McDonald's workers: 'supersize my check'

[Onkel Neal]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2015/05/21/mcdonalds-workers-shareholders-meeting-protest/27705321/

McDonald's CEO Steve Easterbrook told shareholders on Thursday that he was "incredibly proud" of the company's recent efforts to increase its workers pay as thousands of protesters calling for a $15 an hour minimum wage gathered outside the fast food company's headquarters.

The demonstrators – chanting for McDonald's to "supersize my check" – came to Oak Brook this week to call McDonald's out for insufficient pay, drawing negative attention to the fast food giant two weeks after Easterbrook's announced turnaround plan failed to impress investors. The annual shareholders meeting marked Easterbrook's first as the company's CEO.

Easterbrook pushed back that McDonald's has been on the industry's cutting edge on the issue, when it announced earlier this year that it would start paying workers $1 per hour above the local minimum wage. The hike, however, only applies to company-owned McDonald's which account for about 10% of stores in the USA.

"I am incredibly proud of the announcement we made around minimum wage," Easterbrook said of the $1 per hour hike. "We voluntarily took a leadership position on this."

$15 an hour for flipping burgers.... man, I don't know what to say. :hmmm: Do they think that kind of work is worth $15 an hour? What do they think will happen if these these entry-level jobs get up to $15 an hour? The price of fast food will stay the same? No, everything will go up along with their pay, the companies cannot pull the money out of the air, and they are not going to reduce profits, duh, that's what they are running a business for.

So, if burger flippers and coffee makers get $15 an hour, teachers and managers will go up to $35 an hour, truck drivers will get $50 an hour, plant operators will be at $75 an hour, and so on. Let's bring on the inflation.

[Torplexed]

While I can see the pros and cons of $15 an hour, I sense that due to these wage demands a technological trend that is already underway will accelerate.

http://d3819ii77zvwic.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/robot.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

While I agree there needs to be a set minimum wage, how did they decide it should be $15?:timeout:

[Oberon]

Never try to discuss economics with those at the low end of the wage scale.

http://cdn0.dailydot.com/cache/b4/1e/b41eb9f427bfe234a54aaf0c13107d99.jpg

[Torplexed]

While I agree there needs to be a set minimum wage, how did they decide it should be $15?:timeout:

There is a radio talk show host here in Seattle who pressed the proponents of the $15.00 minimum wage on this issue. Why not $20.00--$30.00--$50.00 an hour?

They simply dodged his questions, changed the subject or tried to laugh them off. At some point they just refused his calls to be on the show. I think they sense they can only push the issue so far.

Anyway, we have a $15.00 per hour minimum wage being phased into place here in Seattle now. I guess we will see.

[Oberon]

While I agree there needs to be a set minimum wage, how did they decide it should be $15?:timeout:

I got to agree, at face value, $15 is daft, our current minimum wage is $10.18.
Honestly though, a minimum wage should be tied to the current cost of living in the nation that it is applied to, or the 'living wage' as it's called over here, which is $12.28. I'm not sure what it is in the US, I expect it varies from state to state and to each persons condition.
Ah, it looks like MIT has done the number crunching (they're good at that), and for you, Neal, as a single person in Texas it's $10.13.
http://livingwage.mit.edu/states/48

Honestly though, companies have a responsibility for the well being of their employees, and that includes, to an extent, their fiscal well-being, and if that's not being met by the wages they are providing then the employee will suffer.
Ultimately, what a company wants is a person who is fit and healthy, both mentally and physically, and who will perform to their best. A person who is struggling to make ends meet will not do this, they will work long hours and be tired at their job, they will possibly put off medical conditions to avoid costs, thus reducing their overall effectiveness. You can only push the human body so far before it breaks down, and these days companies will push their staff as far as they can in order to get the maximum about of use out of them for the minimum about of input.
I know it's basic economics, exploit what you have to the most that you can with as little effort as possible, but at some point along the line you have to realise that what you have will go further if you look after it well, rather than discarding it and getting fresh recruits.
Some companies realise this, and they tend to have a pretty loyal and dedicated staff base, Virgin and Google are two that come to mind immediately, although I am sure there are others. Obviously in any corporation you get exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking they are very forward thinking when it comes to employee treatment, and it tends to pay off.

Generally speaking though, I find the trend of the widening gap between the top and bottom portions of society to be incredibly concerning, and something I suspect that will bite society in the arse in the future...but that's another story entirely.

[Torplexed]

Honestly though, companies have a responsibility for the well being of their employees, and that includes, to an extent, their fiscal well-being, and if that's not being met by the wages they are providing then the employee will suffer.
Ultimately, what a company wants is a person who is fit and healthy, both mentally and physically, and who will perform to their best. A person who is struggling to make ends meet will not do this, they will work long hours and be tired at their job, they will possibly put off medical conditions to avoid costs, thus reducing their overall effectiveness. You can only push the human body so far before it breaks down, and these days companies will push their staff as far as they can in order to get the maximum about of use out of them for the minimum about of input.
I know it's basic economics, exploit what you have to the most that you can with as little effort as possible, but at some point along the line you have to realise that what you have will go further if you look after it well, rather than discarding it and getting fresh recruits.
Some companies realise this, and they tend to have a pretty loyal and dedicated staff base, Virgin and Google are two that come to mind immediately, although I am sure there are others. Obviously in any corporation you get exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking they are very forward thinking when it comes to employee treatment, and it tends to pay off.


I did enjoy this satirical summation from The Onion--

As cities around the country, including Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, and Seattle, pass or propose legislation to substantially increase the minimum wage for workers, debate has raged over the potential economic, social, and fiscal impact. Here are some of the pros and cons of raising the minimum wage:

PROS


Lifts workers out of poverty to brink of poverty
One less thing to feel guilty about when leaving Chick-fil-A
Shorter lines at pawn shops
Higher morale among workers who aren’t casualties of cost-cutting layoffs
Gets picketers out of pathway to Big Mac
Bargain compared to cost of creating actual social safety net

CONS


Workers will grow complacent and lazy if they can afford basic human needs
Still just as insulting that your boss pays you lowest amount he or she legally allowed to
Awkwardness of being served by cashiers wearing top hats and monocles
16-year-old cashier set to live like a freaking king for rest of summer
Employee benefits like paid vacation, gym membership, and yoga sessions could be slashed for thousands of line cooks and convenience store clerks
Increases expense of exploiting workers

http://www.theonion.com/graphic/pros-and-cons-raising-minimum-wage-50476

[Oberon]

:haha: Ah, The Onion, the hammer that never misses the head of the nail. :up:

[em2nought]

I know it's basic economics, exploit what you have to the most that you can with as little effort as possible

I'm trying to picture the last fast food employee that was working so hard that I thought they were being exploited. :har:

[Oberon]

I'm trying to picture the last fast food employee that was working so hard that I thought they were being exploited. :har:

That's exactly my point, money is, after all, the greatest motivator. You give someone a good job environment and good pay and they should reflect that.
Of course, you're still going to get people who are unmotivated even in the best working environments, if you didn't then Human Resources and middle management wouldn't have a role to play. However, giving a person a living wage should go a long way. If that person decides to spend that wage on drink and drugs rather than living then that is their choice and it will reflect in their work ability (showing up hung-over, stealing from work to buy more drugs) and they will likely wind up either fired or warned into behaving appropriately.

It's by no means a one shot solution, no solution is perfect, but I think that it would go a long way. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Just as well I don't eat McDonald's....probably won't be able to afford it soon.

[Gargamel]

It will be a cold day in hell.....

This issue pisses me off to no end.

I was a critical care paramedic for 12 years, spanning various services from primary 911 to tertiary transport to airborne pediatric critical care to urban level 1 trauma ER tech.

I never once held a full time spot that paid more than $12.50 an hour. I would frequently hold multiple jobs just to make ends meet.

I left the job I loved 4 years ago because the money wasn't there.

I went into UNSKILLED LABOR IN A FACTORY making almost twice what I did as a medic. I walked in the door as a temporary employee for 6 months, and even then I made more than a medic, and my job was practically lifting boxes. It has progressed since then, significantly, where money really isn't a major concern for me. And the workload is considerably easier than as a medic. (Scheduled breaks, what the hell are those? I get to go home at my scheduled time? Well that's a novel idea!)

Lots of my friends are active medics, and my girlfriend is in school to do the same. She is going to start off at only a few bucks more than minimum, if that, when she starts working.

These people, myself included in the past, put their lives on the line every day for a bunch of unappreciative a-holes.

If these idiots who think flipping burgers should be a career, they stop and take a look at what others in their pay range are doing for the same amount.

If they don't like the pay, THEN GO GET A JOB THAT PAYS. I don't want to hear a damn thing about how there aren't any jobs that pay that much in their qualifications. Bull****, I'm living proof there is. They just don't want to do the leg work to find a place.

If they don't like the job, then they can go on strike. Oh wait, there's 30 other people willing to work that after school.

Fast food is NOT supposed to be a career. There are paths, like MCd's management path that do make a good career, and any employee can work their way up. But cashiers and cooks are NOT supposed to be Career. It's for part timers to make some extra cash.

So unless they start paying the EMS community $30-$40 an hour if these idiots get $15, I will be mightily inclined to start fire bombing fast food joints. And then I'll move to the Netherlands, they seem like they have their act together a bit more than we do.

[Aktungbby]

These people, myself included in the past, put their lives on the line every day for a bunch of unappreciative a-holes.

If these idiots who think flipping burgers should be a career, they stop and take a look at what others in their pay range are doing for the same amount. Precisely! I've mentioned to my el cheapo employer that I'll need a raise once the McFlipper's start getting $15.00 an hour. I'm not earning the same rate as a hamburger flipper for what I do.

[Betonov]

I worked making luxury boats for €6 an hour and it was a well payed job.

Can an American tell me what's the price of a:
loaf of bread (average store quality)
a pound of meat, some middle quality cut
a pint of beer in a local pub
a litre of gasoline
a big mack

I want to compare with Slovenia and I want prices for average areas, not lower manhattan or beverly hills.

[Aktungbby]

^$2.50; $4.50 lb+; $8.00 in a bar; $3.70(currently) gal.; $4.79 respectively http://www.statista.com/statistics/274326/big-mac-index-global-prices-for-a-big-mac/ (http://www.statista.com/statistics/274326/big-mac-index-global-prices-for-a-big-mac/)

[Oberon]

So unless they start paying the EMS community $30-$40 an hour if these idiots get $15, I will be mightily inclined to start fire bombing fast food joints. And then I'll move to the Netherlands, they seem like they have their act together a bit more than we do.

According to payscale.com, a UK paramedic gets a median of £25k/year, which basing that on a 37.5 hour work week (they should be so lucky), works out around £12.82/hr, which translates into $19.85. So honestly, a pay-rise to EMTs to between $25-30 an hour would make sense in my opinion, likewise to other front-line forces (police and fire).

The problem is, short of direct governmental intervention in the economic markets, it is a vicious cycle. Companies will raise their prices if they have to raise their wages, which means that the cost of living will go up which means they'll have to raise their wages again. It is one of the fatal flaws in the capitalist system, you are always running to stand still.

[Betonov]

Right now 1 euro is 1.1 dollars, so I'll just post in euros.

Slovenia: bread €0,70; a pound of meat €3.00; a pint of beer €2,20; a litre of gas 1,50 (about 5,50 per gallon); big mack about €4.00

Apart from bread and beer, the US is not that much more expensive to live and our minimal wage is €4/h. €15 is a mid level managers pay here.

[Platapus]

While I agree there needs to be a set minimum wage, how did they decide it should be $15?:timeout:

One of the problems is that the government is reluctant to explain, clearly, what the purpose/goal of the minimum wage is.

Is a single person expected to maintain their life based solely on a minimum wage rate? Dunno. The government does not state that.

That has always been my question about the minimum wage -- what is it intended to do. Without knowing that, it is impossible to evaluate what the minimum wage should nor should not be.

[Oberon]

One of the problems is that the government is reluctant to explain, clearly, what the purpose/goal of the minimum wage is.

Is a single person expected to maintain their life based solely on a minimum wage rate? Dunno. The government does not state that.

That has always been my question about the minimum wage -- what is it intended to do. Without knowing that, it is impossible to evaluate what the minimum wage should nor should not be.

I can't really confirm for the US government (sadly I'm not employed by them), but I think the goal of the minimum wage in general is either to meet the living wage of a nations employees, or to be a compromise between the living wage and what industries can afford. It depends on nation to nation, really. In the UK it's the latter, in other nations it's the former.

[Wolferz]

Give the Micky D's folks their pound of worm burgers.

Taco Bell will thank you for making them a reservation only restaurant chain.:up:

[mapuc]

Here is how I see it.

I don't want to pay to much for an hamburger, but I don't like to see an employee to be a working poor, so I can get a cheap hamburger or other things cheap.

Oh well what do I know

Markus

[vienna]

California's minimum wage is US$9.00 per hour. Based on a 40 hour week, that's US$360 per week or, over a 52 week year, US$1,560 per month. The average rent in in CA is $US1,957 per month. By these numbers, a person working for minimum wage in CA is, on average, roughly US$400 in the hole. Also, remember, the US$1,560 per month is pre-tax income out of which is automatically deducted Federal and State income taxes and Social Security taxes, leaving a net income of well below the gross...

It is amazing to me how persons earning minimum wage ever manage to make ends meet and survive. To a lot of us, maybe it's just "flipping burgers"; to those who do the "flipping", it's a struggle for basic life...


<O>

[Oberon]

California's minimum wage is US$9.00 per hour. Based on a 40 hour week, that's US$360 per week or, over a 52 week year, US$1,560 per month. The average rent in in CA is $US1,957 per month. By these numbers, a person working for minimum wage in CA is, on average, roughly US$400 in the hole. Also, remember, the US$1,560 per month is pre-tax income out of which is automatically deducted Federal and State income taxes and Social Security taxes, leaving a net income of well below the gross...

It is amazing to me how persons earning minimum wage ever manage to make ends meet and survive. To a lot of us, maybe it's just "flipping burgers"; to those who do the "flipping", it's a struggle for basic life...


<O>

Well put, I think that it's partly this and the increase in house prices which is seeing a large section of todays youth living with their parents for longer periods. For a lot of youth, the flipping burgers is their first place after school, especially if they have done poorly at school, whether their school performance is their fault or the school is a topic for another thread so let's not go there, but you'll find that catering and cleaning is where most of the early school leavers go. On the minimum wage on these jobs, even working full-time, they cannot afford to buy or rent a property, so they hang on and wait to see if a better paid job will come up.
Now, law of averages dictates that with millions of kids doing this across a country, there's going to be a lot of people trying to fit into a small hole and that's going to mean a lot of 'Thank you for applying for this job, we're sorry but...' letters in the mail (if they're courteous enough to even bother with such things), and that's going to mean another week flipping burgers.
Who knows how long such a situation would continue for some? It's a numbers game really, and it does absolutely nothing for your self-esteem, especially when everyone else is looking down their noses at you like you're some kind of lower class scum just because you work at McDonalds.
Little wonder so many turn to drink and drugs. :/\\!!

[Aktungbby]

Taco Bell will thank you for making them a reservation only restaurant chain.:up: Not once I open my Twin Peaks Restaurant Franchise in NAPA:rock:(I belive one has just become available:O:) ... then every one will have reservations:doh:

[Buddahaid]

California's minimum wage is US$9.00 per hour. Based on a 40 hour week, that's US$360 per week or, over a 52 week year, US$1,560 per month. The average rent in in CA is $US1,957 per month. By these numbers, a person working for minimum wage in CA is, on average, roughly US$400 in the hole. Also, remember, the US$1,560 per month is pre-tax income out of which is automatically deducted Federal and State income taxes and Social Security taxes, leaving a net income of well below the gross...

It is amazing to me how persons earning minimum wage ever manage to make ends meet and survive. To a lot of us, maybe it's just "flipping burgers"; to those who do the "flipping", it's a struggle for basic life...


<O>
You split rent with others just like I did for years.

[Buddahaid]

Here is how I see it.

I don't want to pay to much for an hamburger, but I don't like to see an employee to be a working poor, so I can get a cheap hamburger or other things cheap.

Oh well what do I know

Markus

Make it yourself at home.

[Torplexed]

Posting this photo for the benefit of anyone who accidentally mis-read the title of this thread as 'supersize my chick'.

https://criacaodemidias.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/mc-donalds-critica.jpg

[HunterICX]

http://i.imgur.com/WcQ2m07.jpg

[AngusJS]

Until we can create an army of intelligent robots to do the crappy jobs for us, someone will always be stuck with those jobs. I don't see why those workers should be punished for it - it could very well be you or me.

It also doesn't make sense to say they should be paid peanuts because when you worked job X, you were paid peanuts too. You're basically saying that you suffered, so everyone else should suffer too.

It shouldn't be possible to work full time and still fail to make ends meet, thru no fault of your own. So they should ask for $15, and maybe they get $12 or 13 - that's the way bargaining works. And then maybe they'll actually be making a living wage.

Of course, the corporation they work for may very well raise prices to offset loss in profits. Because heaven forbid the CEO be able to buy only one island and not two. I don't know what the answer is. Based on their track record, we can only expect the worst from most US corporations. But there needs to be a minimum wage.

[Oberon]

Until we can create an army of intelligent robots to do the crappy jobs for us, someone will always be stuck with those jobs.

It's happening, slowly but surely it is happening.

You see a rise of automation which began in the Industrial Revolution and has continued to this day, which has also helped to contribute to the shift from manual labour into the service sector.
Take for example a manufacturing plant, seventy years ago there would have been a multitude of people working at the plant, now many of them have been replaced by robotics. The people displaced from these jobs have got to go somewhere.
Even now, robotics, in particular computers, are creeping into the service sector. Self-service check-outs at supermarkets are the vanguard of a force which will eventually automate many of these menial tasks...and then whither those employed in these?
And God help us when we actually crack robotics to the level that we can create androids, workers that need no sleep, think faster, that are hard to injure and who (at first) will not need paying? The human workforce is screwed. What will happen to those at the bottom end of the pay scale then? :dead:

[Platapus]

Here is an interesting and short history if the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 which formed, in part, the Federal Minimum Wage

http://www.dol.gov/dol/aboutdol/history/flsa1938.htm

The arguments against minimum wages (it will kill jobs) has not changed since 1938

[Onkel Neal]

You split rent with others just like I did for years.

Yep, there's nothing wrong with sharing expense like rent. If you have to do it, then do it.

Well put, I think that it's partly this and the increase in house prices which is seeing a large section of todays youth living with their parents for longer periods. For a lot of youth, the flipping burgers is their first place after school, especially if they have done poorly at school, whether their school performance is their fault or the school is a topic for another thread so let's not go there, but you'll find that catering and cleaning is where most of the early school leavers go. On the minimum wage on these jobs, even working full-time, they cannot afford to buy or rent a property, so they hang on and wait to see if a better paid job will come up.
Now, law of averages dictates that with millions of kids doing this across a country, there's going to be a lot of people trying to fit into a small hole and that's going to mean a lot of 'Thank you for applying for this job, we're sorry but...' letters in the mail (if they're courteous enough to even bother with such things), and that's going to mean another week flipping burgers.
Who knows how long such a situation would continue for some? It's a numbers game really, and it does absolutely nothing for your self-esteem, especially when everyone else is looking down their noses at you like you're some kind of lower class scum just because you work at McDonalds.
Little wonder so many turn to drink and drugs. :/\\!!


You know, there's a theme here: if you don't get what you want from the government, then riot or turn to drugs and crime.

I don't look down my nose at a fast food worker, actually I appreciate that they are taking care of my meal, that they are working. I respect them for doing their job. But they have to decide for themselves, do they want to try to make a career out of the lowest paying job they can get, or push to get a better job.

I was a burger flipper in high school. For nearly a year. But I kept moving up, going to a warehouse packager, then working construction building scaffolds in the plant. Since I "retired" from my career job in 2008, I have had no shortage of good jobs, all paying over minimum wage.

When I was the manager of a retail motorcycle shop in Houston, I hired associates for the store. All started out at $1.50 over minimum wage. Yep, I learned first hand there a are a LOT of people who do not want to earn a living, they just want someone to hand them a fat paycheck. I had employees who I hired, and within 2 weeks they stopped showing up. Others would lock into their mobile phones and not do their work. Some couldn't pass the drug test and never made it past orientation. All of it was a huge waste of the store's time and my time. I had one employee of the whole bunch who was worth his salt, he hustled, he was positive, and I respected him greatly (and he was black, for what that's worth). All the rest are probably protesting for a $15 minimum wage now.



It will be a cold day in hell.....

This issue pisses me off to no end.

I was a critical care paramedic for 12 years, spanning various services from primary 911 to tertiary transport to airborne pediatric critical care to urban level 1 trauma ER tech.

I never once held a full time spot that paid more than $12.50 an hour. I would frequently hold multiple jobs just to make ends meet.

I left the job I loved 4 years ago because the money wasn't there.

I went into UNSKILLED LABOR IN A FACTORY making almost twice what I did as a medic. I walked in the door as a temporary employee for 6 months, and even then I made more than a medic, and my job was practically lifting boxes. It has progressed since then, significantly, where money really isn't a major concern for me. And the workload is considerably easier than as a medic. (Scheduled breaks, what the hell are those? I get to go home at my scheduled time? Well that's a novel idea!)

Lots of my friends are active medics, and my girlfriend is in school to do the same. She is going to start off at only a few bucks more than minimum, if that, when she starts working.

These people, myself included in the past, put their lives on the line every day for a bunch of unappreciative a-holes.

If these idiots who think flipping burgers should be a career, they stop and take a look at what others in their pay range are doing for the same amount.

If they don't like the pay, THEN GO GET A JOB THAT PAYS. I don't want to hear a damn thing about how there aren't any jobs that pay that much in their qualifications. Bull****, I'm living proof there is. They just don't want to do the leg work to find a place.

If they don't like the job, then they can go on strike. Oh wait, there's 30 other people willing to work that after school.

Fast food is NOT supposed to be a career. There are paths, like MCd's management path that do make a good career, and any employee can work their way up. But cashiers and cooks are NOT supposed to be Career. It's for part timers to make some extra cash.

So unless they start paying the EMS community $30-$40 an hour if these idiots get $15, I will be mightily inclined to start fire bombing fast food joints. And then I'll move to the Netherlands, they seem like they have their act together a bit more than we do.


Wow, Gargamel, I am shocked, I didn't know EMTs were so poorly paid :huh: I guess I mistakenly assumed that role is critical and there are not a lot of people who have the stomach and nerves for that work (I certainly don't!). That's incredible. You made a wise choice to get out the field and into something that offers reasonable compensation, that's for sure. I guess there are a lot more people willing to be an EMT than I thought. If enough follow your example, surely the pressure for good EMTs will drive the salary up.

[Platapus]

In Omaha, a telemarketer's starting wage is higher than a Paramedic's wage.. after about 6 years of schooling.

Why?

Unfortunately, in a lot of cases income is linked to revenue. People who have jobs that generate revenue are often paid more. This is why a sports figure makes millions for playing a game.. because people are making many more millions selling the game play. A slice of the profit from this revenue is passed down to the employee (sports figure)

People in the civil service industry, while doing critical jobs, are not linked to revenue. They are a pure expense to the county/state/country.

When I was an IEMT, I was going good things for society.... but I was not earning anyone any money (no revenue). So there was no profit to be passed down.. only an expense.

Why was I not paid more as an IEMT? Because there are a lot of taxpayers who don't like paying additional tax. The only "input" to the finance chain is taxes. So every time a politician starts yapping about lowering taxes, realize that there is a result. Good people doing good public service won't be paid as much. Something to think about before entering public service. Something to think about before people badmouth public servants. We are not all bad, money wasting burdens on society.

We are hard working people trying to do a good job hindered by crippling regulations that are often conflicting and inefficient.... and compensated for with lower salaries.... But they still go to their job and still try to do a good job. I for one am thankful for my public servants. They are not perfect, not all of them are good, but most of them are just trying to do their job.

It is not right. It is not fair. But is how things work.

[Wolferz]

And every other truck driver on the forums.
Have you broken down your pay as it pertains to the time you put in on the job? I would wager that you'll discover that you're making much less than minimum wage. :timeout:
I ran team expedited cargo which helped a little because while I was sleeping in the bunk, I was still making money but, I couldn't relax at home with a beer while I was doing it. Eight hours on duty driving and eight hours in the bunk sleeping for twenty-one days at a time gets old really quick.
Living on the road isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination and our government in their infinite wisdom still chose to screw us over during our first year on the road by not allowing any per diem deductions on the yearly tax forms. Don't even get me started on the DOT regulations for drivers.:-? I was grossing $1000.00 a week on average as a junior team driver. I would suspect that a solo driver makes much less.

The burger flippers should thank their lucky stars that they get to go home every night.

[Aktungbby]

And every other truck driver on the forums.
Have you broken down your pay as it pertains to the time you put in on the job? I would wager that you'll discover that you're making much less than minimum wage. :timeout:
I ran team expedited cargo which helped a little because while I was sleeping in the bunk, I was still making money but, I couldn't relax at home with a beer while I was doing it. Eight hours on duty driving and eight hours in the bunk sleeping for twenty-one days at a time gets old really quick.
Living on the road isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination and our government in their infinite wisdom still chose to screw us over during our first year on the road by not allowing any per diem deductions on the yearly tax forms.Don't even get me started on the DOT regulations for drivers.:-? I was grossing $1000.00 a week on average as a junior team driver. I would suspect that a solo driver makes much less.

The burger flippers should thank their lucky stars that they get to go home every night.
^Precisely-3 years beside a 290 Cummins diesel with a mattress-lessons learned! My current employer has tried to make me a salaried employee as I, at 64, am his most reliable response-agent 24/7 based on a 60 hour week (essentially $10.00 per hr.):down: and he'll even pay an allowaance for my car! NO deal! Even unarmed guys make $12.00 an hour. I simply charge .25 cents a minute and .25 cents a mile...from when I leave the house to when I fax the paper work upon returning to the mancave back at home. No raise in ten years, no benefits, no O/T, no paid vacation, no holiday pay. And he's always complaining I'm too expensive! If he 'aggrieves' me-ie utilizes my time in any way-he pays- that's it; 'no gifts'. And I can get seriously deformed:dead: in this so-called profession. My S.S. and the tax deductions just for the 40k+ miles a year and office/garage space overhead off the house payments make up the difference on the combined return...enough to keep me in the saddle. Thank you tax payers-"it takes a village....:-? "

[Oberon]

You know, there's a theme here: if you don't get what you want from the government, then riot or turn to drugs and crime.

The thing is, who in government is actually listening to these people? To the protesters? :hmmm:

I don't look down my nose at a fast food worker, actually I appreciate that they are taking care of my meal, that they are working. I respect them for doing their job. But they have to decide for themselves, do they want to try to make a career out of the lowest paying job they can get, or push to get a better job.

Some do, many don't, most try. Some of them might not have much of a choice.

I was a burger flipper in high school. For nearly a year. But I kept moving up, going to a warehouse packager, then working construction building scaffolds in the plant. Since I "retired" from my career job in 2008, I have had no shortage of good jobs, all paying over minimum wage.

That's fair dos, and that's how it should work. But in some places it doesn't, in some places it's harder to get out of the bottom rung of the ladder.

When I was the manager of a retail motorcycle shop in Houston, I hired associates for the store. All started out at $1.50 over minimum wage. Yep, I learned first hand there a are a LOT of people who do not want to earn a living, they just want someone to hand them a fat paycheck.

I've seen quite a few of the same types come and go where I work.

I had employees who I hired, and within 2 weeks they stopped showing up. Others would lock into their mobile phones and not do their work. Some couldn't pass the drug test and never made it past orientation.

A fair few of them probably live off Mum and Dads money, and they will get a heck of a shock when that runs out.

All of it was a huge waste of the store's time and my time. I had one employee of the whole bunch who was worth his salt, he hustled, he was positive, and I respected him greatly (and he was black, for what that's worth).

Eh, colour doesn't really come into this discussion, but I understand. You make a fair bit of generalisation about the average mentality of a fast-food worker though, and in that way you do kind of look down your nose at the job, seeing it as a menial job for the lower worker. It isn't even intentional, I know that much, but it's something that society has programmed into people, that burger flippers are the lower rung of life and those who stay there probably don't have the wherewithal to progress any further.
Perhaps this is true, I've never worked in a fast-food joint so I couldn't say, but my job isn't exactly at the CEO side of the scale, and is probably only a few rungs away from Burger King, and honestly I couldn't say for certain if there is a job out there which I will do well at. I spent a lot of my youth working towards a job that I cannot take due to my eye-sight and since then I have absolutely no idea what my career goal is, I'm rather envious of those who do know if I'm honest.
Getting back to the matter at hand though, I think the problem is the difference between the minimum wage and the living wage.

When you were a burger flipper, what was your accommodation status? Did your job pay for your rent and living expenses? If not, then why not? Why should a job at the lowest end of the market not pay enough to live with?
Would it encourage people to just have a menial job and stick to it? Not really, because the social stigma of being a 'burger flipper' will mean that they will always want to advance up into jobs with less of a stigma, or perhaps they will be perfectly happy as a burger flipper for the rest of their lives. Surely it should be their choice, not a forced choice because of low pay.
Would it mean that the price of a McDonalds would go up? Perhaps, but it wouldn't go up very far because then the market law would indicate that if the price goes up too far then people will stop buying it, so instead they would absorb any damage through the profit margin, which was about $1.7b last year.
It would save the US government some money too, since the employees would not need to claim public assistance to help with their low income.
I do find it hard to sympathise with a company though which recommends to their employees that:

employees break their food into smaller pieces to feel fuller, seek refunds for unopened holiday purchases, sell possessions online for quick cash, and to "quit complaining" as "stress hormone levels rise by 15 percent after ten minutes of complaining.

That's the sort of suggestion that would come from a 19th century work house. :nope:

[Wolferz]

Oberon, your summation is spot on but, also consider that the government types may see poor and stupid as the desirable state for their constituents.
Kind of like the former USSR's paradigm that encouraged keeping the workforce on the bare edge of existence, just to discourage protests and uprisings from the rank and file.

[MGR1]

You know, there's a theme here: if you don't get what you want from the government, then riot or turn to drugs and crime.

I don't look down my nose at a fast food worker, actually I appreciate that they are taking care of my meal, that they are working. I respect them for doing their job. But they have to decide for themselves, do they want to try to make a career out of the lowest paying job they can get, or push to get a better job.

I was a burger flipper in high school. For nearly a year. But I kept moving up, going to a warehouse packager, then working construction building scaffolds in the plant. Since I "retired" from my career job in 2008, I have had no shortage of good jobs, all paying over minimum wage.

When I was the manager of a retail motorcycle shop in Houston, I hired associates for the store. All started out at $1.50 over minimum wage. Yep, I learned first hand there a are a LOT of people who do not want to earn a living, they just want someone to hand them a fat paycheck. I had employees who I hired, and within 2 weeks they stopped showing up. Others would lock into their mobile phones and not do their work. Some couldn't pass the drug test and never made it past orientation. All of it was a huge waste of the store's time and my time. I had one employee of the whole bunch who was worth his salt, he hustled, he was positive, and I respected him greatly (and he was black, for what that's worth). All the rest are probably protesting for a $15 minimum wage now.

All very good points, Neil. Your last paragraph sums up my own observational experience over the last 15 years working in retail. I think it all boils down mentality, how people think and how they regard themselves. At the end of the day, to earn a reward, you have to work for it. If you aren't prepared to do that, your of no use in any employers book.

There is a caveat, and I think this is something that is specific to the UK, and that is the seriously poor worker/management relationship that bedevils this country.

To take an example, I work for one of the UK's largest supermarkets and have done for over 15 years. In that time I have noticed some distinct changes in the staff/management relationship. To be honest, it hasn't been for the better.

When I started, if you were an experienced worker, managers and team leaders would actually pay attention to any advice or observations you wished to share. You could even become what was called a "Role Specialist", receiving more advanced training so you could develop in your role. Quite often that led to the lower tiers of management. In other words you were a precious source of knowledge and talent.

Now, things have completely changed. Managers and team leaders will not listen to any advice that may be proffered, expecting you to "do as I say" with no questions asked or allowed. You no longer receive any advanced training only whats known as foundation, with any intermediate training depending on your role. Instead of being a person, you are literally just a set of hours on a schedule at best, at worst, a vacancy waiting to happen. This has happened across the retail sector, so it's not something that's specific to my employers.

I have considered having a go at retraining, and do something completely different, but I don't believe I would get a job as I'm now in my mid thirties and effectively considered as "too old" by the vast majority of employers. Indeed, I've given up trying to advance up the ladder where I am as they only seem to be interested in promoting people in their early twenties. Most of whom don't stay very long before leaving for a better job!

All in all, I think there is a deep malaise in British society which nobody seems to know how to fix. Indeed, even trying to identify the root cause appears to be beyond those in power.

Mike.

[Gargamel]

Wow, Gargamel, I am shocked, I didn't know EMTs were so poorly paid :huh: I guess I mistakenly assumed that role is critical and there are not a lot of people who have the stomach and nerves for that work (I certainly don't!). That's incredible. You made a wise choice to get out the field and into something that offers reasonable compensation, that's for sure. I guess there are a lot more people willing to be an EMT than I thought. If enough follow your example, surely the pressure for good EMTs will drive the salary up.

Actually, the opposite is true. The really good ones stay in the field far longer than we should. We do that job because we love it, not for the money. It's a calling, a life, a profession. The crappy ones quickly learn they aren't cut out for that line of work and get out early. Plus, it's a popular career path (at first), so supply greatly outweighs demand for medics, which drives down salary.

[Gargamel]

In Omaha, a telemarketer's starting wage is higher than a Paramedic's wage.. after about 6 years of schooling.

Unless Omaha requires a graduate degree for medics, you got something amiss there. Medics usually require 2 years of training, but if you REALLY hustle, it can be done in one. 100-200 hour course for EMT, and then 800 for paramedic.



And while I worked for the 911 service, you're right, I was not a revenue provider. But every spot I worked in, was a revenue generating (ie billable) service for the parent company.

[Aktungbby]

specific to my employers.

All in all, I think there is a deep malaise in British society which nobody seems to know how to fix. Indeed, even trying to identify the root cause appears to be beyond those in power.

Mike.It's damn Struldbrugs I tell you!:/\\!!https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/swift/jonathan/s97g/plates/gulliverstravels00swif_0247.jpg (https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/swift/jonathan/s97g/plates/gulliverstravels00swif_0247.jpg)

[mapuc]

This discussion about wages have also been a hot potato in Denmark and Sweden, mostly in Denmark.

There are parties who say people should take any job there is, even if the wages is very very low-the person would become a working poor.

I have had discussion with friends about this and this is what I use to say to them

(I use dollars and American here)

let say a product cost 5 $ in your local store. Let say the company that make this product has mostly American in this company. One day the owner of this company kick out most of his American employees and hire cheap workers instead.

Now my question is, will this product who cost 5 $ be cheaper, now that this company, has workers that work for, let say 1/5 of the American wages ?

If you believe so then you are living in a utopia- The only person or persons who will benefit from this is the owner of the company and/or the shareholders

There are greedy people and there are greedy people.

I'm sorry but to think a product or service would be cheaper. that is dreaming.

Markus

[AngusJS]

You know, there's a theme here: if you don't get what you want from the government, then riot or turn to drugs and crime.Who is rioting in this instance? Who is asking the government for anything? :huh:

[em2nought]

I can predict what's going to happen just from observing KFC in Asia vs. KFC in the USA. KFC is ready to walk away from the USA, in Asia they care about their stores, and the food they serve. They plan to be there for awhile with a plentiful labor supply of workers willing to work. KFC could close every USA store tomorrow for all they care about this market now. Maybe the plumbing is bad, and they will. :D

[Torplexed]

I can predict what's going to happen just from observing KFC in Asia vs. KFC in the USA. KFC is ready to walk away from the USA, in Asia they care about their stores, and the food they serve. They plan to be there for awhile with a plentiful labor supply of workers willing to work. KFC could close every USA store tomorrow for all they care about this market now. Maybe the plumbing is bad, and they will. :D

Maybe they could change their name to Kwantungy Fried Chicken.

[Platapus]

Unless Omaha requires a graduate degree for medics, you got something amiss there. Medics usually require 2 years of training, but if you REALLY hustle, it can be done in one. 100-200 hour course for EMT, and then 800 for paramedic.



I got my IEMT at Creighton University which was, and probably still is, one of the more respected EMT training programs. When i was looking at getting my P, the program (in the 1990's) was a total of five years of class and field evaluations.

That's the only datapoint I know. I don't know how fast it can be done at other schools... and really don't want to think about people getting their I or P the fast way. Basic EMT, sure, but once you get in to ALS quick education is not what I am looking for... :nope:

[Onkel Neal]

....
Perhaps this is true, I've never worked in a fast-food joint so I couldn't say, but my job isn't exactly at the CEO side of the scale, and is probably only a few rungs away from Burger King, and honestly I couldn't say for certain if there is a job out there which I will do well at. I spent a lot of my youth working towards a job that I cannot take due to my eye-sight and since then I have absolutely no idea what my career goal is, I'm rather envious of those who do know if I'm honest.
Getting back to the matter at hand though, I think the problem is the difference between the minimum wage and the living wage.

When you were a burger flipper, what was your accommodation status? Did your job pay for your rent and living expenses? If not, then why not? Why should a job at the lowest end of the market not pay enough to live with?
Would it encourage people to just have a menial job and stick to it? Not really, because the social stigma of being a 'burger flipper' will mean that they will always want to advance up into jobs with less of a stigma, or perhaps they will be perfectly happy as a burger flipper for the rest of their lives. Surely it should be their choice, not a forced choice because of low pay.
Would it mean that the price of a McDonalds would go up? Perhaps, but it wouldn't go up very far because then the market law would indicate that if the price goes up too far then people will stop buying it, so instead they would absorb any damage through the profit margin, which was about $1.7b last year.
It would save the US government some money too, since the employees would not need to claim public assistance to help with their low income.
I do find it hard to sympathise with a company though which recommends to their employees that:



I can sympathise with you, when I was out of high school, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do as a career goal either. And here I am 340 years later and I still don't know :wah:

I made one good decision at 19, I wasn't committed to college, so I dropped out and campaigned until I got an operator job with a chemical plant. I knew if nothing else, I would have good pay, good insurance, and a real pension someday. Sure, the work was brutal, working nights and weekends around chemicals and equipment, but I managed.

When I was working for Jack in the Box, I was a high school student. Living with the folks. Again, let me stress, I do not believe a person should rely on that kind of job to support themselves, or to raise a family.

Yeah, if I was running a business, I would try to pay my employees the best wage I could, to get the best pick of the litter. But still, from my experience hiring people for a $9 an hour starting pay retail job, the pickings are slim. So many have records, or horrible credit and bad work history.




All very good points, Neil. Your last paragraph sums up my own observational experience over the last 15 years working in retail. I think it all boils down mentality, how people think and how they regard themselves. At the end of the day, to earn a reward, you have to work for it. If you aren't prepared to do that, your of no use in any employers book.

There is a caveat, and I think this is something that is specific to the UK, and that is the seriously poor worker/management relationship that bedevils this country.

To take an example, I work for one of the UK's largest supermarkets and have done for over 15 years. In that time I have noticed some distinct changes in the staff/management relationship. To be honest, it hasn't been for the better.

When I started, if you were an experienced worker, managers and team leaders would actually pay attention to any advice or observations you wished to share. You could even become what was called a "Role Specialist", receiving more advanced training so you could develop in your role. Quite often that led to the lower tiers of management. In other words you were a precious source of knowledge and talent.

Now, things have completely changed. Managers and team leaders will not listen to any advice that may be proffered, expecting you to "do as I say" with no questions asked or allowed. You no longer receive any advanced training only whats known as foundation, with any intermediate training depending on your role. Instead of being a person, you are literally just a set of hours on a schedule at best, at worst, a vacancy waiting to happen. This has happened across the retail sector, so it's not something that's specific to my employers.

I have considered having a go at retraining, and do something completely different, but I don't believe I would get a job as I'm now in my mid thirties and effectively considered as "too old" by the vast majority of employers. Indeed, I've given up trying to advance up the ladder where I am as they only seem to be interested in promoting people in their early twenties. Most of whom don't stay very long before leaving for a better job!

All in all, I think there is a deep malaise in British society which nobody seems to know how to fix. Indeed, even trying to identify the root cause appears to be beyond those in power.

Mike.


Hey Mike, I think you are right, there's a problem here too. 46 million people on food stamps. Can you imagine?

Like Oberon said, maybe the businesses would still succeed if they pared away some of their profits and "re-invested" them into their employees in the form of a more livable wage. But still, if a grown man can make $15 an hour handing me a bag of fries or mopping a floor, I sure as bleep expect to make more than him as a truck driver, or a lot more as a teacher or plant operator. It's all relative, there's bound to be some jobs that are on the bottom rung.

And every other truck driver on the forums.
Have you broken down your pay as it pertains to the time you put in on the job? I would wager that you'll discover that you're making much less than minimum wage. :timeout:
I ran team expedited cargo which helped a little because while I was sleeping in the bunk, I was still making money but, I couldn't relax at home with a beer while I was doing it. Eight hours on duty driving and eight hours in the bunk sleeping for twenty-one days at a time gets old really quick.
Living on the road isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination and our government in their infinite wisdom still chose to screw us over during our first year on the road by not allowing any per diem deductions on the yearly tax forms. Don't even get me started on the DOT regulations for drivers.:-? I was grossing $1000.00 a week on average as a junior team driver. I would suspect that a solo driver makes much less.

The burger flippers should thank their lucky stars that they get to go home every night.


Hey Wolferz, at least they let me sleep in the truck rent free! :D

Now as I figure my pay, I do not count hours I am not driving or working. That's part of job, like working offshore on a rig, or if I have a long commute like when I was a hotel manager. So, yeah, it comes out to about $23 an hour, I can live with that.

[em2nought]

Hey Wolferz, at least they let me sleep in the truck rent free! :D


Oh, next time my buddy is complaining I'm going to tell him we let him sleep in the truck rent free. :har: LOL

[Gargamel]

I got my IEMT at Creighton University which was, and probably still is, one of the more respected EMT training programs. When i was looking at getting my P, the program (in the 1990's) was a total of five years of class and field evaluations.

That's the only datapoint I know. I don't know how fast it can be done at other schools... and really don't want to think about people getting their I or P the fast way. Basic EMT, sure, but once you get in to ALS quick education is not what I am looking for... :nope:

This is US?

the NREMT (which is national) is (usually) limited to an 800 hour program, which is usually 2 semesters. This limit is applied by the firefighters Union and management. I've been in almost every aspect of EMS, and was working on getting my instructor when I walked away, I've never even heard of a program being longer than 2 years. I've seen 4 year Management degrees with a focus on EMS, but nothing longer for field work.

ALS can be easily taught within a two day program (I was an instructor for both BLS and ALS). It's rote memorization. The American Heart Association revises their research every 4-5 years and makes changes to the protocols that are taught. That's why there was a "no breathing" CPR version for a few years. The ALS program is insanely easy to learn, it's just rhythm recognition and algorithm following. If A, then do B. Both Prehospital (EMS) and ER ALS protocols are pretty much identical for the first 60 minutes or so. There is practically nothing an ER doc can do that a paramedic truck cannot. That is why we are trained to stay in the field and work the code rather than doing a "grab and go". It's only when you start looking into deep root causes or cryogenic resuscitation (which field units are getting into) can an ER go beyond a field unit.

I looked up their programs at Creighton. They do offer Associates, Bachelors, and Masters of science in EMS. But they also offer a standalone Paramedic program that is less than one year. It seems to be an amazing program at that, but that cost is insane (almost 10k!). The biggest problem with advanced EMS degrees is the return on investment. In my experience, the advanced degrees don't hold a huge advantage in the selection process for management positions. It's usually experience and maturity that get the promotions. These programs would most benefit somebody who already has copious field experience and is looking to advance their career farther. In the EMS field an EMS specific Bachelors degree (with field experience) is the equivalent of an advanced graduate degree.

But thanks for the headsup, if I ever do go back, I'll have to take another look at their programs......

[Oberon]

I can sympathise with you, when I was out of high school, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do as a career goal either. And here I am 340 years later and I still don't know :wah:

I made one good decision at 19, I wasn't committed to college, so I dropped out and campaigned until I got an operator job with a chemical plant. I knew if nothing else, I would have good pay, good insurance, and a real pension someday. Sure, the work was brutal, working nights and weekends around chemicals and equipment, but I managed.

When I was working for Jack in the Box, I was a high school student. Living with the folks. Again, let me stress, I do not believe a person should rely on that kind of job to support themselves, or to raise a family.

Yeah, if I was running a business, I would try to pay my employees the best wage I could, to get the best pick of the litter. But still, from my experience hiring people for a $9 an hour starting pay retail job, the pickings are slim. So many have records, or horrible credit and bad work history.


Once upon a time there used to be certain jobs that were known as 'jobs for life', the railways in the UK used to be one. You'd get into the role at school age, working as a cleaner and then work your way up to fire-starter/engine preparer, fireman, passed fireman, and onwards to driver, or you'd go into the engineering side of things. Either which way, you would go in at a young age and stay in until retirement or ill health took you out (and a lot of the time, if ill health took you off the main-line work, they'd put you on shunting work or something less stressful).
From what you have said the chemical industry sounds a little bit like that, once you're in there's good options for advancement and staying in, but it seems a lot like the old 'jobs for life' have dried up in this era and that job certainty is not as solid as it used to be. Which is a shame and does not do a lot for morale.
You do certainly have a point about sorting the wheat from the chaff though in regards to employing people, although it's always hard to tell who will stick it and who will not. Some people can really surprise you, and others can also surprise you in a negative fashion. I've seen quite a few people come into the hospitality trade and have dramatically underestimated the time commitment it involves, and they've bounced out pretty quickly, usually within the three month probation period.

Certainly though, payscales should be scaled accordingly and with the lowest scale meeting the requirements of a living wage, in my opinion at least, and I think that many of the big businesses could certainly afford such a thing. The biggest question mark though would be smaller businesses, because they would have to raise prices in order to cover overheads and that in turn would drive people to the bigger businesses who would be able to absorb the wage rise without raising prices.
The economic system, and capitalism, may be in some areas superior to many others, but boy is it swings and roundabouts trying to balance the thing. :dead:

[Wolferz]

Many people achieve success and many only get as far as succ.

[Oberon]

Many people achieve success and many only get as far as succ.

http://bmsblogs.k12albemarle.org/jmjh8/wp-content/uploads/sites/421/2015/03/Booker-T.-Washington-Quotes-1.jpg

[MGR1]

Hey Mike, I think you are right, there's a problem here too. 46 million people on food stamps. Can you imagine?

Like Oberon said, maybe the businesses would still succeed if they pared away some of their profits and "re-invested" them into their employees in the form of a more livable wage. But still, if a grown man can make $15 an hour handing me a bag of fries or mopping a floor, I sure as bleep expect to make more than him as a truck driver, or a lot more as a teacher or plant operator. It's all relative, there's bound to be some jobs that are on the bottom rung.

Indeed. Simple fact is that people do different jobs requiring different levels of skill and knowledge and what they're paid reflects that. Want to earn more? Up skill.

Mike.

[mako88sb]

Here in Alberta, the PC's who had been in power for over 40 years got the boot and were replaced by the NDP. One of their election promises was to up the minimum wage to $15 by 2018. They seem determined to hold to that promise despite the dire warnings that many small businesses will go under since there's only so much that can be passed on to the consumer. Our province is already on the verge of a recession with the low price of oil. Could get interesting the next few years.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2015/06/30/alberta-ndps-minimum-wage-hike-no-small-change-from-what-were-used-to-hearing-out-of-a--provincial-government

[HW3]

It is happening in Oregon too....

From the East Oregonian
"Supporters of an Oregon ballot measure that would increase the state's minimum wage to $15 per hour by 2019 have gathered enough petition signatures to qualify for a ballot title, the first step in getting the measure on next year's general election ballot.

SALEM — Disappointed with legislative inaction, labor and other advocates took the first step Tuesday toward a 2016 ballot measure proposing a $15 statewide minimum wage by 2019.

Oregon’s current statewide minimum is $9.25 per hour, second only to Washington’s $9.47 among the states. But several cities — Seattle, San Francisco and Los Angeles — are gradually raising their minimums to $15.

Advocates filed preliminary paperwork for the measure several weeks ago, but on Tuesday, they filed with state elections officials the 2,000 signatures that will trigger a ballot title from the attorney general. The title is an official summary required before advocates can collect the 88,184 signatures to qualify the measure for the November 2016 ballot.

Those petition signatures are due in about a year.

If voters approve it, Oregon’s minimum wage would go to $11.50 in 2017, $13.25 in 2018 and $15 in 2019. Afterward, annual increases would be linked to the Consumer Price Index, as has been the practice since voters approved it in 2002."

[Highbury]

Our province is already on the verge of a recession with the low price of oil.

It makes no sense to me that Alberta is having trouble because of low oil prices and in BC premium petrol is over $1.50L (That is $6 per gallon for those of you in the US!) Something not right there.. :hmm2:

[mako88sb]

It makes no sense to me that Alberta is having trouble because of low oil prices and in BC premium petrol is over $1.50L (That is $6 per gallon for those of you in the US!) Something not right there.. :hmm2:

I don't pretend to know how the economics of the oil industry work. I've worked in the natural gas industry for the last 30 years and it pretty well follows the ups and downs of oil prices. There has been a lot of talk about building more refineries here instead of shipping our crude abroad. This article might encourage them to do so:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-31/exxon-profit-rises-as-refining-boosted-by-lower-crude

For the time being, there is a definite slowdown going on. Our company has weathered it better then most and I was starting to think the worst was behind us. However, after the NDP got in, I think the big oil companies are now in a holding pattern until they find out just how much impact the new government is going to have to their bottom line.

[Onkel Neal]

Now, here's one area where the Obama administration has it right.

Most people don't know that many salaried workers, not just employees paid by the hour, are entitled to overtime pay when they work more than 40 hours in a week. The rules are complicated if you earn more than $23,660 a year, but below that threshold, it's simple: You're entitled to time-and-a-half pay for every hour past 40 in a week.

The new rule should end the charade of calling employees managers or administrators and then making them work 60 to 70 hours a week, doing the work of the people they supervise for no extra pay. Paying a modest salary doesn't justify overworking employees, denying them time with their families and endangering their health. A woman I know who was paid $35,000 as a manager worked 90 hours a week for four weeks at a stretch, without getting a dime of extra pay for those extra 50 hours of work. That shouldn't be legal, and the new rule would prohibit it.





http://www.usnews.com/opinion/economic-intelligence/2015/07/02/why-workers-deserve-new-overtime-rules?google_editors_picks=true


I remember when I was the Manager on Duty at the Crowne Plaza. I would work 60-70 hours a week, and there was no additional compensation for all the hours over 40. Seriously, that's messed up. Companies set up "managers" for additional time on the job as part of the job. I remember being told from day 1, "managers here are expected to put in at least 50 hours a week". And then I would spend half my time subbing for a front desk clerk or restaurant employee.

Pay people for their time, all their time.

[Penguin]

the pickings are slim. So many have records, or horrible credit and bad work history.

:hmmm: I'm thinking if a bad credit history would prevent me from hiring someone, can't think of too many reasons. I mean I certainly wouldn't give the person any loan or advanced pay, but it's their choice how they handle their personal finances. Maybe a risk would be that they need some sick days, because they got roughed up by some loan sharks. :)



From what you have said the chemical industry sounds a little bit like that, once you're in there's good options for advancement and staying in, but it seems a lot like the old 'jobs for life' have dried up in this era and that job certainty is not as solid as it used to be. Which is a shame and does not do a lot for morale.

I knew a security guy from work who did a lot of studies for a degree in chemistry during night shifts. He got hired on the spot when he finished, despite having no previous experience and being an old geezer in his late 30s.
I find this interesting, as in Germany the 'job for life' mentality is still common among employers and our policy makers. Many of the decision makers are from economic times where working in the same industry or company your whole life was the normal. I think besides the creative field,starting a different career, especially at 'old age', is still regarded as weird.

[mapuc]

If you should be so lucky to have a well paid job and a very good health then you are lucky. I hope it will be so the rest of your life.

If you haven't been so lucky and are stocked in a low paid job and perhaps your health ain't so good, you are unlucky in life. I hope the life will change to something better.

I saw a comment somewhere.

I want a 5 $ raise that's all and then it was something about billions of dollars to the shareholders and it would cost McDonalds...forgot the numbers.

Markus

[vienna]

I can sympathise with you, when I was out of high school, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do as a career goal either. And here I am 340 years later and I still don't know :wah:

340 years? No wonder: I personally know how hard it is for someone over sixty to find a good career; it must be very, very difficult over 340 years of age...

(You don't look a day over 335...)...


<O>

[AVGWarhawk]

Now, here's one area where the Obama administration has it right.



http://www.usnews.com/opinion/economic-intelligence/2015/07/02/why-workers-deserve-new-overtime-rules?google_editors_picks=true


I remember when I was the Manager on Duty at the Crowne Plaza. I would work 60-70 hours a week, and there was no additional compensation for all the hours over 40. Seriously, that's messed up. Companies set up "managers" for additional time on the job as part of the job. I remember being told from day 1, "managers here are expected to put in at least 50 hours a week". And then I would spend half my time subbing for a front desk clerk or restaurant employee.

Pay people for their time, all their time.

When FEMA goes active I work around the clock. It is not unusual to start on a Sunday morning and get perhaps 4 hours of sleep through a Wednesday. I'm salary. The additional accolades I receive are...well...never. However, the brow beatings go on for days.

As far as McDonald, start with filling the orders correctly. Stop screwing people at the drive through. Stop giving me half drunk milk with the cap screwed on. Keep the bathrooms spotless as well as the parking lot, main dining room, and soad/condiment counter then we'll talk $15.00 per hour. Good luck.

[em2nought]

As far as McDonald, start with filling the orders correctly. Stop screwing people at the drive through. Stop giving me half drunk milk with the cap screwed on. Keep the bathrooms spotless as well as the parking lot, main dining room, and soda/condiment counter then we'll talk $15.00 per hour. Good luck.

As it is, I'll only buy McDonald's when I've got a coupon(or Mcdoubles full price). No way I'm paying "more" for their quality of food.

[AVGWarhawk]

As it is, I'll only buy McDonald's when I've got a coupon(or Mcdoubles full price). No way I'm paying "more" for their quality of food.

Truth be told, for a few bucks more, one can get a better quality meal elsewhere. I eat at McDonald's rarely. And it is not so much the food that turns me away. It is the lack of quality in service and cleanliness of the establishment.

[Schroeder]

Truth be told, for a few bucks more, one can get a better quality meal elsewhere. I eat at McDonald's rarely. And it is not so much the food that turns me away. It is the lack of quality in service and cleanliness of the establishment.
Strange, here in Germany they check on the cleanliness and customer service quite often. My brother in law worked at a McDonald's when he studied and they had to keep their restaurant clean and be quick with the service as McDonald's would send test customers every couple of weeks.
I thought they would do that in the states too.

[Jimbuna]

Strange, here in Germany they check on the cleanliness and customer service quite often. My brother in law worked at a McDonald's when he studied and they had to keep their restaurant clean and be quick with the service as McDonald's would send test customers every couple of weeks.
I thought they would do that in the states too.

Certainly happens in the UK and is called 'Mystery Shopper'.

[AVGWarhawk]

Strange, here in Germany they check on the cleanliness and customer service quite often. My brother in law worked at a McDonald's when he studied and they had to keep their restaurant clean and be quick with the service as McDonald's would send test customers every couple of weeks.
I thought they would do that in the states too.

No sir. By and large the bathrooms at McDonald's, from my experiences, are a study in cesspools and e-coli. Service is fair-to-middling. Often the order is incorrect. Specifically if you are using the drive through. Once my father ordered a milk. Upon looking to opening the plastic bottle of milk he found it was already opened and half gone. Once I ordered a Big Mac. There are three slices of roll in a Big Mac. Top, bottom and middle roll. Some how all of the bread was on the bottom and the two patties/special sauce sitting on top. This individual that put this Big Mac together in a box and served it up wants $15.00/hour?

As far as inspections, this is done by the Dept of Health. They may visit once a year. As far as accounting for customer service...there is none that I'm aware of.

[August]

Strange, here in Germany they check on the cleanliness and customer service quite often. My brother in law worked at a McDonald's when he studied and they had to keep their restaurant clean and be quick with the service as McDonald's would send test customers every couple of weeks.
I thought they would do that in the states too.

No sir. By and large the bathrooms at McDonald's, from my experiences, are a study in cesspools and e-coli. Service is fair-to-middling. Often the order is incorrect. Specifically if you are using the drive through. Once my father ordered a milk. Upon looking to opening the plastic bottle of milk he found it was already opened and half gone. Once I ordered a Big Mac. There are three slices of roll in a Big Mac. Top, bottom and middle roll. Some how all of the bread was on the bottom and the two patties/special sauce sitting on top. This individual that put this Big Mac together in a box and served it up wants $15.00/hour?

As far as inspections, this is done by the Dept of Health. They may visit once a year. As far as accounting for customer service...there is none that I'm aware of.

The difference in the two experiences may be due to the diligence of the franchise owner. Sounds like Schroeder's BiL's McD has an owner that cares about his business whereas Tarbox's McD owner does not.

[Armistead]

I rarely eat fast food, we have numerous mom/'pop diners still where u can get a real burger, bigger, pure beef, fresh veggies on it for a buck more. Last McD burger I got, I opened it up and threw it in the garbage. Look like it had been made from dumpster scraps.

I do love Biscuitville!

[AVGWarhawk]

The difference in the two experiences may be due to the diligence of the franchise owner. Sounds like Schroeder's BiL's McD has an owner that cares about his business whereas Tarbox's McD owner does not.


Very true. Not all are franchises though. But that is besides the point. McDonald's has an image. Currently my image of McDonald's is the city dump. One would think that McDonald's corp headquarters would have a system in place that would assure the franchises are clean, courteous and efficient. I have been a few that are very good. I have been in many more that are sub-par acceptable.

[AVGWarhawk]

I rarely eat fast food, we have numerous mom/'pop diners still where u can get a real burger, bigger, pure beef, fresh veggies on it for a buck more. Last McD burger I got, I opened it up and threw it in the garbage. Look like it had been made from dumpster scraps.

I do love Biscuitville!

Yes sir, a few bucks more and one can eat in a mom/pops diner type place. This is where I go. McDonald's is just a rush meal to fill the hole because I have no time to sit and enjoy a better meal.

[Schroeder]

Very true. Not all are franchises though. But that is besides the point. McDonald's has an image. Currently my image of McDonald's is the city dump. One would think that McDonald's corp headquarters would have a system in place that would assure the franchises are clean, courteous and efficient. I have been a few that are very good. I have been in many more that are sub-par acceptable.
What surprises me is that McDonald's has exactly that in Germany. Why they don't have it in the States is beyond me.

[August]

Very true. Not all are franchises though. But that is besides the point. McDonald's has an image. Currently my image of McDonald's is the city dump. One would think that McDonald's corp headquarters would have a system in place that would assure the franchises are clean, courteous and efficient. I have been a few that are very good. I have been in many more that are sub-par acceptable.

Must be a local thing because all the McD's i've been in here in the northeast have been as clean or cleaner as any other fast food joint.

[Betonov]

Slovene McD are also spotless.
It's the food per price ratio that turns me away. For the price of a big mack menu I can get a kebab triple the size with fresh vegetables and coke.

[Onkel Neal]

Man, you think this guy is a businessman? He sure didn't see this coming. Whatta maroon. :O:

http://www.vox.com/2015/8/1/9084071/ceo-raise-angry

This CEO gave his lowest-paid employees huge raises and it made some people angry

Three months ago, a Seattle businessman had an epiphany. Dan Price was the CEO and co-owner of a Gravity Payments, and he concluded that everyone in the company — including him — would be happier if he took a big pay cut and used the money to give his lowest-paid employees big raises. So he instituted a new policy where within three years, every employee in the company would make at least $70,000 per year. For some employees, that meant tens of thousands of dollars in raises.

You might think this was a win-win situation for everyone. A bunch of employees got raises. Price thought he'd get more satisfaction from helping his employees than from making more money himself. No one else's salary went down.

But as the New York Times reports, the plan made a lot of people upset. Most upset were employees who were already making salaries near the new $70,000 minimum. They felt that giving formerly much lower-paid employees the same salary as them deprived them of their status as highly-paid employees. Two employees even quit in protest after the raises were announced.

He's about to hit the street corner himself
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/seattle-ceo-who-set-firm-minimum-wage-to-70g-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/

Dan Price, 31, tells the New York Times that things have gotten so bad he’s been forced to rent out his house.

Only three months ago Price was generating headlines—and accusations of being a socialist -- when he announced the new salary minimum for all 120 employees at his Gravity Payments credit card processing firm. Price said he was doing it, and slashing his $1 million pay package to pay for it, to address the wealth gap.

“I’m working as hard as I ever worked to make it work,” he told the Times in a video that shows him sitting on a plastic bucket in the garage of his house. “I’m renting out my house right now to try and make ends meet myself.”

The newest in office furniture :)
http://lumberjocks.com/assets/pictures/projects/228847-438x.jpg

[Betonov]

He went too hard too fast.

A 13th pay for every employee or bonuses when the company makes profit would be better and would raise the productivity even more. Yes, higher wages raise productivity, who knew. Rewards are even better though.

The low level would get their raises and the middle level would get their raises as well. No jealousy.
I don't care about the higher level, they're already ovepaid and overfed

[Oberon]

No jealousy.


I think you're being a bit optimistic about society in the US there. :03:

[Aktungbby]

Neal Stevens:
Whatta maroon
http://www.artcyclopedia.com/images/Pyle.jpgWhatta maroon indeed!:timeout:

[Platapus]

Yes, higher wages raise productivity

Frederick Herzberg might disagree with this. Hygiene vs motivator

[Oberon]

To be fair, a quick overview of Herzberg on wiki gives me:

The idea is that hygiene factors will not motivate, but if they are not there, they can lower motivation. These factors could be anything from clean toilets and comfortable chairs, to a reasonable level of pay and job security.I think the last two is all that anyone can ask for really, a reasonable level of pay and job security. The quibbling factor comes down to what is a reasonable level of pay, which in my opinion would depend upon the cost of living in any particular area. The higher the cost of living, the higher the wage should be, so that people aren't forced to work two or three jobs in order to make ends meet. As an employer, you want your staff to give you their 100%, and if that person is torn between three jobs, you'll be lucky to get 33.3r% out of them. So it's in the employers best interest to match a living wage, and it's in societies best interests too, but anything that involves pushing prices up (even if wages go up too, to match) makes people shy away. :dead:


EDIT: Of course, I realise now having typed all that out, you probably mean about the likelihood of a wage rise raising productivity. In which case I think that in the long term, Herzberg has a fair point, but I'd wager that there would be a short term boost as morale briefly improves, but it takes more than wages to fix morale problems in many jobs.

EDIT EDIT: Just reading briefly through the Two-factor theory, can't say I disagree with it, I think that wages cross the line from Hygiene to Motivation in a couple of instances, such as for something like performance related pay or bonuses, but mostly it is through recognition and achievement that satisfaction is primarily earned.

[Betonov]

It's a more factor, not two factor.

Wages: the most important, a lot of the other factors a worker can ignore if his/hers wage is more than fair.

Wage disparity: if I make €800, my foreman makes €1200 and the guy one step above him makes €4500, something is not right. And don't give me that more work more resposibility manure, they don't work. They talk, they yell, when work goes good they take the credit and bonuses, when something goes wrong they blame the only one that actually did work. Greedy pigs don't work, not-greedy entrepenurs don't suck the company for money they don't deserve.

Work environment: good coworkers, nice fluid work, unresentful bosses that take critisism, nice fluid work. Nice fluid work means high productivity, means a succeseful company. When you throw in bad wages, co-workers become a-holes since they can't vent up. When bosses are overpaid they also get a sense of being more important than they are and they stop listening to critisism.

Hygiene: when I was that I actually thought it's a joke, but it's not. A clean workplace is a happy workplace. I came to work in a good mood because I knew my company had hotel level clean toilets and when lunch called that it wants to get out, I knew I'd be on a ceramic throne, not a bucket.

Rewards: they're there to boost workers. maybe o ne feels like they're underpaid, but they'd still pull some overtime if they knew that a reward would be paid. And not a promise of a reward like we had and never got, we're not morons.

Social security: wow, look at the Lenin here, but workers work better if they don't worry how they'll get by if something happens. And the fear of being fired is not motivation, it's mobing. And if you think mobing is good, then let me know so I can get infracted.

Ability to progress: there are some content with their lot in life. Why not, their choice. Some of us do want to get promoted. And we get tired of being overlooked due to asskissers and boss relatives and we don't feel that working hard is something we should even do. There's no point.

A few more can be added. And those are from my personal experience. I actually worked once. Like laboured. So i know what I'm talking about.

And if anyone wants to call me socialist, go ahead. I actually am. My head is not so far up my arse that I actually gave socialism a thought and know that if done right it works well (khm Sweden, Norway, Switzerland)

[Platapus]

Wage disparity: if I make €800, my foreman makes €1200 and the guy one step above him makes €4500, something is not right. And don't give me that more work more resposibility manure, they don't work.

I am going to take a wild guess that you have never been a manager. No one pays managers more because they like them. They pay managers more because it is hard work (most likely different work) and the job sucks, the responsibilities crushing and you have to deal with workers who think that managers don't work. :)

I have been on both sides of the fence. Unless you are self-actualizing, the "perks" of being a manager don't even come close to making up for the stress.

[Stealhead]

I am going to take a wild guess that you have never been a manager. No one pays managers more because they like them. They pay managers more because it is hard work (most likely different work) and the job sucks, the responsibilities crushing and you have to deal with workers who think that managers don't work. :)

I have been on both sides of the fence. Unless you are self-actualizing, the "perks" of being a manager don't even come close to making up for the stress.
I remember in the Air Force Staff Sargent Schneider a lot of airman (the lazy ones) didn't like him because he was "strict" and he was iin some ways but he was fair.

His most genius leadership method was the time he volunteered to lead the group that was to remodel the squadron day room. Of course he knew that nearly every other volunteer had expected to get out of regular duties while this project was undertaken. Wrong he announced the first day that all work would be performed after hours and on weekends because remodeling a day room has no bearing on national defense. It was great. Now SSGT S did invite everyone over to a sweet party when the project was done.:rock:

I knew otherwise because SSGT S was my direct supervisor and his troops did what ever he did and he would do anything he told you to do faster and better then you could but he did respect so you if you where worth your salt wanted to impress him.

When I made SSGT I did things the same way and my troops really liked me. I had an airman under another SSGT once tell me that he wished that all the NCOs where like me.

[August]

I am going to take a wild guess that you have never been a manager. No one pays managers more because they like them. They pay managers more because it is hard work (most likely different work) and the job sucks, the responsibilities crushing and you have to deal with workers who think that managers don't work. :)

I have been on both sides of the fence. Unless you are self-actualizing, the "perks" of being a manager don't even come close to making up for the stress.

I think there is a vast difference between the type of manager that you're talking about and the one that he's talking about. Both do exist.

[Jeff-Groves]

Well I had a nice time at the last McDonalds I went to.
:nope:
4 different people put in an order when there were no other orders. Not even a car in the drive thru.
After our orders were taken? EVERY worker there started chatting and sipping drinks. We stood there for nearly 5 minutes with nothing being done.

A Guy walks in and asks me if I'm in line. I went off!
"No. I'm waiting to see WTF happens here if anything. You'd be better off to go to Wendy's across the street!"

Things got real interesting from there. I was asked.....
"Sir? Are you waiting for something?"
"Ya. Waiting to see who gets off their arse and gets me my order!"
"What did you order Sir?"
"Look at your pretty screen back there and figure it out! That's part of your job!"

(Back ground laffter and cheers from only other 3 people in place)

"You had the Double Quarter meal with Milk Shake? I'll make the Milk Shake now."

"And how fast does it melt before I get the rest of my order?"

"We're doing the best we can Sir."

"You need a less demanding job. Like sweeping streets then."

All the time I'm watching to make sure the Guy doing my sandwich don't spit on it or something.

More money for workers like that???????
They are over paid as is as far as I see it all over the USA!

[Stealhead]

I notice in my experience Chick-fil-A and Taco Bell tend to have the best service generally while McDonald's and Burger King are usually average at best. Chick-fil-A they actually push in the drink buttons on the lids nobody else dose even if its a single drink.

[Stealhead]

I think there is a vast difference between the type of manager that you're talking about and the one that he's talking about. Both do exist.

This is also true there are stupifyingly horrible managers as well.

[Sailor Steve]

Well I had a nice time at the last McDonalds I went to.
:nope:
It's funny how different experiences can be. There are two different McDonald's I go to semi-regularly, and both have always been consistently fast, precise, and friendly. It's pretty much the same with all the fast-food places in my neighborhood.

[Jeff-Groves]

It's funny how different experiences can be. There are two different McDonald's I go to semi-regularly, and both have always been consistently fast, precise, and friendly. It's pretty much the same with all the fast-food places in my neighborhood.

So as a semi-regular your pretty much a known quantum.
I hit so many different food joints in so many States at so many different times I'm an Unknown Quantum.

I have been in some McDonalds that are so over whelmed that I was amazed at how well the trained people did their jobs!
And all the while being polite and concerned about anyone waiting.

Most?

I once commented that a McDonalds in a Mall was taking care of the drive thru first.
Guy says "We don't have a Drive thru!"
I replied "My point exactly!"
I never ordered from them again.
:haha:

[Sailor Steve]

So as a semi-regular your pretty much a known quantum.
I hit so many different food joints in so many States at so many different times I'm an Unknown Quantum.

Fair point.

As far as what fast-food workers should be making? I see a lot of older folks who need the extra money. They usually do a good job. I see a lot of kids just starting out. Most of them do alright. There are always some who leave something to be desired.

I was suddenly reminded of an old episode of Animaniacs, in which they are all at a drive-in movie. They go to the snack bar. Wacko orders a pizza. The pimple-faced kid with braces asks him "You want fries with that?"

Wacko asks "Why would I want fries with a pizza?"

The kid stares at him for a few seconds, then says "I'll have to ask my manager."

[Jeff-Groves]

When I see people older then me working at a McDonalds or Wal-Mart Etc?
I can't help but feel how much We have been let down.
When I see young kids playing on their phones while those older folks work?
I can't help but hope for a major EMP to hit us.

[Oberon]

Be careful what you wish for, with no gas, no electricity, no medication, no food and no water, those older folks will be just as boned as the youngsters on their phones.

An EMP is an equal opportunity disaster. :O:

[Betonov]

I am going to take a wild guess that you have never been a manager. No one pays managers more because they like them. They pay managers more because it is hard work (most likely different work) and the job sucks, the responsibilities crushing and you have to deal with workers who think that managers don't work. :)

I have been on both sides of the fence. Unless you are self-actualizing, the "perks" of being a manager don't even come close to making up for the stress.

I think there is a vast difference between the type of manager that you're talking about and the one that he's talking about. Both do exist.


I've been a manager. The kind that is manager in all but name and pay because the actuall manager was too incompetent to do anything on his own.
I've ran the people, ordered material, organised with the other work sections, reviewed plans etc. and than had to listen to that fat idiot boasting how the design part of the company was the only one making profit.
And then I was laid off with a manager level unoficial experiences and not enough official experience to run a sowing machine :/\\!!

[vienna]

Be careful what you wish for, with no gas, no electricity, no medication, no food and no water, those older folks will be just as boned as the youngsters on their phones.

An EMP is an equal opportunity disaster. :O:

But some of us older folk, who grew up without most of the electronic gizmos now commonplace would adapt with much more ease and have a better chance of surviving...

This reminds me of my teaching one of my exes how to cook:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pilNQfPD_H8



<O>

[Betonov]

It seems one paramedic hit the nail on it's head.
I'll link it since it contains a few f words

https://www.distractify.com/share-the-wealth-1279867405.html?ts_pid=2&ts_pid=2