Meet the Women Who Survived Army’s Ranger School (Navy SEALs Are Next)

[Onkel Neal]

Meet the Women Who Survived Army’s Ranger School (Navy SEALs Are Next)
http://www.defenseone.com/management/2015/08/meet-women-army-ranger-school-navy-seals/119232/

http://cdn.defenseone.com/media/img/upload/2015/08/18/ranger_women3/defense-large.jpg

Their names are 1st Lt. Kristen Griest and Capt. Shaye Haver. They are the first women to ever have completed the U.S. Army Ranger School and on Friday they will affix the “Ranger tab” patch to their shoulders. According to the men who guided them through it, they are the real deal.

On Friday, they will graduate with their class, but still are far from combat. There is an entirely different set of qualifications to gain entry into the 75th Ranger Regiment, the active unit dispatched on the most sensitive and specialized missions.


So, I never served in the military, I have no idea how demanding the standards are. I have been told the standards for Army boot camp are nothing like they used to be. And Air Force, well, it's Air Force. I guess I cannot help but wonder: how tough is it to pass Ranger testing? Is it really damn tough, but these two women are legitimately capable of passing the same standards as male Rangers? If so, congrats to them.

Still, it puzzles me. Compared to high school football; there were never any women willing or able to match up with men. But in the US Army Rangers, even Navy Seals, there are? Hmm...:hmmm:

[james_nix]

Still, it puzzles me. Compared to high school football; there were never any women willing or able to match up with men. But in the US Army Rangers, even Navy Seals, there are? Hmm...:hmmm:

When did you go to high school? The young people of today are a lot different than when we (I'm going to assume you are an old guy like me) went to high school.

[Onkel Neal]

Oh yeah, it's been decades since I was in HS. Do they have competitive girl linebackers now? :huh:

[CCIP]

Still, it puzzles me. Compared to high school football; there were never any women willing or able to match up with men. But in the US Army Rangers, even Navy Seals, there are? Hmm...:hmmm:

I suppose one simple answer to that is that serving in the army is nothing at all like playing football. In fact, there are many qualities that a good football player has which would probably be considered handicaps for a ranger. Good football players (and many other athletes) are almost inevitably huge guys; in many cases, guys who are huge and bulky are at a disadvantage in many military roles (and flat our rejected from others).

The intake requirements for Ranger School, assessed on the first 3 days (of 61) as per wikipedia:

The Ranger Assessment Phase is conducted at Camp Rogers. As of April 2011, it encompasses Days 1–3 of training. Historically, it accounts for 60% of students who fail to graduate Ranger School.[12] Events include:

Ranger Physical Fitness Test (RPFT) requiring the following minimums:
Push-ups: 49 (in 2 minutes, graded strictly for perfect form)
Sit-ups: 59 (in 2 minutes)
Chin-ups: 6 (performed from a dead hang with no lower body movement)
5 mile individual run in 40 minutes or less over a course with gently rolling terrain
Combat Water Survival Test (no longer conducted as of 2010)
Combat Water Survival Assessment, conducted at Victory Pond (previously called the Water Confidence Test). This test consists of three events that test the Ranger student's ability to calmly overcome any fear of heights or water. Students must calmly walk across a log suspended thirty-five feet above the pond, then transition to a rope crawl before plunging into the water. Each student must then jump into the pond and ditch their rifle and load-bearing equipment while submerged. Finally, each student climbs a ladder to the top of a seventy-foot tower and traverses down to the water on a pulley attached to a suspended cable, subsequently plunging into the pond. All of these tasks must be performed calmly without any type of safety harness. If a student fails to negotiate an obstacle (through fear, hesitation or by not completing it correctly) he or she is dropped from the course.
Combination Night/Day land navigation test – This has proven to be one of the more difficult events for students, as sending units fail to teach land navigation using a map and compass. Students are given a predetermined number of MGRS locations and begin testing approximately two hours prior to dawn. Flashlights, with red lens filters, may only be used for map referencing; the use of flashlight to navigate across terrain will result in an immediate dismissal from the school. Later in the course, Ranger students will be expected to conduct, and navigate, patrols at night without violating light discipline. The land navigation test instills this skill early in each student's mind, thus making the task second nature when graded patrolling begins.
A 3-mile terrain run, followed by the Malvesti Field Obstacle Course, featuring the notorious "worm pit": a shallow, muddy, 25-meter obstacle covered by knee-high barbed wire. The obstacle must be negotiated—usually several times—on one's back and belly.
Demolitions training and airborne refresher training.
Modern Army Combatives Program (MACP) training was removed as a part of a new POI at the start of 2009; it was reinstated with Class 06-10. The Combatives Program was spread over all phases and culminated with practical application in Florida Phase. However, MACP has been removed from Ranger again, starting with the Combatives Program in Mountains and Florida and followed by the removal of RAP week combatives in class 06-12.
A 12-mile forced, tactical ruck march with full gear from Camp Rogers to Camp Darby. This is the last test during RAP and is a pass/fail event. If the Ranger student fails to finish the march in under 3 hours, he or she is dropped from the course.

