A question about Authoritarianism

[mapuc]

Earlier today the news showed us a video clip from USA

The video showed a car stopped by a police. The police standing beside the car on the drivers side-saying "Shall I use the "Stunner"(forgot the correct word) Later on this women hang her self in her cell.

A friend made a post about this on FB. and here he wrote.

"I agree that this policeman was to brutal in his acting, but why didn't this woman do what she was told ?"

I wondered when I read that. Are the American less Authoritarianism than we in Denmark and Sweden.

Heck here in Denmark or Sweden a person stat to jump up and down when the police gives the order to do so-most of them do.

Markus

[The Enigma]

The description of what happened in that video is kind of a very short version.

I saw an officer acting very bully to the lady who was (as far as I know) legally in her rights.

He obviously didn't like the way she responded to his requests, but the law applies to all citizen, also to police men.

[mapuc]

The description of what happened in that video is kind of a very short version.

I saw an officer acting very bully to the lady who was (as far as I know) legally in her rights.

He obviously didn't like the way she responded to his requests, but the law applies to all citizen, also to police men.


I didn't take that into account and I don't know if my FB-friend was doing the same not taking her rights into account when writting his post.

I admit my knowledge about which rights an American citiziens have is very low.

Markus

[Jeff-Groves]

I admit my knowledge about which rights an American citiziens have is very low.


You've just passed the first test to be a Cop over here.
:har:

[mapuc]

You've just passed the first test to be a Cop over here.
:har:


What !? does it not take more to be a policeman in the States ?

I was talking about these little small laws not the big one, like

Free Speech, free religion a.s.o(first amendment)

And

Second amendment

Markus

[Catfish]

Has the police the right to demand you put out your cigarette, make you leave the car, treat you like a criminal and incarcerate you, if you did not use the turn signals? :hmmm:

Heard a longer report on the radio today about this. The video is said to have been edited, by the police. And according to friends and relatives it is implausible that she committed suicide.

A bit of trigger-happy, a bit of frustration, a bit of illegal alien thinking, a bit of racism. Altogether this seems to describe perfectly all the latest police infringes we heard about.

Yes i know there are a hundred thousand cases where the police did it right, but of what we hear nothing.

[Schroeder]

A burning cigarette is actually considered a weapon IIRC.:hmm2:
So yes, they are in their right to ask to put it out.

[vienna]

The "full" video was released just a couple of hours ago; I wrote "full" because there is some dispute about just how "full" the video released actually is:

The Austin Department of Public Safety released the 52-minute video from the July 10 traffic stop Tuesday night but now says it will release a DVD version of the footage because "some of the video that occurred during this conversation was affected in the upload" to the Internet, spokesman Tom Vinegar said in a statement.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/police-sandra-bland-dash-cam-anomalies/story?id=32615846

The video, released as "raw footage" shows some possible signs of looping and or inserts indicating possible editing rather than "raw footage". It is entirely possible the "flaws" are the result of some processing or upload errors (anyone who has done a good deal of video editing knows how artifacts can pop up in the process), so I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the LEOs. However, there is still no excuse for the sort of bullying conduct shown by the officer, in any case...


<O>

[mapuc]

My friends my post was not really about rights it was if the American is more or less anti-authority.

E.g
A person has done something wrong and a police ask the person to step outside the car and this person refuse to do so-just because this person are anti-authority and it escalate.

Or the person haven't done anything wrong and therefor refuse to apply the policemans order.

Edit we can of course discuss this video in this thread.

Markus

[Wolferz]

If you don't do what a LEO orders you to do, you risk getting your ass kicked.
BUT. always the big but, if the LEO makes a request, you are under no obligation to comply.
Since I was not there to witness this incident, I can neither confirm nor deny who was in the wrong. Though threatening to taser a driver for not putting out a cigarette seems a tad heavy handed. She's lucky she wasn't shot on the spot. Maybe the LEO thought it more prudent to wait until he had her in jail without the camera documenting everything. There are any number of ways around oversight devices.

This country has more than its fair share of criminals and psychopaths and unfortunately some of them made it into the ranks of law enforcement where they do their dirty deeds and get away with it more often than they should.

[mapuc]

If you don't do what a LEO orders you to do, you risk getting your ass kicked.

As I wrote before if a policeman ask a Danish or a Swedish person to get out of the car about 90-95 % of the people would do so-even if they have or haven't done anything wrong. We are so to say pro-authority

This and my FB-friends post "why didn't this woman do what she was told ?"

which made me make this post asking if the American people is more or less "anti-authority"(maybe there is a better word)

Markus

[Joefour]

As I wrote before if a policeman ask a Danish or a Swedish person to get out of the car about 90-95 % of the people would do so-even if they have or haven't done anything wrong. We are so to say pro-authority

This and my FB-friends post "why didn't this woman do what she was told ?"

which made me make this post asking if the American people is more or less "anti-authority"(maybe there is a better word)

Markus

All I'm going to say is this: If the men that founded this country came back to life and observed what has become of this country, they would be sharpening their swords and checking the priming in their flintlocks.
Enough said.

[Jeff-Groves]

which made me make this post asking if the American people is more or less "anti-authority"(maybe there is a better word)

Markus

I respect a LEO as long as he respects my rights.
Given I've been told I can't do things because "I'm a Cop" when I know better?

Also seems to many are Cops just because they were beat up in school and can now be Mr. BadArse with a badge.

Pretty sad that I now have cameras in my trucks and cars to protect me FROM Cops like that.

[August]

All I'm going to say is this: If the men that founded this country came back to life and observed what has become of this country, they would be sharpening their swords and checking the priming in their flintlocks.
Enough said.

Well said too...:salute:

[Platapus]

The police are given a lot of authority to take command of a situation on the spot. The check and balance is that they are supposed to be held accountable for any violations after the fact.

So the proper procedure is to do what the officer tells you to do and then lodge a complaint afterwards. Unfortunately, the police are not being held accountable for their actions so complaining after the fact is worthless.

Once the citizenry understood this, their fear of the police has, in my opinion, justifiably, increased. Unless something is caught on a recording, the police will most likely be able to get away with pretty much anything up to and including homicide. Even when there is video, it is seldom that the police officer is held accountable.

Why?

First of all, we have a flaw in the system where the police are responsible for investigating the police. Talk about conflict of interest! This ranks up there with congress investigating itself for ethics violations.

In my opinion, that needs to change. No government body should have sole responsibility for investigating itself concerning violations of civil rights including homicide of the citizens!!

Second, the police, in many cases, have adopted a change in attitude from being public servants for the citizens to being combat troops against the citizens. I have read and heard the police assuming a "us against them" where the "us" is the police and the "them" is the rest of us.

I put partial blame on this on the general over reaction from the 911 attack. Secondly, since 911 there has been an increased "militarization" of the police.

I am against police having military ranks, wearing military like uniforms, and being issued military weapons. The police are NOT the military. Unfortunately, uniforms, titles, and equipment do affect how people act. There is a very good reason why the military has uniforms and titles as they do. The law that President Obama signed increasing the transfer of military equipment to the police was a mistake. When you are given a hammer, all problems start to look like nails. The same can be said for military equipment and arms.

My second solution is to "civilianize" the police. Give them police uniforms and police titles and get them back to the attitude of protect and serve as opposed to interdict "at any cost".

Lastly, if it were my birthday, I would want, and would be willing to pay extra taxes for, research on non-leathal weapons for the police.

The police need to be able to stop a criminal from committing a crime, and neutralize a threat. One way to do this is to introduce a few hundred grains of metal into the chest of the citizen. But that can't be the only way. It is the 21st century. I can't believe that there is no technology that can't be developed to neutralize a threat without killing the suspect.

A live suspect is always better a dead suspect.... at least from a citizenry standpoint. Because a live suspect can be tried. However, from the police standpoint a dead suspect can't testify.

Being a police officer is a dangerous job. There is nothing we can do to prevent this. However, the police can not be allowed to adopt a "shoot first, and forget the questions" attitude when it comes to interacting with the citizenry.

The citizens need to believe that most police are good people.
The police need to believe that most citizens are good people.

If the police adopt an attitude and take action based on a belief that most citizens are the bad guys, what do you think the reaction of the citizens will be?

[mapuc]

Thank you Platapus

If I understand your comment correctly it is not that the American people who are more anti-authoritan than other people, it is more the police who have become more anti-serve and protect.
(not every police)

Markus

[Jeff-Groves]

Until recently? The police were getting Military grade hardware handed to them.
By what I see? They took to Military Tactics and mentality to justify the equipment.
It's no longer Serve and Protect the public.
It's Serve and Protect our interests.
Interests being the Police themselves.

I am highly suspicious of even the Local LEO now.
Where a few years ago I considered them friends.
I've seen the ones I trusted quit the forces over things like this.

[vienna]

The whole militarization has been going on for almost 50 years. It all started with SWAT teams:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWAT

The initial purpose was acceptable: highly trained, well armed and equipped police teams to deal with the most violent criminal situations. However, it has morphed into the more commonplace rather than the more extraordinary. The whole SWAT idea was glamorized and mythologized once Hollywood started making TV shows like "S.W.A.T.", based on the Los Angeles Police Department's (LAPD) own SWAT team. The militarization grew into a full paramilitary organization with the whole-hearted endorsement of the LAPD top brass, most notably former LAPD Chief Daryl Gates, who parlayed the unit into his own cottage industry with a line of video games, books, etc. Gates lost his job as LAPD Chief following the leadership debacle that occurred during the 1992 Los Angeles Riots. But his profiteering continued and his legacy of the "Hollywood" SWAT image inspired other US police departments to follow suit in organizing their own teams...

There is a need for such specially trained teams, but their use must be judicious. Here in LA, it is almost routine to see SWAT teams called out for some of the most mundane of crime scenes. In addition, the department has taken to equipping normal patrol officers in some of the military-style equipment formerly used only by the swat teams. A retired LAPD officer I used to know once remarked to me that the whole up scaling of patrol equipment owed more to envy than need by the patrol officers...

Some of the upgrading was an obvious necessity, particularly after the infamous "North Hollywood Shootout" in 1997:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q44yGYlUoQQ

It became rather more than obvious police-issue revolvers were of little use against a criminal element armed with semi- and full automatic weapons and high velocity rounds. For situations like this, there is a need for SWAT teams; however, as pointed out, the use of SWAT teams has become the equivalent, in everyday life, of using a shotgun to kill a fly...

The same retired LAPD officer also speculated to me he felt there was also a bit of envy among US cops when they saw foreign police officers (Europe, Israel, Asia, etc.) on the news fitted out with all manner of military gear; it was sort of "I want one, too!" boyish envy. There has to be a limit to what is appropriate and what is simply some police department's need to live out their GI Joe fantasies...


<O>

[Onkel Neal]

Earlier today the news showed us a video clip from USA

The video showed a car stopped by a police. The police standing beside the car on the drivers side-saying "Shall I use the "Stunner"(forgot the correct word) Later on this women hang her self in her cell.

A friend made a post about this on FB. and here he wrote.

"I agree that this policeman was to brutal in his acting, but why didn't this woman do what she was told ?"

I wondered when I read that. Are the American less Authoritarianism than we in Denmark and Sweden.

Heck here in Denmark or Sweden a person stat to jump up and down when the police gives the order to do so-most of them do.

Markus

A question about Authoritarianism
The title of this thread seems very misleading.

[Sailor Steve]

...it is more the police who have become more anti-serve and protect.

Actually the police have become better, not worse. You might not know that until 1940s it was not uncommon for police to beat and torture suspects, and confessions obtained with those methods were upheld in court.
http://news.findlaw.com/court_tv/s/20021119/19nov2002122233.html

Yes, there are bad cops who do bad things, but on the whole this is much less common than it used to be.

As far as Americans being pro-or-anti-authoritarianism, there are always individuals who believe in one extreme or the other, but for the most part we like our cops to leave their opinions at home and do the job by the book. It's funny, but most of the cops I've ever had dealings with were good people and left me with a good experience.

On the other hand, I'm not black.

[Stealhead]

Probably the worst thing for law enforcement honestly was the automobile. Once they became the standard tool the officers became separated from the people they are supposed to to help. How can you trust a person you never interact with?

In the old day the beat cops where trusted by the people in their precinct because they mainly walked around on foot and got to know personally many people you can trust a person like that both ways.

Today it depends on the attitude of the officer and some do have too much of a "us vs them" mentality. A good officer should very rarely have to resort to using physical force.

The whole ID thing dose bug me it wasn't like that pre 9\11 now they check IDs like it is going out of style. Get pulled over for anything and they want every adult in the vehicles ID. I don't agree with that the driver sure but what business is it from a legal standpoint for the officer to see the person riding shotgun? None in truth.

[Jeff-Groves]

It's funny, but most of the cops I've ever had dealings with were good people and left me with a good experience.

On the other hand, I'm not black.
:o
Wow. I did not expect that to end an other wise good post.
I am for the first time this year baffled.

[Sailor Steve]

:o
Wow. I did not expect that to end an other wise good post.
I am for the first time this year baffled.
My interactions with police have mostly been good. Other people have had other experiences. It looks like a majority of victims of police brutality have been black. A lot of them would disagree with my summation. I can only speak to my own experience.

[Schroeder]

The same retired LAPD officer also speculated to me he felt there was also a bit of envy among US cops when they saw foreign police officers (Europe, Israel, Asia, etc.) on the news fitted out with all manner of military gear; it was sort of "I want one, too!" boyish envy. There has to be a limit to what is appropriate and what is simply some police department's need to live out their GI Joe fantasies...

I've never seen police officers in Europe outside of special units being equipped with military grade weapons. Our regular police forces don't even have rifles and are just equipped with 9mm handguns. Federal police at airports and train stations can occasionally be seen with a MP5 but I believe that's only if there was a warning about an immediate threat. So I don't believe we inspired that.

This is now just pure speculation on my part but I rather think that they don't want to be out gunned by thugs. If everyone can legally obtain an AR 15 and the like then I'm sure officers don't want to be limited to a 9mm. You see it works both ways, a lot of US citizens claim they need assault rifles to protect themselves from the state while the police probably thinks they have to upgrade to stay on one level with the population. I think it's an internal arms race.

[Rockstar]

This is now just pure speculation on my part but I rather think that they don't want to be out gunned by thugs. If everyone can legally obtain an AR 15 and the like then I'm sure officers don't want to be limited to a 9mm. You see it works both ways, a lot of US citizens claim they need assault rifles to protect themselves from the state while the police probably thinks they have to upgrade to stay on one level with the population. I think it's an internal arms race.

I think you hit the nail on the head. April 11th 1986 Miami, FL was the turning point for law enforcement wanting bigger and better.

[Wolferz]

This is now just pure speculation on my part but I rather think that they don't want to be out gunned by thugs. If everyone can legally obtain an AR 15 and the like then I'm sure officers don't want to be limited to a 9mm. You see it works both ways, a lot of US citizens claim they need assault rifles to protect themselves from the state while the police probably thinks they have to upgrade to stay on one level with the population. I think it's an internal arms race. As a general rule, thugs don't obtain assault weapons legally in this country. Thugs who do have them and decide to use them can expect an aggressive visit from a SWAT team.
Unfortunately, there are far too many departments that are utilizing their SWAT teams for more mundane tasks like serving arrest warrants. Too often these teams show up in trigger happy mode, bust down a door and shoot anything that moves with their assault weapons. That's not a bad thing if they're at the right address.:nope:

If they're at the wrong house, it's best not to be lounging on your sofa with your hand tucked in the waistband of your skivvies or your trousers.:o:-?

[Schroeder]

As a general rule, thugs don't obtain assault weapons legally in this country.
Let me rephrase that: If everyone can obtain an AR 15 and the like then I'm sure officers don't want to be limited to a 9mm.


P.S.
Why can't I use the strike through code text on this forum?:huh:

[mapuc]

A question about Authoritarianism
The title of this thread seems very misleading.

I know I couldn't find a better words

In danish it is called autoritetstro(Google translate)=Authoritarianism/authoritarian. There was also orthodox and some other words I thought they didn't fit in this discussion.

I also know Authoritarianism/authoritarian is far more than your police, it is the Firefighters a.s.o

My question was if the ordinary American is less authority than their Danish counterpart when it comes to the police.

And my Question was because of a friends comment on FB.

If any have thought my post is somehow negative against the American it is not-It's just a simple question about the ordinary Americans mentality to wards the Police force in USA.

Do you do exactly every thing the police say you shall do ?

Here a huge majority would do what the police order them to do.

Or there aren't any survey about this subject, so no one really know.

[mapuc]

Actually the police have become better, not worse. You might not know that until 1940s it was not uncommon for police to beat and torture suspects, and confessions obtained with those methods were upheld in court.
http://news.findlaw.com/court_tv/s/20021119/19nov2002122233.html

Yes, there are bad cops who do bad things, but on the whole this is much less common than it used to be.

As far as Americans being pro-or-anti-authoritarianism, there are always individuals who believe in one extreme or the other, but for the most part we like our cops to leave their opinions at home and do the job by the book. It's funny, but most of the cops I've ever had dealings with were good people and left me with a good experience.

On the other hand, I'm not black.

Only in these old gangster movies. Now I have learned something new-thank you.

I remember an old episode of Kojak, In the start of the episode there were a text saying something like this
"This episode is....realistic and is about when USA got the "you ahve the right to be silence, every thing you say a.s.o)

Markus

[Oberon]

I think it would not be easy to find the right word to this question without inflaming opinion. Some people might say that Americans are less submissive than Europeans, but then that sounds like an insult to Europeans, but I think that by definition the US is less inclined to trust authority figures because of the rebellion against the 'tyrannical authority' of the UK.
Primarily though this mistrust is focused towards governance rather than law enforcement, the average American is likely to be more sympathetic towards a policeman than a politician, and most presidents are generally distrusted by whoever has the opposing viewpoint, sometimes to extremes.
Since the 1960s though, distrust of the police has increased, not just in the US but UK too, I think it started as an offshoot of the distrust of authoritarian figures, with the youth movement and it spread to their children and onwards. The police became seen less as your local neighbourhood 'Bobby' (or Officer McFriendly in the US) and more as the military arm of 'the establishment', the clashes between police/the Guard and anti-war protesters in the late sixties probably helped cement that reputation, especially with things like the Kent State shootings.
From there, really, the distrust of the police continued, with the polices reputation being damaged by incidents with the black community in the US and in the UK with corruption scandals and not really recovering from it.
It's a pity really, since it's the minority that ruin it for the majority, but in the media these days it's the minority who are focused on, to the detriment of the majority. That being said, if there wasn't some focus on the rotton parts then they'd be getting away with it, but it's finding the balance between getting rid of corruption within the force but not discrediting the entire force whilst doing so.

[vienna]

I've never seen police officers in Europe outside of special units being equipped with military grade weapons. Our regular police forces don't even have rifles and are just equipped with 9mm handguns. Federal police at airports and train stations can occasionally be seen with a MP5 but I believe that's only if there was a warning about an immediate threat. So I don't believe we inspired that.

This is now just pure speculation on my part but I rather think that they don't want to be out gunned by thugs. If everyone can legally obtain an AR 15 and the like then I'm sure officers don't want to be limited to a 9mm. You see it works both ways, a lot of US citizens claim they need assault rifles to protect themselves from the state while the police probably thinks they have to upgrade to stay on one level with the population. I think it's an internal arms race.

Regarding the impressions a lot of people have here in the US of foreign police forces, we pretty much know only what we are shown. The retired LAPD officer I was speaking with was referring to our news broadcasts that don't really show the workaday police but, rather, the security forces patrolling airports and the like. We also tend to see examples such as the Israeli police forces with Uzis, Brit cops with semi-auto weapons and body armor and the like. At the time the LAPD officer and I were speaking, the LAPD was still using only revolvers and shotguns; the local gangs and drug dealers, etc. had long before tricked themselves out with semi- and full-automatic weapons. When you are a cop with a relative pea-shooter and you see a cop in some other country outfitted with mil grade weapons, you tend to say "I want one, too"...

The arms race statement is valid. A few years ago it was found that some local LA gangs and drug dealers were starting to buy 50 Cal sniper weapons and other high caliber items. The real troubling issue is a lot of these weapons are being bought legally by "straw buyers" for the criminals and, in some cases, the "legitimate" gun sellers are aware the persons buying the goods are not the ones who will end up with them...

The comment about beat cops is very true. I grew up in San Francisco in the 50s and 60s and we always had beat cops. We knew them, they knew us; if one of us kids ever did something to earn the attention of the cops, the cops would take us to our homes and turn us over to our parents, who also knew the cops on sight. I lived in a very blue-collar neighborhood. The cops knew the fate we faced at the hands of our fathers or mothers was going to have far more impact than anything they could dish out...

I once took a then girlfriend of mine from Los Angeles on a trip to San Francisco. She was used to the LA sort of policing where the LAPD was a faceless force that cruised around in their squad cars, not interacting with the public and, generally treating everyone as a suspect. We were in San Francisco's Chinatown when a SFPD car pulled up and two officers got out and began to walk their beat rounds. People on the street greeted them and some approached them to talk about whatever were their concerns. The officers knew the people, some by first names and treated the people with respect as they were treated. My girlfriend was astonished; she said she had never seen anything like that out side of a movie or TV show and certainly not in LA...


<O>

[Betonov]

Slovene policemen are only armed with a 9mm pistol and are probably rusted shut into their holsters.
There is also one very bored cop at the airport armed with an mp-5.

Unless there's a robery somewhere.
Once I was pulled over by a cop, helmet, kevlar vest and an AK-74. He searched my car while his partner was standing behind the patrol car ready to use his AK on me. Next day I found out the valley was locked down due to a robery.

[vienna]

I once observed something very suspicious here in Hollywood and I flagged down a passing LAPD cruiser to report the incident. The car pulled u to the curb and I walked the couple of steps over to the passenger side. The officer rolled down the window and I leaned down to speak with him. As I did, I noticed he had his gun (at that time, they were still using revolvers) in his lap, pointed at me, with the hammer pulled back. This was obviously a bit disconcerting. I told the officers what I had to report and they made a radio call and proceeded away to pursue the matter...

The matter I reported to the officers? I had observed a couple of guys, who were very obviously not cops, in a vehicle fitted out with cop lights and had used a siren to clear their way in a store parking lot...


<O>

[Schroeder]

Brit cops with semi-auto weapons and body armor and the like.
They're showing you funny stuff then as the average Brit cop doesn't have any firearm whatsoever. Only the armed response units have those.:doh:
They have recently introduced tasers for the normal cops though.

But regardless of that if I know I might have to get up against military grade equipment as a LEO I sure would want some myself. So I can understand your cops especially considering that they are often times all alone on their patrols with reinforcements some minutes away.

[August]

A few samples of the many public comments on the subject

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFF6bx2WEAEt6FJ.jpg:large


http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAaMWMZU8AADriF.jpg

https://philebersole.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/mad.jpg

http://www.hackettstownlife.com/images/forum/2014/04/222a41dec4e7fa62b6927d79c77f7eaf2b1869f2.jpg

[Schroeder]

A few samples of the many public comments on the subject

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFF6bx2WEAEt6FJ.jpg:large

Though to stay fair we have unmarked police cars in Europe too and they are direly needed to catch idiots doing stupid things on the roads. They don't have enough of them if you ask me.:nope:

*Edit*
Oh, and British traffic cops have to fulfill fine quotas or they'll get in trouble. That is something that should be an absolute no go because that is really ordering the LEOs to harass people for all they are worth.

[Stealhead]

By far the least intimidating police related thing I have ever seen personally where the VW polizei vans I saw while stationed in Germany. A friend got pulled over by an Audi unmarked guess it was state police. Man that Audi was fast because we where going very fast. I was the drunk one and probably would have driven more safely. He was mad all night at a dance club no drinking and no female attention.

[Schroeder]

A friend got pulled over by an Audi unmarked guess it was state police.
All police in Germany is state police with the exception of the federal police that guards our borders. We don't have independent local police departments or county sheriffs.

[Stealhead]

All police in Germany is state police with the exception of the federal police that guards our boarders. We don't have independent local police departments or county sheriffs.
Ah my dealings with German law enforcement was fairly limited. Once at Bad Durkhiem I walked across the rail road tracks whilst intoxicated and an officer stopped me and made me walk down to the station cross point.

I think I remember that you could pay for certain traffic violations directly to the officer and the speed cameras where from an American legal standpoint more fair because it took a picture of your tags and your face so that you could challenge the ticket if it was your car but another driver few guys did that but you also had to get the person who was in fact driving to admit to it. Here you can't argue a photo ticket and in some cases judges have even given such evidence still fined the registered owner which I think is malarkey.

The minor traffic tickets alone is a whole different can of worms but its a reavnue source. I once got in the mail a notice for a parking ticket from a city I've never been to in my life. It took me two weeks to get it cleared up. I'd have gladly gone to court had it come to that to prove their stupidity. Scary thing is max punishment could have been revoking of my license impoundment of my vechile and payment of the fine and interest. Turned out that the ticket writer had flipped two numbers on the plate so the actual parking violator still got fined.

[em2nought]

I've moved from my father's dislike of cops as gov't freeloaders that also give out speeding tickets to an actual distrust of them. In a small town, I've been stopped more in the last five years than the rest of my life combined. Dim tag light, no tag light, rolling stop, BS stuff like that. I had one pull me over, and blatantly lie about me running two stop signs, luckily I had taken my seat belt off before he approached my truck. So after running my license and finding me to be a spotless squeaky clean citizen, he just gave me a ticket for the seat belt. But that brazen lie about running the stop signs turned me against these jokers for good. Hell, even old ladies think I drive too slow and cautious. LOL

When I'm pulled over I keep both hands on the wheel at all times. Maybe I should get a camera too.

I think we should dress cops in Boy Scout uniforms, shorts and all. They need to remember who they're supposed to be. They should be the ones afraid to make us mad. Every ticket should have a survey, too many bad remarks and no overtime for you.

[Schroeder]

Ah my dealings with German law enforcement was fairly limited. Once at Bad Durkhiem I walked across the rail road tracks whilst intoxicated and an officer stopped me and made me walk down to the station cross point.

That guy was most likely a federal officer. They can be found at harbors, train stations and airports. Back when you were here they were still called "Bundesgrenzschutz" which means federal border protection.

[Eichhörnchen]

http://i.imgur.com/JnX0eIL.jpg Fortunately, this is still a common sight here in the UK.

[Oberon]

This is true Eich, but Dixon of Dock Green it ain't any more, sadly.

[Nippelspanner]

It is a weird situation in the US.
When I watch videos about all kinds of police related incidents I notice two things compared to what I'm used to from my country.
First, the majority of cops in these videos seem to feel threatened quickly or feel the need to enforce their authority in extreme ways during situations where a calm chat maybe would have sufficed as well (assumptions, I know).

Second, many US citizens act rather... rebellious.
As mapuc said, and that goes for Germany too btw, when a cop tells you "do this or that", your first instinct here is to "listen, do as he says, who knows what this is about...".
Sure, when a cop acts disrespectful, rude or is clearly violating your rights things may change - but so far I never witnessed this.
Cops here are rather laid back and professional from my experience.

In America however, it reminds me of the middle-east, where the Palestinians kill Israelis cause the Israelis killed Palestinians in response to Palestinians killing Israelis... and so on.
People forget that there should not be 'two sides' fighting each other, in every case it is individuals meeting and screwing things up.

Someone shoots a cop, some cops are on their toes more, some cops may be too trigger happy and shoot an unarmed person, then the news spread the fear factor about "trigger-happy-racist-murder-cops" again, counter-productive terms like "the cops" appear, some/many (black) civilians are pissed off and take it personal (baaaad idea), start to resist "because of 'dem bad murder cops!", cops feel the need to enforce their authority more, potentially dangerous situations happen -> circle of doom.

In the end, I do not think this has anything at all to do with a nations viewpoint on authority in general, the current situation is a product of the problems of the past and due to people being people.
Americans are neither pro nor anti-authority, same goes for the Danish, I'd say.

However: People are individuals.

[Jimbuna]

*Edit*
Oh, and British traffic cops have to fulfill fine quotas or they'll get in trouble. That is something that should be an absolute no go because that is really ordering the LEOs to harass people for all they are worth.

Really? :hmm2:

[Schroeder]

Really? :hmm2:
Seems I remembered that wrong, it seems only to be in some counties.
Watch the first two minutes of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud_jVgBurJg

[u crank]

Possible scenarios.

Good cop - good citizen. Police officer is polite, respectful and citizen is cooperative. Result good.

Bad cop - good citizen. The ball here is in the citizens hands. Be polite, respectful. Don't roll your eyes, mutter under your breath or do or say anything stupid. You may still get the shaft but if there is a camera or witnesses you will have a chance in the final outcome.

Good cop - bad citizen. Only a truly professional LEO will defuse this situation without a bad outcome. Some people are belligerent jerks. Some people are crazy. Some people drink to much.

Bad cop - bad citizen. Somebody call 911. :O:

[August]

A little anecdotal story.

In 1979 I was stationed at Storck Caserne in Illesheim Germany. A bunch of us, maybe 10 or so, had gone out one Sunday night to a nightclub in Ansbach which is about 20 miles from the post.

When the nightclub closed at 1-2am (I forget exactly but it was late) we found that the cab company wasn't answering their phone leaving us stranded with a formation to be standing tall at in just a few hours.

After wandering the deserted streets making a ruckus like drunken GI's are wont to do, one of us had the bright idea of going into the local Polizei station and asking for help. Now imagine 10 loud and rowdy GI's showing up in a bunch at the police stations front desk demanding that they find a way to get us back to the base.

Well I can tell you that had we done this at any US police station we'd have been immediately thrown in the drunk tank (maybe with a little tuning up first) and our CO would have had to come down to bail us out the next day, but not in Germany. The on duty cop got on the phone and proceeded to chew the butt right off somebody for maybe 10 minutes (that might be an exaggeration being 36 years ago and the fact that i was hammered at the time) but very shortly after he hung up two large Mercedes cabs arrived out front. We piled in them and they brought us back to the main gate. They wouldn't even accept payment IIRC.

I think this illustrates pretty well why there are differences in perception between European (at least German) cops and ours. First their reaction but also the fact that we weren't afraid to ask them for help.

[Betonov]

I think this illustrates pretty well why there are differences in perception between European (at least German) cops and ours. First their reaction but also the fact that we weren't afraid to ask them for help.

Plus, it solved the problem with getting 10 drunken people home and out of harms way for them and others) for the cost lower than a taxi fare.
Just the work hours for the paperwork would have been tenfold of that one ride. Not to mention keeping you under surveillance and then the backlash from the army.

If that would happen in seventies Yugoslavia, the cops would have opened a bottle of slivovica and you'd be so hammered even a Russian invasion would go un-noticed.

A friend of mine had a similar experience. The cops thought the easiest way was to drive him home than handle a drunk at the staiton.

[Platapus]

Maybe I should get a camera too.



A co-worker of mine keeps a digital voice recorder clipped to his visor. the few times he gets pulled over, he just hits record.

Most of the time he uses it to remind himself of what to pick up at the store. :D

[Eichhörnchen]

I always think it's sad to hear how some people coming to Britain from less, well, civilised countries, are automatically afraid to approach the police, even (and maybe especially) when they need help.

[Onkel Neal]

It helps when people act with a little sense and maturity. I do not like it at all when a cop stops me for revenue collection, er, traffic ticket. But that's the system we have here. I'm not going to fight the system on the side of the road. I make it as easy for him as possible: I turn on the cab light when dark, get my license and insurance out before he gets out of the car, and I roll down my window and keep my hands on the wheel. I says 'yes sir' and 'no sir', and I never make excuses for his silly questions ("Was there a reason for your driving 65 in a 60?"), I just answer politely and generically ("No sir, wasn't watching the speed").

All of these deaths we keep hearing about could have been avoided if people would use a little sense in dealing with law enforcement.

[Fubar2Niner]

I always think it's sad to hear how some people coming to Britain from less, well, civilised countries, are automatically afraid to approach the police, even (and maybe especially) when they need help.

Well said Eich :salute:

[Betonov]

My approach was always cooperation with confidence. It worked every time. I was caught speeding 3 times, 2 times I got off with a warning and once my penalty was reduced from €250 to €80.

Alcohol tests are a cirkus with me. There's no chance in hell they'll ever catch me driving under influence so I'm always confident enough to have a go at the cops. One time I was stopped 3 times from a long drive and I made myself a necklace from breathalyzer mouth pieces and then begged the fourth cop to test me because it would look better with 4 pieces than 3. He insisted I was too out of my mind to be drunk :) And that one time I told the cop I'll demand a blood test if the alchohol level doesn't show up in a negative number :)
They're great sports when you show them they won't be dealing with a hothead or a jackass.

[The Enigma]

My approach was always cooperation with confidence. It worked every time. I was caught speeding 3 times, 2 times I got off with a warning and once my penalty was reduced from €250 to €80.

Alcohol tests are a cirkus with me. There's no chance in hell they'll ever catch me driving under influence so I'm always confident enough to have a go at the cops. One time I was stopped 3 times from a long drive and I made myself a necklace from breathalyzer mouth pieces and then begged the fourth cop to test me because it would look better with 4 pieces than 3. He insisted I was too out of my mind to be drunk :) And that one time I told the cop I'll demand a blood test if the alchohol level doesn't show up in a negative number :)
They're great sports when you show them they won't be dealing with a hothead or a jackass.

That story reminds me of an encounter many years ago.

One day I borrowed my dads car (with his approval) and my one year older brother was sitting beside me.

It was a nice day, I was young and speed limit was for everybody but me.
My brother made a remark about my speeding: "so, you must be a lucky guy, obviously you never got a speeding ticket eh?"
I replied with full confidence: Nope.

When we went back home, my brother wanted to drive dad's car.
OK, go ahead.
He started driving and somewhere during that drive he overtook another car.
He needed to speed up to do so.

Once done, he looked in the mirror and laughed: "Look that silly car tries to get in front of me again. Probably that driver is annoyed because I was faster than him.

However, that driver turned out to be a cop.
He forced us to stop and ask my bro's driver license.
"Sorry officer, but I can't show it to you. I left my license at home."

OK, the cop replied. What do we have here.
Speeding, overtaking when it's not allowed and no driver license.

We both became very worried.
Look officer, my brother replied, this is my dad's brand new car and we were
curious how fast it could go.

The man smiled somewhat and said: Look, I'm gonna give you one ticket, you may choose for what offense.

My brother chose the one for not carrying his driver license (the cheapest option).

When all was settled he drove along and said to me: Next time you drive. :haha::haha:

[Torplexed]

I'm fairly certainly these unfortunate encounters with law enforcement would go a lot smoother if we all had nicer legs.

http://pyxis.homestead.com/Road_Curves.jpg

[Oberon]

http://i.imgur.com/hs4DTEQ.gif

[Torplexed]

I guess the "feminine charms" defense is a bit obsolete these days. :O:

http://i.imgur.com/0gwPAtz.gif

[clive bradbury]

I am a former UK Police Officer, and there are no 'quotas'.

However what the forces do have are regular performance reviews every six months or so for each officer. They look at your workload, and divide the work into 'response' incidents i.e. generated by calls from the public which the officer attends; and self-generated work.

The reviewing senior officer wants to see a reasonable level of self-generated work as well as the response incidents. This tends to manifest itself as motoring offences, as they are the simplest to rack up. There are no set numbers, it is left to the judgement of the reviewing officer - if you have been working on three murders or other complex cases, they understand that you probably have not had time to prosecute people for having a light out on their car.

In other words, they don't want 'fire brigade' policemen who only respond to incoming calls - there has to be an element of crime/offence detection too.

[Jimbuna]

Seems I remembered that wrong, it seems only to be in some counties.
Watch the first two minutes of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud_jVgBurJg

I'd say 'points for pulls' is a most unfortunate and potentially misleading way of explaining a crackdown on a given theme or category of offence which is temporarily made the subject of a zero tolerance operation brought about by a localised and notable increase in said type or types of offences.

I have to agree with Clive in that I have never been made aware of definitive 'quotas' or absolutes being dictated.

There are a few traffic black spots near me where deaths have occurred in traffic related incidents and it is not uncommon for road stops being performed where zero tolerance is operated on whatever theme is taken for the time eg: speeding, tyres, insurance, road vehicle excise etc.

I admit to have taken part in them on occasion myself and the moment the operation ceases or has run its course it was always back to the individual LEO using his power of discretion (being able to verbally warn without the need to issue a ticket)....and often that had a better response from motorists.

[Dan D]

"The Citizens Guide to Surviving Police Encounters", legal situation in the US and Germany, easily explained:

http://andrewhammel.typepad.com/german_joys/2015/07/my-entry-1.html

:yeah:

[vienna]

I'd say 'points for pulls' is a most unfortunate and potentially misleading way of explaining a crackdown on a given theme or category of offence which is temporarily made the subject of a zero tolerance operation brought about by a localised and notable increase in said type or types of offences.

I have to agree with Clive in that I have never been made aware of definitive 'quotas' or absolutes being dictated.

There are a few traffic black spots near me where deaths have occurred in traffic related incidents and it is not uncommon for road stops being performed where zero tolerance is operated on whatever theme is taken for the time eg: speeding, tyres, insurance, road vehicle excise etc.

I admit to have taken part in them on occasion myself and the moment the operation ceases or has run its course it was always back to the individual LEO using his power of discretion (being able to verbally warn without the need to issue a ticket)....and often that had a better response from motorists.

We also have such 'task force' enforcement in areas where there is a very large number of traffic incidents, particularly when there in a danger to pedestrians and other vehicles. What really irritates me is when these efforts are reported on the news, there are invariably those people who have been ticketed for violations fuming and shouting about how the only reason they got a ticket is because the LEOs are out to make some "quota" and they are trying to "rip off" the 'innocent' public. The question begs itself: if that citizen did get a ticket, wasn't it because they did violate a law and by doing so put others in harm's way and if they had followed the law, they wouldn't have received the ticket? Those idiots aren't angry because they were 'unjustly' ticketed due to some imaginary 'quota system', they are angry because they behaved like asses and got caught...


<O>

[Schroeder]

@Jim & Clive

I think the problem might be that you have been officers some years ago. Things change. If the Bedfordshire (spelling?) officers say they have to fulfill a quota then I have no reason to not believe them. Did you watch the first two minutes (and 15 seconds) of the video I linked? They have a target of 300 credits (whatever a credit is) per month.

[Jimbuna]

We also have such 'task force' enforcement in areas where there is a very large number of traffic incidents, particularly when there in a danger to pedestrians and other vehicles. What really irritates me is when these efforts are reported on the news, there are invariably those people who have been ticketed for violations fuming and shouting about how the only reason they got a ticket is because the LEOs are out to make some "quota" and they are trying to "rip off" the 'innocent' public. The question begs itself: if that citizen did get a ticket, wasn't it because they did violate a law and by doing so put others in harm's way and if they had followed the law, they wouldn't have received the ticket? Those idiots aren't angry because they were 'unjustly' ticketed due to some imaginary 'quota system', they are angry because they behaved like asses and got caught...


<O>

Pretty much says it all for me.

[Jimbuna]

@Jim & Clive

I think the problem might be that you have been officers some years ago. Things change. If the Bedfordshire (spelling?) officers say they have to fulfill a quota then I have no reason to not believe them. Did you watch the first two minutes (and 15 seconds) of the video I linked? They have a target of 300 credits (whatever a credit is) per month.

I'm not doubting the content Stefan but rather justifying it as per vienna's post and simply adding that the term 'points for pulls' is a most unfortunate and potentially misleading way of explaining the operation.

I've never seen a LEO being carpetted for failing to keep a high prosecution rate but I have seen one or two disciplined for blatantly ignoring offences committed in selected areas (and subject to 24hr surveillance cameras to verify such inaction).

I still meet a few currently serving LEO's from time to time and I'll be blatantly honest when I say that some of them do refer to the term above but it is an unspoken given that this is not the true situation in reality. Some of them are lazy and go out of their way to avoid such operations but the expectation from up high is always there nevertheless.

[vienna]

The LAPD uses a statistical system for attempting to verify patrol officers are actually doing their jobs and not slacking off or otherwise being derelict in their duties. For example, if an area has a certain average number of a particular violation and suddenly the number noticeably declines, the officers in that area are called in to explain any conditions that may have resulted in the change. If the reason is some sort of change in traffic or pedestrian flow or perhaps a signage change, etc., then the LAPD will note the reason and move on; if there is no compelling reason, then the LAPD investigates and takes appropriate action if it is found the officers are slacking. This hold true of violations other than traffic; if there are sudden drops in the number of drug arrests in an area known for high drug traffic, then the LAPD wants to know the reason; if the drop is the result of better enforcement methods, then the LAPD wants to know what they are doing right so the methods can be expanded to other such areas; and, again, if there is no compelling reason, the LAPD will investigate to determine if the officers are doing their duty, or, worse, if they might possibly be on the take...


<O>

[Stealhead]

The LAPD uses a statistical system for attempting to verify patrol officers are actually doing their jobs and not slacking off or otherwise being derelict in their duties. For example, if an area has a certain average number of a particular violation and suddenly the number noticeably declines, the officers in that area are called in to explain any conditions that may have resulted in the change. If the reason is some sort of change in traffic or pedestrian flow or perhaps a signage change, etc., then the LAPD will note the reason and move on; if there is no compelling reason, then the LAPD investigates and takes appropriate action if it is found the officers are slacking. This hold true of violations other than traffic; if there are sudden drops in the number of drug arrests in an area known for high drug traffic, then the LAPD wants to know the reason; if the drop is the result of better enforcement methods, then the LAPD wants to know what they are doing right so the methods can be expanded to other such areas; and, again, if there is no compelling reason, the LAPD will investigate to determine if the officers are doing their duty, or, worse, if they might possibly be on the take...


<O>
I'd push hard to get assigned to Beverly Hills. I'd give famous people tickets and not show up to court of course I'd imply that to the traffic offender. Then I'd chase away the peasants to keep the property values high. I bet I'd make lieutenant in three or four years.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l8ukak8P2vY

[vienna]

I'd push hard to get assigned to Beverly Hills. I'd give famous people tickets and not show up to court of course I'd imply that to the traffic offender. Then I'd chase away the peasants to keep the property values high. I bet I'd make lieutenant in three or four years.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l8ukak8P2vY

Beverly Hills is a separate city from Los Angeles, although it is pretty much surrounded on three sides by the City of Los Angeles (the fourth side is bordered by the City of West Hollywood, also not part of the City of Los Angeles). The BH Police Department is autonomous from the LAPD and is, in itself a very good department. I've had dealings and encounters with them over the past few decades and have always found them to be professional, courteous and very efficient...

Giving a 'famous person' a ticket is not going to affect them in the least; you might not show up in court, but neither will they; they'll send their attorney who will have the judge dismiss the ticket: in California, if the case goes to trial and the officer doesn't show, it's an automatic dismissal. Add to that the fact very few 'famous people' nowadays actually live in BH and those who venture into the City, are usually in there only long enough to get the face on TMZ...

As far as chasing away the 'peasants', I have not heard of any BH officer using his position to force someone out of the City, not even transients; in fact, BH has in place programs that direct transients to programs to aid those persons with finding lodging, food, and counseling assistance. I have seen first hand, at the BH Public Library, social workers making rounds to find and aid those in need, something I have never seen anywhere else...

As far as making LT., I'm afraid you'd find yourself unemployed long before that would ever happen; the BHPD is a pretty tight ship...


<O>

[Stealhead]

Beverly Hills is a separate city from Los Angeles, although it is pretty much surrounded on three sides by the City of Los Angeles (the fourth side is bordered by the City of West Hollywood, also not part of the City of Los Angeles). The BH Police Department is autonomous from the LAPD and is, in itself a very good department. I've had dealings and encounters with them over the past few decades and have always found them to be professional, courteous and very efficient...

Giving a 'famous person' a ticket is not going to affect them in the least; you might not show up in court, but neither will they; they'll send their attorney who will have the judge dismiss the ticket: in California, if the case goes to trial and the officer doesn't show, it's an automatic dismissal. Add to that the fact very few 'famous people' nowadays actually live in BH and those who venture into the City, are usually in there only long enough to get the face on TMZ...

As far as chasing away the 'peasants', I have not heard of any BH officer using his position to force someone out of the City, not even transients; in fact, BH has in place programs that direct transients to programs to aid those persons with finding lodging, food, and counseling assistance. I have seen first hand, at the BH Public Library, social workers making rounds to find and aid those in need, something I have never seen anywhere else...

As far as making LT., I'm afraid you'd find yourself unemployed long before that would ever happen; the BHPD is a pretty tight ship...


<O>

I am afraid I'll have to report you to the scarcasim police. Or maybe you should report me.

:sunny:

[Schroeder]

I am afraid I'll have to report you to the scarcasim police. Or maybe you should report me.

:sunny:
I've reported you both and got 10 credit points for it.:yeah:


:D

[vienna]

I've reported you both and got 10 credit points for it.:yeah:


:D


JUDAS!!!


<O>

[Schroeder]

JUDAS!!!


<O>
Just be glad I didn't kiss you.:/\\k:


:O:

[vienna]

Never on the first betrayal... :haha:


<O>

[Stealhead]

Surely that was at least a felony times two. Maybe worth 600 credits to the SIA (Scarcastic Investigation Agency). You should see their sarcastic cop/ non-scarastic cop integration method.

[vienna]

Surely that was at least a felony times two. Maybe worth 600 credits to the SIA (Scarcastic Investigation Agency). You should see their sarcastic cop/ non-scarastic cop integration method.


Oh, really, must I?... :roll:


<O>

[Betonov]

Meanwhile in Croatia

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11295610_807308182724052_2458138418629434702_n.jpg ?oh=4da017b13ea7348ee3c69dc271ec0508&oe=564FC9BD