Massive air defenses on East Britain?

[maillemaker]

So I'm on my first campaign, off the east coast of Britain.

I'm used to SH3, where you can pretty much sail here with impunity in 1939 and 1940.

But I'm getting hammered by aircraft like it's 1944!

Is this normal in SH5?

I'm using Wolves of Steel mod.

I'm pretty much going to have to stay submerged during the day, which is unusual for so early in the war compared to SH3.

Also, are there mines in SH5?

Steve

[THE_MASK]

http://i62.tinypic.com/20jimux.jpg

[vdr1981]

I agree that the air traffic is a little bit too dense in the early stages of war with OHII but on the other hand without it, it would be too easy for player to score unrealistically high tonnage . It's really hard to simulate fear factor in any game so maybe it is better this way.

And it's really not that bad IMO...Most of the time when your crew report aircraft and again few hours later, and again (and again :D), it's the same plane, patrolling the same area, so it's natural for you to get the impression that sky is full of planes.
During the night or when is foggy or cloudy, planes will just fly over you and you wont be spotted.
You should know also that when you send any radio message or you have been spotted by some unit (plane or ship) all nearby aircrafts will move in your direction.

So step beck a bit captain, take some distance form the British coast and maintain radio silence...:yep:

[maillemaker]

I agree that the air traffic is a little bit too dense in the early stages of war with OHII but on the other hand without it, it would be too easy for player to score unrealistically high tonnage . It's really hard to simulate fear factor in any game so maybe it is better this way.

That's for sure! I crawled 1/2 way up the eastern coast before my sub was shot to bits (no UZO and both scopes destroyed). I limped home with only about 5400 tons sunk - one merchant and one fishing boat! :)

And it's really not that bad IMO...Most of the time when your crew report aircraft and again few hours later, and again (and again :D), it's the same plane, patrolling the same area, so it's natural for you to get the impression that sky is full of planes.
During the night or when is foggy or cloudy, planes will just fly over you and you wont be spotted.

I did notice that a couple of times I could not see the plane and from watch reports it just flew away on its course.

You should know also that when you send any radio message or you have been spotted by some unit (plane or ship) all nearby aircrafts will move in your direction.

So step beck a bit captain, take some distance form the British coast and maintain radio silence..

I didn't know about the getting spotted, and that makes sense. Radio silence it is then! :)

Steve

[SeaStalker]

I agree that the air traffic is a little bit too dense in the early stages of war with OHII but on the other hand without it, it would be too easy for player to score unrealistically high tonnage . It's really hard to simulate fear factor in any game so maybe it is better this way.

Did you happen to encounter air traffic that would patrol 24-hours a day? I'm still trying to figure out how they were tracking me at night?:hmmm: Re-charging the batteries was a bit of a problem, until i was eventually far enough away from the coast.

[kevinsue]

So I'm on my first campaign, off the east coast of Britain.

I'm used to SH3, where you can pretty much sail here with impunity in 1939 and 1940.

But I'm getting hammered by aircraft like it's 1944!

Is this normal in SH5?

I'm using Wolves of Steel mod.

I'm pretty much going to have to stay submerged during the day, which is unusual for so early in the war compared to SH3.

Also, are there mines in SH5?

Steve

Doesn't it make you cringe every time the watch officer screams " Flugzeug sehend!! lang Angebot, Lager einer acht sechs" (My crew speak German) or something like it as soon as you poke your head up for a breath of air!! :wah:

I also personally think that the "Time Compression" function of the game has been secretly modded by some dastardly jokester to spawn attacking planes around the English coast simply by hovering your mouse cursor over the TC button!! :haha:

[Aktungbby]

Also: and you can time it yourself; staying 'heavy' at 5-6 meters-will shorten your crash dive times by (reportedly) 50 seconds. It will possibly slow your vessel down but better slow than sunk! Works 4 me in SHV, SHII and AoD.

[kevinsue]

Also: and you can time it yourself; staying 'heavy' at 5-6 meters-will shorten your crash dive times by (reportedly) 50 seconds. It will possibly slow your vessel down but better slow than sunk! Works 4 me in SHV, SHII and AoD.

That is definately not permitted according to the rule book! Us new guys would be better off sunk, than being dragged over the coals for not following regulations! :D





Diving Regulations
for U-boats
(U-boat Div.Reg.)

Berlin 1943
Oberkommando der Kriegsmarine




B. Pre-flooding forward ballast tanks while crash diving

141. Preflooding of the forward or forward and center ballast tanks is prohibited for boats in the homeland.

142. Proceeding with preflooded ballast tanks is prohibited because cruising speed and stability are thereby reduced. The boat can settle and undercut with vents not completely shut, especially at night, without this being noticed by the bridge-personnel in time. The time gain made possible by preflooding stands in no relation to the danger to the boat associated with it.

143. If the order to crash dive is given again while blowing, no premature opening of the forward vents may take place in this condition.

144. The diving times of medium boats are so favorable - in general they are under half a minute - that in general preflooding is not necessary. It is left to the judgment of the Commander whether boats at the front open the vent of the ballast tank Five on crash diving without further notice. This may depend on the weather conditions, the state of training of the boat and other special circumstances.
However, the Commander must ensure that there is always clear instruction about whether it should be preflooded on crash diving or not.

145. In large boats (type IX C, IX D, X B and XIV) the pre flooding of the forward ballast tank or the forward and center diving tanks on crash diving is left to the judgment of the Commander.
In well run front boats it is customary and there is no objection to it.

146. Free.

[Aktungbby]

In large boats (type IX C, IX D, X B and XIV) the pre flooding of the forward ballast tank or the forward and center diving tanks on crash diving is left to the judgment of the Commander.
In well run front boats it is customary and there is no objection to it.:up: :03:
Not aboard the U-505 (now in Chicago) Some crewmen were just considering going heavy due to the boats vulnerability: low clouds, incessant radar, and poor lookout visibility as referenced in Goebbler's book when this happened>http://www.3squadron.org.au/Pix/AWM%20Guide/U-505-Damaged.jpg A crippling Hudson attack which destroyed the attacking aircraft and compelled a long journey back to Lorient. The sub's pressure hull took several days to repair before a shallow dive could even be attempted. "On 10 November near Trinidad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinidad), U-505 was surprised on the surface by a Lockheed Hudson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Hudson)maritime patrol aircraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_patrol_aircraft) from No. 53 Squadron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._53_Squadron_RAF), Royal Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force), which made a low-level attack, landing a 250 lb (110 kg) bomb (Actually 4 depth charges) directly on the deck from just above water level. The explosion killed one watch officer and wounded another in the conning tower. It also tore the anti-aircraft gun off its mounting and severely damaged the ship's pressure hull. The aircraft was hit by shrapnel from the bomb's explosion and crashed into the ocean near U-505, killing the crew. With the pumps inoperative and water flooding the engine room in several places, Kptlt. Zschech, a suicidal martinet, ordered the crew to abandon ship, but the technical staff (led by Chief Petty Officer Otto Fricke) insisted on trying to save her. The vessel was made water-tight after almost two weeks of repair work. After sending the wounded watch officer to the supply submarine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Type_XIV_submarine) ("milk cow") U-462 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-462), U-505 limped back to Lorient on reduced power, earning the distinction of being the "most heavily damaged U-boat to successfully return to port". [wiki] [Goebeler, Hans Jacob, with Vanzo, John. (1999) Steel Boat, Iron Hearts: The Wartime Saga of Hans Goebeler and U-505 (Wagnerian Publications] Screw regulation! go heavy...Herr Dönitz is a forgiving 'old lion'!:O:

[THE_MASK]

Without Trevally OH2.5 air defences around Britain there would be silly tonnage accumulating . Just don't travel around on the surface during the day .

[maillemaker]

Also: and you can time it yourself; staying 'heavy' at 5-6 meters-will shorten your crash dive times by (reportedly) 50 seconds. It will possibly slow your vessel down but better slow than sunk! Works 4 me in SHV, SHII and AoD.

I have discovered that when running at decks awash in SH5 you cannot operate the binoculars. I am running the Wolves of Steel modpack.

Steve

[maillemaker]

Without Trevally OH2.5 air defences around Britain there would be silly tonnage accumulating . Just don't travel around on the surface during the day .

Is the simulated air cover accurate for 1939?

Steve

[Aktungbby]

I have discovered that when running at decks awash in SH5 you cannot operate the binoculars. I am running the Wolves of Steel modpack.

Steve
[/COLOR]

HMMM that's a tough one! When I played SHV (unmodified) I could use the UZO to 5-6 meters; at 7 meters- no UZO and I was the only crewman on the con.:arrgh!: :shifty:

[mobucks]

IRAI is likely also factoring into this.

One thing I do know for sure, if air never sees me on my way close to the eastern coastal waters (been there for 2 months; 2 patrols, 1 refit) I can sail around during the day with relative impunity as long as I'm lucky enough to not be in one of their patrol flightpaths.

I think if they DO see you they will run missions down that bearing more often.

If I'm ever seen by air while in my patrol area, I always dive for the rest of the day. I move my AO at least 30km.

I stay submerged to use the sound guy anyway, so when I finally do get a contact there aren't planes already knowing I'm in the area keeping me down.

Edit:Using TWoS

I also have had a few scary airplanes at night. Never gave them a chance to see if they could see me or even hostile.

[maillemaker]

This is my second patrol to the coast, and I have not seen an aircraft yet, and have been able to stay on the surface a while, so there may be something to the being spotted thing.

However, the fishing boats I have sunk have all radioed distress signals when they sank.

Steve

[THE_MASK]

I have discovered that when running at decks awash in SH5 you cannot operate the binoculars. I am running the Wolves of Steel modpack.

Steve
[/COLOR]And the crew wont spot either . Intentional otherwise you would run decks awash all the time .

[maillemaker]

And the crew wont spot either . Intentional otherwise you would run decks awash all the time .

I'm finding some of these quirks to be annoying.

I don't like breaking things to try to make other things seem more authentic.

If I am at decks awash and the bridge is not underwater and I can use the UZO then I should be able to use binoculars and the crew should not be incapacitated.

What's the point of running decks awash at all if you can't be warned of incoming attacks that were the reason you were running decks awash in the first place?

I don't like inauthentic air cover (assuming it is) to try and make realistic tonnage scores.

Are these things the results of mods or are they stock?

Steve

[THE_MASK]

I'm finding some of these quirks to be annoying.

I don't like breaking things to try to make other things seem more authentic.

If I am at decks awash and the bridge is not underwater and I can use the UZO then I should be able to use binoculars and the crew should not be incapacitated.

What's the point of running decks awash at all if you can't be warned of incoming attacks that were the reason you were running decks awash in the first place?

I don't like inauthentic air cover (assuming it is) to try and make realistic tonnage scores.

Are these things the results of mods or are they stock?

SteveIts mods . If you go to the Silent hunter 5\data\Applications\OptionsFileEditorViewer there is a section there to alter the decks awash height . I have never mucked around with it but you might find a happy medium where you can use binos but still be lower in the water than surfaced .

[vdr1981]

I'm finding some of these quirks to be annoying.

I don't like breaking things to try to make other things seem more authentic.

If I am at decks awash and the bridge is not underwater and I can use the UZO then I should be able to use binoculars and the crew should not be incapacitated.

What's the point of running decks awash at all if you can't be warned of incoming attacks that were the reason you were running decks awash in the first place?

I don't like inauthentic air cover (assuming it is) to try and make realistic tonnage scores.

Are these things the results of mods or are they stock?

Steve
The game thinks that you're submerged and that's it...Nothing we can do abouth it...These small annoyances are common for all Silent Hunters so I'm a bit surprised that you're unfamiliar with them...:hmmm:

Regarding air cover, I remember one great Websters mod for SH4 which makes air patrols less dense but much more dangerous if they attack you on surface...When Trev is bacj we can ask him if he could make something simmilar for OHII. Until then, like I said, step back and keep radio silence...:D

[maillemaker]

The game thinks that you're submerged and that's it...Nothing we can do abouth it...These small annoyances are common for all Silent Hunters so I'm a bit surprised that you're unfamiliar with them...

Well, in SH3, I think you can set your depth to like 7 meters before you are forced below deck. But until you are forced below deck all bridge functions work fine as far as I recall.

Its mods . If you go to the Silent hunter 5\data\Applications\OptionsFileEditorViewer there is a section there to alter the decks awash height . I have never mucked around with it but you might find a happy medium where you can use binos but still be lower in the water than surfaced .

So is the issue that the mod is giving us a decks-awash depth that is actually underwater per the game engine?

I guess I could test this by manually setting a depth as I did in SH3 and seeing at what depth your men are forced below deck and/or bridge functions quit working.

Steve

[kevinsue]

Well, in SH3, I think you can set your depth to like 7 meters before you are forced below deck. But until you are forced below deck all bridge functions work fine as far as I recall.

So is the issue that the mod is giving us a decks-awash depth that is actually underwater per the game engine?

I guess I could test this by manually setting a depth as I did in SH3 and seeing at what depth your men are forced below deck and/or bridge functions quit working.

Steve

There is a "Water Level Time Delay" (WaterLevelTD) option in the "Options File Editor Viewer" under the Time Delays tab.

It's description is: "The time delay (in seconds) to account for heavy seas to prevent unnecessary switching of items (items that depend on whether submerged/surfaced to control state)".

It may be another option to play with while trying the various "Decks Awash" depths.

I have used this option while trying to get the deck/flack gunners to remain at their stations if their Mascara started to run after a few drops of water splashed on them, but with only limited success!:yep:

[mobucks]

The damn flugzeugs were flying cover for this troop convoy all day, preventing an end around. I lost the convoy, so the flugzeugs stopped appearing. Assumed the convoy zigged south so I steamed full ahead in the clear sunshine, diving every 20 minutes to check sound. Nothing. Stopped checking sound, just steaming. Finally an hour later "Flugzeug entdeckt!" puts me under the waves.

"I bet it's that convoy's air cover, check sound!"

And I was right. I had shadowed this convoy from sun up to sun down, and it's only escort was aircraft.

I'm not exactly sure what controls all this, but it certainly feels way more organic than SH4 where every X minutes aircraft are spawned on top of you in the middle of the pacific thousands of miles from any air base.

[mobucks]

There is a "Water Level Time Delay" (WaterLevelTD) option in the "Options File Editor Viewer" under the Time Delays tab.

It's description is: "The time delay (in seconds) to account for heavy seas to prevent unnecessary switching of items (items that depend on whether submerged/surfaced to control state)".

It may be another option to play with while trying the various "Decks Awash" depths.

I have used this option while trying to get the deck/flack gunners to remain at their stations if their Mascara started to run after a few drops of water splashed on them, but with only limited success!:yep:

I don't think messing with those values in TDWuseroptions.py is going to get you anywhere.

Looking in the .sim file for the player subs, there is a surfaced draught, and a submerged draught value. (unit_submarine->obj_Hydro) It looks like the game says the sub (7b in this case) is underwater at a depth to keel of 6.3m, the submerged draught value. I bet the farm that you can use the binocs up until 6.3m.

However when messing with this value, I just don't know what side effects would be for the rest of the game.

[kevinsue]

I don't think messing with those values in TDWuseroptions.py is going to get you anywhere.

Looking in the .sim file for the player subs, there is a surfaced draught, and a submerged draught value. (unit_submarine->obj_Hydro) It looks like the game says the sub (7b in this case) is underwater at a depth to keel of 6.3m, the submerged draught value. I bet the farm that you can use the binocs up until 6.3m.

However when messing with this value, I just don't know what side effects would be for the rest of the game.

What file do you merge with the .sim using Goblin Editor to view the file? I just get a window telling me to get the appropriate actor DLL's and a tree of lost controllers.:hmmm: (I think I have to get serious about learning how to use these editors!):D

[THE_MASK]

What file do you merge with the .sim using Goblin Editor to view the file? I just get a window telling me to get the appropriate actor DLL's and a tree of lost controllers.:hmmm: (I think I have to get serious about learning how to use these editors!):DRight click the GoblinEditorApp icon in your SH5 folder and then properties/Compatability and disable visual themes . Click on the Goblin /Tools/Options . Copy and paste your SH5 location to Actorsdirectory and RootFolder .

[kevinsue]

Right click the GoblinEditorApp icon in your SH5 folder and then properties/Compatability and disable visual themes . Click on the Goblin /Tools/Options . Copy and paste your SH5 location to Actorsdirectory and RootFolder .

Thanks for that :up: gave it a quick try but I'm obviously not doing something right as I'm still getting errors trying to open the NSS_Uboat7b.sim file. I'll give it another go tonight when I get through the mowing, housework and cooking for the dogs! :D

[mobucks]

You need to open up the subs .gr2 file in the goblin editor.

this is from a long time ago, haha I read it last week and didn't realize it was my own damn post telling me how to use the goblin editor!!

Originally Posted by mobucks http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1616823#post1616823)
open the .gr2 file of sub

right click inside project tree

select Add File...

Select the .sim file of your sub

Look bottom of project tree for line NSS_UBoat7b.sim

double click line Unit_Submarine @ NSS_UBoat7B

under "existing behaviors"

under "render"

click "unit_submarine"

on the right window edit behavior

+unit ship
>+obj_hydro
>>+surfaced
>>>+draft


Those directions might be out of date but that's the gist of it. You want to expand the "submerged" tree under "obj_Hydro" and change the value "draught" to something like 7.8 (the deepest the sub will go with you on the bridge)

After you make any changes right click on your sub's .sim file in the middle window pane and select save.


The PROPER way to do this without potentially pooping up your JGME install is to make your own modfolder and install it in the game that way. Making a modfolder and activating it is extremely easy so do it or search how to if you don't know.

You're the alpha tester, let us know how (if?) it works!

[kevinsue]

You need to open up the subs .gr2 file in the goblin editor.

this is from a long time ago, haha I read it last week and didn't realize it was my own damn post telling me how to use the goblin editor!!



Those directions might be out of date but that's the gist of it. You want to expand the "submerged" tree under "obj_Hydro" and change the value "draught" to something like 7.8 (the deepest the sub will go with you on the bridge)

After you make any changes right click on your sub's .sim file in the middle window pane and select save.


The PROPER way to do this without potentially pooping up your JGME install is to make your own modfolder and install it in the game that way. Making a modfolder and activating it is extremely easy so do it or search how to if you don't know.

You're the alpha tester, let us know how (if?) it works!

Hey thanks for the info! :up: I want to get my teeth into learning how to operate these tools....but it looks like it might be a long road for the likes of me! :D

[mobucks]

Okay so making the change I suggested did nothing other than sink the boat and unable to get it back to the surface... Damn.

Anyway the tommies have been sending a lot of night fliers which is annoying in early 1940.

Might be part of IRAI or might be part of OHII. I dono.

[kevinsue]

Not aboard the U-505 (now in Chicago) Some crewmen were just considering going heavy due to the boats vulnerability: low clouds, incessant radar, and poor lookout visibility as referenced in Goebbler's book when this happened>http://www.3squadron.org.au/Pix/AWM%20Guide/U-505-Damaged.jpg A crippling Hudson attack which destroyed the attacking aircraft and compelled a long journey back to Lorient. The sub's pressure hull took several days to repair before a shallow dive could even be attempted. "On 10 November near Trinidad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinidad), U-505 was surprised on the surface by a Lockheed Hudson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Hudson)maritime patrol aircraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_patrol_aircraft) from No. 53 Squadron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._53_Squadron_RAF), Royal Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force), which made a low-level attack, landing a 250 lb (110 kg) bomb (Actually 4 depth charges) directly on the deck from just above water level. The explosion killed one watch officer and wounded another in the conning tower. It also tore the anti-aircraft gun off its mounting and severely damaged the ship's pressure hull. The aircraft was hit by shrapnel from the bomb's explosion and crashed into the ocean near U-505, killing the crew. With the pumps inoperative and water flooding the engine room in several places, Kptlt. Zschech, a suicidal martinet, ordered the crew to abandon ship, but the technical staff (led by Chief Petty Officer Otto Fricke) insisted on trying to save her. The vessel was made water-tight after almost two weeks of repair work. After sending the wounded watch officer to the supply submarine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Type_XIV_submarine) ("milk cow") U-462 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-462), U-505 limped back to Lorient on reduced power, earning the distinction of being the "most heavily damaged U-boat to successfully return to port". [wiki] [Goebeler, Hans Jacob, with Vanzo, John. (1999) Steel Boat, Iron Hearts: The Wartime Saga of Hans Goebeler and U-505 (Wagnerian Publications] Screw regulation! go heavy...Herr Dönitz is a forgiving 'old lion'!:O:

Yahoo!!.....just bought the book "Steel Boat, Iron Hearts: The Wartime Saga of Hans Goebeler and U-505" (Wagnerian Publications] :up:

Guess what I'll be doing for the rest of the day!! :D