US version of Osamas death-not true

[mapuc]

Via a Swedish news page I found this English article by Seymour M. Hersh

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden


The most blatant lie was that Pakistan’s two most senior military leaders – General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, chief of the army staff, and General Ahmed Shuja Pasha, director general of the ISI – were never informed of the US mission


To be honest, I don't know what to believe. Is US version the right one or is Seymour right in his accusation ?

Markus

[Harvs]

Just read this on news.com.au, maybe someones Bin Fibbin

[Jeff-Groves]

Osama was living under an assumed name.
Osama Bin A Hiddin

[mapuc]

:har::har:

[Nippelspanner]

I don't feel like reading a book - does someone have a tl;dr maybe?

[CCIP]

I'm not surprised. Pakistan's intelligence services are incredibly shady and have a very unstraightforward role in all of this. In many ways, I also feel that they've been manipulating the situation with Al Quaeda and Taliban, drone strikes and Chinese interests, and other happenings on their territory for a while to advance their own powers. Managing tensions and playing both sides at the same time.

[Buddahaid]

I'm not surprised. Pakistan's intelligence services are incredibly shady and have a very unstraightforward role in all of this. In many ways, I also feel that they've been manipulating the situation with Al Quaeda and Taliban, drone strikes and Chinese interests, and other happenings on their territory for a while to advance their own powers. Managing tensions and playing both sides at the same time.

Sounds like every government on earth to me.

[Subnuts]

Eh, I'm a fan of the Australian version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL6IisL2qlU

[Wolferz]

:sign_yeah:
:gulp:



Probably made the fish sick.:-?

[Bilge_Rat]

If it was anyone other than Seymour Hersh, this story would not be getting the same play. The WH is denying it, but Hersh made his rep by uncovering stories the U.S. Govt. wanted kept under wraps (i.e My Lai, Abu Ghraib).

What I find interesting is the reaction of the mainstream media, instead of saying: "Hey, there is a story here we should re-look into", they are all following the WH line and trying to destroy Hersh's credibility.

Problem is the same story was reported before by other journalists using different sources:

R.J. Hillhouse, a former professor, Fulbright fellow and novelist whose writing on intelligence and military outsourcing has appeared in the Washington Post and New York Times, made the same main assertions in 2011 about the death of Osama bin Laden as Seymour Hersh’s new story (http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden) in the London Review of Books — apparently based on different sources than those used by Hersh.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/11/former-professor-reported-basics-hershs-bin-laden-story-2011-seemingly-different-sources/

Hillhouse made the same basic points back in aug. 2011, but the story was ignored at the time:



On August 7, 2011, I wrote, among other things:

The US cover story of how they found bin Laden was fiction
OBL was turned in by a walk-in informant, a mid-level ISI officer seeking to claim $25 million under the "Rewards for Justice" program.
The Pakistani Intelligence Service -- ISI -- was sheltering bin Laden
Saudi cash was financing the ISI operation keeping bin Laden captive
The US presented an ultimatum to Pakistan that they would lose US funding if they did not cooperate with a US operation against bin Laden
Pakistani generals Kiyani and Pasha were involved in the US operation that killed OBL
Pakistan pulled out its troops from the area of Abottabad to facilitate the American raid
The Obama administration betrayed the cooperating Pakistani officials
The Obama administration scrambled to explain the crashed helicopter when their original drone strike cover story collapsed
At the time, American media largely ignored the story which was picked up around the world (http://goo.gl/o3JxB2), from London and Sydney, to Istanbul and Islamabad.
The Hersh story makes all of the points described in my 2011 pieces. The Spy Who Billed Me redux.



http://www.thespywhobilledme.com/the_spy_who_billed_me/2015/05/hersh-did-not-break-bin-laden-cover-up-story.html

Now there is a political angle to all this. If it turns out Obama lied about what really happened, then that means his Secretary of State at the time, one mrs. Clinton, also lied. hmmmm. :hmmm:

[donna52522]

Bin Laden was taken out, that's all I care about. I don't care who did it and/or how it was done.

[Aktungbby]

The CIA never gets it right! They bagged Eichhörnchen by mistake!:O:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/78/01/f7/7801f7cd9159dfd63f9340a0e5609072.jpgHigh-level lying nevertheless remains the modus operandi of US policy, along with secret prisons, drone attacks, Special Forces night raids, bypassing the chain of command, and cutting out those who might say no.
Every one back to bed; Business as usual...

[Wolferz]

To the old adage...

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see!
Especially if the source is politicians or the media outlets in their pockets.

[Catfish]

And, those are only some facts that have been found out by chance and seldomly made investigations .. imagine what goes by unnoticed.
I even doubt that Bin Laden himself said he was behind 9/11. The text he speaks in this video is said to mean something completely different.

And is he really dead? Resist always. :D

Not that i really think the secret services were at it .. but capable of executing such a coup? Anytime. Think of middle and South America and US american involvement (Pinochet, Noriega and lots of others..)

[Oberon]

I even doubt that Bin Laden himself said he was behind 9/11.

I doubt very much he directly was, if he had any co-ordination in the attack it was probably just to give it his blessing. I certainly doubt he directly drew it up, but left it to his underlings to get the job done.
He didn't strike me as a Hitler-style meddling leader, but one who let those under his command do things how they wished so long as the job got done.

[Catfish]

And, b.t.w. Bin Laden was reported dead already in december, 2001.
By FOX, CNN, the Telegraph, Guardian and even the Pentagon.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/osama-died-in-2001-msnbc-hit-piece-unwittingly-reveals-corroboration-for-dr-steve-r-pieczenik-s-assertion/24753
"Stephen Pieczenik is an Advisor of TeleContinuity, Inc. Mr. Pieczenik served as a Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and/or Senior Policy Planner under Secretaries Henry Kissinger, Cyrus Vance, George Schultz and James Baker. Dr. Pieczenik was the principal International Crisis Manager and Hostage Negotiator under Secretaries Kissinger and Vance. During this time he developed conflict resolution techniques that were instrumental in saving over five hundred hostages ..."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2001/12/26/report-bin-laden-already-dead/

a.s.o. a.s.o.

Believe what you want, you have a choice among all those lies :D



This is of course all B.
But the west is in a depression or is somehow losing its spirit, i don't know, "We are able to win every battle, but we are losing the war".
Unnecessary lying is considered as mandatory, by our governments.

[Oberon]

http://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-content/uploads/black-helicopter.jpg

[Dowly]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/osama-d...ssertion/24753 (http://www.globalresearch.ca/osama-died-in-2001-msnbc-hit-piece-unwittingly-reveals-corroboration-for-dr-steve-r-pieczenik-s-assertion/24753)
"Stephen Pieczenik is an Advisor of TeleContinuity, Inc. Mr. Pieczenik served as a Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and/or Senior Policy Planner under Secretaries Henry Kissinger, Cyrus Vance, George Schultz and James Baker. Dr. Pieczenik was the principal International Crisis Manager and Hostage Negotiator under Secretaries Kissinger and Vance. During this time he developed conflict resolution techniques that were instrumental in saving over five hundred hostages ..."

That the same Pieczenik who thinks 9/11 was an inside job and Sandy Hook shooting a hoax and/or false flag? :roll:

[Jeff-Groves]

That the same Pieczenik who thinks 9/11 was an inside job and Sandy Hook shooting a hoax and/or false flag? :roll:

Using logical questions in a conspiracy thread.
:hmmm:

You my furry friend have now become part of the cover up.
:D

Care to share some Fruit Salad?
It has Grapes.
OK. Mostly Grapes.
It's all Grapes in fact.
OK. It's fermented Grapes.
It's Wine.
:har:

[mapuc]

First of all. This discussion is about Werther US version of how Osama was killed and the operation behind it is true, or if they, according to this Mr Seymour, was lying to the American people. It is not about 9/11(we have had that discussion thousands of times)

Back to topic.

I have always thought that Seymour was a brilliant Journalist. A journalist that made his homework before publishing a story.

Markus

[Catfish]

That the same Pieczenik who thinks 9/11 was an inside job and Sandy Hook shooting a hoax and/or false flag? :roll:

Well, first i trust globalresearch a bit more than others, but not necessarily this one :D
Second please read the last line(s) of my post
thanks.

[Jeff-Groves]

You can paint a skunk pink.
But that don't make it a My Little Pony.
It still stinks.

[mapuc]

You can paint a skunk pink.
But that don't make it a My Little Pony.
It still stinks.

Where's your imagination ?

Markus

[Jeff-Groves]

Locked on the Fruit Salad.

Read the thread title. It screams "Tin Foil Hat Area".

Years ago I said a space shuttle would blow up someday. Then one did.
Does that make me a psychic? No.
So some dude broke a story that was true. Does that make everything he writes from then on true? No.
Read everything in this thread and tell me it's not a Foil hat load of hot air.

Hard proof or it's people with motives and mirror trickery.
Kind of like the Big Mac I get at McDonalds never looks like the one on TV!

[eddie]

I don't care how or who killed him. Just glad he is dead! As far as this author is concerned, why does he use unnamed sources all the time? But its got to be true, Obama lied, just ask the unnamed sources,LOL

[Jeff-Groves]

Ask the right people? Osama is living with Hitler somewhere.
And Elvis is signing for them as Jim Hendrix plays the guitar.
:har:

[Bilge_Rat]

The issue is not whether the US was right to go after OBL, that is a given.

But if Hersh's version is true, it casts everything in a different light.

There were always problems with the official story that bugged me.

for example:

1. If OBL was in Pakistan incognito, why did he hide in Abbottabad less than 1 mile from a Pakistani military acadamy? seems like a stupid move. OTOH, if he was being guarded by the Pakistanis, as Hersh claims, then the location of his compound makes sense.

2. Why did Obama order a high risk raid risking the lives of 30 SEAL member and invading Pakistan just on the off chance OBL might be in the compound? That always struck me as being out of character for him. OTOH, it makes absolute sense if the Pakistanis gave the green light for the raid to go ahead, confirmed OBL was there and pulled all the guards out before the SEAL team landed.

Under the official version, you have a brave President ordering a high risk mission to capture OBL, you have 30 brave SEAL members risking their lives and fighting their way through OBL's bodyguards to get the target. That is "Zero Dark Thirty"!

Under the Hersh version, 30 heavily armed men are sent to an undefended target to shoot unarmed men and they still manage to crash a helicopter. Meanwhile the U.S. president decides to renege on his deal with Pakistan to get the maximum political benefit out of the story. :hmmm: hmm, does not sound as heroic, does it?

[Platapus]

Bin Laden was taken out, that's all I care about. I don't care who did it and/or how it was done.

Yeah, thats kinds how I feel about it. Unless UBL is still alive I don't really care.

Why would anyone assume that the news media would even have, no less report everything on what was, and still is, a very sensitive military operation?

I am sure that there are a lot of things about the UBL raid that have not been cleared for public release.... some of the stuff may never be cleared for public release.

Governments lie about sensitive military and intelligence operations. Not exactly shocking news.

However, in breaking news, UBL is still dead. :up:

[mapuc]

I can by reading my american friends post on FB, see wether they believe Obama or Seymour is right.

Friends who are pro-Obama, they say Seymour is...

those who are -not-so-pro Obama they say Seymour is...

It's all depend on whatever political belief a person has. That is my conclusion.

Markus

[Jeff-Groves]

However, in breaking news, UBL is still dead. :up:
He's scheduled to lead the Zombie Apocalypse that's coming I heard.
:har:

[Torplexed]

However, in breaking news, UBL is still dead. :up:

I always thought the burial at seafood was a nice touch.

http://pyxis.homestead.com/Sharks.gif

I wonder what happened to the guy who was going to mount an expedition at sea to try and find bin Laden's body. You'd probably stumble across a Malaysian Air jet first.

[Rockstar]

I can by reading my american friends post on FB, see wether they believe Obama or Seymour is right.

Friends who are pro-Obama, they say Seymour is...

those who are -not-so-pro Obama they say Seymour is...

It's all depend on whatever political belief a person has. That is my conclusion.

Markus

Unfortunetaly these days party politics is what all arguments seem to revolve around. Besides battling over wether the party was the sole crusader for truth justice and the american way or liar liar pants on fire.

If what Hersch wrote is true and it got out the Pakistanis were knowingly hiding, aiding and protecting Bin Laden, crap would have hit the fan. Raising questions like why the U.S. hasnt declared Pakistan a terrorist state for aiding our enemy and why is the U.S. allied with them?

UBL is dead and as far as Im concerned thats all what matters now.

[Bilge_Rat]

yes, if Hersh's version is true, it raises a lot of problems not just for Pakistan, but Saudi Arabia as well:

A worrying factor at this early point, according to the retired official, was Saudi Arabia, which had been financing bin Laden’s upkeep since his seizure by the Pakistanis. ‘The Saudis didn’t want bin Laden’s presence revealed to us because he was a Saudi, and so they told the Pakistanis to keep him out of the picture. The Saudis feared if we knew we would pressure the Pakistanis to let bin Laden start talking to us about what the Saudis had been doing with al-Qaida. And they were dropping money – lots of it. The Pakistanis, in turn, were concerned that the Saudis might spill the beans about their control of bin Laden. The fear was that if the US found out about bin Laden from Riyadh, all hell would break out. The Americans learning about bin Laden’s imprisonment from a walk-in was not the worst thing.’

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden

[Dowly]

If, if and if.

Hersh has been critized number of times in the past for using unnamed sources which cannot be confirmed.

So, at best, this is just a rumour.

[Jeff-Groves]

If, if and if.

Hersh has been critized number of times in the past for using unnamed sources which cannot be confirmed.

So, at best, this is just a rumour.
I had a SEAL tell me it's all lies.
I kind of doubt what he told me seeing as he lives in the Toledo Zoo.
:hmmm:

[mapuc]

I agree on some of my friends OBL is dead how it was done is not important.

I found this article interesting therefor I posted it here at Subsim, where I knew many American and people with some military knowledge are gathered

I find it interesting that some people is going after the two main person instead of the story.

Had hope for things like:
The story is true/not true, because....

Markus

[Jeff-Groves]

Had hope for things like:
The story is true/not true, because....

Markus
It still comes down to who or what you believe.
Is this person or that person telling stories and why?
All I ask for his hard proof one way or the other.
I don't believe everything the U.S. Gov tells me but I also doubt the other sources.
I have a simple rule.
If it looks like nut bags thought the whole thing up? It probably was.

[Catfish]

If what Hersch wrote is true and it got out the Pakistanis were knowingly hiding, aiding and protecting Bin Laden, crap would have hit the fan. Raising questions like why the U.S. hasnt declared Pakistan a terrorist state for aiding our enemy and why is the U.S. allied with them? OBL was financed by Saudi Arabia all the time, if they bribed or blackmailed pakistani officials or whoever does not matter, this is all business as usual. Before that Osama was also financed by the US, as long as he acted as a terrorist against the Soviet Union, in Afghanistan.

So why then has the US such good relations with Saudi Arabia? A country that is famous for breeding the worst islamic hardliners, supports terrorism, uses slaves, where women have no rights, and gives a s. to any values the west proclaims it has?

Oh yes the west including Germany builds hotels there, a lot of money is always the excuse, isn't it.
What else than oil and influence to hold others in the middle east in check, could be the answer?

Who does Saudi Arabia currently finance, in the terrorist world?

UBL s dead and as far as Im concerned thats all what matters now. Of course Bin Laden is dead, they shot him on sight, no more questions.
Imagine he would have been questioned officially, openly, publicly, in a court room?
As it is now, the case is (conveniently) closed :smug:

[mapuc]

A military question

Can a group of Navy Seals "invade" a country while it's military is at standard alert(don't know the correct word for it) without being detected ?

I presume the military in Pakistan was not in some high alert mode at that time.

Markus

[Jeff-Groves]

It's what SEALS and other covert Units train for.
So Yes.
You can't build a wall big enuff to keep the determined out.
That's why they have fences around grave yards.
People are dieing to get in!

[Catfish]

... You can't build a wall big enuff to keep the determined out.
That's why they have fences around grave yards.
People are dieing to get in!

:rotfl2::up:

[Jimbuna]

It's what SEALS and other covert Units train for.
So Yes.
You can't build a wall big enuff to keep the determined out.
That's why they have fences around grave yards.
People are dieing to get in!

http://i.imgur.com/EvrcQDE.jpg

[Rockstar]

OBL was financed by Saudi Arabia all the time, if they bribed or blackmailed pakistani officials or whoever does not matter, this is all business as usual. Before that Osama was also financed by the US, as long as he acted as a terrorist against the Soviet Union, in Afghanistan.

So why then has the US such good relations with Saudi Arabia? A country that is famous for breeding the worst islamic hardliners, supports terrorism, uses slaves, where women have no rights, and gives a s. to any values the west proclaims it has?

We can only speculate the Saudi Arabian government is directly supporting terrorism against the United States and its allies. Additionally none of us knows for sure what Hersch said is true either. All I was saying is, IF it were true that an officer brought forth evidence which directly linked the Pakistani government to providing support and refuge to an enemy of the state. Such information would have placed both countries in a bad light and raised a truck load of questions. Namely why is the United States allied with a country whose governement is knowingly harboring our enemy number one. If what Hersch said was true I thnk it likely the US told a different story in an attempt to avoid such embarrassment .

The question was asked who is telling the truth and who is lying. Like everyone else I'm just having fun speculating based on a bunch of what ifs.

Oh yes the west including Germany builds hotels there, a lot of money is always the excuse, isn't it.
What else than oil and influence to hold others in the middle east in check, could be the answer?

i agree money, oil, control, greed, vanity no doubt influence a lot of decisions.

Who does Saudi Arabia currently finance, in the terrorist world?

I havent the faintist idea :)


.

[Bilge_Rat]

A military question

Can a group of Navy Seals "invade" a country while it's military is at standard alert(don't know the correct word for it) without being detected ?

I presume the military in Pakistan was not in some high alert mode at that time.

Markus

yes they have the capability, but these are always very high risk missions, just a few months later the Taliban shot down a Helicopter in a similar raid killing 38, including 15 SEALs from the same team that raided OBL's compound.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Chinook_shootdown_in_Afghanistan

[mapuc]

It's what SEALS and other covert Units train for.
So Yes.
You can't build a wall big enuff to keep the determined out.
That's why they have fences around grave yards.
People are dieing to get in!


Thank you for your answer. I had waited for such an answer. Our own special units in Denmark and Sweden are also trained for this. However Sweden and England has also specieal trained units to catch these elits like soldiers from Navy Seals. I don't know about Denmark.

I guess these units are only in "battle mode" in case of a war or a crisis. And in some exercises.

Could Pakistan have such a unit ?

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Most countries have 'special' forces but the skills/standards/capabilities must differ to some extent and are obviously open to individual opinion.