TMO 2.5 manual targeting informal poll

[pdiddy]

Just curious to see how many manual targeters use TMO regularly.

Ducimus himself used auto-targeting I believe.

Personally I find manual targeting with TMO exceedingly frustrating.

[les green01]

I am with OTC

[Longknife]

I am with OTC

Ditto :up:

[HertogJan]

Thritto :hmmm:

[SilentPrey]

OTC here as well.

[razark]

Manual targeting, TMO, no OTC.

[Pigboatcook]

TMO, RSRDC, manual targeting with the fleet dunce cap to prove it. It is a good thing my brother-in-law passes out the rearm fish in Midway.:woot:

[Captain Dave]

Manual targeting, TMO 2.2. I like this older version of TMO.

[merc4ulfate]

It is hard to miss using O'Kanes method. Under a 1000 yards lead by ten degrees and fire.

[TorpX]

Manual targeting with RFB. And yes, I get frustrated too.

AFAIK, TMO doesn't make it any easier or harder.



As far as frustration is concerned, manual targeting is supposed to be fairly difficult. We naturally want our torpedoes to hit the target, and with manual targeting, there is a good chance that won't happen.

You can think of the problem this way. There are two basic requirements for manual targeting:

1. Understanding the geometry involved for a 'firing solution'.

2. Obtaining accurate data to allow the first to be made a practical reality.

One needs a reasonable degree of ability in both of these, but even after the first is mastered, the second remains problematic. [I'm assuming here that one is not making use of the familiar game exploits that make things much easier.]

That real-life commanders found it difficult is evident, when one reads the statistics associated with the number of torpedoes fired, versus the number of hits obtained, or ships sunk.

[HertogJan]

Just a quick question Pdiddy.
Do you calculate target speed yourself or do you use the option on the TDC after two or more stadimeter readings?

[merc4ulfate]

I guestimate.

If I feel they are traveling more than 10 knots I will lead the target a few degrees more. I do not calculate mathematically anyway. Even when I am using radar or sonar bearings to fire I will only time a target for 60 seconds and estimate its speed then lead the target and fire.

[Pigboatcook]

You can think of the problem this way. There are two basic requirements for manual targeting:
1. Understanding the geometry involved for a 'firing solution'.

2. Obtaining accurate data to allow the first to be made a practical reality.



Yep, that's me! I get the mechanics but the accurate data, especially in seas that aren't flat, is my downfall. More often than not my fish are running aft of the target (O'kanes method). I'm positive it is in my input. Just need more practice I guess but love the challenge of it.

[les green01]

I use 3 different tools one the TDC,Soulution Solver and Tracking Party,for speed I use the watch method or match their speed with my speed and keep fine tuning it as I go if all three telling me the same thing then I fire last campaign I had probly 80 to 85% rates on hits use to had maybe 30% so I can live with 80% or even 70%

[adrians69]

TMO 2.5, no map contact updates & manual targeting. I get speed taking 2 range readings and plot on the map which also gives target course and from there you can work out AOB at your planned shoot bearing. I don't use PK, just set up the shoot bearing/range/speed etc and wait for my unfortunate prey to sail into my cross hair. In bad weather/rough seas etc. when the target cannot be seen I plot target course and range entirely with the hydrophone using the 4 bearings method.

[merc4ulfate]

"More often than not my fish are running aft of the target (O'kanes method)"

How do you miss aft?

I enjoy getting in close. My average firing range is 1000-1200 yards. You can do a few things to help yourself.

Have all your doors open
Fastest setting on the fish
Magnetic detonators
Let the target cross your bow or stern and fire when it is 15-10 degrees off 000 or 180.
Change your setting on the offset to retard or lead a few more degrees based on observed angle not actual angle. I do not have time for calculations because I'm in so close that I have to do the math subconsciously and fire. For instance I know a ship traveling at 10 knots and crossing my stern from port to starboard and greater than 90 degrees in it's course to mine will take longer to travel to 180 from 190 than if it's course had been perpendicular so I quickly retard or forward the angle of the fish with the offset to compensate a greater than 90 degree angle or less than 90 degree angle.

Last night I used this on a single column of heavy and light cruisers I stumble across.

They had three DD escorts and all of them to the rear of the column.

I was within 1200 yards of the lead cruiser and fired at the third cruiser first (2000 yards) then the first cruiser(1200 yards) then the second(800 yards). I scored hits on all of them and after going to flank and swinging around for a couple of more fish all three sank. I scored hits on two more but they managed to limp away and I had to dive because of the DD's. The DD's spent perhaps 30 minutes looking for me before rejoining the line. I was at 450 feet and they seemed to have lost me fairly quickly.

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[Pigboatcook]

How do you miss aft?

I enjoy getting in close. My average firing range is 1000-1200 yards. You can do a few things to help yourself.

Have all your doors open
Fastest setting on the fish
Magnetic detonators
Let the target cross your bow or stern and fire when it is 15-10 degrees off 000 or 180.

Thanks!

I'm usually pretty close, 1000-1400 yards and my fish don't always miss but a good bunch do go just aft of the target. By aft I mean mere yards. I always attributed it to bad data input although I am firing on the approach angle instead of the depart angle, unlike you. I'll give it a try with what you suggested. Mostly I'm early war so been shy of both fast and mags but will fire it all up again this evening and say...give it a shot! Thanks again.

[pdiddy]

Just a quick question Pdiddy.
Do you calculate target speed yourself or do you use the option on the TDC after two or more stadimeter readings?

I always calculate target speed (and course/aob) myself through tracking but check it using the option on the TDC (which through comparison also indicates the quality of my stadimeter range readings.) I.e, if the clock icon course/speed is close to my pre-calculated course/speed, that indicates my stadimeter ranges can be trusted.

AFAIK, TMO doesn't make it any easier or harder
I should have been more clear: I find it exceedingly frustrating with the ridiculously omnipotent (imo) AI in stock TMO! E.g. using your Ship Sprint Test, I start @2200 yards abeam the Fubuki bearing 360 with engines off at periscope depth. As soon as I raise my scope, (and I mean as soon as!) he spots me and it is over from there! (Fun to shoot off an auto-targeted torp (or three) but no time to gather data for a quality manual shot.

It is hard to miss using O'Kanes method. Under a 1000 yards lead by ten degrees and fire.

No disrespect meant here at all: I understand the so-called O'Kane method and is a wonderful concept (shooting 90 off to eliminate range errors.) It is perhaps one of the "drivers" in my golf bag of many other clubs. -And If it takes 400 yards for torpedos to arm, then shooting from the spot where the torpedo will travel 401 yards is the ideal firing range; "shooting big targets" to ensure a higher percentage of hits.

I say "so-called" because reading through O'Kane's book, he definitely used everything at his disposal for tracking and inputting accurate target data. As a former boss of mine said about a similar situation: to do otherwise would be like "delivering pizza in a Cadillac!" O'Kane even laments about missing due to inaccurate speed data by saying "firing just 24 minutes after first sighting was something akin to shooting from the hip." I think RockinRobbins linked O'Kane's name to what was essentially the Fast-90 technique used by SH3 players to "sell" it to SH4 players. More here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=995114&postcount=3). Wonderful technique for large Atlantic convoys in a boat without a PK. And largely adopted in SH4 due to the limitations of the (buggy) game with grossly inaccurate stadimeter readings prior to OTC. Anyway, O'Kane definitely did not just pull up to within 1000 yards and shoot 10 degrees prior.

I guess I like the tracking and hunting part of the game, plotting and messing with the dials and creating and refining a targeting solution until the moment of truth. Putting a torpedo exactly where I want it (e.g. at the stack, or under the main turret) is the best part of the game. The TMO uber AI sort of wrecks that for me. There seems to be a prevailing mindset on the forums that if you don't like the TMO AI, you will once you get better at evading. You can even use TMO with training wheels if the AI is too tough. I like pretty much everything about TMO except for the AI. If I still don't like the AI, I guess I never will. I was wondering if there was a silent majority out there that feels similarly.

[adrians69]

Yep, that's me! I get the mechanics but the accurate data, especially in seas that aren't flat, is my downfall. More often than not my fish are running aft of the target (O'kanes method). I'm positive it is in my input. Just need more practice I guess but love the challenge of it.
[/INDENT]

Do you know that each time you input any data into the TDC you have to click the red button twice for each entry? The first click updates the target plot and the second updates ownship solution.

[HertogJan]

I always calculate target speed (and course/aob) myself through tracking but check it using the option on the TDC (which through comparison also indicates the quality of my stadimeter range readings.) I.e, if the clock icon course/speed is close to my pre-calculated course/speed, that indicates my stadimeter ranges can be trusted.

I wouldn't use the 'Estimated target speed' button (little chrono. icon) on the TDC as it doesn't take averages into account.
This video more or less shows the flaw in it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shXw4RYlAxw&index=3&list=PLVGYaJkn6lL4T5d-fbTMYYzhIipimDymS



[EDIT]
I should have been more clear: I find it exceedingly frustrating with the ridiculously omnipotent (imo) AI in stock TMO! E.g. using your Ship Sprint Test, I start @2200 yards abeam the Fubuki bearing 360 with engines off at periscope depth. As soon as I raise my scope, (and I mean as soon as!) he spots me and it is over from there! (Fun to shoot off an auto-targeted torp (or three) but no time to gather data for a quality manual shot.

.......

I guess I like the tracking and hunting part of the game, plotting and messing with the dials and creating and refining a targeting solution until the moment of truth. Putting a torpedo exactly where I want it (e.g. at the stack, or under the main turret) is the best part of the game. The TMO uber AI sort of wrecks that for me. There seems to be a prevailing mindset on the forums that if you don't like the TMO AI, you will once you get better at evading. You can even use TMO with training wheels if the AI is too tough. I like pretty much everything about TMO except for the AI. If I still don't like the AI, I guess I never will. I was wondering if there was a silent majority out there that feels similarly.


This link is about just that altho it was about night surface attacks:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210786&highlight=Periscope

Take a look at post #113 & post #143 where they tested different way's of dealing with the issue.

[pdiddy]

I wouldn't use the 'Estimated target speed' button (little chrono. icon) on the TDC as it doesn't take averages into account.
This video more or less shows the flaw in it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shXw4RYlAxw&index=3&list=PLVGYaJkn6lL4T5d-fbTMYYzhIipimDymS

Thanks HertogJan! I understand the concepts presented by the video. That chrono button is useful though, in checking the accuracy of your stadimeter readings. So if you've determined target course to be 090 and speed 5 through tracking. And you use stadimeter readings in close to feed them to the TDC, and hit the chrono button and "the crew" tells you target course is 091, speed 5 knots, you know you had very good stadimeter readings. If they say 120 at 7 knots, you know stadimeter readings were bad (or the target zigged in front of you) and you better update the system another way.


This link is about just that altho it was about night surface attacks:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210786&highlight=Periscope

Take a look at post #113 & post #143 where they tested different way's of dealing with the issue.

Great thread. I've already tweaked the AI settings for myself for a more enjoyable experience.:D (I like messing with the game files almost as much as I like playing the game.)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was too cryptic in my original post. My supposition is that the uber difficult AI in TMO renders meaningful use of manual targeting impossible. Unless you use auto-targeting or the Fast-90 technique for every attack, I believe you are hosed playing TMO. I am interested in hearing otherwise.

[HertogJan]

Thanks HertogJan! I understand the concepts presented by the video. That chrono button is useful though, in checking the accuracy of your stadimeter readings.

That's just it... It isn't.
When you use the 3min or 6min method you'll have its speed and course, you do not need to verify it with the 'target speed calculator' after each stadimeter reading, it might give you a false speed indication.
I can understand you're running out of time due to this.... Trust your readings!!!! (you've drawn in on the map so you can verify everything on the fly)
If you're stadimeter readings are off by a 100yrds or 200yrds it doesn't matter, target speed and heading don't change.


I was too cryptic in my original post. My supposition is that the uber difficult AI in TMO renders meaningful use of manual targeting impossible. Unless you use auto-targeting or the Fast-90 technique for every attack, I believe you are hosed playing TMO. I am interested in hearing otherwise.

I start plotting its course the minute I get a sonar contact.. this also gives me my intercept course (the same way ColonelSanderLite does it in his 'lets play').
By the time they get in visual range I'll have a pretty good idea of its true heading and know its speed. As I'm already in position I can take very accurate readings, I turn on the 'postion keeper', start taking my first stadimeter reading around 5000yrds and simply press the send to TDC for range then speed (already turned the dial to target speed, just needed to send it) and last AoB (I know the first reading is not going to be accurate, who cares?!?).
I make a new range reading after every 10 degrees, the closer the target gets the more accurate it becomes... Like I said earlier, its speed and heading never changes (if it they do its because I've been spotted or they changed course, then I'll switch to my trusted hipshot).
It only gets tricky when they're getting within 2000yrds, I normally do my last stadimeter reading after the lead DD has passed my bow. One last check and off they go!

[pdiddy]

That's just it... It isn't.


Thank you HertogJan. I understand completely now.

[Pigboatcook]

Finally a good career with a good start. First thing I find out of Manila is the CA Maya. It took me several hours to work up a good firing position but she sits now on the bottom off Cam Ranh bay along with one of her escorts. Thanks for all the tips and encouragement to keep on trying.

[HertogJan]

Picboatcook :Kaleun_Cheers:

[les green01]

:yeah: