The Confederate Flag Controversy

[Cybermat47]

Not sure where I stand on this one, though I can certainly understand why the flag would upset some people... especially when it's designer explicitly stated that it was a white supremacy flag :doh:

Though of course, it's not like the Hakenkreuz - the flag could be seen as representing an independent South, and the idea of the South being independent isn't inherently racist, unlike Nazism.

[Onkel Neal]

To qualify, I support removing it from any govt office or facility.

[Sailor Steve]

That's why I didn't respond sooner. I wasn't sure if this meant removal from government buildings, which I support, or banning it altogether, which is definitely wrong.

[Betonov]

I said no, because I already made my stance on another thread and it's the same as Steve's.
Government no, private property yes. But private property outnumbers public so in average, I do not support the rmeoval of the Confederate flag*


*This an opinion of a non-american and reflects his attitude if the same issue arose in his home country

[Dowly]

Remove from government buildings.

[Armistead]

Being a former active CS reenactor and now more part time, I hear the numerous arguments. Even the majority of historic reenactors grasp the flag has racist intent and doesn't belong on top of a govt. building that represents the people. I think with it's history, only ignorant people would agree with that and yes we have a lot of them in the South.

However, I am concerned with history and heritage itself. They're numerous movements now to disconnect the flag historically. It's being removed from numerous historic CS landmarks. They're numerous movements to remove not only the flag, but monuments, etc., to the point it can't be flown in museums of CS history.

What's next, to remove great literature from govt libraries such as Tom Sawyer? Yes, many want that too.

I think we're at a fine line and common sense needs to prevail.

[mapuc]

I'm an outsider- My vote doesn't count and isn't it a domestic problem ?

Markus

[Oberon]

I'm with the rest of the folks in this thread. It makes no sense to fly it from government buildings, especially since 9/10 it's the battle flag rather than the dipped in blood/stainless/stars&bars version, but removing it entirely is ridiculous and censorship.

[yubba]

Now that they got their foot in the door,, where will it stop,, I for can tell you it won't,, no where in the constitution does it say you have the right, too, not to be offended,, oohh that's right we are in a post constitutional state of affairs in this country right from the president down to your local dog catcher,, they have forgotten their oath.

[nikimcbee]

I can see not putting it on Federal buildings in the South, but on a state building should be a state's right issue:D.
I'm curious how this will impact Civil War re-enacting since groups/states are banning the sale/display of the battle flag.

See Apple, Gettysburg National Park, Kali-fornia:har:.

[Armistead]

'Dukes of Hazzard' episodes pulled from TV Land due to Confederate flag making appearances in the show.

[August]

'Dukes of Hazzard' episodes pulled from TV Land due to Confederate flag making appearances in the show.

Yet Hogans Heroes with it's liberal displays of swastikas and nazi regalia continues to be aired. Go figure.

[nikimcbee]

Yet Hogans Heroes with it's liberal displays of swastikas and nazi regalia continues to be aired. Go figure.


http://i.ytimg.com/vi/c4r5Mnbujpc/hqdefault.jpg
Auguuuuuust!

[Schroeder]

Yet Hogans Heroes with it's liberal displays of swastikas and nazi regalia continues to be aired. Go figure.
The difference is that the Swastikas were not displayed in a glorifying way and were the symbols of the bad guys who would lose in every episode. By that the swastika became laughing stock. The flag in Dukes of Hazard on the General Lee is quiet different from that and I can understand that some people find it inappropriate that way given the current situation (which doesn't mean I think it's the right thing to do, I don't remember enough about the show to make any informed judgment).

[u crank]

By that the swastika became laughing stock. The flag in Dukes of Hazard on the General Lee is quiet different from that and I can understand that some people find it inappropriate that way given the current situation (which doesn't mean I think it's the right thing to do, I don't remember enough about the show to make any informed judgment).

It was a comedy. Least I thought it was. :O:

[nikimcbee]

It was a comedy. Least I thought it was. :O:

Sounds like Schroeder needs to binge watch Dukes of Hazzard.

HHHMMM, Daisy Dukes...:D

[yubba]

Now that we are banning flags,, why not the British flag ,, it all started with the British anyway, they didn't have to come and colonize ,, north america but,, no they came with soldiers and cannon,, and killed the native inhabitants,, they also brought slaves from Africa,, another country they tried to conquer,, and when the colonist in the americas rose up against tyranny,, the king of england {british} started to kill his own people thus having the American revolution,, there fore I think we should ban the British flag, I can't think of any other flag that symbolizes centuries of oppression and tyranny, and it sorta looks like the confederate flag anyway.. Thank you and have a nice day.

[vienna]

... I can't think of any other flag that symbolizes centuries of oppression and tyranny...

You mean you couldn't think of maybe the Nazi flag, the USSR flag, the PRC flag, the PRK flag among others? It's amazing what one can find if one gives a matter some or any thought at all...

So, you would be OK with banning the UK flag because it is a symbol of "oppression and tyranny"? Then it can be deduced you would likewise agree to ban another symbol of "oppression and tyranny", the Confederate flag; and, if we add treason, sedition, actively consorting with foreign powers against the US (the Confederacy was actively seeking and being given support by the UK; look up "Alabama Claims" to verify) among other transgressions by the Confederacy, it is only logical the "Stars and Bars" is a symbol of things far worse than the Union Jack...

Oh, and my days are always nice... :sunny:



<O>

[Oberon]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/330706/trololo-o.gif

[yubba]

[QUOTE=vienna;2325571]You mean you couldn't think of maybe the Nazi flag, the USSR flag, the PRC flag, the PRK flag among others? It's amazing what one can find if one gives a matter some or any thought at all

Oh, and my days are always nice... :sunny:



non of the above add up to centuries,, american history is intertwinded with the British so it's a valid point,, liberals are loyalist to the crown are they not.

