Sonarman not automatically detecting sounds

[xXNightEagleXx]

At the moment my sonarman just became useless, it simply does not detect any sound unless i detect it manually first and still it need to be very close. It is kind boring having to operate the sonar manually just to know if there is any enemy around me.

[MODS]
TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5=1
RSRDC_TMO_V502=2
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1=3
1.5_Optical Targeting Correction 031312 for RSRDCv502=4
Traveller Mod v2.6 TMO=5
Traveller Mod 2.6 OTC 1.5 Patch=6
Traveller Mod 2.6 OTC 1.5 Automatic Ship ID=7
1.5_OTC for 16 to 9 Aspect Ratio RSRDCv502=8
Improved Stock Environment_v2=9
#2 ISE Realistic Colors=10
Bigger Better Protractors=11
410 Rockin Robbins EZ Plot V2.0=12

[meunomeeninguem]

No one?

[Rockin Robbins]

What you have to do is remove all mods and run SH4. Sonarman not deaf? Good. Install Mod #1. Try again. Not deaf? Continue with Mod #2. Test. Install next mod. Test......you get the idea. That is the only way you can tell if your game is working right and which mod does the dirty deed.

Let us know what you find.

[xXNightEagleXx]

I was trying to avoid that but i guess that i even know which one created this problem......traveller's mod....

[Moonlight]

You'll find that RSRDC is also a problematic mod as well.

[xXNightEagleXx]

You'll find that RSRDC is also a problematic mod as well.

Thanks, i didn't know about this.

[CaptainRamius]

What you have to do is remove all mods and run SH4. Sonarman not deaf? Good. Install Mod #1. Try again. Not deaf? Continue with Mod #2. Test. Install next mod. Test......you get the idea. That is the only way you can tell if your game is working right and which mod does the dirty deed.

Let us know what you find.

I'd do this. It's the most time-consuming, but it's definite that you'll find what mod is causing what problem.

[xXNightEagleXx]

I'd do this. It's the most time-consuming, but it's definite that you'll find what mod is causing what problem.

Thanks, however after researches, using the keyword deaf, i found out that this is a common issue with rfb 2.0 (might no apply to everyone). At least in my case i have confirmed that this issue has shown even using only rfb 2.0 mod + patch.
Unfortunately this mod doesn't work properly for me, so i'll stick to TMO only without travelly (which introduced the deaf issue with TMO).

[TorpX]

At the moment my sonarman just became useless, it simply does not detect any sound unless i detect it manually first and still it need to be very close. It is kind boring having to operate the sonar manually just to know if there is any enemy around me.



Do you mean he really can't hear anything, or that he doesn't hear well?

Many complain that their soundman is 'deaf', but it turns out he hears as well as he should (not too well).

The US sound gear, in the early part of the war could not reliably detect ships beyond maybe 7,000 yds. Since you can normally see much farther than this, you might think something's wrong. People who are used to SH3, where their German gear can pick up Allied convoys from over the horizon, think this is a bug, but it is not.

Also, you should note, the game only uses one sensor at a time. If you are looking at a ship through the scope, your sound man will not report it. AFAIK, mods can't fix this.

These sound issues are old, and well known. They really have nothing to do with anyone's mods. They are a consequence of the games simplistic sound/sensor mechanics.



You'll find that RSRDC is also a problematic mod as well.

I really wish people wouldn't say this sort of thing. If you have experienced a particular problem, or think you have, you should state what it is. It is really unfair to say something very vague, and not verifiable, like this. Often, people have said "XYZ mod caused this problem.", and later it becomes evident that said problem has other causes.

I really don't know why it has become fashionable to criticize RSRDC all of a sudden. It has been a very widely used, and popular mod. I will point out, no one has released a later historical campaign mod.

[CaptainRamius]

Do you mean he really can't hear anything, or that he doesn't hear well?

Many complain that their soundman is 'deaf', but it turns out he hears as well as he should (not too well).

The US sound gear, in the early part of the war could not reliably detect ships beyond maybe 7,000 yds. Since you can normally see much farther than this, you might think something's wrong. People who are used to SH3, where their German gear can pick up Allied convoys from over the horizon, think this is a bug, but it is not.

Also, you should note, the game only uses one sensor at a time. If you are looking at a ship through the scope, your sound man will not report it. AFAIK, mods can't fix this.

These sound issues are old, and well known. They really have nothing to do with anyone's mods. They are a consequence of the games simplistic sound/sensor mechanics.





I really wish people wouldn't say this sort of thing. If you have experienced a particular problem, or think you have, you should state what it is. It is really unfair to say something very vague, and not verifiable, like this. Often, people have said "XYZ mod caused this problem.", and later it becomes evident that said problem has other causes.

I really don't know why it has become fashionable to criticize RSRDC all of a sudden. It has been a very widely used, and popular mod. I will point out, no one has released a later historical campaign mod.



I think he knows what "deaf" means.
He means to say that the sonarman on his sub will not detect sounds (not even mentioning a bearing to the target) unless he manually goes to the sonar station.

[TorpX]

I think he knows what "deaf" means.
He means to say that the sonarman on his sub will not detect sounds (not even mentioning a bearing to the target) unless he manually goes to the sonar station.
Then how do you explain all the people who use the same mods, who have a soundman that can hear sounds?

[CaptainRamius]

Then how do you explain all the people who use the same mods, who have a soundman that can hear sounds?




I don't know :D

[Barkerov]

I think he knows what "deaf" means.
He means to say that the sonarman on his sub will not detect sounds (not even mentioning a bearing to the target) unless he manually goes to the sonar station.

TorpX's question was valid. In order to diagnose the problem you need to know under what circumstances the sonarman can't hear. It could be that the mods are working as they are supposed to.

The range to the unheard target is critical information. So is the target speed and relative bearing for that matter.

[CaptainRamius]

TorpX's question was valid. In order to diagnose the problem you need to know under what circumstances the sonarman can't hear. It could be that the mods are working as they are supposed to.

The range to the unheard target is critical information. So is the target speed and relative bearing for that matter.

Yeah, that's right. TorpX, truce? :D

[TorpX]

Yeah, that's right. TorpX, truce? :D

I forgive you. :)

It has been a very common problem/situation. I've wondered about my soundman often. After hardly ever getting any sound reports, there was some haze(fog in game files) on my last patrol. My soundman actually reported some contacts. I was amazed!

Don't blame modders for this; it's really Ubisoft's fault. They left us with a game where our crews cannot see and hear at the same time.

[Gibus]

I will point out, no one has released a later historical campaign mod.
Bonjour,

Yet though. And it is in French only. And it is here: http://www.mille-sabords.com/forum/index.php?autocom=Downloads&showfile=531

Man sonar hears everything, including the cries of dolphins. :yeah:

[CaptainRamius]

I forgive you. :)

Thanks :yeah:

[Rockin Robbins]

Well, I've been on the anti-RSRDC bus since the mod came out. But it has nothing to do with reporting or not reporting sounds. I've used RSRDC with TMO, stock and GFO. It has no influence on sonar reports at all.

However, calling RSRDC a "historical" mod is just silly. War is a dynamic thing and to experience it authentically, it must be a dynamic, not strictly scripted thing. RSRDC puts the Japanese in a straitjacket.

Let's say that during the war convoys went past a certain point for a period of time. If, in the real war, you showed up with a submarine and blasted some merchies, they would re-route the convoy.

But in RSRDC it's like a shooting gallery where the little ducky just oscillates back and forth, back and forth. You just point your gun at the endpoint of the travel, time the shots and go ping! ping! ping! The ducky is oblivious and so is the Japanese navy in RSRDC.

Also RSRDC assumes knowledge that the US Navy didn't have, the exact nature of the Japanese shipping routes during the war. And if you think Japanese records are the gold standard of knowing the movement of every Japanese ship during the war, reflect that they were bombed into the stone age, both conventionally and with nuclear weapons. How many records were destroyed? How many records, in the heat of the moment, were "reconstructed" afterward or just never written down at all. Pretending to be able to reconstruct every Japanese ship movement of the war is just silly, even if it were appropriate, which it is not appropriate.

The real experience was random, just like the stock game. You can quibble with the nature of the groups of ships encountered, but you have to give the game devs a huge attaboy in realizing that sub captains went where ordered, productive or not. Boats under Lockwood had greater freedom of action than those under Christie. If, under Christie, you were frustrated and decided to sashay over to a choke point you thought might be more productive you'd find yourself sashaying to a ground pounding job upon your return.

The brass didn't have a chart of the Japanese shipping lanes like we have and those lanes were not static. They moved about as circumstances dictated. The Japanese didn't force shipping by a submarine just because some script told them to. They moved the shipping to avoid.

With RSRDC you just game the system, enjoying an absolute god-mode mastery of never being surprised, always heading where the action will be knowing the enemy is blind, deaf and dumb. I can assure you the Japanese were not blind, deaf and dumb. It is RSRDC that is blind, deaf and dumb.

For game playing authenticity, the stock game beats RSRDC in just about every way. Calling RSRDC a "historical" campaign mod is a grave disservice to the very concept of a dynamic campaign game.

That's only half of my criticism of RSRDC. The other half is more severe, because the RSRDC historical campaign mod is neither historical, nor is it just a campaign mod. It is also an anti-GFO, anti-RFB and anti-TMO mod.

[Barkerov]

The brass didn't have a chart of the Japanese shipping lanes like we have and those lanes were not static. They moved about as circumstances dictated. The Japanese didn't force shipping by a submarine just because some script told them to. They moved the shipping to avoid.

With RSRDC you just game the system, enjoying an absolute god-mode mastery of never being surprised, always heading where the action will be knowing the enemy is blind, deaf and dumb. I can assure you the Japanese were not blind, deaf and dumb. It is RSRDC that is blind, deaf and dumb.

For game playing authenticity, the stock game beats RSRDC in just about every way. Calling RSRDC a "historical" campaign mod is a grave disservice to the very concept of a dynamic campaign game.

That's only half of my criticism of RSRDC. The other half is more severe, because the RSRDC historical campaign mod is neither historical, nor is it just a campaign mod. It is also an anti-GFO, anti-RFB and anti-TMO mod.

What if you deliberately ignore the charts and don't try to game the system?

[fitzcarraldo]

What if you deliberately ignore the charts and don't try to game the system?

You can game the RSRDC system two or three campaigns. After that you know all about Japanese traffic.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[Barkerov]

You can game the RSRDC system two or three campaigns. After that you know all about Japanese traffic.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

And that's when I will change to another mod!

[xXNightEagleXx]

[INDENT] Do you mean he really can't hear anything, or that he doesn't hear well?

Many complain that their soundman is 'deaf', but it turns out he hears as well as he should (not too well).

The US sound gear, in the early part of the war could not reliably detect ships beyond maybe 7,000 yds. Since you can normally see much farther than this, you might think something's wrong. People who are used to SH3, where their German gear can pick up Allied convoys from over the horizon, think this is a bug, but it is not.

Also, you should note, the game only uses one sensor at a time. If you are looking at a ship through the scope, your sound man will not report it. AFAIK, mods can't fix this.

These sound issues are old, and well known. They really have nothing to do with anyone's mods. They are a consequence of the games simplistic sound/sensor mechanics.



I will just describe this situation: being at 50 feet, deep 0kn and enemy no more than 5000yd and still doesn't report any contact, unless i manually find him with the hydrophone (very very loud sound). Just then the sonarman proceeds with the first contact report like a big troll.

[Barkerov]

I will just describe this situation: being at 50 feet, deep 0kn and enemy no more than 5000yd and still doesn't report any contact, unless i manually find him with the hydrophone (very very loud sound). Just then the sonarman proceeds with the first contact report like a big troll.

I am not convinced its a bug. What is the surface weather like? More importantly what happens as you get closer?

also after you get him to call out the contact can he follow it?

[xXNightEagleXx]

I am not convinced its a bug. What is the surface weather like? More importantly what happens as you get closer?

also after you get him to call out the contact can he follow it?

-clear sky
-nothing until very close
-yes, by then it follows him

[xXNightEagleXx]

Ok, i've just reinstalled everything and applied only rfb 2.0 + patch.....it seems to work properly now.

In order to avoid any wrong interpretation, how the AI hydrophone works in rfb 2.0, what is its limit?


UPDATE: definitely it is working better now, just for information i was struggling to get the contact detection even on the tutorial attack torpedo.

[Barkerov]

If I do the listening I have found I can hear (by hear I mean see a green light) ships up to 20nm.

If the sonarman does the listening I am not exactly sure what the distance is.
It will depend on his sensor skill though.

[TorpX]

I will just describe this situation: being at 50 feet, deep 0kn and enemy no more than 5000yd and still doesn't report any contact, unless i manually find him with the hydrophone (very very loud sound). Just then the sonarman proceeds with the first contact report like a big troll. I won't pretend to know all the ins and outs of the game here, but know that the games sound mechanics are poor. Personally, I stopped expecting much in this department when I noticed I could hear ships on the other side of an island.

You didn't say whether your scope was up or not.

As I said before, the game is hard-wired to use only one sensor at a time. I get very few sound contacts, since I am patrolling with my periscope up. The game uses the best sensor to determine detection, and that is the scope, usually. I could lower my scope and get more sound contacts, but it would hardly be worth it. The one sensor mechanic applies to both us and them, btw.

In the past, some of the ships seemed to be missing sounds, so would cause crashes, but I believe most of these problems have been fixed.

My point is that this sort of thing is very unlikely to be due to TMO, RFB, or any other mod. The game is flawed in many areas, and this is one of them.





About being able to hear ships up to 20nm, that is another game flaw. The normal (crew) sound detections are not synced to what you can hear. It is a flaw; you should not really be able to hear that well, it is unrealistic.

[Barkerov]

About being able to hear ships up to 20nm, that is another game flaw. The normal (crew) sound detections are not synced to what you can hear. It is a flaw; you should not really be able to hear that well, it is unrealistic.

Is there a way to change it to a more realistic value?

[TorpX]

Is there a way to change it to a more realistic value?

I doubt it.

The crew detection ranges can, and have been, changed to realistic values (at least in RFB), but the ranges at which we hear are always at the high end. You see your sub's crew gets better as their equipment improves, but what we hear is always at the best level; it doesn't change. That is how it was explained to me.

If it was possible to correct, someone would have done it by now.

I would say just don't do manual hydrophone sweeps, until after your crew detects something.

I believe the RFB team was well aware of the issue, but lacked any means to fix it. I imagine Ducimus (of TMO fame) knew about it just as well.

[xXNightEagleXx]

I doubt it.

The crew detection ranges can, and have been, changed to realistic values (at least in RFB), but the ranges at which we hear are always at the high end. You see your sub's crew gets better as their equipment improves, but what we hear is always at the best level; it doesn't change. That is how it was explained to me.

If it was possible to correct, someone would have done it by now.

I would say just don't do manual hydrophone sweeps, until after your crew detects something.

I believe the RFB team was well aware of the issue, but lacked any means to fix it. I imagine Ducimus (of TMO fame) knew about it just as well.





My negative feedback was due to two thing:

1 There was really a bug but it solved as i reinstalled just some mods (specially with TMO).
2 After the reinstall, i immediately jumped to RFB full time (practically for the first time). IMO in TMO all sensors work much better both in theory (specs) and in practice. In TMO both me and the AI can hear from a much bigger distance even higher than the sonar spec.

[Rockin Robbins]

NightEagle, in response to your PM, here is my present mod list:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/screenshot.422_zps4etwpiua.jpg

I'm running RSRDC right now because I was testing my plotting mods to ensure that they worked for RSRDC ships. GFO Patch for RSRDC partially gets Webster's GFO back from all the gameplay changes RSRDC makes. It doesn't totally succeed. Momi-Matsu fix is because RSRDC doesn't plot either ship on your nav map and that's kinda bad. 3000 yard bearing plotter is Capn Scurvy's, properly plotting for 1152x864 resolution. Optical Targeting Correction has been corrected by removing the spotlessly perfect ship dimensions and identification manual, keeping stock versions of both. I'm not releasing that one without express approval from CapnScurvy. TMOKeys gives me the great TMO Keyboard, before TMO 2.5 changes.

All the rest are missions and skins which have no impact on gameplay at all.

[TorpX]

My negative feedback was due to two thing:

1 There was really a bug but it solved as i reinstalled just some mods (specially with TMO).
2 After the reinstall, i immediately jumped to RFB full time (practically for the first time). IMO in TMO all sensors work much better both in theory (specs) and in practice. In TMO both me and the AI can hear from a much bigger distance even higher than the sonar spec.

Installs can get borked, so I can't really say much about that.

Sensor values certainly can be changed; it's just that no one was able to sync them to what we hear. It is like what Cap'nScurvy noticed about how sometimes we cannot hear slow-moving ships, though our crews can. It is just another example of poor game design that we have to live with.

The same thing can occur with visuals. Depending on the sensor values in force, we might be able to see ships before our crew spots them, or vice-versa. Ideally, we would see as well as our crew; no better, and no worse.

[Rockin Robbins]

All Torpx says is true. And it's much easier to swallow when you reflect that Silent Hunter 4 is still the best submarine simulator on the planet after a run of eight years.

Would we like to do better? Of course. Can we? No.

[xXNightEagleXx]

Sir yes sir captains

Btw when i said that sensors work much better in TMO i wasn't strictly meaning better in the sense of realistic or whatever, but just in a matter of performance.

[Spraug]

... since you can set the sonarguy to do different things, could it be that he is simply not sweeping? That should be a default, but maybe it's as simple as that...

[TorpX]

I won't cost anything to try, but I doubt it.

If you order him to sweep, he might report a contact within range, but afterwards, he will likely go back to daydreaming.

[xXNightEagleXx]

UPDATE : skip this post, read my last one


Sorry for bringing this thing up but i'm the kind of guy that just don't accept things without understanding if there is an error or it is the normal procedure. Moreover, in case there is an error i have to try to fix it.


What was the average range for US submarine hydrophones in perfect conditions ?
Searching in the web i've read pretty high numbers, like this one :

- for a destroyer- 5 to 10 nautical miles,
- for a cargo ship- 3.5 to 7.5 nautical miles,
- for a convoy- up to 50 nautical miles.

In case of german hydrophones i've read even higher numbers.

Can someone be so kind to answer this question to me?

That said, supposing that RFB 2.0 is really struggling with sound detection being far below than reality, i've tried to isolate the files creating this weird behavior and start to analyze the situation against the same setup on stock and tmo.

Sensors_sub_US.dat
Sensors_sub_US.sim
Sensors_sub_US.zon

I've run one of the single missions (to have a similar behavior) and the first contact results was :

RFB original no contact
RFB + stock files greater than 18.500 km
RFB + TMO files greater than 15.500 km

(i've run the same test twice and the contact time was about the same)

So i guess i clearly found what files are causing this behavior (maybe just one of them or maybe all of them)

So now my request is to those modders like TorpX, would you be so kind to address me to the best way to analyze and mod those files? Since they are in binary and I don't know if there is already a tool to help modders to deal with them.


Thanks in advance

[xXNightEagleXx]

UPDATE: : Further reading lead me to the conclusion that RFB 2.0 sonar ranges are both right and wrong. In case of active sonar there isn't a noticeable mistake, but in case of passive sonar there are arguments that can be discussed (it seems that the values in rfb 2.0 are for detection and identification at worst conditions). Basically the range for passive are much greater than the 7 km when it is about detection, for target identification the range decreases but still greater. Unfortunately it doesn't seem that sh4 handles this distinct difference.


OLD STUFF:

Nobody answered me about how to edit dat files thus i found out by myself.

That said i see no mystery here on why sensors in RFB works badly, these are the real values :

stock - 15/20 km for hydro and 5 km for sonar
tmo - 10.5/15/16/21 km for hydro and 5k for sonar
rfb - 7/10 km for hydro and sonar 5k

My question is, are these rfb values replicating the reality? I mean currently according to rfb the hydro range not only is low but also had a slight improvement through the war.....is that so? (i mean historically speaking)

Obviously that file shows that i cannot simply overwrite with tmo or stock files, i should clearly work on the original rfb files, which i'll do. But first as i said i would like to have information about real life ww2 us subs hydro, sonar and radar performance.