Japan's surrender was not a simple on/off switch

[Onkel Neal]

I found this very interesting. Of course, the ceasefire was not a universal and guaranteed result of Hirohito's capitulation. I can imagine many US servicemen expecting a "trick". I bet those were tense times.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/15/how-the-end-of-world-war-ii-almost-didn-t-happen.html

Seventy years ago today the recorded voice of Emperor Hirohito announced the acceptance of the Allied terms for Japan’s surrender. While that capitulation wasn’t official until the well-known ceremony held aboard the battleship USS Missouri in Tokyo Bay on Sept. 2, people around the world assumed that World War II was over. Then, three days after Hirohito’s tremulous announcement and Japan’s acceptance of a ceasefire, Sergeant Anthony J. Marchione—a 20-year-old aerial gunner in the U.S. Army Air Forces—bled to death in a bullet-riddled B-32 Dominator bomber in the clear, bright skies above Tokyo. The young man from Pottstown, Pennsylvania, has the dubious distinction of being the last U.S. service member to die in combat in World War II. Though tragic, his passing would be little more than an historical footnote were it not for the fact that his death came perilously close to prolonging a conflict most Americans believed was already over.

[Torplexed]

A Japanese surrender delegation was scheduled to fly to his Manila headquarters on August 19 via the U.S. airfield on the island of Ie Shima; if the two aircraft bearing the delegation failed to appear, it would be a clear sign that Tokyo was reneging on the surrender decision. If the aircraft did arrive, it would be an equally obvious indication that the attacks on the B-32s had been the work of a few diehards acting independently.This almost didn't come off either. The planes chosen to fly the Japanese delegation to Ie Shima on Okinawa were two rickety bullet-ridden Betty bombers painted white with green crosses. One of them pancaked while landing at Ie Shima. The other bearing the instrument of surrender sprung a fuel leak on the way back to Japan and had to ditch in the water. Luckily the surrender papers remained dry and found their way to Tokyo.

[Aktungbby]

I t actually was a little worse than that: "
On 18 August 1945, four Dominators were given the task of photographing many of the targets covered on the previous day; however, mechanical problems caused two to be pulled from the flight. Over Japan, a formation of 14 A6M Zeros (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A6M_Zero) and three N1K2-J Shiden-Kai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawanishi_N1K) fighters (George) but apparently mis-identified as Ki-44 Tojos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Ki-44), by the American crews) attacked the remaining two U.S. aircraft. Saburo Sakai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saburo_Sakai), a Japanese ace, said later that there was concern that the Dominators were attacking. Another Japanese ace, Sadamu Komachi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadamu_Komachi), stated in a 1978 Japanese magazine article that the fighter pilots could not bear to see American bombers flying serenely over a devastated Tokyo.The B-32 Dominator Hobo Queen II (s/n 42-108532) was flying at 20,000 ft (6,100 m) when the Japanese fighters took off and received no significant damage. Hobo Queen II claimed two Zeros destroyed in the action as well as a probable Shiden-Kai. Japanese records show that no aircraft were lost. The other Dominator was flying 10,000 ft (3,000 m) below Hobo Queen II when the fighters took off. The fighters heavily damaged that Dominator, initially wounding the dorsal gunner and then seriously wounding two other members. Photographer Staff Sergeant Joseph Lacharite was wounded in the legs (his recovery required several years). Sergeant Anthony Marchione, a photographer's assistant, helped Lacharite and then was fatally wounded himself. Marchione was the last American to die in air combat in World War II. Despite the damage, the Dominator returned to Okinawa, however, the incident precipitated the removal of propellers from all Japanese fighters as per the terms of the ceasefire agreement, beginning 19 August 1945. The last B-32 combat photo reconnaissance mission was completed on 28 August, during which two B-32s were destroyed in separate accidents, with 15 of the 26 crewmen killed. On 30 August, the 386th Bomb Squadron stood down from operations.[wiki] http://thumbs.media.smithsonianmag.com//filer/ON08_Last2Die_Flash_631x300.jpg__800x600_q85_crop. jpg2nd from right front row: Anthony Marchione http://thumbs.media.smithsonianmag.com//filer/ON08_last-to-die3.jpg__600x0_q85_upscale.jpgHobo Queen II. The B 32 was the back-up parallel program incase B-29's didn't work out. 1500 were ordered only 118 were ever built, due to the B-29's success. The B-32's pressurization system problems were never solved, and consequently the aircraft was re-purposed as a bomber to be operated at low and medium altitude; Problems with the remote-controlled gun turrets were never solved and the armament on production aircraft was changed to 10 .50 caliber machine guns in manually operated turrets. http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/the-last-to-die-10099776/?no-ist (http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/the-last-to-die-10099776/?no-ist)

[Wolferz]

Then there were all the hold outs scattered across numerous Pacific islands who never got the word to quit.
Last ones discovered in 2005.:huh:

http://www.wanpela.com/holdouts/list.html

[Commander Wallace]

I had no idea this ever happened but shouldn't be surprised. I had read the accounts of Japanese sailors who revealed 2 American Dauntless dive bomber pilots were shot down in the battle of Midway and were subsequently interrogated and were bound and chained with weights and tossed over board alive.

Makes one mad and sad all over again.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Many Japanese soldiers and sailors where in a quandary when the end of war was announced. A majority would commit suicide rather then surrender, others decided to ignore the surrender order and would continue to fight the enemy until they where killed or captured, some did surrender believing that if they killed themselves they would be dying for nothing.

I just finished reading Operation Storm which is about the massive I-400 submarines, their crews, training, possible missions and of course the end of the war. In it, it describes the various possibilities that the subs crew would take. Not surprisingly suicide was mentioned, along with sailing to an isolated part of the eastern coast of Japan and dispersing the crew allowing them to return home as "ghosts", one even made the suggestion that they turn pirate stealing supplies from captured ships as they went (sounds like the plot of a Cussler novel). The biggest argument with deciding what to do happened between Commander Tatsunsuke Ariizumi, the commander of Submarine Squadron 1 (or Daiichi Sensuitai also known as Sen-toku) and the Lt. Commander Nobukiyo Nambu, commander of the I-401. Ariizumi would of preferred that the crew commit mass suicide or go rouge and go out in a final blaze of glory for the emperor. Nambu on the other hand thought that now the war had ended was the get his crew home alive but without being captured or surrendering. In the end Ariizumi killed himself and Nambu almost got his wish, but the I-401 was captured by the USS Segundo (SS 398) about 100 miles off the coast of Honshu some fifteen days after the ceasefire agreement had been signed.

[Stealhead]

I had no idea this ever happened but shouldn't be surprised. I had read the accounts of Japanese sailors who revealed 2 American Dauntless dive bomber pilots were shot down in the battle of Midway and were subsequently interrogated and were bound and chained with weights and tossed over board alive.

Makes one mad and sad all over again.
Our side did some pretty nasty things as well such deeds may have been more common on the Japanese side but they where not uncommon on the American side either. War brings out the best and worst in humans.

[Commander Wallace]

Our side did some pretty nasty things as well such deeds may have been more common on the Japanese side but they where not uncommon on the American side either. War brings out the best and worst in humans.

I'm sure you're probably right. No one wants to think they are the bad guy . I'm guessing there are many stories that have never seen the light of day. Every side wants to think they are wearing the " white hat "

War bringing out the worst in people makes it a thing to be avoided. Hopefully we all have learned that.

[vienna]

The Imperial order to the Japanese Military and the general population, also known as the Imperial Rescript, contains a paragraph with one of the greatest examples of understatement ever:


But now the war has lasted for nearly four years. Despite the best that has been done by everyone – the gallant fighting of the military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of Our servants of the State, and the devoted service of Our one hundred million people – the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest.


.."developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage"; gee, ya think?...


<O>

[Torplexed]

War bringing out the worst in people makes it a thing to be avoided. Hopefully we all have learned that.

The Pacific War had a ugly racial tinge to it that the war against the Germans didn't. Prior to hostilities breaking out, the Japanese were seen as diminutive, buck-toothed and bespectacled sub-human specimens who couldn't shoot straight and, having started an endless war against the hapless Chinese they couldn't win, certainly couldn't be highly regarded a soldiers.

What's amusing is how quickly the subhumans of 1941 mutated into the superhumans of 1942 after conquering a vast empire in four months. In the wake of defeat after defeat, rumors began to fly among Allied soldiers that the Japanese possessed preternatural senses and abilities. Like bats, they could see in the darkness. Like panthers, they could move soundlessly through the jungle. Like ants, they could communicate with their own kind by some unspoken brainwave. They could live endlessly off the land, never needing rations. Unlike men they had no fear of death. The new myth, like the one it displaced, was based on absurd racial canards. But it struck fear into the men who had to face these reputed "superwarriors" on the ground, and for a while it proved to be self-fulfilling.

[Commander Wallace]

The Pacific War had a ugly racial tinge to it that the war against the Germans didn't.

I disagree there. Certainly there was an ugly racial tinge that fueled the " final solution " in Europe. But more than likely fueled it in the pacific too. However, The Japanese of that time also regarded anyone who was not of the Japanese race to be subhuman. They brutalized the Chinese as well. As you said though, it is amazingly easy to underestimate an opponent though.

I saw a piece on the history channel where a military official ( I can't remember the name ) " had traveled extensively in Germany in the 1930's and decided to pattern his forces after the SS. Maybe someone knows who I mean and who his name was.

I do think the brutality that took place in Europe and in the Pacific had never been seen before. I'm sure a world war 2 veteran could attest to that which I'm not. Each side then will say the other was more brutal.

I would say the entire war was brutal.

[August]

I don't think WW2 was particularly racist compared to any other multi ethnic/cultural war in human history. Just better documented and fresh in the public's mind which is why it seems more, but war always has an ugly racial tinge to it. It's a very handy way of demonizing ones enemy without having examples of insult or transgressions to rally the people.

[Jimbuna]

I do think the brutality that took place in Europe and in the Pacific had never been seen before. I'm sure a world war 2 veteran could attest to that which I'm not. Each side then will say the other was more brutal.



If you care to study history and read up on the books available, browse the internet etc. I'm confident you will find examples from hundreds of conflicts which will disagree with your current opinion.

I don't think WW2 was particularly racist compared to any other multi ethnic/cultural war in human history. Just better documented and fresh in the public's mind which is why it seems more, but war always has an ugly racial tinge to it. It's a very handy way of demonizing ones enemy without having examples of insult or transgressions to rally the people.

Agreed :yep:

[Commander Wallace]

If you care to study history and read up on the books available, browse the internet etc. I'm confident you will find examples from hundreds of conflicts which will disagree with your current opinion.



Agreed :yep:

I did read them and stand by what I said although to clarify jim, I should have said the scope of ww2 or ww1 for that matter. It just seems so much technology in ww2 was invented for whole sale destruction. Other wars I think were in a relatively regional scope or as you put it, conflicts. The world wars, especially WW2 saw an explosion of technology equal to the skewed ideology that used them. They were called world wars for a reason.
Then again, I'm not a historian.

There is always a great danger when high technology is at hand and the wisdom to use it hasn't matured .


August is right though. Every thing is better documented now almost as though it were a spectator event, which it's not.

[Bilge_Rat]

okay...back to the surrender..

that was also an attempted coup on august 14 by a few die hards who did not want to surrender to occur:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_incident

[Torplexed]

okay...back to the surrender..

that was also an attempted coup on august 14 by a few die hards who did not want to surrender to occur:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_incident

Given the mind-set of Japan's armed forces, what was remarkable was not that a palace coup was attempted, but that only a tiny handful of officers actually joined in. For all their anger, dishonor and a significant number of suicides in the days to come, the overwhelming majority of soldiers submitted to the emperor's will and quit. Some believe that will was much augmented by the new circumstances of Soviet entry into the war and the atomic bombs.

Historians have argued and will probably continue to argue for years whether it was the influence of the bomb or the Soviet invasion of Manchuria and possible Soviet invasion of Hokkaido that had the greater effect on inducing surrender. Both played their parts. One Japanese historian states unequivocally that the specter of the a-bombs clinched the decision for Japan's civilian politicians, and for the Imperial Japanese Army the last straw was the Russian invasion of Manchuria.

[August]

Every thing is better documented now almost as though it were a spectator event, which it's not.

Ah but it is now and I think it will become even more so as time goes on and the technology improves. Cops will be first to wear body cams but they won't be the last. I'm sure that Soldiers won't be far behind.

[Oberon]

Judging by the footage that comes out of 'stan and Iraq, I'd say that many US and British ground forces do wear helmet-cams, probably at least one per unit. Helps with debriefing I imagine, like the airforce do with their tapes. :hmmm:

[Stealhead]

Judging by the footage that comes out of 'stan and Iraq, I'd say that many US and British ground forces do wear helmet-cams, probably at least one per unit. Helps with debriefing I imagine, like the airforce do with their tapes. :hmmm:
They use them to help write AARs I would imagine.

[Commander Wallace]

Ah but it is now and I think it will become even more so as time goes on and the technology improves. Cops will be first to wear body cams but they won't be the last. I'm sure that Soldiers won't be far behind.


I don't think it's a bad thing if police / soldiers wear body cameras. It should weed out the bad ones who commit abuses and protect the integrity and honor of the good ones. It should also protect them from unfounded allegations. Like Oberon and Stealhead said, there are many uses.

Great thread with everyone putting forth so much info.

[August]

I don't think it's a bad thing if police / soldiers wear body cameras. It should weed out the bad ones who commit abuses and protect the integrity and honor of the good ones. It should also protect them from unfounded allegations. Like Oberon and Stealhead said, there are many uses.

Great thread with everyone putting forth so much info.

Good or bad it's going to fundamentally change how we fight wars. The micromanaging that will follow implementing these cameras will be the death of personal initiative which has been a major strength of our military throughout the centuries. I worry how we'll manage against a capable opponent who doesn't play such games.

[Oberon]

If the current 'War on Terror' is anything to go by, the answer is pretty poorly. Still, it's a fairly stop-gap measure because human beings are going to be gradually phased out from the direct battlefield, for the most part at least. Obviously those caught out where the battle is happening are still going to be up the creek, but the battle itself will be more technologically involved, drones and the like. There will still be a need for a flesh and blood representative on the ground, but much of the actual killing can be done remotely.
That's where the trend is going anyway, the technology is coming along, but it's always going to be a mouse vs mouse-trap situation just like any major technological military update. They invented lighter than air devices, so they invented anti-aircraft guns, they invented tanks, so they invented anti-tank rifles, and so on and so forth.

[vienna]

Good or bad it's going to fundamentally change how we fight wars. The micromanaging that will follow implementing these cameras will be the death of personal initiative which has been a major strength of our military throughout the centuries. I worry how we'll manage against a capable opponent who doesn't play such games.

The military, throughout history, have been more than effective in trying to quash personal initiative, particularly if it makes the top brass look bad in comparison. More than one officer, noncom, or grunt has been put up on charges, demoted, or expelled because they took an effective initiative that made people ask the top brass or the politicos "Why didn't you think of that first?" or made the top brass look like the bunglers they are all too often. My favorite example is Lord Nelson, who if memory serves was beached two or three times, not because he failed, but because he succeeded where the brass had basically given up; the Battle of Copenhagen comes to mind...


<O>

[August]

The military, throughout history, have been more than effective in trying to quash personal initiative, particularly if it makes the top brass look bad in comparison. More than one officer, noncom, or grunt has been put up on charges, demoted, or expelled because they took an effective initiative that made people ask the top brass or the politicos "Why didn't you think of that first?" or made the top brass look like the bunglers they are all too often. My favorite example is Lord Nelson, who if memory serves was beached two or three times, not because he failed, but because he succeeded where the brass had basically given up; the Battle of Copenhagen comes to mind...


<O>

I think you're confusing Monday Morning Quarterbacking with micromanagement. They are two different things.

A soldier in the field may make the wrong decision and be criticized for it but it is (was) still his decision to make. That is not going to be the case when the commander can not only see and hear everything the soldier can but also tell him what to do in real time.

[Betonov]

Turning a soldier into a call of duty character controled by a pencil pusher in a bunker kilometers away.
I see what you're getting at.

[August]

Turning a soldier into a call of duty character controled by a pencil pusher in a bunker kilometers away.
I see what you're getting at.

That's an interesting way of putting it but it is spot on correct.

[Stealhead]

They already do this read about the 2002 battle in Afghanistan known ad Roberts Ridge Predator drones sent feeds to CENTOM. There is very strong evidence to suggest that command observed things to suggest that a certain objective was not worth the risk but they ordered it anyway.

Back in previous wars command has always pushed the front line fighter when they had at best what could be heard over the radio so in that reguard things haven't changed.

Look for FLIR footage that is unedited for example an Apache crew what they do to get permission to engage its lengthy of course an officer miles away approves.

My dad in Vietnam they often got crazy orders from the rear the ones that where pure suicide they "misinterpreted".

[vienna]

I think you're confusing Monday Morning Quarterbacking with micromanagement. They are two different things.

A soldier in the field may make the wrong decision and be criticized for it but it is (was) still his decision to make. That is not going to be the case when the commander can not only see and hear everything the soldier can but also tell him what to do in real time.

You mean like the micromanaged wars such as Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq? Vietnam was micromanaged to an inch of it's long tortuous duration, in real time. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were plagued by Bush Administration oversight, managed, reputedly, by Dick Cheney, to such an extent the revolving carousel of field commanders was embarrassing. Every time one of them would speak out about the need for increased troop levels, better equipment, etc., they were quickly shown the door, all while the Administration dragged its feet and the senior officers seemed to be too cowed to come to the support of the field commanders and the troops...

I fear such micromanagement will only increase as the US military becomes more technologically dependent. The prospect of future military operations devolving into a "Call of Duty" scenario is all too real and the micromanagement will only get worse when the soldier taking the orders is in the same bunker with the brass...


<O>

[Friscobay]

okay...back to the surrender..

that was also an attempted coup on august 14 by a few die hards who did not want to surrender to occur:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_incident
__________________


The first enemy soldier to ever step foot on Japanese soil in the guise of a conqueror would be a member of MacArthurs staff, Col. Charles Tench, who, on August 28, 1945,

''stepped from a C-47 onto the bomb-pocked runway of Atsugi. Instantly, a mob of howling Japanese headed for him. He was reaching for a weapon when they braked to a halt, bowed, smiled, and offered him a cup of orangeade''.

William Manchester, ''American Caesar: Douglas MacArthur 1880-1964''. Little and Brown reprnt.1998.

The line between Tench and the new 2015 NISSAN Frontier pickup truck, available at the nearest American car lot for about 18 grand MSRP, is as direct as it is fascinating in its relation to its 1945 beginnings.

[August]

You mean like the micromanaged wars such as Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq? Vietnam was micromanaged to an inch of it's long tortuous duration, in real time.

No, I think it'll be orders of magnitude greater. They' be able to see what every soldier sees and feels (and maybe what he can't too) in real time and communicate with every individual soldier rather than the pre-operation meddling that you're taking about, which BTW is nothing new in history, nor is rotating generals for that matter.

In any case look at how much that control capability has increased in just the 4 decades between those three wars you listed. Unsecured voice comms over a short range PRC-77 is a far cry from Satellite Communications with secure voice, data and video transmission capability. The technology trend is hardly going to stop there.

What I fear is this dependence on technology is making us increasingly unable to fight without it.

[Stealhead]

The Nissian Frontier is made in America. I'd say it wasn't that direct though. At one time Japanese products where considered cheap and well they where. What they did was progress thier heavy industry. They toured American factories in the 50's and 60's and figured that they could make a better quality product then they developed JIS and went to town.

Today many Americans consider a Toyota or Honda sedan as status symbol just 20 years ago this opinion wasn't common place. Of course Japanese post war industry and Japanese behavior in the last days of WWII are in my opinion not directly related in any way.

[Oberon]

Speaking of Japan, surrender and the aftermath, North and South Korea have exchanged fire on the western border. The ROK is evacuating towns near the border in the area. Just another day in glorious Korea. :dead:

[Betonov]

Fat Kim Sung is jealous, because the focus is on Putin and Iran these days

[Oberon]

Fat Kim Sung is jealous, because the focus is on Putin and Iran these days

Either that or he's annoyed that no-one is taking the new 'Korean timezone' seriously. :O:

[Mr Quatro]

Ah but it is now and I think it will become even more so as time goes on and the technology improves. Cops will be first to wear body cams but they won't be the last. I'm sure that Soldiers won't be far behind.

You mean robot soldiers, right?

after that comes drone cams for the records of course :hmmm:

[Torplexed]

Speaking of Japan, surrender and the aftermath, North and South Korea have exchanged fire on the western border. The ROK is evacuating towns near the border in the area. Just another day in glorious Korea. :dead:

Kim Jong Un has given South Korea until Saturday evening to end propaganda transmissions across the border or face military consequences. The 5 p.m. local deadline, comes after artillery fire across the Demilitarized Zone that separates the two countries and a belligerent directive from Kim that his troops "enter a wartime state to be fully battle ready to launch surprise operations."

It is troubling that Kim set a deadline after which war could begin. But then this guy is world-famous for crying wolf and then going off and stuffing his face. :hmmm:

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Speaking of Japan, surrender and the aftermath, North and South Korea have exchanged fire on the western border. The ROK is evacuating towns near the border in the area. Just another day in glorious Korea. :dead:

http://s6.postimg.org/z9t255nr5/kim_tan_trum_by_jollyjack_d96jl5j.jpg