Terrorist attack in Paris, France

[Commander Wallace]

France once again is having to deal with a cowardly attack on it's citizens. At least 100 people were killed in a Paris concert hall. In addition, there were attacks at a restaurant, soccer stadium and a shopping mall. A state of emergency has been declared. The attacks were coordinated as they happened within minutes of each other.

French president Francois Hollande was in attendance at the Soccer match between France and Germany but was thankfully unharmed

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/paris-rocked-by-explosions-and-shootouts-leaving-dozens-dead/2015/11/13/133f5bc2-8a50-11e5-bd91-d385b244482f_story.html


In August of this year, an attack on a train was thwarted by 2 American service men, a Briton and another individual.


There was another attack at publishing house and magazine,Charlie Hebdo Jan 7, 2015 in which 12 were killed


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710883




Thoughts and prayers go out to France and it's citizens .

[Nippelspanner]

OK, I gotta vent a little....
I tried to follow the attacks / ongoing event as it happened via ARD/ZDF/N24 live streams, those are 3 TV channels here in Germania.

On all of them, all the time... THEY TALKED ABOUT THE FFFF FOOTBALL TEAM BEING IN THE STADIUMS CATACOMBS!

WTF!???

I don't give a RATS BEHIND about some over-payed athletes while over a hundred people die OUTSIDE the stadium, where things are actually happening!

PRIORITIES I guess... :/\\!!

[nikimcbee]

OK, I gotta vent a little....
I tried to follow the attacks / ongoing event as it happened via ARD/ZDF/N24 live streams, those are 3 TV channels here in Germania.

On all of them, all the time... THEY TALKED ABOUT THE FFFF FOOTBALL TEAM BEING IN THE STADIUMS CATACOMBS!

WTF!???

I don't give a RATS BEHIND about some over-payed athletes while over a hundred people die OUTSIDE the stadium, where things are actually happening!

PRIORITIES I guess... :/\\!!

I feel your pain. I was surfing through the local channels and one was showing social media memes.:down: I hate social media when it comes to this stuff. It's not news.

[Torplexed]

Just awful. Amazing how much mayhem a few fanatics can cause. :nope:

Friday the 13th, a date which has been traded up from superstition to infamy.

[eddie]

Such a tragic event. I hope the nightmare for them is over.

But, Friday the 13th hasn't been a good day for Daesh either, Kurdish forces, backed by US airstrikes, have retaken Sinjar! And I guarantee we killed more then 150 pieces of Daesh crap in that deal!

[Stealhead]

Jihad Johnny was also killed today by a hellfire launched by a drone. Or should be said that the DOD feels that it is very likely that JJ is dead.

[HW3]

ISIS is claiming responsibility and saying the next targets are Rome, London, and Washington DC. Authorities caught one of the attackers who said he was ISIS I read.
If this doesn't wake up the world governments to what they are inviting into their countries, United States included, nothing will.

[Dmitry Markov]

My sincere condolences to everyone who suffered.

[eddie]

My prayers go out for the families of the innocent Russians killed in the tragic bombing of their aircraft.

[BossMark]

My prayers to all those involved.
Latest from the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34814203

[Hitman]

I hope this wakes up our governments and they finally understand that we must bring war to those bastards instead of waiting here for them to bring it to us. The ISIS must be annihilated in the ME, not one by one here after they kill hundreds of us :nope:

[Eichhörnchen]

My prayers go out for the families of the innocent Russians killed in the tragic bombing of their aircraft.

Oddly, my (the) very last post in the music thread expressed this very sentiment right before the gigantic Spam Bomb robbed us of it last week: "The Russian people, a beautiful people so in love with their country, our hearts go out to you since that awful aerial tragedy".

Now our hearts go out again all too soon, to our dear friends in France.

[Betonov]

Stay strong France, you showed more than enough times you're able to survive.

[STEED]

No confirmed news here who carried it out, the only bit of news was the attack was carried out in the name of Syria.

I see just in....

The near-simultaneous attacks in Paris that killed at least 127 people and wounded more than 180 were an "act of war" carried out by Islamic State, says France's President Francois Hollande.
He said the attacks, carried out by eight gunmen and suicide bombers, were "organised and planned from outside".
Busy bars and restaurants, a music concert and a high-profile football match were all targeted.
Mr Hollande has declared three days of national mourning.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34820016

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

My condolences to all victims.

[Catfish]

ISIS is claiming responsibility .....

You are claiming WHAT? You are cowardly PIGS, nothing else, and you have neither control nor anything, you pompous pricks.

Taking hostages and killing is the most cowardly action at all, and if Mohammed lived he would kill you all!


Why can't we build up a multi-national task foce and free the earth from those idiots. Is there any national support for ISIS, apart from Turkey and Erdoghan?

[Oberon]

Rome? Why the heck would they want to hit Rome? What have the Italians done to annoy Daesh? :hmmm: London and Washington, fair enough...but Rome?
The Vatican, I suppose would be the only logical target there, I don't recall the Italian government doing much in Syria or Iraq in recent years.

I imagine the Vatican is well guarded though, but there's not a lot you can do to guard against such attacks as these, they are by their very definition surprise attacks.

Gatwick airport in the UK has been closed this morning, reports vary for the reason, some say that a grenade was found in someones luggage, others say that a gun was found.
Europe is going to be very jumpy for the next week or two.

[Tchocky]

I know people tend to get a bit suspicious about online privacy when it comes to Facebook, but it was a huge relief this morning to see my friends in Paris marked as "safe".

Was planning a visit there soon, and with EODM being one of my favourite groups and definitely compatible with my mates there....doesn't bear thinking about.


Lots of pilots this morning passing on messages of support when they heard an Air France voice on the frequency.

Sometimes it's the little things.

[Jimbuna]

A terribly tragic set of acts :nope:

My condolences to all those families and friends of the victims and especially to those of my nephews friend who it currently looks like was killed at the concert.

[Oberon]

I know people tend to get a bit suspicious about online privacy when it comes to Facebook, but it was a huge relief this morning to see my friends in Paris marked as "safe".

Yes, facebook did a good thing there. :yep:

Was planning a visit there soon, and with EODM being one of my favourite groups and definitely compatible with my mates there....doesn't bear thinking about. It does come as a shock and when you do go, I imagine you'll have this day in the back of your mind, as I did the first time I took the underground after 7/7.

Lots of pilots this morning passing on messages of support when they heard an Air France voice on the frequency.

Sometimes it's the little things.Bless them, it's good to hear of the little things.

Hope you're coping with the traffic problems from Gatwick. :salute:

Sorry to hear of your nephews friend, Jim.

[Tchocky]

So sorry to hear that, Jim.

There's almost nothing to say except I suppose you can pass on condolences from the guys at Subsim :/


Looking around for something to do -

Secours Populaire Francais - French anti-poverty, natural disaster, conflict relief charity.

Donate here (https://www.secourspopulaire.fr/don#.Vkct8-I3map)

Secours Catholique - Catholic relief organisation, emergency and crisis help.

Donate here (https://don.secours-catholique.org/don_non_affecte/~mon-don/)

Red Cross - https://www.redcross.org/donate/donation (http://here)

[Jimbuna]

Cheers gents....it's a bit strange the sadness I'm feeling for someone I never actually met but the seeing way my nephew is taking it really hits hard.

[ikalugin]

Condolences.

[Bilge_Rat]

shocking, my condolences to everyone.






Why can't we build up a multi-national task foce and free the earth from those idiots. Is there any national support for ISIS, apart from Turkey and Erdoghan?

we all know why, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya all turned into quagmires or failed states. Obama was elected on a anti war platform and even U.S. veterans have no wish to go back to Iraq.

No one really seemed to care when ISIS killed 200 Russians in the Sinai since, well they are Russians. :nope:

However this is a game changer. The French kicked ass in Mali and I would not be surprised is they want to do the same thing now with ISIS.

The real question and the one we have been asking for years is, what will the U.S. do ?

[Oberon]

Saudi Arabia supports Daesh, primarily because Daesh are fighting against Assad who Iran supports. I think the Saudis also support the other opposition groups, basically if they're shooting at Assads forces then the Saudis will give them money to continue doing so. Turkey is in much the same boat, it's not so much to do with radical Islam but regional geopolitics, with Turkey wanting to keep Syria down, and Saudi Arabia wanting to block Iran from becoming a major regional player.

The west sticking our hands into this, it's tricky and must be done very carefully or it'll be akin to putting our hands into a blender. :dead:

[Tchocky]

That might be the most depressing aspect of the aftermath - there's still no right answer to Syria/Iraq, even after horror so close to home.

I hold out some hope that this might affect the softer side - the financing and support of IS from wealthy Gulf states. That might be one place where Western countries might be able to exercise some true influence and cut the legs out from under IS.

Hope you're coping with the traffic problems from Gatwick.

I was on the early shift and was out the door before anything was heard. Would have made things tricky if inbounds were restricted as today's weather in S England meant many airports couldn't accept any diversions

[vienna]

Saudi Arabia supports Daesh, primarily because Daesh are fighting against Assad who Iran supports. I think the Saudis also support the other opposition groups, basically if they're shooting at Assads forces then the Saudis will give them money to continue doing so. Turkey is in much the same boat, it's not so much to do with radical Islam but regional geopolitics, with Turkey wanting to keep Syria down, and Saudi Arabia wanting to block Iran from becoming a major regional player.

The west sticking our hands into this, it's tricky and must be done very carefully or it'll be akin to putting our hands into a blender. :dead:

The Saudis and the Iranians are engaging in proxy wars, much as the US and USSR during the Cold War, particularly during the Reagan years. I really wish the Saudis would directly attack the Iranians or vice versa and put themselves out of the world's misery. As far as wealthy Saudis financially aiding and abetting ISIL, Al Qaeda, et al, I have no doubt the US and very, very likely other powers know the identity of those bastards; I would be very much in favor of diverting a few drones to visit upon those pompous oil-rich [insert expletive of your choice here] a bit of the destruction their actions mete out to the rest of the world...


I also give condolences to the victims and their families and friends. One of the images shown on TV here in LA was footage of French soccer fans being evacuated from the stadium; as the filed out, they were singing La Marseillaise...


<O>

[Highbury]

My condolences to all the victims, and I also give thanks. My wife and a friend had been in Paris less than 12 hours when this all started. They are both unharmed and safe, but it was a very stressful time.

[eddie]

I'm a bit confused on something . When over 200 Russian lives were lost by a bomb being placed on board their aircraft, where was the outpouring of sympathy for them? Are we so opposed to the actions of Putin's Govt, that the lives of these innocent Russian tourists don't mean anything? How is this different then when terrorists brought down our planes on 9/11?

When suicide bombers killed 40 people in Beirut just a day before the attacks in Paris, isn't that just as bad as what happened in France? Or do we think everyone in Lebanon is a member of Hezbollah or on the Iranian payroll. Just ordinary folks minding their own business, when their lives were snuffed out in a blinding explosion. Where was the worlds outcry over that?

When bombs go off in Baghdad, killing innocent women and children around a market place, where is our disgust and horror over that?

Just trying to get things in perspective, but end up confused over how we judge the loss of lives in other parts of the world. We rally around France (and its the right thing to do!!) but we are dead silent on other parts of the world, where lives are lost all the time.

I wanted to pray for the family in Afghanistan, whose little 9 year old girl was beheaded by Daesh wannabe's over there, but they were beheaded too. Not one stinking outpouring of sympathy was extended to them from the rest of the world. We are too damned busy picking and choosing whose lives are more important. The West can be so damned conceited at times I think, its pathetic.

[Skybird]

Question: is this WWIII already?

[mapuc]

Question: is this WWIII already?


The Pope said that some years ago.

Otherwise I really don't know, what does it take to say-yes now it is WWIII

Markus

[Tchocky]

Eddie - most of the nationalities represented here on GT have deeper ties to France than Russia or Lebanon.

We react stronger when it's our close friends. I mean just read the thread. That's not right or wrong, it's human.

As for Beirut, it's heartbreaking but not as brutally novel and shocking. I don't think I need to explain why.

Again, not right or wrong - human.

Skybird - No. You can't really have WW3 going on in the single most peaceful period in centuries. It's almost impossible by definition.

[eddie]

I understand in a way Tchocky, I guess I am tired of reading and hearing of so many innocent lives being lost around the world. This is a picture of the little girl killed in Afghanistan, her name was Shurkira. She was just a little older then my Granddaughter. She and her family lost their lives because their ethnic and religious backgrounds were different then what the animals who killed them would allow in their part of the world. I can't fathom how anyone could take her life.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/Thony/gettyimages-496528218_zpsdpcethkc.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Thony/media/gettyimages-496528218_zpsdpcethkc.jpg.html)

[Oberon]

Good point eddie, and well made, but unfortunately that is human nature. If one was to compare the daily deaths in the Middle East to our days of relative peace periodically shattered by a brutal massacre, well...there's a reason that so many people have left Syria...

[Bubblehead1980]

This is sad, just incredibly sad.Makes me sad, yet angry as this did not have to happen.For the world, was 9/11 not enough? Was the London bombings not enough? Was Charlie Hebdo not enough? When will the civilized world understand it is our tolerance as a society and "political correctness" killing us and will be our downfall if we do not combat these savages and their midevil ideology.

Sad truth is France is paying the price for years and years of tolerating these barbarians and their mindset.Now they are a large part of the population(7.5 %) and while not every muslim is a savage, a terrorist etc many who do carry out the violence, many support them in spirit.Some are good people just trying to live yet they do nothing to combat radicalism, to encourage a reformation in Islam to help defeat the savages among them.

Turns out, one of the attackers held a refugee passport which is not shocking! People who voiced concerns over there were as usual called names like xenophobe, racists, heartless etc then not years later, just few months after the invasion began, this happens.Sadly, this will probably happen again and will probably come to the US since our Dear Leader just allowed 10,000 to come here and just a day before the Paris attacks called ISIS "contained" lol Irrational tolerance by society, political correctness, and inept, naive leaders are a deadly combination.

Prayers, condolences etc will not save France or the civilized world, it's to time to get harsh, the defeat the cancer of Islam once and for all.This can be done, just takes the will.

[Commander Wallace]

I'm a bit confused on something . When over 200 Russian lives were lost by a bomb being placed on board their aircraft, where was the outpouring of sympathy for them? Are we so opposed to the actions of Putin's Govt, that the lives of these innocent Russian tourists don't mean anything? How is this different then when terrorists brought down our planes on 9/11?

When suicide bombers killed 40 people in Beirut just a day before the attacks in Paris, isn't that just as bad as what happened in France? Or do we think everyone in Lebanon is a member of Hezbollah or on the Iranian payroll. Just ordinary folks minding their own business, when their lives were snuffed out in a blinding explosion. Where was the worlds outcry over that?

When bombs go off in Baghdad, killing innocent women and children around a market place, where is our disgust and horror over that?

Just trying to get things in perspective, but end up confused over how we judge the loss of lives in other parts of the world. We rally around France (and its the right thing to do!!) but we are dead silent on other parts of the world, where lives are lost all the time.

I wanted to pray for the family in Afghanistan, whose little 9 year old girl was beheaded by Daesh wannabe's over there, but they were beheaded too. Not one stinking outpouring of sympathy was extended to them from the rest of the world. We are too damned busy picking and choosing whose lives are more important. The West can be so damned conceited at times I think, its pathetic.

Good point Eddie. I hadn't heard of the things you mentioned other than the Russian aircraft that went down last week. I need to listen to the news more but there is never any good news there. It seems life today has no value at all with these crazies . I think they are in the minority though. Sadly, that minority can hurt and kill many as they did last night. As far as the Russian aircraft,The only difference was that Russia didn't know what brought down their aircraft, not that it matters at all. What does matter is the Russian people lost on that aircraft were just as innocent and minding their own business going home .

Deepest sympathies to Russia for the lives lost on their aircraft as well as their families and friends and to Jim as well for the loss of his nephews friend and to France and the families of those lost last night that they can find some healing.

[Oberon]

Prayers, condolences etc will not save France or the civilized world, it's to time to get harsh, the defeat the cancer of Islam once and for all.This can be done, just takes the will.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is a perfect example of what the people who blew up and shot up Paris want people to think and say.

Bravo Bubbles for providing a perfect demonstration. :up:

[Bubblehead1980]

I'm a bit confused on something . When over 200 Russian lives were lost by a bomb being placed on board their aircraft, where was the outpouring of sympathy for them? Are we so opposed to the actions of Putin's Govt, that the lives of these innocent Russian tourists don't mean anything? How is this different then when terrorists brought down our planes on 9/11?

When suicide bombers killed 40 people in Beirut just a day before the attacks in Paris, isn't that just as bad as what happened in France? Or do we think everyone in Lebanon is a member of Hezbollah or on the Iranian payroll. Just ordinary folks minding their own business, when their lives were snuffed out in a blinding explosion. Where was the worlds outcry over that?

When bombs go off in Baghdad, killing innocent women and children around a market place, where is our disgust and horror over that?

Just trying to get things in perspective, but end up confused over how we judge the loss of lives in other parts of the world. We rally around France (and its the right thing to do!!) but we are dead silent on other parts of the world, where lives are lost all the time.

I wanted to pray for the family in Afghanistan, whose little 9 year old girl was beheaded by Daesh wannabe's over there, but they were beheaded too. Not one stinking outpouring of sympathy was extended to them from the rest of the world. We are too damned busy picking and choosing whose lives are more important. The West can be so damned conceited at times I think, its pathetic.


Eddie, I don't think it's anyone cares less about Russian lives but people sadly, are used to airliners going down with an average of 100-200 or so people killed.Given airliners are a favorite target of terrorists as history shows, not shocked it was islamic terrorists who brought it down.


The attacks France were a military like operation on Friday night at a theater, bistro, etc and were shocking in not just the type of attacks but the death toll and injuries for "only" 8 people to carry out.

Not everyone will agree with this but I will admit, I am not as moved by death in Beirut, Afghanistan etc unless are my own people.Nothing to do with race etc but those places are pits of the world, have been a long time and nothing changes.The "ordinary" people should have banded together and rose up to stop the madness but they don't, they just keep on following islam and living as they do.All they know, the US is Satan and they hate Israel lol.


Call it conceited but this is the classic clash of civilizations and when one side is stuck in another century and shows no signs, even the so called moderates, of reforming and joining the civilized world, people are bound to just not care.Suppose I can say I lose no sleep when a muslim in Beirut or Afghanistan dies, just does not bother me nor should it anyone.

Islam, especially the radical branch of it that actually manifests itself as terrorism is a cancer they we can and must defeat, just takes the iron will and resolve as the civilized world had to defeat our enemies of the past such as japan, hitler etc. Savage as they were, seem mild compared to islam.

[raymond6751]

I hope this wakes up our governments and they finally understand that we must bring war to those bastards instead of waiting here for them to bring it to us. The ISIS must be annihilated in the ME, not one by one here after they kill hundreds of us :nope:

Darn right! But we should also be going after those who support, supply, and buy ISIS oil. They are getting ammo from somewhere. Put a stop to that.
What they always say is "find the money".

Back in 2001 it was 'if you are not with us, then you are against us', so we should follow the trail of incoming support and outgoing oil.

[u crank]

Not everyone will agree with this but I will admit, I am not as moved by death in Beirut, Afghanistan etc unless are my own people.Nothing to do with race etc...


Suppose I can say I lose no sleep when a muslim in Beirut or Afghanistan dies, just does not bother me nor should it anyone.


Get your DNA checked. See if you're human.

[mapuc]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is a perfect example of what the people who blew up and shot up Paris want people to think and say.

Bravo Bubbles for providing a perfect demonstration. :up:

This is what I fear most

Thou more terror attacks happens in the west thou more supporters these people will get and you, me and other wil be a very little minorities

And we will have a war of some kind between us and the Islamic world-killing thousands of innocent on both side

I do hope I'm wrong.

Markus

[Bubblehead1980]

Get your DNA checked. See if you're human.

Plenty human, just not weak.Too many people are conditioned to be weak in our society and not understand the enemy hates you and will murder you, will not show the compassion so many naive and weak minded people.

Imagine if we treated the Japanese and Nazis this way? The war would have ended differently.Also, these people can not be reasoned with in any way shape of form.War is hell, they started and declared this war.We have tried to tolerate them, more than we should.Time to get serious.That means I shut off part of me that should care, I do because have to do.Hopefully we will get a crop of leaders who will act the same and handle these savages with extreme prejudice.

[Bubblehead1980]

This is what I fear most

Thou more terror attacks happens in the west thou more supporters these people will get and you, me and other wil be a very little minorities

And we will have a war of some kind between us and the Islamic world-killing thousands of innocent on both side

I do hope I'm wrong.

Markus


Sadly, it's the inevitable clash of civilizations rearing it's head again.There is no avoiding it, the weaker tolerance oriented crowd has had their way and all it has done is get a lot of innocent people killed while these savages go from the "JV" team as Dear Leader put it to a force that can and will kill.Over time if unchecked, they could grown even more powerful esp with support from a nuclear iran.Time for action is now, game changes once Iran has nukes, they get a seat at the big boy table and options are even more limited.

[mapuc]

Sadly, it's the inevitable clash of civilizations rearing it's head again.There is no avoiding it, the weaker tolerance oriented crowd has had their way and all it has done is get a lot of innocent people killed while these savages go from the "JV" team as Dear Leader put it to a force that can and will kill.Over time if unchecked, they could grown even more powerful esp with support from a nuclear iran.Time for action is now, game changes once Iran has nukes, they get a seat at the big boy table and options are even more limited.

It is you and other I fear and of course these radical Islamic groups

I do not fear a moderate Muslim

There are perhaps between 50-150.000 radical Muslim In the world

But you and other are "building" a hate and fear to wards 1.2 billion Muslims

We do NOT need that-

If you said we should go into full war against these radical religious groups then I would support you 110 % but not in this "war against every Muslim"-crusade.

Markus

[Rockstar]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is a perfect example of what the people who blew up and shot up Paris want people to think and say.

Bravo Bubbles for providing a perfect demonstration. :up:


Thats silly, What they expect people to do or say is either die or convert. They do on the other hand fear what Bubbles said. Just look at what it takes for a king to rule over there.

[u crank]

Plenty human, just not weak.

The people that you so callously dismiss in 'Beirut, Afghanistan etc' are victims of terrorism plain and simple. Your prejudiced is so obvious. Why beat around the bush? Tell us exactly what you mean.

[Bubblehead1980]

It is you and other I fear and of course these radical Islamic groups

I do not fear a moderate Muslim

There are perhaps between 50-150.000 radical Muslim In the world

But you and other are "building" a hate and fear to wards 1.2 billion Muslims

We do NOT need that-

If you said we should go into full war against these radical religious groups then I would support you 110 % but not in this "war against every Muslim"-crusade.

Markus

Radicals in the sense they openly speak their ideology and plan or have and will act on it.Far more are the types who danced in the streets after 9/11 etc While they are not terrorists themselves, many many more are complicit in their support of jihad.Really, if this was not true radical islam would not be so prevalent.Islam a religion of conquest among other things, that may not be "PC" but it is the truth, look at history.

Of course I am talking an all out war against radicals who actually murder etc and ZERO tolerance for those who support them by overt acts or by simply doing nothing.The non violent part of the war is to stop any and all immigration from muslim countries, no refugees etc.Those here who are not citizens must go back, period, no exceptions. Europe needs to do the same.Europe has a tougher problem because many countries like UK and France have screwed around allow these people to invade legally and gain toeholds there with significant percentage of population. Time to get tough and not play around anymore.

Not all 1.2 billion of them are radical, a large portion are good people, a small portion actually carries out overt acts of terror, while the majority in the middle between the two seem to support the jihad, hate of israel etc in spirit or things would change from within.

[u crank]

Thats silly, What they expect people to do or say is either die or convert.

Nonsense. Killing 127 people in Paris is not going to make France or Europe convert. Last time I checked there were 742.5 million people in Europe. Not going to happen.

[Rockstar]

You are most likely correct this will not get Europe to convert. So they will continue to kill without remorse in the name of their god. To them you are an infidel, a non believer, you are lower than whale poop. They will if given the opportunity end your life too or die trying thinking they have done their god a service. Unless of course you convert.

[Torplexed]

Unless of course you convert.

Yeah. And make sure you convert to the "correct" flavor of Islam or you still have a target on your back. :doh:

[u crank]

You are most likely correct this will not get Europe to convert. So they will continue to kill without remorse in the name of their god. To them you are an infidel, a non believer, you are lower than whale poop. They will if given the opportunity end your life too or die trying thinking they have done their god a service. Unless of course you convert.

You are most likely correct as well. Why do they hate us?

https://youtu.be/mL5XXcDN3n0

I find what Mr. Ratigan says quite interesting.

[Mittelwaechter]

We reap what we sow.

First, let me tell you I'm sorry for all those people, killed by intentions "to defend high values" - no matter who tells to defend them.
We mourn for those French civilians, but I never see any misery for the Syrian, Pakistani, Somali, Iraqi, Afghani and and and civilians our uniformed terrorists sentence to death.

All this murder, all this terror, all this suffering and starving, all this war and pain around the globe is just a money game, some privileged clique is playing. Why do we let it happen?
We entitle them, justify their deeds and support their misanthropic, life destroying command. What's wrong with us? Are we some stupid morons?

We talk about religious extremists causing the global terror. True! But they are our terrorists, our breed.

Our capitalist economic system - nothing else but an other religion - is dependant on growth. Economic growth is what's most important, I heared my chancellor say. It's not peace or human rights or fairness - growth it is. We steadily need more ressources, more cheap labour, unsatisfied sales markets, lucrative investment opportunities and easily motivated soldiers.

Where will Western Europe find it? The North, West and South are taken. The south-eastern growing path has already been bloodily plastered in the 90's.
The East is on our wishlist - Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus. The Nazis were seeking new Lebensraum (living space) in the east - today we seek new growing space. History repeating.

The crux: we are dependent on Russian energy delivery. Russia covers ~ 30% of the West-European energy demand, with some countries like Poland, Latvia or Finland to 100% dependent on their gas and/or oil.
This situation may be peace saving, but it is also growth obstructive. What again was the most important?

We want to reduce our Russian dependence by installing a pipeline from Qatar and Saudi Arabia through Syria into Turkey - connected to Europe.
It would make an armed encounter with Russia possible and profitable, without a freezing caboose through the winter season.
Assad - as Putin's mate - doesn't want to permit the pipeline - so he changed into a bloody despot, a butcher, a new Hitler.
Our media is doing its job - to control our perception, to create our reality and subsequently our motivation to attack.

And that's why Qatar and Saudi Arabia are so willingly interested in democratic circumstances in Syria, supporting the opposition: they invest into new sales markets in Europe.
The low oil price is additionally a countermeasure to the US fracking, that is only profitable with high oil prices. One swatter - two flies.

The ruling class of the USA wants to keep its dominance over Europe and some rest of the world, to prolong the American Way of Life - the cheap way of living on the back of the others.
They promote a passage of arms between Western (NATO) Europe and Russia. Ukraine is accordingly the matching theatre of interest, with supported regime change and credits and weapons delivery.
Profitable weapons sales and credits for the partners, after the war a rebuildable Europe and a new Marshall-plan, anyone?
It was the base for the US dominance in the 20th century and why should it malfunction in the 21st century? Maybe they should engage in Syria too? Oh - wait - they do. This goes well with teasing Iran and Putin too.

The "Friends of Syria" impose sanctions on the country for years now, to demoralize the people and turn them against Assad. It worked only with ~ 10% of the folks there, while ~ 80% still support Assad.
Today a few millions have fled and the numbers may have adapted up to a certain degree.
As usual the western community of shared values invests into this opposing group, by arming and training them to cause chaos in Syria. Assad has to leave - no matter what blood toll it takes.
The situation went again out of control, with the uprise of ISIS, fed by our arrogant way of thinking, we could sort the groups and keep them working in our interest.

With the richest gas fields ever found by Italian experts north of Egypt, Putin was forced to engage in Syria. The Russian Air Force makes short process with any kind of armed opposition, especially with the ISIS, but also with our supported toy boys on the ground. While the USA was bombimng some sand dunes to officially fight the ISIS, the allied Qatari and Saudi support enabled some major territorial gain, to enable at least a two states solution, just for the case Assad would have been able to stand the storm. Putin changed the game. Now we have switched over to destroy all kind of installations, to leave scorched earth for Assad.

Putin's intentions are economic - true - as he doesn't want to lose the European money paid for his energy. But he also realizes our intentions to grow into his sphere of interest, directly in his front yard.
All modernisation of his weapons is owed to the fear, our troops delivering violently this "freedom and democracy", to gain the values needed for our growth. It would result in a consequent next step, you know.
We station our troops already along his borders - to defend his imperialistic behaviour - our media says. But of course, of course! He's the aggressor, we are the good ones.
Imagine a Chinese engagement in the Mexican turmoil - to bring stability and peace to the stricken people. Some naval base and a missile defence screen right at the US border.
Damn, the exceptional Cowboys - this new masterrace - would be really aggressive, I guess.

Assume some people down there in Syria understand what's going on and they decide to fight back the puppetplayers behind the curtain. Watch them demoralize our people, fight and kill our civilians, just as we organize the death of their civilians at home.

Our western community of shared values is the most dangerous, best eqipped, most deadly and a democratically organized and legitimized terrorist. He is the real reason for the terror we see in our cities.
It is the echo of our call - and it will persist as long as we terrorize their families. It's an asymetric and pretty helpless answer and I do wonder, why there is just so little of it.

Mr. Obama signs the burning of witches every morning - and the drones deliver hellfire to incinerate them, together with thousands of innocent in the last few years.
A witch is found - over there, see! You're sure it is a witch? Well, this should be his cellphone position, but who cares? Fire!

Yeah, we are the good ones! We destabilize societies, forment the people, support riots, arm minorities to cause chaos, impose sanctions on uncooperative, unwilling nations resisting our wishes and attack by choice regardless of international laws. This law of nations has binding nature for all - except the USA.

And a cohort Europe is going along. The shared values are countable values, in Euros and Dollars. We need more and more of them, so let's rumble.
We run a war on these people - and we expect no casualties? I say - don't dish it out, if you can't take it.
We deliver endless terror, so we shall receive it.

Sorry again for all the victims - on our side as on theirs. But our side definitly deserves them. They are just the wrong individuals.

How long will we keep watching this global bale?
We expect the muslims to seperate religion and state? What about our evil merger of economic religion and state power - commonly called fascism?
Shouldn't we clean our house first?


Just a few thoughts - i'm not into a debate. Enjoy your own convictions.
Over and out.

[Buddahaid]

Thats silly, What they expect people to do or say is either die or convert. They do on the other hand fear what Bubbles said. Just look at what it takes for a king to rule over there.

True, but they are small. Let's keep them that way and in doing so make ourselves grander. It's the only way to really win and doing otherwise just fuels their agenda. I'm not advocating being weak, just smarter. :yep:

EDIT: I just realized that that argument was one I used to explain why I believed going after Saddam was a bad idea. It does still take a ruthless leader and look at the one we've reaped for our blinded by blood eyesight after 911. Go ahead, look harder.....

[Onkel Neal]

Yeah. And make sure you convert to the "correct" flavor of Islam or you still have a target on your back. :doh:

Exactly, because to these terrorists, decent Muslims are not Muslims in their eyes, because they do not join in the jihad, because they are complicit with the West. To the terrorists, the Al Qaeda and ISIS fanatics, the moderate Muslims are excommunicated. Takfir. This concept was first published in 1961 in a manifesto by Sayid Qutb. It's why you cannot lump all Muslims together, that would be ignoring reality

[Nippelspanner]

We reap what we sow...
Well written post, enjoyed it very much, with a grain of salt of course.

[Oberon]

Thats silly, What they expect people to do or say is either die or convert. They do on the other hand fear what Bubbles said. Just look at what it takes for a king to rule over there.

But they need to increase their convert rate if they hope to succeed against western firepower. What better way to do that than to make all Muslims in the west feel like the west has declared war on them? What better way to bring moderates to the cause than to make this a war on Islam rather than a war on radical Islam?
It's writing their propaganda for them. :nope:
There's 2 billion Muslims in the world, do we want to fight all of them?

[Oberon]

Of course I am talking an all out war against radicals who actually murder etc and ZERO tolerance for those who support them by overt acts or by simply doing nothing.

Backtracking a smidge from:

it's to time to get harsh, the defeat the cancer of Islam once and for all.This can be done, just takes the will.

So, are we fighting Muslims or not? :hmmm:

[ikalugin]

But they need to increase their convert rate if they hope to succeed against western firepower. What better way to do that than to make all Muslims in the west feel like the west has declared war on them? What better way to bring moderates to the cause than to make this a war on Islam rather than a war on radical Islam?
They dont have to fight western firepower. And if they do - western firepower is incapable of controling low tech society, because it is too precise and the society does not provide targeting data.

[Betonov]

Police firefight (not graphic)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwvBL2a3osU

[Rockstar]

You are most likely correct as well. Why do they hate us?

https://youtu.be/mL5XXcDN3n0

I find what Mr. Ratigan says quite interesting.

I dont doubt western influence has to some small degree had an effect on the true believer. But lets not forget that entire region has, since the time of muhammed's death, been swimming in tribal anarchy. IMO if in the last several centuries they havent been able to live in peace with their own relatives, in their own countries because of sectarian violence over who is the rightful heir to the throne. What in blues blazes would make me think they're going to live peace in mine? They have just brought with them their centuries old history and culture of violence.

France, Germany and other European countries have extended themselves beyond measure to provide opportunity for a better way of life and what has it gotten them? Why DO they still hate them?

[CaptainRamius]

Question: is this WWIII already?

Never know, countries are already air striking ISIS, this could turn into another Desert Storm, or worse.

EDIT: I just posted a thread talking about the Paris attacks. Oops :D

[CaptainRamius]

Not sure if anyone knows, but several Kalashnikovs were found in a SEAT near the suburbs. BBC says that some attackers might have gotten away.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34825080

[Eichhörnchen]

I heard on Radio4 this afternoon that it's quite possible a NATO intervention could be invoked under the Treaty terms.

[CaptainRamius]

I heard on Radio4 this afternoon that it's quite possible a NATO intervention could be invoked under the Treaty terms.

That'd be pretty serious then. Maybe a WW3 will happen...

[CaptainRamius]

I heard on Radio4 this afternoon that it's quite possible a NATO intervention could be invoked under the Treaty terms.

NATO has already technically intervened, using US air strikes and some troops. But you're quite right, maybe more NATO nations will become involved.

[u crank]

IMO if in the last several centuries they havent been able to live in peace with their own relatives, in their own countries because of sectarian violence over who is the rightful heir to the throne. What in blues blazes would make me think they're going to live peace in mine?

You'll get no argument here. The question is why are we, the West continually interfering in their affairs. The relationship between Western nations and Turkey, Syria, Saudi Arabia and extremist groups in Iraq and Syria is mind boggling. Who side are we on?

[CaptainRamius]

Police firefight (not graphic)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwvBL2a3osU

Wow, that's impressive. I'm suprised someone stuck around to videotape that. Or was it a news reporter?

[CaptainRamius]

It's pretty inevitable. NATO will do something.

[CaptainRamius]

My god. My profile pic looks horrible. Help!

[Tchocky]

But lets not forget that entire region has, since the time of muhammed's death, been swimming in tribal anarchy. IMO if in the last several centuries they havent been able to live in peace with their own relatives, in their own countries because of sectarian violence over who is the rightful heir to the throne.

Rubbish! Europe has been no different. The relative peace since 1945 is certainly an achievement, but it doesn't make us perfect.

What in blues blazes would make me think they're going to live peace in mine? They have just brought with them their centuries old history and culture of violence.That's trash. It's a lot more complicated.

[Oberon]

France is within its right to invoke Article 5, but as was pointed out repeatedly by Skybird back during the Ukraine crisis, Article 5 is vague in what it terms as 'assistance', for example the UK could send one Apache helicopter as assistance, or just term its ongoing mission in Iraq as assistance to the French forces. Turkey would probably state that it's already assisting by taking Syrian refugees or something like that, and the US is already, as we know, attacking targets in Syria and Iraq.

I think this might inspire a heavier involvement in Syria and Iraq but it's not going to change much of the situation on the ground because that's in the hands of the Russian/Syrian/Iranian/Iraqi forces who are actually doing the fighting on the ground, as well as the odd special forces unit from the US, UK or even France which is there unofficially.

I don't think there's too much that can be changed with the current situation without further destabilising an already destabilised region. :hmmm:

[Rockstar]

You'll get no argument here. The question is why are we, the West continually interfering in their affairs. The relationship between Western nations and Turkey, Syria, Saudi Arabia and extremist groups in Iraq and Syria is mind boggling. Who side are we on?

Pretty dang hard if ask me to establish any influence in a region where the norm is tribal anarchy, short periods of central government followed by more tribal anarchy. Frankly I sometimes think that all the west can do to establish any political will in a region filled with a violent sectarian society. Is by assisting one tribe or sect over the other. Even if west abandoned ship I'd wager big money they would hold the course and keep on keeping on killing each other off.

[Dowly]

Some window licker(s) thought it'd be funny to play with firecrackers near the spot where people go pay their respects to the victims. :nope:

https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/status/665953369010360320

[CaptainRamius]

Some window licker(s) thought it'd be funny to play with firecrackers near the spot where people go pay their respects to the victims. :nope:

https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/status/665953369010360320

Holy....

[CaptainRamius]

Some window licker(s) thought it'd be funny to play with firecrackers near the spot where people go pay their respects to the victims. :nope:

https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/status/665953369010360320

Who in their right mind would do that? :nope:

[ReallyDedPoet]

You'll get no argument here. The question is why are we, the West continually interfering in their affairs. The relationship between Western nations and Turkey, Syria, Saudi Arabia and extremist groups in Iraq and Syria is mind boggling. Who side are we on?


:sign_yeah:

[Oberon]

Pretty dang hard if ask me to establish any influence in a region where the norm is tribal anarchy, short periods of central government followed by more tribal anarchy. Frankly I sometimes think that all the west can do to establish any political will in a region filled with a violent sectarian society. Is by assisting one tribe or sect over the other. Even if west abandoned ship I'd wager big money they would hold the course and keep on keeping on killing each other off.

You're not wrong there. Unfortunately the only way that the states would be united would likely be under a Saladin type figure to lead them against a west who has declared war on Islam, or perhaps an empire forged in blood and suppression. At the moment though, the two big powers in the region are using proxy wars to improve their power over the Middle East, a bit like the way that the US and USSR fought against each other in the Cold War, by funding the people who are attacking your enemy.
In short, the only way to unify the region would be in war against us if we did some of the things that the reactionaries in the west want us to do. :doh:

[CaptainRamius]

:sign_yeah:

I'd ask: Who's side are they on? The Middle East nations are constantly changing
..........

[Oberon]

I'd ask: Who's side are they on? The Middle East nations are constantly changing
..........

Well, the borders are pretty poorly thought out.
That was our bad, sorry about that. :oops:

[CaptainRamius]

Well, the borders are pretty poorly thought out.
That was our bad, sorry about that. :oops:

Not so much the US's fault as it is the Middle East, them and their extremists are tearing the world apart.

[CaptainRamius]

Well, the borders are pretty poorly thought out.
That was our bad, sorry about that. :oops:

And just FYI, I'm American too

[u crank]

I'd ask: Who's side are they on? The Middle East nations are constantly changing
..........

Not so much the US's fault as it is the Middle East, them and their extremists are tearing the world apart.

They usually change sides when they get invaded or propped up by Western States. Yea it is to some extent our fault.

[CaptainRamius]

They usually change sides when they get invaded or propped up by Western States. Yea it is to some extent our fault.

I guess. :shifty:

[CaptainRamius]

You're not wrong there. Unfortunately the only way that the states would be united would likely be under a Saladin type figure to lead them against a west who has declared war on Islam, or perhaps an empire forged in blood and suppression. At the moment though, the two big powers in the region are using proxy wars to improve their power over the Middle East, a bit like the way that the US and USSR fought against each other in the Cold War, by funding the people who are attacking your enemy.
In short, the only way to unify the region would be in war against us if we did some of the things that the reactionaries in the west want us to do. :doh:

I agree with him. The nations in the Middle East seem extra hard to establish proper governments in, especially Syria and other areas where ISIS and other extremist groups are present.

[mapuc]

I heard on Radio4 this afternoon that it's quite possible a NATO intervention could be invoked under the Treaty terms.

Can you tell me more about this ?

´cause I have heard some say the same on Danish TV

Something about chapter 5 or what it is called.

Markus

[u crank]

Pretty dang hard if ask me to establish any influence in a region where the norm is tribal anarchy, short periods of central government followed by more tribal anarchy.

Again I would ask the question why? A bigger question is are we helping or making it worse?

Frankly I sometimes think that all the west can do to establish any political will in a region filled with a violent sectarian society. Is by assisting one tribe or sect over the other.

And which side? Right now we seem to be playing both sides against the middle. Tell me is it getting better?

[Oberon]

And just FYI, I'm American too

I'm not, I'm British...and yeah, we did kind of have a part in this :03::
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement

[mapuc]

A Danish Politician Søren Espersen(Member of the Danish Peoples party) said earlier today

(have used google translate)

"The international coalition that is fighting against the Islamic state (IS) should begin to bomb civilian targets - also places where there are women and children. That is the message from the Danish People's Party foreign affairs spokesman Soeren Espersen, after Friday's attacks in Paris, which killed at least 129 people. - We bombs not where there are civilians, but we need to start. IS, is well cover behind women and children in villages and towns, and they know that we as gentlemen do not bomb civilians.. It must have an end, he says."

Markus

[Tchocky]

A Danish Politician Søren Espersen(Member of the Danish Peoples party) said earlier today

(have used google translate)

"The international coalition that is fighting against the Islamic state (IS) should begin to bomb civilian targets - also places where there are women and children. That is the message from the Danish People's Party foreign affairs spokesman Soeren Espersen, after Friday's attacks in Paris, which killed at least 129 people. - We bombs not where there are civilians, but we need to start. IS, is well cover behind women and children in villages and towns, and they know that we as gentlemen do not bomb civilians.. It must have an end, he says."

Markus


100% guaranteed to blow up in our faces.

In every possible sense.

[mapuc]

100% guaranteed to blow up in our faces.

In every possible sense.

110 % true

Among those friends who have linked to this I have said

We shall not drag us self to that level, we shall fight ISIS and other radical religious groups by any mean, but not by targeting civilians as primary targets to get our secondary targets-which are the terrorist.

[Oberon]

Nice moment in the French assembly, after observing a minutes silence for the fallen, there was a spontaneous rendition of the national anthem.

https://www.facebook.com/bbcnews/videos/10152545792982217/

It takes more than some nutjobs with guns and explosives to break the French spirit, many better at the act of war have tried and failed. Even our Empire, which was the largest in the world, whilst we could beat the French on the battlefield (with difficulty) we could never break their spirit.

Vive la France. :salute:

[Dowly]

Nice moment in the French assembly, after observing a minutes silence for the fallen, there was a spontaneous rendition of the national anthem.

https://www.facebook.com/bbcnews/videos/10152545792982217/

It takes more than some nutjobs with guns and explosives to break the French spirit, many better at the act of war have tried and failed. Even our Empire, which was the largest in the world, whilst we could beat the French on the battlefield (with difficulty) we could never break their spirit.

Vive la France. :salute:
Think that was after the Charlie Hebdo attack? Posted January 13.

[mapuc]

According to the Danish news

French Air force has dropped 20 bombs over ISIS headquarter in Syria.

Markus

[Oberon]

Think that was after the Charlie Hebdo attack? Posted January 13.

Oh...balls...whoops...

My point still stands though.


In other news, French aircraft have hit targets in Raqqa, a Syrian city which is a Daesh stronghold.

[Betonov]

The Foreign legion should play a major role now.

They're well trained and well armed and they're not a national army to completely demoralize the civilian population when caskets start coming back.
Basically, they're mercs with loyalty.

http://i.imgur.com/5uApcik.jpg

[Oberon]

Nails Mercs too, not a force I'd like to run up against.

[eddie]

The President of France has said they won't put troops on the ground because they will be perceived as occupiers. Which makes any troops from the west as being the same thing. So when I read that some Iraqi's say that the US doesn't have the stomach for another war, or won't get involved in a ground war, I say to that Iraqi, grow a pair and fight your own war for your own country.

[Stealhead]

The Foreign legion should play a major role now.

They're well trained and well armed and they're not a national army to completely demoralize the civilian population when caskets start coming back.
Basically, they're mercs with loyalty.

http://i.imgur.com/5uApcik.jpg



Not 100% true roughly 60% of the Foreign Legion are native Frenchmen at one time they out of tradition would claim Belgian nationality or Swiss nationality. All officers must be French nationals as well though they have earned French citizenship (or re-earned). They are about equal with the typical US Marine or Army infantry and the REP is on par with any US or British airborne unit. Id argue that they are not truly mercenaries as they are rewarded with French citizenship after a time span of service additionally the contract is binding so they cant legally end the contract at anytime which a mercenary can. Of that 7,000 some odd members most are not combatants they are things like supply clerks and mechanics. We had a German mechanic that worked for my unit he had done a five year term in FFL in the 90's after he left the German Army he was a mechanic in the FFL spent alot of time in Bosnia.

[CaptainRamius]

According to the Danish news

French Air force has dropped 20 bombs over ISIS headquarter in Syria.

Markus

That's nothing compared to the amount of US air strikes.

[CaptainRamius]

See, if the US used their Seal teams and Delta Force (don't forget the Rangers), this would be over quick. Maybe. :D

[Nippelspanner]

See, if the US used their Seal teams and Delta Force (don't forget the Rangers), this would be over quick. Maybe. :D
Yeah.
Right.
Because a squadron of Deltas or Seals will just... go there and shoot them dead and that's it, freedom for everyone!
Long live the military channel, I guess. :shifty:

If the US wanted to destroy the IS, it would have done so by now.
Finding columns of armed Toyota pick-ups rolling down the roads for miles and miles, packed with IS fighters isn't exactly the hardest thing to do when you have next to unlimited resources to do so.
Be it drones, satellites, HUMINT, SIGINT, PRETTYMUCHANYINT... they don't even hide like others, they are in plain sight.

However, as long as they may serve a purpose... why bomb them to bits?

[CaptainRamius]

Yeah.
Right.
Because a squadron of Deltas or Seals will just... go there and shoot them dead and that's it, freedom for everyone!
Long live the military channel, I guess. :shifty:

If the US wanted to destroy the IS, it would have done so by now.
Finding columns of armed Toyota pick-ups rolling down the roads for miles and miles, packed with IS fighters isn't exactly the hardest thing to do when you have next to unlimited resources to do so.
Be it drones, satellites, HUMINT, SIGINT, PRETTYMUCHANYINT... they don't even hide like others, they are in plain sight.

However, as long as they may serve a purpose... why bomb them to bits?
Ok, sorry....:/\\!!
I guess Special Forces wouldn't be the way to go, but if the US had taken care of the extremist problem years ago, we would have destroyed ISIS by now. And convoys aren't that easy to take care of. If you place mines down, you cannot use that road anymore. Those convoys are definitely going to be well armed, too.

[CaptainRamius]

Just wondering, is the manhunt is Paris still going on?

[CaptainRamius]

France once again is having to deal with a cowardly attack on it's citizens. At least 100 people were killed in a Paris concert hall. In addition, there were attacks at a restaurant, soccer stadium and a shopping mall. A state of emergency has been declared. The attacks were coordinated as they happened within minutes of each other.

French president Francois Hollande was in attendance at the Soccer match between France and Germany but was thankfully unharmed

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/paris-rocked-by-explosions-and-shootouts-leaving-dozens-dead/2015/11/13/133f5bc2-8a50-11e5-bd91-d385b244482f_story.html


In August of this year, an attack on a train was thwarted by 2 American service men, a Briton and another individual.


There was another attack at publishing house and magazine,Charlie Hebdo Jan 7, 2015 in which 12 were killed


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710883




Thoughts and prayers go out to France and it's citizens .


Oh, and I love that first line. Describes it perfectly.

[Aktungbby]

Not 100% true roughly 60% of the Foreign Legion are native Frenchmen at one time they out of tradition would claim Belgian nationality or Swiss nationality. All officers must be French nationals as well though they have earned French citizenship (or re-earned). They are about equal with the typical US Marine or Army infantry and the REP is on par with any US or British airborne unit. Id argue that they are not truly mercenaries as they are rewarded with French citizenship after a time span of service additionally the contract is binding so they cant legally end the contract at anytime which a mercenary can. Of that 7,000 some odd members most are not combatants they are things like supply clerks and mechanics. We had a German mechanic that worked for my unit he had done a five year term in FFL in the 90's after he left the German Army he was a mechanic in the FFL spent alot of time in Bosnia.of some recent interest: http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2014/12/damascus_man_who_deserted_army.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2014/12/damascus_man_who_deserted_army.html) One would think if he agreed to serve again, his enhanced skill would be valuable given the political climate of today... as with the assimilated Flying Tigers and Escadrille Lafayette Americans of past wars.

[CaptainRamius]

I hope that this whole problem gets solved quickly. First, Osama bin Laden comes along. That's the start of this. Islamic extremists attack the US (9/11) and Osama is assassinated by SEAL team 6. Then about a years pause. The Islamic Extremists get all angry again and attempt to take terrain. IS is formed. If we had actually attacked the extremists (ISIS) when they were a small group we wouldn't have had this problem.

[Betonov]

Not 100% true roughly 60% of the Foreign Legion are native Frenchmen at one time they out of tradition would claim Belgian nationality or Swiss nationality. All officers must be French nationals as well though they have earned French citizenship (or re-earned). They are about equal with the typical US Marine or Army infantry and the REP is on par with any US or British airborne unit. Id argue that they are not truly mercenaries as they are rewarded with French citizenship after a time span of service additionally the contract is binding so they cant legally end the contract at anytime which a mercenary can. Of that 7,000 some odd members most are not combatants they are things like supply clerks and mechanics. We had a German mechanic that worked for my unit he had done a five year term in FFL in the 90's after he left the German Army he was a mechanic in the FFL spent alot of time in Bosnia.

I see.
They're still badass right and good for the job

[CaptainRamius]

I see.
They're still badass right and good for the job

:agree:

[Commander Wallace]

Oh, and I love that first line. Describes it perfectly.


I think that's pretty much how everyone feels about it except the terrorists themselves.

Good, insightful and knowledgeable posts by everyone .


In further developments.

" quote " on Monday a French official named Abdelhamid Abaaoud, a Belgian man, as one of the masterminds behind Friday’s massacre, who was also implicated in the foiled attack on the high-speed Thalys train between Brussels and Paris in August, which was stopped when three American passengers wrestled the gunman to the ground. He is believed to be in Syria.

http://time.com/4114167/paris-attacks-suspects/

[CaptainRamius]

I think that's pretty much how everyone feels about it except the terrorists themselves.

Good, insightful and knowledgeable posts by everyone .


In further developments.

" quote " on Monday a French official named Abdelhamid Abaaoud, a Belgian man, as one of the masterminds behind Friday’s massacre, who was also implicated in the foiled attack on the high-speed Thalys train between Brussels and Paris in August, which was stopped when three American passengers wrestled the gunman to the ground. He is believed to be in Syria.

http://time.com/4114167/paris-attacks-suspects/
That guy! He escaped? I had no idea, I thought the authorities took care of him!

[Oberon]

That guy! He escaped? I had no idea, I thought the authorities took care of him!

He didn't escape, it's a different guy. He came up with the idea for the chap with the AK in the train, but the chap with the AK in the train got taken down by the American, British and French passengers.
He also came up with the idea for this attack, but as it is for all of these masterminds, he doesn't actually get involved with doing the attack but leaves that to the easily martyred.
One person the French are looking for, is Brussels born Salah Abdeslam who was one of the men involved in carrying out the attacks, he was originally stopped by police on the French/Belgium border not that long after the attacks had finished, but since they didn't realise at the time that he was a person of interest he was let go again. Flemish and French police have carried out a number of raids in France and Belgium but have so far come up empty handed. The rest of the attackers, as so far as can be made out, are dead.
There has been a passport found which was from someone who allegedly crossed into Greece from Turkey as a migrant/refugee but it is unconfirmed whether this was a real or false passport as there are plenty of fakes going around.
So far 23 people have been arrested and dozens of weapons seized, including AK47s and RPGs, more than a hundred people are under house arrest at this time. Much of the police investigation is focusing around the Belgian borough of Sint-Jans-Molenbeek (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/15/molenbeek-the-brussels-borough-in-the-spotlight-after-paris-attacks) which has been a hotspot for jihadists. If anywhere deserves to have the infamous 'no-go area' attached to it, it is apparently Molenbeek.
Hopefully such hot spots will be broken up by Flemish authorities in the wake of this attack, although I must confess that I have my doubts about the capabilities of the Belgian police. Hopefully they will get multi-national assistance, particularly from the French and Dutch. :yep:

[Betonov]

A lot of performers cancelled tours or shows in Europe, most notably U2.
I can't decide if it's a smart or cowardly move.
It's easy to diss performers but it's also (as we sayhere) easy to dig sand with someone elses penis, the group will have excellent security but the crowds will be vulnerable.

[Sailor Steve]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Paris%20Lights_zps0funbzxw.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/SailorSteve/media/Paris%20Lights_zps0funbzxw.jpg.html)

[Commander Wallace]

A lot of performers cancelled tours or shows in Europe, most notably U2.
I can't decide if it's a smart or cowardly move.
It's easy to diss performers but it's also (as we sayhere) easy to dig sand with someone elses penis, the group will have excellent security but the crowds will be vulnerable.

I don't think it's a cowardly move. As you said, the crowds and fans may well be vulnerable. Their safety and well being should be the first priority.

On the other hand, terrorism is just as much psychological in addition to the physical aspects of it. If terrorists can stop people from engaging in day to day activities and living life and enjoying cultural events, then they win regardless of whether they physically harm people as they did in France on Friday night.

[Betonov]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I found a great NSFW picture that really sums it up, I'll try to shop the F word out and post it.

[Betonov]

Ugh, my photoshoping skills belong in Den Haag.
Better than an infraction I suppose :)

http://i.imgur.com/Si4P1Jg.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Paris attacks: 'France will destroy IS' - Hollande

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34836439

[Oberon]

What would the world look like if we defeated Isis?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/16/isis-military-france-paris-attacks-nato-article-5

[Oberon]

John Oliver
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_TdtyfXqA8 :up:

Advisory: Contains adult language.

[Betonov]

http://oneknifekitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/croquembouche/1412056961_640_3333055334913953231.jpeg

French Freedom tower :rotfl2:

God, I've seen this things being made, it's sugar wrapped in sugar, glued together with sugar and see that netting all over it, that's sugar spun into string.

[Catfish]

Freedom fries anyone?

(anyone remembers?:03:)

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Think that was after the Charlie Hebdo attack? Posted January 13.Either it happened again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhhT2nCf388) or someone is recycling material.

[Dowly]

Either it happened again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhhT2nCf388) or someone is recycling material.
That's from earlier today.

[mapuc]

If its true what a Danish news paper just have published, these terrorist wasn't some amateur.

The policemens "'Ramses shield' " they had with them saved some of the policemens life.

From the article

(google translate)

"A thin but impenetrable shield passed late Friday night its baptism of fire when French security forces from the elite BRI (Brigade de Recherche et d'Intervention) raided the venue Bataclan in Paris to bring the terrorists' serial murders of the trapped hostages to an end. When 18 members of BRI advancing, pounding perpetrators them with automatic rifles of the Kalashnikov brand before they blew himself and several hostages in the air with suicide vests. The French TV station iTELE could Monday night show the 'Ramses shield' by the security forces shielded behind in their advance as a sinister testimony to the ferocity of the shootings at the Bataclan. "

Can not take copy of picture, due to-forgot the word.

Markus

[Dowly]

^
http://media.20minutes.fr/2015/bouclier.JPG

[mapuc]

^
http://media.20minutes.fr/2015/bouclier.JPG


Thank you Dowly

I take back this sentence

"these terrorist wasn't some amateur"
if you look at the spread of the holes, it seems that the terrorists have shot at police with their eyes closed.

Markus

[Stealhead]

^
http://media.20minutes.fr/2015/bouclier.JPG


Those are 7.62x39mm strikes judging from pictures US body armor of similar make up struck by the same.

If the body armor ceramic plates can take several AK rounds I bet that that shield can take a good deal more strikes.

[Stealhead]

Thank you Dowly

I take back this sentence

"these terrorist wasn't some amateur"
if you look at the spread of the holes, it seems that the terrorists have shot at police with their eyes closed.

Markus

I disagree there is some very good grouping at the center mass point. Consider also that even trained shooters average around 33% accuracy in combat while the typical sniper is around 75% of rounds fired hitting. They knew what they where doing. If they where firing in automatic burts those are very good groupings thats every burst hitting. Look like automatic fire strikes judging by the climb to one side.

[Oberon]

AKs aren't exactly known for their accuracy... :hmmm:

[Nippelspanner]

Those convoys are definitely going to be well armed, too.
You can't kill what you can't see.
And how are these convoys well armed?
We are talking about unarmored pickups, loaded with militias that have some 12.7mm machine guns, RPGs and maybe some MANPADS at best.

Nothing any western plane needs to worry about.

As I said. If the US (or any western nation actually) really wanted to crush IS, it would have happened already.

[Stealhead]

AKs aren't exactly known for their accuracy... :hmmm:

Who told you that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J13BFhQiUwo
Or a possible misinterpreted sarcastic statement by you?

In my opinion a firearm is as effective as the person firing it if they are really skilled they'll be pretty darn effective with any weapon they pick up and very effective with firearm they are highly familiar with.
Kind of a different can of worms when your primary goal was what these ISIS scum did not exactly a target that can defend itself. Still I suspect that they where likely fairly familiar with the weapons that they used.

[Onkel Neal]

You can't kill what you can't see.
And how are these convoys well armed?
We are talking about unarmored pickups, loaded with militias that have some 12.7mm machine guns, RPGs and maybe some MANPADS at best.

Nothing any western plane needs to worry about.

As I said. If the US (or any western nation actually) really wanted to crush IS, it would have happened already.

Exactly, this is simply a matter of mustering the will to assemble a multi-national coalition and doing it, while at the same time, cleaning out the enclaves of radicals inside the country. Until then, the people of the Western countries will have to run like deer evry time they hear a pop or bang. There will be more of these attacks, they are just getting started. You can bet ISIS planners have sent thousands of men in as refugees.

[ReallyDedPoet]

As I said. If the US (or any western nation actually) really wanted to crush IS, it would have happened already.

I am not so sure that would happen, or if they did then some other organization would take it's place. So it will perpetuate itself. ISIS was born mainly out of what happened in IRAQ. At least it started there and eventually moved to Syria. Remember Bush claiming victory then, the war really had only started .....

Those who fund-support the terrorist groups need to be stopped, that is the key. And again no easy feat.

[Oberon]

Who told you that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J13BFhQiUwo
Or a possible misinterpreted sarcastic statement by you?

In my opinion a firearm is as effective as the person firing it if they are really skilled they'll be pretty darn effective with any weapon they pick up and very effective with firearm they are highly familiar with.
Kind of a different can of worms when your primary goal was what these ISIS scum did not exactly a target that can defend itself. Still I suspect that they where likely fairly familiar with the weapons that they used.

No misinterpretation, I was always under the impression that AKs sacrificed accuracy for reliability, seems I was wrong.
Also, I guess you have to factor in that the area in which they were firing was quite limited in space, so no matter what direction you sprayed in you were bound to hit someone.

[August]

No misinterpretation, I was always under the impression that AKs sacrificed accuracy for reliability, seems I was wrong

Not exactly wrong. By accuracy they mean it's "maximum effective range" is about 100 meters less than the more accurate M16/M4 Up close the AK is accurate enough.

[Rockstar]

Again I would ask the question why? A bigger question is are we helping or making it worse?

They hate us because we're the Great Satan, unbelievers, ifidels, we could sit infront of the TV all day twiddling our thumbs and they would still hate us. It sucks but thats the way it is I guess. Read their charter, it is mostly quotes from the koran as their motivation to kill you. They also have aims of establishing an Islamic State. That might be the problem with some in the west. Which is why we're seeing a bit of friction.

And which side? Right now we seem to be playing both sides against the middle. Tell me is it getting better?

Look on the brightside we do have something in common with ISIL. We both support the overthrow of the current Syrian government. Its getting better.

[Betonov]

http://i.imgur.com/DW8TfTh.jpg

[Catfish]

^ :rotfl2:

When i see the picture of those black-clothed nuts i think we urgently need a Monty Pythons piece about it :03:

[Betonov]

And then get anonymous to hack their channels and play the sketches over and over and over and over.

Every time they'll try to recruit someone or tell the world about their exploits and murders, a video of isis fighters running from a man in a cardboard jet and the Benny Hill theme playing.

[u crank]

They hate us because we're the Great Satan, unbelievers, ifidels,

That is part of it for sure. They also hate us because we've been in their countries exploiting them for hundreds of years. Where do they get their weapons? Again, both sides against the middle.

Look on the brightside we do have something in common with ISIL. We both support the overthrow of the current Syrian government.

How's that working out? Seems to me we did the same thing in Iraq. Yep turned out good. There will soon be no countries left to destroy.

Its getting better.

The hole we are digging is getting deeper.

[Commander Wallace]

Another related news story is that Russia has confirmed that a bomb brought down their aircraft over the Sinai last week.

Quote : At a meeting with President Vladimir V. Putin, Federal Security Service head Alexander Bortnikov said that traces of explosives found in the plane’s wreckage indicated that an improvised explosive device had been detonated on board.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/russia-confirms-sinai-crash-was-the-work-of-terrorists/2015/11/17/496286f4-8d05-11e5-ae1f-af46b7df8483_story.html

Isis has claimed responsibility but that doesn't make it so until it's investigated and confirmed. What is true however is that Russia and France have both suffered devastating loses to their non military people in as many weeks from terrorism. If countries of Europe like Russia and France and others understand that not only do they share a common enemy but perhaps a common goal and work together, I don't think there is a much they couldn't do. Maybe these episodes of terrorism will be enough to unify and mobilize the international community. As U crank and others pointed out though, this may well just be treating the symptoms and not the root cause .

What does everyone else think ?

[CaptainRamius]

Update: Anonumyous has declared "war" on ISIS
They say that ISIS should expect heavy cyberattacks, and that they can't get away with the atttacks.
I say: Spot on!

[Alex]

Look on the brightside we do have something in common with ISIL. We both support the overthrow of the current Syrian government. Its getting better.

Where do they get their weapons?

What does everyone else think ?

Syria was mentioned earlier, so let's look at it from above, the fair way, taking a look at the situation from a broad point of view, not from any country in particular.

1. NATO is dropping bombs on ISIS for one year now. :salute:

2. NATO is the biggest largest powerful military force in the whole world. And I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
In the whole world, yes, the greatest and most powerful one is waging war on ISIS, for 1 year now ! :yeah:

3. And for one year, that ISIS thingy became stronger and stronger. :hmmm:

So NATO, who are you fooling, eh ? Do you think us to be donkeys ? :hmm2:


Putin waited for 1 year. And then he did 2 things.
He got an official request of the syrian government, a request for assistance. The government of Syria calling on Russia for assistance, he went to the russian parliament, and the russian parliament gave him authority to respond and accept, and then to intervene.

The West didn't do that. Britain didn't do that. France didn't do that.
And so, Russia entered through the front door, while they went through the back door.

In a matter of weeks, Russia has already achieved more than NATO was able to achieve in one year. :doh:

The West keeps making Russia look like the Devil, doing its best to isolate it. The russian air force has been waging strikes for some weeks now, was able to come on the stage and achieve a spectacular victory, in the full daylight of History, making NATO look like a bunch of fools. They can't allow that to happen. So what will they have to do ? They'll have to respond, they'll have to up the ante, escalating the conflict, finding some excuse to intervene militarily to respond to the russian intervention.

And when NATO ups the ante, Russia will come back, and up the ante again, because Russia is saying : "we're not afraid of you".

Whose interests ISIS is really fighting for, who created it, and what is it going to lead to in the end ?
Take your own conclusions from that.

[Rockstar]

Where do the weapons come from? Well, Tony Cartalucci at New Eastern Outlook seems to have an opinion about that.

http://journal-neo.org/2015/06/09/logistics-101-where-does-isis-get-its-guns/


He was also was wondering where all those brand new Toyota trucks we see them riding around in came from too.

http://journal-neo.org/2015/10/09/the-mystery-of-isis-toyota-army-solved/

[u crank]

He got an official request of the syrian government, a request for assistance. The government of Syria calling on Russia for assistance, he went to the russian parliament, and the russian parliament gave him authority to respond and accept, and then to intervene.

The West didn't do that. Britain didn't do that. France didn't do that.
And so, Russia entered through the front door, while they went through the back door.

That's kinda funny since Russia has been Syria's ally for over 50 years. I don't think you have to be told that the West is trying to get rid of Assad. And the Russians will only keep him until they get what they want. My guess is he'll have an 'accident'. And Russia will have an increased military presence in the region.

The russian air force has been waging strikes for some weeks now, was able to come on the stage and achieve a spectacular victory, in the full daylight of History, making NATO look like a bunch of fools.

Care to elaborate?

Care to comment on the fact that the Russians are targeting rebel groups fighting against Assad and not ISIS only?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/07/russia-airstrikes-syria-not-targetting-isis

http://globalnews.ca/news/2317192/russian-airstrikes-in-syria-kill-more-civilians-than-militants-according-to-activists/

But the month-old Russian bombardment has killed more civilians than it has IS militants, according to the main activist group tracking the conflict, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. Despite Russian boasts to be going after the extremists more ferociously than Americans have, the Observatory’s figures also suggest the air campaign waged by a U.S.-led coalition the past 13 months has killed IS members at a higher rate while harming civilians less.

The Observatory said it has so far confirmed 185 civilians killed in Russian strikes the past month – including 46 women and 48 children – while the toll among IS fighters was 131. The heaviest toll came among Syrian rebels not connected to IS, with 279 dead, the group said. In contrast, the U.S.-led air campaign has killed 3,726 IS members – an average of 252 a month, and 225 civilians – according to the Observatory’s statistics.

[mapuc]

I'm not a terrorist and I would rather shoot myself than hurt another person

If I was the leader of a terrorgroup and I saw the picture of a shield

I would say to some of my members. Find out which type of ammo that can penetrate this shield and what kind of weapon these ammo goes to.

I would do anything to get newer type of weapons.

And I would start to educate my soldier a little better.

Markus

[Stealhead]

No misinterpretation, I was always under the impression that AKs sacrificed accuracy for reliability, seems I was wrong.
Also, I guess you have to factor in that the area in which they were firing was quite limited in space, so no matter what direction you sprayed in you were bound to hit someone.

True and as August said other rifles are more accurate. The AK47 has a shorter barrel than the M16 and I believe shorter than the standard M4(14 inches). Of course an M4 will have less effective range than an M16 while due to the shorter barrel.

In its element the AK47 is a devastatingly effective weapon. Of course all combat rifles are a design compromise to some extent.

[mapuc]

Another question

France has asked other EU-members for assistance in the war against Daesh

Every other EU-countries has said yes to give military aid to France

Today on the Swedish online News paper aftonbladet.se

I could read the Swedish primeminister saying

We are not at war.

Is that true or is it more a "word-jigsaw"(don't know the real word for it)

´cause this is how I see it

Country A is attacked by country B. Country A asked country C and D for assistance, both country say yes, so country C and D have Indirectly decleared country B war.

Sweden as country-C, has by joined France country -A, declared war against Daesh country B

Markus

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

The russian air force has been waging strikes for some weeks now, was able to come on the stage and achieve a spectacular victory, in the full daylight of History, making NATO look like a bunch of fools.I wouldn't go that far. Yes, they most likely have archived many of their goals. I'm quite sure those are not same goals as the West has. Whatever the case this is far from victory.

Care to comment on the fact that the Russians are targeting rebel groups fighting against Assad and not ISIS only?Why not? Russia is just one actor with its spoon in geopolitical soup. Its primary intrest (I believe) is to guarantee access to Mediterranean. Its in their best interests to have relatively stable and friendly regime regime in Syria.

Any rebel group - ISIS, Al Qaida, Free Syrian Army et. al. - is bad thing. As first step cleaning the house from lesser troubles makes sense as it releases resources to fight with more dangerous foe. As NATO, Peshmerga, Iraqis et. al. keep ISIS occupied there is no real urgency in that front. They can be dealt with later when time is right.

@Mapuc, I believe it when I see it. Right now its politically impossible to say "No." to France's request. Saying "Yes!" however does not mean that anything will follow. For example Finnish law restricts our govermenets possibilities to peacekeeping (not peacemaking or warfare), intelligence and other such support measures.

[u crank]

Why not? Russia is just one actor with its spoon in geopolitical soup.

Why not. It's a big bowl.

Its in their best interests to have relatively stable and friendly regime regime in Syria.

I'm afraid the stable part is a ship that has sailed. It ain't comin' back. Another Mid East country that will never be the same.

Any rebel group - ISIS, Al Qaida, Free Syrian Army et. al. - is bad thing. As first step cleaning the house from lesser troubles makes sense as it releases resources to fight with more dangerous foe. As NATO, Peshmerga, Iraqis et. al. keep ISIS occupied there is no real urgency in that front. They can be dealt with later when time is right.

Oh yea, that appears to be the plan. And they have no qualms about bombing the crap out of Syrian civilians who happen to support the rebels.

[mapuc]

Free Syrian Army can they be called radical ?

From what I understand they are fighting for a democratically Syria with free election etc

Markus

[Torplexed]

Update: Anonumyous has declared "war" on ISIS
They say that ISIS should expect heavy cyberattacks, and that they can't get away with the atttacks.
I say: Spot on!

I'm hoping this will be more successful as their declared wars against Westboro Baptist Church, Scientology, the KKK, and Kayne West. None of who have exactly run up the white flag yet.

[Oberon]

Country A is attacked by country B. Country A asked country C and D for assistance, both country say yes, so country C and D have Indirectly decleared country B war.

Sweden as country-C, has by joined France country -A, declared war against Daesh country B

Markus

Sounds all very 1914... :haha:

http://41.media.tumblr.com/cb5fabe1f01eb1fe32e875273f51e029/tumblr_nko0htuxZw1u9bueto1_400.png

[Onkel Neal]

:har:

Wait, did you say Kanye West.... Hmmm... I may have to rethink my diplomatic stance

[Oberon]

The only way is West. :O:

Meanwhile, heavy gunfire has been heard during a police operation in the North Paris suburb of Saint Denis. With any luck they've found and bagged one of the fugitives from Friday.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34853657

Apparently two Air France aircraft were forced to divert and land due to 'bomb threats' as well, one in Halifax and one in Salt Lake City, both aircraft were bound for Paris. Sadly, I suspect some joker on twitter probably pulled that one, there's plenty of them about and in the aftermath of Fridays events every threat will be taken seriously. There's going to be a LOT of false alarms in the next few weeks. Hopefully they'll find who pulled the bomb scare and put them away.

[Kaptlt.Endrass]

Alright, I'm not here to vent. I did that enough. Rather, I'm here to analyze and bring to light what I think is going on with ISIS and these latest events in Paris.

First off, to all affected in those attacks, directly or not: God be with you, and if you lost a loved one, my condolences.

Now, here we go...(Jim, Steve, and all other moderators, you won't like me for the duration of this analysis)

First off, we need to look at the attacks as what they were: a mindless attack on the citizens of Paris, a scene of ass murder, and quite possibly an attempt to assassinate the premier of France. But, that said, what I think the REAL objective is...

So, open to everyone: now that ISIS has committed this act, what do you think the outlook on any Muslim in the EU will be? Friendly? Sympathetic?

I think not. Rather, as the US populous was post-9/11, you will be, quite frankly, pissed, enraged, etc... I will not be surprised when Muslims start being prosecuted, cut off, and/or worse. THIS IS WHAT ISIS WANTS!!!!!

If your average, peaceful Islamic person, who holds absolutely no malice towards the US or EU, is suddenly coming under fire because some young, hyped-up, brainwashed idiots that happen to have guns decide that shooting up your local pub is a great idea, well, to be honest, that leads to a bit of sourness.

I mean, it isn't his fault is it? He, again, is a peaceful Islamic follower trying to make a living in his niche in society. But sourness can breed anger. Anger breeds hatred. And suddenly, JACKPOT! ISIS now has a new host of people it can send to do its bidding. Meanwhile, us Americans and Europeans are going to continue prosecuting these people, unaware that we are simply adding fuel to the fire.

And for those that have had the thought of launching a concerted nuclear attack on ISIS: admittedly, I've thought the same. But where? Against who? This is the problem we face when going up against insurgents: they blend in, have no obvious leader (unless they reveal themselves), and as such we cannot hit them accurately. That said, the loss of life therein may (and call me a cruel person for it) be acceptable for what may come in the long run. A nuclear strike would absolutely annihilate any resistance ISIS has and show any survivors that the nations of the world will not put up with their ****. And such a strike would definitely affect the fighting capability of ISIS. The loss of civilian life would likely reach into the hundreds of thousands, and honestly, that is an issue for me. But no war can be won without civilian losses. And civilian losses are something we understand with nuclear weaponry, as President Truman knew when he gave the go-ahead for the release of the two bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. But for now, no on nuclear solutions.

What the armies of the world need to do is mobilize against the threat, not just in the air. What good does dropping ten thousand kilograms of bombs do when there is no one to move up and secure the position afterwards? Obama, get your head out of your ass! (I've said that way too much over the past seven years) We need boots on the ground. Sure, those 50 Spec Ops are a start, but it doesn't do much good otherwise. We need to take the fight to ISIS, not have them bring it to us.

So much for not venting. But I believe I made the basis of my point clear. And to all those who have very hateful feelings towards the Islamic community: remember who the real enemy is. Not Ameer Al-Abbas, second-generation American/Englishman/Frenchman, who busts his back every day to make an honest living and is proud to be a citizen of your country. Its the ones who committed this atrocity, the extremists. You may not be able to tell who they are, but the more you prosecute, the more you help ISIS grow.

Once more, may whatever deity you pray to be with you, safe travels, and stay strong.

:Kaleun_Salute:

[Oberon]

Think you're pretty spot on there Endrass. Daesh wants us to distrust all Muslims, and wants all Muslims to feel rejected and hated by us, so that it will be easier to persuade them to take up arms against us.

It is little wonder that many of the people who go to Syria are of an age between 16-25, an age where many of us are unsure about ourselves as our body goes through changes which can be baffling and frightening.
It can be easy for someone of that age to slip into drink or drugs or gang membership, or in this new world, extremism.

That being said, it is a very difficult situation for the west, and in particular our security services. To try and prevent these attacks without ostracising the Islamic community by putting them under intense observation. I recall reading an article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33344898) about the 'Arhaus Model', now putting aside for a moment the question of the effectiveness of the model, one has to look at what radicalised the gentleman interviewed by the BBC in the first place, and I quote:


So the family went to Mecca and Ahmed remembered returning to Denmark with a sense of relief.
"When we came back I was happy and I was a new person with a religious identity. I saw the world differently. I saw that it was important for a person to have a connection with his god, I saw that there was an afterlife."
But Ahmed's new faith got him into trouble at school. He abandoned jeans and T-shirts and took to wearing traditional Islamic dress. He became defensive and argumentative when the subject of religion came up. He acknowledges today that he could have handled things better, but at the time, he said, he responded aggressively because he felt he had a duty to defend his religion when he was being baited by his Danish classmates.

...

He was out one evening when his father rang. "Where are you?" he demanded. "What have you done?" His father said the police had just knocked on the door and were looking for him.
"When I got home, he was shocked and angry. He told me that I had to go straight to the police station the following morning, and ask them what they wanted."
So Ahmed went to see the police and was amazed to discover that he'd been turned in by the principal of the school.

"The reason you are here," he was told, "is that your classmates are afraid, they think you are extremist and that you are capable of dangerous things. They think you have been radicalised in Saudi Arabia."
Ahmed grins as he remembers all this. But it wasn't funny at the time - he had a vision of being put on the next flight to Guantanamo. "I was shocked," he says "and I had no words to defend myself."
The police then told him they would need to search his home and that they would need the password to his email account and any other social media that he used.
"I gave them everything and they searched my house and it was very humiliating to watch. When they left I was shocked and I was angry," he says.

It got worse. All this had happened during the last week of school, and he had missed the end of year exams. The school, he told me, refused to allow him to sit them late.
"That gave me a punch in the face, and gave me the feeling this society is total racist," he says. "They call me a terrorist? I will give them a terrorist if they want that."



So, one kid gets religion, gets baited by other kids at school, tries to defend his religion and then gets labelled as a potential extremist and the police get involved. At this point he has become an outcast, no-one at school will want to know him, no-one in his street will want to have anything to do with him, he will be considered dangerous, even if the police give him the all clear.
Enter, stage left, videos from a radical Imam:


Ahmed then told everything to his friends at the mosque. They were sympathetic, he says, and invited him home. There were long discussions about the hypocrisy of the West in its dealings with Muslims and Muslim countries. They watched a lot of jihadi videos online. Ahmed remembers in particular those that featured Anwar al-Awlaki, the radical American cleric of Yemeni descent, who was killed in a drone strike in 2011.
"He would say things like, 'We are at war with the West, the West will kill all the Muslims around the world if we don't stand up to them,' and I was like, OK, and my friends were saying, 'Yeah, he's totally right.'"
Finally someone drew Ahmed aside and suggested that if he wanted to learn more about Islam and be respected as a Muslim, he should go to Pakistan. "He told me about a school there, where they have good teachers and where they teach Islam in the best way."


A young mind, isolated by those around him will naturally seek those of a similar disposition, and it's very easy to insert sentiment in there which will benefit extremists and harvest young mislead minds for the cause.

From then on, unless stopped, the person will go away from the country and off to somewhere where he or she can be properly indoctrinated, having taken the bait on the hook, and from there on they are a soldier in the army of Daesh, Al'Qaeda or whatever.
Sometimes it helps that Daesh will provide propaganda that makes it seem like a 'Boys own' adventure to go and fight in the Syrian civil war, I mean, hey Muslim friends, you get to drive tanks, shoot guns, and no-one to tell you to go to bed before nine or to do your homework. :O: You get the chance to become a hero, I mean who hasn't day-dreamt about being the hero in their own action film? Especially at the tender age of 20, or even younger. You get the chance to be respected, to be adulated, and surely that's better than working a 9-5 shift at the local McDonalds where some people look warily at you, or the kids throw fries at you and call you terrorist filth?

So, yes, it's a real Catch-22 situation, we've got to clamp down and eliminate radicals, in particular the sources, the indoctrinators and recruiters, but in a way that doesn't end up creating more radicals in the process. :dead:

[Oberon]

Reports from Saint Denis indicate that the target of the police operation is targeting Abaaoud Abdelhamid, that at least one person has been killed and one police officer injured, and the operation is still on-going.

[Jimbuna]

Looks like the operation has now ended...

Two people were killed in the raid, including a female suspect who blew herself up with a suicide belt. Seven people have been arrested, police say.
A government spokesman has confirmed the operation has ended.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34853657

[CaptainRamius]

If you guys didn't know, in the police operation going on in Paris, a police dog was killed. At least he died an honorable death.

[Betonov]

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/12274463_10153306915533525_1559449269270286729_n.p ng?oh=cd61bfd025af9b76c6f05bb07be989e4&oe=56FAB2AD

Yep, Diesel, aged 7.

[CaptainRamius]

Yep, Diesel, aged 7.
Poor thing. I bet the police lost a great dog :salute:

[Skybird]

During a football match Greece versus Turkey, 40 thousand Turkish fans booed the minute of silence and ended in shouting Allahu Akbar.

All Jazeera links the Paris attacks to a Jewish conspiracy - if it covers the story at all. Other Arab media are extremely silent on the story, too.

France president welcomed Qatar's prime minister in Paris, although the Quatari government is sticking from toe to head in the financing of Muslim terrorism, bypassing criticism by "outsourcing" the financial aid to private clans that are very close to the heading ranks of state.

The bitter lesson that nobody wants to hear: the situation we slip deeper and deeper into is because political social engineers since long time and at all cost - no matter which cost, no cost is too high - want to force together in Europe what does not match well together: the values of the West, and Islam. The social engineers that have given us the gift of Islamization in Europe and have done their share to make these events of the present possible, and have created the tension there is between the West and the Middle East - these same arsonists now play act in a bid to pretend that they have had nothing to do with it and are no arsonists, but innocent victims or leaders fighting the ghosts that they have called all themselves. The nations and people meanwhile pay the price, and not just in terrorism.

And they will continue to do so. All their lousy pathetic speeches and crocodile tears shed - its all part of the script. Priority is to delay as long as they can the revelation of the mistakes being made in the past. Thats how they do with the counterfeit paper money. Thats how they do with the EUSSR. Thats how they do with Islam in Europe. The Titanic we sail on has hit not just one but already three Icebergs by now, leaving three huge breaches in the hull. And as we know by now, the Titanic sank due to the arrogance of the Captain and a helm too small for the mass and speed of that ship.

Its like with the pathetic TV shows on US TV once there has been another school shooting. Pathos en masse and heartbraking vows and bla and bla and bla - and moments later business as usual.

By now, its all routine.

Edit:

P.S., on a sidenote, I flew over a short message about an interview the Dalai Lama gave the German international radio station NDW (Neue Deutsche Welle). He said (I translate from the German): "I am Buddhist, I firmly believe in the power of praying. But these problems are man-made. Thus we cannot ask a god to solve them for us. That is not logical. (...) God would tell us: 'take care of this problem all yourself - since you have created it all by yourself.' "

Well - will we?

[Commander Wallace]

In addition to that posted by Neal , Oberon and others, France, Russia, U.S and other major powers indicated a shift in policies or warming of relations regarding the threats posed by Isis.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/narrowing-rift-us-and-russia-entertain-cooperation-in-syria/2015/11/18/a5042b38-8dd8-11e5-934c-a369c80822c2_story.html

Quote: French President Francois Hollande announced he would travel to Washington next week and Moscow two days later to discuss stepping up cooperation against Isis with Obama and Putin. U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron is quoted as saying on Tuesday :
There was a stronger case for the U.K. to join airstrikes against Islamic State in Syria in the wake of the Paris attacks, and that he would lay out his argument to do so in the coming days.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/cameron-says-paris-attacks-strengthen-case-for-u-k-joining-airstrikes-in-syria-1447773594


It's hopeful these meetings will lay the groundwork for the multinational coalition Neal and others here have talked about.
Quote : A White House official said no matter what happens in Syria, the U.S. won’t lift crippling economic sanctions against Russia until it fulfills its obligations under a Ukraine peace deal reached in February.

As U crank pointed out, most of the strikes carried out by Russia in Syria have been directed at moderate rebels fighting Assad, not Isis. Time will tell whether these efforts will bear fruit. As Skybird said, the situation resembles a sinking ship.

[Betonov]

During a football match Greece versus Turkey, 40 thousand Turkish fans booed the minute of silence and ended in shouting Allahu Akbar.

It was the first time the two teams had met for eight years and the Turkish Football Federation had announced a string of additional security measures before the match at the Basaksehir Fatih Terim Stadium stadium in Istanbul, which was a 17,000 sell out.

40 000 Turks booing in a 17 000 capacity stadium.

[Skybird]

Ah yes, this is of most essential relevance and absolutely vital for the importance of the issue.

According to one youtube video entry, 17,000, according to another 40,000, according to two German news sources that brought me on this, 40,000.

Can we now count the clouds in the sky, please? :yeah:

[Dowly]

Titanic didn't hit the berg because of Captain Smith's arrogance or because it had (very slightly) smaller rudder than it should've had. :hmph:

[Skybird]

Titanic didn't hit the berg because of Captain Smith's arrogance or because it had (very slightly) smaller rudder than it should've had. :hmph:

Okay, lets derail it here. The cause for the Titanic was that the ship raced through a zone with known icefields and icebergs, at night, at a higher speed than would be recommendable under such conditions, becasue the captain did not want to fail the very ambitious timetable for the first voyage of the ship. wrong decision on his side. The ship's helm was too small too allow course corrrections in time for objects appearing in sightr at those viewing distances. The ship hit an iceberg, and bolts of minor quality used for building it increased the range of the damage done from that impact needlessly, somewhat having corrupted ideas of the principle design idea.

thats usually the general story being told, more or less. Back to original topic.

[CaptainRamius]

Okay, lets derail it here. The cause for the Titanic was that the ship raced through a zone with known icefields and icebergs, at night, at a higher speed than would be recommendable under such conditions, becasue the captain did not want to fail the very ambitious timetable for the first voyage of the ship. wrong decision on his side. The ship's helm was too small too allow course corrrections in time for objects appearing in sightr at those viewing distances. The ship hit an iceberg, and bolts of minor quality used for building it increased the range of the damage done from that impact needlessly, somewhat having corrupted ideas of the principle design idea.

thats usually the general story being told, more or less. Back to original topic.

Just to add to your post, the Titanic hit the iceberg because of the reasons stated above, AND because the captain slowed the ship before turning. Had Smith had increased speed, the turning radius of the Titanic would have decreased, and it would have (most likely) slipped past unharmed.
Like you said, back to original topic :D

[Dowly]

Okay, lets derail it here. The cause for the Titanic was that the ship raced through a zone with known icefields and icebergs, at night, at a higher speed than would be recommendable under such conditions, becasue the captain did not want to fail the very ambitious timetable for the first voyage of the ship. wrong decision on his side.
This is a mix of hindsight and myth.

British inquiry's final report:

"Why, then, did the Master persevere in his course and maintain his speed? The answer is to be found in the evidence. It was shown that for many years past, indeed, for a quarter of a century or more, the practice of liners using this track when in the vicinity of ice at night had been in clear weather to keep the course, to maintain the speed and to trust to a sharp look-out to enable them to avoid the danger. This practice, it was said, had been justified by experience, no casualties having resulted from it. I accept the evidence as to the practice and as to the immunity from casualties which is said to have accompanied it."

and

"In these circumstances I am not able to blame Captain Smith. He had not the experience which his own misfortune has afforded to those whom he has left behind, and he was doing only that which other skilled men would have done in the same position."

As for the speed record myth, same final report addresses it by saying:

"The evidence shows that he was not trying to make any record passage or indeed any exceptionally quick passage. He was not trying to please anybody, but was exercising his own discretion in the way he thought best. He made a mistake, a very grievous mistake, but one in which, in face of the practice and of past experience, negligence cannot he said to have had any part; and in the absence of negligence it is, in my opinion, impossible to fix Captain Smith with blame."

The ship's helm was too small too allow course corrrections in time for objects appearing in sightr at those viewing distances.Titanic wasn't built to dodge icebergs left and right. As I already stated, the rudder was marginally too small, but the ship still could turn pretty tight.(see photo below)

http://imgur.com/vtqEtM9http://i.imgur.com/vtqEtM9.jpg
Photo taken aboard the Titanic as it sailed from Cherbourg to Queenstown.

Even with marginally larger rudder, it is unlikely Titanic could have avoided the iceberg, there simply was no time and stopping/reversing the engines only made the rudder less effective.

The ship hit an iceberg, and bolts of minor quality used for building it increased the range of the damage done from that impact needlessly, somewhat having corrupted ideas of the principle design idea.These "minor quality" bolts (rivets, actually) seem to have had little trouble withstanding the impact of the ship hitting the bottom... :roll:

@CaptainRamius: Captain Smith didn't give any of the orders, First Officer Murdoch had the bridge at the time of the collision.

[Betonov]

It seems that the dirtbag that blesed this planet by blowing herself up did it, when she encountered the police dog Diesel, mortaly wounding the unfortunate police dog.
If a police squad would have been the first thing she'd encounter, the death toll would have been higher.

Diesel :salute:

[Tchocky]

All their lousy pathetic speeches and crocodile tears shed - its all part of the script.

So France increasing military strikes in Syria is what, part of the script as well?

5,000 rounds fired off this morning in St. Denis all part of the script?

Who wrote this bloody thing? If they can predict everything why so I still lose money on horse races?

Priority is to delay as long as they can the revelation of the mistakes being made in the past. Thats how they do with the counterfeit paper money.

Yeah, back to the gold standard. That's a great idea that is in no way total lunacy.

Thats how they do with the EUSSR.

Oh man that's so edgy. Real thinking there.


Thats how they do with Islam in Europe.

THEY

THEY

THEY

[Oberon]

http://images.fastcompany.com/upload/glenn-beck-gold.jpg

[Kaptlt.Endrass]

In case you may not have seen it anyone, I posted an analysis on the original attacks on Page 11 of this thread, of which Oberon (thank you, btw) graciously agreed with. I feel that what I mention in there is, at least to some degree, accurate.

And now, no offense to those this pertains to: If you want to discuss the sinking of the Titanic, there's a 'New Topic' button for that. We're here to discuss the attacks on Paris and the subsequent operations that have or will occur.

Also, just heard Premier Hollande is extending the State of Emergency for another 3 months in order to give he authorities more power in terms of searching and prosecution.

[Commander Wallace]

Abdel­hamid Abaaoud, the suspected architect of the Terrorist attack in Paris last Friday was killed in a pre dawn raid Wednesday by French Police Commandos.

Quote :
Paris prosecutor François Molins, speaking to reporters hours after the siege, said he could not provide the identities of the people killed at the scene. A French security official declined to confirm or deny that Abaaoud had died. U.S. officials said they were awaiting confirmation of the identities of those slain. The two European officials from different countries, who have followed the case closely, said they had received the information about Abaaoud’s death from French authorities. The two officials spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.


Suspected architect of Paris attacks is dead, 2 senior European officials say
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2-attack-suspects-in-dead-after-french-police-raid-north-of-paris/2015/11/18/a2b6d52e-8d6a-11e5-934c-a369c80822c2_story.html

[Oberon]

Abdel­hamid Abaaoud, the suspected architect of the Terrorist attack in Paris last Friday was killed in a pre dawn raid Wednesday by French Police Commandos.


I'm afraid the Post jumped the gun a little, it's not confirmed yet. There's possibly a body that needs to be identified, so he might be it, but as of this time his death is not confirmed.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34859082

[CaptainRamius]

Any updates on any activities in Paris or the surrounding regions?

[Commander Wallace]

I'm afraid the Post jumped the gun a little, it's not confirmed yet. There's possibly a body that needs to be identified, so he might be it, but as of this time his death is not confirmed.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34859082

That's always the way. I'm sure the forensic people will be working on it though to establish his identity.

[Jimbuna]

I'm afraid the Post jumped the gun a little, it's not confirmed yet. There's possibly a body that needs to be identified, so he might be it, but as of this time his death is not confirmed.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34859082

Tis now confirmed...

The suspected ringleader of the Paris attacks, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, has been identified as one of those killed in a raid in Saint Denis, the Paris prosecutor says.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34867615

[Oberon]

Indeed, and good riddance too. Always a shame that we can't deny them their wish to martyr themselves and drop them in max-sec solitary for the rest of their life, but in a situation like this one, there is little other option.

[Betonov]

Is it easier to breathe on this planet, or is there one less scumbag using up oxygen :hmmm:

[CaptainRamius]

Is it easier to breathe on this planet, or is there one less scumbag using up oxygen :hmmm:

I think the latter. I'm so glad that France sent out the Charles De Gaulle, ISIS could really use a "Omlette de Fromage" right about now :D

[Armistead]

Noticed on CNN reporting that many in the neighborhood knew the ring leader was there in the area and even did morning prayer in mosque, yet no one reported it as we know. The reporter said they became very defensive when asked why they didn't report.

[Oberon]

Well, no-one wants to be a grass, especially when there are people with ears everywhere who would be willing to give up your ID so that a friendly man with a knife can visit you in the small hours.

It's like gang warfare, snitches get stitches.

[Moonlight]

Haven't they heard of what an anonymous phone call is then, of course they have but they choose to stay silent, and the operative word here is choose.

[mapuc]

On Danish TV they said

The Parisians are happy, disappointed and mad

Happy that the most wanted person for this attack is dead
But are also
Disappointed that the police didn't get him alive, so they could ask him things

Mad-because the agencies said he was in Syria and now it turned out he was in Paris(France)

[Oberon]

Haven't they heard of what an anonymous phone call is then, of course they have but they choose to stay silent, and the operative word here is choose.

Doesn't always work that way, if it was that easy then more gangbangers would be getting pulled, wouldn't they?

[Jimbuna]

It usually takes a very brave or stupid person to lift their heads above the parapets.

Fear can be a great leveller.

[eddie]

Nice to see this rally from Muslims, especially in Paris. And it seems it was well received there too.

http://news.yahoo.com/french-muslim-calls-on-peers-to-stop-terrorism---the-solution-will-come-from-us-165741864.html

[Rockstar]

Just an FYI, I did the math. Warning I suck at math. But, I added up some numbers

According to the F.B.I. in 2013 there were 1,163,146 violent crimes and 14,196 murders reported in the U.S. Keep in mind thats just one year. The good news is these rates have been consistently dropping.

According to the Global Terrorism Database http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/ . From 1970 to 2014 there have been approximately 2,660 incidents of terrorism and 3,472 related deaths in the U.S. in the last 40 years.

Just thought Id pass that along.

good night all

[Stealhead]

Just an FYI, I did the math. Warning I suck at math. But, I added up some numbers

According to the F.B.I. in 2013 there were 1,163,146 violent crimes and 14,196 murders reported in the U.S. Keep in mind thats just one year. The good news is these rates have been consistently dropping.

According to the Global Terrorism Database http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/ . From 1970 to 2014 there have been approximately 2,660 incidents of terrorism and 3,472 related deaths in the U.S. in the last 40 years.

Just thought Id pass that along.

good night all

I wonder what the criteria is for the terror one was? Are those Americans killed by terror acts? In the US only or also Americans killed outside the US? If so I say the number is wrong as it should higher. The deadliest incident would be September 11 2001 second would be the Marine barracks bombing and I recon third would be the USS Cole bombing last would be the embassy bombings in 98 though those killed mostly local Africans last would be Kobar Towers the rest would be Americans killed in other acts. Heck maybe they number is right but I feel that is low by perhaps 100 or 200.

I recon that you are saying that as a whole you are pretty unlikely to die or even be injured or event personally witness an act of terror. Heck your chance of being the victim of any violent crime is fairly low.

[Oberon]

Rockstar makes a good point and one that I'm sure I've mentioned before, or if I haven't then I should have done. You're far more likely to die in a car accident than through an act of terror. Of course, that doesn't mean that we should be lax in our vigilance, but equally we should overreact and panic in response to an individual act of terror.
I must admit, I don't understand the decision of the French parliament to extend the state of emergency for another three months, other than to give increased powers to the police forces to act without judicial oversight. :hmmm: A month I could understand, or to the end of the year, so that Christmas and New Years are over...but up till February? :hmmm:
Probably just me, I just get a smidge of concern when governments bypass the judicial system, even if it's in the interest of 'dealing with terrorism', however such a thing is defined.

[Rockstar]

You can break down the search by country. It showed Aden, Yemen where the USS Cole incident happened and 35 U.S. sailors were killed Oct 12 2000. Therefore I'm fairly certain the numbers I added up are fatalities which occured in the U.S. only.

Also those numbers are directly related to attacks. Death due to mental or physical health issues arising after the fact are not included.

[Rockstar]

Rockstar makes a good point and one that I'm sure I've mentioned before, or if I haven't then I should have done. You're far more likely to die in a car accident than through an act of terror. Of course, that doesn't mean that we should be lax in our vigilance, but equally we should overreact and panic in response to an individual act of terror.
I must admit, I don't understand the decision of the French parliament to extend the state of emergency for another three months, other than to give increased powers to the police forces to act without judicial oversight. :hmmm: A month I could understand, or to the end of the year, so that Christmas and New Years are over...but up till February? :hmmm:
Probably just me, I just get a smidge of concern when governments bypass the judicial system, even if it's in the interest of 'dealing with terrorism', however such a thing is defined.

Apparently the attacks caught a lot of officials completly off guard. Extending the state of emergency was probably done to help the French government security services maintain some order while they fix whats broke.

[Oberon]

Apparently the attacks caught a lot of officials completly off guard. Extending the state of emergency was probably done to help the French government security services maintain some order while they fix whats broke.

That makes sense, I mean Hollande doesn't strike me as the type that would try anything dodgy, but...well...politicians. :03:

[Nippelspanner]

That makes sense, I mean Hollande doesn't strike me as the type that would try anything dodgy, but...well...politicians. :03:
He is the political leader of a country.
So yes, exactly: Politicians.

By now (age 31) I am convinced that they are all soulless.
Some are just better actors (liars) than others.

[Torplexed]

Rockstar makes a good point and one that I'm sure I've mentioned before, or if I haven't then I should have done. You're far more likely to die in a car accident than through an act of terror. Of course, that doesn't mean that we should be lax in our vigilance, but equally we should overreact and panic in response to an individual act of terror.


These terrorists don't have much real power, but in a world of mass and social media, they can leverage it all out of proportion to their numbers.

Not to minimize the attacks this week, but in the end they can't bring down world civilization. These losers will always be outnumbered. About the best they can hope is to create friction and fear and in that they are certainly succeeding.

The new networks this week has been bombarding us with terrorist portraits. Security cam clips of the terrorist attacks and re-broadcasts of terrorist threat videos, articles from terrorist magazines, even a documentary about ISIS schools educating toddler-terrorists. And then at the same time showing us a vast host of Syrian refugees headed this way.

Plus, is something eerie odd about watching Russia expend expensive cruise missiles on a war-torn patch of desert which has the industrial-economic foot print probably one tenth of what the Axis satellite of Slovakia had in WW2. And this after months of the US bombing said patch right and left

But fair or not, it's happening. And unless some modern day Lawrence of Arabia can gather a Muslim Army to lead and win the fight against ISIS, it looks like we're going to be committing non-Muslim ground troops to yet another war in the Middle East, which we will win. However, it is likely to have the ultimate effect of recruiting yet another generation of angry jihadists.

[Betonov]

These terrorists don't have much real power, but in a world of mass and social media, they can leverage it all out of proportion to their numbers.


Their biggest weapons are the target nation politicians, either rulling faction abusing the fear to force even more power to himself or an oposition faction gathering cheap points.

And mostly, as always, I blame the media. Insteading of giving us some assurance, some sense of unity and facts about the real strength of those cells, they sell us fear. it's like my generation will be one of the most fearfull and paranoid ever. Jumping at shadows and electing despots everytime an unpleasant wind blows.

[Jimbuna]

These terrorists don't have much real power, but in a world of mass and social media, they can leverage it all out of proportion to their numbers.

Not to minimize the attacks this week, but in the end they can't bring down world civilization. These losers will always be outnumbered. About the best they can hope is to create friction and fear and in that they are certainly succeeding.

The new networks this week has been bombarding us with terrorist portraits. Security cam clips of the terrorist attacks and re-broadcasts of terrorist threat videos, articles from terrorist magazines, even a documentary about ISIS schools educating toddler-terrorists. And then at the same time showing us a vast host of Syrian refugees headed this way.

Plus, is something eerie odd about watching Russia expend expensive cruise missiles on a war-torn patch of desert which has the industrial-economic foot print probably one tenth of what the Axis satellite of Slovakia had in WW2. And this after months of the US bombing said patch right and left

But fair or not, it's happening. And unless some modern day Lawrence of Arabia can gather a Muslim Army to lead and win the fight against ISIS, it looks like we're going to be committing non-Muslim ground troops to yet another war in the Middle East, which we will win. However, it is likely to have the ultimate effect of recruiting yet another generation of angry jihadists.

Great post :sunny:

[u crank]

These terrorists don't have much real power...

I think it would be fair to add..not yet.

But fair or not, it's happening. And unless some modern day Lawrence of Arabia can gather a Muslim Army to lead and win the fight against ISIS, it looks like we're going to be committing non-Muslim ground troops to yet another war in the Middle East, which we will win. However, it is likely to have the ultimate effect of recruiting yet another generation of angry jihadists.

Indeed. I think it's time for a new strategy.

From a National Post article January 2015 by Loretta Napoleoni.

The success of the Islamic State forces us to a moment of reckoning. It is time to declare the failure of counter-terrorism to prevent the advent of the Caliphate, and it is time to face our responsibilities. The world is in need of a new approach to stopping this hostile political entity, especially now as it redraws, in blood, the borders of the Middle East. Such a strategy cannot be produced by denying the obvious fact that the genesis of the Caliphate is deeply intertwined with decades of Western politics and interventions in the Middle East.

If the Islamic State succeeds in building one nation across Iraq and Syria, the threat posed by this achievement will go well beyond the political landscape of these two nations. For the first time in modern history, an armed organization will have fulfilled the final goal of terrorism: to create its own state on the ashes of existing nations, not through a revolution, as happened in Iran, but through a traditional war of conquest based upon terrorist tactics. If it does so, the Islamic State will have become the new model of terrorism.

[MH]

Rockstar makes a good point and one that I'm sure I've mentioned before, or if I haven't then I should have done. You're far more likely to die in a car accident than through an act of terror. Of course, that doesn't mean that we should be lax in our vigilance, but equally we should overreact and panic in response to an individual act of terror.
I must admit, I don't understand the decision of the French parliament to extend the state of emergency for another three months, other than to give increased powers to the police forces to act without judicial oversight. :hmmm: A month I could understand, or to the end of the year, so that Christmas and New Years are over...but up till February? :hmmm:
Probably just me, I just get a smidge of concern when governments bypass the judicial system, even if it's in the interest of 'dealing with terrorism', however such a thing is defined.

If you had 9/11 every year you would be still more likely to die in a car accident.
A lot is being done to prevent this.

EU let the situation to get out of control regarding Islamic extremism.
Your politicians refused to deal with the issue for too long , just being nice and tolerant or understanding will not help here to change the reality.
Not dealing with extremist , inflammatory mosques and preachers , not wanting to steer the pot doesn't work.
You can always try the Sweden's foreign minister approach blaming Israeli Palestinian conflict for what has happened in France...that should make sense about who is friend or who is foe.
This is the kind of nonsense that contributed to this situation.

You can pretend about how you have grown big pair of balls and how this whole issue is just media hysterical whining or fear mongering yet now you getting glimpse about what is going on and had been brewing in your backyard for years , it is quite serious.

[Oberon]

You can pretend about how you have grown big pair of balls and how this whole issue is just media hysterical whining or fear mongering yet now you getting glimpse about what is going on and had been brewing in your backyard for years , it is quite serious.

And? You said so yourself, you're more likely to die in a car crash, so why get so excited about it?
Yes, take down the radical preachers, the extremists, I've never been against that, but the key matter is to make the cut as clean as possible. People like Skybird want to take a chainsaw to the problem, I prefer a scalpel. Cut out the rot but don't throw out the entire apple.

We've had the Irish problem for decades before this, and we coped with it without resorting to hysteria, we'll get by, providing our governments don't do something stupid like try to deport all Muslims, or go all Donald Trump and force Muslims to have identity cards and go on a register...heh, and have numbers tattooed on their arms no doubt. :O:

EDIT: Oh, and before someone says 'The whole apply is rotten', look how many Parisians this guy (http://mashable.com/2015/11/19/blindfolded-muslim-man-hugs-paris/#EDfk9ujGWuqZ) manages to not explode.

[MH]

And? You said so yourself, you're more likely to die in a car crash, so why get so excited about it?
Yes, take down the radical preachers, the extremists, I've never been against that, but the key matter is to make the cut as clean as possible. People like Skybird want to take a chainsaw to the problem, I prefer a scalpel. Cut out the rot but don't throw out the entire apple.

We've had the Irish problem for decades before this, and we coped with it without resorting to hysteria, we'll get by, providing our governments don't do something stupid like try to deport all Muslims, or go all Donald Trump and force Muslims to have identity cards and go on a register...heh, and have numbers tattooed on their arms no doubt. :O:

Well...well...numbers...ok ok

It is going to be long never ending medical procedure... deal with something in one place something new pops out in other....
As I said before with all those emigrants and refugees you are importing ME problems into your backyard.

For some it may be a big issue ... it took Europe long time to become liberal relatively atheist democracy with more or less peaceful culture across the board.
The myth that Europeans created for themselves about them being so superior that every Muslim will simply have to integrate because it is in his best interest simply doesn't work.
The gethos are getting bigger...so you blame infrastructure , lack of investments , your not being nice enough but you don't get it that you are being used , it is really cultural issue.
Cultural issue is something Europeans are scared to talk and dance circles around it, yet at the end of the day what what it is.

So people should know that by letting all the masses of people from middle east , the rate of car accidents may dramatically increase.
Big chunks of some of the cities may turn into Muslim zones policed... or not lol.
Crime will rise , religion cultural related domestic violence will have to be dealt with...impossible lol... welfare will be in big demand and so on.

If people do accept it then it is all cool , for better or worse.
Yet nobody really asks them do they.

[Oberon]

I guess we'll see, people have been predicting the end of Europe for decades, everyone thought we'd have another 9/11 within a decade of the first, or that someone would have detonated a suitcase nuke before 2011 was done, or we'd be at war with China or something.

[Betonov]

I guess we'll see, people have been predicting the end of Europe for decades, everyone thought we'd have another 9/11 within a decade of the first, or that someone would have detonated a suitcase nuke before 2011 was done, or we'd be at war with China or something.

I think it goes way back to 1529 and the first siege of Wien.

But then even further back when the Mongols were invading from the east.

And then the huns

And Persians threatening to destroy the Greek states and march up the Balkans

[MH]

I guess we'll see, people have been predicting the end of Europe for decades, everyone thought we'd have another 9/11 within a decade of the first, or that someone would have detonated a suitcase nuke before 2011 was done, or we'd be at war with China or something.


Who is talking about end of Europe here.?
It is about spiced up Europe lol

think it goes way back to 1529 and the first siege of Wien.

But then even further back when the Mongols were invading from the east.

And then the huns

And Persians threatening to destroy the Greek states and march up the Balkans :roll:

[Oberon]

Spices? Well, Europe knows all about spices, we fought wars over the stuff. :03:

https://static.spiceworks.com/shared/post/0001/3129/download.jpg

[Oberon]

Meanwhile in Belgium, reports indicate that the search for Salah Abdeslam may have ended, for today at least, but the lockdown of Brussels city will continue tomorrow with schools and universities being closed. NATO and the EU Commission will open (under heavy guard no doubt) but other events and places are unknown at this time.
On the internet, twitter users have been asked not to tweet information regarding events on the ground, although that has not stopped the BBC from accidentally leaking information regarding blockades (A Bendy bus with the advert "What a wonderful world #not [I'm not joking] on the side was used to block a street in Brussels at one point amid reports of police activity in the area), so in an attempt to bury any potentially security risking tweets in the #BrusselsLockdown tag, users have been posting pictures of cats.
There will be a press conference in around an hour, twitter has already posted a picture of who will be holding the conference...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUc1QUFWoAAjYwU.jpg:large

[Rockstar]

Cultural issue is something Europeans are scared to talk and dance circles around it ...

http://www.animationplaza.com/1/animations/machines/tools/hammer_hit_nail_ha.gif

[Oberon]

Well, we've had a bit more time to talk about it, and since it changes all the time, getting worked up about another change really isn't worth it. :03:

[Betonov]

If we don't do nothing, things are going to go to hell.
If we go far right, things are going to go to hell.
If we go far left, things are going to go to hell.
If we take the sensible middle, the right and the left will complain we didn't go far right/left and things will go to hell.

European internal politics 101

[Oberon]

Quite, besides, the last time Europe got worked up about race and culture tens of millions of people died.

[Catfish]

If we don't do nothing, things are going to go to hell.
If we go far right, things are going to go to hell.
If we go far left, things are going to go to hell.
ok

If we take the sensible middle, the right and the left will complain we didn't go far right/left and things will go to hell. European internal politics 101
:haha: Unfortunately the only and best thing to do would be to take "the middle", and nothing would go to hell but extreme rights and lefts. Why not screw 'em and reinstate common sense.

[vienna]

:haha: Unfortunately the only and best thing to do would be to take "the middle", and nothing would go to hell but extreme rights and lefts. Why not screw 'em and reinstate common sense.

:agree: wholeheartedly! Someone a long while back once if you really anger both the far fringes of the political spectrum, you are very likely following the right path. It is odd, indeed, that common sense and carefully applied logic seem to so very much anger those of extreme views; intelligence envy, perhaps?... :hmmm:


<O>

[Betonov]

:agree: wholeheartedly! Someone a long while back once if you really anger both the far fringes of the political spectrum, you are very likely following the right path. It is odd, indeed, that common sense and carefully applied logic seem to so very much anger those of extreme views; intelligence envy, perhaps?... :hmmm:


<O>

True that.
Problem is that the fringes are allowed to vote :/\\!!

[Aktungbby]

If we don't do nothing, things are going to go to hell.
If we go far right, things are going to go to hell.
If we go far left, things are going to go to hell.
If we take the sensible middle, the right and the left will complain we didn't go far right/left and things will go to hell.

European internal politics 101
All roads lead to RO...hell?http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/horror/dancing-devil-smiley-emoticon.gif (http://www.sherv.net/dancing.devil-emoticon-3838.html) http://www.aviewoncities.com/img/rome/kveit1640s.jpg from the Latin: facilis descensus Averno (the descent to hell is easy-"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"(aphorism)

[Betonov]

Choosing between a road to hell and the road to Rome, I'd go to hell.

[CaptainRamius]

Choosing between a road to hell and the road to Rome, I'd go to hell.

Rome. Why hell when you can be an empire :D
Some people I just don't understand :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Rome. Why hell when you can be an empire :D
Some people I just don't understand :hmmm:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Italian_War_of_Independence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_London_%281915%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy%E2%80%93Yugoslavia_relations

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/43493864

[Betonov]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Italian_War_of_Independence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_London_%281915%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy%E2%80%93Yugoslavia_relations

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/43493864

And they're lousy tippers, even lousier drivers, loud, obnoxious, smell like they think showers are on a monthly bases and cover it up with a litre of deodorant, that greasy hair that I believe it's naturally greased and the sheer volume of noise when more than two are together !!!!
They are the first to talk, the first to run and the first to stick a knife in your back.


And if you don't believe they're cowards, check the battle of Caporetto where this happened:
Rommel and 150 of his men proceeded down and captured the town, 2 miles (3.2 km) behind enemy lines. Believing the presence of Rommels' group to be proof that their lines had collapsed, a column of Italian light infantry, 2,000 strong, surrendered after a brief firefight.[30] Before dawn on the 26th, Rommel led his Abteilung, now reinforced with two additional machine gun companies, toward Matajur. They took the village of Jevszek without a fight, capturing another 1,600 men. In spite of orders not to attack, they assaulted Matajur from an unexpected direction from behind the Italian lines, arriving at the summit shortly before noon on 27 October. In two and a half days, he and his small contingent of men had captured 81 guns and 9,000 men (including 150 officers), at the loss of six dead and 30 wounded. Acting as advance guard in the capture of Longarone on 9 November, he again decided to attack with a much smaller force. Reinforcements continued to arrive, and fighting continued through the night. Convinced that they were surrounded by an entire German division, the 1st Italian Infantry Division – 10,000 men – surrendered to Rommel at dawn.

[Oberon]

I quite like their food though... :hmmm:

[Mittelwaechter]

Some folks love their life, friends and family and are clever enough, not to lose it for some distant inhuman entity, telling them what's worth fighting, killing and dying for.

[Dmitry Markov]

I love their food, their Fine Arts, music, musical instruments and a lot of things :)

For the loudness of them when there are more than two come together - agree too :) Once I had a chance to travel from St. Petersburg to Moscow in a railway car full of Italian tourists... Well you know... :88)

Previous September I've been to northern Italy in a countryside between Milano and Genova - every local I've met seemed to be friendly and polite :up: - never had any problem except for their railways - exceptionally inaccurate schedule-wise.

[Betonov]

They can be quite tolerable when you're in Italy.
And hospitable. Just remember to keep one hand on the wallet while you're shaking his hand with the other one.
It's when they get out of Italy they become intolerable at best. They have this: ''if it's not italy it's crap'' attitude.

[Jimbuna]

Here's me thinking this thread was about a terrorist attack on Paris :hmm2:

[August]

Here's me thinking this thread was about a terrorist attack on Paris :hmm2:

What, instead of all this racist hate speech against Italians? :hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

Rome. Why hell when you can be an empire :D
:hmmm: Not on the African continent!



And if you don't believe they're cowards, check the battle of Caporetto where this happened:Caporetto was nuthin!

What, instead of all this racist hate speech against Italians? :hmmm: In an Ethiopian accent BBY Here's me thinking this thread was about a terrorist attack on Paris

Little Big Horn 1876 + Isandlwana 1879 =Adowa 1896 The world war against little brown people doesn't always go according to plan... and at Paris the little brown people (post colonial middle east) struck back (whew back on thread)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1e/ItaloAbyssinianWarpainting.JPGThis was the biggest defeat suffered by the Europeans since Hannibal and it signaled the beginning of the end of European colonialism. Of course the Italians simply broke rule one of warfare: You do not take on GOD; Miraculously, Ethiopia's leader, King Menelik, defeated the Italian army at Adowa on March 1, 1896, carrying for divine protection what Christian Ethiopians claim to this day was the actual Ark of the Covenant, purportedly still housed at St. Mary’s Church in Axum. The bastards in Paris are only in it for 72 virgins apiece....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adwa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adwa)

[Betonov]

What, instead of all this racist hate speech against Italians? :hmmm:

I can't be racist to Italians. We're both caucasian.
And I can't hate Italians. That would mean I'm growing fond of them.

Ugh, my generations long tribal hatred for the pasta eater has derailed this thread too much. I should stop.

[Aktungbby]

Ugh, my generations long tribal hatred for the pasta eater has derailed this thread too much. I should stop.HUH! The facts say otherwise http://www.euromonitor.com/pasta-in-slovenia/report (http://www.euromonitor.com/pasta-in-slovenia/report) Pasta is a mature category and is considered a staple product in Slovenia with consumers largely acting as if on auto-pilot when deciding which brand to buy. Due to its long-term presence in Slovenia and well-established brand name, Barilla Adriatik led pasts with 25% value share in 2014. It retained its share unchanged from 2013 due to its many price promotions and other marketing activities. Chef making zlikrofi pasta a lokal speciality in Idrija Slovenia http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/cheef-making-zlikrofi-pasta-lokal-speciality-idrija-slovenia-58530704.jpg (http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/cheef-making-zlikrofi-pasta-lokal-speciality-idrija-slovenia-58530704.jpg):O:

[Betonov]

Hey, we like a good idea and then make it better :)

[Nippelspanner]

I can't be racist to Italians. We're both caucasian.
And I can't hate Italians. That would mean I'm growing fond of them.

Ugh, my generations long tribal hatred for the pasta eater has derailed this thread too much. I should stop.
Do you really hate Italians, or do I miss some irony or sarcasm somewhere?

[Betonov]

No sarcasm here. Had to deal with them for too long.

[Nippelspanner]

No sarcasm here. Had to deal with them for too long.
With all ~60.000.000 of them?

I am surprised to read something so shallow and ignorant from someone who, in my opinion, is one of the smarter/more educated people here and who also often writes from a most neutral and humane standpoint without falling for this kind of... silliness.
No offense, just an observation since I'm sincerely surprised. :hmmm:

[Betonov]

59,999,999 of them, I love Laura Pausini.

I know that makes me shallow and ignorant and complete opposite of what my reputation on this forum is. But I do have an evil side.

My hatred for the Italians is more of a passive nature. I'd stop if an italain would have car problems, do CPR on an italian with a heart attack, I'd even give a stranded pasta tourist a few euros to buy himself a ticket home with the knowledge I'd never ever see that money again. Tuscany is on my bucket list and the Medici dynasty is one I revere.
But I feel a deep distrust, unease, resentment towards them, knowing how they operate, knowing that the west made them the romantic descendants of Rome riding Vespas and me the dirty Slav while the truth is completely different.
I don't hate the 59,999,999 individual Italians. I hate the romantic wiew about the most backstabbing nation ever.
Remember, I'm a Slav living next to Italy. I'm a dog to them. And they never hide that when they're here.

[Commander Wallace]

59,999,999 of them, I love Laura Pausini.

I know that makes me shallow and ignorant and complete opposite of what my reputation on this forum is. But I do have an evil side.

My hatred for the Italians is more of a passive nature.

I'm sorry that you were made to feel lesser . I had never heard the term dirty slav but I don't live there either. In my view, no ethnic group is better than another, just different . Everyone has their own gifts and talents within whatever ethnic group they belong to.

I don't think you are ignorant or shallow as you have called yourself. I know that your area has seen a lot of violence with regards to Bos & Herz.

Consider what Nipplespanner said and consider this as well. Germany was in ruins after WW2. If ignorance and hatred had prevailed after WW2, Germany wouldn't have become the economic powerhouse or anchor with regards to stability it is now in Europe. Germany usually is the voice of reason in world affairs.


Indifference breeds contempt and hatred. Hatred is the driving force in war. War is what kills people .

[Alex]

But I feel a deep distrust, unease, resentment towards them, knowing how they operate, knowing that the west made them the romantic descendants of Rome riding Vespas and me the dirty Slav while the truth is completely different.
At least you're no dirty Slav in France. In fact Slovenia got a pretty good fame in here, in terms of lovely landscapes, nature and this kind of thing. :03:

Question is : all in all, who's been making them Italians look that way, and who's got to portray each one of us in Europe a certain way, most of the time a funny way (except for the Germans), the average French being a frog legs eater fond of food and loving cheese, the average Italian being the kind of person you described, the average German being an extraordinary car manufacturer wearing a big moustache as soon as History and politics get to be discussed, etc. ?

And don't you think the fact you're getting mad towards those little raviolis is a bit unfair considering they gained this kind of reputation only due to... Hollywood ? :haha:

[Aktungbby]

I don't hate the 59,999,999 individual Italians. I hate the romantic wiew about the most backstabbing nation ever.
Remember, I'm a Slav living next to Italy. I'm a dog to them. And they never hide that when they're here.
Hey your idea has caught on in Teheran!:O:https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/mideast_iran.jpg?quality=100&strip=all&w=664&h=441&crop=1The slogan “Death to America” is not aimed at the American people, but rather American policies, Iran’s supreme leader said in comments reported on his official website Tuesday....Khamenei says the “aim of the slogan is not death to American people. The slogan means death to US policies and arrogance.” The slogan has “strong support” In Iran, he said. :hmmm: HOW AKBAR ALLAHSURING IS THAT??!!:doh:http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/5639a5931800002b00303c45.jpeg

[Betonov]

At least you're no dirty Slav in France. In fact Slovenia got a pretty good fame in here, in terms of lovely landscapes, nature and this kind of thing. :03:



The history between France and Slovenia is criminaly underrated.
Historically Bonaparte was the first Slovene liberator. The Illyrian provinces, while a vassal to France, was the first whiff of freedom we got as a nation.

[August]

At least you're no dirty Slav in France. In fact Slovenia got a pretty good fame in here, in terms of lovely landscapes, nature and this kind of thing. :03:

Question is : all in all, who's been making them Italians look that way, and who's got to portray each one of us in Europe a certain way, most of the time a funny way (except for the Germans), the average French being a frog legs eater fond of food and loving cheese, the average Italian being the kind of person you described, the average German being an extraordinary car manufacturer wearing a big moustache as soon as History and politics get to be discussed, etc. ?

And don't you think the fact you're getting mad towards those little raviolis is a bit unfair considering they gained this kind of reputation only due to... Hollywood ? :haha:

Hey don't blame that on Hollywood. Those stereotypes were all created by Europeans themselves.

[Betonov]

Hey don't blame that on Hollywood. Those stereotypes were all created by Europeans themselves.

And then butchered, repackaged and sold by Hollywood and you believed every word in every movie ever wrong about Europe.

[Nippelspanner]

And then butchered, repackaged and sold...
Sounds very American to me... :D

[August]

And then butchered, repackaged and sold by Hollywood and you believed every word in every movie ever wrong about Europe.

Says the guy spouting racist garbage about Italians. That Hollywoods fault too?

[Nippelspanner]

Says the guy spouting racist garbage about Italians. That Hollywoods fault too?
"Italian" is still not a race, August.

[August]

"Italian" is still not a race, August.

Close enough for this discussion.

[Schroeder]

Oh come on guys, this isn't the right thread for all of this. Let's stay on topic please before the mods get the locks and yellow cards out.:-?

[Aktungbby]

Here's me thinking this thread was about a terrorist attack on Paris :hmm2:

The world war against little brown people doesn't always go according to plan... and at Paris the little brown people (post colonial middle east) struck back (whew back on thread)

Oh come on guys, this isn't the right thread for all of this. Let's stay on topic please before the mods get the locks and yellow cards out.:-?

INDEED after the friendliest of 'nudges' from the moderator; let's cease this Romin' around and just get back to being galling... north of the Alps! :/\\!!

[Betonov]

Close enough for this discussion.

A lot of things are close enough for discussion for Americans. Like medieval times and 21st century Europe.


Back on topic:

This is bad for us
Several weapons used by militants during the Paris attacks were made in Serbia in the late 1980s, the head of a Serbian arms factory has said.
Milojko Brzakovic, director of the Zastava Arms factory, said they checked the serial numbers of around eight rifles received from police.
The M70 assault rifles were part of a batch sent to military depots in Slovenia, Bosnia and Macedonia, Mr Brzakovic told the Reuters news agency
"There's no doubt they were produced by us, we were the only producer then, and we have serial numbers of everything we ever produced, but in the 1990s anyone could get a hold of them in army depots," Mr Brzakovic told Reuters
The M70 rifle is a modified Yugoslav version of the Soviet AK47.
Zastava Arms, based in the town of Kragujevac and previously known as Zavodi Crvena Zastava, served as the only state arsenal for small arms for the now-defunct communist-era Yugoslav army and police.
After the Balkan wars of the 1990s, many military weapons stayed in the hands of citizens.
Many of these weapons have found their way to Western Europe by being smuggled in small quantities, says Nils Duquet of the Flemish Peace Institute

Source: BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34954048) and slovene media

A lot of weapons that the Yugoslav army left behind in Slovenia was sold off by some political top dogs of the time, most notably mentioned is former PM Janez Janša :nope:
I hope he gets a guilt trip and hangs himself.

[August]

A lot of things are close enough for discussion for Americans. Like medieval times and 21st century Europe.

That's because Americans by and large really don't want to care about the Old Worlds self created ethnic problems and hatreds. Our European ancestors (those of us who have European ancestors) fled that continent to get away from all that. So maybe your ethnic hatreds are not racism per se but they are indeed close enough.

[Aktungbby]

That's because Americans by and large really don't want to care about the Old Worlds self created ethnic problems and hatreds. Our European ancestors (those of us who have European ancestors) fled that continent to get away from all that. So maybe your ethnic hatreds are not racism per se but they are indeed close enough.
Well there are still occasional signs: "IRISH need not Apply" in the good ol USA!:O:

[Commander Wallace]

That's because Americans by and large really don't want to care about the Old Worlds self created ethnic problems and hatreds. Our European ancestors (those of us who have European ancestors) fled that continent to get away from all that. So maybe your ethnic hatreds are not racism per se but they are indeed close enough.

Well said. :up: