A few quick questions

[LeBueno]

Well, I am playing my first ever career. Many questions pop to my mind all the time, but I usually find out the answers from here. Now I have a few questions where I can't find answers, and so I "had" to make this thread.
So, I am in my type VIIB somewhere in the North Atlantic, Northwest from British Islands. My mission was to move to AL36 and patrol for 24hrs there. I'm in the point where I am already returning from my mission. I have succesfully sunk a little over 10 tons of British ships on this mission (3 merchants). Here are the questions:

1) People talk about ending their patrol by simply pressing esc and clicking something like "return to harbour", is it disabled with harder realism settings (I have 74%)? If its not, do you guys use it? Feels for me as cheating.
2) Do I have the fuel to go back?:D I have currently about 40% fuel left, and I am still somewhere at AMXX. I don't think I ever had the fuel to do such a long trip?
3) How much freedom did the U-boat captains have? I mean, when they got orders just to go to a grid XX and patrol there, could they just attack what ever they wanted when they were sailing to the grid? Did they have the freedom to just go in to some harbours to blow some warships down? I feel a little guilty when I waisted time to kill one merchant on my way there. But after all do BdU care where I sink enemy ships if I am sinking them?
4) Best tactic to deal with enemy planes? Immediate crash dive or try to shoot em down? It seems that my sailors are doing some lazy job up there as they spot incoming planes so late...


I'm thinking also that would it be good to make a sticky thread named something like "quick questions" or something, as it feels stupid to make a new thread for all the little questions what come up in your mind. In example, Hearts of Iron 3 forum has a thread for quick questions, its very useful as people can post their questions there and get a answer and no "unuseful" threads has to be done.

Thank you for your answers.

[halldorp]

Hello LeBueno,

Here are my thoughts regarding your questions:

1. I agree with you, teleporting to base is too much arcade style and I personally never do this (I finally took the step to 100% realism, much more fun that way).

2. The fuel you use depends greatly on your speed of travel. Don't use "Full speed" when in transit, only when overtaking or intercepting a target. If you keep your speed at 10-12 knots you should easily be able to return to base. On the VIIB you should be able to go from Wilhelmshaven, around England (not the Channel, the northern route) to Gibraltar, and then back.

3. I'm not an expert on this, but I believe that the captains were encouraged to attack valid enemy targets on the way to the patrol zone, but entering enemy harbors and risking the boat and crew, I would think not. Focus on the merchants, not high risk areas and warships.

4. One tactic is to fire at the plane in its first pass, and then crash dive. In my experience it's not worth the risk (found out the hard way several times), crash dive right away when a plane is spotted. In order to let the crew spot the planes earlier, keep time compression down. Recommended value is 128, but you might use higher values if you are impatient.

Best regards and happy hunting,
halldorp

[maillemaker]

1) People talk about ending their patrol by simply pressing esc and clicking something like "return to harbour", is it disabled with harder realism settings (I have 74%)? If its not, do you guys use it? Feels for me as cheating.

I play 100% realism, so teleporting is not allowed. You're right - a lot can go wrong on a long ride home.

2) Do I have the fuel to go back?:D I have currently about 40% fuel left, and I am still somewhere at AMXX. I don't think I ever had the fuel to do such a long trip?

If you set waypoints back to home, it will tell you the range to get home. And your navigator can give you a report of maximum range available at current speed. I usually poke along at ahead 1/3. (or whatever is just below "standard").



I'm pretty sure no commander would pass up any valid target unless ordered specifically to transit to a particular place as quickly as possible or to remain undetected.

The only harbor raid I know of historically was Scapa Flow. I vaguely recall some raids being conducted out of the belly of a ship in some harbor using midget subs or divers or something but I'm fuzzy.

Anyway harbor raiding while fun is pretty unrealistic. All you have to do is park yourself next to a sea wall and most of the mobile units will ground themselves and blow themselves up.

[quote]4) Best tactic to deal with enemy planes? Immediate crash dive or try to shoot em down? It seems that my sailors are doing some lazy job up there as they spot incoming planes so late...

Depending on what mods you are using, trying to shoot down planes can be a waste of time. You're pretty much guaranteed to take damage and once you get past 1942 a damaged sub is pretty much a dead sub against escorts as you need to be able to dive to your max depth to escape.

I've duked it out with planes before out of spite but you're pretty much wasting the mission.

Steve

[Sailor Steve]

First, if I missed you before, WELCOME ABOARD! :sunny:

My mission was to move to AL36 and patrol for 24hrs there. I'm in the point where I am already returning from my mission.
I know I'm answering a question you didn't ask, but it's something I thought I should point out. The "24 hours" thing is not accurate. The game was originally supposed to have a scripted campaign system, and when the community here and at the UBISoft forums convinced the devs to switch to a random campaign that item was one of the leftovers. Historically you would be assigned to patrol a grid and you would stay there until told otherwise. This is one of the things that SH4 fixed.

I personally stay in my assigned grid for the entire patrol, unless I find no targets at all, then I use dice to simulate requesting a new grid, to determine both if and where.

1) People talk about ending their patrol by simply pressing esc and clicking something like "return to harbour", is it disabled with harder realism settings (I have 74%)? If its not, do you guys use it? Feels for me as cheating. The teleport function is not realistic at all, but there is one time you have to use it - when your rudder is destroyed. Real U-boats had two propellers and could use them to steer. The game won't let you do that, so sometimes the teleport is vital. Other than that I never use it. I keep mine set at 99% for just that reason.

2) Do I have the fuel to go back?:D I have currently about 40% fuel left, and I am still somewhere at AMXX. I don't think I ever had the fuel to do such a long trip? I cruise to and from my grid at 1/3 speed (setting 2 - 7 knots in a Type VII). This leaves me plenty of fuel, and I always patrol at slow speed, which is about 4 knots. I've never run out of fuel, and I've been playing on and off since the game was released ten years ago.

3) How much freedom did the U-boat captains have? I mean, when they got orders just to go to a grid XX and patrol there, could they just attack what ever they wanted when they were sailing to the grid? Did they have the freedom to just go in to some harbours to blow some warships down? I feel a little guilty when I waisted time to kill one merchant on my way there. But after all do BdU care where I sink enemy ships if I am sinking them? That's a very good point. The main problem is that the stock game gives you a lot more targets than they ever saw. That said, the game doesn't care where you sink your ships. In the stock game you get a certain amount of renown just for going to your grid and you get more for staying there the 24 hours. GWX removes that bonus. This is easily offset by the renown awarded for sinking ships, and the game doesn't distinguish between the two. I don't think any of the other supermods do that, except NYGM which removes renown altogether.

The U-boats were tightly controlled by BdU, and had to get permission for pretty much everything they did. That said, they did wander a little bit and were expected to show some initiative. When and how much was determined by how successful they were when they did it.

As for harbors, the game is again very little like real life. Everybody knows about Gunther Prien, U-47, Scapa Flow and HMS Royal Oak. What a lot of people don't know is that Admiral Doenitz himself planned the mission using aerial photographs and hand-picked Prien for the job. There were a couple of harbor raids against merchants, but a naval base was pretty much impossible to penetrate. The impunity with which the game allows you to do so borders on the ridiculous.

4) Best tactic to deal with enemy planes? Immediate crash dive or try to shoot em down? It seems that my sailors are doing some lazy job up there as they spot incoming planes so late... The stock game gives you dozens of planes attacking all at once, and they are easy to shoot down. The supermods cut that number way back, and as in real life they are hard to kill. To guarantee early spotting make sure in the F7 screen that the green bar is full to the max.

I'm thinking also that would it be good to make a sticky thread named something like "quick questions" or something, as it feels stupid to make a new thread for all the little questions what come up in your mind. In example, Hearts of Iron 3 forum has a thread for quick questions, its very useful as people can post their questions there and get a answer and no "unuseful" threads has to be done. We have had many threads just like that, some of them stickied. The problem becomes when they reach several hundred pages and the older members get tired of answering the same questions over and over, since no newbie wants to read the whole thread before asking his questions. It's just as easy to let the new guy start his own thread. At least this way he knows where it is.

[sublynx]

This handbook from 1942/1943 : www.maritime.org/doc/uboat/index.htm gives the principles of when attacking was allowed and when not.

Additionally attacking anything but carriers and battleships was not allowed while passing the Gibraltar straits, at least in late 1942.

[bstanko6]

My general rule on fuel and engine speed:

Head out slow

Do the deed

Come home fast

[CCIP]

The U-boats were tightly controlled by BdU, and had to get permission for pretty much everything they did. That said, they did wander a little bit and were expected to show some initiative. When and how much was determined by how successful they were when they did it.

Yup, that basically sums it up :yep:

Doenitz was a bit of a control freak - and, ironically, both because of the broken Enigma codes and HF/DF, the sheer amount of radio traffic from U-boats made them easier for the Allies to track and destroy.

It would definitely be fair to say that commanders were expected to take initiative tactically, but not operationally, let alone strategically. Firing a torpedo at a ship in your sights, diving from an attacking aircraft, or breaking off contact when damaged is a tactical decision. Engaging a convoy, pursuing a contact outside your patrol sector, or checking out a nearby port would be an operational decision. Deciding to go into the Mediterranean, or choosing between going to the South Atlantic vs. the Caribbean is a strategic decision.

So, the easy way to think about it is to say that tactical decisions are the commander's to make, while all operational and strategic decisions were strictly the BdU's.

[sublynx]

Well put CCIP! That tactical operational strategic decision thing really sums it up perfectly! Thanks. I'm going to follow that advice the next time I'm wondering what action would have been possible in my situation.:arrgh!:

[CCIP]

It's a handy way of thinking of it :yep:

Another way of thinking about it is captain vs. admiral - in many situations, you might have both on board a ship, as for example in the Bismarck's last fight. In normal circumstances, there is clear division of who does what - the admiral makes operational decisions, but tactics are for captains to handle.

Fun fact: the Type IX was originally designed not as a long-range raider, but as a wolfpack command boat. Initially, Doenitz was concerned about communications at sea, and so the Type IXs were built with better radio equipment and quicker surface speeds so that they could serve as mobile command posts, which would carry an operational commander on board (alongside the captain) who would coordinate his wolfpack, and report to FdU who would make strategic decisions from shore. It then turned out that radio transmitters in Germany were powerful enough to communicate with uboats anywhere in the ocean, and of course Doenitz jumped at the opportunity to control all operations himself. He then tried to get all Type IX production cancelled in favour of more Type VIIs, until their incidental value as long-range raiders became apparent. But that was not what they were designed for! (except the later IXDs)

The operational/strategic difference is also partly why Doenitz's title was changed from FdU (Fuhrer des Ubootes) to BdU (Befehlshaber des Ubootes) - basically going from "chief" to "commander" in 1939, shortly after the war started. It actually reflected an expanded operational role.

[UKönig]

[QUOTE=CCIP;2309216]It's a handy way of thinking of it :yep:

Another way of thinking about it is captain vs. admiral - in many situations, you might have both on board a ship, as for example in the Bismarck's last fight. In normal circumstances, there is clear division of who does what - the admiral makes operational decisions, but tactics are for captains to handle.

That's because the Captain is in command of the ship while the Admiral is in command of the fleet.

Ever wonder why they call it "the flag ship"? In the days before radio, the ship in charge gave orders with signal flags. It had to be so positioned within the fleet so that all the other ships could see it, and its flags, so they'd know what to do. Took me many years to get it. I always thought it was a flagship because the Admiral flew his own personal flag from it. Not entirely true, as it turned out...

[sublynx]

Interesting. I didn't know about the command boat / FdU-BdU thing.

[bstanko6]

As far as attacking while going to your patrol zone:

The U-boat commander's handbook clearly states that a commander should never give up the opportunity to attack the enemy if a situation presents itself. You may not get another chance.

section 16 pg.23 says "In all operations against the enemy, the commander of the submarine is entirely independent, and free to make his own decisions, unless special cooperation is called for."

Another part of the handbook (I can't remember where) clearly states, if your patrol consists of small tonnage freighters, then you "get what you get", and do not hold out for other opportunities.

[sublynx]

Have a look at the handbook's section B. System of command. There are restrictions on attacking, depending on the current task the U-boat has been assigned.

[LeBueno]

Thank you all for awesome answers what cleared many things out for me! Especially that handbook what sublynx posted! I have read many pages of it and it really makes things more easy to understand. Plus its the real deal written to real U-boat commanders so it is one thing what you can trust.

Regarding the fuel question: maybe it wasn't the wisest decision to travel the entire time at ahead full :haha:. Next time I'll know that it would be better to sail slower than ahead standard all the times.

[Marcello]

Thank you all for awesome answers what cleared many things out for me! Especially that handbook what sublynx posted! I have read many pages of it and it really makes things more easy to understand. Plus its the real deal written to real U-boat commanders so it is one thing what you can trust.

Regarding the fuel question: maybe it wasn't the wisest decision to travel the entire time at ahead full :haha:. Next time I'll know that it would be better to sail slower than ahead standard all the times.

Keep in mind that the SH3 world is not a sphere, which means that the distance from A to B might be significantly longer than in real life. The mods compensate for this to an extent but only so much.
Also while in general going slower takes less fuel both in the game and in real life things are a bit more complicated in the latter case than in the former.

[Rambler241]

I agree re. "Exit Patrol" and return to base automatically. U-boat captains didn't have a "beam me up Scotty" option available. Either SH3 is a simulation, or it's just another game.

I try act out RL as a commander as much as possible. It doesn't appear to matter (in SH3) whether you use the observation scope or the attack scope - both seem equally able to spot distant targets and much closer aircraft - even those overhead, but I do use the obs. scope in the situations a RL commander would.

It doesn't seem to matter whether your sonar man is an experienced sonar-qualified warrant officer, or a pimply-faced erk just out of seaman's school - both seem equally able to identify sonar contacts in a timely manner. My sonar man is the former however - even if it's irrelevant in SH3, it matters to me.

It didn't appear to matter how experienced or qualified the watch crew was, their ability (or not) to spot ships or aircraft seemed identical. It mattered to me, so I ferreted out the config setting which made their ability reflect their experience, and altered it accordingly.

What doesn't matter to me is whether others here think I'm being obsessive or not. I'm commander on my boat.

[Sailor Steve]

What doesn't matter to me is whether others here think I'm being obsessive or not. I'm commander on my boat.
If it doesn't matter, why bring it up?

I know I'm very obsessive with my SH3, and I'm not afraid to admit it. :sunny: