Germanwings Airbus Crashed in France

[Schroeder]

Not much is known yet but it doesn't look good: (Sorry for that source but it was the only English speaking site I found that had the story so far)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germanwings-airbus-a320-crash-live-5390012

[Oberon]

The Beeb is breaking it now:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32030270

Live page:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/32030778

FR24 information on the aircraft:
http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/d-aipx/#5d42675

There are also reports that the aircraft put out a mayday signal at 09:47GMT and the weather in the area was not unusual, intermittant showers.

Pprune topic:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/558654-airbus-a320-crashed-southern-france.html

[Jimbuna]

Terribly tragic :nope:

[BossMark]

Very sad news indeed.

[CCIP]

Very sad and unfortunate indeed :(

Let's wait and see how the investigation plays out. So far, the most likely explanation is looking like sudden decompression, with crew becoming incapacitated after starting an emergency descent.

[Oberon]

An FDR has been recovered so hopefully we should have answers fairly soon.
Tragically it looks as though some German exchange students were on board the flight.

[Jimbuna]

An FDR has been recovered so hopefully we should have answers fairly soon.
Tragically it looks as though some German exchange students were on board the flight.

Plus two babies according to live news :nope:

[GoldenRivet]

This is at least the third accident that i am aware of wherein an A320 took a plunge of several thousand feet into terrain.

A French airline was conducting a functional check flight of an A320, the AOA vanes had frozen causing a conflict between the pilot and the computer during a check of the stall warning system. despite the best efforts of the pilot to recover, the aircraft plunged several thousand feet into the sea off the coast of France

Air Asia just a couple of months ago... unexplained plunge into the sea

and today, Germanwings, unexplained plunge into mountainous terrain

the question is, could these accidents be related, and more importantly, what is causing the Airbus A320 to pitch down and lawn dart into the earth?

[GoldenRivet]

Very sad and unfortunate indeed :(

Let's wait and see how the investigation plays out. So far, the most likely explanation is looking like sudden decompression, with crew becoming incapacitated after starting an emergency descent.

I dont see this as being the culrpit.

when decompression occurs, or the cabin pressurization light comes on, or there really is any indication that there is either a gradual or explosive decompression of the aircraft there are items that the flight crew will accomplish before doing anything else

1. Oxygen mask on (quick donning masks can go over an aviator's head and face in a matter of about 3 seconds)

2. Confirm flow

3. Establish communication with the other pilot

if these three things are done and you still pass out, God just had it in for you.

[Oberon]

This is at least the third accident that i am aware of wherein an A320 took a plunge of several thousand feet into terrain.

A French airline was conducting a functional check flight of an A320, the AOA vanes had frozen causing a conflict between the pilot and the computer during a check of the stall warning system. despite the best efforts of the pilot to recover, the aircraft plunged several thousand feet into the sea off the coast of France

Air Asia just a couple of months ago... unexplained plunge into the sea

and today, Germanwings, unexplained plunge into mountainous terrain

the question is, could these accidents be related, and more importantly, what is causing the Airbus A320 to pitch down and lawn dart into the earth?

I must confess, one of the first incidents that came to my mind was the Air France A330 crash and the cause of that. It could well be an occurrence of the autopilot receiving garbage and outputting garbage leading to the aircraft entering an unflyable state.
Still, at least in these incident the FDR was recovered swiftly and that should hopefully mean some more firm ideas of what caused this will come to light.

[CCIP]

Well, we don't know what happened in the cockpit. For all we know, they could have been contending with a windshield that blew in.

What doesn't make sense here is that we're not talking about a stall, a mid-air breakup, or a truly sudden plunge, going by the current available data. It does not look like a stall at all. There are no signs of a violent aircraft upset, like those you saw with the accidents that were mentioned. The descent at rates that were within a pretty normal range, so was the speed. On initiating descent, the aircraft apparently turned a few degrees, and then stayed on that heading all the way down. There doesn't with no apparent effort to regain control and according to official reports, no communication with ATC. There was no attempt to divert course either away from mountains, or towards one of the many available fields they could've landed on. So the crew had to be incapacitated, but the aircraft stayed within normal flight parameters.

Granted, I could see this being a case of, say, someone shooting the pilots dead and setting the AP to constant descent - but I do not see evidence of a stall in the ADS-B data (so no faulty sensors at play there).

http://i.imgur.com/34WEokB.jpg

The aircraft was basically turned a few degrees off course, then began descending at a steady 3500fpm average, accelerating only slightly. It's not consistent with stall, not consistent with engine-out, not consistent with loss of control. The only thing it's consistent with is a steady descent at idle throttle and at least some spoiler, with no other control input after it first started losing altitude. Decompression seems like the natural suspect.

[Oberon]

The debris seems pretty well scattered, more so than I would expect from an intact aircraft hitting the deck in a semi-controlled dive. Although to be fair, there are a multitude of random variables that could cause that state.
It is rather strange, but then again the first twenty-four hours of most aircraft crashes like this are full of questions and very little answers.
The lack of stall and the steady reduction of altitude is very strange though, pprune seem to be talking a fair bit about rapid de-pressurisation too, so it can't be ruled out, especially if something did not go correctly during the oxygen mask procedure.

[CCIP]

Well, actually if it were a stall or out of control/broken up in the air, it likely would've remained more intact after the crash, not less. From the terrain, I gather that it flew straight into the side of a granite mountain. By the indicators, looks like it was at some 380kt of ground speed. A big heavy object hitting a rock head-on is likely to get destroyed more thoroughly than through any other method. In fact, again, all the previous Airbus crashes mentioned produced far more intact pieces. Both Air France 447 and the recent Air Asia flights had largely-intact fuselage sections found on the bottom. Stalled aircraft will hit at far slower speeds, and the impact will often involve a larger surface area of the aircraft, limiting the damage.

(it's also a favourite argument of 9/11 conspiracy theorists, who will often take the thorough disintegration of the planes on head-on impact as evidence that "there was no planes, plane crashes don't look like this" etc.)

[Rockstar]

oh fer cryin out loud I never saw so much dancing around. Considering past world events it also quite is possible it was done deliberately.

[GoldenRivet]

Could be deliberate but to what end?

Suicide?

Terrorism?

If it was terror, and control of the aircraft was taken by a terrorist, why just point it at a mountain? Why not something more high profile.

I saw a few news blurbs: germanwings pilots refusing to fly A320, several flights cancelled.

Another said that the aircraft in question was grounded for more than an hour as mechanics worked to fix a 'minor' issue with the nose gear doors.

Not sure how accurate these reports are though.

[Torplexed]

oh fer cryin out loud I never saw so much dancing around. Considering past world events it also quite is possible it was done deliberately.

I find it hard to believe that a terrorist group wouldn't have taken credit by now. ISIS certainly never seems to be reticent about crowing over it's atrocities.

[Oberon]

Terrorism has already been ruled out by a few parties, it's probably the least likely of all the causes.

[Dowly]

The director general of aviation of Finnish Transport Safety Agency, Pekka Henttu, has told YLE (finnish BBC) that according to the information he has received, the CVR indicates both pilots were unconscious during the final 8 minutes.

[CCIP]

Now, obviously a lot of things could've incapacitated the pilots, so I'm not jumping the gun on anything, BUT - here's something to consider: again, the 9-minute descent where there's no evidence of any control inputs or heading changes, and the aircraft's vertical path is consistent with a fairly normal descent at idle thrust and spoilers out. The most similar suicide-by-pilot incident would be the recent LAM 470 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAM_Mozambique_Airlines_Flight_470) crash, but even there the aircraft was going down at rates in excess of 6,000fpm, not the 3,500fpm that you had here. And that one's still under investigation. PSA 1771 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1771), the most famous cockpit invasion/suicide incident, went supersonic before crashing, and all the 9/11 planes were going at substantially more erratic paths and extreme speeds/descent rates than this one.

I think it's just really unlikely that anything other than a decompression and incapacitated pilots would've done all these things to make this accident happen. If someone was trying to crash the plane, they probably wouldn't have been going down with spoilers out and at idle thrust. It's hard to see why that descent would've been initiated that way in the first place except a decompression. If something went wrong with the plane's controls, it's unlikely that the pilots would've kept silent - and unlikely that something would've gone so wrong as to completely prevent the pilots from making any input. Except a sudden loss of consciousness.
But let's wait for the investigation.

[GoldenRivet]

Lending credibility to the loss of consciousness due to lack of oxygen theory - is the 8 minutes of silence in the descent. familiar with airline procedures as i am, i find it difficult to believe that the pilots lost consciousness due to oxygen deprivation under normal decompression circumstances.

there are too many safe guards in place preventing it

Cabin altitude alert should have sounded at 10,000 feet cabin pressure altitude (or whatever the A320 preset is but 10K is pretty standard across the board) and unless both pilots were heavy smokers, 10,000 feet shouldnt have been much of a problem, even if they hadn't caught a slow decompression until the alarm went off they wouldnt have been so deprived of oxygen that they couldnt go "Oh crap, the cabin altitude is 10K and rising... better put on this oxygen mask." and then follow through with the action.

a rapid decompression would have been pretty unmistakable and obvious to the crew even without aural indications from the alerting system. so they would have likely acted immediately.

What this leaves is some fault with the oxygen system.

Interestingly enough the aircraft was grounded for a period of time just a few days before the accident in which work was done to the gear doors.

it just so happens that frequently, in large aircraft at least in my experience, that the landing gear bay for the nose gear is a hub of critical systems. I can't speak for the A320, but generally the nose gear bay is a junction of hydraulic and electric lines, home to reservoirs for fluid, houses hydraulic motors, and in some types even is the location where oxygen tanks are kept and or filled and emptied etc.

the reason this is of note, sometimes, maintenance procedures require certain systems to be disabled, removed or otherwise may be temporarily affected by a seemingly unrelated repair. if there are oxygen valves or bottles for example within or near the A320 nose gear bay and a maintenance function required any heated applications or welding or any other option which might prove to be a fire hazard, it would likely be required that systems related to oxygen storage or flow would have been disabled, removed or turned off to reduce the risk of fire or explosion. (if any such systems exist in the nose gear bay as they do in many large aircraft)

If thats the case, were these systems reactivated or otherwise returned to service? If not, perhaps in the event that the mechanics were focused on their task and after an hour of repairs buttoned everything up after forgetting to switch the oxygen back on. If the aircraft never experienced a decompression, this might have gone unnoticed for a very long time. but in the event of a decompression the flight crew would have donned their oxygen masks assuming all to be functioning normally until they simply passed out during the initial phase of their corrective descent.

at a cruise altitude of 38,000 feet, the flight crew would have had about 20 seconds "time of useful consciousness" ie - the time needed to continue taking coherent actions before becoming so loopy and incoherent that you cannot continue to function normally.

as the rule goes, aviate, navigate, communicate - in that order.

the crew would have first donned oxygen masks at the first indication of depressurization, this would have taken about 3-5 seconds assuming no snags. Time of useful consciousness is now about 15 seconds.

second, they would confirm communications established with the other pilot. by switching their microphone selector from boom to mask and saying something along the lines of "can you hear me?" - "yes i can, can you hear me?" this would have taken just a couple of more seconds. Time of useful consciousness now 10-12 seconds

third (actually simultaneously almost with item 2) they would have established the descent, and input any necessary navigational perameters into the FMS or autopilot for it to resume holding the course and descent they established leaving them more hands free to follow established check list procedures. this would have probably taken about 8 - 10 seconds. Time of useful consciousness is now about 1- 2 seconds remaining.

Finally they would have communicated their problem to ATC, cabin crew, run through emergency check lists etc.

at this point, the flight crew would have been so hypoxic that their minds could probably "see" or "imagine" themselves doing these things and taking corrective action - while in reality they would have sat there with their eyes rolling back in their heads before finally, completely losing consciousness which of course leads to the 8 minutes of silence on the CVR leading up to the point of impact.

for an airline crew to lose consciousness during an emergency procedure as basic as cabin depressurization - be it gradual or explosive - is almost unheard of these days unless there is some sort of failure on the part of their equipment.

If i were an accident investigator, i would be very interested in what the systems layout of the A320 are and if any of the maintenance from previous days might have affected or overlapped with the oxygen system.

[CCIP]

Agreed - I think all those systems should get looked at. I don't doubt that - as with pretty much any major accident - numerous things would've had to go very wrong for it to happen the way it did. Heads should roll at Lufthansa Technik if they messed up or overlooked the oxygen system during the previous check.

The other incident to bring in here as a possible precedent would be Helios 522 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522). It would be shocking if it was a non-sudden loss of consciousness, considering lessons should've been learned from that one, but that's also plausible.

[flostt]

imploding windscreen, killing pilots instantly?...then autopilot going into descent due to pressure loss in cockpit ?...no heading chamges, no radio contact...

[GoldenRivet]

imploding windscreen, killing pilots instantly?...then autopilot going into descent due to pressure loss in cockpit ?...no heading chamges, no radio contact...

Not likely. Windscreen blowing out would not have caused the autopilot to just decide to descend on its own accord.

the autopilot / FMS is a pretty stupid piece of equipment. It only knows what you tell it, and it only does what you physically program it to do.

[GoldenRivet]

Agreed - I think all those systems should get looked at. I don't doubt that - as with pretty much any major accident - numerous things would've had to go very wrong for it to happen the way it did. Heads should roll at Lufthansa Technik if they messed up or overlooked the oxygen system during the previous check.

The other incident to bring in here as a possible precedent would be Helios 522 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522). It would be shocking if it was a non-sudden loss of consciousness, considering lessons should've been learned from that one, but that's also plausible.

In regards to helios 522... i have long suspected when the mechanic was telling the pilot "Can you confirm the pressurization system is set to auto?" knew at that point exactly what the problem was and that he had oopsed the situation

[mapuc]

latest news about the airbus crash

The guy outside is knocking lightly on the door and there is no answer,” the investigator said. “And then he hits the door stronger and no answer. There is never an answer

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/europe/germanwings-airbus-crash.html?_r=0

Markus

[GoldenRivet]

I just read that. That makes this into a whole other ball of wax

[Oberon]

Indeed, that puts it down to one of three things.

1) Pilot incapacitation
2) Pilot Suicide
3) Pilot terrorism

3 is quite unlikely, 2 goes against the fairly steady rate of descent versus a nose dive, so out of the two man crew it's possible that the pilot had a Moorgate moment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorgate_tube_crash) and went into the deck. :hmmm:

[mapuc]

I just read that. That makes this into a whole other ball of wax

Makes one wonder.

Illness and fainted and /or died ?

Suicide ?

There's one thing I'm not going to use and that's terror.

Maybe there's some other cause to why

Markus

[Rockstar]

From CNN source.

• FBI agents based in France, Germany and Spain are looking through intelligence sources and cross-referencing the passenger manifest of Germanwings Flight 9525, two senior law enforcement officials said. So far, their search hasn't turned up anything that "stands out" or anything linking the passengers to criminal activity, according to one official.

[CCIP]

Wow, okay. If the pilot locked out story turns out true, then this may be not at all unlike the LAM 470 crash I mentioned from just over a year ago.

[Rockstar]

• Lufthansa CEO Carsten Spohr told reporters the company was struggling to understand how an airplane that “was in perfect technical condition” with two experienced pilots “was involved in such a terrible accident.” The crash of Germanwings Flight 9525 in the French Alps, he said, “represents the darkest hours in the 60-year history of our Lufthansa Group.”


Im still of the opinion this was a deliberate act. Simply because statistcally speaking they were in the safest portion of the flight when it went down.

[GoldenRivet]

Lufthansa indicates that it has no information to indicate one pilot was locked out of the cockpit

[Oberon]

It could well be a case of Chinese whispers, it wouldn't be the first time.

[d@rk51d3]

This is the media we're dealing with, after all.

[HunterICX]

This is the media we're dealing with, after all.

Aye, speculations, speculations.....I just would wait till the report of the investigation comes out.
All this media ''noise'' isn't really helping to focus on the facts they already gathered and shared.

[Oberon]

French investigators have gone for the co-pilot deliberately crashing the aircraft:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32063587

Whether it was suicide or terrorism is yet to be determined.
The co-pilots name has been released as Andreas Lubitz.
Now the witch-hunt shall commence, his family is not going to have a day of rest for months.

[Jimbuna]

French investigators have gone for the co-pilot deliberately crashing the aircraft:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32063587

Whether it was suicide or terrorism is yet to be determined.
The co-pilots name has been released as Andreas Lubitz.
Now the witch-hunt shall commence, his family is not going to have a day of rest for months.

Whatever the reason this is a most worrying dynamic, the only plus (if you can excuse the term) is that it looks like the plane was not at fault mechanically etc. but that will be of zero comfort to those who have lost their loved ones.

[Rockstar]

French investigators have gone for the co-pilot deliberately crashing the aircraft:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32063587

Whether it was suicide or terrorism is yet to be determined.
The co-pilots name has been released as Andreas Lubitz.
Now the witch-hunt shall commence, his family is not going to have a day of rest for months.


Could be a passenger was the targeted for assassination as well. Only the Shadow knows.

[Schroeder]

French investigators have gone for the co-pilot deliberately crashing the aircraft:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32063587

Whether it was suicide or terrorism is yet to be determined.
The co-pilots name has been released as Andreas Lubitz.
Now the witch-hunt shall commence, his family is not going to have a day of rest for months.
If that's true then I'm lost for words. :-?

[Oberon]

It could be one of four things really.

1) Terrorism - Not particularly likely as these sort of people tend to leave statements to be picked up after the incident, be it on a website or through mail or some such.
2) Murder/Suicide - The most likely, sadly, and it's not easy to find the evidence and reasoning for it. His life and communications are going to be poured over with a fine tooth comb, his family are going to face weeks, if not months of questioning from both authorities and the media.
3) Health issue - The second most likely, although it does not explain the locking himself into the cockpit. In regards to what kind of health issue would cause such a thing, I refer again to the Moorgate crash.
4) A combination of number 3 and an accidental locking of the door - Very unlikely, I don't know how cockpit doors work, whether it's possible to lock yourself out of the cockpit, I doubt it but if the pilot accidentally locked himself out and the co-pilot had a health problem then that could feasibly lead to a crash. However, it would have to be a combination of the two, and very unlikely.

Sadly, it does look very much like a murder/suicide, and there are no words that won't result in an infraction to describe the type of...thing...that would kill 149 innocent people just to end its own life. :nope:

[GoldenRivet]

It could be one of four things really.

2) Murder/Suicide - The most likely, sadly, and it's not easy to find the evidence and reasoning for it. His life and communications are going to be poured over with a fine tooth comb, his family are going to face weeks, if not months of questioning from both authorities and the media.

Sadly, it does look very much like a murder/suicide, and there are no words that won't result in an infraction to describe the type of...thing...that would kill 149 innocent people just to end its own life. :nope:

I have a hard time with the suicide thing. Having flown with a multitude of professional pilots i know the personality type as being more or less naturally positive, can-do, overcome adversity types of people.

and that's true, it would be a completely senseless thing to commit suicide in this way taking all those people who have nothing to do with your problem down with you.

4) A combination of number 3 and an accidental locking of the door - Very unlikely, I don't know how cockpit doors work, whether it's possible to lock yourself out of the cockpit, I doubt it but if the pilot accidentally locked himself out and the co-pilot had a health problem then that could feasibly lead to a crash. However, it would have to be a combination of the two, and very unlikely.

as for locking the door

the simplest of airline cockpit doors have a latch that must be actuated from the inside which - while possible to operate with one hand - generally requires use of both hands unless you are practiced at the art.

a small horizontal mechanism must be lifted while a second small vertical mechanism is pulled to the side thereby retracting a simple deadbolt for so long as these small latches are held in place. release them and the bolt engages. this mechanism cannot be operated from outside the door, the deadbolt is always out, unless the mechanisms are operated to retract it so that one can close the door.

when i flew airline trips, and one of us had to take a leak, it was mandatory that a flight attendant had to join us in the cockpit to preclude the possibility of the pilot remaining at the controls passing out, having a heart attack, or whatever - there would at least be a second set of hands to let the other pilot back in.

I have read in various articles that European operators do not require this policy of having a flight attendant enter the cockpit while the other pilot vacates it.

other aircraft have different door types. some require a pin code, but the pilot remaining within the cockpit can deny the pin code thereby locking others out - this is to serve as a measure against terrorists coercing the pin code out of a crew member and subsequently using it to gain entry.

I have heard of some doors requiring a key, but i have not personally seen these types.

Of interest to the investigation is the first officer who supposedly remained behind while the captain departed the cockpit. current reports indicate that his facebook account was deactivated/deleted within the past 2 days. it is not clear at the moment whether he deleted the page prior to the flight, or, if in the interest of privacy a family member deleted the account after the accident.

I have hit some low points in my life - but i cannot imagine a pilot driving his aircraft into the ground and selfishly taking all those people down with him. Its unreal.

when i was hired into the airline business we had to undergo psychological evaluation to get the final go ahead for hiring. while it was probably a good indicator of my psychological condition at the time of the interview / hiring process... the evaluation was never repeated. and psychological condition changes over time - sometimes over a short period of time - depending on what factors are at play in an individuals life.

[eddie]

Same reports about the co-pilot being heard here in the States too. Locked the pilot out and wouldn't let him back in. Pushed some kind of button that started the plane to descend. Pilot kept knocking and asking the copilot to open the door, but got very curt responses of "No!" I was just saddened to read this-

"Robin said just before the plane hit the mountain, the sounds of passengers screaming could be heard on the audio.
"I think the victims realized just at the last moment," he said."


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/alone-at-controls-co-pilot-sought-to-destroy-the-plane/ar-AAa1d9O

[GoldenRivet]

If it were a suicide - as it now appears likely - this is in line with a "high profile suicide" as i dont know what its official term is.

low profile suicides tend to be private affairs that take place in the back bedroom with a pistol to the head, or by poisoning or hanging one's self. the intent is to end either real or perceived suffering or intense depression leading to this very private act in which the individual committing suicide may not even be reported missing for some days

a high profile suicide on the other hand is a very public affair generally done to ensure that a particular person or group of people takes notice of it - or that it is done in such a way that it will be nearly impossible for a particular person or group of people not to notice it. ie killing yourself on national television, or in front of the person or group of people that hurt or wronged you. or in this case... driving a plane into a mountain.

was his lover aboard? and it was a murder suicide?

or did he kill himself in this high profile way - knowing that news of his act would inevitably reach whoever he felt had wronged him?

[Betonov]

Insurance ??

I remember watching air crash investigaton a few years ago when another pilot insured his family in case of his death and then crashed the plane.

[Nippelspanner]

Watching a German press conference at the moment and they indeed claim that the co-pilot crashed the plane on purpose.

The whole event was shocking enough, but this really adds to it.
Makes me think about what I said about the MH flight as well... I ruled suicide out since most suicidal people simply want to hurt/kill themselves, so rarely others.

My God, how desperate must one have to be to do this.

[GoldenRivet]

My God, how desperate must one have to be to do this.

full blown desperate

He probably got rejected by some girl or something and now he is really showing her

[Nippelspanner]

full blown desperate

He probably got rejected by some girl or something and now he is really showing her
I would be careful with remarks like that.
You obviously don't know how dark and desperate a human soul can become.
What he did was flat out murder and is inexcusable since he caused so much pain, no doubt.
But as I said, depressive and sick people see and feel things, you, I assume from that post, can't even imagine.

It is easy to make him look like a silly heart broken teenager,
but the world isn't black and white and surely not that simple,
I know that much.

Maybe they will find out about it during the investigation.

[GoldenRivet]

1. Don't presume I've not experienced dark and deeply trying times in my own life

2. Remarks like what? I was being serious. One would have to be at their very limit of desperation. And yes, when a young man commits suicide or murder suicide it's usually the result of his failures with his love interests.

I don't mean to make him sound like a 16 year old kid having a rough time nabbing a prom date if that's what you mean... But generally speaking, failures - real or perceived - with the opposite sex can result in some pretty bizarre behaviors in people

Edit

Especially considering that his Facebook profile was deleted on or about the day of the crash

If he was plagued by darkness... The source was probably social based on current evidence

[Tchocky]

I don't know how to feel about this.

On the one hand this is shocking, deeply upsetting, and a sad reminder of how life can run out of your hands in a second.

On the other hand on a normal day I'd be looking after in or around a hundred A320-family aircraft so I'm relieved that there's no mechanical reason this happened.

Ach.

[Nippelspanner]

1. Don't presume I've not experienced dark and deeply trying times in my own life

2. Remarks like what? I was being serious. One would have to be at their very limit of desperation. And yes, when a young man commits suicide or murder suicide it's usually the result of his failures with his love interests.

I don't mean to make him sound like a 16 year old kid having a rough time nabbing a prom date if that's what you mean... But generally speaking, failures - real or perceived - with the opposite sex can result in some pretty bizarre behaviors in people

Edit

Especially considering that his Facebook profile was deleted on or about the day of the crash

If he was plagued by darkness... The source was probably social based on current evidence
Then I simply misinterpreted your post, apologies! :salute:
(And I agree)

[Oberon]

All the victims facebook pages were taken down pending the investigation. All of them, including the co-pilots have been restored.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Andreas-Lubitz/1565862750338783?fref=ts

I wouldn't have said that was his...unless it's either been hacked or he's posting from beyond... :hmmm:

[VipertheSniper]

All the victims facebook pages were taken down pending the investigation. All of them, including the co-pilots have been restored.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Andreas-Lubitz/1565862750338783?fref=ts

they should've stayed down considering the vultures from Bild will probably scour those pages now for pictures of the victims and publish them without consent from the victims families.

[Nippelspanner]

Not his, definitely not his.
A fake, I assume... used as a news portal it seems.

They wouldn't allow that with his real profile since...it was his profile and he's dead. No one except family may be allowed to post there. Not sure about the rules in a case like this, but I don't see why strangers would have legal access to a profile like that.

[mapuc]

Here's a story from the real life

A young couple moved into an apartment on the ground floor in the same house where my Mom lived..

First time I saw them, was the day they moved in

A few weeks later I was told from my Mom who their were and why they had moved

They usually lived in a big house on the country side. Their eldest daughter had leukemia and had to go through treatment on a nearby hospital.

About 1 year later they lost her.

The story could have ended here, but more disaster would hit that family

About 1-1½ year later, the wife and their youngest daughter was killed in a car accident.

This was more than the husband could handle..he start to drink and died of this..he so to say drowned him self in alcohol-by drinking like a hole.

What has this story to do with this thread ?
I'll tell you, he was a pilot flying for the Swedish Linjeflyg.

I remembered him and his family, when I heard about this co-pilot.

I was also thinking-if he hadn't started to drink, would he been fit for flying again ?

Markus

[donna52522]

Not his, definitely not his.
A fake, I assume... used as a news portal it seems.

They wouldn't allow that with his real profile since...it was his profile and he's dead. No one except family may be allowed to post there. Not sure about the rules in a case like this, but I don't see why strangers would have legal access to a profile like that.


Removing deceased account:

Verified immediate family members may request the removal of a loved one’s account from Facebook in event of death.

Facebook doesn't do it automatically.

[Oberon]

Just looked at this video:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32073318

It's pretty damning, if the co-pilot was having a health issue he would not have had his finger holding the switch down to lock in order to prevent the pilot from opening the door using the emergency override code. Since the aircraft was in a fairly controlled descent then there wouldn't have been any turbulence or G-forces to disable the pilot, so he would have had the opportunity in those eight minutes to use the emergency code.

What a selfish.... I'll stop there.

EDIT: It's also been discovered that the autopilot was set from 38,000ft to 100ft:
http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat?p=64616

[GoldenRivet]

Removing deceased account:

Verified immediate family members may request the removal of a loved one’s account from Facebook in event of death.

Facebook doesn't do it automatically.

well then they got right on top of it if the family removed the account, according to the news article i read they would have deleted it immediately upon hearing of the crash.

according to reports the facebook page was deleted 2 days ago

now, is that old information or inaccurate? possibly

[CCIP]

Just looked at this video:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32073318

It's pretty damning, if the co-pilot was having a health issue he would not have had his finger holding the switch down to lock in order to prevent the pilot from opening the door using the emergency override code. Since the aircraft was in a fairly controlled descent then there wouldn't have been any turbulence or G-forces to disable the pilot, so he would have had the opportunity in those eight minutes to use the emergency code.

What a selfish.... I'll stop there.

EDIT: It's also been discovered that the autopilot was set from 38,000ft to 100ft:
http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat?p=64616

Oof, that last note in the video is going to lead to a lot of flak at Lufthansa. Hopefully the "two crew always in cockpit" rule is going to be introduced across the industry.

By the looks of it, we now have two nearly identical incidents in a year and a half, and pilot suicide still hasn't been definitively ruled out for MH370 either. I think the industry is going to have to face up to some questions here. I hope better mental healthcare for pilots and crew will be part of that equation.

[GoldenRivet]

MH370 could have been pilot suicide, but why take the airplane way the hell out to sea like that? why not just nose her on over and be done with it?


or better yet... why not just hang yourself in the privacy of your own home instead of taking a planeload of people down with you? :up:

Pilots have used their aircraft in the past to commit suicide, but generally they have been the only people aboard

[CCIP]

MH370 could have been pilot suicide, but why take the airplane way the hell out to sea like that? why not just nose her on over and be done with it?


or better yet... why not just hang yourself in the privacy of your own home instead of taking a planeload of people down with you? :up:

Pilots have used their aircraft in the past to commit suicide, but generally they have been the only people aboard

I'm just extrapolating of course, there's no real evidence to back that up either. Still, even two incidents like that in recent memory, it's a lot. Something certainly ought to change to prevent it from happening.

I think part of the tragedy is also the tarnishing of the good name of airline pilots as a profession. I'd hate it if all these recent incidents build up a public distrust and fear of what's otherwise one of the world's most responsible professions :nope:

[mapuc]

MH370 could have been pilot suicide, but why take the airplane way the hell out to sea like that? why not just nose her on over and be done with it?


or better yet... why not just hang yourself in the privacy of your own home instead of taking a planeload of people down with you? :up:

Pilots have used their aircraft in the past to commit suicide, but generally they have been the only people aboard

I seem to recall a pilot that committed suicide with his plane full with passengers somewhere in Indonesia, around the end of the 90's.

Edit:
Found the episode I was thinking of on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig9LE0Vp1YM

Markus

[CCIP]

That one's still controversial - there is a plausible alternate explanation to pilot suicide. It could have been the dreaded 737 uncommanded rudder deflection glitch that downed several planes in the early 90s.

The more famous case would be the Egyptair flight - where everyone but Egypt seems to agree it was suicide.

[Dowly]

There's also the Mosambique Airlines crash:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAM_Mozambique_Airlines_Flight_470

[Von Tonner]

What has surprised me regarding this co-pilot is the few amount of hours flying time under his belt. I think he had 630 hours all told. I don't know about other airlines but there is no way you could ever become a co pilot in the South African Airways without a minimum of 6,000 hours of flying time.

While I accept it was not his flying capabilities in question here, it would mean more time given to pick up any mental issues before been entrusted with a plane.

The other thing, if this was his intention on boarding because of whatever personal problems he had, how did he know the captain would even leave the cockpit - or was this maybe an opportunity that came his way and he seized the moment.

[XabbaRus]

You should visit the pprune forum. Huge thread there about it. The explanation for the low number of hours is due to demand in Europe for pilots but not enough pilots plus the training system. That's potato paraphrasing what I picked up elsewhere. But something just doesn't add up. Only based on the CVR and radar data the French prosecuted concluded it was suicide. The investigation is in is infancy and such a conclusion already accepted as fact. Could it be he was suffering from something that precluded his judgment, like a mini stroke, adjusted the height control by mistake and then succumbed. Or given he was a low hours pilot maybe he made the adjustment by mistake, then panicked and froze. Granted 8 minutes is a long time.

[AngusJS]

You should visit the pprune forum. Huge thread there about it. The explanation for the low number of hours is due to demand in Europe for pilots but not enough pilots plus the training system. That's potato paraphrasing what I picked up elsewhere. But something just doesn't add up. Only based on the CVR and radar data the French prosecuted concluded it was suicide. The investigation is in is infancy and such a conclusion already accepted as fact. Could it be he was suffering from something that precluded his judgment, like a mini stroke, adjusted the height control by mistake and then succumbed. Or given he was a low hours pilot maybe he made the adjustment by mistake, then panicked and froze. Granted 8 minutes is a long time.The thing is, though - the copilot had to hold down the lock button to prevent the captain from overriding the keypad lock on the door. So he must have been conscious.

[Gargamel]

'Significant discovery' at Alps pilot's home

2 hours ago
Police in Germany say they have made a significant discovery at one of the homes of Germanwings co-pilot Andreas Lubitz, according to media reports.
He apparently flew his airliner into a mountainside in the French Alps killing all 150 people on board.
The police did not give details of the find, but a number of his possessions, including a computer were taken away for analysis.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32081750

[XabbaRus]

I know, I'm just saying that it's so quickly decided to be murder/suicide. Yes the evidence is mounting but only the investigators know what has been discovered by police. For the rest of us we can only speculate as to why. I'd prefer to wait a bit more to find out why he did it.

[GoldenRivet]

What has surprised me regarding this co-pilot is the few amount of hours flying time under his belt. I think he had 630 hours all told.

I had to have about 3 times that just to get an interview here in the states.

I admit i too was surprised by the hours he had, but i had assumed this was relative to the demand in Europe for pilots. I wonder if their pay is crap too, otherwise... i could live in Germany :03:

After 4 and a half years in the FO seat, i was barely scraping in $300 a week, looking at another 5-7 years to upgrade to captain after over 15 years in the industry as a whole, i decided to stop wasting my time playing airplane pilot. i had financial goals in my mind which that career path was just unable to support at the time.

I have often wondered what a true shortage would do to pay scales.

on another note... I would wonder what was found on his computer, im sure it will be made public soon enough. My money is still on emails and messages to a failed love interest OR rejection of some form from his social group - a social group which he considered to be very important in defining himself.

but if this is the case, whoever he had a spat with - if any - has sure remained quiet about it

[Dowly]

True that nothing is known for certain until the investigation has been concluded, but it certainly doesnt look good.

Some info on the cockpit door lock from Royal Jordanian's A320 Operating Manual:

COCKPIT DOOR toggle switch

UNLOCK position
This position is used to enable the cabin crewmember to open the door.
The switch must be pulled and maintained in the unlock position until
the door is pushed open.

NORM position
All latches are locked, and EMERGENCY access is possible for the cabin crew.

LOCK position
Once the button has been moved to this position, the door is locked ;
emergency access, the buzzer, and the keypad are inhibited for a
preselected time (5 to 20 min).

[..]

In case of an electrical supply failure, the cockpit door is automatically unlocked, but remains closed.


I read somewhere that Germanwings has the door lock timer set to 5 minutes (unconfirmed). If so, the co-pilot must have flicked the switch at least twice during the descend.

[Von Tonner]

I had to have about 3 times that just to get an interview here in the states.

I admit i too was surprised by the hours he had, but i had assumed this was relative to the demand in Europe for pilots.

Yes, I have read too that he had so few hours due to the shortage of pilots. This makes my blood boil - so countries that should know better compromise the safety of the public in an industry or profession because they are experiencing a shortage in skilled personnel and believe the answer lies in the lowering of standards of training in order to fill these positions.

What next: if it takes 8 years to qualify to become a Dr would Germany drop this to 4 years if there was a shortage of Dr's? This type of thinking is criminal and completely absurd.

This madness (pun intended) does not even stop there. Apparently this guy took extended time off of training to go under one and a half years of psychiatric treatment.

"Lufthansa Chief Executive Carsten Spohr told a news conference on Thursday that Lubitz had taken a break during his training six years ago, but did not explain why and said he had passed all tests to be fit to fly."

It would really surprise me if the families who have lost loved ones through this do not sue the pants off of Lufthansa.

Ask yourself this one simple question as a passenger about to board. You become aware that the pilot spent a few years undergoing psychiatric treatment and he is 28 years old with 600 odd flying hours. Would you still board?

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f26/jat9/flight_zps6hv6d4et.png (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/jat9/media/flight_zps6hv6d4et.png.html)

http://ewn.co.za/2015/03/27/Germanwings-co-pilot-had-serious-depressive-episode

[Schroeder]

I admit i too was surprised by the hours he had, but i had assumed this was relative to the demand in Europe for pilots. I wonder if their pay is crap too, otherwise... i could live in Germany :03:

At Lufthansa they start with a yearly salary of 54.000€. With additional allowances this can get up to 73.000€
Some senior captains makes in excess of 250.000€ per year. But that's pretty extreme and I don''t know what the other airlines pay.
http://www.huffingtonpost.de/2014/02/28/verdient-lufthansa-pilot_n_4872272.html

[Oberon]

The problem is the demand for aircraft. Just kick up FR24 and see how many aircraft are in the air. It's the primary way for people to get anywhere further than a few hundred miles away. For business, for cargo, it's all done by aircraft because we want things, no, we need things right now.
You can't fly aircraft without trained pilots, but if you don't have enough trained pilots, what do you do? Reduce the number of aircraft, which will increase the price of tickets and drive customers to other companies (thanks capitalism) or reduce the amount of training needed in order to get more pilots.

Money talks, more than lives, more than health. :salute:

[Rockstar]

latest scuttlebutt indicates significant evidence has been found suggesting he was a Muslim convert.

[Tchocky]

Dare I ask for a source?

[Dowly]

Latest from BBC.

They (German prosecutors) said they had found torn-up sick notes in his homes, including one covering the day of the crash.

In their report, prosecutors in the city of Duesseldorf did not disclose the nature of Mr Lubitz's illness.

German media have said internal aviation authority documents suggest he suffered depression and required ongoing assessment.

Prosecutors said there was no evidence of a political or religious motive for his actions and no suicide note was found.
Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32087203

[Oberon]

Seems to center on 'Politically Incorrect' news:

http://www.pi-news.net/

(Note the link to the 'German Defence League' on their site)

According to this site anyway:
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/03/breaking-german-news-germanwings-airbus-co-pilot-was-muslim-convert/?PageSpeed=noscript

Make of that what you will. :03:

[Rockstar]

Latest from BBC.

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32087203


And everyone was assured both pilots were in the cockpit unconscience when the plane crashed too.


http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.1086/the-co-pilot-of-the-germanwings-airbus-was-a-convert-to-islam.html


Like I said its scuttlebutt to the best of my knowledge nothing so far has been confirmed. Which makes me wonder how bbc.com can be so sure? Like Obe-wan said: "make of that what you will." :)

[Tchocky]

Good Lord this PI article really lunges for the bottom of the barrel

But nothing will happen. One can bet that the apologists (media, politics, "Islamic Scholars") will agree to assign this an act of a "mentally unstable" man, and you can bet that now, once again the mantra of how supposedly peaceful Islam is will continue. And worse still, the attacks by the left against those who have always warned against Islam, will be angrier and merciless.Sounds familiar around here.

File under BS.

Which makes me wonder how bbc.com can be so sure?

Because they are more or less honest reporters who are reporting on exactly what the chief prosecutor said.


Whereas the ideologue over at PI can't help but cram his own religious biases into an article where they don't belong, and in fact is only writing about this in order to batter you over the head with politics. Note the difference in language between the two pieces.

[Von Tonner]

You can't fly aircraft without trained pilots, but if you don't have enough trained pilots, what do you do? Reduce the number of aircraft, which will increase the price of tickets and drive customers to other companies (thanks capitalism) or reduce the amount of training needed in order to get more pilots.

There are certain professions where simple "economics of return" do not and should not even come into consideration.

In South Africa we experienced a huge shortage of medical doctors due to many of them leaving the country once it became a democratic state in the fullest sense. The same can be said for construction engineers, air traffic controllers, etc.

These professions, and many others, are directly linked to the immediate safety of the public. South Africa, faced with these immediate shortages and with now a huge demand of these services did not lessen the time required to become a co-pilot or pilot; lessen the time required to become a medical Dr; lessen the requirements that were needed from a construction engineer to ensure the safety of a high rise building in its construction - or a air traffic controller at anyone of its international airports juggling increasing and demanding air traffic.

What it did do to its credit (and there very few credits sadly), was to maintain the standards required and sought rather to import the needed skills required.

If I am flying on an airplane with my family or even not, I would not want or expect a cheaper ticket at the direct cost to my safety. If I held that view then I do not want to buy a car with an airbag, enhanced breaking system, safety features etc - rather let me save my pennies and buy that old banger from the second hand car lot with the bald tires to get me from A to B - and put mine and my loved ones safety into the hands of the gods.

[Von Tonner]

I am absolutely shell shocked at such a display of sheer naked utter arrogance from the CEO of Lufthansa.

While other obviously more responsible airlines are immediately introducing steps and procedures to counter such possible happenings - and I quote a few of them:

"Airlines including Norwegian Air Shuttle, Britain's easyJet, Air Canada, Air New Zealand and Air Berlin all said within hours that they had introduced a requirement that two crew members be in the cockpit at all times.

Canada said it would immediately impose such a rule on all its airlines while those that already had such rules in place, including Ryanair, rushed to reassure customers."

And: "In light of this unfortunate incident, SAA has decided to reassess the protocols it has in place," said SAA spokesperson Tlali Tlali.

"We will not hesitate to effect changes to these protocols should the reassessment identify areas of vulnerability. These protocols remain a critical ingredient for security, safety and peace of mind for our customers during their travel on our flights. "

BUT this is the response from Lufthansa:

Among the companies that did not announce such a policy change was Germanwings parent Lufthansa, whose CEO Carsten Spohr said he believed it was unnecessary.

"I don't see any need to change our procedures here," Spohr told journalists. "It was a one-off case. But we will look at it with the various experts at Lufthansa and the authorities. We shouldn't lose ourselves in short-term measures."

http://traveller24.news24.com/News/Flights/Germanwings-crash-SAA-to-reasses-its-security-protocols-20150327

[Oberon]

There are certain professions where simple "economics of return" do not and should not even come into consideration.

I'm not going to disagree with you, but people who make lots of money from ferrying passengers and cargo by aircraft might well do so.
Good to see that many are implementing the two man rule though (I honestly thought it was a worldwide thing until this incident). Once upon a time it would have been un-necessary because there would have been at least three people in the cockpit, but you don't see the Flight Engineer so much any more, I guess his position has been taken over by computers. :hmmm:

[Nippelspanner]

Seems to center on 'Politically Incorrect' news:

Good Lord this PI article really lunges for the bottom of the barrel

FYI,
yes, PI is the bottom of the barrel.
You will find nothing but pseudo-intellectual-doomsdayprophet-scum there who bash against everything that remotely looks, sounds or smells 'foreign'.
The pages they link to and those who sponsor PI make that even more clear.

I was on that page a few times some years back and it's simply disgusting.
Stay off that site, or at least be aware what it is...

[Aktungbby]

Well, strictly as a an exercise in the universe-of-all-possibilities as with the EgyptAir disaster a few years back, on the off-chance that he might have had ties to radical Islam, I wonder what he was planning here.:hmmm:I don't trust news articles generally though-their first motive is to sell papers. http://universalfreepress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/628x471-300x200.jpg<Andreas Lubitz:timeout: On 9-11 all the 7 Bay Area bridges were placed under heavy military security-mostly National Guard. Street approaches under the footings were barricaded. EgyptAir flight 990 is never far from my mind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990) THis most recent crash may be a copy cat scenario. Those poor people. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Msr990-ntsb-f1.jpeg/800px-Msr990-ntsb-f1.jpeghttp://www.wcvb.com/news/alps-plane-crash-has-similarities-to-1999-egyptair-disaster/32025270 (http://www.wcvb.com/news/alps-plane-crash-has-similarities-to-1999-egyptair-disaster/32025270)

[Schroeder]

I am absolutely shell shocked at such a display of sheer naked utter arrogance from the CEO of Lufthansa.

Lufthansa has just joined the "2 people in the cockpit at all times" club.
And I think it's ok to first calm down and think about what to do rather then to do some knee jerk reaction.


latest scuttlebutt indicates significant evidence has been found suggesting he was a Muslim convert.
Not one respectable German news source says anything about him being a convert.
There is a lot wrong with Islam these days so one should have enough to build arguments against it without having to make stuff up. It speaks volumes about the source.

[Aktungbby]

respectable[/I] German news source says anything about him being a convert.
There is a lot wrong with Islam these days so one should have enough to build arguments against it without having to make stuff up. It speaks volumes about the source.I don't trust news articles generally though-their first motive is to sell papers.RGR that IMHO: had it been the case, some group would doubtless be claiming credit by now...I never thought there were disrespectable German news sources!:O:

[Schroeder]

RGR that IMHO: had it been the case, some group would doubtless be claiming credit by now...I never thought there were disrespectable German news sources!:O:
You never read the "Bild" then.:/\\!!

[Von Tonner]

Lufthansa has just joined the "2 people in the cockpit at all times" club.
And I think it's ok to first calm down and think about what to do rather then to do some knee jerk reaction.

"knee jerk reaction" - seriously Schroeder - it was the OBVIOUS and immediate response for any airliner to do given what happened to issue an immediate policy that there must be two personnel in the cockpit at any given time. Why make an issue of it?

Actually the real elephant in the room after this terrible tragedy and the complete nut this guy was is the following question: How many co-pilots are in the employ of Lufthansa with less than 600 flying hours.

[Schroeder]

I still don't see the problem with the 630 hours the guy had. There was nothing wrong with his ability to fly the aircraft. Why do you guys have an issue with that? Last time I checked German pilots were not considered badly trained or a danger to international aviation.

[GoldenRivet]

There is the mentality, among pilots at least here in the states that one must "pay his dues" and "earn his way" into flying large capacity passenger aircraft.

Many aviators, myself included, spent years flight instructing, flying power line patrol, hauling bank documents at night in crappy weather in small single engine aircraft loaded to gross weight. And at 500-600 hours experience it was the best work we could get.

Part 121 at the lowly regional levels airlines wont normally interview a pilot "off the street" unless he has 1000-1500 hours in his book. And even then, there is no promise he'll get hired.

At my current experience level of over 5000 hours, airlines like southwest, united, America. Etc would (and have) laughed at my resume giving me the "LOL thanks anyway, try again later" notice

And here you have this guy with 600 hours flight time driving an A320 into the hills... Allegedly on purpose because his life sucks or whatever.

There are plenty of skilled aviators (in the USA at least) with three times his experience that would PAY just to stand next to an A320

Screw him and his 600 hours

[Oberon]

http://i.imgur.com/BsIvEvd.jpg?1

[Von Tonner]

I still don't see the problem with the 630 hours the guy had. There was nothing wrong with his ability to fly the aircraft. Why do you guys have an issue with that? Last time I checked German pilots were not considered badly trained or a danger to international aviation.

Yes Schroeder one cannot argue with you regards his competency to fly in relation to his 630. He could have been a brilliant flyer - that is not the issue here.

Think about it. If an airline requires 6,000 hours before you will ever be considered to be a co-pilot or god forbid - left alone in the cockpit of a commercial airline flying through the Alps or wherever - do you not think that in that enormous amount of extra time of supervised flying hours that should there be a problem in your make-up it would or might come to light?

There is no gaurantee it would - but I would be very surprised if you would argue that you, Schroeder, would have no problem boarding a plane with a co-pilot with 600 odd hours of flying time as opposed to boarding one where the co-pilot has ten times that amount.

Regardless of all else - the two scenarios - 600 as opposed to 6,000 hours speaks volumes to the airline that upholds the later and sadly, very little to the airline quite happy with 600.

[Schroeder]

There is no gaurantee it would - but I would be very surprised if you would argue that you, Schroeder, would have no problem boarding a plane with a co-pilot with 600 odd hours of flying time as opposed to boarding one where the co-pilot has ten times that amount.

Actually I've boarded aircraft with pilots who had a lot less than 600 hours although that were just double seaters of course. I don't mind boarding any aircraft of any German airline as they have good safety records.

@GoldenRivet
I'm fairly certain that none of the jobs you described is available in Germany. I've never heard of an airborne power line check here or that banks fly their documents. I guess the country just isn't big enough for that. So where else would a young pilot get his hours?

Again, can anyone here show me were German pilots made inferior decisions out of inexperience compared to their foreign colleageus?

Tchocky, you work with them every day, do you consider them less "airworthy" than those of any other nation?

[v-i-c-]

I've never heard of an airborne power line check here

Power lines checks are done by helicopters in Germany - search for "Freileitung" and "Hubschrauber".

[Oberon]

Again, can anyone here show me were German pilots made inferior decisions out of inexperience compared to their foreign colleges?

15th August 1940

:O:

(I jest)

[v-i-c-]

At my current experience level of over 5000 hours, airlines like southwest, united, America. Etc would (and have) laughed at my resume giving me the "LOL thanks anyway, try again later" notice

And here you have this guy with 600 hours flight time driving an A320 into the hills... Allegedly on purpose because his life sucks or whatever.

There are plenty of skilled aviators (in the USA at least) with three times his experience that would PAY just to stand next to an A320


5000 hours on what type of aircraft?

I think the 630 hours they are talking about were made on that type of aircraft, at least the mentioned 6000 hours of the captain were clearly made "on the A320".

…with three times his experience that would PAY just to stand next to an A320

Airline Pilots must pay about 70,000 EUR for their training and qualification in Germany. When you passed the tests and can do your training directly at Lufthansa you owe them the money but in other flight academies you must pay it upfront: http://www.flightcrew-academy.com/index.php?id=14

Anyway this is what a pdf from Lufthansa says:

• Within approximately 29 to 33 months, you will be qualified in Bremen and in Phoenix/Arizona to become a Pilot.
• The training which is carried out both in German and English is divided into sixr phases and will result in the attaining of your Multicrew Pilot Licence (MPL).
• The training costs are completely pre-financed by Lufthansa. You need only cover your living and lodging costs in Bremen.
• If you receive a contract upon completing your training, you will then contribute to your qualification costs: your individual stake is 70,000.- Euros which you will pay off at a monthly rate beginning from 300.- Euros.

Requirements
• General or specialized university entrance qualification (advanced technical college qualification is not sufficient)
• National of an EU country and/or unlimited residence permit for Germany
• Holder of a passport without restrictions
• Height between 1.65 and 1.98 meters
• Vision: between +/- 5 diopter
• Fluent German and English language skills
• No record in the Central Register of Traffic Offenders pertaining to alcohol or drug consumption and/or amounting to more than 3 points
• Sense of responsibility, discipline, dependability, and team compatibility as well as convincing CV and high motivation
• Good physical constitution



After that 29-33 months the training continues with two years of familiarization for the type of aircraft:

…Doch die Zeit der Schulungen und des Trainings endet auch dann nicht. Noch gut zwei Jahre dauert die Einweisung auf einen speziellen Flugzeugtyp.

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/pilotenausbildung-die-goldenen-zeiten-sind-vorbei-a-679487.html

[GoldenRivet]

Again, can anyone here show me were German pilots made inferior decisions out of inexperience compared to their foreign colleges?



first - nobody is blaming inexperienced German pilots explicitly - simply inexperienced pilots in general.

I provide this definition...

Superior Pilot [Soup-Ear-Eiore Pile-it] Noun : A Pilot who uses his superior judgement to keep him out of situations requiring the use of his superior skills. :haha:

There are pilots with 600 different hours and there are pilots with the same hour 600 times over and over again.

are there incredibly skilled pilots in the sub thousand hour range? Yes

are there incredibly inferior pilots in the above 10,000 hour range? yes

a pilot's decision making and ability to react to unusual situations that one cannot necessarily expect to be trained on comes with experience in the air.

all things being equal, a pilot of 600 hours - like a driver at age 16 - does not necessarily posses the experience that a pilot at 6,000 hours would. a 600 hour wonder pilot might be incredibly skilled, he might be able to do loops around the good year blimp in a piper cub while pouring coffee back handed and maintaining positive one G throughout the maneuver... but does routinely demonstrating that ability make him qualified to shuttle paying passengers from one place to another?

as for lack of experience of low time aviators leading to accidents:

CrossAir Flight 3597 - The first officer had been out of flight school barely 18 months. The accident report indicated that one of the leading contributing factors to the accident was (1) the failure of First Officer Stefan Loehrer to speak out against the numerous and mounting violations and procedural omissions of the captain and (2) his failure to suggest corrective actions to the Pilot in Command.

One of the primary responsibilities of the First Officer is to do exactly that, a more experienced First Officer would have done more than simply ride the aircraft into the hillside.

God knows i personally have been put in that position before on 3 occasions... thankfully i had "overseeing and correcting superiors" safely tucked into my bag of tricks that i had earned over the last decade of flying.

[GoldenRivet]

5000 hours on what type of aircraft?

a mixture of aircraft, lets see, the prominent ones that come to mind are:

Cessna 150 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_150)
Cessna 152 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_152)
Cessna 170B (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_170)
Cessna 172 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_172)
Cessna 182 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_182)
Cessna 210 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_210)
Cessna Stationaire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_206)
Cessna 310 Twin Cessna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_310)
Beech Baron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beechcraft_Baron)
Beech Bonanza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beechcraft_Bonanza)
Piper PA-23 Apache/Aztek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-23)
Piper J3 Cub (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_J-3_Cub)
Piper PA-28 Cherokee/Warrior (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-28_Cherokee)
Piper PA-32-300 Cherokee Six (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-32)
Piper PA-34 Seneca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-34_Seneca)
Northrup Grumman AA-5A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_American_AA-5)
Cirrus SR22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_SR22)
Maule M-7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maule_M-7)

Beech King Air C-90 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beechcraft_King_Air)
Beech King Air 200 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beechcraft_King_Air)
Cessna Citation V (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_Citation_V)

Saab-340B (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_340) (the very one used in the picture actually)

over 50% of my total flying time is represented by FAR Part 121 operations out of LAX and DFW Aboard the SAAB 340B series.

At last tally i had experience in about 40+ types of aircraft, i have listed the most significant contributors to my hours here

EDIT:

Airline Pilots must pay about 70,000 EUR for their training and qualification in Germany. When you passed the tests and can do your training directly at Lufthansa you owe them the money but in other flight academies you must pay it upfront: http://www.flightcrew-academy.com/index.php?id=14



what you are describing here is called a "Fast-Track" Program in the United States, there are a number of "academies" which specialize in this fast track training. ie- getting the applicant the maximum licensed qualifications in the minimum time span

All ATPs

American Flyers

Embry-Riddle

Spartan

just to name a few - the problem with these schools - at least here in the states - is that you get out of the program with Private, Instrument, Commercial Single, Commercial Multi, Certified Flight instructor and Instrument instructor credentials - the problem is that the graduate now has all these credentials but only 400-500 hours flight experience.

with the present job environment there may be some regional carriers that will hire a 500 hour pilot if they have a "flow through agreement" with a specific school - but in the end this flow through agreement only guarantees the graduate an interview - nothing else. Now they are basically qualified for the lowest paying pilot positions in the country and sometimes a mountain of debt in the $80-100K range

if he or she really stands out as an exemplary pilot during the HR, technical and Simulator portions of the interview, they do stand a chance of being hired, especially if there is a need for a number of pilots

When i was a job seeking aviator looking for airline work... if you didnt have 1,000+ hours with at least 25-30% of your time being pilot in command of multi engine aircraft, your resume was placed in the circular file.

[Tchocky]

Tchocky, you work with them every day, do you consider them less "airworthy" than those of any other nation?

No no, there certainly are national characteristics that you get to realise over the frequency, but nobody gets into Class C FL245+ over northwestern Europe who doesn't know what they are doing.

Massive generalisation inbound. Certain airlines/nationalities have sloppy R/T procedure, things like that, but that's not what we're really talking about in this case today.

In fact I don't think the hours argument makes much sense here seeing as the captain had over 6,000 hours.

You can't fly without experience but the only way you get experience is by flying.

GR is making an awful lot of sense from my end, what he might be missing is the difference in general aviation cultures between Europe and the US. Hours are easier to come by in the USA, which may explain the bizarre new 1500-hour ruling for new pilots over there.

Bit tired, long day today as Schiphol had a two-hour power cut which caused exactly as much havoc as you might assume :).

Beer time.

[GoldenRivet]

You can't fly without experience but the only way you get experience is by flying.

its like one of my old instructors once told me

"you have a two paper bags as a new pilot; one is full to the brim labeled "luck", the other is empty labeled "experience"...now that you have your private license you must do the job of filling the experience bag, without emptying the luck bag"

when i had 400 - 500 hours my experience level made me much more qualified to teach fresh meat how to fly 172s and warriors and less qualified to zoom executives across the sky at mach .70 at FL410 - eventually my experience became such that i had the opportunity to do that. but the point is that experience has to be gained somewhere.

but yes... the mentality is different in Europe VS The USA

[Dowly]

@Von Tonner

The 6,000 flight hours you speak of for South African airlines is nonsense.

Here's what it says on SAA's site:

At least 1500 flying hours which includes a minimum of 200 hours on multi-engine aircraft except in certain circumstances as determined by the selection panel; the minimum threshold may be reduced provided that the candidate has appropriate experience
http://www.flysaa.com/za/en/SAA_Careers/RelatedLinks/cadet.html

[Von Tonner]

@Von Tonner

The 6,000 flight hours you speak of for South African airlines is nonsense

Dowly please compare apples with apples before you accuse someone of posting nonsense. We are talking here of a copilot of a Airbus - not the required flying hours of a junior cadet or junior 2nd officer entry level posted on a general info site of SAA.

Every single SAA spokesperson or representative from the South African Aviation pilots Association who I have heard discussing this on our TV networks have expressed amazement of the 600 odd flying hours this guy had in comparison to the FACT that to be a copilot on an Airbus flying under the livery of South African Airways 6,000 flying would be needed.

Are they all talking nonsense?

[GoldenRivet]

Airlines have their "published minimums" for flight crew experience like those found in their web page and their unpublished "competitive minimums" that spread through word if mouth.

While an airline might advertise a minimum if 2000 hours and 1000 multi turbine

The newest guy hired might have had 2-3 times that experience.

[Von Tonner]

Airlines have their "published minimums" for flight crew experience like those found in their web page and their unpublished "competitive minimums" that spread through word if mouth.

While an airline might advertise a minimum if 2000 hours and 1000 multi turbine

The newest guy hired might have had 2-3 times that experience.

That is my understanding as well GoldenRivet and added to that, if an airline such as SAA has more pilots than it needs it has the luxury of upping the ante on the requirements.

Also, not been in the flying business as you are am I correct on the following points.

The pecking order in many commercial airlines is cadet, 2nd officer, 1st officer, copilot, captain and lastly senior captain. Is this roughly correct?

Secondly, I think I recall reading on one aviation site that the max a pilot can rack up in a year on flying time is approx 1,000 hours given the restrictions of time off needed between flights. And I am assuming that time spent in a simulator does not count.

Am I on the money?

[v-i-c-]

Are they all talking nonsense?

The Lufthansa said on Thursday they have the best pilots of the world and the best pilot training. Are they all talking nonsense? :03:

[Von Tonner]

The Lufthansa said on Thursday they have the best pilots of the world and the best pilot training. Are they all talking nonsense? :03:

For any country to claim they have "the best in the world" is sheer nonsense. This is NOT a beauty contest or sports team winning the world cup for heavens sake.

[v-i-c-]

For any country to claim they have "the best in the world" is sheer nonsense. This is NOT a beauty contest or sports team winning the world cup for heavens sake.

But you saw the ":03:"?

[Jimbuna]

But you saw the ":03:"?

I did, which is why I didn't raise you a 'British Airways' :03:

[Von Tonner]

But you saw the ":03:"?

Apologies V-I-C no, overlooked it - I was just so taken back by the claim of Lufthansa:oops:

[eddie]

Man, the rumor mill has gone into over drive about the copilot, hasn't it!!! Stories all over the place on what was wrong with him to do such a thing. Too bad it is being done just to make headlines.

[Von Tonner]

Man, the rumor mill has gone into over drive about the copilot, hasn't it!!! Stories all over the place on what was wrong with him to do such a thing. Too bad it is being done just to make headlines.

Totally agree Eddie - but that is the media for you. I have read headlines he was "gay"... he was "jilted"...his ex girlfriend claiming he wanted his name remembered for ever, he knew the area well etc, etc.

He was a troubled individual obviously and what he did... is not shocking...its barbaric. I have the utmost respect for Lufthansa - no one can deny it is one of the top 10 airlines in the world by many standards - it saddens me though that it is prepared to compromise its proud record for expediency. This guy should never ever have been allowed alone in the cockpit of an airbus. Yes, in fairness to Lufthansa, he hid from them some of his problems, but they were certainly aware there were issues regarding him given his time out from training. Balloons should have gone up then.

[danasan]

Regarding the copilot's 630 hours...

Lufthansa-Chef Carsten Spohr told the audience during the press - conference on Thursday something like (my translation):

That guy was first hired as a flight attendant (cabin) and then, Sept. 2013, as a copilot on the A 320. Since then, he flew 630 hours on that type A 320.

So this figure has nothing to do with the total amount of hours he flew during his "career", nothing was said about that, nothing about other types either.

How will you get any experience on a type of airplane if not by actually flying it? Everybody will start with ZERO hours. Don't they?

Press conference, allmost all of it in German language (http://www.ardmediathek.de/tv/Tagesschau-extra/Pressekonferenz-von-Lufthansa-und-German/Das-Erste/Video?documentId=27312378&bcastId=6737788)

BTW: I do not have any sympathy with that copilot, but we have to have that staight.

[Tchocky]

it saddens me though that it is prepared to compromise its proud record for expediency.

You're going to have to explain that one. Where has this happened? Where has this been shown to happen?

This guy should never ever have been allowed alone in the cockpit of an airbus.

Everyone's a bloody expert all of a sudden.


Yes, in fairness to Lufthansa, he hid from them some of his problems, but they were certainly aware there were issues regarding him given his time out from training. Balloons should have gone up then.

He passed all required checks and exams. Obviously they were happy to have him in the cockpit.

[Nippelspanner]

Everyone's a bloody expert all of a sudden.
:yep:

[GoldenRivet]

The pecking order in many commercial airlines is cadet, 2nd officer, 1st officer, copilot, captain and lastly senior captain. Is this roughly correct?

I hope to provide a thorough answer to your question, as seniority and job titles like you mentioned above seem to confuse some folks:

I have been out of the business for a few years but it depends on the equipment. Most aircraft have had a "flight engineer" designed out of the cockpit.

When i was hired by the airline i flew for, on day one of class, seniority was established before anything else was done.

They had a list of the new employees, all of us sitting there, the instructor had a clip board with our names and birth dates and ages. The oldest pilot in the group was awarded the highest seniority, the youngest pilot was awarded the lowest seniority, all were incorporated into the master seniority list accordingly as new hire First Officers.

Immediately after establishing seniority he wrote on the dry erase board something like:

Base.......... equipment.........#needed
DFW....... Embraer 145.......... 5
LAX........ Embraer 145.......... 3
ORD........ CRJ..................... 2
LAX........ SAAB 340............. 4
DFW....... SAAB 340............. 2
SJU........ ATR72.................. 2

he called us by name in the order of our new found seniority and we picked which of the assignments we wanted. each time one was selected the number needed was modified counting down to zero, after that we were sent to indoctrination for several days before ultimately being split up into classes specific to our aircraft type.

when you are hired, you are a first officer, as seniority builds you can bid a captain seat and be awarded a spot as a captain as spots become available. Ideally this is 3-4 years and things are moving. when i was in the business it was about a decade to upgrade from FO to captain

the term "Senior Captain" or "Senior first officer" simply means they are high on the master seniority list. its not a whole new category all its own. I have not heard of Cadets and 2nd Officers etc funny though i do enjoy flight simulator X and there are a number of programs out there that allow you to manage your own company etc... they do use the terms cadet, second officer, etc though these are not real positions generally at least in the US

in the business, seniority is everything, it determines who gets what schedule, who gets approved for paid vacation days, who gets vacation on what month, who gets to promote to captain, who gets what base... everything

Secondly, I think I recall reading on one aviation site that the max a pilot can rack up in a year on flying time is approx 1,000 hours given the restrictions of time off needed between flights. And I am assuming that time spent in a simulator does not count.

Am I on the money?

There have been a number of rule changes over the past few years. At last i checked, 1,000 flying hours a year was the maximum. time in the sim doesnt count. You are restricted from flying for compensation without written authorization outside of your flying duties because hours flown for compensation (say, instructing on weekends) counts toward your 1000/yr - recreational flying, like hopping in the cub and going with a friend to a fly-in does not count toward your 1000/yr

this works out for guys who schedule intelligently. If you bid some 80-90 hour schedules each month and pick up overtime frequently... you could be at like 995 hours by say December 2nd... the airline now has a legal and contractual obligation to remove you from duty until January 1st to prevent a violation from occurring.

If you had a schedule of flying throughout December and you were removed for a legality, most airlines contracts require them to pay you for the flying you would have done had the legality not occurred.

its a sneaky way of getting 29 days paid vacation in December - and if you are really clever and bid a January schedule that has a "transition" of the first 4-5 days in January scheduled as "Off Days" well... now you not only have the last 29 days of 2014 off... you have the first 5 days of 2015 off too for a huge chunk of 34 days off.

its a lot of work to manipulate the system like that and many airlines will have an alert that pops up when a pilot gets close to like 800 hours... the schedulers have the pilot flagged in their system and can deny the pilot's request for overtime and place the open/available trips into a que to be assigned to a pilot sitting on reserve.

When i was sitting number one on the seniority list for my equipment in Dallas - my strategy was to routinely bid the same schedule as an instructor captain. The contract stipulated that if an instructor captain held a regular schedule with an FO for the month (thats me) and a new hire first officer had to take my place to train with the training captain... if the company had no assignments immediately available to reassign me to they were required to send me home with pay for the duration of time that i was "displaced" from my schedule. if there were a high a number of FOs fresh out of training that needed time on the line with a training captain... there might be 40 straight days off duty with pay.

[mapuc]

Having seen a lots of Air crash investigation episode-doesn't make me an expert-I can only read and hear what the real expert say, after they have investigated this crash.

I have however notice an increase of "rumours" about this young co-pilot.

I have also noticed some people suffering from paranoid(example from FB.
No Markus-the authorities will not tell us if he was a convert)

Just my saying and shouldn't we await the final report ?

Markus

[Nippelspanner]

Just my saying and shouldn't we await the final report ?

Markus
Can you please refrain from bringing sense and/or logic into this, yes?
Appreciated. :O:

I've seen links to FB pages, full with the most silly conspiracy theories already, hinting that our highness, Angie, is 'behind it' and what not.

Best one can do is turn off TV, radio, internet and not read newspapers for ~4 weeks.
At that point reports will cease (the people demand new bread and games by then, a silly air crash isn't interesting enough anymore after such a period of time) and the next one hears is probably something true, backed up by evidence.

Personally, I am quite annoyed how big the topic has become.
Yes, it is tragic.
No, it is nothing 'special' (if you do some research...)
And the topics being started around this incident range from knee-jerk/illogical nonsense reactions to flat out paranoia.

I read "people had a weird feeling boarding planes after the incident"
Why? Is it so likely that this, or any crash at all, will happen again!?
There is literally no reason or connection as to why one should worry to fly in general. If if would have been a technical problem, yes, sure - cause that might happen again before its fixed.
But something like this?
Putting every flight crew under general suspicion is the worst thing to do, I think.

Last but not least,
I feel very sorry for the people who lost their loved ones, it is beyond imagination and trying to imagine a situation like this makes my stomach turn around. I really just hope they will recover from this :-?

[Tchocky]

What he said.

[Rockstar]

People are going to have suspicions you cannot prevent that, it's a natural reaction when ones trust has been broken or violated. This crash was not caused by an act of god, failed part, weather or something else beyond the control of the flight crew. It was deliberate act carried out by a member of the crew. I think for those reasons this event will have an affect on the whole industry. Thankfully people will eventually move on from it and look once again at flying as one of the safest modes of transportation available.

The Lufthansa pilot that assured his passengers that he wants to go home to his family just as they all do is a great start. Those that believe people should just line up at the gate with smiles on their faces would make a great airline corporate executive more concerned about the bottomline.

[Dan D]

Aren*t those 150+ dead, victims of our terror paranoia policy which we have since 9/11? This would have not happened on an "old school" airplane where kids could visit the pilot*s cabin for show. Instead we have heavily fortified pilot cabin's where the chief pilot can't get back in -under some circumstances- when he goes for a pee. There is something wrong there.

[Oberon]

Aren*t those 150+ dead, victims of our terror paranoia policy which we have since 9/11? This would have not happened on an "old school" airplane where kids could visit the pilot*s cabin for show. Instead we have heavily fortified pilot cabin's where the chief pilot can't get back in -under some circumstances- when he goes for a pee. There is something wrong there.

Catch-22. There are, I believe anyway, more terror related incidents with aircraft then there are suicide ones. Pilot murder/suicides have happened before 9/11 though. If they are a victim of anything, it is perhaps an overreliance on technology and the reduction of the number of crewmembers on the flight-deck at any one time. Back when there was a flight engineer this would have been immaterial since there would have been another person in the cockpit, but there you go. It's sad, but most safety measures come into place post-disaster, so hopefully these peoples deaths were not in vain.

[Nippelspanner]

Apparently, a passenger of the flight made a video - of the crash - with his cellphone.
A French reporter claims to have seen the video (http://www.msn.com/en-us/video/wonder/french-reporter-says-hes-seen-germanwings-video/vp-AAakpeY) and has no doubt it is authentic.
What he describes to have seen or rather heard in the video, is gut-wrenching.

I have no reason not to believe him.

[Jimbuna]

Most disturbing.

[mapuc]

Apparently, a passenger of the flight made a video - of the crash - with his cellphone.
A French reporter claims to have seen the video (http://www.msn.com/en-us/video/wonder/french-reporter-says-hes-seen-germanwings-video/vp-AAakpeY) and has no doubt it is authentic.
What he describes to have seen or rather heard in the video, is gut-wrenching.

I have no reason not to believe him.

Interesting video and I say the same as you - have no reason

Then I read this on a Danish news side

(used google translate)

"No video from the plane has yet been published. Investigators have said that there has not yet been found video recordings from the plane"

This sentence is from an article in the Danish online newspaper EB

Markus

[HunterICX]

So does our national news broadcast channel, they are questioning the genuinity of the claimed footage as well. Rescue workers and the local authorities on the crash site have reported to haven't found anything (yet) on the mobile phones they have recovered and why would a rescue worker deliver that to some tabloids instead of the authorities to help the investigation?

So untill they show the footage they claim to have in their possesion I am questioning if the guy is speaking the truth.

[danasan]

The German Boulevard press would pay almost any money for a video or item like that, especially the one which claims to have seen the video (Bildzeitung).

Remember the Hitler Diaries (another print media involved) which did cost a LOT!

[Von Tonner]

Paris - The second black box recovered from the wreckage of Germanwings flight 4U9525 shows that the co-pilot accelerated the aircraft as it descended into the Alps, French aviation officials said Friday.

French aviation authority BEA also said that the flight data recorder confirms that Andreas Lubitz changed the autopilot to lower the plane to an altitude of 100 feet, a figure that experts have speculated was likely the lowest that it could have been set at.

The changes, which caused the Airbus A320's demise and killed all 150 people on board, have opened a raft of investigations into the culpability of Lubitz.

According to audio recordings, Lubitz locked the cockpit door and was alone while changing the flight controls. German prosecutors have revealed that Lubitz searched for suicide methods and cockpit locking mechanisms online during the week prior to the fatal crash.

http://www.news24.com/World/News/Germanwings-co-pilot-accelerated-aircraft-on-descent-20150403?utm_source=news24-pm-newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletters

[Von Tonner]

Not looking good for Lufthansa at all.

Berlin - Germany's aviation regulator says it had no previous knowledge of Germanwings co-pilot Andreas Lubitz's struggle with severe depression before the disaster in the French Alps, says a media report.

The Federal Aviation Office (LBA) told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper that parent company Lufthansa had given it "no information about the medical background" of Lubitz, who prosecutors allege deliberately crashed the plane, killing all 150 people on board.

And more damning.

In particular, Lufthansa physicians who examined Lubitz did not make the authorities aware of his "earlier phase of serious depression", the report quoted the LBA, which issues pilots' licences, as saying.

It said it first learned of Lubitz's mental health problems when it gained access to his file at Lufthansa's Aeromedical Centre on 27 March, three days after the crash.

If, after the investigation has been completed, the report finds Lufthansa withheld crucial information pertaining to the mental health of Lubitz from the German aviation authorities then I would imagine there will be serious repercussions for the airline - legal, as well as compensation claims, even with possible charges of criminality laid at some personnel.

http://www.news24.com/World/News/Regulator-didnt-know-of-Lubitzs-depression-20150405?utm_source=news24-pm-newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletters