View Full Version : Another airshow plane crash!
Not a good year in the UK..
A Hawker Hunter plane has crashed into several vehicles after coming down at Shoreham Airshow in West Sussex.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34027260
Yeah, I've been mentioning it in the 'What are you doing now' thread, but it looks like Hawker Hunter T. Mk VII WV372 has crashed into cars at the traffic lights by Shoreham airfield, killing at least seven and injuring at least fourteen.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5343/9178709218_dd336b010f_b.jpg
A video of her in happier times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2OZs81Gspc
Here is a video of the impact (there is no sound):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvHplYmh2f8&feature=youtu.be
Initial reports indicated the pilot had been pulled from the wreckage but these reports were quickly pulled indicating that they were incorrect.
Meanwhile, the Daily Fail:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNBJv6KXAAAvNPA.jpg:large
:nope: Gutter press at its best there.
Tchocky
08-22-15, 10:55 AM
They were one word away from decency :roll:
Commander Wallace
08-22-15, 01:42 PM
It's easy to forget how dangerous flying combat aircraft can be since so many skilled pilots do it day in and day out. Condolences to the families
of the pilot and those lost on the ground. Best wishes for a speedy recovery for those injured as well.
Just got this from my cousin:
I drove along the A27 en route to my brother's about 30 mins before. Saw the smoke from his house. It's chaos on the roads down here
Apparently the earlier reports about the pilot did seem to have a grain of truth in them as it's been reported that he is in critical condition in hospital.
Tragic event all the way around. My prayers go out for all who were involved in this sad event.
The picture making most of the headlines tomorrow:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03415/crash-Shoreham-Air_3415985b.jpg
Shocking, absolutely shocking... :nope:
Reminds me of the time the Air Florida flight left Reagan National Airport during a winter storm, wings iced up and it pancaked right on top of cars on the 14th Street bridge, poor folks never knew what hit them, sadly just like this accident.
BossMark
08-23-15, 05:29 AM
And the pilot survived the carnage all though he is in a bad way, my thoughts with all those involved in this sad and bad accident.
HunterICX
08-23-15, 05:56 AM
The picture making most of the headlines tomorrow:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03415/crash-Shoreham-Air_3415985b.jpg
Shocking, absolutely shocking... :nope:
Now that's a sight that comes straight out of a terrible nightmare :nope:
Life is strange, really.
After the Hawker Hunter crash yesterday, the Sea Vixen was already up, ready to do its display, it flew in salute overhead, and a short while after the Vulcan came through in tribute as well. (http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/video-vulcan-flypast-pays-tribute-after-crash-1-6919153)
The last time we had an airshow crash of this magnitude when spectators or people outside of the airshow were involved was in 1952 at Farnborough when a de Havilland 110, the prototype for the Sea Vixen, broke up during a manoeuvre and crashed into the crowd, killing 29 people. There was a pause in the displays while the runway was cleared, and then an aircraft took off and did displays for the crowd.
That aircraft...a prototype Hawker Hunter.
Bookends in a tragic history. :hmmm:
Torplexed
08-23-15, 09:28 AM
Would a plane of this vintage have had a ejection seat? Seems like it would, but maybe the aircraft was demilitarized for civilian airshow use.
Of course, I suppose that would look even worse in retrospect if the pilot bails in a vertical direction and parachutes to safety while his errant plane belly-flops in a major motorway. :dead:
Would a plane of this vintage have had a ejection seat? Seems like it would, but maybe the aircraft was demilitarized for civilian airshow use.
Of course, I suppose that would look even worse in retrospect if the pilot bails in a vertical direction and parachutes to safety while his errant plane belly-flops in a major motorway. :dead:
The original had a Mk2 Martin Baker, that may have been upgraded since then, but yes they do have ejection seats, not sure if it's a zero/zero though.
Honestly though I think the pilot was trying to bring the nose up to the last second but the sink rate was just too high.
Really there's two things that I expect the AAIB will be looking at, control failure or pilot error. Either the pilot misjudged his available altitude when he commenced his loop, sadly that is easily done, or the aircraft elevators did not work correctly to make the loop tighter. You can see in the video that there was possibly a stall while he was attempting to pull up out of the dive, so it looks like he had full control, just not enough height.
Must have been a terrible few seconds for him, realising that the aircraft wasn't going to climb up out of the dive, and realising where his flightpath was.
Terribly tragic for all involved.
Stealhead
08-23-15, 09:55 AM
I don't think ejection sets are permitted in a civil aircraft even a demilitarized fighter.
The maintainence would be very cost prohibitive ejection seats and related systems require a lot of routine attention. The rocket motors that power the seats is the biggest issue.
Never mind FAA says that you can have functioning seats in a demilitarized aircraft but they must be fully maintained. So at least in the US you can again though I can see it becoming a cost vs need situation.
Jimbuna
08-23-15, 10:17 AM
Terribly tragic...a few of the gang were there but nowhere near the crash site.
Herr-Berbunch
08-23-15, 10:17 AM
Active ejector seats in civvy aircraft aren't allowed in the UK.
There's been a mid-air collision today at Dittigen airshow in Switzerland, one dead and one parachuted to safety.
https://twitter.com/News_Executive/status/635407463584559104/photo/1
Not the best weekend in aviation, but far from the worst. :-?
Reports on the news over here are saying a number of people on the ground are unaccounted for and the death toll will go higher. As if it needs to get worse.
Jimbuna
08-23-15, 10:49 AM
Active ejector seats in civvy aircraft aren't allowed in the UK.
There's been a mid-air collision today at Dittigen airshow in Switzerland, one dead and one parachuted to safety.
https://twitter.com/News_Executive/status/635407463584559104/photo/1
Not the best weekend in aviation, but far from the worst. :-?
Rgr that :-?
Schroeder
08-23-15, 10:59 AM
Would a plane of this vintage have had a ejection seat? Seems like it would, but maybe the aircraft was demilitarized for civilian airshow use.
Of course, I suppose that would look even worse in retrospect if the pilot bails in a vertical direction and parachutes to safety while his errant plane belly-flops in a major motorway. :dead:
Happened here in Germany with a Canadian F104 in 1983. The plane crashed on a motorway while doing a display with 4 other Starfighters and killed 6 people. The pilot ejected before impact.:-?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_air_show_accidents_and_incidents#1983
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34034430
Looks like 11 dead now.
Active ejector seats in civvy aircraft aren't allowed in the UK.
They are if they're an integral part of the aircraft escape system, in fact it's required for some ex-military aircraft:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%20632%20Permit-to-Fly%20Ex-Military%20Aircraft.pdf
Herr-Berbunch
08-23-15, 11:38 AM
They are if they're an integral part of the aircraft escape system, in fact it's required for some ex-military aircraft:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%20632%20Permit-to-Fly%20Ex-Military%20Aircraft.pdf
Thanks for that. I was always under the impression that was why the Lightning couldn't fly here, turns out I was wrong. :salute:
Thanks for that. I was always under the impression that was why the Lightning couldn't fly here, turns out I was wrong. :salute:
I think the high rate in which they fell out of the sky has a fair bit to do with it. :yep:
Aktungbby
08-23-15, 02:03 PM
Warning: may be distressful: I still remember this baddie(the worst of all?) with 300,000 watching; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG1f3ukUxYI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG1f3ukUxYI) What with the 2011 Reno airshow (10 dead & the 74 year old pilot) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM9WJutgfF4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM9WJutgfF4) and one at nearby 2014 Travis AFB (jeff-grove saw that one?)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI4w2PKL4zk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI4w2PKL4zk) The crash did not kill the 77 year old pilot...the fire did. I tend to stay away-too many old-bold pilots having bad days? There has been no apparent regulatory improvements IMHO:hmmm: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/111102124258-reno-air-race-crash-horizontal-large-gallery.jpg<Reno: The main culprits, according to the National Transportation Safety Board, were several lock nuts on the left trim tab -- an aerodynamic surface on the horizontal part of the plane's tail -- nuts that had not been replaced in at least 26 years. Rule One: any landing you walk away from is good. Rule Two: My day's pleasant outing SHALL remain so...no airshows!
One of our members had a son at the Reno race:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=187930
Herr-Berbunch
08-23-15, 03:42 PM
I've been near to a few crashes, all of which I was oblivious to at the time. The first was a three-ship Jag take off at Coltishall, Sqn Cdr, another high ranker, and a relative new guy. The first two took off fine and the third didn't select reheat and clipped the barrier at the northern end of the runway, tried to eject but seat had moved on impact so he didn't make it. That was my first sobering experience of a station losing a pilot. I was in the Alt Operations Centre (the primary being refurbished) when the station crash alarm sounded, at about the time they tested daily - but there was no tannoy prior, and it didn't stop.
The second was at Pristina airfield, the Russian Minister or Defence was flying in to see his troops and his wingtip struck the runway, but was fortunately safe. His flight out was delayed though.
The third, and the closest I'll hopefully ever get to one was at Brize Norton. I was driving to the mess alongside the runway (road vehicles only on this stretch) and the Red Arrows took off right next to me. Well, eight out of nine did. The remaining one suffered a birdstrike and careered off the runway in my direction. 40 seconds later as I parked up the fire crews were running out the mess from lunch. As I looked back the Hawk had ended up right next to where I'd been. I've just had a quick Google for this incident but I can't find any reference to it at all but I swear it happened! :o
Herr-Berbunch
08-23-15, 03:49 PM
Oh, there was also Gulf Air Flight 072 at Bahrain, I was the only Brit working that night, at the norther end of Muharraq. The Airbus A320 crashed 3 miles off the coast and the first I heard of it was about 30 minutes later when a colleague in a night club phoned to see what was happening. I went outside and the air was filled with blue lights of the police cars, red lights of the ambulances (sadly none needed) and US helicopters all over retrieving the bodies in to the temporary morgue set up right next door to me. In fact it was on 23 August 2000 - exactly 15 years ago today. :o
I had a friend up in Kuwait who was coming down for work/celebrate my birthday (25th) but there was a period of national mourning so very little alcohol could be consumed.
Admiral Halsey
08-23-15, 04:05 PM
Not the best weekend in aviation, but far from the worst. :-?
Quite true and hopefully nothing will ever come close to matching Tenerife.
Jimbuna
08-24-15, 05:34 AM
Quite true and hopefully nothing will ever come close to matching Tenerife.
Possibly still the costliest (in lives ever). Approximately 20 years ago (mid nineties) my lad was watching a documentary on said disaster on the tv and said "Dad, isn't that where we are going?"
We were booked to go to Tenerife on a family holiday a week or so later.
Admiral Halsey
08-25-15, 05:31 PM
Possibly still the costliest (in lives ever). Approximately 20 years ago (mid nineties) my lad was watching a documentary on said disaster on the tv and said "Dad, isn't that where we are going?"
We were booked to go to Tenerife on a family holiday a week or so later.
It still is the deadliest in lives. Closets that came to it was JAL 123 and it was still 43 short. I hate to say it though but if one of the A380's in a single class configuration ever goes down you could be looking at 853 dead not including crew.
Tchocky
08-25-15, 05:57 PM
Doubt we'll ever see an A380 operating in all Y-class, though.
iambecomelife
08-25-15, 08:46 PM
The picture making most of the headlines tomorrow:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03415/crash-Shoreham-Air_3415985b.jpg
Shocking, absolutely shocking... :nope:
Wow..it is eerily similar to a photo I saw of Ramstein, with the moment of impact. I saw a disaster show once, featuring a dad & son who were missed by a whisker...scary stuff.
And I had thought much of Europe was very strict about what can and can't be done at airshows, ever since that disaster? Very sad regardless.
Honestly...we pretty much are, I mean this is the first time in 62 years that something like this has happened...not that you'd think this given some of the medias hysterics about it. The CAA has very strict guidelines about how aircraft are maintained, and the pilots that fly them have to also pass strict tests. I think in this instance a mistake was made somewhere down the line, be it mechanical or human, and a tragedy occurred.
Of course, in this day and age there is no such thing as an 'accident' any more. :nope:
Anyway, the CAA have banned elderly aircraft from doing performances over land now, seaside airshows aren't affected, but land shows will just feature standard flypasts. Which is better than nothing, I'll admit, and a good temporary measure while the AAIB get their report together.
On a slightly more selfish note, I imagine this tragedy will have put to bed any thoughts the XH558 team had of pulling a roll in the Vulcan over the sea before her retirement. Such a shame, as I bet she could have done it just fine.
And a closing thought about the CAAs decision...what qualifies as an elderly aircraft? The Hawks that the Red Arrows fly aren't exactly spring chickens, nor are the Sea Kings that have only just gone out of service for the Search and Rescue forces...and let's face it, the Canberra only stopped flying for the RAF in 2009. I, personally, don't think the aircrafts age is an issue, a well maintained craft can last for decades with no problems, and should a problem develop then it's usually quickly identified and the aircraft grounded. But, equally, it's only a temporary decision, and one taken to placate the media no doubt while the AAIB has a chance to conduct its investigation. The ban can be rescinded when the media are off chasing some other blood trail.
Herr-Berbunch
08-26-15, 02:37 AM
Ramstein had an immediate effect on UK airshows with restrictions on overflying the crowd. All this baying for blood by the media will hopefully not lead to further knee-jerk reactions and restrictions to our elder aircraft. The UK airshow scene is already dying, I remember the times when just about every airfield, both military and civvy, held their own. These inspired the youth to join air cadets, to join the RAF, to learn to fly - to keep the wheel turning. Seaside events are OK, but there's nothing like being a few hundred metres away from a Lightning, Vulcan, B-1B, or even a Typhoon during take off to stir the emotions in that direction. Further restrictions on land based shows are ridiculous, the dead weren't even attending the show. :/\\!!
Jimbuna
08-26-15, 08:27 AM
On a slightly more selfish note, I imagine this tragedy will have put to bed any thoughts the XH558 team had of pulling a roll in the Vulcan over the sea before her retirement. Such a shame, as I bet she could have done it just fine.
I believe that decision has already been taken.
Admiral Halsey
08-26-15, 12:13 PM
Doubt we'll ever see an A380 operating in all Y-class, though.
I don't doubt it'll happen for several reasons. Mainly because with air travel increasing the short haul full load flights will eventually demand one of them. Plus the savings of replacing 3 747's while using 2 A380's on the same route.
I don't doubt it'll happen for several reasons. Mainly because with air travel increasing the short haul full load flights will eventually demand one of them. Plus the savings of replacing 3 747's while using 2 A380's on the same route.
Well, that's been said many times but in fact things have been going the opposite way with high-capacity short haul. The last of the Japanese domestic 747s have been retired, and Boeing even cancelled the dedicated domestic 787-3.
It's mostly because the infrastructural improvements have been outstripping the growth in passenger numbers by a long shot. I think it'll stay that way through the A380s service life (especially if Airbus announce an end to its production, which is looking very likely to happen in the next year at this rate).
Herr-Berbunch
08-28-15, 07:19 AM
Who'd have thought there'd be some common sense journalism!
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/the-a27-is-far-more-dangerous-than-the-aircraft-that-crashed-on-it
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