Aktungbby
04-25-15, 01:04 PM
I am all for not forgetting the past, also Happy Anzac day. Never forget, it is all propaganda.
And then, Gallipoli. I guess you have to be happy your colonies joined, however i would see this a bit different, especially if i had been treated like the US and Australia, before.
(now ducking for incoming bullets :03:)
No, not really I'm sure that's a common viewpoint. .
In any case it certainly can't hurt to place some poppies in remembrance.
It's also very big for our Turkish allies and friends; LTCOL Kemal Mustapha Atatürk, the opposing commander-wounded at Gallipoli- said it best perhaps, and well ahead of his time. This bond between the ordinary soldiers and sailors who fought at Gallipoli was well expressed by the (later) President of Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk:
"There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us
Where they lie side by side
Here in this country of ours." ‘Anzac’ Lieutenant Oliver Hogue wrote almost in response: "I reckon the Turk respects us, as we respect the Turk;
Abdul’s a good, clean fighter – we’ve fought him, and we know." An account of the strange mutual respect and courtesy of the Gallipoli trenches: "Anyway, near daybreak one morning there came out of their trench at Quinn’s a packet tied to a string, thrown so it lobbed near our parapet and lay outside between the trenches. Of course, our sentries waited for it to explode or fizz or burst into smoke or some such devilry. The sergeant near it looked at it very carefully through a telescope. While he was looking Turkish hands must have come up and waved and then a cautious head. A head our side went up too, and gradually a line of heads on each parapet; and before the sergeant knew what was happening the man next him had climbed up on to the parapet and stepped round the netting and into the deadly area between the trenches and was bringing back the packet. It was a small packet of cigarettes. In it, scrawled in indelible pencil and in badly spelt French, were the words, “A Notre Herox Ennemis” ( To our heroic enemies ). “Bully beef non.” Of course some return had to be made, and so our men threw over a tin or two of bully beef. Presently back flew a piece of paper wrapped round a stone. It read “Bully beef non.” After that we threw some sweet biscuits and a tin of jam. Other cigarettes came back. I have seen some of them. They had on them the same penciled writing, “Notre Cher Enemi” or “Femez – probably meant for “Prenez – A Vee Plessir”: that is, “To our dear enemy – “Take with pleasure”; another reads :Envoyez Milk” (“Send us milk”). Then one of them waved down with his hands and shouted “Fini”. And our men waved back, and down gradually went the two lines of smiling heads, and after a pause of a minute or two the bombs began to fly again. They had begun at half-past 8 and they lasted until about a quarter past 9."
http://www.anzacsite.gov.au/2visiting/turkish_images/ataturk_img_0347.jpg<The Atatürk Aniti (Memorial) at Conkbayiri, Gallipoli. Kemal's whip can be clearly seen behind his back. The concrete balls on the ground in front of the memorial mark the spot where Kemal was hit by shrapnel
Downunderjock
04-26-15, 02:30 AM
Dear Catfish, HW3, and all. plus others who may read this.
Firstly, To Torplexed, Harvs and Sailor Steve, thank's for how you sum things up.
Foz, enjoyed your Lest We Forget. In Flanders Fields.
(but that music vid, not happy, Jan.)
As for Collingwood in the Aussie rules Football, Turn it up! (meaning: no way in hell.) Mate! Richmond Tigers, get it right.
Fubar2Niner and Aktungbby, very nice.
Now for some serious stuff. Hope you will not mind how I write and express myself and I hope I don't offend anyone along the way.
(er..! or it's length. Whoops.)
To Catfish, HW3 and others. I know you meant no disrespect, when you said " Happy" ANZAC Day or that we celebrate, like an anniversary.
(I did enjoyed the rest of what you wrote, though.)
However, we Australians and our New Zealand cousins, etc.
Some of us, are not fond of saying it's a celebration or it's a happy occasion.
It's largely the dam Media, NEWS, Papers, Radio and T.V that flutes it that way. (the internet.)
We, most of us here, tend to see it as a day of Commemoration. a day of Reflection, to honour those who fought in WW1 and other conflicts, after it.
Like what Harvs, mentioned the show "The Last ANZACs."
Many only wish to remember, their mates, who kept them, sane.
(after what they all, went through.)
I am taking a guess, like in America, your Veterans Day, the U.K and other Countries worldwide, have a similar day. That you don't celebrate, like say St Patrick's day, etc.
We might celebrate, proudly, but respectfully the lives of those who fought, in WW1 and beyond. Their lives, before the War. Yes, we take on knowing what they did in the respective conflict and for those who came back, their life after war. What good things, they did beyond it.
Yes, we will say, they did a heroic, noble thing, let's celebrate that.
But to them. They would prefer, it not to be overstated. Or have liberties grandly taken, about what they did.
They, might accept, maybe, at the likes of an ANZAC march, respectful clapping, maybe a small cheer.
But, don't go calling them, Hero's. Because to many, the only one's they consider as Hero's, are their mate's, that never returned.
And the only thing, they might celebrate, at say the Pub, is to raise a glass, in honour of the mate's they lost. And if any, survived. To talk of what got them through the War, there and back again, home. Their mate's the living ones and sadly, the one's, who did return.
Maybe, I say this, though.
I like this show about ANZAC VC Medal winners of WW1:
https://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-night/features/a/27065343/the-power-of-ten-watch-part-one/
https://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-night/features/a/27208234/the-power-of-ten-watch-part-two/
I think it was good to see.
But, there are many more, of all conflicts, who only received their normal Service Medals, nothing more, than that. Did their duty, for their country got, nothing extra. But when you read their files, or newspaper articles or internet sites. They did many similar things, as these who won the VC.
They should be up there, too.
But, don't over do it and call them, Hero's. Or ask them, about certain aspects, of war. Because it's too, painful and horrible.
It maybe, why some don't march, or want to think about.
But, all Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen, who return from a war, are injured in some way, sadly.
So, let's remember them, they way they would like us, to, with solemn respect.
Now, something that you might like to look at about ANZAC. Some of you may know who actor Sam Neill is, you might enjoy this, as he tries to explain the ANZAC legend, as some call it:
http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/why-anzac-with-sam-neill/DO1308H001S00
As for why, we might be Nationalistic about Gallipoli. For Australians and Kiwis.
Abit, of what Catfish and Torplexed, wrote.
But, also this. As the other thread in the forum, recently, wrote I think it called WW1
Yes, is was a defeat, for us. And we didn't lose as may men, as the other Nations, that fought there.
But I think for us, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. Maybe, we wanted to prove, to the bigger Nations of the World, that we were just as good as they were, or are.
Esp: To that of England.
Since, we never did similar as the U.K, USA and other countries worldwide. In the past.
We also wanted to maybe prove, to ourselves, that if called, we would be there. At the ready.
To date, for the last 50 or so years or more, we seem to wanting to be like some other countries, in all manner of things.
And sometimes, I wonder, if that's a good thing??
But, to whose country, does any one country, wish to emulate, which way does one, go?? Which one is, right.??
And yes, at the time of WW1. We felt compelled to fight for England, etc. Quite willingly. Because we felt it was, correct thing to our duty.
I know some of our US friends, might say that wasn't the same for the US. However, some of your countrymen and women and Government, did want to take part, but public opinion, said otherwise.
(Same, for WW2. And like WW2 some did join, before the USA, came in officially.)
The sinking of the Lusitania, for example. (Like Pearl harbour.)
Some in power, were hoping this would happen, to help change public opinion.
And look what a happened, after WW1, with as an example the carving up of Nations borders, in Europe. esp the Middle East.
(which could explain, a lot for what is happening, now? Or in Nelson's time, too.)
Also, we here, as you know are via the Media, it's always about Gallipoli.
(not that I mind it, in one respect.)
But it's, not the only place.
We, did good as per HMAS Sydney and SMS Emden and Cocos Keeling Islands capture. Plus the Germans, who made a daring escape home.
(pass the word to the battleships, sites and gamers.)
http://sydneyemden100.com.au/
There was also another special site about the 100 of this battle.
(Oh Boy, the poor Emden though she ran aground, still got pounded, by the Sydney, due to the rules of engagement, of not cutting her Stern Flag down. Even, the Commander of Sydney in his diaries, did not wish it to continue, but orders where, orders.) And I think that still happened in WW2.
Papua New Guinea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bita_Paka#Battle
We did well, there too.
The Desert Front WW1, with the Light Horse Regiments.
http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/australias-great-war-horse/DO1302W001S00
Even beat Laurence of Arabia, to one town.
Subs the AE1 and AE2 events.
Good and bad for that lot.
Plus other similar event, for Land Sea and Air?
All are mentioned briefly, but are over shadowed by Gallipoli.
(and the Western Front)
Why, who knows.
As I said, earlier, we may have not lost as much men as other Nations, on that field, so to speak.
Or, won.
Maybe, it was for us personally, well remembered because, of how many for both our countries, we lost.
How horrible it was. Thanks, to the likes Bean and Murdoch, getting the truth out in the papers of the day and to Lord Kitchener.
Who, then, agreed as Birdwood, had said to Hamilton, etc.
Wrong beach, we need to evacuate. Though Hamilton, said no way.
We were rifle fodder, for Empire.
Like the Battle of the Nek and Lone Pine, etc.
(and to those places, where Kiwis, French, Indians, etc. Even Brits. And Turks, alike for their cause.)
Even, Air power might have made a difference?
http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/gallipoli-from-above-the-untold-story/ZX9937A001S00
But, who knows, had we landed on the right beach, would that have made any difference. Among other things.
It's all history, now.
(Like Dieppe, Dunkirk, D day, same for the Pacific areas, in WW2)
Anyway, we fought and lost many men, like your country did.
It's a pity really, had they known, what they were in for all, of them friend or foe. I wonder, would they still have said, Yes? To fighting.
And I thank the Turks (like the French and Belgium's.) esp, for all that had happened, they allowed us, to bury as many of our dead, make formal memorials, that we can come to, too honour our dead.
So, this might be why we respectfully, pay our respects.
And talk about Gallipoli, so highly like we do.
And to, all Nations.
"Lest We Forget"
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