Radar questions

[xXNightEagleXx]

Does enemy has radar (in the game logic)? If so, will you appear on their radar when not submerged?

When my radar is on, will it increase the chance of being spotted by the enemy radar as well? I mean both in the game and in real life.

I know that air radar in real life has the possibility to check raw data, so even it is not able to identify what he is seeing, he still might see that there is something there. But in this case i really have no idea on how the radar waves would work in the ocean (honesly i have to idea on how naval radar works).

In addition to radar, is there a safe distance on which i can use a sonar to gather distance? Obviously i'm referring to situations where you have escort near the merchant, so i would like to know if i should use sonar mainly only when i'm sure that merchant is alone (which by guess i don't think otherwise the whole thing would be useless).

[merc4ulfate]

It will depend on the mods you run. Some mods will replicate with some degree of accuracy what each side had and it will all depend on what year it is.

Early in the war no radar. Mid way the Americas were more advanced but by the end both sides had radar and radar detection gear so if your using your radar they could see that you were and home in on you.

All of this is is replicated by different mods and the better of them will do so at accurate time periods during game play.

The same goes for hydrophone and sonar detection.

If your surfaced and the enemy has radar at that time and your in that devices range you will be seen.

It will do you well to learn history.

[xXNightEagleXx]

It will depend on the mods you run. Some mods will replicate with some degree of accuracy what each side had and it will all depend on what year it is.

Early in the war no radar. Mid way the Americas were more advanced but by the end both sides had radar and radar detection gear so if your using your radar they could see that you were and home in on you.

All of this is is replicated by different mods and the better of them will do so at accurate time periods during game play.

The same goes for hydrophone and sonar detection.

If your surfaced and the enemy has radar at that time and your in that devices range you will be seen.

It will do you well to learn history.

Thanks but at this point i ask, will the enemy see me only when my radar is on or even when it is off?

[SOFLCS]

(I'm assuming your sensors and ai equipment are stock 1.5, as shown in your intro)
They can see you using their inferior radar, but they can also detect radar transmissions in some mods. There's been quite a bit of debate over the existence and effectiveness of Japanese radar detection. But historicaly, early war is fine, the Japanese racist thinking of the time concluded they had incredibly good eyesight, so they trusted too much in lookouts, 43+ you see radar sets become more and more common. Now if we look in the .sns (sensors) files we can deduce that CO1 is radar detection, and if you go through the Japanese Escorts you can see it's marked null for them.

[merc4ulfate]

Running good mods will model more effectively the use of sonar and radar from all combatants. Some find the game to hard to play with realistic sensors but I find it makes for a much more challenging confrontation.



Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
1_TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
1_TMO_25_small_patch
RSRDC_TMO_V502
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
Improved Ship Physics 2.6_TMO_RSRDC
FTMO_Visuals_for_RSRDC
GFJB_Navigation_Maps
HFJB Color Navigation Map
IGyoraitei
J11 New Ships + Yamato AA Fix by Miner1436
KShip pack 1
LSMALLER SEA PLANTS SMALL
MSMALLER SEABED ROCKS
N#5 Depthcharge Sound
O#2 Other Clouds
QAircraft_reflections
RHull_Numbers
STMO Smoke Mod
TTMO+RSRDC missions pack
UTABLE MAP 1,3
VClasse_Balao_CamoTri

[Rockin Robbins]

Okay, let's check the scorecard:

Your radar is on. What do you know? You know their exact position, course and speed, and you know exactly when that changes and what their NEW course and speed are. You have the complete keys to the city.

Now, what do they know? We'll assume they have radar detection gear and they detect you. "Shazzam! There's something out there somewhere running a radar set."

Now you tell me is it's worth it to run the radar if you think you're going to be detected. The answer is HELL yes. Run that puppy ragged.

The exact situation came up when Captain Joe Enright's Archerfish (the only US submarine whose name was changed by her crew, by the way!) saw this island moving on his radar. A bright crewmember suggested he turn the radar off and Enright made the same assessment as I just made.

But he was wrong. Detecting the radar, Admiral Abe of the Shinano concluded that anyone brazen enough to run radar must be part of a vast wolfpack of submarines, so instead of maintaining his invincible straight line speed where he was untouchable, Shinano started a zig pattern--right into the jaws of Archerfish. Radar being detected was the death of the largest target ever sank in WWII.

I'd say the score is advantage submarine and you should run the thing all the time.