Some of the notes on physical effects of the training:

Physical effects
Following the completion of Ranger School, a student will usually find himself "in the worst shape of his life".[19] Military folk wisdom has it that Ranger School's physical toll is like years of natural aging; high levels of fight-or-flight stress hormones (epinephrine, norepinephrine, cortisol), along with standard sleep deprivation and continual physical strain, inhibit full physical and mental recovery throughout the course.

Common maladies during the course include weight loss, dehydration, trench foot, heatstroke, frostbite, chilblains, fractures, tissue tears (ligaments, tendons, muscles), swollen hands, feet, knees, nerve damage, loss of limb sensitivity, cellulitis, contact dermatitis, cuts, and insect, spider, bee, and wildlife bites.

Because of the physical and psychological effect of low calorie intake over an extended period of time, it is not uncommon for many Ranger School graduates to encounter weight problems as they return to their units and their bodies and minds slowly adjust to routine again. A drastically lowered metabolic rate, combined with a nearly insatiable appetite (the result of food deprivation and the ensuing survivalist mentality) can cause quick weight gain, as the body is already in energy (fat) storing mode.

Food and sleep deprivation
A Ranger student's diet and sleep are strictly controlled by the Ranger Instructors. During time in garrison students are given one to three meals a day, but forced to eat extremely quickly and without any talking. During field exercises Ranger students are given two MREs (Meal, Ready-to-eat) per day, but not allowed to eat them until given permission. This is enforced most harshly in Darby and Mountain phases. Since food and sleep are at the bottom of an infantryman's priorities of work behind security, weapons maintenance, and personal hygiene, it is generally the last thing Ranger students are allowed to do. As such, the two MREs are generally eaten within three hours of each other, one post mission, and the other prior to the planning portion of the mission. Though the Ranger student's daily caloric intake of 2200 calories might seem to be more than enough for the average person, Ranger students are under such physical stress that this amount is insufficient. The Ranger Training Brigade does not maintain weight information in the 21st century, but in the 1980s, Ranger Students lost an average of 25–30 pounds during the Ranger course.[19]

One interesting note here is that there is some biomedical researcher that suggests that women, with their slower natural metabolic rates and lower levels of the mentioned stress hormones, not to mention better adaptation to fluctuating weight and body fat rations, might actually have some advantage over men in these kinds of scenarios, provided they're in fit enough shape to handle the other physical stresses and exertion involved. Again, that's not really like sports. Bulky football players with a lot of muscle mass would probably be at a disadvantage here.

More generally, I don't know why it's surprising that 2 women passed, against thousands of men who graduated Ranger school. It might be surprising if there was a high percentage of women, but honestly, two women with the right kind of build out of thousands of candidates shouldn't be surprising.

[ikalugin]

Well, there is a reason why space marines looks like oversized american football players.

Somehow when people (in the West) think about a supersoldier they picture a basketball player height, muscle bulging bodybuilder with massive shoulder pads and not a short, dry built man who could parajump with the gear of his weight.

[Torplexed]

Good. Now we can combine the DNA sequences of two qualified Rangers and start breeding those super soldiers we've always wanted/dreaded. :D

[Commander Wallace]

Congrats to these women for having the ability to pass the tough requirements . Eight other countries allow women into combat now. Canada, Germany, Denmark, France , Israel, New Zealand, Norway and Australia .

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130125-women-combat-world-australia-israel-canada-norway/

The U.S recently allowed women on Submarines and have been serving on board ships and fly fighter aircraft in both the Navy and Air force. If I remember right, I once saw a documentary of women flying combat aircraft in the former USSR during WW2 and being snipers in the infantry.

I think there is a evolution of sorts with most countries realizing that today, it's more about having brains not that it wasn't then or that those in uniform didn't have brains. Today, it's more high tech. I'm sure these women are more than qualified.

http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-01-30/israeli-female-soldiers-show-path-us-women-warriors-are

Still, if these women are determined to go to Seal school,I'm not sure they are prepared for BUD/S which is 24 weeks, parachutist course work which will not be difficult for Rangers. BUD/s is Basic Underwater Demolition/ Seal Then, a 26 week Seal Qualification Training Program. There is more schooling after that as well. This is all part of the Seal program. I guess time will tell if they can hack it. Best of luck to them.

[CCIP]

Good. Now we can combine the DNA sequences of two qualified Rangers and start breeding those super soldiers we've always wanted/dreaded. :D

If the supersoldiers of the future are women, I think the Pentagon needs to commission you to design the future uniforms :D

[CCIP]

I once saw a documentary of women flying combat aircraft in the former USSR during WW2 and being snipers in the infantry.

Women actually served in all sorts of frontline roles in the USSR - as many as 800,000 served, 200,000 were decorated for their combat service, and 89 even received the highest military honour: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_women_in_World_War_II

There were a number of women-only combat units as well.

[Commander Wallace]

Women actually served in all sorts of frontline roles in the USSR - as many as 800,000 served, 200,000 were decorated for their combat service, and 89 even received the highest military honour: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_women_in_World_War_II

There were a number of women-only combat units as well.


That's quite an honor. I thought as much but wasn't sure. This shows the USSR were forward thinkers even then.This doesn't even get into women cosmonauts in Russia and women astronauts in the U.S. I don't know her name but there was a woman commander of a space shuttle mission right after the 2 year hiatus after the loss of the Columbia. There is of course Sally Ride and Judith Reznik who was tragically lost aboard the Challenger.


I'm getting off subject. All this history seems to show they have the right stuff.

[Torplexed]

Women actually served in all sorts of frontline roles in the USSR - as many as 800,000 served, 200,000 were decorated for their combat service, and 89 even received the highest military honour: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_women_in_World_War_II

There were a number of women-only combat units as well.

I remember when I was in art school, I was reading William Craig's compelling narrative of Stalingrad, Enemy at the Gates. I decided my ink & brush assignment for that week was going to be a female Russian sniper. I recall my illustration instructor was somewhat befuddled by the subject matter. :O:

http://pyxis.homestead.com/RusSniper.jpg

[nohouan]

I think it's about damn time.

[Onkel Neal]

I suppose one simple answer to that is that serving in the army is nothing at all like playing football. In fact, there are many qualities that a good football player has which would probably be considered handicaps for a ranger. Good football players (and many other athletes) are almost inevitably huge guys; in many cases, guys who are huge and bulky are at a disadvantage in many military roles (and flat our rejected from others).

The intake requirements for Ranger School, assessed on the first 3 days (of 61) as per wikipedia:




Say again? Depends on the position, many are small, fast guys. Buy yes, I know it's not the same thing, you know what I mean.

More generally, I don't know why it's surprising that 2 women passed, against thousands of men who graduated Ranger school. It might be surprising if there was a high percentage of women, but honestly, two women with the right kind of build out of thousands of candidates shouldn't be surprising.

Seriously? Why am I (others as well) surprised women can pass Ranger training? :hmmm: That really needs no explanation, right? Maybe some women can pass the standard, these two certainly seem to have what it takes, but of course, it is very unusual. I know a few women, don't you? I cannot say I've come acress any that seem to be cut out for this kind of thing. In school, 14-year-old boys can earn the highest award on the government’s physical fitness test by doing 10 pull-ups or chin-ups: for 14-year-old girls, it’s 2. (http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/why-women-cant-do-pull-ups/?_r=0)

Again, I salute these women for their achievement, but you expect it is a normal course of events?






Good. Now we can combine the DNA sequences of two qualified Rangers and start breeding those super soldiers we've always wanted/dreaded. :D

:haha:

At least these ladies shaved their heads like the men. They look like soldiers.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/08/18/these-are-the-armys-first-female-ranger-school-graduates/?tid=trending_strip_4
http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2015/08/21/two-army-rangers-67d1c2a3b923543e02f6eee8220e5fbd494d8ac9-s800-c85.jpg


I've read that Maj. Jim Hathaway, the No. 2 officer in the Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade overseeing Ranger School has taken to FB to set the record straight, these women earned their tab same as the men.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/why-women-cant-do-pull-ups/?_r=0

[Torplexed]

:haha:

At least these ladies shaved their heads like the men. They look like soldiers.


Wimmen with shaved heads. Even aliens with acid for blood don't want to tangle with their knack for survival. :O:

http://drop.ndtv.com/albums/ENTERTAINMENT/bald-celebs/sigourney-weaver.jpg

[Cybermat47]

Wimmen with shaved heads. Even aliens with acid for blood don't want to tangle with their knack for survival. :O:


Australian road gangs don't want to mess with them either :up:

http://www.themarysue.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/furiosa.jpg

[MaDef]

As long as the military doesn't lower their training standards just to accommodate women or to be seen as being politically correct, I have no problem with women serving in combat (or the special forces).

having said that, I think the Pentagon needs to get ahead of the curve and address issues specific to having integrated units to avoid degrading moral and discipline in the units. For example: the sexual harassment case on the U.S.S. Wyoming (SSBN 742).

[ETR3(SS)]

As long as the military doesn't lower their training standards just to accommodate women or to be seen as being politically correct, I have no problem with women serving in combat (or the special forces). Too late, they already have. Years ago. There's been a push for a single standard, what would be the current male standard.

[Onkel Neal]

I still say the answer to women on submarines is to let them man a sub with all women.:sunny:

[Aktungbby]

zuliaera!:Kaleun_Salute:

[NorseViking]

I don't know about the Army but most civilians think that Marine Corps boot camp is as seen on TV. It is not. It is ruthless. When I went through in 2002 it was. It could be different now. This is a social experiment and they did lower the standards. The Marines had a combat officer training coarse opened to women due to the bureaucrats in Washington and they picked all the top women who wanted to try. Not one passed. This wasn't special forces or recon.

Army ranger school is supposed to be more difficult than the standard combat officer training and the men involved said that the standards were lowered and that it was done as a political move. In reality 99.9% of women can't even pass a male Marine's basic PFT, let alone a recon indoc. Knowing what it takes to pass Marine Corp boot camp for males, I would have to say that I have only met one Marine woman that could possibly have passed our boot camp. She was much stronger than any of these women rangers look. All of the vets I know and what I have seen from the consequences of this meddling from bureaucrats shows that standards across the board are being lowered under the label of gender equality. When someone deploys to a warzone with Marines it becomes very obvious the difference between the capabilities of men and women. In war there is no time outs or safe zones unless you stand guard and make it safe. There is little time for hygiene and no time to call time out for any of the problems that women have come accustomed to feeling entitled to. When the smallest Marine in the unit has to be able to fireman carry the biggest Marine in the unit for long distances, it becomes extremely apparent that women are not cut out for it. Every study that has ever been done trying to integrate women into combat roles has shown a dramatic drop in the units effectiveness and ability. Anyone who thinks that it is not dangerous to have women in combat and get them there by lowering the standards has never felt the weight of 100 plus pounds of gear and a weapon while you have to carry your squad mate through a war zone or be carried yourself. A 180lb Marine weighs in at over 300lbs with all his gear and even if you strip him of most of his stuff. The flak gear, Kevlar, weapon and digis+boots+gas mask still puts him over 250lbs and closer to 300lbs. This nonsense only seems logical to those who have never been there or done that. For those who know. It is nothing but legislating weakness into our military under the guise of being politically correct.

[Jimbuna]

Welcome to SubSim zuliaera :sunny:

[NorseViking]

Welcome to SubSim zuliaera :sunny:
Thanks!:up: