust and dislike for turks, for example we also no longer fly their colours when passing the straights.

[Mittelwaechter]

Some details on the topic's incident:

http://harpers.org/blog/2015/12/mountain-ambush/

[Jimbuna]

Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu told reporters, according to the Hurriyet news site. "If we perceive a threatening situation, we will give the necessary response."

I've a feeling that is precisely what Putin would like to happen.

[ikalugin]

I've a feeling that is precisely what Putin would like to happen.
Russia does not have close ties to Iraq (when compared to Syria). And Turkey could close the straights for everyone, if it feels threatened.

So if anything the open conflict between Iraq and Turkey goes against our interests, economic (oil exports and trade in general tends to go through there since pre WW1), geopolitical (supporting Assad would be harder) and military (our Navy is locked in the Black Sea) reasons.

[CaptainRamius]

If I may say, this is a rather old thread on a pretty old topic.

[Oberon]

If I may say, this is a rather old thread on a pretty old topic.

Should we start a new one? :O:

Besides, it's not that old, it's just over a fortnight, if that.

[Jimbuna]

The incident took place on Tuesday 24th November this year...not very long ago at all and the incident has created repercussions and actions which are still ongoing today.

[Betonov]

This thread is going to be actuall when I reach 30

[Aktungbby]

Some details on the topic's incident:

http://harpers.org/blog/2015/12/mountain-ambush/

The Russians, of course, say they were south of the finger by about a mile. God knows who’s right. I’m sure if we had access to the radar records we could tell very promptly who’s lying and who’s not, but nobody is going to give us access to the exact radar plot. WOW! Skullduggery...under the radar! Between the Turks and the Russians...What a shock!:03:

[Dan D]

:ping::ping::ping:
"Massive launch of the Kalibr sea-based missiles was effectuated by the Rostov-on-Don submarine" against ISIS on Monday from the Mediterranean Sea(!)

https://youtu.be/fwja7sogNs4

How did they get past Gibraltar, British Navy?:woot:
Macho Man Putin:rotfl2:

[Jimbuna]

Is the entrance to the Med supposed to be blocked :hmm2:

[Dan D]

That was just a more or less humorous reference to the movie "Das Boot", Jimbuna.

But is there any need really for Russia to launch missiles from a submarine in the Mediterranean Sea to attack targets in Syria ?

[Oberon]

But is there any need really for Russia to launch missiles from a submarine in the Mediterranean Sea to attack targets in Syria ?

Well, they could have launched it from the Black Sea over Turkey...but I think they might have upset a few people.
I think that this war has given the Russians a good opportunity to demonstrate some of their new weapons systems for the potential customers in the region. :yep:

[Dan D]

That could be.

[Mike Abberton]

I was under the impression that the Rostov-on-Don came out of the Black Sea Fleet, not the Northern or Baltic Fleets. In other words, through the Dardanelles/Bosphorus, not Gibraltar.

Mike

[Oberon]

That's true, B-237 is Black Sea Fleet, so he would have had to transit the Bosporus first. Probably did a while ago before the 24 was downed.

Besides, we've got enough on our hands trying to stop the Spanish from invading Gibraltar, let alone trying to find Russkies subs sneaking through! :haha:

[Dan D]

I was under the impression that the Rostov-on-Don came out of the Black Sea Fleet, not the Northern or Baltic Fleets. In other words, through the Dardanelles/Bosphorus, not Gibraltar.

Mike

Good point, Mike Abberton :salute:

Because of my German-centric mindset I did not even consider the other option to enter the Med. So Putin's submarine penetrated the Bosphorus to launch it's missile from the Med.

That makes even more sense as it shows that Russian Navy is present in the Med, too and it shows Turkey that Russian Navy crosses the Bosphorus if it wants to.

At least Russia told the US and Israel in advance that it would launch missiles from the Med according BBC
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35041656

[Aktungbby]

A little background there:
The Montreux (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux) Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits is a 1936 agreement that gives Turkey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey) control over the Bosporus Straits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosporus) and the Dardanelles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanelles) and regulates the transit of naval warships. The Convention gives Turkey full control over the Straits and guarantees the free passage of civilian vessels in peacetime. It restricts the passage of naval ships not belonging to Black Sea states. The terms of the convention have been the source of controversy over the years, most notably concerning the Soviet Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union)'s military access to the Mediterranean Sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea).
Signed on 20 July 1936 at the Montreux Palace in Switzerland, it permitted Turkey to remilitarise the Straits. It went into effect on 9 November 1936 and was registered in League of Nations Treaty Series on 11 December 1936. It is still in force today, with some amendments.
The proposed 21st century Kanal Istanbul (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanal_Istanbul) project may constitute a possible by-pass to the Montreux Convention and force greater Turkish autonomy with respect to the passage of military ships from the Black Sea to the Sea of Marmara. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_St raits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_St raits) Throwing in the the geopolitical issues of the Trojan War (1250 BC) The Peloponnesian War(450 BC) and Gallipoli over this waterway and 'nuthin goes outta style' in 3000 years; Putin took the impoverished Crimea back to get a rent-free port at Sebastopol and I suspect his involvement in Syria is a WWII channel-ports style ploy to expand his naval front-door to the Mediterranean with bases on the Levantine coast west of the easily closed strait. This would greatly circumvent NATO bottling up the southern 'prong' of the Russian Navy as Putin continues his dream of recreating the Stalinist Soviet Empire buffer-zone which is what the Ukraine fracas is about. .....IMHO:/\\!! EDIT: http://www.activistpost.com/2015/12/is-turkey-closing-the-bosphorus-strait-escalating-with-russia.html (http://www.activistpost.com/2015/12/is-turkey-closing-the-bosphorus-strait-escalating-with-russia.html) [QUOTE]The 1936 Montreaux Convention on the Regime of the Straits governs the passage of ships both naval and civilian through the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus. Article 2 of the agreement states that “merchant vessels shall enjoy complete freedom of transit and navigation in the Straits, by day and by night, under any flag and with any kind of cargo, without any formalities.” Small and Medium naval warships and vessels must be permitted to pass through the Strait as well during times of peace with Black Sea powers able to sail any class of ship through the waterway. During times of war, the discretion is left up to the Turkish government.[QUOTE]

[Commander Wallace]

[QUOTE=Aktungbby;2365094]A little background there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_St raits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_St raits) Throwing in the the geopolitical issues of the Trojan War (1250 BC) The Peloponnesian War(450 BC) and Gallipoli over this waterway and 'nuthin goes outta style' in 3000 years; Putin took the impoverished Crimea back to get a rent-free port at Sebastopol and I suspect his involvement in Syria is a WWII channel-ports style ploy to expand his naval front-door to the Mediterranean with bases on the Levantine coast west of the easily closed strait. This would greatly circumvent NATO bottling up the southern 'prong' of the Russian Navy as Putin continues his dream of recreating the Stalinist Soviet Empire buffer-zone which is what the Ukraine fracas is about. .....IMHO:/\\!! EDIT: http://www.activistpost.com/2015/12/is-turkey-closing-the-bosphorus-strait-escalating-with-russia.html (http://www.activistpost.com/2015/12/is-turkey-closing-the-bosphorus-strait-escalating-with-russia.html) [QUOTE]The 1936 Montreaux Convention on the Regime of the Straits governs the passage of ships both naval and civilian through the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus. Article 2 of the agreement states that “merchant vessels shall enjoy complete freedom of transit and navigation in the Straits, by day and by night, under any flag and with any kind of cargo, without any formalities.” Small and Medium naval warships and vessels must be permitted to pass through the Strait as well during times of peace with Black Sea powers able to sail any class of ship through the waterway. During times of war, the discretion is left up to the Turkish government.


Nothing new here with the exception of the Trojan and Peloponnesian War(450 BC) and Gallipoli .
I'm pretty sure I posted the same thing back in post #135.

One thing to consider. Turkey maintains control of the Dardanelle straits, the Sea of Marmara and the Bosporus These are essentially waterways in Turkey connecting the Aegean Sea and the Mediterranean to the Black Sea.
Control of these routes of passage was granted to Turkey under the 1936 Montreux Convention .
This convention has always been a source of tension between Russia and Turkey . Stalin himself chaffed at Turkish control of the straits . In negotiations of the non aggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union, Stalin indicated a desire to take control of the straits in exchange for the signing of the non aggression pact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montre...of_the_Straits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_St raits)

Russia sends supplies from it's Novorossiysk naval base in the Black Sea to Russian ports in Tartus and Latakia. Russian vessels have enjoyed passage through the straits but Russian flagged vessels are now said to " wait for hours " before being allowed passage .

Logistically speaking, If Russia can't resupply their forces, then what. I'm sure supplies could be airlifted in but still. The question is, how important are the straits to Russia with regards to resupply of their forces in Syria ? How much of their economy in the form of cargo ships pass through those straits ?

If Turkey believes or considers itself in imminent danger of attack, Turkey can legally close or restrict access to those waterways Under article 20 and 21 of the Montreux convention.

The following is taken from the pages of the convention signed in 1936 .




TRADUCTION - TRANSLATION CONVENTION REGARDING THE
REGIME OF THE STRAITS SIGNED AT MONTREUX, JULY 20 TH, 1936
French official text communicated by the Permanent Delegate of Turkey to the League of Nations.
The registration of this Convention took place December 11th, 1936.
HIS MAJESTY
Article 19.
In time of war, Turkey not being belligerent, warships shall enjoy complete freedom of transit and
navigation through the Straits under the same conditions as those laid down in Article 10 to 18.
Vessels of war belonging to belligerent Powers shall not however, pass through the Straits except in
cases arising out of the application of Article 25 of the present Convention, and in cases of assistance
rendered to a State victim of aggression in virtue of a treaty of mutual assistance binding-Turkey,
concluded within the framework of the Covenant of the League of Nations, and registered and
published in accordance with the provisions of Article 18 of the Covenant.
In the exceptional cases provided for in the preceding paragraph, the limitations laid down in Article 10
to 18 of the present Convention shall not be applicable.
Notwithstanding the prohibition of passage laid down in paragraph 2 above, vessels of war belonging
to belligerent Powers, whether they are Black Sea Powers or not, which have become separated from
their bases, may return thereto.
Vessels of war belonging to belligerent Powers shall not make any capture, exercise the right of visit
and search, or carry out any hostile act in the Straits.

Article 20.
In time of war, Turkey being belligerent, the provisions of Articles 10 to 18 shall not be applicable; the
passage of warships shall be left entirely to the discretion of the Turkish Government.
Article 21.
Should Turkey consider herself to be threatened with imminent danger of war she shall have the right
to apply the provisions of Article 20 of the present Convention.
Vessels which have passed through the Straits before Turkey has made use of the powers conferred
upon her by the preceding paragraph, and which thus find themselves separated from their bases,
may return thereto. It is, however, understood that Turkey may deny this right to vessels of war
belonging to the State whose attitude has given rise to the application of the present Article.
Should the Turkish Government make use of the powers conferred by the first paragraph of the
present Article, a notification to that effect shall be addressed to the High Contracting Parties and to
the Secretary-General of the League of Nations.
If the Council of the League of Nations decide by a majority of two-thirds that the measures thus taken
by Turkey are not justified, and if such should also be the opinion of the majority of the High
Contracting Parties signatories to the present Convention, the Turkish Government undertakes to
discontinue the measures in question as also any measures which may have been taken under Article
6 of the present Convention.

[ikalugin]

About the improved Kilo class submarine "Rostov on Don", it actually did come from the Arctic, as it was a new sub and was being tested there. It also made a stop in Kronshtat for a minor refit/rearmament before proceding to it's launch area in Med.


About the logistics and the straits. What Turkey did do in the past is to try to unilaterally enforce the status of internal waters or even port waters ("port of Istambul") onto the straights. This means that under internal turkish regulations they could delay or stop traffic, including military traffic.

Because this status was declared unilaterally by Turkey, Russia can (and would) ignore it and act in accordance to the UN conventions and other international agreements applicable.

In the past turks did try to interfere with our passage (ie about 10 years ago they blocked the ship's path and ordered our Large Landing Ship to stop and prepare to be borded) but so far it blew into their face (the landing ship in question did not stop, went to battle stations, prepared armed security teams and trained it's arty on the turkish boat in question and prepared for ramming, the boat retreated.)

As such, should turks block the straights it would be de facto declaration of war against Russia with all the consequences. Logistics wise we could always supply stuff in Syria via Med, if the straights get closed and there is no all out war we have to take care of. Economy wise - a lot of our oil exports go through the straights (and exports in general), but as their closure would be de facto declaration of war that would be a secondary concern.

What turks could do is to make our life harder, with delays on passage. Those delays however can be objective in nature (ie large ammount of traffic going through).

[Commander Wallace]

About the improved Kilo class submarine "Rostov on Don", it actually did come from the Arctic, as it was a new sub and was being tested there. It also made a stop in Kronshtat for a minor refit/rearmament before proceding to it's launch area in Med.


About the logistics and the straits. What Turkey did do in the past is to try to unilaterally enforce the status of internal waters or even port waters ("port of Istambul") onto the straights. This means that under internal turkish regulations they could delay or stop traffic, including military traffic.

Because this status was declared unilaterally by Turkey, Russia can (and would) ignore it and act in accordance to the UN conventions and other international agreements applicable.

In the past turks did try to interfere with our passage (ie about 10 years ago they blocked the ship's path and ordered our Large Landing Ship to stop and prepare to be borded) but so far it blew into their face (the landing ship in question did not stop, went to battle stations, prepared armed security teams and trained it's arty on the turkish boat in question and prepared for ramming, the boat retreated.)

As such, should turks block the straights it would be de facto declaration of war against Russia with all the consequences. Logistics wise we could always supply stuff in Syria via Med, if the straights get closed and there is no all out war we have to take care of. Economy wise - a lot of our oil exports go through the straights (and exports in general), but as their closure would be de facto declaration of war that would be a secondary concern.

What turks could do is to make our life harder, with delays on passage. Those delays however can be objective in nature (ie large ammount of traffic going through).


Because of geography and misinformation in the media that often has a biased or slanted view , it' s hard to discern truth and fact from fiction. Thanks to you, Aktungbby , Oberon , Catfish , Shroeder and many others who provided insightful posts , we all have a better understanding of things .

Thanks for the clarification and real world view of things in that part of the world.

[Oberon]

Rostov on Don transitted the Bosporus heading back to the Black Sea.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWF_1p1W4AEbV6R.jpg:large


Meanwhile a Turkish fishing boat approached a Russian warship to within 600m (1,800ft) and was shooed away by a warning shot. The Turkish military attache in Moscow has been summoned to the foreign ministry over the incident.

[ikalugin]

http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12071679@egNews

[ikalugin]

http://gas.crimea.ru/index.php/ru/novosti/press-relizy/1606-burovye-chernomorneftegaza-vozvrashcheny-v-territorialnye-vody-rossijskoj-federatsii
Turks rock the boat yet again.

[eddie]

http://gas.crimea.ru/index.php/ru/novosti/press-relizy/1606-burovye-chernomorneftegaza-vozvrashcheny-v-territorialnye-vody-rossijskoj-federatsii
Turks rock the boat yet again.

Is there an english version of that? Can't read Russian.:)

[Schroeder]

In the mean time the EU has opened the next chapter of negotiations about membership with Turkey.:timeout:
http://news.yahoo.com/eu-open-chapter-turkish-membership-talks-ankara-152356771.html

I want to throw up.:/\\!!

[Betonov]

In the mean time the EU has opened the next chapter of negotiations about membership with Turkey.:timeout:
http://news.yahoo.com/eu-open-chapter-turkish-membership-talks-ankara-152356771.html

I want to throw up.:/\\!!

Hopefully someone will off Erdogan the moronic before they get into EU.

[Schroeder]

Hopefully someone will off Erdogan the moronic before they get into EU.
Idon't know who is more moronic, Edogan or the EU. I tend to think it's the EU by the looks of it.:/\\!!

[Betonov]

Idon't know who is more moronic, Edogan or the EU. I tend to think it's the EU by the looks of it.:/\\!!

EU is playing the game with the mindset that there's a big bad Russia to the east.
The same big bad Russia that keeps one of it's members from tanking :/\\!!

[Nippelspanner]

In the mean time the EU has opened the next chapter of negotiations about membership with Turkey.:timeout:
http://news.yahoo.com/eu-open-chapter-turkish-membership-talks-ankara-152356771.html

I want to throw up.:/\\!!
This is beyond ridiculous, how is this even possible!? :/\\!!

[Schroeder]

This is beyond ridiculous, how is this even possible!? :/\\!!
Because the EU is full of opportunistic rear end openings that don't give a sheet for their own "values" if it suits their needs for the moment.

But Assad is an evil dictator who we can't talk to and who needs to be removed ASAP....oh the hypocrisy.http://www.smileygarden.de/smilie/Kotzen/2.gif (http://www.smileygarden.de)

[Jimbuna]

Is there an english version of that? Can't read Russian.:)

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgas.crimea.ru%2Findex.php%2Fru%2Fno vosti%2Fpress-relizy%2F1606-burovye-chernomorneftegaza-vozvrashcheny-v-territorialnye-vody-rossijskoj-federatsii

[Reece]

In the mean time the EU has opened the next chapter of negotiations about membership with Turkey.:timeout:
http://news.yahoo.com/eu-open-chapter-turkish-membership-talks-ankara-152356771.html

I want to throw up.:/\\!!
That is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard, this should be put to a vote by the European people. Makes you wonder what's next!!!:down:
Well guys, looks like you might be getting some new neighbors.:dead:

[Schroeder]

That is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard, this should be put to a vote by the European people. Makes you wonder what's next!!!:down:
Well guys, looks like you might be getting some new neighbors.:dead:
Don't you want to join as well? Being in Europe obviously isn't a criteria anymore and at least the cultures would be more compatible.:yeah:

[eddie]

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgas.crimea.ru%2Findex.php%2Fru%2Fno vosti%2Fpress-relizy%2F1606-burovye-chernomorneftegaza-vozvrashcheny-v-territorialnye-vody-rossijskoj-federatsii
Thanks Jim, too tired this morning to think of that,lol

[eddie]

Don't you want to join as well? Being in Europe obviously isn't a criteria anymore and at least the cultures would be more compatible.:yeah:

I hear Somalia and Yemen will be next to ask if they can join the EU:D

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I hear Somalia and Yemen will be next to ask if they can join the EU:DDaesh would be more logical: its next down the road and it has most in common with Erdoghan the Moronic's Turkey. :nope:

Does anyone know name of Turkey's secret police? I may have meeting with them in near future... :hmmm:

(Ofcourse assuming nobody messes up his plans. Paging Moscow...)

[Oberon]

In Putins Russia, Moscow pages you!

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BLnUkDw3HKs/hqdefault.jpg

[Reece]

Don't you want to join as well? Being in Europe obviously isn't a criteria anymore and at least the cultures would be more compatible.:yeah:
Nah, too many Turks!!:03:

[Oberon]

Russian test cruise missile hits block of flats:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35106935

Oops! Thankfully no-one was killed. :timeout:

[Betonov]

They test it in the middle of nowhere and still hit an urban area

[eddie]

A guy in Texas own his own Plumbing Business. In 2013, he sells a truck with his business ad still on the side of it, to a dealer. The dealer promised him he would remove the ad before he sold it. But he didn't. Someone from Turkey saw the truck for sale online, and bought it. For some strange reason, whoever bought the truck in Turkey, ended up selling it to Daesh. Daesh put up a picture of the truck online after they mounted a gun on it, with the guys plumbing ad still on it,lol Now the guy is getting threatening phone calls from around the country, cussing him out for aiding Daesh! Our Govt knows he didn't sell it to them, so he isn't in trouble that way. So he is suing the dealer for not taking his ad off before selling it. Only in America,lol Its also nice to know Turkey isn't in bed with Daesh.:88)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-plumber-i-didnt-sell-my-truck-to-isis/

[Catfish]

... Someone from Turkey saw the truck for sale online, and bought it. For some straight reason, whoever bought the truck in Turkey, ended up selling it to Daesh. [...] Its also nice to know Turkey isn't in bed with Daesh.:88)]

Fixed that for you, from "strange", to straight.

Aye.
B.t.w. anyone knows whether Erdoghan also has a car dealer business running? :hmm2:

[Oberon]

Erdogan strikes me as about as trustworthy as a used car salesman... :hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

Erdogan strikes me as about as trustworthy as a used car salesman... :hmmm:That is not as low as U can go!:D
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1654/honesty-ethics-professions.aspx (http://www.gallup.com/poll/1654/honesty-ethics-professions.aspx)