[BigWalleye]

Okay, let's check the scorecard:

Your radar is on. What do you know? You know their exact position, course and speed, and you know exactly when that changes and what their NEW course and speed are. You have the complete keys to the city.

Now, what do they know? We'll assume they have radar detection gear and they detect you. "Shazzam! There's something out there somewhere running a radar set."

Now you tell me is it's worth it to run the radar if you think you're going to be detected. The answer is HELL yes. Run that puppy ragged.

The exact situation came up when Captain Joe Enright's Archerfish (the only US submarine whose name was changed by her crew, by the way!) saw this island moving on his radar. A bright crewmember suggested he turn the radar off and Enright made the same assessment as I just made.

But he was wrong. Detecting the radar, Admiral Abe of the Shinano concluded that anyone brazen enough to run radar must be part of a vast wolfpack of submarines, so instead of maintaining his invincible straight line speed where he was untouchable, Shinano started a zig pattern--right into the jaws of Archerfish. Radar being detected was the death of the largest target ever sank in WWII.

I'd say the score is advantage submarine and you should run the thing all the time.

RR, your analysis overlooks one small but important fact. The strength of a radar signal varies inversely with the square of the distance, while the strength of the radar return varies inversely with the fourth power of the distance. Assuming that the receiver of your radar set is just as sensitive as the receiver of his detector, then he will detect your emission at four times the range at which you detect him. That's why modern radar detectors way outrange the radar sets themselves, and why modern doctrine stresses use of passive systems.

Now, it's certainly true that the USN had technically superior electronics, so the assumption of equal sensitivity is probably invalid. And a large target - like Shinano :D - would give a powerful return. But the physics is always on the side of the detector. Think of looking for someone at night using a spotlight. No matter how bright the light, he will see your light long before you can see him. When the enemy may have effective radar detection capabiliy, it is always prudent to limit your own emissions as much as possible. The Viet Nam era axiom applies: "He who lights up first, gets smoked."

[ColonelSandersLite]

I think you're right on paper except that the height of the antenna was such that maximum detection range and the horizon matched up.

So while it's possible to detect SJ-1's beams out to 50 miles or so on paper, it can only actually start picking up the top of a BB at 12 miles and vice versa due to line of sight through the surface of the ocean..

Then again, depending on how the beams bounce... I don't actually know the answer to that at all.

[merc4ulfate]

Antenna 33 Feet

Target Maximum Reliable Range in Yards
BB, CV, Large auxiliaries 25,000 to 30,000; 12-14NM
CA, CL, Medium auxiliaries 20,000 to 25,000; 5-12NM
DD, DE, DM, AV, PC, CG, etc. 15,000 to 18,000; 7-9NM

Source:

RADAR OPERATORS' MANUAL, RADAR BULLETIN NO. 3, (RADTHREE)

[BigWalleye]

I think you're right on paper except that the height of the antenna was such that maximum detection range and the horizon matched up.

So while it's possible to detect SJ-1's beams out to 50 miles or so on paper, it can only actually start picking up the top of a BB at 12 miles and vice versa due to line of sight through the surface of the ocean..

Then again, depending on how the beams bounce... I don't actually know the answer to that at all.

You raise a valid point. So let's look at the ol' "ship over the horizon" problem. Using the equation for radar horizon found here: http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/ew-radar-handbook/radar-horizon-line-of-sight.htm - the radar horizon R=1.22*((emitter height)^1/2)+(rarget height height)^1/2)). If the radar emitter is 25 feet above the waterline and the detector antenna on a large target is 80 feet up (high on the mast), then the detector can sniff the emitter at 17 nm. But WW2 radar wasn't good enough to detect a ship's mast at that range - you need a more substantial piece of suprstructure to get a solid return. So let's say that superstructure starts at 50 feet above the waterline. Then the radar will get a solid return at just under 15 nm. Certainly nowhere near a 4-to-1 advantage. (1.16-to-1 actually.) But it still favors the detector.

German U-boat skippers, who faced a more technically advanced ASW opponent, often avoided using radar at all, because they felt it just broadcast their position. The US Submarine Service was never in that position. But, assuming that Japanese radar detection is modeled in SH4, or if you just want to play within historical limits, radar should be used with discretion in the later years.

EDIT: The numbers for radar performance from mercfulfate's reference seem to be in line with my Post-It note calculation.

