Night attack suggestions

[Tshark]

Hi Gang,

Looking for some suggestions here. I am in an early career mode and have found a convoy to attack. The problem I have is that during the day I have heavy fog that cuts down visual range too close to arm torpedoes. At night the fog lifts so that I can visually get an outline of the ships, but I do have heavy seas making a periscope attack almost impossible. I have tried a surface attack with TBT, but found that the TBT will not lock on a target (even though I can identify it well enough to match the identification manual). Hence, I can't get a range/speed and there are no range updates on the chart to do a three minute plot. By the time I get close enough for range/speed on target they are too close to attack. I figured I would try a sonar attack, but apparently my early year sub is only equipped with hydrophones. Every time I try to get a range I get the message "no target selected". Without a range I can't plot speed so an underwater sound attack appears out of the question.

Any suggestions on how to attack this convoy?

[Rockin Robbins]

Okay, so you don't have radar. You can find the front corner position nearest you by sitting off to the side of the convoy. Ping them so you have a position point to plot on your nav map. You'll have to use the pencil and put the position on there yourself. Wait 3 minutes and do it again. The number of hundred yards between the two positions is the speed, connecting the positions and extending the line in the direction of travel gives you the speed.

Now it's time to position yourself ahead of the track, about 700 yards off and at right angles to the course. Ask your sonar man to track the closest contact and he should pick the front guy on your side. Listen around to verify. Then let him track again. Set up your TDC for AoB 80º starboard or port depending on what side of your sub they are coming from. If they're coming left to right (port to starboard) it's a starboard AoB. If they come starboard to port it's a port AoB. Enter the speed into the TDC. Make sure there is some range other than zero in the TDC first. Sight the periscope up 10º or 350º (toward the side they're coming from) and press the send range/bearing to TDC. You're ready to shoot.

Sit out there between 500 and 700 yards from the track, approaching at right angles. Listen to your sonar operator. If he's coming from left to right when the TDC operator says "Bearing 348" shoot one. When he says "bearing 351" shoot one. If he's coming from right to left, when he says "bearing 12" shoot one and when he says "bearing 9" shoot one.

Listen to him blow up and sink.

[Crannogman]

Hi Gang,

Looking for some suggestions here. I am in an early career mode and have found a convoy to attack. The problem I have is that during the day I have heavy fog that cuts down visual range too close to arm torpedoes. At night the fog lifts so that I can visually get an outline of the ships, but I do have heavy seas making a periscope attack almost impossible. I have tried a surface attack with TBT, but found that the TBT will not lock on a target (even though I can identify it well enough to match the identification manual). Hence, I can't get a range/speed and there are no range updates on the chart to do a three minute plot. By the time I get close enough for range/speed on target they are too close to attack. I figured I would try a sonar attack, but apparently my early year sub is only equipped with hydrophones. Every time I try to get a range I get the message "no target selected". Without a range I can't plot speed so an underwater sound attack appears out of the question.

Any suggestions on how to attack this convoy?

You could shadow it until the weather improves...

To ping, as you said, you first need to select a target. You can tell your sonarman to follow the closest contact, then tell him to get the range

[Tshark]

Thanks for the quick replies guys! I did watch RR's "Dick O'Kane Sonar attack" video a couple times and made some attempts before posting. The problem was that the video shows range info available at 9000+ yards. I kept getting no ping return and "no target selected". So I increased time and when I finally did get a sonar range it was around 1100 yards. It just wasn't enough time to take the shot. I decided to back off the time acceleration, leaving it "1". I now get sonar range info just below 4400 yards. Still close, but certainly workable now. I don't know if this difference in range from the video is due to the bad weather topside, multiple contacts, an earlier model boat, or maybe a mod.

In any case my first attack with sonar range at around 4000 yds allowed me to setup and score two hits, one dud, and one miss. So to RR, your method works great, there are just some differences in distances and time available for the shoot.

[merc4ulfate]

I ran into a similar situation. I know the active sonar should work and I would ping like mad on a single merchant and even at 400 yards I never got a reply on range. It was weird. I knew it was there , it was clear skies and yet I could never get an echo on the closer vessel.

[ColonelSandersLite]

but I do have heavy seas making a periscope attack almost impossible.

You're talking about waves washing out the periscope right? Use the depth gauge to raise your sub a few feet.

[Tshark]

Thanks Col. I did try that, but current weather conditions in the game prevent me from confirming a visual identification. I position the attack so that I can visually identify the ship outline and can match it to the recognition manual. Unfortunately, the game will not allow me to confirm mast height or update my chart until the target is within 300 yds so visual methods of speed/course determination are out. This happens with the TBT or periscope. My only success so far has been submerged with sonar. Even this has been a challenge, because sometimes I will get a pinged range and other times I do not (this happens even pinging back to back). Luckily I have a saved game that puts me right on the convoy approach, so I am going to do some experimenting with the sonar and see if I can increase its effectiveness.

[Tshark]

I have found a couple tips that make the sonar more accurate.

1) If you fail to get a ping return then adjust your hydrophone direction. If you have the bearing tool mod and contact plotting on the chart then go by the bearing displayed on the chart and NOT by your ears. As little as one degree can prevent a return at the longer ranges.

2) Try to take sonar readings at around 90ft of depth. The closer you are to the surface in bad weather the less likely you will get a return on your ping due to surface clutter. Remember that below 99ft you cannot fire torpedoes.

3) When pinging at long distance LISTEN for the return. The range dial only goes to 5000yds. So after the range needle sweeps back to "0" you will hear the return. The click on the range button and you will get a reported range in excess of the 5000yds.

The convoy I have been attacking has two escorts, but multiple pings has not tipped them off to my location. It is not realistic, but it does help the learning.

Hope this helps.

[Rockin Robbins]

I have found a couple tips that make the sonar more accurate.

1) If you fail to get a ping return then adjust your hydrophone direction. If you have the bearing tool mod and contact plotting on the chart then go by the bearing displayed on the chart and NOT by your ears. As little as one degree can prevent a return at the longer ranges.

Tshark, make your sonar operator give you the bearing, adjust the sonar to that bearing and then ping. You'll NEVER not get a return. You can press the "send range" or "send bearing" switches even before you get a return and the numbers will be sent to your TDC.

2) Try to take sonar readings at around 90ft of depth. The closer you are to the surface in bad weather the less likely you will get a return on your ping due to surface clutter. Remember that below 99ft you cannot fire torpedoes.
If that's true I've never seen it. I've always got good sonar operation at periscope or even radar depth. I haven't seen evidence that the game reproduces surface clutter at all.

3) When pinging at long distance LISTEN for the return. The range dial only goes to 5000yds. So after the range needle sweeps back to "0" you will hear the return. The click on the range button and you will get a reported range in excess of the 5000yds.
Again you don't have to wait for the return or listen to it at all. Click the range button and it's displayed and sent to TDC.

The convoy I have been attacking has two escorts, but multiple pings has not tipped them off to my location. It is not realistic, but it does help the learning.

Hope this helps.

It is realistic. When they detect a ping it's just like when you do. "I've been PINGED!" and that's it. No blip on the sonar screen, just the info that you've been pinged. With repeat pings they might home in on the direction with their directional passive sonar, and in fact that happened to me and I was charged mightily! They charged up the line but didn't know where on the line I was until they started active pinging.

[Tshark]

Hey RR,

How do you get the sonar operator to give you a bearing if the sound contact is not the closest? I am under the impression that the "send bearing" and "send range" menu keys are for the closest target. I seem to get "no target selected" anytime I use it unless it is the closest target. Sorry for the noob questions I cannot seem to find a very good explanation for the sonar controls.

I did seem to notice better sound return when deeper. I attributed (a.k.a hoped) that the sim had modeled surface clutter. Then again maybe I am just getting better at operating sonar.

Btw - Thank you for giving me the additional "tools" for my Skippers bag o' tricks. My last attack was with aft tubes. I used the "Dick O'Kane sonar" mode for course and speed till the sound contact got lost in my baffles. Then I brought the periscope up high enough to see over the heavy seas and was able to just barely see the outline of the target. Bottom line is I sunk the target by combining both "Dick O'Kane" methods. Had I been restricted to "normal" attack methods I would have had no choice, but to stalk the convoy and hope for better weather.

[Rockin Robbins]

Hey RR,

How do you get the sonar operator to give you a bearing if the sound contact is not the closest? I am under the impression that the "send bearing" and "send range" menu keys are for the closest target.
You're right. That is one of the most frustrating limitations of the game. We can tell our sonar operator to follow the nearest merchant or nearest warship. For some inexplicable reason GFO won't let you follow the nearest warship unless you know the keyboard shortcut, which I don't right now. But TMO has command keys for both.


I seem to get "no target selected" anytime I use it unless it is the closest target. Sorry for the noob questions I cannot seem to find a very good explanation for the sonar controls.

I did seem to notice better sound return when deeper. I attributed (a.k.a hoped) that the sim had modeled surface clutter. Then again maybe I am just getting better at operating sonar.
With sonar, the only way to select a target is to tell your sonar operator to choose the nearest merchant or warship. There's no way to manually select the target you want. It's a big defect in the game. You can understand the game developer's thinking "Why would you shoot at anything but the nearest target?" But sonar isn't just for shooting.

So when you ping something other than the nearest target, selected by the sonar operator, you get "no target selected." And similarly, there is no way to select a target with radar, and no way to enter numbers into the TDC manually for range. If all they fixed was to be able to type ranges into the TDC or turn dials then none of this would mean anything.

So as we have it you have to position your boat so that the nearest target is the one you want if you're going to use sonar or radar.

Btw - Thank you for giving me the additional "tools" for my Skippers bag o' tricks. My last attack was with aft tubes. I used the "Dick O'Kane sonar" mode for course and speed till the sound contact got lost in my baffles. Then I brought the periscope up high enough to see over the heavy seas and was able to just barely see the outline of the target. Bottom line is I sunk the target by combining both "Dick O'Kane" methods. Had I been restricted to "normal" attack methods I would have had no choice, but to stalk the convoy and hope for better weather.
Yes! Success is sweet in difficult conditions. AND in those conditions the sonars of the DDs hunting your sorry butt don't work too good and it's easy to get away. By the way, anything 100 RPM or lower is about equally stealthy, which gives the fleet boat a tremendous advantage over the lowly German U-Boat, which was forced to one knot when silent running. You can get almost 3 knots out of a very stealthy fleet boat. Tell me THAT's not the difference between life and death.

After all your mission isn't to twist and turn slow as molasses waiting for some depth charge to blast you into the next universe. Your mission is to get the Sam Hades out of there, to to the surface and raise hell. A submarine is made to fight, not hide. A hiding sub is worthless to anybody but the enemy. Any moment where your enemy is not terrified that in the next 30 seconds he might find himself blown in a dozen pieces you are not doing your job, sailor!

Time after time I hear U-boat apologists say the U-boat is superior because it dives deeper. Bullhockey! Serving as the injured mouse a cat plays with for a couple hours before he puts you out of your misery is not the submarine's (or lowly U-boat's) function. A submarine is a surface torpedo boat with the ability to submerge when its miserable life depends on it, for the least amount of time possible in order to get back to the surface or periscope depth to be dangerous. Yes, a submarine's job is to be dangerous. Put that right above your captain's bunk. A hiding submarine is not dangerous. Superior hiding ability is a pitiful skill to brag about.