Little help guys

[Gargamel]

So we're digging through my girlfirend's attic, looking at her sword collection (After estimating her Star Wars collection at about $2k, and she likes Stargate and Firefly, this ones a keeper!), when I came upon this:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll203/goestrider/0B8BFB3A-65B8-42E9-9C73-CFB07BE46772-1108-0000006856934004_zpsubgubriw.jpg


http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll203/goestrider/DA6F539E-1773-49AA-A02F-C53A6D08EE30-1108-0000006851C99991_zpsjuvlxfpt.jpg

It's a bayonet, with a spring loaded attachment point. The blade is marked with a circle 8 and a diamond N. It's about 14-16" long, and has a scabbard.

She wondered what war it was from, as it appears to be authentic, and I'm guessing WWII, but I told her I knew just the guys to ask.

[GoldenRivet]

The circle 8 represents the Japanese Imperial Army - Nagoya arsenal

Looks like a type 30 manufactured mid world war two... what is the length from end to end in inches or mm?

Edit: are you certain it is an "N" within the diamond symbol? Definitely Japanese Arisaka bayonet with straight guard, they made the type 30 with a curved guard as well?

also, any markings on the end of the handle? pictures of that?

[GoldenRivet]

Here:

My stepson collects knives, bayonets swords etc

this has been a great tool in IDing some of them

http://worldbayonets.com/Bayonet_Identification_Guide/bayonet_identification_guide.html

[August]

Figure-eight inside a circle (Nagoya Arsenal mark) and diamond with a rectangle inside (Toyoda Automatic Loom Works mark)

http://worldbayonets.com/Bayonet_Identification_Guide/Japan/japan_2.html

[Gargamel]

So I'm trying to get her to join as either smurfette or Asrael or Azriel (Azrael was taken), cause she's really digging the research she's doing and the help you guys are providing.

She found some serial numbers (in the pic), but she says the markings aren't really lining up with the pages you guys have linked, and are difficult to read. She would like some help deciphering the first few markings of the serial number. I also have been corrected, the length is actually 20" (not sure if that's overall or blade, it has to be overall, I'm not always 6" off in my estimates :D ). (EDIT: I see the yard stick now, but it's kinda far away)

She thanks you guys by the way, and is a little awed by the collective knowledge here. (And she was wondering why the military parts of Furious 7 was pissing me off LOL) I'm really digging the fact it's an IJN blade. I was 90% expecting US issue, or perhaps German.

I'm curious as to the notion that it's history could be traced using the serial number, would that be possible?

So, if any of these show some clues, she would really like the help:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll203/goestrider/8A031C43-FCDB-4435-AA53-FE3920B2B410-2692-0000015C0DB5CE72_zpsibx329wc.jpg
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll203/goestrider/B6D42C41-4FCE-4BAA-BF36-C7F7697163DF-2692-0000015C0709820F_zpsvgxnqi5b.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll203/goestrider/05B19318-6F9C-436E-82A8-D7A9EA6B42CA-2692-0000015C01A7E094_zpsjtu15b6d.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll203/goestrider/432A1E57-DADC-46A7-A7AC-927088FB4A3F-2692-0000015BFA7ED5C5_zpstfiygcty.jpg

She said there's a very faint Japanese pictogram just below the serial numbers that she never noticed before, but it doesn't quite show in the photo. (Side note, I'll look into doing some infra-red photo's to see if anything else shows up).

EDIT: Could we please leave this in GT for a bit, then move it over to the appropriate forum when we finish the research? I'd like to get a bit of extra traffic to the thread. Thanks!

[Rockstar]

Hard to tell in the photo but the pictogram could be a Chrysanthemum flower which is the seal of the Japanese imperial family. Technicallly I think it means the bayonet still belongs to them and you are in the possession of stolen property. :haha: <j/k>

[les green01]

does look like a Japanese Arisaka bayonet to me had a friend who fought in the philipeans came home with the rifle and bayonet

[GoldenRivet]

It is definitely a Japanese Arisaka Bayonet

The circular symbol with the figure 8 represents the Nagoya Arsenal, this is actually the symbol of Nagoya at the time and is derived from the symbol of the two mythical dolphins (the Shachi) symbolized on the roof ends of the Nagoya Castle which is a prominent land mark in Nagoya

The diamond symbol represents the bayonet was manufactured by a company called Riken Kozai under the supervision of Nagoya Arsenal (or under authorization or contract etc)

much like you have the Vought F4U Corsair - while being designed and built by Vought contracts allowed for the aircraft to also be produced by Brewster and Goodyear because of demand - the same is true of Japanese rifles and bayonets - the Arisaka had a couple of variations in the design, but due to the sheer numbers needed for production several companies were authorized to manufacture them... Riken Kozai being one of them. While Riken Kozai's headquarters was located in Gunma Prefecture their primary factory was in Tokyo.

Thus based on the markings on the blade, this bayonet was produced in Tokyo by Riken Kozai under the authorization of Nagoya Arsenal

as for the serial number "59131" - the serial numbers ranging from 50,000 to 99,999 were manufactured by from 1940-1945. the closer the serial number is to 50,000 - the closer to 1940 the production range... 99,999 would be the last Arisaka bayonet produced by this manufacturer prior to the surrender.

the "glyph" preceding the serial number is called a "series marker"

If there was an absence of a series marker it meant that the bayonet was produced for training of soldiers and would have been issued to military schools in Japan or would have been used to train soldiers during their bayonet training - this would also be indicated by the absence of a serial number entirely

because there is a glyph preceding the serial number, one can deduce that this bayonet was produced for issue to a combat ready unit

the series marker preceding the serial number just shows the series of bayonet

EDIT: given the image of the scabbard and the overall length from end to end being 20 inches - it is 100% a Japanese Arisaka Type 30 bayonet. Given that the serial number is pre-60,000 i would estimate the bayonet was constructed prior to the end of 1941 which means it was probably part of the bayonets disseminated for use almost anywhere in the Pacific Theater of Operations during WW2 - there is unfortunately no way to know exactly where each bayonet went or what battles - if any - it participated in. But you can almost guarantee that this one was affixed to the end of a rifle, and given the tenacity of the fighting in the Pacific its likely that it saw combat - even if it never did draw blood.

[Sailor Steve]

Vaught
It's 'Vought'.

contracts allowed for the aircraft to also be produced by Brewster and Goodyear because of demand - the same is true of Japanese rifles and bayonets
Building stuff "under license" is an old and time-honored practice. My "03 Springfield" was built by Remington in 1942. :sunny:

[GoldenRivet]

It's 'Vought'.


Building stuff "under license" is an old and time-honored practice. My "03 Springfield" was built by Remington in 1942. :sunny:

Honest mistake made while typing and going back and forth between various windows and tabs... sorry - as a ww2 airplane nut i should have known better :salute: consider it fixed

[Tinychai]

Hello this is the girlfriend of gargamel who owns the bayonet. GR, the serial number I know is kinda hard to see but that first number is actually a 39131. Thanks for all the information that u had giving me it is pretty cool.

[GoldenRivet]

Hello this is the girlfriend of gargamel who owns the bayonet. GR, the serial number I know is kinda hard to see but that first number is actually a 39131. Thanks for all the information that u had giving me it is pretty cool.

no problem

the pre 50,000 serial number would have been produced prior to 1940, probably 1939. In which case it may have spent some time in China or the Philippines (?) prior to US involvement in the war

[Sailor Steve]

Welcome Aboard, Tinychai! :sunny:

Some cool toys you have there.

[Jimbuna]

Welcome to SubSim Tinychai, I like your collection/hobby :sunny:

[Aktungbby]

Tinychai!:Kaleun_Salute:http://antiqueoutings.com/bayonets-of-japan/ (http://antiqueoutings.com/bayonets-of-japan/) Cool! I collect Civil War bayonets so I run across everything else at the gun shows as well.

[les green01]

welcome Tinychai here what this world war two vet that fought in the philippines said when he show me the rifle and bayonet he had,sadly he just pass away at 92 so I might get some of the story wrong,right after the war ended him and his buddies was told that there was a bunch of rifles and bayonets laying around so him and some of his buddies went there grab some later on they was told they couldn't have them or couldn't bring them home or something like that and was going be destroyed by dumping them in the ocean which upset this vet.GoldenRivet is correct that's a Prewar Japanese Arisaka Bayonet