[Oberon]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/2006525/trololo-o.gif

[yubba]

So, if we add treason, sedition, actively consorting with foreign powers against the US

Oh, and my days are always nice... :sunny:



<O>

and yet,, you seem to be ok with Obama doing it

[vienna]

non of the above add up to centuries,, american history is intertwinded with the British so it's a valid point,, liberals are loyalist to the crown are they not.

So, there is a time limit on oppression, tyranny, treason, sedition, actively consorting with foreign powers, etc. Are you saying as long as the transgressions and crimes occur under a certain duration, there is "no harm, no foul"? 'Well, Hitler slaughtered and enslaved for less than twenty years, so it's ok'; 'The USSR only oppressed for less than ninety years, so lets give them a pass'. Tell us, is there also a time restriction on other, mundane crimes? If you are a serial killer for less than, say, five years, do you get a pass until you reach your minimum years of 'service'? How long do you have to mug people or assault people before you are eligible to be arrested? Please tell us so we may be able to discern the despicable from the mere underachieving... :haha:


liberals are loyalist to the crown are they not


Hmm, IIRC, the loyalists to the Crown at the time of the American Revolution were oligarchs, wealthy, privileged businessmen and nobles who were more concerned with keeping the status quo in regards to their big businesses and maintaining their wealth and the power it gave to them. You know, kinda like the Far Right today. It was those pesky liberals in the colonies who had strange ideas about independence and equality and power through democracy rather than wealth and influence who got them upset and caused them to send a fleet and troops to put and end to that nonsense. This country and its government are here not because of what would be now called conservative values...


<O>

[vienna]

and yet,, you seem to be ok with Obama doing it

Specifics please; I prefer facts to rhetoric...


<O>

[August]

Hmm, IIRC, the loyalists to the Crown at the time of the American Revolution were oligarchs, wealthy, privileged businessmen and nobles who were more concerned with keeping the status quo in regards to their big businesses and maintaining their wealth and the power it gave to them. You know, kinda like the Far Right today.

Not that watching you bash the troll isn't fun Vienna but i'm pretty sure that you'd consider me to be Far Right too and i'm none of those things.

Just sayin...

[Platapus]

If the south wants to display the Stars and Bars, I could understand. But the flag under consideration is a battle flag of an illegal rebellion that threatened the United States as a union.

I do not feel it is appropriate to display, other in a restricted strictly historical manner, any battle flag of an enemy of the United States inside the United States.

I used to have a Japanese flag in my room when I was in Martial Arts.. but I would not hang a Japanese battle flag. There is a difference between a national flag and a battle flag. The fact that the United States used the same flag for both, does not nullify this difference.

The fact that a portion of our nation takes pride in what was an illegal rebellion that attempted to affect our sovereignty via unconstitutional means concerns me.

[vienna]

Not that watching you bash the troll isn't fun Vienna but i'm pretty sure that you'd consider me to be Far Right too and i'm none of those things.

Just sayin...

I have said many, many times before in various threads that I am politically an independent. I do bristle when someone calls me a liberal in a pejorative sense. I also bristle when calls me a conservative in a pejorative sense. (There are some who have known me for a while who would say I bristle at most anything.) I really don't care about party affiliation or whatever maybe the political "meme of the day". I have friends and acquaintances who are both conservative and liberal. We have very spirited discussions but the one thing they are not is to the extreme in their politics. They also feel there are those of both stripes who spew rhetoric without gist, those who regurgitate whatever they hear on NPR or Rush or wherever they get their "ideas". I have no quarrel with any of the rational conservatives, like yourself, who are part of this forum. In fact, I often find myself agreeing with a lot of them about a lot of subjects. You may be Far Right, but I don't see you or many of the other persons on this forum as "Good lord, you cant be serious!" Far Right...

I seem to be unable to let slide some of the more inane statements or arguments some of the "trolls", as you put it spew. Perhaps I should also have asked for a time limit on how long one can spew before it is proper to respond...

If I should appear to be harsh to the Far Right, it is unintentional. Let's face it: given the nature, subject and demographics of this board, there aren't exactly going to be a lot of Far Left liberals posting here. I'm just sayin'...


<O>

[vienna]

If the south wants to display the Stars and Bars, I could understand. But the flag under consideration is a battle flag of an illegal rebellion that threatened the United States as a union.

I do not feel it is appropriate to display, other in a restricted strictly historical manner, any battle flag of an enemy of the United States inside the United States.

I used to have a Japanese flag in my room when I was in Martial Arts.. but I would not hang a Japanese battle flag. There is a difference between a national flag and a battle flag. The fact that the United States used the same flag for both, does not nullify this difference.

The fact that a portion of our nation takes pride in what was an illegal rebellion that attempted to affect our sovereignty via unconstitutional means concerns me.

Amen, brother! Preach the Word!...


<O>

[razark]

I fully support removing the flag from most government contexts. If a private citizen wants to fly the flag on their own property, I have no problem with that. If a person wishes to fly a Nazi flag on their property, they are within their right as well. If a company wants to stop selling or displaying the flag, they are within their rights, but the government has no business banning the sale or display of it. I personally do not understand the attachment some people have to the flag.

The flag almost absolutely does not belong on government property.
I don't have an issue with the flag being displayed in historical contexts, such as battlegrounds or cemeteries. I'm not quite decided on the issue of flying it at monuments. (Unless those are privately owned/funded.)

[Onkel Neal]

. Let's face it: given the nature, subject and demographics of this board, there aren't exactly going to be a lot of Far Left liberals posting here. I'm just sayin'...


<O>


What are the demographics of this board ?:hmmm:

[Oberon]

:har::har::har:

[yubba]

There was 17 shootings since monday in Baltimore,, and guess what a flag had nothing to do with it get real and get your heads out of your torpedo tubes.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bs-md-ci-shootings-20150630-story.html

[vienna]

What are the demographics of this board ?:hmmm:

:haha:

Sorry, Neal, I probably should have said the probable demographics: since Subsim does deal with military subject matter it would be logical to deduce a predominantly male population, pro-military, more conservative than liberal, and not a bunch of kale-munching, quinoa-quaffing, hippie-dippie, PRC flag-waving Far Lefties... :haha:

BTW, if I have offended any of the Far Lefties out there, I have done my good deed for the day...



<O>

[vienna]

There was 17 shootings since monday in Baltimore,, and guess what a flag had nothing to do with it get real and get your heads out of your torpedo tubes.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bs-md-ci-shootings-20150630-story.html

By George, Yubba, you're right, it does have nothing to do with a flag...

...and I has nothing to do with the issue government buildings flying treasonous symbols...


<O>

[yubba]

[QUOTE=vienna;2325597]So, there is a time limit on oppression, tyranny, treason, sedition, actively consorting with foreign powers, etc. Are you saying as long as the transgressions and crimes occur under a certain duration, there is "no harm, no foul"? 'Well, Hitler slaughtered and enslaved for less than twenty years, so it's ok'; 'The USSR only oppressed for less than ninety years, so lets give them a pass'. Tell us, is there also a time restriction on other, mundane crimes? If you are a serial killer for less than, say, five years, do you get a pass until you reach your minimum years of 'service'? How long do you have to mug people or assault people before you are eligible to be arrested? Please tell us so we may be able to discern the despicable from the mere underachieving... :haha:



Hmm, IIRC, the loyalists to the Crown at the time of the American Revolution were oligarchs, wealthy, privileged businessmen and nobles who were more concerned with keeping the status quo in regards to their big businesses and maintaining their wealth and the power it gave to them. You know, kinda like the Far Right today. It was those pesky liberals in the colonies who had strange ideas about independence and equality and power through democracy rather than wealth and influence who got them upset and caused them to send a fleet and troops to put and end to that nonsense. This country and its government are here not because of what would be now called conservative values...


<quote> I didn't give a pass to no one you like putting words into peoples mouths.
Since you brought up Hitler ,, and the ussr and other commies, I don't approve of what they did I just brought up the British to make a point that deals with our history that so many are trying to change..There is just as many rich fat cats and special interests in the liberal democrat party as there is in the progressive republican party and you claim to be a libertarian it's about time you and your party got off the fence and figure out what side of the constitution you are on,, I'm a Marine I'm on the side that's going to get me killed with Honor.

[yubba]

By Beorge, Yubba, you're right, it does have nothing to do with a flag...

...and I has nothing to do with the issue government buildings flying treasonous symbols...


<O>

ooooh get over it I did along time ago,, so when are we going to start burning books,,since I have been out of work maybe I should start selling the stars and bars and some civil war memorabilia would go nice with that spencer rifle I have that has been handed down through the family

[Oberon]

http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/fn2/video/876/493/070115_anr_roberts_640.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

Yeehaa. :O:

[yubba]

so far lightning strike,, watchin some folk trying to start a race war is as funny as a monkey trying to start a fire,, neither will know what to do with if they get it started

[Torplexed]

I'm surprised in the light of recent events that no one has tried to re-float the petition to remove the carvings of Generals Lee & Jackson and Jefferson Davis from Stone Mountain in Georgia. ( Personally, I'd be against it.) Interestingly, the owners of the property are thinking of lowering the profile of the Confederate flags they have on display.

https://www.tripsmarter.com/sites/default/files/styles/640x360/public/stonemountain.jpg

[vienna]

I didn't give a pass to no one you like putting words into peoples mouths....

...and you claim to be a libertarian it's about time you and your party...

For someone who claims to dislike people putting words in your mouth, you certainly relish putting words never spoken in other people's mouths. I have always maintained I am politically and independent and have no party of any kind. There was a time when I had to register as a DEM because, until recent years, California required a voter to declare a party in order to vote in primary elections. I registered DEM because here in California, the GOP is a shambles and an embarrassment to the National GOP; also it afforded me an opportunity to cast a vote to keep the Far Left candidates and issues at bay. But even in the time I was a required registered DEM, I always voted my own mind, not a party line or what some media tout spewed. I have voted for members of both the major parties, for rational members of independent parties; I have voted for issues both conservative and liberal and some hard to categorized. But it has always been my mind and my vote and always will be. I defy you to find anywhere in my posts where I have stated I am a Libertarian; it will be a fruitless task...

As far as you being a Marine, I thank you for your service, but I will pass on something an old Marine gunny told me once: "It's one thing to die with honor; it's harder to live with honor and dignity"...


<O>

[vienna]

I'm surprised in the light of recent events that no one has tried to re-float the petition to remove the carvings of Generals Lee & Jackson and Jefferson Davis from Stone Mountain in Georgia. ( Personally, I'd be against it.) Interestingly, the owners of the property are thinking of lowering the profile of the Confederate flags they have on display.

I've got no objections to the Stone Mountain carvings; in fact I had forgotten they existed. Lee, in particular, had a very difficult time making his decision to throw in with the Confederacy. He had been a distinguished military officer in the US Army and was personally averse to splitting the Union. He joined the Confederacy because, as someone noted in another post, those from the South were motivated by defending their holdings as was Lee.

From Wikipedia:

After the war, as President of what is now Washington and Lee University, Lee supported President Andrew Johnson's program of Reconstruction and intersectional friendship, while opposing the Radical Republican's proposals to give freed slaves the vote and take the vote away from ex-Confederates. He urged them to rethink their position between the North and the South, and the reintegration of former Confederates into the nation's political life.


All in all, Lee was not the 'rabid reb' sort that many of the nowadays Southern want to make him out to be....

It is also interesting to note the reference to the "Radical Republicans". I wonder how many people realize how truly hated the GOP was in post-Civil War southern states? And I wonder how many know or remember how the South was called the "Solid South" for its long-time solid voting for DEM candidates and issues; that is, until the DEMS made moves towards desegregation and the GOP openly made overtures to lure disillusioned Southerners in 1968 by using what the GOP called their "Southern Strategy", basically aligning the GOP with the segregationists and thereby alienating African-American voters and supporters of Civil Rights. How 'solid' was the South for the DEMs prior to Civil Rights? In 1952, Eisenhower ran for and was elected President. The man was a war hero, a national icon, beloved of all in the US... except for one very solid region:


http://www.270towin.com/historical_maps/1952.gif


Thus was the hatred of the South against the GOP where even Eisenhower couldn't win. That is why it is foolish to totally give over to a party: at some time, for some reason, they will disappoint...


<O>

[Torplexed]

Thus was the hatred of the South against the GOP where even Eisenhower couldn't win. That is why it is foolish to totally give over to a party: at some time, for some reason, they will disappoint...


<O>

Well said.

http://progressivebumperstickers.com/images/562.jpg

[Oberon]

I've often wondered how Lee would react if he were to see some of the people who go for the Lost Cause of the Confederacy, likewise Jackson.
I'd wager that, once they'd recovered from future shock, they'd probably be dismayed at how their names have been dragged through the mud by not only the victors but the defeated, all to settle a political score.

'Look away, look away' indeed. :dead:

[yubba]

For someone who claims to dislike people putting words in your mouth, you certainly relish putting words never spoken in other people's mouths. I have always maintained I am politically and independent and have no party of any kind. There was a time when I had to register as a DEM because, until recent years, California required a voter to declare a party in order to vote in primary elections. I registered DEM because here in California, the GOP is a shambles and an embarrassment to the National GOP; also it afforded me an opportunity to cast a vote to keep the Far Left candidates and issues at bay. But even in the time I was a required registered DEM, I always voted my own mind, not a party line or what some media tout spewed. I have voted for members of both the major parties, for rational members of independent parties; I have voted for issues both conservative and liberal and some hard to categorized. But it has always been my mind and my vote and always will be. I defy you to find anywhere in my posts where I have stated I am a Libertarian; it will be a fruitless task...

As far as you being a Marine, I thank you for your service, but I will pass on something an old Marine gunny told me once: "It's one thing to die with honor; it's harder to live with honor and dignity"...


<O>
Well exuuuuuussse me I thought I picked up on that a couple of posts back my mistake but that dosen't let you off the hook,, an easier task is to ask you point blank where you stand with the constitution,, see I too have never had any party affiliation ever,, though I leaned to Obama in 2008 figured him out in his inaugural speech,, redistrabution of wealth,, what a commie..,,and what a let down,, so here's your moment of truth,,are you,, for or against the constitution and the founding of this great nation.??? and that crack about living in didnity I have probably done more good with one finger than you'll ever muster in a thousand life times.

[Torplexed]

I've often wondered how Lee would react if he were to see some of the people who go for the Lost Cause of the Confederacy, likewise Jackson.
I'd wager that, once they'd recovered from future shock, they'd probably be dismayed at how their names have been dragged through the mud by not only the victors but the defeated, all to settle a political score.

'Look away, look away' indeed. :dead:

One can only go by the example Lee set in his remaining time on earth until his death in 1870. He distanced himself from divisive symbols of a Civil War that his side lost.

"I think it wiser moreover not to keep open the sores of war," he wrote in a letter, declining an invitation by the Gettysburg Battlefield Memorial Association, and there were no flags flown at his funeral, Confederate or otherwise.

During the dark days of the Confederacy prior to Appomattox, Lee cut off all talk of guerrilla warfare. He was a professional soldier. He had seen more than enough of governors who would be commanders, and he had no respect for ragtag partisans. He told Col. Edward Porter Alexander, his artillery commander, . . . the men would become mere bands of marauders, and the enemy’s cavalry would pursue them and overrun many wide sections they may never have occasion to visit. We would bring on a state of affairs it would take the country years to recover from.”

“And, as for myself, you young fellows might go to bushwhacking, but the only dignified course for me would be, to go to Gen. Grant and surrender myself and take the consequences.” Which is what he did at a farmhouse in the village of Appomattox Court House, wearing a fulldress uniform and carrying a borrowed ceremonial sword which he did not surrender.

Even without the scourge of guerrilla warfare this country is still recovering to this day.

[Armistead]

Yes, Gettysburg and other parks are starting to remove the flag even used in history. They're numerous reenacting events held in these towns, where we go relive history and let the Yanks whoop us. Some of events in Gettysburg that brings in big tourist dollars. Mass rising up of CS reenacting groups starting that will no longer partake of these events.

[Onkel Neal]

:haha:

Sorry, Neal, I probably should have said the probable demographics: since Subsim does deal with military subject matter it would be logical to deduce a predominantly male population, pro-military, more conservative than liberal, and not a bunch of kale-munching, quinoa-quaffing, hippie-dippie, PRC flag-waving Far Lefties... :haha:

BTW, if I have offended any of the Far Lefties out there, I have done my good deed for the day...



<O>
No worries, thanks for the reply. I was curious about your perception of the makeup of the forum participants. I have not done a sampling in quite a while. I think you're right about the subject and nature. As for political leanings, I think we have a diverse group. If I remember, the last time the GT regulars did one of those "where do you fall on the political spectrum" 3rd party surveys, over 2/3 were left of center.

[Aktungbby]

THIS JUST IN::haha: http://i0.wp.com/boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/caglecartoon.jpg?resize=720%2C262

[Oberon]

are you,, for or against the constitution and the founding of this great nation.???

"It is with absolute frankness that we speak of this struggle of the proletariat; each man must choose between joining our side or the other side. Any attempt to avoid taking sides in this issue must end in fiasco."

One can only go by the example Lee set in his remaining time on earth until his death in 1870. He distanced himself from divisive symbols of a Civil War that his side lost.

"I think it wiser moreover not to keep open the sores of war," he wrote in a letter, declining an invitation by the Gettysburg Battlefield Memorial Association, and there were no flags flown at his funeral, Confederate or otherwise.

During the dark days of the Confederacy prior to Appomattox, Lee cut off all talk of guerrilla warfare. He was a professional soldier. He had seen more than enough of governors who would be commanders, and he had no respect for ragtag partisans. He told Col. Edward Porter Alexander, his artillery commander, . . . the men would become mere bands of marauders, and the enemy’s cavalry would pursue them and overrun many wide sections they may never have occasion to visit. We would bring on a state of affairs it would take the country years to recover from.”

“And, as for myself, you young fellows might go to bushwhacking, but the only dignified course for me would be, to go to Gen. Grant and surrender myself and take the consequences.” Which is what he did at a farmhouse in the village of Appomattox Court House, wearing a fulldress uniform and carrying a borrowed ceremonial sword which he did not surrender.

Even without the scourge of guerrilla warfare this country is still recovering to this day.

God, imagine how it would have been if they had carried on with guerrilla warfare, handing down the mission from father to son from generation to generation. The situation as it is is bad enough compared to some other civil wars which have long since past, but...wow. Thank God Lee threw his weight behind a proper organised surrender, and post war reconstruction.

[Wolferz]

I haven't seen anyone burning a confederate flag.

The opposite flag is an entirely different matter.

The stars and bars are a form of free speech. So now we are going to allow the politically correct to dictate rights afforded by the constitution?

It might be time to secede again.:-?

[Jimbuna]

I have probably done more good with one finger than you'll ever muster in a thousand life times.

Won't get involved for possible future moderation reasons but I am intrigued by the above statement.....care to elaborate?

[razark]

The stars and bars are a form of free speech. So now we are going to allow the politically correct to dictate rights afforded by the constitution?
Can you show where the government has forced someone to not display a Confederate flag?

[Schroeder]

Won't get involved for possible future moderation reasons but I am intrigued by the above statement.....care to elaborate?
Obvious troll is obvious.:03:

[Wolferz]

Can you show where the government has forced someone to not display a Confederate flag?

The government/s and their cronies seem to be mounting a PC campaign deriding the display of that flag. Just more misdirection from what is really going on.
All because some deranged little bigot decided to act on his hatred. Can the feds and the odd state governor say they haven't done the same thing on numerous occasions?

It's just more fear mongering plain and simple.

The Stars and Bars are merely a symbol of southern pride, not a penchant to promote slavery. I would say that that dark chapter in our history should be done but, every working adult is a slave to the IRS and the federal banking system.

There are still numerous examples of racism prevalent in our society on both sides of the issue but, free speech affords that right to all and it's one that I swore to defend at one point. I still do.

[razark]

The government/s and their cronies seem to be mounting a PC campaign deriding the display of that flag. Just more misdirection from what is really going on.
The governments have only taken action regarding flags on government property. Some private businesses have stopped selling the flags, but those were on their own decision, not because some government declared they must.


All because some deranged little bigot decided to act on his hatred.
That may have triggered it, but it's a discussion that needed to happen at some point.


The Stars and Bars are merely a symbol of southern pride, not a penchant to promote slavery.
A symbol can mean different things to different people. Aside from the racist connotations it has picked up, it's also the battle flag of an armed rebellion against the government. That's reason enough to remove it from government property. As for being a symbol of southern pride, I've never understood why the south is so damn proud of losing the war. Holding on to it for that long seems kind of silly to me.


...free speech affords that right to all and it's one that I swore to defend at one point. I still do.
If free speech were being violated, I'd agree. It's not.

[Nippelspanner]

I'm an outsider- My vote doesn't count and isn't it a domestic problem ?

Markus
No ones vote here "counts" since this is nothing official.
And your opinion sure counts, nationality doesn't matter here (at least to the admin of the page and most members).

That's why I didn't respond sooner. I wasn't sure if this meant removal from government buildings, which I support, or banning it altogether, which is definitely wrong.
What he said. :yep:

[Wolferz]

A symbol can mean different things to different people. Aside from the racist connotations it has picked up, it's also the battle flag of an armed rebellion against the government. That's reason enough to remove it from government property. As for being a symbol of southern pride, I've never understood why the south is so damn proud of losing the war. Holding on to it for that long seems kind of silly to me. Rebellion?
I see it more as a defense against the first Republican dictator.

Lost the war? I offer clarification...
At first it was thought that the Yanks were coming for the whisky and the women.
When the real purpose of their visit was discovered, we just quit fightin and tried to go home.
Then, Sherman marched to the sea, burning everything in his path. Talk about holding a grudge!:down:

There are no victors in war. If it comes to blows, both sides lose.

[Sailor Steve]

Rebellion?
I see it more as a defense against the first Republican dictator.
Since the secession came the instant he was elected, and the 'dictatorial' acts came long after the South firing the opening shots, that claim really doesn't wash.

[Oberon]

It might be time to secede again.:-?

Because that fixed everything so successfully last time... :har:

[Wolferz]

Since the secession came the instant he was elected, and the 'dictatorial' acts came long after the South firing the opening shots, that claim really doesn't wash.

They knew what was coming...


Ok, I'll concede that point but, let's take a brief look at the racist nature of Abraham Lincoln...
From Wikipedia...


The ACS(American Colonization Society), a private organization supported by prominent American politicians such as Abraham Lincoln (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln), Henry Clay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Clay), and James Monroe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Monroe), believed repatriation was preferable to emancipation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism_in_the_United_States) of slaves.[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberia#cite_note-ATH-14) Similar organizations established colonies in Mississippi-in-Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi-in-Africa) and the Republic of Maryland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Maryland), which were later annexed by Liberia. On July 26, 1847, the settlers issued a Declaration of Independence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberian_Declaration_of_Independence) and promulgated a constitution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberian_Constitution_of_1847), which, based on the political principles denoted in the United States Constitution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution), created the independent Republic of Liberia.

Let's not stray too far off topic.

[Sailor Steve]

Ok, I'll concede that point but, let's take a brief look at the racist nature of Abraham Lincoln...
And Thomas Jefferson felt the same. The question is whether that was racism or an honest belief that the two could not co-exist in the same country. I've never argued that Lincoln was perfect, or even right. The problem is that the "racism" argument is a diversion, meant to direct the discussion away from The South. Any and all of Lincoln's foibles do not change the fact that he said he didn't want war with them, but only to preserve the Union, and that they started the war and have been blaming it on him ever since.

Let's not stray too far off topic. Then don't make claims that have nothing to do with the thread, and then cry "off-topic" when somebody answers them.

[VipertheSniper]

I read that on another forum a week ago or so...


the one thing i wish is that, with everyone covering this, that someone (and i'm really disappointed in PBS here) would make reference to the _original_ documents from the beginning of the civil war. because all this nonsense about "it's not about racism, it's just that some people have chosen to misappropriate it, it's just about our history and culture."
bull
****.

the history and culture that flag represents is all _about_ racism. the Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp)- it was about slavery:

Quote: These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection. the only state's right they cared about was their right to own slaves. they didn't even like the idea that _other_ states "permitted establishment of societies" opposed to slavery - what, other states allow people to exercise their rights of free speech and assembly, if they did so to criticize the south?

and of course, there is the "cornerstone speech" (http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/cornerstone-speech/), in which the vice-president of the newly-formed CSA, Alexander Stephens, went on about how much better the CSA was than the USA: (sorry, long quote but it's truly amazing - i bolded the most important bits)

The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the “storm came and the wind blew.”

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. there it is, in all it's glory - the core of the confederacy. they, alone, got it right, that blacks were inferior to whites and it was _natural_ for them to be slaves.

if you want to insist that you want to use the flag that represented that government as a critical part of your heritage and history, fine - but then you own all of that. you are owning that your heritage and history is, indeed, founded on racism, celebrates racism, was created solely for the furtherance of racism.

you are right, Sen. Graham - that _is_ who you are.

[eddie]

I favor that it shouldn't be displayed on Govt buildings. What people do with it in their own homes, is their business. I have a small one, but don't display it outside. I am a Civil War buff of sorts, mainly interested in the military side of it. I have a small display on my wall in an office in my home, along with a small American flag. Part of a display with pictures of famous Generals from that period, and a collection of books covering the campaigns during the war. Hardly see anything wrong with that. Only way people could see it is if they entered that room. So I have no problem having it like that. Not taking it down either. I respect the views of those who get upset displaying it in public, and I don't do it to upset anyone, but its in MY home, not outside.

[Sailor Steve]

I have a reverse observation: Here in Utah everyone flies the American flag on the Fourth of July, just like everywhere else. I sometimes make the point that Utah was founded by a group of people who came here to get away from the United States. Once they were here Prophet, Seer, Revelator and Governor Brigham Young spent the next thirty years trying to get Utah made a state, which was refused because of the practice of polygamy. It took another twenty after Brother Brigham's passing to get the practice outlawed here and for Utah to finally become a state. Now, thanks to the recent Supreme Court ruling, I expect the practice to be reconsidered. I'm sure most Utahans will be against it, but we'll see.

What goes around does indeed come around. :sunny:

[vienna]

Well exuuuuuussse me I thought I picked up on that a couple of posts back my mistake but that dosen't let you off the hook,, an easier task is to ask you point blank where you stand with the constitution,, see I too have never had any party affiliation ever,, though I leaned to Obama in 2008 figured him out in his inaugural speech,, redistrabution of wealth,, what a commie..,,and what a let down,, so here's your moment of truth,,are you,, for or against the constitution and the founding of this great nation.??? and that crack about living in didnity I have probably done more good with one finger than you'll ever muster in a thousand life times.

It is interesting how, when unable to defend you stance as it relates to the subject of a thread, you resort to puffed-up patriotic posturing as a means of diverting note of your paucity of logic or rationale. So, let's see: the rule is, when you've run out of arguments you run up the flag...

...Samuel Johnson once made the statement that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. I really do hope you, sir, are not a scoundrel...

As for my stand on the Constitution, as with many of my beliefs it is my own; I will say, if I had to choose between the true word of the Constitution and the gross misrepresentations of those of all political stripes, I have and always will go back to the word as writ and not the word as twisted...

BTW, I was prepared to vote for John McCain, a person I highly respect, in 2008, until the Far Right wingnuts saddled him with that albatross named Palin...


<O>

[vienna]

One can only go by the example Lee set in his remaining time on earth until his death in 1870. He distanced himself from divisive symbols of a Civil War that his side lost.

"I think it wiser moreover not to keep open the sores of war," he wrote in a letter, declining an invitation by the Gettysburg Battlefield Memorial Association, and there were no flags flown at his funeral, Confederate or otherwise.

During the dark days of the Confederacy prior to Appomattox, Lee cut off all talk of guerrilla warfare. He was a professional soldier. He had seen more than enough of governors who would be commanders, and he had no respect for ragtag partisans. He told Col. Edward Porter Alexander, his artillery commander, . . . the men would become mere bands of marauders, and the enemy’s cavalry would pursue them and overrun many wide sections they may never have occasion to visit. We would bring on a state of affairs it would take the country years to recover from.”

“And, as for myself, you young fellows might go to bushwhacking, but the only dignified course for me would be, to go to Gen. Grant and surrender myself and take the consequences.” Which is what he did at a farmhouse in the village of Appomattox Court House, wearing a fulldress uniform and carrying a borrowed ceremonial sword which he did not surrender.

Even without the scourge of guerrilla warfare this country is still recovering to this day.

There was a time when there was a term "Southern Gentleman"; Lee was certainly a prime example of the term. I have long admired his intelligence, skill, and humanity as he exhibited in his professional and political life. One can only wonder what could have been done if Lincoln, with his mercy and compassion towards the defeated South, had lived and been able to work with the likes of Lee. It is very probable the South today would be a far better place...


No worries, thanks for the reply. I was curious about your perception of the makeup of the forum participants. I have not done a sampling in quite a while. I think you're right about the subject and nature. As for political leanings, I think we have a diverse group. If I remember, the last time the GT regulars did one of those "where do you fall on the political spectrum" 3rd party surveys, over 2/3 were left of center.

I am a little bit surprised about the extent of the left of center leanings. Perhaps it is like with a lot of such things: there is a tendency for those whose views are strongly opposed to the main's leaning to more vocally express their dissatisfaction and for the appearance to be that those so vocal tend to speak for the majority. I now stand corrected (or seated corrected to be honest)...

If it appears I take aim primarily at the Right, it is not at the Right in general but the very Far Right who, I feel, are actively destroying the GOP. If it appears I am not taking swings at the Far Left, let's be honest, there aren't a lot of Far Lefties posting here; point me towards one and I assure you I have ample munitions to score a few well-placed hits...

One good thing about a lot of the GT posters is there are a great many knowledgeable and thoughtful persons here and they have done well in pricking the balloons of those who try to put one over. I do try to stay as firmly center as possible, but I am not averse being a bit of a prick... :D


<O>

[Oberon]

there aren't a lot of Far Lefties posting here; point me towards one and I assure you I have ample munitions to score a few well-placed hits...

According to some I'm left of Marx. :O:

[vienna]

Karl or Groucho?


http://img.youtube.com/vi/sCzgdF_WjOg/hqdefault.jpg



<O>

[Rockstar]

A radicalized Marxist extremist eh?

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/jky242/c7af7853076a4d225be68d709bb8974c.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

Needs more submarines and Harleys :shucks:

[Oberon]

A radicalized Marxist extremist eh?



The freedom

The democracy

The hamburgers...

I...I can't take it...I...

Aaaaaaaargh

https://clementsgame.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/4232328853_d5a3083f39_z.jpg


Karl or Groucho?

<O>

Depends on the day, some days both. :haha:

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

The freedom

The democracy

The hamburgers...

I...I can't take it...I...

Aaaaaaaargh

https://clementsgame.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/4232328853_d5a3083f39_z.jpg




Depends on the day, some days both. :haha:
http://s6.postimg.org/vnosuty4h/Groucho_Marx_Vector_Poster_by_mikevectores.png
Anyways, I'd go with the remove the Stars and Bars from government buildings and if a person has in on their lawn or window or car then that's fine by me.

[vienna]

The freedom

The democracy

The hamburgers...

I...I can't take it...I...

Aaaaaaaargh


Can we supersize that for you and do you want fries with that...


<O>

[Torplexed]

Can we supersize that for you and do you want fries with that...


<O>

http://pyxis.homestead.com/Odd_Bodkins.jpg

[AngusJS]

Yes. Tear it down from all government property (except war cemeteries and museums). It has no business being flown by the SC state government, and it's just going to have to come off the Mississippi flag.

Don't ban it. People can sell it, buy it and fly it if they want.

But those who sell or fly the flag shouldn't come crying when their choices come back to bite them in the form of boycotts, being ostracized, etc.

And for god's sake, bring the Dukes of Hazard back, keep the Gettysburg game up, etc. You have to look at the context of how the flag is used. My grandpa and I used to watch the Dukes of Hazard, and us liberal Yankees were definitely not white supremacists who yearned for the days of Jim Crow or worse.

[Frömmler Vogel]

Good article from the Washington Post on the revision of history by supporters of the Confederate cause:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/07/01/why-do-people-believe-myths-about-the-confederacy-because-our-textbooks-and-monuments-are-wrong/

The civil war was only ever about white supremacy and any attempts to argue counter to that is simply dishonest.

[Sailor Steve]

I wrote something similar five years ago.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1358229&postcount=44

[Penguin]

To qualify, I support removing it from any govt office or facility.

That's ok, the government shouldn't support any allegiaance - goes for the pledge, too.

The demonization of the battle flag as a symbol of racism and hate looks like the typical solution: "let's blame zombie movies, heavy metal and video games, without them we'd live in freaking paradise."

[Fr8monkey]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/42938357.jpg

[eddie]

Good article from the Washington Post on the revision of history by supporters of the Confederate cause:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/07/01/why-do-people-believe-myths-about-the-confederacy-because-our-textbooks-and-monuments-are-wrong/

The civil war was only ever about white supremacy and any attempts to argue counter to that is simply dishonest.

Loved this part of his unbiased article-"Confederate cavalry leader Jubal Early ransomed $200,000 from them lest he burn their town, a sum equal to about $3 million today."

First, in his unbiased way, he forgot to mention Union General David Hunter, who had burned down parts of Lexington, Va and was heading for Lynchburg. That's when Lee dispatched Early and his 14,000 men to head him off. And Early drove him all the way back into West Virgina before he headed north. So yes, he threatened to burn Chambersburg, which was a payback for what Hunter did in Virginia. And early was NOT a Cavalry General, never had been. Always in charge of infantry.

Wonder what this authors thoughts are on how well freed slaves were treated in the North after the war ended. I can imagine what that fairy tale would be like,lol

[Aktungbby]

And early was NOT a Cavalry General, never had been. Always in charge of infantry.

NOPE: After graduating from the Academy, Early fought against the Seminole (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seminole_(tribe)) in Florida as a second lieutenant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Lieutenant#United_States) in the 3rd U.S. Artillery regiment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Regiment_of_Artillery) : artillery is not infantry!

[Torplexed]

So yes, he threatened to burn Chambersburg, which was a payback for what Hunter did in Virginia. And early was NOT a Cavalry General, never had been. Always in charge of infantry.


And even you are making reading errors. It was the town of Frederick, Maryland that General Early ransomed and threatened to burn down, not Chambersburg. The town of Chambersburg, Maryland eventually was burned down later by Confederate cavalry in retaliation for Hunter's raid and for failing to provide a ransom of $100,000 in gold. I think the author's main point is that although Maryland was very tepid in it's support for the Confederacy when there still was one, and suffered some deprivations from the war, it tends to play up it's Southern monuments and heritage now for the tourist dollars.

And I do sometimes wonder if this endless mincing we Americans do over Civil War minutiae and flags isn't just a cover for dealing with the deeper issues.

[Betonov]

And I do sometimes wonder if this endless mincing we Americans do over Civil War minutiae and flags isn't just a cover for dealing with the deeper issues.

It is. We have the same symptom.
Plus let's not forget for a magician (politician) to perform a magic trick (self serving) the audience (people) have too look at one hand (non important issue) so they don't see the other hand perform (steal)

[Armistead]

The flag may actually make a comeback as a sign of defiance if this political correctness goes too far. Even in our small town we had a confederate soldier statute of a single man, actually the size of a man in front of a graveyard that had numerous CSA soldiers. Not long ago is was ran over with a truck and damaged by a black man on purpose. The SOC paid to have it repaired, but the city wouldn't put it back up. The end result it now sits more exposed on a hill with a CS flag over it on private property and most the politicians were voted out.

The flag is two fold, while it represents racism, it also reflects defiance and heritage, telling an overbearing govt. to kiss our ass. Slavery was a cultural issue then that had been in existence since mankind. The support for slavery goes back to biblical days. People were still just too ignorant to get it.

Beyond racism, people of like still tend to group together. Certainly not like my generation where all the whites hung out together and all the blacks hung out. People still feel safer and more comfortable around people that do and act like them. In our town, you have black churches and white churches. black sides of towns where few whites dare go. White sections or neighborhoods where blacks wouldn't roam for fear of arrest.

I think diversity of culture adds a richness to America, but it also separates us. The problem is political correctness good old southern heritage cannot be separated from racism for some, so now our history must be attacked and put away as well. The end result, we become even more divided, just more hidden.

No doubt slavery made people helpless and dependent on the democrat white "Massa", divided and destroyed families and sadly it continues today on Uncle Sam's plantation.

[Oberon]

In short, is there any way to do something without over-reacting in the US?

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/5114798/images/1246940136885.jpg

[Torplexed]

In short, is there any way to do something without over-reacting in the US?

Track record says no.

http://capitalogix.typepad.com/.a/6a00e5502e47b288330133f5a96ec5970b-800wi

[Armistead]

Our melting pot of cultures, races, religions and politics has come to a boil and is running over.

[Oberon]

https://cean.us/pol/src/14122627583.png

[Aktungbby]

The flag may actually make a comeback as a sign of defiance if this political correctness goes too far. it also reflects defiance and heritage, telling an overbearing govt. to kiss our ass.
I think diversity of culture adds a richness to America, but it also separates us. The problem is political correctness good old southern heritage cannot be separated from racism for some, so now our history must be attacked and put away as well. The end result, we become even more divided, just more hidden.

http://www.oldgloryprints.com/1st_TN_Color_Bearer.jpgYeah BBY! of course we could all head for Santa Barbara D'Oeste, Brazil where they still do it right! http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/51D7/production/_83815902_026994687-1.jpg

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33245800 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33245800) Dancin' on the colors http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/FB69/production/_83816346_83815903.jpg

[Torplexed]

Yeah BBY! of course we could all head for Santa Barbara D'Oeste, Brazil where they still do it right!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33245800 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33245800) Dancin' on the colors

Great. Now I have to figure which is scarier. Brazilian Confederates or Illinois Nazis. :hmmm:

http://pyxis.homestead.com/confederos-brazilios.jpg

[Oberon]

Great. Now I have to figure which is scarier. Brazilian Confederates or Illinois Nazis. :hmmm:



How about Brazilian Nazis?

http://image.wangchao.net.cn/bt/1245608366131.jpg

[Torplexed]

How about Brazilian Nazis?



Winner, winner chicken dinner. :)

The Seventies. A decade riddled with scheming, exiled Nazis.

https://adammohrbacher.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/30901210.png?w=695

https://albertoraiser.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/sir-laurence-olivier.jpg


Is it say-ffuuhh?

http://vivandlarry.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/mary-ellen-mark.jpg

[Jeff-Groves]

Hey! I got a Civil War photo!
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Stuff/Eddie_Murphy.jpg

:haha:

[Onkel Neal]

Winner, winner chicken dinner. :)

The Seventies. A decade riddled with scheming, exiled Nazis.


https://albertoraiser.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/sir-laurence-olivier.jpg


Is it say-ffuuhh?



One of my all-time favorite novels! By the author of the Princess Bride, as well as Butch Cassidy, William Goldman.

[Penguin]

Hey! I got a Civil War photo!
:haha:

:o I..Is your bud carrying a 150 year old bottle of booze? Hold on, the next flight from here to Ohio leaves in 8 hours...

[Armistead]

See several CS statues were vandalized or painted on in Va and NC. Just a matter of time it will be a tic for a tac.

[Oberon]

http://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1386/53/1386532770701.jpg

[Torplexed]

See several CS statues were vandalized or painted on in Va and NC. Just a matter of time it will be a tic for a tac.


Sad, but I guess even the monuments at Gettysburg N.B. get routinely trashed and vandalized, so it's not like there is a great deal of respect out there for ACW memorials. :down: Either that or this trans-gender rights movement is now retroactive to the Civil War.

http://civilwartalk.com/attachments/vandalized-jpg.3687/

[GT182]

No Confederate flags on federal buildings is a no brainer. But isn't banning them a breach of our civil rights and the 2nd Amendment? I've never seen it as racist, just a flag of the Ol South and Civil War.

[razark]

But isn't banning them a breach of our civil rights and the 2nd Amendment?
Absolutely not.
A breach of the first amendment? Yes.

Not that I've seen anyone banning or calling for a ban.

[Armistead]

The big issue is outside of parks the South has numerous monuments that many want removed, including road names in cities, schools and even simple historical markers in view of public. Hell, hope they don't try that in our small town, we have like seven blocks named after confederate figures. Funny, this is the side of town now where mostly blacks live now.

[vienna]

https://i0.wp.com/i428.photobucket.com/albums/qq8/callysta1/20000119edhan-a.gif



<O>

[Aktungbby]

The flag may actually make a comeback as a sign of defiance if this political correctness goes too far. JUST SPOTTED THIS GEM: things could get worse??!!http://tightrope.cc/catalog/images/rebel-ss-flag.jpg (http://tightrope.cc/catalog/flags-rebel-ss-flag-p-1424.html):doh: