THE WAR ENDED & I'M A BIT DISAPPOINTED

[SeaviewSkipper]

Hi everyone. I just finished my first career and I'm a bit disappointed. I refitted at Guam with a few days left in the war and was on my way back to my home base of Freemantle. I sank 230,000 tons on this patrol. Suddenly, the game just stopped and told me the war was over. I got the "wonderful job" screens and my career was over.
I'm disappointed because I didn't get a summary or total of the medals I won or the tonnage I sank. Is this normal? I thought I could proceed back to base and see that information and save my career results, much as you can do between patrols when you're in your office.
If anyone can enlighten me I would appreciate it. Thanks. Jeff

[thegrindre]

Oh, wow, that's a bummer, Jeff. I'm not looking forward to that at all. There's gotta be more to it then that? :down:

I appreciate the warning... :huh:

Oh, BTW, is that MSTS Seaview?

:)

[Torplexed]

When this sim first came out, some expressed disappointment that you didn't see the flash and mushroom cloud from the atomic bombs being dropped at wars end if you were in the right spot off Japan. Me, I could do without the sudden tan. :sunny:

However, some kind of postwar fanfare and wrap-up would have been nice. Maybe there wasn't the budget for it. :hmmm:

[merc4ulfate]

Medals are for those who do not know how to do a good job. Those who do a good job know the value is in their men .... not what they wear on their chest.

[Cybermat47]

Medals are for those who do not know how to do a good job. Those who do a good job know the value is in their men .... not what they wear on their chest.

True... but it would still be good if you could see your total tonnage at the end of the career.

I can think of a way to mod that in (for all the games from III-V, seeing as they're the same underneath the graphics), but it would be very fiddly.

[SeaviewSkipper]

Oh, wow, that's a bummer, Jeff. I'm not looking forward to that at all. There's gotta be more to it then that? :down:

I appreciate the warning... :huh:

Oh, BTW, is that MSTS Seaview?

:)

MSTS? I'm not sure what that is. The reference is to Capt. Lee Crane, commander of the SSNR Seaview from Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.

Yeah, it was a bummer. Definitely a letdown. Thanks for your reply. :)

[SeaviewSkipper]

Medals are for those who do not know how to do a good job. Those who do a good job know the value is in their men .... not what they wear on their chest.

Well, that's a rather absurd, arrogant statement, and one I disagree with. I did a VERY good job during my 14 patrol career. I sank about a million tons of shipping-including three aircraft carriers and a battleship, sent probably 70,000 troops to see Davey Jones, shot down 80-90 planes, and only lost one man. I also successfully completed all but one of my patrol objectives. In addition, I never shot at junks, sampans, or fishing vessels because I consider that to be immoral. Those tiny vessels are defenseless and manned by poor civilians trying to eke-out a living from the sea and have nothing whatsoever to do with the war.

On the contrary, medals are given in official recognition and appreciation of the fact that you DID do a good job. It's just like getting perks, bonuses, and promotions in private industry. Would you be happy and satisfied if you worked diligently, honorably, and successfully for a company and never got a promotion or a raise? Of course not. Please be real.

[SeaviewSkipper]

When this sim first came out, some expressed disappointment that you didn't see the flash and mushroom cloud from the atomic bombs being dropped at wars end if you were in the right spot off Japan. Me, I could do without the sudden tan. :sunny:

However, some kind of postwar fanfare and wrap-up would have been nice. Maybe there wasn't the budget for it. :hmmm:

Yeah. A career summation would be desirable. It's a real shame there isn't one. I think it lessens the game experience.

[U505995]

Well, that's a rather absurd, arrogant statement, and one I disagree with. I did a VERY good job during my 14 patrol career. I sank about a million tons of shipping-including three aircraft carriers and a battleship, sent probably 70,000 troops to see Davey Jones, shot down 80-90 planes, and only lost one man. I also successfully completed all but one of my patrol objectives. In addition, I never shot at junks, sampans, or fishing vessels because I consider that to be immoral. Those tiny vessels are defenseless and manned by poor civilians trying to eke-out a living from the sea and have nothing whatsoever to do with the war.

On the contrary, medals are given in official recognition and appreciation of the fact that you DID do a good job. It's just like getting perks, bonuses, and promotions in private industry. Would you be happy and satisfied if you worked diligently, honorably, and successfully for a company and never got a promotion or a raise? Of course not. Please be real.
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/841/129/c39.png

LoL you call that a very good job? Anyone can pull that off playing easy mode on the stock game. Your accomplishments don't really amount to that much considering all the traffic in the stock game and unlimited fuel. You want a real challange download the tmo mod and play with some actual realism.

[suitednate]

Ok here's the real question....did any of your crew catch crabs during the war? I think the game models a "morality" penalty and this is simulated as a lack of end-game pomp and triumph?:hmm2:

[Longknife]

Sea Demon has a good point Seaview. On easy there are ships everywhere & racking up impressive tonnage is relatively easy. If you are enjoying yourself then all the better but if you really want to step into the shoes of the submariners of old then I suggest you crank up the realism & add some mods.

I presently use TMO & RSRD & plucking a single tanker out of a convoy & then successfully evading the merciless depth charging I find extremely satisfying.

It will require a greater level of commitment on your part but in return you will be rewarded with a greater sense of immersion & satisfaction from the sim. If you prefer to avoid the challenge then thats fine, to each his own but then please dont trumpet your tonnage as some significant success. It obvious that some will take umbrage at it, moreover the analogy could be made that you are in a Destroyer & the rest of us in a whale boat armed with only a 45.

[Cybermat47]

LoL you call that a very good job? Anyone can pull that off playing easy mode on the stock game. Your accomplishments don't really amount to that much considering all the traffic in the stock game and unlimited fuel. You want a real challange download the tmo mod and play with some actual realism.

Sea Demon has a good point Seaview. On easy there are ships everywhere & racking up impressive tonnage is relatively easy. If you are enjoying yourself then all the better but if you really want to step into the shoes of the submariners of old then I suggest you crank up the realism & add some mods.

I presently use TMO & RSRD & plucking a single tanker out of a convoy & then successfully evading the merciless depth charging I find extremely satisfying.


I don't think you guys understand what this thread is about. It's not about how good Seaview was, it's the fact that he feels that at the end of your career, you should get a summary of your career; something I agree with him on.

By the way, Sea Demon, when we say 'be more aggressive', we're talking about hunting enemy ships, not talking to people on the forum.

[james_nix]

Not quite the same but there is this cool tool. It edits saves, but the is another program called SH4 Report included that can produce a detailed report of your saves:


Kim Ronhof's Silent Hunter 4 Patrol Report Generator (version 5102) and Silent Hunter 4 Tools (Tbox)(version 2.0)

Tbox is a Single Patrol Generator for the dynamic American Career mode. It allows you to edit the dynamic career save file to change the patrol area (mission-objective file) you are assigned by the game, your boat's name, your name and rank, and your patrol start date. For those of you who are familiar with Hawk's Patrol Zone Selector for SHCE, Tbox accomplishes the same goal. The programs will install and run in Windows XP, Windows Vista, and Windows 7.

http://www.subsowespac.org/silent-hunter-4-mods.shtml

[Longknife]

I don't think you guys understand what this thread is about. It's not about how good Seaview was...

...you should get a summary of your career; something I agree with him on.

Indeed & I agree as well.

[Crannogman]

After war's end, I think the game should continue to simulate the return to civilian life. Mission: transit to position 37N 83W; conduct anti-coal operations until 10,000 tons have been accounted.

[TorpX]

My idea would be to have a vid sequence with a newspaper headline about V-J Day, and a little article related to US subs being sent home, most to be mothballed. Then your sub coming back under the Golden Gate Bridge, with fireworks, cheering crowds and banners around. Finally your service record, and decorations shown. Maybe fading out with that famous photo of the sailor kissing the girl in Times Square.

Does anyone know if anything like this could be modded?

[thegrindre]

Yuppers, TorpX. I agree with that kind of fanfare. It would be nice if it were possible. :yeah:

:)

[YonMaruIchi]

"If you made it to this screen you didn't live dangerously enough" :D

[SeaviewSkipper]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/841/129/c39.png

LoL you call that a very good job? Anyone can pull that off playing easy mode on the stock game. Your accomplishments don't really amount to that much considering all the traffic in the stock game and unlimited fuel. You want a real challange download the tmo mod and play with some actual realism.

It seems we have a lot of sanctimonious commenters here. Firstly, I don't play the game in "easy" mode. I play it at the "normal" setting. Secondly, I always use the "limited fuel" option, as well as "limited compressed air" and "realistic reload time".
SH4 is a game. The object is to have fun. Anyone who believes they are experiencing even a remotely close approximation of what it was really like to skipper a WWII fleet submarine, no matter what mods they use, is both naive and delusional.

[SeaviewSkipper]

My idea would be to have a vid sequence with a newspaper headline about V-J Day, and a little article related to US subs being sent home, most to be mothballed. Then your sub coming back under the Golden Gate Bridge, with fireworks, cheering crowds and banners around. Finally your service record, and decorations shown. Maybe fading out with that famous photo of the sailor kissing the girl in Times Square.

Does anyone know if anything like this could be modded?


That would be excellent. :)

[SeaviewSkipper]

Sea Demon has a good point Seaview. On easy there are ships everywhere & racking up impressive tonnage is relatively easy. If you are enjoying yourself then all the better but if you really want to step into the shoes of the submariners of old then I suggest you crank up the realism & add some mods.

I presently use TMO & RSRD & plucking a single tanker out of a convoy & then successfully evading the merciless depth charging I find extremely satisfying.

It will require a greater level of commitment on your part but in return you will be rewarded with a greater sense of immersion & satisfaction from the sim. If you prefer to avoid the challenge then thats fine, to each his own but then please dont trumpet your tonnage as some significant success. It obvious that some will take umbrage at it, moreover the analogy could be made that you are in a Destroyer & the rest of us in a whale boat armed with only a 45.

Please see my reply to "Sea Demon". I wasn't "trumpeting" anything. I was responding to a ridiculous comment by "merc4ulfate". To partially reiterate, SH4 is a GAME. It is, in no way, even remotely close to the real experience of skippering a fleet boat in WWII, no matter what mods you use. So, many of the pompous armchair captains I see commenting here need to calm down. Self-importance and being full of ones self is very unappealing.

[SeaviewSkipper]

I don't think you guys understand what this thread is about. It's not about how good Seaview was, it's the fact that he feels that at the end of your career, you should get a summary of your career; something I agree with him on.

By the way, Sea Demon, when we say 'be more aggressive', we're talking about hunting enemy ships, not talking to people on the forum.

Thanks. I appreciate your comments. The only reason I listed my "accomplishments" was to address an arrogant, ridiculous comment by "merc4ulfate". I'm surprised by the pompous attitude of many people here.

[SeaviewSkipper]

Not quite the same but there is this cool tool. It edits saves, but the is another program called SH4 Report included that can produce a detailed report of your saves:

That sounds interesting. Thanks.

[tomoose]

There is a bit of lunchbag letdown at the end of the war and a simple 'splash screen' with VJ-Day news would have been nice. A simple summary of your career and a "Capt soandso went on to a happy retirement/full career.....after the war.....":D

It also reminds me of how nice it would have been to have an SH4 version of SH3 Commander which was an excellent little addition to SH3.

I farted around with Visual Basic for a little while to try and do something similar but simply don't have enough experience to produce something worthwhile.

[Pigboatcook]

Would be nice to get a final mission to sail into Tokyo Bay for the ceremony, especially with as much iron as we all put on the bottom the sea.

[Sailor Steve]

It seems we have a lot of sanctimonious commenters here.
Not really. Being new, you weren't around for the UBISoft forums' "Million Tons Club". We had dozens of gamers bragging about tonnage which would have made real captains green with envy. It got so bad that when it started to spread here we let them know that this wasn't the same kind of forum. The members making the comments that offended you the most were around in those days and, while they may have overreacted, it was not without reason.

So, many of the pompous armchair captains I see commenting here need to calm down. Self-importance and being full of ones self is very unappealing.
What was pompous or self-important about the comments? From their point of view you were the one making the noise. Please don't get me wrong when I say that. Your point of view is perfectly valid, and the point you were making about being recognized for your accomplishments is a good one. The game should have a better ending. SH1 certainly did, and that was almost twenty years ago.

Thanks. I appreciate your comments. The only reason I listed my "accomplishments" was to address an arrogant, ridiculous comment by "merc4ulfate". I'm surprised by the pompous attitude of many people here.
I thought you listed your accomplishments before that comment, to illustrate the futility of the game not rewarding them.

As to the comments themselves, I didn't say anything at the time because they seemed to be jokes to me, more humorous than critical.

On the other hand I feel the same way when someone talks about millions of tons. You're right, it is just a game. "Reality" never enters the equation. "Realism", however, has nothing to do with reality. It involves how "real" we can make the game feel. When I'm playing SH3 or SH4 I tend to think of a twenty thousand ton patrol as a good one. I also tend to start rolling dice after my sixth patrol to see how soon I'm retired to a desk job.

I've been playing tabletop wargames for almost forty years and computer wargames for about thirty. I'm not a gamer, in that I don't play the latest, greatest games just because they are there. I'm a history buff, and a machinery buff, and I only play games that let me feel like I'm flying a plane or sailing a ship. One of the biggest arguments in wargaming, especially ship wargaming, is "realism" vs "gameplay". On the tabletop the more "realistic" you make a game the more difficult it becomes to play. And of course nothing can ever make it actually be real. In the place of "realism" I like to substitute the word "feel". Does it "feel" real? That's the real question. Those of us who lean toward wanting the game to "feel" real tend to get our backs up when someone else talks about just shooting stuff. We also find that in the atmosphere of people playing in the same room those two attitudes tend to grate on each other.

In the world of internet forums, where people can't see each others' faces, it takes on a whole different shape. I have to admit that at first sight your comments on tonnage also looked to me like bragging. I didn't comment because I didn't think it appropriate. I still don't.

I think that maybe the players who posted the rudest comments should apologize for overreacting. On the other hand from your reaction to those comments I think that perhaps it is you who needs to calm down. They were contentious, but knowing from their long-time posting habits I'm pretty sure that their responses were meant to be in the nature of poking fun rather than actual attacks.

We tend to be a friendly, fun forum. I can understand your feeling frustrated with the kind of comments you received. Again, I agree that the comments made weren't necessarily the best. That said, we try to avoid intentionally provoking words like "pompous", "arrogant" and "ridiculous" when referring to other members. Argument, debate and disagreement are welcome. Name-calling and direct insult are not.

[Schroeder]

My idea would be to have a vid sequence with a newspaper headline about V-J Day, and a little article related to US subs being sent home, most to be mothballed. Then your sub coming back under the Golden Gate Bridge, with fireworks, cheering crowds and banners around.
This is pretty much how SH 1 ended. I found the ending of SH IV to be a complete let down. They could have at least let me triumphantly return to my base instead of an instant end screen. That also would have allowed for some radio news about the end of the war. :-?



I presently use TMO & RSRD & plucking a single tanker out of a convoy & then successfully evading the merciless depth charging I find extremely satisfying.
I don't want to derail this but how do you even find IJN ships in TMO+RSRDC? I only encounter single merchants with pretty much no sign of any warships or convoys. In my last career I saw one light cruiser and that was it and I'm in late 1943 by now (ok, there were some patrol boats as harbor guards near enemy bases but those don't count).
There is pretty much no danger in the Pacific.:/\\!!

[captcrane]

Spoiler Alert! Cheese Wiz after 4yrs I am closing in on the end of the war! It does sound anticlimactic if there is no video or fanfare of any type

[Longknife]

@ Sailor Steve: Well said sir! :Kaleun_Cheers:

@ Schroeder: I feel your frustration & in truth I see less IJN that I think I should. On my 1st patrol I was 2 days out of Manila & came across a IJN Heavy Cruiser & 2 DD's. I was very proud of sinking that Cruiser :rock:
I mainly see single ships as well but have bumped into a number of convoys. I try to patrol the main shipping lanes & that's where I tend to find them. I seem to run into the IJN at odd/not anticipated locations. You could hear the leather in my office chair tear from my sphincter biting a hole in it when I stumbled onto a IJN carrier task force (2 flat tops & couldn't tell you how many other ships) off Java.
Also make sure you have the patch for RSRD that corrects dead spots.

[Raider M]

My idea would be to have a vid sequence with a newspaper headline about V-J Day, and a little article related to US subs being sent home, most to be mothballed. Then your sub coming back under the Golden Gate Bridge, with fireworks, cheering crowds and banners around. Finally your service record, and decorations shown. Maybe fading out with that famous photo of the sailor kissing the girl in Times Square.

Does anyone know if anything like this could be modded?


I was hoping for all of that too.

[Jax von May]

Good points.

I like the reference to a code of conduct. You rightly say that attacking civilians is immoral. It is also illegal, under international humanitarian law. Customary law, particularly at sea, provides for an obligation to protect and spare non-combatants, whether civilians or shipwrecked staff. Since 1949, the 2nd Geneva convention precisely regulates that.

However, a civilian ship (or anything, for that matter) which which contributes concretely to the war effort of the enemy loses its protected status and can be lawfully attacked.


Well, that's a rather absurd, arrogant statement, and one I disagree with. I did a VERY good job during my 14 patrol career. I sank about a million tons of shipping-including three aircraft carriers and a battleship, sent probably 70,000 troops to see Davey Jones, shot down 80-90 planes, and only lost one man. I also successfully completed all but one of my patrol objectives. In addition, I never shot at junks, sampans, or fishing vessels because I consider that to be immoral. Those tiny vessels are defenseless and manned by poor civilians trying to eke-out a living from the sea and have nothing whatsoever to do with the war.

On the contrary, medals are given in official recognition and appreciation of the fact that you DID do a good job. It's just like getting perks, bonuses, and promotions in private industry. Would you be happy and satisfied if you worked diligently, honorably, and successfully for a company and never got a promotion or a raise? Of course not. Please be real.

[Vonross]

Good points.

I like the reference to a code of conduct. You rightly say that attacking civilians is immoral. It is also illegal, under international humanitarian law. Customary law, particularly at sea, provides for an obligation to protect and spare non-combatants, whether civilians or shipwrecked staff. Since 1949, the 2nd Geneva convention precisely regulates that.

However, a civilian ship (or anything, for that matter) which which contributes concretely to the war effort of the enemy loses its protected status and can be lawfully attacked.


Ok so your a tree huger...lol The Japs came at us...If we did not win ...We would all be slaves now.....So kill them all as fast as you can. That type of thinking did what ? Now we drive Jap cars, use Jap electronics ....Hell they already have our jobs...now there buying up our landmarks...That,s what that type of thinking got us....What we needed back then was more Fat boys ...A lot more !

[Torplexed]

Ok so your a tree huger...lol The Japs came at us...If we did not win ...We would all be slaves now.....So kill them all as fast as you can. That type of thinking did what ? Now we drive Jap cars, use Jap electronics ....Hell they already have our jobs...now there buying up our landmarks...That,s what that type of thinking got us....What we needed back then was more Fat boys ...A lot more !

What is this? A rant from 1991? Most cars, electronics and exported jobs I see now days are South Korean or Chinese. I believe Japanese corporations ended up selling off most of the landmarks they bought up back in the go-go days of the 1980s. Mitsubishi, in particular took an extraordinary loss on the Rockefellar Center.

If you're hankering to see the Japanese suffer and brought low, I would think the liquidity trap of the last two decades would be enough. Not to mention Fukushima.

[Crannogman]

What is this? A rant from 1991? Most cars, electronics and exported jobs I see now days are South Korean or Chinese. I believe Japanese corporations ended up selling off most of the landmarks they bought up back in the go-go days of the 1980s. Mitsubishi, in particular took an extraordinary loss on the Rockefellar Center.

If you're hankering to see the Japanese suffer and brought low, I would think the liquidity trap of the last two decades would be enough. Not to mention Fukushima.

Preach.

The World Wars exemplify the maturation of Clausewitz's concept of total war - the mobilization of a whole people to the purpose of the state. Thus, the purpose of the state becomes the purpose of the people, and the means of production becomes the engine of war. There had always been an understanding that the easiest way to hurt an opponent without risking one's own force was to raid their sources of wealth and commerce. However, as total war converted private wealth and commerce to the service of the state, it also converted them to legitimate targets of war.

It's no stretch to consider fishing trawlers, tugboats, and sampans to be serving an island state at war, and they are totally legitimate wartime targets. Specifically targeting the crew, especially after their vessel is sunk, is more problematical; for instance, sinking the fishing boat while letting the crew survive actually accelerates the food shortage. Capturing (or killing, if he refuse surrender) a skilled airman/seaman/soldier etc has always been accepted as a part of war. In general, though, the survivors from craft you have destroyed have little immediate value to their state.

Although the game does not model it, you could definitely role-play attacks on unarmed ships as though giving fair warning. I usually encounter fishing trawlers while surface-cruising at night, without much warning before we spot each other. One could sail into the formation and not open fire until 30 minutes after contact. In certain areas, in certain conditions, one could even consider surfaced attacks on larger merchants, although sometimes that results in them turning tail and running.

PS- as it stands, enemy aircrew are unrescuable - does anyone know if this is mod-able?

[SquareCanine]

Ok so your a tree huger...lol ...
I guess what I would say about this is that most warring states and their leaders aren't warring because they want to kill people or make them suffer. You aren't attacking an enemy merchant ship because it has some people on it that need killing, but because you want to deny the enemy whatever supplies it may be carrying. The non-combatants on board may or may not be willing participants in the war effort, and killing people who can't defend themselves is considered wrong in much of the world. Even many soldiers have trouble killing their opponents. People aiming high has been found to be very widespread in various conflicts, and wartime propaganda often centers on dehumanizing the enemy because that's the only way many people will do anything but defend themselves.

There are a lot of things warring states can do to make war extra terrible for their enemies. Things like agreeing not to use chemical weapons, or not shoot defenceless people in cold blood are ways of making things just a little less horrible.


As to the topic of the thread, I would have liked some sort of cutscene, or even just a proper summary window as you would find in RTS games like Age of Kings. Maybe sometime I'll record my submarine returning to port and play that for myself if I survive the war.

[Jax von May]

That's not correct.

Wake up. The laws of war have - fortunately - changed since WW2.

The notion of 'total war' legitimizing attacks against the whole infrastructure is precisely what IHL, or LoAC (law of armed of armed conflicts), forbids.

An attack against civilians or civilian structures, such as a power plant, or a sewage system, or a factory, are grave breaches of the LoAC. Parties to a conflict must distinguish between combatants and non-combatants. If however it brings a concrete military advantage, and is done with A proportionate collateral damage, it is lawful.

This is the reality of the legal framework today, the kind that brings
you to court martial or in front of an national or international criminal court for war crime. The fact many do not respect it does not make it less referential. That's what distinguishes a moral and effective army from a genocidaire establishment or terrorists.

Is there anybody here who actually has served in a XXIst century conflict?

Preach.

The World Wars exemplify the maturation of Clausewitz's concept of total war - the mobilization of a whole people to the purpose of the state. Thus, the purpose of the state becomes the purpose of the people, and the means of production becomes the engine of war. There had always been an understanding that the easiest way to hurt an opponent without risking one's own force was to raid their sources of wealth and commerce. However, as total war converted private wealth and commerce to the service of the state, it also converted them to legitimate targets of war.

It's no stretch to consider fishing trawlers, tugboats, and sampans to be serving an island state at war, and they are totally legitimate wartime targets. Specifically targeting the crew, especially after their vessel is sunk, is more problematical; for instance, sinking the fishing boat while letting the crew survive actually accelerates the food shortage. Capturing (or killing, if he refuse surrender) a skilled airman/seaman/soldier etc has always been accepted as a part of war. In general, though, the survivors from craft you have destroyed have little immediate value to their state.