Cargo Ship Missing in Hurricane Joaquin

[iambecomelife]

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story/news/local/2015/10/02/coast-guard-loses-contact-with-container-ship-in-hurricane-joaquin/73203942/

No word from this ship for quite a few hours...at this point, everyone is hoping it's just a communications failure. I wonder if any subsimmers with nautical experience could say how likely it is that a modern ship could lose all comms?

She's 40 years old and part RO/RO, like the "Estonia" and "Herald of Free Enterprise". 33 crewmembers. Last report said they had flooding and a 15 degree list.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/iambecomelife/151002-el-faro-mn-1655_fd09326e555bd75a6b61f4fdbe8ade40_nbcnews-ux-2880-1000.jpg~original

[Jimbuna]

Judging by the last report and the fact no new updates are forthcoming I'd be fearing the worst. Hopefully this will have a good ending and she will be sighted soon.

[Oberon]

Nasty, a RO/RO in swells like that...not a good combination. Here's hoping the crew are safe.

[Kapitan]

Worked on similar vessels she isn't like the Herald or Estonia as she loads from the stern only so in a way she is pretty safe.

But knowing what they are like sea keeping wise I would be fearing the worst.

[Aktungbby]

The vessel has 391 containers topside and 294 trucks and trailers below deck. That cargo makes the listing problems even worse at sea, The Coast Guard is "very concerned" about the ship and is doing everything it can to locate it. Listing was at 15 degrees in 20-30 seas, force 4-5, and 'taking on water' with no power...:ping:
at that list the load will begin to shift. Don't the free-fall orange (Captain Phillips) life boats have radios or reliable position transponders? The ones in the photo are not enclosed type https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Freefall_lifeboat.JPG/220px-Freefall_lifeboat.JPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Freefall_lifeboat.JPG) but I don't know photo date. http://photos.marinetraffic.com/ais/showphoto.aspx?photoid=734310

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

At my understanding SOLAS and other regulations require all commercial vessels to have EPIRBs (Emergency Position-Indicating Radio Beacon) which should activate and deploy automatically when submerged. Ofcourse if ship rolled over completely before they could deploy...

[Kapitan]

Even if the ship rolls over EPIRB will deploy and transmit

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Even if the ship rolls over EPIRB will deploy and transmitYes, they should. The ESTONIA was equipped with two modern EPIRB buoys (Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons) of type Kannad 406 F.
The last check of the radio beacons was reported to have been made about one week prior to the disaster by the radio operator. The check confirmed that the EPIRBs were in full working order and it has to be assumed that both were left in "switched-on" condition after the test.
Nevertheless, no signals from the two buoys were received in the course of the rescue operation.From this (http://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/estonia%20final%20report/22.2+3+4.htm) source, although I have heard this before and if I'm not mistaken it was stated in official report as well.

Buoys not being able to clear the sinking ship is most plausible scenario I can come up with. If someone has better explanation, please throw in your two cents.

EDIT: Previous statement is ofcourse assuming the ship has been lost. Hopefully it hasn''t and this is just an unusual communications problem.

[mapuc]

I truly hope they will find the crew in some lifeboat or similar, thirsty and hungry but alive

Markus

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

El Faro, Cargo Ship Carrying 28 Americans, Believed to Have Sunk (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/el-faro-cargo-ship-carrying-28-americans-believed-have-sunk-n438466)

Authorities believe a cargo ship missing since Thursday with 33 crewmen aboard was lost at sea and believed to have sunk in the teeth of Hurricane Joaquin, NBC News has learned.
The families of the crew, including 28 Americans, have been notified. The U.S. Coast Guard said at a news conference Monday morning that it will continue to search for survivors.
The El Faro was likely swallowed by the Category 4 hurricane at its last known location Thursday on the way to San Juan, Puerto Rico, said Coast Guard Captain Mike Fedor. The remnants of the ship are likely 15,000 feet underwater, he said.
On Sunday afternoon, a Coast Guard search vessel had found a 225-square-mile "debris field" of wood, cargo and other items. Fedor said crews also discovered human remains in a survival suit during their search for the ship, but they were "unidentifiable." ---

[iambecomelife]

El Faro, Cargo Ship Carrying 28 Americans, Believed to Have Sunk (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/el-faro-cargo-ship-carrying-28-americans-believed-have-sunk-n438466)


It's looking more grim with every update, although I still hope some of them got off...after all, some survivors in WWII spent months adrift with much more primitive lifeboats than the El Faro's.

If not, then this would be the first major US cargo ship disaster since the "Marine Electric" (correct me if I'm wrong).

In the days to come, hopefully we can find out what went wrong with the ocean routing service or the ship itself. I suppose we must never assume bad things can't happen to a large, modern ship.

[August]

Eternal Father strong to save
Whose arm has bound the restless wave
Who bids the mighty ocean deep
It's own appointed limits keep
O hear us when we cry to Thee
For those in Peril on the sea

[Jimbuna]

Certainly not looking good.

[Kapitain Oliver Leinkraunt]

For the italian news, the cargo is with no doubts sunk; but is possible (however unlikely) that some crew people are survived.

[Jeff-Groves]

Let's see.
That would be the Bermuda Triangle area?
In a Hurricane?
:hmmm:

Cue Twilight Zone music!
:o

[Aktungbby]

Actually I looked that up and I thinks it's north of the triangle... but not by much; depending on which debris field your considering.

[August]

The Bermuda Triangle is famous for making ships and planes disappear without a trace. I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean leaving a debris field 250 miles wide complete with floating bodies.

[iambecomelife]

Well, they called off the search. One body found, and they didn't even recover it. Not how I hoped things would end.

[Jeff-Groves]

The Bermuda Triangle is famous for making ships and planes disappear without a trace. I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean leaving a debris field 250 miles wide complete with floating bodies.
Search resources are a lot better now days.
How do any of us know other ships didn't leave massive traces in the past?
And maybe the Triangle is taunting us now.
Would be the kind of thing something like that would do.
'Just when you think you know? BLAM!! New stuff!!'
:haha:

[Sailor Steve]

Of course all this discussion assumes that the "Bermuda Triangle" is anything more than a myth. No more ships and planes have disappeared there than in any other part of any ocean, anywhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_Triangle

[Jimbuna]

Well, they called off the search. One body found, and they didn't even recover it. Not how I hoped things would end.

Tragic :nope:

[August]

One body found, and they didn't even recover it.

There are conflicting reports about that.

Only about a third of the reports say it wasn't recovered and the rest say it was. I have to believe that leaving a body behind to float God knows where would cause no small amount of public angst. On the other hand no matter how mangled it was a DNA test would pretty quickly identify a body given that they know who is related to the crew and I haven't heard about any post mortems or other examinations.

[Aktungbby]

Ro/ros have wide vehicle decks. They are essentially parking lots at sea. The wide and open decks are necessary for efficiently driving vehicles on and off the ships. The problem is that even moderate flooding of the vehicle deck can dramatically destabilize a ro/ro. The sloshing of the water on the vehicle deck, referred to as the “free surface effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_surface_effect),” can cause the ship to capsize rapidly and without warning. Other Ro/RO's:....water on the vehicle deck caused the ship to capsize in 90 seconds, not long after leaving the dock. 193 passengers and crew were lost. In 1994, the passenger ro/ro Estonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Estonia) capsized and sank with more than 900 lives lost when the bow door was torn off by heavy seas. In 2004, the ro/ro car carrier Baltic Ace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Baltic_Ace) capsized and sank in 15 minutes following a collision with a container ship in the North Sea.
Between 90 seconds and fifteen minutes in supremely heavy 30' seas with 100+ mph ferocious wind and no power I don't see how any one got off in a swift capsize event particular to this type of vessel. Clambering into a survival suit or a lifeboat takes time.....http://www.oldsaltblog.com/2015/10/el-faro-a-roro-not-a-container-ship-and-why-that-mattered/ (http://www.oldsaltblog.com/2015/10/el-faro-a-roro-not-a-container-ship-and-why-that-mattered/)

[Jeff-Groves]

Of course all this discussion assumes that the "Bermuda Triangle" is anything more than a myth. No more ships and planes have disappeared there than in any other part of any ocean, anywhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_Triangle
What? You linked that as the definitive source?
:o
:har:

[Aktungbby]

well actually Steve's link hold up pretty well considering the topic( I used it myself) ; here's another;:o http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/01/myth-bermuda-triangle/ (http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/01/myth-bermuda-triangle/) http://www.todayifoundout.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/bermuda-triangle-340x340.jpg (http://www.todayifoundout.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/bermuda-triangle.jpg)

[iambecomelife]

Between 90 seconds and fifteen minutes in supremely heavy 30' seas with 100+ mph ferocious wind and no power I don't see how any one got off in a swift capsize event particular to this type of vessel. Clambering into a survival suit or a lifeboat takes time.....http://www.oldsaltblog.com/2015/10/el-faro-a-roro-not-a-container-ship-and-why-that-mattered/ (http://www.oldsaltblog.com/2015/10/el-faro-a-roro-not-a-container-ship-and-why-that-mattered/)


Yes; I once got a good look at a RO-RO ship in my local port that had its doors open. I was amazed at how much open space was below decks. I also thought of what a serious problem it would be if it suffered any flooding, unlike other types of ships with more watertight compartments.

Given that at least one person managed to put on a survival suit, I'd imagine the crew of "El Faro" knew for a few minutes that she was about to go down. OTOH she could have floated for a long time disabled before sinking, like the "Munchen" in 1978. We may never know.

http://www.bremerhaven.de/medien/287/lash%20muenchen_perspektive_engler_700px.jpg

[Catfish]

Looking at modern ships, it strikes me how ungainly and somehow less seaworthy they seem to be. RoRo ships were never good ships when it came to storms, but the new overloaded container ships with 5 or more levels of containers above the upper deck ... just look at the underwater body compared to this load. :doh:

Ok we all obviously "need" south korean and chinese goods, and it all has to be cheap. But all this comes at a cost.
I remember when the "Herald of free Enterprise" [sic!] sank, in the channel, due to sub-standard front doors not being up to wear and weather. It all is an economic question, it seldom is about security. Then new modern cruise ships have not enough life boats, for all passengers, and they have other standards, than the merchant 'navy'..


Regarding the "Bermuda triangle" i am not one to believe in myths or paranormal events. What has been once said is that the break-up of frozen methane-hydrates may cause sinkings, and also the loss of planes under certain conditions.

[Aktungbby]

Between 90 seconds and fifteen minutes in supremely heavy 30' seas with 100+ mph ferocious wind and no power I don't see how any one got off in a swift capsize event particular to this type of vessel. Clambering into a survival suit or a lifeboat takes time.....http://www.oldsaltblog.com/2015/10/el-faro-a-roro-not-a-container-ship-and-why-that-mattered/ (http://www.oldsaltblog.com/2015/10/el-faro-a-roro-not-a-container-ship-and-why-that-mattered/)

Yes; I once got a good look at a RO-RO ship in my local port that had its doors open. I was amazed at how much open space was below decks. I also thought of what a serious problem it would be if it suffered any flooding, unlike other types of ships with more watertight compartments.

Given that at least one person managed to put on a survival suit, I'd imagine the crew of "El Faro" knew for a few minutes that she was about to go down. OTOH she could have floated for a long time disabled before sinking, like the "Munchen" in 1978. We may never know.


Apologies: My point is illustrated by the pictures also per the wiki site: two suits are required: one at the berth/bunk and at the work station. http://www.setsail.com/survival-training-part-5-immersion-suits/ (http://www.setsail.com/survival-training-part-5-immersion-suits/) Pics in this link show a tedious process; and I've climbed into similar 'dry' scuba suits myself ...very slow methodical process. Under two minutes is good. Now add the waves, apprehension and the wind and just clearing a rotating 700 ft vessel (capsizing) into the equation. http://www.setsail.com/images/stories/dashew/survive_1-244-edit.jpghttp://www.setsail.com/images/stories/dashew/survive_raft-82-edit.jpg

[Sailor Steve]

What? You linked that as the definitive source?
:o
:har:
Before you mockingly dismiss the source out of hand, I suggest you check his sources. They are valid and specific. The "Bermuda Triangle" is a myth, pure and simple.

[Jeff-Groves]

Before you mockingly dismiss the source out of hand, I suggest you check his sources. They are valid and specific. The "Bermuda Triangle" is a myth, pure and simple.

What I 'mockingly dismiss' is one that can't see a tongue in cheek joke.
Sorry I wasted your valuable post time.

[Sailor Steve]

What I 'mockingly dismiss' is one that can't see a tongue in cheek joke.
Sorry I wasted your valuable post time.
Well, you got me there. I readily admit to being pedantic and often missing the joke. It sounded to me like another slam at Wiki and at me for using it.

You didn't waste anything, and I apologize for missing your intent.

[Catfish]

....http://www.oldsaltblog.com/2015/10/el-faro-a-roro-not-a-container-ship-and-why-that-mattered/ (http://www.oldsaltblog.com/2015/10/el-faro-a-roro-not-a-container-ship-and-why-that-mattered/)

Very good link, thanks!

I still wonder, when looking at this 1975 RoRo ship: Even if there are no bulkheads, this cargo weight distribution alone (vehicles below the deck and containers on the deck way up look like an invitation for disaster to happen. Not only the weight but regarding wind pressure on the stapled containers, adding to a listing already caused by taking on water, and lose cargo piling up at one side. The ship als seems to have had a lot of openings for venting the lower vehicle decks, all along the hull.

A link, from the link above: Admiral Nimitz's Pacific Fleet Confidential Letter on Lessons of Damage in Typhoon:
http://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/p/pacific-typhoon-18-december-1944/admiral-nimitzs-pacific-fleet-confidential-letter-on-lessons-of-damage-in-typhoon.html


Anyway it is tragic.

[Aktungbby]

[
A link, from the link above: Admiral Nimitz's Pacific Fleet Confidential Letter on Lessons of Damage in Typhoon:
http://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/p/pacific-typhoon-18-december-1944/admiral-nimitzs-pacific-fleet-confidential-letter-on-lessons-of-damage-in-typhoon.html


Anyway it is tragic.[/QUOTE]
^ Testimony that the ships lost took a long roll to leeward, varying from 50 to 80, hung there a little while, and then went completely over, floating a short time before going down. About 790 officers and men were lost or killed, and 80 were injured. Several surviving destroyers reported rolling 70 or more; and we can only surmise how close this was to capsizing completely for some of them. It was the greatest loss that we have taken in the Pacific without compensatory return since the First Battle of Savo. This one gets get swept under the carpet of history. In conclusion, both seniors and juniors alike must realize that in bad weather, as in most other situations, safety and fatal hazard are not separated by any sharp boundary line, but shade gradually from one into the other. There is no little red light which is going to flash on and inform commanding officers or higher commanders that from then on there is extreme danger from the weather, and that measures for ships' safety must now take precedence over further efforts to keep up with the formation or to execute the assigned task. This time will always be a matter of personal judgment. Naturally no commander is going to cut thin the margin between staying afloat and foundering, but he may nevertheless unwittingly pass the danger point even though no ship is yet in extremis. Just eerie from 70 years ago! The El Faro's "little red light", the 'free surface effect' and her captain's judgment coupled with/to an apparent engine/power failure passed the dangerpoint unwittingly. This is the more appalling as the weather reporting in the present age is far superior to that of WWII.

[Jeff-Groves]

Well, you got me there. I readily admit to being pedantic and often missing the joke. It sounded to me like another slam at Wiki and at me for using it.

You didn't waste anything, and I apologize for missing your intent.
I have a strange sense of humor that many miss at times so I'm at fault myself.
:haha:

I don't really believe in the triangle myth by the way.
I do question SOME Wiki posted links to be honest though.

Not saying you do it but some use them as a lazy way to 'prove' a fact that ends up not being fact.

[Sailor Steve]

I have a strange sense of humor that many miss at times so I'm at fault myself.
:haha:

My initial reaction was mostly based on the fact that I had one serious troll use the same tactic.

I do question SOME Wiki posted links to be honest though. I question pretty much everything. I use Wiki mostly as a starting point, especially when it concerns something I've read before but can't find in a hurry. It's easy enough do more research for backup once the original intent is there. I've also been a part of Wiki's correction process from time to time, and still nag them about mistakes I've discovered.

Not saying you do it but some use them as a lazy way to 'prove' a fact that ends up not being fact.I probably do do it. I do everything else wrong, so why not that?

[Aktungbby]

I have a strange sense of humor that many miss at times so I'm at fault myself.


I do question SOME Wiki posted links to be honest though.

Not saying you do it but some use them as a lazy way to 'prove' a fact that ends up not being fact.
Hey I resemble that remark(s)! actually I challenge all sources 'till my comfort level is assuaged?!! "TRUST NO ONE: IT SAVES ENERGY"-me:timeout:


I probably do do it. I do everything else wrong, so why not that? Well, we're all a little do-do around here ...and having a better day than the El Faro crew to boot!:/\\!! As long as Jeff's got breathing apparatus and your holding the stair railing with a pizza in one hand and I just stay at home indoors (fewer moving parts:know:)... tomorrow could be another day! :03:

[Jeff-Groves]

Dang it Steve! Can I say I'm sorry without you saying "I'm sorry!"?
:haha:
Then Aktung comes in with "We're all sorry blah, blah, blah."
:03:

And We start again over 'splainin why We are sorry!
:har:

(NOTE!! This is ALL INTENDED AS TOUNGE IN CHEEK!!)
:03:

[Oberon]

They found her

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-34691321

[iambecomelife]

They finally found the "Black Box", which will hopefully clarify what went wrong:

http://www.today.com/video/el-faro-s-black-box-found-will-secrets-from-sunken-ship-be-revealed-674611779672

[Rockstar]

I can tell ya what went wrong, the ship sunk. Why is what I would like to see investigated and then hang the owners and captain for allowing time and money to overrule common sense and good seamanship.