Can anyone help with some historical research?

[MajorArtNZ]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone can help me with some research that I am doing for my next visual art painting series. My newest paintings will be set underwater, and I am giving this series a strong historical context.
The subject matter I am looking for are as many images as possible on the following First World War Royal Navy ships:

HMS Invincible, Indefatigable, Queen Mary
HMS Defence, Warrior and Black Prince
HMS Triumph, Irresistible and Formidable
HMS Audacious, Goliath and Majestic
HMS Aboukir, Hogue and Cressy
HMS Good Hope and Monmouth

For the keen observer, you will notice all of those ships were sunk during the war. Would any of you know, where I could find a wealth of imagery for these ships? In the interest of time, I am flexible on the exact ship- their respective class would be good enough. In an ideal world, close up shots, on the bridge, main deck etc would be the best to work with.
A fair amount of research has already been done, but if there is a site or reference out there that would make this job easier, that would be very handy.

If you would like to see more of what I do, you will find it here; www.major-art.com

Thanks in advance!

[Sailor Steve]

This site should give you everything you could ever dream of.
http://www.photoship.co.uk/Browse%20Ship%20Galleries/

[Jimbuna]

HMS Invincible, Indefatigable, Queen Mary
HMS Defence, Warrior and Black Prince
HMS Triumph, Irresistible and Formidable
HMS Audacious, Goliath and Majestic
HMS Aboukir, Hogue and Cressy
HMS Good Hope and Monmouth

All the above are here:

http://hwww.naval-history.net/OWShips-LogBooksWW1.htm

[MajorArtNZ]

Wow, thanks Jimbuna & Sailor Steve, those are pretty comprehensive. Thanks so much for your help! I can't wait to start these new paintings, I'll be sure to post some to share with you all! :)

[Aktungbby]

All the above are here:

http://hwww.naval-history.net/OWShips-LogBooksWW1.htm

Strangely, HMS Queen Mary seems not to be on the link provided; the more so as she was the only or sole vessel of her class essentially an upgraded, larger and heavier (1000 tons more) Lion class battlecruiser with the same armament..."HMS Queen Mary was the last battlecruiser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlecruiser) built by the Royal Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy) before World War I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I). The sole member of her class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_class), Queen Mary shared many features with the Lion-class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-class_battlecruiser) battlecruisers, including her eight 13.5-inch (343 mm) guns." http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/QueenMary.jpg/300px-QueenMary.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:QueenMary.jpg)http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Destruction_of_HMS_Queen_Mary.jpg/220px-Destruction_of_HMS_Queen_Mary.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Destruction_of_HMS_Queen_Mary.jpg) Hit by Seydlitz and Derfflinger fatally...20 survived of 1,286. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Queen_Mary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Queen_Mary)

[Jimbuna]

HMS Queen Mary:

http://www.naval-history.net/WW1Battle1605Jutland4.htm

[Aktungbby]

:up: TNX! Don't know why it's not in the first one! I poured over everything meticulously. @ OP MajorArtNZ: HMS Lion's Q turret blown partially off during the 'Run to the South' potion of the Jutland battle. Beatty's flagship put out of action but not sunk by multiple hits http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/HMSLiondamagetoQturret1916.jpg/1024px-HMSLiondamagetoQturret1916.jpgHms Lion- heavily damaged.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/HMS_Lion_hit_at_Jutland.jpgIMHO: SMS Derffinger is the vessel of interest -(pro-Brit that I am).:salute: Not only did she inflict damage on HMS Lion but sank HMS Queen Mary and HMS Invincible, with help, and she survived considerable damage herself in the process.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Bundesarchiv_Bild_134-B2100%2C_Panzerkreuzer_Derfflinger_-_Gefechtssch%C3%A4den.jpg/1024px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_134-B2100%2C_Panzerkreuzer_Derfflinger_-_Gefechtssch%C3%A4den.jpgDuring the course of the battle, Derfflinger was hit 17 times by heavy caliber shells including an Elizabeth class Battleship's shell!!! and nine times by secondary guns. Derfflinger fired 385 shells from her main battery, another 235 rounds from her secondary guns, and one torpedo. Her crew suffered 157 men killed and another 26 men wounded; this was the highest casualty rate on any ship not sunk during the battle. Because of her stalwart resistance at Jutland, the British nicknamed her "Iron Dog."[wiki] When you are nicknamed by the Royal Navy... those are battle honors indeed! SMS Derfflinger fires a full broadside http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9c/Derfflinger_firing_full_salvo.jpg/220px-Derfflinger_firing_full_salvo.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Derfflinger_firing_full_salvo.jpg)ps: pics enlarge http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/1053-imperial-germanys-sms-derfflinger/ (http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/1053-imperial-germanys-sms-derfflinger/)

[Eichhörnchen]

Very interesting account, Aktung...:salute:

[Aktungbby]

Very interesting account, Aktung...:salute:
Whatever 'rings yer bell" BBY! Worth a visit to the Outer Hebrides IMHO Isle of Eriskay-all that's left(salvaged) after her scuttling; re-raising; and scrapping...:up:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/SMS_Derfflinger_ship%27s_bell.JPG/640px-SMS_Derfflinger_ship%27s_bell.JPG
14:45 6/21/1919 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/SMS_Derfflinger_scuttled.jpg/220px-SMS_Derfflinger_scuttled.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SMS_Derfflinger_scuttled.jpg):Kaleun_Salute:

[MajorArtNZ]

Thanks everyone for all the information. While I have done lots of research on Jutland, and the other 1st world war naval engagements, imagery is surprisingly hard to come by. Clearly you are all well clued up on the ships, technical details etc, but has anyone ever seen good quality images of the wrecks themselves? I know it's pretty murky in the North sea, but surely there'd be something out there?

Also while I'm thinking about it.. did they ever find the wrecks of the HMS Monmouth and HMS Good Hope at Coronel? It feels like that is a forgotten battle sometimes..

Thanks again for all the help guys! It's much appreciated. :)

[MGR1]

Nobody's gone and looked for Good Hope and Monmouth, so they haven't been surveyed. From what I've read on Coronel I doubt that either wreck would be in good condition - Good Hope's forward magazine went up and the Nurnberg pummeled the Monmouth prior to the latter sinking.:hmmm:

As for the Jutland wrecks, there isn't much left of Indefatigable as the wreck was heavily salvaged sometime in the 50's. Queen Mary's in two halves and upside down whilst the bow of the Invincible is upside down whilst the stern is upright, but heavily collapsed. I haven't seen any good images of Defence, but from various sources the bow and stern are gone whilst the middle part of the ship is in reasonably good condition. Warrior doesn't seem to have been found whilst the Black Prince appears to be in very poor condition.

Aboukir, Hogue and Cressy no longer exist as they've been demolished in order to improve the channel into Ostend.

For the Dardanelles wrecks, Majestic has been very heavily salvaged whilst Triumph and Irresistible are upside down and in reasonably good condition.

Formidable is also upside down and split in two just forward of the bridge.

Mike.:)

[Aktungbby]

:sign_yeah:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innes_McCartney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innes_McCartney) A useful site perhaps for it's bibliography on WWI naval marine archaeology. Dr. Innes McCartney gets out there and finds these wrecks.:salute:

[MajorArtNZ]

Yeah, I was under the impression that nobody had gone to search for them. It would no doubt be massively expensive, and they would have a reasonably large area to search in at Coronel. It would make a good documentary coupled with the Falklands island battle that followed. Presumably nobody has found or knows the exact location of the Sharnhorst and Gneisenau?

I'll admit, things like salvaging wrecks kind of upsets me. Especially war graves. You would like to think they would just be left be, but guess that too much to ask sometimes. :/\\!!

I'm surprised that they demolished the wrecks of the Aboukir, Hogue and Cressy. When did that happen?

[Torplexed]

I'm surprised that they demolished the wrecks of the Aboukir, Hogue and Cressy. When did that happen?

2011, I believe. We had a thread about it a few years back....

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=191364

Needless to say, no one was particularly pleased.

[Aktungbby]

Presumably nobody has found or knows the exact location of the Sharnhorst and Gneisenau?

In September 2000, a joint expedition to find the sunken battleship conducted by the BBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC), NRK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Broadcasting_Corporation), and the Royal Norwegian Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Norwegian_Navy) began. The underwater survey vessel Sverdrup II, operated by the Norwegian Defence Research Establishment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Defence_Research_Establishment), was used to scan the sea floor. After locating a large submerged object, the research team then used the Royal Norwegian Navy's underwater recovery vessel HNoMS Tyr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNoMS_Tyr_(N50)) to examine the object visually. The wreck was positively identified by an ROV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remotely_operated_underwater_vehicle) on 10 September, which located armament consistent with that of Scharnhorst. The ship sank in approximately 290 m (950 ft) of water The hull lies upside down on the seabed, with debris, including the main mast and rangefinders, scattered around the wreck. Extensive damage from shellfire and torpedoes is evident; the bow was blown off, presumably from a magazine explosion in the forward turrets, and lies in a tangled mass of steel some distance from the rest of the hull. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/scharnhorst_01.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/scharnhorst_01.shtml) Gneisenau scuttled and raised in 1949 was scrapped> http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/gneisenau/gallery/pictures/gallgneisethe_end/gallgneisethe_end9.jpg<after raising. http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/gneisenau/gallery/gallgneisethe_end.html (http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/gneisenau/gallery/gallgneisethe_end.html)

[Torplexed]

I think MajorArtNZ may be referring to the World War One incarnation of the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau lost near the Falklands

http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2103/Versenkung_von_Scharnhorst_und_Gneisenau.JPG

[Aktungbby]

HUH! :oops::wah::O: ya mean they lost two apiece of these....that's no way to conquer the world BBY!:hmmm:

[Torplexed]

HUH! :oops::wah::O: ya mean they lost two apiece of these....that's no way to conquer the world BBY!:hmmm:


Well, I guess they were nicknamed Salmon & Gluckstein by the British for a reason. They traveled in a pack, smoked a lot, and were unhealthy for the user. :D

http://collections.richmondhistorycenter.com/media/IMG_2012/I_V_2012_04_174.jpg

[MajorArtNZ]

Wow, yeah it would appear that quite a bit of debate was generated from that. It's sad and unfortunate, but if the British were ok with selling them off for scrap, then that's their choice. To the majority of the population, they probably had never heard of the ships or the battle so it passed underneath their interest for there to be any debate about it.

Funny how a wreck such as the HMS Royal Oak is a protected grave where only RN divers can go, yet 3 armoured cruisers who in total suffered considerably more casualties can be sold off and scrapped.

You wonder what would happen if they sold the wreck of the HMS Hood..

Well at any rate, the purpose of all these questions and research is for my upcoming painting series, where I hope to raise a bit of awareness of these forgotten wrecks.

Yes, I was referring to the original Sharnhorst and Gneisenau, sunk by the HMS Invincible & Inflexible.

[MGR1]

I think any attempt to find the Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Leipzig and Nurnburg would be complicated by the continuing dispute over the Falkland Islands. To minimise any political issues it would be wise for any expedition to use an Argentinian port as a base, just to keep them happy. The German's themselves might also be a bit sticky about giving permission to conduct a search.:hmmm:

Also the conditions in that part of the world would be challenging, to say the least.

Mike.

[MajorArtNZ]

Yup, that all makes sense. Once you remove the historical significance, it all turns into a logistical and financial conundrum...

Maybe all the wrecks they haven't found should stay hidden. That way no one can salvage, pilfer, or sell them.

Thanks for your help Mike, and thanks everyone who has taken the time to post their advice. It's greatly appreciated. :)

[August]

This article has a pretty neat picture of a sunken aircraft carrier:
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/04/21/wwii-ship-used-for-atomic-bomb-tests-found-amazingly-intact/?intcmp=obinsite

[nikimcbee]

I forget, have they found the Hood wreckage?

[Aktungbby]

I forget, have they found the Hood wreckage? "Full Salvos Good Rapid"

yes. http://www.hmshood.com/hoodtoday/2001expedition/hood/wreckdebris2.htm (http://www.hmshood.com/hoodtoday/2001expedition/hood/wreckdebris2.htm) "Hood‍ '​s wreck lies on the seabed in pieces among two debris fields at a depth of about 2,800 metres (9,200 ft). The eastern field includes the small piece of the stern that survived the magazine explosion, as well as the surviving section of the bow and some smaller remains such as the propellers. The 4-inch fire-control director lies in the western debris field. The heavily armoured conning tower is located by itself a distance from the main wreck. The amidships section, the biggest part of the wreck to survive the explosions, lies inverted south of the eastern debris field in a large impact crater. The starboard side of the amidships section is missing down to the inner wall of the fuel tanks and the plates of the hull are curling outward; this has been interpreted as indicating the path of the explosion through the starboard fuel tanks. It is further supposed that the small debris fields are the fragments from the aft hull where the magazines and turrets were located, since that section of the hull was totally destroyed in the explosion. The fact that the bow section separated just forward of 'A' turret is suggestive that a secondary explosion might have occurred in this area. Other researchers have claimed that the final salvo fired by Hood was not a salvo at all, but flame from the forward magazine explosion, which gave the illusion of Hood firing for the last time. This damage, ahead of the armoured bulkhead, could have been implosion damage suffered while Hood sank, as a torpedo room that had been removed during one of her last refits approximates the site of the break. It was the opinion of Mearns and White who investigated the wreck that this was unlikely as the damage was far too limited in scale, nor could it account for the outwardly splayed plates also observed in that area. Bill Jurens points out that there was no magazine of any kind at the location of the break and that the location of the break just forward of the forward transverse armoured bulkhead suggests that the ship's structure failed there as a result of stresses inflicted when the bow was lifted into the vertical position by the sinking stern section. Furthermore, the current position of the plates at the edge of the break only reflects their last position, not the direction that they first moved. The forward section lies on its port side, with the amidships section keel up. The stern section rises from the seabed at an angle. This position shows the rudder locked into a 20° port turn, confirming that orders had been given (just prior to the aft magazines detonating) to change the ship's heading and bring the aft turrets 'X' and 'Y' to bear on the German ships."[wiki]
The best account with excellent diagrams of the battle IMHO; http://www.kbismarck.com/hood-sinking001.pdf (http://www.kbismarck.com/hood-sinking001.pdf)

[MajorArtNZ]

As promised, here is a WIP shot of my latest painting- "Nestor" Oil on panel 12" x 12".

You will probably notice that it is not quite complete yet. I have worked hard turning the background into an underwater wreck, but there needs to be much more work done on it.
So you can now see why I was after all that reference material from all these sunken warships. Hope it kind of makes sense...

http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag394/MajorArtNZ/J1%20WIP%20ps_zpsbgazx0vx.jpg (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/MajorArtNZ/media/J1%20WIP%20ps_zpsbgazx0vx.jpg.html)

[August]

No picture showing

[MajorArtNZ]

Oh not again! You can copy and paste the link from your upload in photobucket right?

[August]

There it is. Very nice!

[MajorArtNZ]

Thanks! :)

Still lots of work to do on it, and the photo doesn't quite do it justice, but you get the idea.

More to come..

[Eichhörnchen]

Given the level of detail it's hard to believe that's only 12X12". Great treatment of the drapery in particular, as always in your work; it looks very, very damp there... great painting and thanks for posting, buddy.

[Jimbuna]

Top drawer....awesome work :sunny:

[MajorArtNZ]

Cheers! Will post some more when I find time to make some more..

[CaptainRamius]

Don't know if anyone posted this already (too lazy) and I might be wrong, but if I recall correctly the Queen Mary was sunk by a U-boat? I think so.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Queen_Mary
That'll help.

[u crank]

From the link you posted.

.. but participated in the largest fleet action of the war, the Battle of Jutland in mid-1916. She was hit twice by the German battlecruiser Derfflinger during the early part of the battle and her magazines exploded shortly afterwards, sinking the ship.

[Aktungbby]

Don't know if anyone posted this already (too lazy) and I might be wrong, but if I recall correctly the Queen Mary was sunk by a U-boat? I think so.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Queen_Mary
That'll help.
NOPE: a badly designed 'battlecruiser conceptwise': "The smoke and fumes from these hits caused SMS Derfflinger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Derfflinger) to lose sight of Lion,(ADM Beatty's flagship) which had sheered out of line to starboard, and to switch her fire to Queen Mary, now visible to Derfflinger's gunnery officer as the second ship in the British line and therefore assumed to be Princess Royal, at 16:16. Queen Mary hit Seydlitz again at 16:17 and knocked out one gun of her secondary armament. In return, Queen Mary had been hit twice by Seydlitz before 16:21 with unknown effects, but the German battlecruiser hit the turret face of 'Q' turret at that time and knocked out the right-hand gun in the turret. By 16:25 the range was down to 14,400 yards (13,200 m), and Beatty turned two points to starboard to open the range again. This move came too late, however, for Queen Mary, as Derfflinger‍ '​s fire began to take effect, hitting her twice before 16:26. One shell hit forward and detonated one or both of the forward magazines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_(artillery)), which broke the ship in two near the foremast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foremast).(possibly the 4" magazine exploded first) Stationed inside 'Q' turret, Midshipman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midshipman) Jocelyn Latham Storey (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jocelyn_Latham_Storey&action=edit&redlink=1) survived and reported that there had been a large explosion forward which rocked the turret, breaking the left gun in half, the gun breech falling into the working chamber and the right gun coming off its trunnions. Cordite in the working chamber caught fire and produced poisonous fumes that asphyxiated some of the turret's crew. It is doubtful that an explosion forward could have done this, so 'Q' turret may have been struck by the second shell. A further explosion, possibly from shells breaking loose, shook the aft end of the ship as it began to roll over and sink. The battlecruiser behind her, HMS Tiger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Tiger_(1913)), was showered with debris from the explosion and forced to steer to port to avoid her remains. 1,266 crewmen were lost; eighteen survivors were picked up by the destroyers HMS Laurel (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=HMS_Laurel_(1913)&action=edit&redlink=1), HMS Petard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Petard_(1916)), and HMS Tipperary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Tipperary_(1915)), and two by the Germans.https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Destruction_of_HMS_Queen_Mary.jpg/220px-Destruction_of_HMS_Queen_Mary.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Destruction_of_HMS_Queen_Mary.jpg)[wiki]

[CaptainRamius]

From the link you posted.

Oh. Oops. Sorry about that then, everybody.

NOPE: a badly designed 'battlecruiser conceptwise': https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Destruction_of_HMS_Queen_Mary.jpg/220px-Destruction_of_HMS_Queen_Mary.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Destruction_of_HMS_Queen_Mary.jpg)[wiki]

Ok then. Sorry. :D