[Rockin Robbins]

No matter how you slice the details you know everything. They know that somewhere out there something is using something on a radar frequency. They can't see you because of your radar signal. They just know it's there.

Advantage submarine. Run it all the time. Against merchants there are no detectors at all. Against warships they can only say you're somewhere. They don't even know it's a submarine. That leaves no details worth considering. WWII submarine skippers agreed and operated accordingly, as I've already shown.

[BigWalleye]

WWII submarine skippers agreed and operated accordingly, as I've already shown.

Certainly Enright did, and very successfully. But others,, IIRC, were more circumspect. I don't recall the specific references, but I remembrr a couple of first-person accounts where the possibility of alerting the enemy to the sub's presence was discussed. This would be of more concern when penetrating a harbor than in open waters. Sometimes just the fact that there is something there is more information than you want the other guy to have. And I suspect that the pros and cons of continuous search were a hot topic for discussion at the Gooneyville Lodge.

We have to bear in mind also that the enemy's capabilities in this regard were a matter of open speculation at the time. Nobody knew. And many invented boogiemen. I recall that one of the early radar-equipped boats got a pasting from escorts and the skipper was absolutely certain sure that the radar had tipped them off - long before, as we now know, the IJN even had operational radar detectors.

So you go in lit up like the Fourth of July. I'll run silent much of the time, with random aperiodic sweeps. And we will probably both be playing the game the way RL skippers historically operated.

[Rockin Robbins]

Keep in mind it's not like you run on the surface with spotlights going and they can see where you are to shoot at you. It's like they're listening to an AM radio station and they know they're within 15 miles of a submarine somewhere. There's a difference between being all lit up like a party boat and running radar. You can turn toward the light and target on it. You can't do any such thing with the radar signal.

It's the difference between knowing a position and knowing it's somewhere in a circle of 15 miles radius. The latter is just about worthless information. It's true that you might have some sharper lookouts on duty with a sense of urgency where you might be a bit complacent if your don't know there's an enemy 15 miles away.

But it was war and there was a sense of urgency all the time. What you didn't know could and regularly did kill you. And the Japanese were masters of optical detection, especially at night.

And knowledge is not always helpful. Shinano was doing the right thing before they detected the radar signal and adjusted right into the loving arms of Archerfish. Without radar there would have been no kill. Sometimes the presence of knowing the enemy is out there but you have no idea what he's up to puts on enough pressure to force the mistake.

Leaking information in general is much less important than the character of that information and what you get in return for leaking it. Radar was the game changer for American submarines. It, more than any other factor, contributed to victory. That's why we should use it.

When Tang's radar broke, O'Kane sent a sarcastic message to Pearl that basically said "Damn, our radar is broke and now we won't sink diddly squat." He was telling the naked truth. He also said that lack of radar changed him from the hunter to the hunted.

Patton said memorably that the best way to deal with fear for your life is to make your enemy more afraid for his. My radar says "I'm here, I know all about you and you don't know squat about me until something goes BOOM!" Fear is appropriate here.

[BigWalleye]

Keep in mind it's not like you run on the surface with spotlights going and they can see where you are to shoot at you. It's like they're listening to an AM radio station and they know they're within 15 miles of a submarine somewhere. There's a difference between being all lit up like a party boat and running radar. You can turn toward the light and target on it. You can't do any such thing with the radar signal.

It's the difference between knowing a position and knowing it's somewhere in a circle of 15 miles radius. The latter is just about worthless information. It's true that you might have some sharper lookouts on duty with a sense of urgency where you might be a bit complacent if your don't know there's an enemy 15 miles away.

But it was war and there was a sense of urgency all the time. What you didn't know could and regularly did kill you. And the Japanese were masters of optical detection, especially at night.

And knowledge is not always helpful. Shinano was doing the right thing before they detected the radar signal and adjusted right into the loving arms of Archerfish. Without radar there would have been no kill. Sometimes the presence of knowing the enemy is out there but you have no idea what he's up to puts on enough pressure to force the mistake.

Leaking information in general is much less important than the character of that information and what you get in return for leaking it. Radar was the game changer for American submarines. It, more than any other factor, contributed to victory. That's why we should use it.

When Tang's radar broke, O'Kane sent a sarcastic message to Pearl that basically said "Damn, our radar is broke and now we won't sink diddly squat." He was telling the naked truth. He also said that lack of radar changed him from the hunter to the hunted.

Patton said memorably that the best way to deal with fear for your life is to make your enemy more afraid for his. My radar says "I'm here, I know all about you and you don't know squat about me until something goes BOOM!" Fear is appropriate here.

Maybe I've been dodging wasserbomben in the ATO too long! I know that the earliest Japanese radar detector was just a radio. But I assumed that later versions and shore-based models would provide bearing information, because it is so easy to do and completely mechanical. (It's just an RDF for radar frequencies.) With a bearing and rough range from signal strength, you have a crude position. That's way more information than "There's something out there."

Didn't the IJN have directional radar receivers?

[merc4ulfate]

"I'll run silent much of the time, with random aperiodic sweeps. And we will probably both be playing the game the way RL skippers historically operated."

Except you'll be playing like Pinky Kennedy fought and Rockin Robbins and I will be playing like Morton and O'kane.

Play it safe it you want to but unorthodox tactics in real life sunk the most tonnage.

[ColonelSandersLite]

If the radar emitter is 25 feet above the waterline and the detector antenna on a large target is 80 feet up (high on the mast), then the detector can sniff the emitter at 17 nm.

This begs the question of where the radar detection equipment actually was. I did some looking around on this and couldn't find jack. Regardless, I would actually be surprised if the IJN detection systems didn't have a range advantage over the us radars. I'm not sure that the range advantage is all that significant though. In other words, can the warning system provide enough information early enough to prevent the submarine from making contact? I just don't have enough information to make an accurate assessment.


As an aside, I would probably operationally run the radar in single sweep mode, with checks every 15 minutes or so until contact. I have a lot of reasons for this thinking I might expand on later. However, as far as the game goes, that's just too much work for me to actually do so it stays on.

[Rockin Robbins]

But how can a radar detector prevent a submarine from making contact. It's not like the radar detector has a screen with a submarine shaped pip on it. The detector has a needle that says signal detected, strength x. No direction. No range. No avoidance possible. As Shinano shows, any attempt to evade is as likely to put you in more danger than if you had never intercepted the radar signal.

We're making a boogyman out of a simple radar detection where all you have is (at best) some idea of the strength of the signal and no supporting data.

The reality of the situation is when you intercept the signal you can draw a circle of a certain size that we can't agree on fifty years later and say "there's something with radar somewhere in the circle." How do you maneuver to avoid that?

[ColonelSandersLite]

Not sure why you think that a radar warning system doesn't let you determine direction. It's simple radio direction finding, which was well understood by everyone at the time. It is true that it doesn't provide distance, but there are two major ways to do so.

1: Multiple ships detecting the direction allows triangulation. At those ranges the angles involved would cause inaccuracy, but gives a general idea, probably to within a mile or two.
2: Passive TMA. Check here: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015086634592;view=1up;seq=38 page 26.

[aanker]

Does enemy has radar (in the game logic)? If so, will you appear on their radar when not submerged?
Yes, depending on the Navy, the enemy has radar at roughly the appropriate times for that Navy; USN, IJN, etc, and yes you will be detected if surfaced when you're in range. In the Stock game radar is 'mounted' on some ships that didn't have radar. I think the super-mods correct this and a stand alone mod may exist. In my install, I removed the radar from the ships that didn't have it.

The RAF & US radar is better than the Axis radars, in-game and in real life.
Historically, the Allied radar could actually detect U-Boat snorkels by the end of the War. The RAF & US aircraft had radar too of course, so add a Leigh light to the wing of a Liberator with radar, and U-Boats could be attacked 24 hours/day.
When my radar is on, will it increase the chance of being spotted by the enemy radar as well? I mean both in the game and in real life.
I leave my radar on until I make a contact, then cut down on the sweeps.
In addition to radar, is there a safe distance on which i can use a sonar to gather distance? Obviously i'm referring to situations where you have escort near the merchant, so i would like to know if i should use sonar mainly only when i'm sure that merchant is alone (which by guess i don't think otherwise the whole thing would be useless).
Unless it is a lone unarmed merchant, I don't ping for range. They can hear the ping and will be alerted that a sub is out there. I use passive sonar only.

Happy Hunting!

Liberator Leigh Light:
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p157/ptcbupers/ASW_Liberator_Leigh_Light.jpg

[BigWalleye]

"I'll run silent much of the time, with random aperiodic sweeps. And we will probably both be playing the game the way RL skippers historically operated."

Except you'll be playing like Pinky Kennedy fought and Rockin Robbins and I will be playing like Morton and O'kane.

Play it safe it you want to but unorthodox tactics in real life sunk the most tonnage.

“I liked patroling without emitting any radar or other signals....”

“...just by chance, for Tang had made no electrical emissions that the enemy might detect....”

“The conversation revolved around limitations of radar usage....”

“’Radar signals on the APR-1, Captain.’ Our new radar detector, installed during our refit, was responsible. Though nondirectional, like our SD, it would keep us posted on the presence of enemy radar. Best of all, it emitted no signal of its own to betray our presence.”

“Surely an island outfitted with a search radar would also have the relatively simple receivers to detect the radar of an enemy. Our caution may have been excessive, but our quick SJ searches were covering the critical areas.”

“Again, we had one objective: To make our presence known only by our torpedo detonations.”

This night, I penned normal night orders, ‘...The SD radar is secured and will be turned on only with my permission. The SJ heaters are on. Require sweeps and reports by the operator every 10 minutes and search continuously commencing a half hour before morning twilight till daylight....Do not be lulled by the 2500 miles between us and the enemy’s front door. He can be here just as surely as we will be there.”

All of the passages quoted are from Clear the Bridge: The War Patrols of the USS Tang”, written by Richard H. O’Kane, RAdm, USN (Ret).

[Crannogman]

Unless it is a lone unarmed merchant, I don't ping for range. They can hear the ping and will be alerted that a sub is out there. I use passive sonar only.


I agree, I only ping when engaging with deck gun at long range. At that point they know where you are, and you need good data to make the kill before they hit you

[merc4ulfate]

"our quick SJ searches were covering the critical areas"

In other words I used it sparingly because I had a lack of knowledge on how well the enemy could pick up the signal which at those time they could not.

But he still used it.

[BigWalleye]

"our quick SJ searches were covering the critical areas"

In other words I used it sparingly because I had a lack of knowledge on how well the enemy could pick up the signal which at those time they could not.

But he still used it.

Of course he used it. He used iit just as any prudent skipper used it. The same way I recommended using it. Prudently and sparingly. Just enough, and no more.

Reread the passage I quoted. The one from his "usual" night orders. Better yet, read the whole book. Read Beach, Calvert, Fluckey, Gallantin, Ruiz. You can learn from them how RL sub skippers thought and what they did. You can learn a lot of things you can incorporate into your play of SH4. It will make the game more interesting and improve your performance.

[Rockin Robbins]

Didn't the IJN have directional radar receivers?
No. Otherwise Shinano, very late in the war, might have turned away wouldn't they? They had signal strength indicators at best.

"I'm here and you have no idea what I'm up to" is the most intimidating message you can send the enemy. People under pressure make mistakes and there's no better way to put the pressure on. Once you know they detected you maybe it would be even more intimidation if you turned it off for awhile. "Did he submerge? Was it even real? Is my detection equipment faulty?......" (In a perfect world that's when the BOOMs come) With speculation comes stupid moves that you can exploit. Of course the game does what it does but if you're role playing you would use such things.

If you find yourself in a fair fight you just didn't plan adequately. And there are few situations more lopsided in your favor as when you're running radar and they detect you. The odds are MUCH better than if you are not running radar and they do not detect you. It's your responsibility not to give the sucker an even chance. Leverage that advantage for all it's worth. Failure to do so is dereliction of duty.

[BigWalleye]

No. Otherwise Shinano, very late in the war, might have turned away wouldn't they? They had signal strength indicators at best.

"I'm here and you have no idea what I'm up to" is the most intimidating message you can send the enemy. People under pressure make mistakes and there's no better way to put the pressure on. Once you know they detected you maybe it would be even more intimidation if you turned it off for awhile. "Did he submerge? Was it even real? Is my detection equipment faulty?......" (In a perfect world that's when the BOOMs come) With speculation comes stupid moves that you can exploit. Of course the game does what it does but if you're role playing you would use such things.

If you find yourself in a fair fight you just didn't plan adequately. And there are few situations more lopsided in your favor as when you're running radar and they detect you. The odds are MUCH better than if you are not running radar and they do not detect you. It's your responsibility not to give the sucker an even chance. Leverage that advantage for all it's worth. Failure to do so is dereliction of duty.

So would you say that Dick O'Kane was derelict for operating as he himself described? He certainly makes it clear that he used his radar cautiously and, like any stealth platform, gave a high priority to limiting all emissions to preserve the advantage of surprise. Remember that O'Kane was awarded the CMH, 3 Navy Crosses, and 2 Silver Stars.

[Rockin Robbins]

You have to separate hindsight from the view in the jungle. O'Kane certainly used his radar during attacks and for making setups as the resulting accuracy was deemed a slam dunk. Hence his statement that amounted to "my radar is broke and now I won't sink diddly squat."

The only difference was that O'Kane valued visual searches because they were apparently much more effective than in the game with high periscope extending the horizon (not in the game) and much better visual acuity than we have in the game. Even Fluckey talks about visually observing airplanes in complete safety for several minutes before a decision to continue as is or to dive. We don't have a true balance in the game and have to be careful about our judgments.

So O'Kane, before he made contact, wanted complete anonymity and ignorance on the part of the enemy, even at the cost of information on his side. Enright and Fluckey seem to be more in favor of giving a little to get a lot. But you can understand that superstition, hunch and general paranoia where your life is at stake if you're wrong would tend to trump any dispassionate calculation of advantage and odds. And you also have to factor in that the difference between the captains we discuss and the losers finding no targets was due to the aggressiveness and tolerance for danger that these skippers were willing to tolerate, in contrast to those who lurked below the surface all day and then ran around at night with half charged batteries and not fully prepared to fight. These guys weren't afraid to intimidate the enemy. And they weren't afraid to be seen by an aircraft--that's why they spent so much time on the surface. They were very willing to trade a little danger for finding more targets. I'll bet O'Kane figured out how much of the time he could leave the radar off and still not miss any targets in his search area. These guys weren't the kind to hide to survive.

The important thing is that once the great skippers were in action they used the radar to its full advantage. And the action starts with first detection by the enemy, whether it be seeing a periscope, detecting a radar signal, or hearing a very loud BOOM.

But with hindsight it should be very clear to everyone that just leaving the radar on will sink more targets than any other strategy. They can't fix your position and train any weapons from your radar signal. But your radar makes your weapons more than twice as deadly. In real life, the use of radar and its detection by the Japanese did strike fear and cause mistakes on their part because of its potent intimidation factor. In war, you should be something of a bully. Fair play is for dead people.

[BigWalleye]

In real life, the use of radar and its detection by the Japanese did strike fear and cause mistakes on their part because of its potent intimidation factor. In war, you should be something of a bully. Fair play is for dead people.

I have reread both O'Kane and Fluckey and I can not find a single example of an attack where either of these very aggressive skippers intentionally used radar emissions to "spook" the enemy in the way that you describe. And you have to admit that Fluckey, had he done so, could be counted on to have mentioned the fact. Shinano-Archerfish was a serendipitous occurrence, not a deliberate tactic. It happened once, and the details weren't available until after the war. (BTW, if you have a first-person account of such intentional use in WW2 - by anyone - I'd really like to read it. Thanks.)

O'Kane, on the other hand, repeatedly stresses the importance, to him, of maintaining the advantage of stealth. His comments on the need for EMSEC (as it would now be called) are far more extensive than the few I quoted in my previous post. Concealment, stealth, invisibility (call it whatever you wish) is critical to the submarine's mission. If it were not, you could build a far more efficient surface torpedo platform. Stealth is both an offensive and a defensive advantage. As anyone who has ever played a sibsim knows, you can't hunt effectively while being hunted. Once you make the enemy aware of your presence, he has a whole arsenal of tools to prevent you from using your offensive weapons effectively. So, instead of making your presence known, so as to maybe cause the enemy to make a mistake, it is better (in O'Kane's judgment and FWIW, I agree) to keep him completely unaware of your presence until the moment of attack. An alert, combat-ready enemy may spook and make a mistake, or he may not, and, if he doesn't, he knows you are around and is actively trying to find and neutralize you. An enemy who doesn't think there is a hostile force anywhere nearby is less alert and not actively trying to locate and deal with you. This is the essence of stealth tactics, which are most definitely not purely defensive.

As for striking fear in the enemy, what is more fearsome than the sudden enormous explosion of a torpedo which strikes without warning when everyone on board is feeling safe and unaware of an enemy anywhere nearby? Or as O'Kane put it:

"Again, we had one objective: To make our presence known only by our torpedo detonations."

But with hindsight it should be very clear to everyone that just leaving the radar on will sink more targets than any other strategy. Hindsight is something none of us can avoid. Trying to minimize the element of hindsight was Ducimus' rationale for creating the "alternative history" which is TMO. But that doesn't mean that we have to embrace the knowledge that hindsight gives us and play the game with an aggressiveness beyond that of the boldest RL skippers, just because we "know" the historical truth. There is a quote which I am fond of offering on this forum:

"Realism isn't about the settings. It's about how you play the game." - Rockin' Robbins

[merc4ulfate]

""I'm here and you have no idea what I'm up to" is the most intimidating message you can send the enemy. People under pressure make mistakes and there's no better way to put the pressure on. Once you know they detected you maybe it would be even more intimidation if you turned it off for awhile. "Did he submerge? Was it even real? Is my detection equipment faulty?......" (In a perfect world that's when the BOOMs come)"

Yeah this is me here sometimes.

1944. I just ran smack into a huge Task Force. Water depth is 600 feet. They had at least 11 destroyers, 4 battleships, 8 light and heavy cruisers and 8 aircraft carriers of varying classes. The escorts were more towards the rear and I let them have it from 3000 yards. I sank 4 out of the 8 carriers and two destroyers. In the whole 45 minute battle I fired all but 6 fish and only once dove to avoid being struck by a heavy cruiser to a depth of 110 feet then came back up to continue the attack.

1600 sun is shining and not a cloud in the sky. I was bombed by no less than 6 air craft who couldn't hit a thing. 35 minutes into the battle the TF began moving on out of my range and I had to dive to 520 feet to avoid the destroyers who had finally made it over to attack me. Sustained minor flooding and damage that was quickly repaired.

After they left the area I found a freighter and threw three cuties at him two hit but he left and I didnt feel like wasting the other 3 fish or a surface face off.

Headed to Saipan which had just fallen and on my way came across another huge Task Force. They were spread out for miles and there is no way knowing all of the ships. I was at periscope depth all ahead flank and was never heard by any of them they were so spread out. By the time I got into position and allowed one to come towards me I put one out of three fish into another carrier.

Docked at Saipan and very much enjoyed that patrol.

I think I made my presence known and had first spotted them with radar and kept the radar on until they were within 9 nm then I went to periscope depth.

Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
1_TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
1_TMO_25_small_patch
RSRDC_TMO_V502
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
Improved Ship Physics 2.6_TMO_RSRDC
FTMO_Visuals_for_RSRDC
GFJB_Navigation_Maps
HFJB Color Navigation Map
IGyoraitei
J11 New Ships + Yamato AA Fix by Miner1436
KShip pack 1
LSMALLER SEA PLANTS SMALL
MSMALLER SEABED ROCKS
N#5 Depthcharge Sound
O#2 Other Clouds
QAircraft_reflections
RHull_Numbers
STMO Smoke Mod
TTMO+RSRDC missions pack
UTABLE MAP 1,3
VClasse_Balao_CamoTri

[BigWalleye]

Gosh! That sounds so...real!

[Rockin Robbins]

Those convoys fly by at 20 knots. Good job of getting in close enough to let 'em know we don't like 'em playing on OUR LAKE. The worst thing is seeing a convoy and knowing there's no way to get from here to there.

[ColonelSandersLite]

Yeah, did some further research. The Japanese threw the E27 radar detector, often paired with the model 3 on everything from subs to carriers. The E27 was definitely capable of determining direction.

Might want to look here from page 333 to 335:
https://books.google.com/books?id=dP8Yuen6aPsC&pg=PA335&lpg=PA335&dq=UN-955+receiver&source=bl&ots=KUFKWLQAl7&sig=OJP941Qyk_N_y96PjaBgrOPQTzc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDAQ6AEwA2oVChMIkdrh0Yq5xwIVFhuSCh3xPQZC#v=on epage&q=UN-955%20receiver&f=false


Historical facts aside. Every sensor is directional in the game whether it should be or not. For example, the SD radar is not directional, but still gives bearing data. It's certainly just a game engine limitation.

[TorpX]

Nice find there.

Very interesting.

[ColonelSandersLite]

Yeah, been reading some of that book preview. I *really* want a copy now. Sadly, it's price point puts it out of my range in the immediate sense. Maybe soon though.

[Rockin Robbins]

So a whole squadron of DDs and the Shinano, very likely all equipped with the E27 presumably detected Archerfish (we know they did that), determined the bearing to the submarine and purposely turned to travel perfectly in front of the submarine?

Something is wrong here. Knowing the bearing to the sub wouldn't they have turned away, knowing that they can do 20 knots in bad times and over 30 if they have to and the sub would have no way of getting off a shot? The Japanese account of the encounter makes no mention of having directional capability and what squadron would be more modern but the one guarding a ship so secret that the Navy didn't believe Enright's claim of sinking a carrier?

This smells like the secret weapons of the Luftwaffe, most of which were little more than pipe dreams and maybe a model or a prototype somewhere.

[ColonelSandersLite]

I can see a few possible reasons for it.

First, bearing only plots are inaccurate and time consuming.

Secondly the archerfish failed the initial intercept. They deduced that shinano would return to original base course so archerfish changed course to intercept based on that. This would in effect ruin the shinanos estimation of archerfish's position. Leading to another inaccurate time consuming plot. It's not hard at all to imagine that shinano missestimated archerfish's position.

Third, shinano thought that archerfish was a diversion and the actual attack force was somewhere else. So which direction is actually safe?

Basically, the fog of war worked out in favor of the archerfish this time.

The really ****ty thing for shinano is that they spotted archerfish well before the sinking and a destroyer was closing to attack, and then ordered to break away to guard against a wolfpack that didn't exist. If the destroyer had just been allowed to attack, it's probable that archerfish would not have had a chance to engage.



As an interesting note though. If you look at the archerfish's patrol log (http://www.ussarcherfish.com/warptrl/patrol5.htm), you can see the archerfish was actually staying down during the day.

There's also a really unusual bit in that patrol log:
The officers were given a ride around the island which was most interesting and appreciated.

The men went ashore in walking parties under officer supervision to lessen the danger of booby traps which were still around. Four men who inadvertently became separated from the rest started through a cane field. When one of the men heard rustling where his friends were not, he called “Halt” in his best Marine voice. With that 3 Jap soldiers jumped and ran leaving a loaded rifle, bayonet, medical kit, K rations, etc. as souvenirs. It is very fortunate that we don't have four casualties.

[merc4ulfate]

... and the E-27 did not even become operational until April of 1044. It was mainly installed on torpedo attack boats but some units were also installed on large combatant ships and submarines.

If you had planes in the skies then you could bombard the E-27 from multiple direction rendering it useless because it could not pinpoint individual emitters and would be completely blind.

If the Japanese had used triangulation methods to their advantage they could better pinpoint direct targets even getting bearing, range and heading with them ... but they failed in doing so.

The E-27 had a range of 180 miles but you also have to remember it was basically a funnel shaped device and while it could detect radar well before the radar detected the vessel the angle of the cone without triangulation left a huge field in which to guess where the enemy was.

Just as with the Germans it was mostly Arrogance that destroyed the Empire. The racial superiority at that time from both countries leaders failed to use equipment to their greatest extent.

[Rockin Robbins]

I can see a few possible reasons for it.

First, bearing only plots are inaccurate and time consuming.

Secondly the archerfish failed the initial intercept. They deduced that shinano would return to original base course so archerfish changed course to intercept based on that. This would in effect ruin the shinanos estimation of archerfish's position. Leading to another inaccurate time consuming plot. It's not hard at all to imagine that shinano missestimated archerfish's position.

Third, shinano thought that archerfish was a diversion and the actual attack force was somewhere else. So which direction is actually safe?

Basically, the fog of war worked out in favor of the archerfish this time.

The really ****ty thing for shinano is that they spotted archerfish well before the sinking and a destroyer was closing to attack, and then ordered to break away to guard against a wolfpack that didn't exist. If the destroyer had just been allowed to attack, it's probable that archerfish would not have had a chance to engage.



As an interesting note though. If you look at the archerfish's patrol log (http://www.ussarcherfish.com/warptrl/patrol5.htm), you can see the archerfish was actually staying down during the day.

There's also a really unusual bit in that patrol log:
The entire Shinano incident was error compounding error, canceling out error, dumb luck intruding and BOOM! The book Shinano! is very interesting. Certainly shows that neither the Japanese nor the Americans were a super race of ultimate humans. Fate drew the cards, played the hand and delivered the blows.

It strikes me the same way as Sam Dealey and the Harder gaining the moniker "Destroyer Killer" and how that led to the death of the entire crew at the hands of a captured American minesweeper.