My Lai revisited.

[Bilge_Rat]

There was more to learn from the comprehensive statistics that Cong and the museum staff had compiled. The names and ages of the dead are engraved on a marble plaque that dominates one of the exhibit rooms. The museum’s count, no longer in dispute, is five hundred and four victims, from two hundred and forty-seven families. Twenty-four families were obliterated—–three generations murdered, with no survivors. Among the dead were a hundred and eighty-two women, seventeen of them pregnant. A hundred and seventy-three children were executed, including fifty-six infants. Sixty older men died. The museum’s accounting included another important fact: the victims of the massacre that day were not only in My Lai (also known as My Lai 4) but also in a sister settlement known to the Americans as My Khe 4. This settlement, a mile or so to the east, on the South China Sea, was assaulted by another contingent of U.S. soldiers, Bravo Company. The museum lists four hundred and seven victims in My Lai 4 and ninety-seven in My Khe 4.

The message was clear: what happened at My Lai 4 was not singular, not an aberration; it was replicated, in lesser numbers, by Bravo Company. Bravo was attached to the same unit—Task Force Barker—as Charlie Company. The assaults were by far the most important operation carried out that day by any combat unit in the Americal Division, which Task Force Barker was attached to. The division’s senior leadership, including its commander, Major General Samuel Koster, flew in and out of the area throughout the day to check its progress.

There was an ugly context to this. By 1967, the war was going badly in the South Vietnamese provinces of Quang Ngai, Quang Nam, and Quang Tri, which were known for their independence from the government in Saigon, and their support for the Vietcong and North Vietnam. Quang Tri was one of the most heavily bombed provinces in the country. American warplanes drenched all three provinces with defoliating chemicals, including Agent Orange.



http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/03/30/the-scene-of-the-crime

[Aktungbby]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2297899#post2297899 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2297899#post2297899) We're just not the good guys.:hmmm: Great article!

[August]

Of course in any group of humans there are going to be a few bad apples and the larger the group the more there will be of them, but compared to our enemies we were saints. Over 4000 civilians executed by the VC/NVA during the occupation of Hue alone.

[Nippelspanner]

...but compared to our enemies we were saints.
So... someone points the finger at you and all that crosses your mind is looking for someone who's worse?
By that logic, I can kill someone and call myself a saint as long as my next-door-neighbor kills 3 guys.

[CCIP]

That sort of logic can be used to justify anything. Then we just never learn.

[Oberon]

I suspect this thread will soon be receiving a visit from an M67... :hmmm:

[CCIP]

I suspect this thread will soon be receiving a visit from an M67... :hmmm:

Might as well cut to the chase and drop the Mark 47 :dead:

[August]

So... someone points the finger at you and all that crosses your mind is looking for someone who's worse?
By that logic, I can kill someone and call myself a saint as long as my next-door-neighbor kills 3 guys.

Pointing a finger at me? I was 7 years old during My Lai. Seems to me you Germans are quite vocal about your resentment at having people point fingers at you for what the nazis but somehow that's different right?

[Nippelspanner]

Pointing a finger at me? I was 7 years old during My Lai. Seems to me you Germans are quite vocal about your resentment at having people point fingers at you for what the nazis but somehow that's different right?
Oh boy... :doh:

...but compared to our enemies we were saints.

"We" includes "you", you know?
Even if you did not participate - you feel the need to 'defend', obviously.
But yeah, just throw some random nationalist crap at me rather than, for once, saying something reasonable, August.
As soon as you (or your holy country) is in question, you point at others.

GI's killed civilians in Nam -> but the Vietcong killed more!
GI's killed civilians in WW2 -> but the Nazis killed more!

Instead of debating a topic honestly by addressing the actual topic, you make it personal and feel 'offended' and race to Americas rescue by quickly pointing away from anything that doesn't suit your liking.

Also,
I couldn't care less for Germany, you know why?
Unlike you, I am no ignorant nationalist... excuse me... 'patriot'.

[Rockstar]

Hey its not how many you kill, its about how good you look doing it. :D

[Oberon]

Might as well cut to the chase and drop the Mark 47 :dead:

:yep: Although it's questionable whether a Mark 47 would be as deadly as this Skyraiders load-out:

http://www.largemodelassociation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Toilet.jpg

[Cybermat47]

Thank you for turning this thread into an argument, rather than a place to mourn innocent lives that were lost, August.

Also, seeing as Stalin killed more people than Hitler, by your logic, doesn't that mean that Hitler was the good guy on the Eastern Front?

[Nippelspanner]

Thank you for turning this thread into an argument, rather than a place to mourn innocent lives that were lost, August.

Also, seeing as Stalin killed more people than Hitler, by your logic, doesn't that mean that Hitler was the good guy on the Eastern Front?
Well, guess its my fault too.
I do that over and over again, I read posts from him and just... have to.
Though I should know better by now.

Apologies.

[Cybermat47]

Well, guess its my fault too.
I do that over and over again, I read posts from him and just... have to.
Though I should know better by now.

Apologies.

No need to apologise. You're not at fault here.

[August]

GI's killed civilians in Nam -> but the Vietcong killed more!
GI's killed civilians in WW2 -> but the Nazis killed more!
.

GI, VC even nazi = Human beings

GI's that murdered civilians = Prosecuted and imprisoned by their country
VC and nazi that murdered civilians = Rewarded and feted by their countries

Yeah I do make a distinction.

[Cybermat47]

GI, VC even nazi = Human beings

Yes... and?

GI's that murdered civilians = Prosecuted and imprisoned by their country
VC and nazi that murdered civilians = Rewarded and feted by their countries

Yeah I do make a distinction.

It doesn't matter how they're treated by their countries afterwards. What matters is that they committed war crimes in the first place.

And by the way, Nazis have been prosecuted and imprisoned in Germany for several decades now.

[August]

Yes... and?



It doesn't matter how they're treated by their countries afterwards. What matters is that they committed war crimes in the first place.

And by the way, Nazis have been prosecuted and imprisoned in Germany for several decades now.

My point is that any army ever created is going to have an element who will commit war crimes. The difference is how these actions are treated. Are they outlawed or are they encouraged? That is the measure of any human society.

So yeah I think the far more extensive and deliberate attacks upon civilians by the VC deserve mention in a discussion about My Lai.

[nikimcbee]

My point is that any army ever created is going to have an element who will commit war crimes. The difference is how these actions are treated. Are they outlawed or are they encouraged? That is the measure of any human society.

So yeah I think the far more extensive and deliberate attacks upon civilians by the VC deserve mention in a discussion about My Lai.

I found this interesting:
(warning, has graphic images.)
http://www.psywarrior.com/VietCongAtrocity.html

Another article.
http://uncensoredhistory.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-bad-bad-vietcong.html


War is hell.

[Cybermat47]

So yeah I think the far more extensive and deliberate attacks upon civilians by the VC deserve mention in a discussion about My Lai.

I agree.

But you seem to think that the OP was attacking America. He wasn't. He was condemning the men who carried out the My Lai massacre, who just happened to be American.

It doesn't matter what country you're from; what matters is what you've done.

[August]

But you seem to think that the OP was attacking America. He wasn't.

I apologize if it came off sounding that way to you but that was never my belief. I may not always agree with Bilge Rat but I have great respect for his opinions.

[Platapus]

Bonitas non est pessimis esse meliorem.
("To be good, it is not enough to be better than the worst.") —Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[August]

Bonitas non est pessimis esse meliorem.
("To be good, it is not enough to be better than the worst.") —Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Good doesn't mean perfect. Wars are fought by fallible human beings under enormous stress. There will always be this kind of thing to some degree.