View Full Version : Glad to see majority of Israeli voters...
Bubblehead1980
03-18-15, 09:11 PM
have a brain and did not fall for the outside interference pouring in against Netanyahu, especially from the Obama Admin. Hopefully America will follow suit next year and elected a great leader who will stand up to our common enemies.
This lady owned them lol some of you may enjoy this.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finkelstein/2015/03/18/gibbs-blazes-holmes-obama-ire-toward-bibi-silliest-thing-ive-heard?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=marketing&utm_term=facebook&utm_content=facebook&utm_campaign=holmes-obama-netanyahu
Side note. I plan to visit Israel this summer, can not wait. Anyone on here live there? Visited before?
Webster
03-18-15, 09:23 PM
well since there are more illegal immigrants voting in elections now then American citizens, and since half of those are mindless college kids who have been brainwashed and propagandized by uber liberal America hating socialist academics to believe our country is evil and the cause of all problems in the world, plus less then half the conservatives in this country bother to even vote anymore, what do you think is going to happen?
Adolf Hitler could get elected if he registered as a democrat and the press would make him sound like the answers to every ones problems.
hell the republican party is ruled and being led by liberal socialist rhino republicans that are in lock step with socialist democrats, any conservative republicans are chastised and kept out of any positions of power or decision making. step one is getting rid of the rhino republican hypocrite John Boehner who is really just a socialist democrat who gave Obama everything he ever asked for as long as John Boehner could be the one to take credit for it.
make no mistake about it, until the non-republican republicans can be run out of office, which is at least roughly 60% of the republican party, there will never be a conservative agenda being put forth to bring this country back from its socialist Marxist path it is on.
AngusJS
03-18-15, 10:26 PM
have a brain and did not fall for the outside interference pouring in against Netanyahu, especially from the Obama Admin. Hopefully America will follow suit next year and elected a great leader who will stand up to our common enemies.Outside influence?
Umm... did Obama speak before the Knesset? No, I think it was the other way around. But I guess that kind of outside influence is A-OK.
And yes, what a great man Netanyahu is. I mean, he must be great to claim to speak for all Jews, right?
I hope he holds to his promise to keep building illegal settlements, and to never allow a Palestinian state. And I really hope he holds on to his Foreign Minister (who doesn't even live in Israel, but in a settlement) who said that "disloyal" Israeli citizens should be beheaded.
Truly, what a wonderful ally we have in the Israeli government.
AngusJS
03-18-15, 10:33 PM
well since there are more illegal immigrants voting in elections now then American citizens, and since half of those are mindless college kids who have been brainwashed and propagandized by uber liberal America hating socialist academics to believe our country is evil and the cause of all problems in the world, plus less then half the conservatives in this country bother to even vote anymore, what do you think is going to happen?:rotfl2:
Please show me the stats that show that illegal immigrants outnumber citizens when voting.
make no mistake about it, until the non-republican republicans can be run out of office, which is at least roughly 60% of the republican party, there will never be a conservative agenda being put forth to bring this country back from its socialist Marxist path it is on.:rotfl2: Oh boy, we're on a socialist Marxist path! When can we expect the workers to seize the means of production?
james_nix
03-18-15, 11:34 PM
90 percent of Bibi's reelection money came from the USA. Talk about outside influence!
http://www.timesofisrael.com/over-90-of-netanyahu-reelection-funds-from-us-donors/
"Brainwashed!" - decries a post filled with dogwhistle terms and media-generated cliches bearing no relation to reality.
"Interference!" - another shakes his fist at the Democrats, celebrating an election win by a politician who just had the Republicans interfere in his fate as directly as they possibly could.
"Israeli voters!" - says the title of another thread about how awful Obama and his Marxist Latinos are.
http://cdn.meme.li/i/ly4r8.jpg
Jimbuna
03-19-15, 07:02 AM
Subscribed.
Tchocky
03-19-15, 07:06 AM
Hard to tell if Webster is a parody account
HunterICX
03-19-15, 07:17 AM
Side note. I plan to visit Israel this summer, can not wait. Anyone on here live there? Visited before?
Haven't visited but you definitely should visit the wailing wall and do what you do best.
I'll guarantee the result will be exactly the same!
And you'll do subsim a favour by saving bandwidth.
Haven't visited but you definitely should visit the wailing wall and do what you do best.
I'll guarantee the result will be exactly the same!
And you'll do subsim a favour by saving bandwith.
http://server2.trutube.tv/files/photos/1362181286eb3305_l.png
Haven't visited but you definitely should visit the wailing wall and do what you do best.
I'll guarantee the result will be exactly the same!
:haha::haha:
have a brain and did not fall for the outside interference pouring in against Netanyahu, especially from the Obama Admin. Hopefully America will follow suit next year and elected a great leader who will stand up to our common enemies.
Nobody gives damn here about outside interference very much besides possibly the ones that don't vote for Bibi anyway or need something to talk about on internet forums.
It is all overrated lol
If you come to Israel have fun and enjoy here.
I hope he holds to his promise to keep building illegal settlements,
Yes same old mantra....there is this thread about right wingers , republicans and so on...being not so bright... .
It is time to open thread about would be intellectuals who defend rights of oppressed while talking nonsense , yes you are enlighten....can't go wrong with that.
Actually... at best you had been educated to parrot the stuff you don't really understand.
...and no I don't vote Bibi , hoped he would be gone by this election.
AngusJS
03-19-15, 01:03 PM
Yes same old mantra....there is this thread about right wingers , republicans and so on...being not so bright... .
It is time to open thread about would be intellectuals who defend rights of oppressed while talking nonsense , yes you are enlighten....can't go wrong with that.
Actually... at best you had been educated to parrot the stuff you don't really understand.
...and no I don't vote Bibi , hoped he would be gone by this election.And yet as usual, you don't say why my post is wrong. Let me guess, the settlements can't be illegal because the government says they aren't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s62PeTxELL4
Who's saying that JUST your oppinion is better than an other persons oppinion ??
Sorry, but seeing a subsim member getting mocked just because he has..well a different oppinion..makes me sad.
Markus
HunterICX
03-19-15, 01:52 PM
Who's saying that JUST your oppinion is better than an other persons oppinion ??
Sorry, but seeing a subsim member getting mocked just because he has..well a different oppinion..makes me sad.
Markus
Whose opinion is that everyone that had a different opinion and didn't vote for what in his opinion is the only one you should vote for is a brainless person.
:hmm2:
Interesting
corporalspiffy
03-19-15, 02:26 PM
well since there are more illegal immigrants voting in elections now then American citizens, and since half of those are mindless college kids who have been brainwashed and propagandized by uber liberal America hating socialist academics to believe our country is evil and the cause of all problems in the world, plus less then half the conservatives in this country bother to even vote anymore, what do you think is going to happen?
Adolf Hitler could get elected if he registered as a democrat and the press would make him sound like the answers to every ones problems.
hell the republican party is ruled and being led by liberal socialist rhino republicans that are in lock step with socialist democrats, any conservative republicans are chastised and kept out of any positions of power or decision making. step one is getting rid of the rhino republican hypocrite John Boehner who is really just a socialist democrat who gave Obama everything he ever asked for as long as John Boehner could be the one to take credit for it.
make no mistake about it, until the non-republican republicans can be run out of office, which is at least roughly 60% of the republican party, there will never be a conservative agenda being put forth to bring this country back from its socialist Marxist path it is on.
good rational sensible post. obama is an agent of destruction and in no way has anyone's best interest in mind except his own and that is doubtful. parasites eventually kill the host they live off.
the secular israeli experiment is a failure. a country that justifies its existence and brutality on a biblical mandate and then does nothing to uphold biblical morality is a straw house in a hurricane.
israel is being overrun by sudanese illegal migrants who have no feeling for civilized order, they piss in the streets and terrorize people with their violent impulsiveness.
http://acsmediakit.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/whac-a-mole-o.gif
Whose opinion is that everyone that had a different opinion and didn't vote for what in his opinion is the only one you should vote for is a brainless person.
:hmm2:
Interesting
That I "fight" for his right to have an opinion is not the same as I agree with him..far from
Best solution..ignore the thread and after few days it will be on page two. Or debate with the person in a good manner.
Markus
Cybermat47
03-19-15, 03:35 PM
Gotta love the way Bubblehead just made this thread and hasn't done anything in it since.
It's a drive-by shooting of my brain cells.
HunterICX
03-19-15, 04:33 PM
Or debate with the person in a good manner.
IF he only actually debated something :roll:
All he does is simple drive by mud throwing to rattle the cage.
IF he only actually debated something :roll:
All he does is simple drive by mud throwing to rattle the cage.
In that you are right..haven't it not been for these mocking post..I had totally ignored this thread.
Markus
Tchocky
03-19-15, 04:48 PM
Funny part is the majority of Israeli voters did nothing like what Bubblehead is claiming in the thread title.
Likud ended up with 23%
VipertheSniper
03-19-15, 05:01 PM
well since there are more illegal immigrants voting in elections now then American citizens, and since half of those are mindless college kids who have been brainwashed and propagandized by uber liberal America hating socialist academics to believe our country is evil and the cause of all problems in the world, plus less then half the conservatives in this country bother to even vote anymore, what do you think is going to happen?
Adolf Hitler could get elected if he registered as a democrat and the press would make him sound like the answers to every ones problems.
hell the republican party is ruled and being led by liberal socialist rhino republicans that are in lock step with socialist democrats, any conservative republicans are chastised and kept out of any positions of power or decision making. step one is getting rid of the rhino republican hypocrite John Boehner who is really just a socialist democrat who gave Obama everything he ever asked for as long as John Boehner could be the one to take credit for it.
make no mistake about it, until the non-republican republicans can be run out of office, which is at least roughly 60% of the republican party, there will never be a conservative agenda being put forth to bring this country back from its socialist Marxist path it is on.
good rational sensible post. obama is an agent of destruction and in no way has anyone's best interest in mind except his own and that is doubtful. parasites eventually kill the host they live off.
the secular israeli experiment is a failure. a country that justifies its existence and brutality on a biblical mandate and then does nothing to uphold biblical morality is a straw house in a hurricane.
israel is being overrun by sudanese illegal migrants who have no feeling for civilized order, they piss in the streets and terrorize people with their violent impulsiveness.
WHAT THE HELL?
Can we rename this thread to "the loony bin" or "when I'm joking on the internet, I don't use smilies"
I mean is anything of that to be taken seriously?
Is there a new definition of "majority"? According to the results I've seen, Likud only garnered 23.4% of the total vote, less than a quarter of the total votes cast. This means 76.6% percent of the votes went against Likud, hardly a rousing victory by any measure...
<O>
Is there a new definition of "majority"? According to the results I've seen, Likud only garnered 23.4% of the total vote, less than a quarter of the total votes cast. This means 76.6% percent of the votes went against Likud, hardly a rousing victory by any measure...
<O>
It's called a "plurality", not a majority.
To be fair, in systems like Israel's, real power rests with coalitions rather than individual parties, and if you look at actual results, I certainly do not see any sea change or mandate for a shift in values. Social moderate and economic liberal parties are the ones actually in majority. But many of them are willing to work with Likud on foreign policy, for instance. And despite giving Likud a fairly strong mandate to build a coalition, it's pretty clear to me that the majority of Israeli voters are actually leaning very noticeably the other way.
By my count, the actual result of the election says that the Israeli right had a net loss of 4 seats in this election. No other party on the right besides Likud actually gained any seats. All other gains in this election were by centre or left-wing parties, all of which would be considered extremely liberal by American standards.
Perhaps the real story of this election isn't about Netanyahu, but about how the hard left turn on the economy - that many expected, and not unlike one that the recent elections in Greece saw - didn't actually happen. That's the real story - and for many, a surprise, because it would've seemed obvious that the huge increases in the cost of living and deterioration in the job market and public services had to be foremost on the voters' minds. For one reason or another, I suppose that didn't turn the tide anyway. Otherwise, those on the American right are typically disappointed when they hold up Israel as some sort of model society of their dreams (conveniently promoted to them as such by conservative ideologues), only to discover that as politics, economics and public services go, it's about as secular, liberal, and pluralistic as states get. And I for one hope that it stays that way.
It's called a "plurality", not a majority.
To be fair, in systems like Israel's, real power rests with coalitions rather than individual parties, and if you look at actual results, I certainly do not see any sea change or mandate for a shift in values. Social moderate and economic liberal parties are the ones actually in majority. But many of them are willing to work with Likud on foreign policy, for instance.
Perhaps the real story of this election isn't about Netanyahu, but about how the hard left turn on the economy - that many expected, and not unlike one that the recent elections in Greece saw - didn't actually happen. That's the real story - and for many, a surprise, because it would've seemed obvious that the huge increases in the cost of living and deterioration in the job market and public services had to be foremost on the voters' minds. For one reason or another, I suppose that didn't turn the tide anyway. Otherwise, those on the American right are typically disappointed when they hold up Israel as some sort of model society of their dreams (conveniently promoted to them as such by conservative ideologues), only to discover that as politics, economics and public services go, it's about as secular, liberal, and pluralistic as states get. And I for one hope that it stays that way.
I concur with the above. Bibi (or BeBe, I never know which one is the official spelling) really has no individual hold on power. He and his party's policies, beliefs, and standards are not, and never really have been, wholeheartedly embraced, by the Israeli population, in general. Now he is going to have to scrape and wheel and deal to form any semblance of a stable government...
My bicker over the term "majority" is how it is used as a sort of public relations gimmick to give the impression there is very much more public support for a candidate, party, or policies than actually exists. I find much the same holds for the term "mandate". The last time it was used in US presidential was in 2004 when the GOP claimed the election results confirmed a "mandate" from the US voters for GOP policies, in spite of the fact GW Bush only garnered 50.7% of the total vote. Again, hardly a rousing victory, but rather better the Bush's 47.9% in the 2000 election. It seems "majority" and "mandate" are somewhat, shall we say, "fungible"?...
<O>
Bubblehead1980
03-19-15, 08:56 PM
Gotta love the way Bubblehead just made this thread and hasn't done anything in it since.
It's a drive-by shooting of my brain cells.
sorry, I have not had a chance to respond. There are many posts I would like to respond to and fully intend to do so and get busy with life, it happens.I'll ry a few while I have time.
Tchocky
03-19-15, 09:05 PM
well since there are more illegal immigrants voting in elections now then American citizens
[citation needed]
[citation needed]
http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/uploads/uncat/geronimo-illegal-aliens.jpg
Bubblehead1980
03-19-15, 09:21 PM
Outside influence?
Umm... did Obama speak before the Knesset? No, I think it was the other way around. But I guess that kind of outside influence is A-OK.
And yes, what a great man Netanyahu is. I mean, he must be great to claim to speak for all Jews, right?
I hope he holds to his promise to keep building illegal settlements, and to never allow a Palestinian state. And I really hope he holds on to his Foreign Minister (who doesn't even live in Israel, but in a settlement) who said that "disloyal" Israeli citizens should be beheaded.
Truly, what a wonderful ally we have in the Israeli government.
Netanyahu was INVITED by the Speaker of the House to address Congress in order to attempt to warn everyone of the danger this naive "deal" poses to Israel, the United States, and the world as a whole since there is no reasoning with our terrible President.
Despite the claims, Boehner was well within his rights to do so, the President is not king, has no special power to invite and not invite leaders of other countries.Congress is a separate branch and while "protocol" usually dictates otherwise, this was a special circumstance and highly justified, it was a great speech that caught a lot of attention and showed the bums in the white house most people get it and are not on board with their dangerous policy of appeasement.
Obama's influence was sending the same shysters that helped get him elected to Israel to try and build a machine to defeat Netanyahu because he has made Obama appear what he is when it comes to this issue and clearly shown his dislike for Israel and Netanyahu.Along with that operation is money brought in and the "busing" tactics(I will never forget news showing busloads of ignorant people who had no business voting really during the 2008 election) Netanyahu mentioned the day of the election.They tried to play the race card, but it was a simple fact that outside organizations were trying to manipulate the outcome and a key element in the effort was obama via his cronies.Obama is smart in the sense he knows to keep enough distance he can't be directly linked, plausible deniability is a key thing for him.
Bottom link, was invited to speak and make a legitimate plea to stop a dangerous deal, while other was dirty political effort to interfere in a country's election.Really, apples and oranges when you compare the two.
No, Netanyahu does not speak for all Jews, but he along with those who seem to face reality, understand you can not barter with these people, have his nations best interest at heart.
I hope he stands firm to not allowing a Palestinian state as well, that was always the most ridiculous idea anyways.That land is Israel, the end.Multiple wars have been fought of the years and Israel has endured, overcome, and earned the right to exist. Everyone does not get a trophy, the end.
"Illegal settlements" Again, Israel.
The beheaded comment, not sure if he was serious, bit extreme but understand his view. They are unique situation, surrounded by savages and must stay vigilant.Those who advocate appeasement and giving in to the will of those who seek to wipe them out simply because they claim they want peace, see his point.Disagree but to each their own and not something that has or will happen.
Israel is our one friend in that part of the world.They are a civilized people in a sea a barbarians that have earned the right to exist there time and time again.Our relationship is harmed at the moment due to the anti israeli mentality of the president.While not PC, his Islamic upbringing has really come out as of late.While I personally believe he is an atheist and the christian bit if for publicity, he does have more sympathies towards islam and followers than he would towards the jews.Aside from statements made his his first book, his actions have shown so.
Other Presidents have had disagreements with Israel, it is bound to happen but never seen it like this, I could be wrong have not been around as long as some of you but from what I can tell, like everything with obama, this is different and not in a good way.
Well, to be fair, it doesn't say anywhere in the constitution that the US has to be best friends with Israel, it's been an alliance of convenience, like all alliances. :hmmm:
Bubblehead1980
03-19-15, 09:28 PM
http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/uploads/uncat/geronimo-illegal-aliens.jpg
OH I hate this "Native" grievance crap that has started in social media last few years.
Sorry but they were not a sovereign nation, this land was wide open and filled with indigenous peoples who were doing rain dances.Wars were fought and they were conquered, it happens.While anyone can admit they were not treated as well as should have been, they were not exactly innocent, the name savage was earned many times over.Clash of civilizations and they lost.Sad but happens but memes like that are just ignorant and comparing two different issues.
People here not actually are ILLEGAL immigrants seeing as this is a sovereign nation with borders and laws.Way different situation when europeans arrived here and lands were settled over time.
Tchocky
03-19-15, 09:32 PM
Despite the claims, Boehner was well within his rights to do so, the President is not king, has no special power to invite and not invite leaders of other countries.
Nobody said Boehner didn't have the right to do it - the difference is that it had never been done like this before and can clearly be construed as muscling in on the executive branch agency on foreign policy. Endy story.
Congress is a separate branch and while "protocol" usually dictates otherwise, this was a special circumstance and highly justified
Why, Netanyahu has been saying Iran is a year away from a bomb for decades. Even Mossad disagree with him. The speech offered absolutely no alternative or proper criticism. It was boilerplate stuff designed for the electorate back in Israel.
it was a great speech that caught a lot of attention and showed the bums in the white house most people get it and are not on board with their dangerous policy of appeasement.What do you think the word appeasement means?
Obama's influence was sending the same shysters that helped get him elected to Israel to try and build a machine to defeat Netanyahu because he has made Obama appear what he is when it comes to this issue and clearly shown his dislike for Israel and Netanyahu. [citation needed]
Along with that operation is money brought in and the "busing" tactics(I will never forget news showing busloads of ignorant people who had no business voting really during the 2008 election) I don't often get morally indignant but what the hell do you mean by this?
Netanyahu mentioned the day of the election.They tried to play the race card, but it was a simple fact that outside organizations were trying to manipulate the outcome and a key element in the effort was obama via his cronies.[citation needed]
Also if you want to talk (http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-panned-for-concern-too-many-arabs-voting/) about politicians exploiting racial fears....
the Likud party “expressed concern over the high percentage of voting in the Arab sector” and went on to direct attention to a short video clip uploaded to Netanyahu’s personal Facebook account in which the prime minister lamented the same issue.
Obama is smart in the sense he knows to keep enough distance he can't be directly linked, plausible deniability is a key thing for him.That's handy for your argument.
"Illegal settlements" Again, Israel.
The beheaded comment, not sure if he was serious, bit extreme but understand his view. They are unique situation, surrounded by savages and must stay vigilant.Stop it with this. Stop it now.
Israel is our one friend in that part of the world.They are a civilized people in a sea a barbarians that have earned the right to exist there time and time again.Talk like a grown-up.
Other Presidents have had disagreements with Israel, it is bound to happen but never seen it like this, I could be wrong have not been around as long as some of you but from what I can tell, like everything with obama, this is different and not in a good way.I hope I'm wrong about what this sentence means.
OH I hate this "Native" grievance crap that has started in social media last few years.
Sorry but they were not a sovereign nation, this land was wide open and filled with indigenous peoples who were doing rain dances.Wars were fought and they were conquered, it happens.While anyone can admit they were not treated as well as should have been, they were not exactly innocent, the name savage was earned many times over.Clash of civilizations and they lost.Sad but happens but memes like that are just ignorant and comparing two different issues.
People here not actually are ILLEGAL immigrants seeing as this is a sovereign nation with borders and laws.Way different situation when europeans arrived here and lands were settled over time.
What defines a sovereign nation? There was the Great Sioux Nation, the Iron Confederacy, the Blackfoot Confederacy. They may not have had city halls or taxes, but they were still a nation, no less than the tribes of Africa, South America and Australia. We conquered and exploited. We land-grabbed.
The only reason that the land was wide open was because the Europeans had bigger guns and better diseases. In a clash of civilizations the Europeans took the land that the Natives lived on, the natives fought back, some agreements were made, some agreements were broken, and the side with the poorer technology and organisation lost.
So, I'm sorry but it's not crap, and I think you're pretty damn ignorant to think it so.
james_nix
03-19-15, 10:12 PM
So how do you explain all of the treaties that were signed (and broken) with the native Americans? Kind of negates your assertion.
Cybermat47
03-19-15, 11:57 PM
Sorry but they were not a sovereign nation
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois#Iroquois_Confederacy
Also, if they weren't a sovereign nation, then that's because they weren't recognized as such by the Europeans.
If aliens invaded, they might have every right to do so according to you, if they didn't recognize us as a sovereign nation.
I hope he stands firm to not allowing a Palestinian state as well, that was always the most ridiculous idea anyways.That land is Israel, the end.Multiple wars have been fought of the years and Israel has endured, overcome, and earned the right to exist. Everyone does not get a trophy, the end.
You are mixing here two different subjects while spicing it with third one...are you for one state solution then?
You do realize that part of this land you talking about is Palestinian Autonomy now and is also populated by many... many Arabs and yes I agree ...Arabs can be their own worst enemies.
Bibi is right on one thing ...if Palestinians get their statehood now west bank will turn into another hamastan.
Any way...for Palestinian having their own totaly independent state at current ME situation is out of question yet the road to it must be kept open.
Torplexed
03-20-15, 04:54 AM
The only reason that the land was wide open was because the Europeans had bigger guns and better diseases. In a clash of civilizations the Europeans took the land that the Natives lived on, the natives fought back, some agreements were made, some agreements were broken, and the side with the poorer technology and organisation lost.
In a clash of civilizations, better organization takes all, I guess. That gets the Romans off the hook for the Jewish Diaspora which is part of how we got here in the first place. History, a never-ending war game. I'll go get my dice.
http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic252228_md.jpg
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois#Iroquois_Confederacy
Also, if they weren't a sovereign nation, then that's because they weren't recognized as such by the Europeans.
If aliens invaded, they might have every right to do so according to you, if they didn't recognize us as a sovereign nation.
And before we judge of them too harshly we must remember what ruthless and utter destruction our own species has wrought, not only upon animals, such as the vanished bison and the dodo, but upon its inferior races. The Tasmanians, in spite of their human likeness, were entirely swept out of existence in a war of extermination waged by European immigrants, in the space of fifty years. Are we such apostles of mercy as to complain if the Martians warred in the same spirit?
https://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/warworlds/b1c1.html
In a clash of civilizations, better organization takes all, I guess. That gets the Romans off the hook for the Jewish Diaspora which is part of how we got here in the first place. History, a never-ending war game. I'll go get my dice.
http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic252228_md.jpg
Avalon Hill, good choice my man, now who will play as the Romans? :hmmm:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sCKhFHBsik0/UoqiRvFknrI/AAAAAAAAAFA/gkvSDuTbybk/s1600/wall.gif
corporalspiffy
03-20-15, 08:18 AM
there is a moral dimension to reality.
roman virtue was the strength of their enterprise and gave them victory over "savage" tribes.
those whose uphold ideals of justice, decency, devotion, humility and stability will always defeat those who are degenerated with senseless bloodlust and practice pagan tribal mumbo jumbo voodoo rituals.
if israel upholds biblical morality she will prosper if not she will fall.
this holds true for every nation and every individual.
if historically one people gained power over another it is because a moral judgment was made and if those people generations later fall then in that case a moral judgement was made.
LIVING THE ARMY VALUES: Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage
Tchocky
03-20-15, 08:28 AM
Biblical morality.
New or Old testament?
there is a moral dimension to reality.
roman virtue was the strength of their enterprise and gave them victory over "savage" tribes.
those whose uphold ideals of justice, decency, devotion, humility and stability will always defeat those who are degenerated with senseless bloodlust and practice pagan tribal mumbo jumbo voodoo rituals.
if israel upholds biblical morality she will prosper if not she will fall.
this holds true for every nation and every individual.
if historically one people gained power over another it is because a moral judgment was made and if those people generations later fall then in that case a moral judgement was made.
LIVING THE ARMY VALUES: Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage
You missed the part about war to end all wars , Jews converting to Christianity and then living happily in the kingdom of god.:)
corporalspiffy
03-20-15, 09:44 AM
Biblical morality.
New or Old testament?
is there a difference?
i understand that jerusalem fell to the romans because she had abandoned the law of moses
is there a difference?
i understand that jerusalem fell to the romans because she had abandoned the law of moses
....and was regained by Jews due to embracing back law of moses?
....and was regained by Jews due to embracing back law of moses?
No, due to the glorious crusaders (that the antichrist Obama recently dared to insult), and the Nazis who embraced Roman virtues so well that the Jews were
oh right:dead:
Armistead
03-20-15, 11:03 AM
OH I hate this "Native" grievance crap that has started in social media last few years.
Sorry but they were not a sovereign nation, this land was wide open and filled with indigenous peoples who were doing rain dances.Wars were fought and they were conquered, it happens.While anyone can admit they were not treated as well as should have been, they were not exactly innocent, the name savage was earned many times over.Clash of civilizations and they lost.Sad but happens but memes like that are just ignorant and comparing two different issues.
People here not actually are ILLEGAL immigrants seeing as this is a sovereign nation with borders and laws.Way different situation when europeans arrived here and lands were settled over time.
People forget the natives throughout history took and stole land from each other...
Aktungbby
03-20-15, 11:08 AM
People forget the natives throughout history took and stole land from each other...HUH!??
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/CM_Russell_When_Blackfoot_And_Sioux_Meet.jpeg
AngusJS
03-20-15, 11:43 AM
People forget the natives throughout history took and stole land from each other...Doesn't matter. They were responsible for their actions, us American immigrants responsible for ours. Saying "but they were just as bad too" (and I'd make the case that 1. there were peaceful tribes and 2. at no point in their wars did one tribe completely wipe out another and destroy their culture entirely, like the white men did) has no bearing on the morality of our actions.
Originally Posted by corporalspiffy
if historically one people gained power over another it is because a moral judgment was made and if those people generations later fall then in that case a moral judgement was made.So I guess when Poland was dismembered by Prussia, Austria and Russia in the 18th century that was a moral judgment against the Poles?
Say Hitler never invaded the Soviet Union, and the Third Reich actually was on course to last 1000 years - does that mean the Nazis were morally superior to the Poles/French/Dutch/Luxembourgians/Norwegians/Danes/Belgians/Yugoslavs/Greeks?
When the Soviet Union dominated Eastern Europe after the war for generations, were they morally superior? When they crushed the Prague Spring, should the Czechoslovakians have just said "oh well, should have seen it coming, they're morally superior to us after all"?
Rockstar
03-20-15, 12:43 PM
Doesn't matter. They were responsible for their actions, us American immigrants responsible for ours. Saying "but they were just as bad too" (and I'd make the case that 1. there were peaceful tribes and 2. at no point in their wars did one tribe completely wipe out another and destroy their culture entirely, like the white men did) has no bearing on the morality of our actions.
Actually the colonies had a pretty good relationship with most tribes. That is until many of them (not all) joined forces with and worked for the Brits and French throughout the new nations many battles with them. The European enemies were defeated and stabbed their comrades in arms in the back, leaving them on the continent to fend for themselves. Those tribes were looked upon with distrust and retaliation ensued in other-words they choose the wrong side payed the price for it. Whats unfortunate all tribes became suspect, even the ones who fought on the side of the colonies. Its all a mess, thanks Obama.
http://img.pandawhale.com/post-58317-thanks-Obama-cookie-milk-gif-I-79yU.gif
corporalspiffy
03-20-15, 03:38 PM
1. there were peaceful tribes and 2. at no point in their wars did one tribe completely wipe out another and destroy their culture entirely, like the white men did) has no bearing on the morality of our actions.
i dont get why people have this romanticized notion about the american native at once acknowledging that they brutally massacred victims on alters in central america and on the other hand demonizing "the white man" (men in particular) as the scourge of the world even though the whole world has accepted european innovation and benefited from it. (sanitation, medicine, nutrition etc)
i guess it's the power of the media with movies like "Dances with Wolves" and "Django" etc etc etc ...
the american natives are not victims of "white encroachment". history unfolds and we as individuals are just small players on its stage. whatever events we find ourselves caught up in they are not of our choosing.
whatever events we find ourselves caught up in they are not of our choosing.
I'm fairly sure that Colombus chose to sail, I'm fairly sure the people who sailed on the Mayflower chose to sail, and the early Americans chose to expand.
There are choices.
u crank
03-20-15, 04:14 PM
i dont get why people have this romanticized notion about the american native at once acknowledging that they brutally massacred victims on alters in central america and on the other hand demonizing "the white man" (men in particular) as the scourge of the world even though the whole world has accepted european innovation and benefited from it. (sanitation, medicine, nutrition etc)
The Europeans who came to the Americas had no problem in torturing heretics to get them to admit they were and then burning them at the stake for it. They had no qualms about owning other human beings and even thought it was God's will and plan. Religious groups were persecuted and exterminated by other religious groups. European countries and Kings waged war with each other on a regular basis and exported those wars around the world. I'm not the least bit surprised that the natives of the Americas were treated the way they were.
i guess it's the power of the media with movies like "Dances with Wolves" and "Django" etc etc etc ...
History books tell a different story as to the behavior of both the Natives and those who came to the Americas. Don't listen to Hollywood, try reading some.
the american natives are not victims of "white encroachment"
That's a nice way of putting it. So what about the Mexicans who come into America? Just history unfolding?
corporalspiffy
03-20-15, 04:27 PM
That's a nice way of putting it. So what about the Mexicans who come into America? Just history unfolding?
why are they coming to america? to improve their standard of living but they will find it to be temporary.
yes it's the ebb and tide of history and there is a moral dimension to it.
america has fallen and is collapsing but civilization will rise again.
it isnt humanity that holds itself up.
Tchocky
03-20-15, 04:32 PM
why are they coming to america? to improve their standard of living but they will find it to be temporary.
yes it's the ebb and tide of history and there is a moral dimension to it.
america has fallen and is collapsing but civilization will rise again.
it isnt humanity that holds itself up.
It was once said of our former Dear Leader Bertie Ahern that his response to questions was like playing handball against a haystack - you hear a dull thud but the ball never quite comes back to you.
u crank
03-20-15, 04:42 PM
why are they coming to america? to improve their standard of living but they will find it to be temporary.
Many Europeans came to the Americas 'to improve their standard of living'. Or was there another reason?
yes it's the ebb and tide of history and there is a moral dimension to it.
america has fallen and is collapsing but civilization will rise again.
it isnt humanity that holds itself up.
I'm afraid to ask but...care to explain that.
It was once said of our former Dear Leader Bertie Ahern that his repsonse to questions was like playing handball against a haystack - you hear a dull thud but the ball never quite comes back to you.
I think in this case, the Irish have nailed it on the head again.
So, I shall just leave with this:
http://media.boreme.com/post_media/2010/where-white-man-went-wrong.jpg
corporalspiffy
03-20-15, 04:56 PM
im tired of people blaming the white man for all the world's problems. it's patently simplistic and discriminatory. even a white infant boy isnt innocent by this logic.
no racism. no cheating. no lying.
this racist anti-white attitude is absurd. the mistake europeans made was not enforcing divine law strictly enough in their colonies.
the british empire should have upheld divine law with an iron fist then she would still rule the waves. this is the moral dimension.
I just feel compelled to point out that this thread has somehow managed to attain an impressive level of crazy without a single squirrel picture. Good work Subsim. I thought it was just the squirrels...
I also note that, save for the original post, MH, and a brief exchange between me and Vienna, nothing in this thread has revealed any interest, let alone understanding, of anything about Israeli voters or politics - but lots of interest in people's pet peeves and weird obsessions (or should I say Obamasessions?)
Tchocky
03-20-15, 05:07 PM
I miss Tak and his squirrel-based warning policy.
AngusJS
03-20-15, 05:07 PM
i dont get why people have this romanticized notion about the american native at once acknowledging that they brutally massacred victims on alters in central america and on the other hand demonizing "the white man" (men in particular) as the scourge of the world even though the whole world has accepted european innovation and benefited from it. (sanitation, medicine, nutrition etc)
i guess it's the power of the media with movies like "Dances with Wolves" and "Django" etc etc etc ...
the american natives are not victims of "white encroachment". history unfolds and we as individuals are just small players on its stage. whatever events we find ourselves caught up in they are not of our choosing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices#cite_note-3
There were many books in existence at the time of the Spanish conquest of Yucatán (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_conquest_of_Yucat%C3%A1n) in the 16th century, however most were destroyed by the Conquistadors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador) and catholic priests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priests). In particular, many in Yucatán (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucat%C3%A1n) were ordered destroyed by Bishop Diego de Landa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_de_Landa) in July of 1562. De Landa wrote: "We found a large number of books in these characters and, as they contained nothing in which were not to be seen as superstition and lies of the devil, we burned them all, which they (the Maya) regretted to an amazing degree, and which caused them much affliction."Our knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, only four have survived to modern times (as though all that posterity knew of ourselves were to be based upon three prayer books and Pilgrim's Progress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrim%27s_Progress)). —Michael D. CoeOnly 4 Mayan codices survive.
When the artifacts and culture which arise from our shared human experience are destroyed, the world becomes a little poorer, a little duller, a little uglier. The burning of those priceless and irreplaceable Mayan works of art and literature is just as terrible as the mindless destruction wreaked by the human filth of the Taliban and ISIS, 5 centuries later. It's not OK to just write it off as collateral damage of the supposed tides of history.
Nothing can be done about the horrors of the past. But that doesn't mean that we just sweep it under the rug and pretend that it's no big deal. That attitude can lead to us repeat history, rather than heed its lessons.
u crank
03-20-15, 05:43 PM
the mistake europeans made was not enforcing divine law strictly enough in their colonies.
the british empire should have upheld divine law with an iron fist then she would still rule the waves. this is the moral dimension.
Seems to me there are people who are still trying to do this. I believe your country [and mine] are practically at war with them.
ALLAHU ACKBAR!!
Allah ahdak:haha:
Schroeder
03-20-15, 06:48 PM
The ignore list got a little longer. Very good invention.:yeah:
I toke a look at the result and maybe Bibi isn't popular if you look to the percentage 23.4 Meaning about 77 % didn't voted on Bibi.
I could see that his party got additional 12 seats and that must be a win.
Markus
Allah ahdak:haha:
Allan Snackbar
Torplexed
03-20-15, 07:50 PM
I also note that, save for the original post, MH, and a brief exchange between me and Vienna, nothing in this thread has revealed any interest, let alone understanding, of anything about Israeli voters or politics - but lots of interest in people's pet peeves and weird obsessions (or should I say Obamasessions?)
Indeed, but just let me say that the brief, deranged segues into US-Native American history have been an absolute delight. :D
http://pyxis.homestead.com/Dances-with-She-wolves.jpg
roman virtue was the strength of their enterprise and gave them victory over "savage" tribes.
Bull.
Patience, Dowly!
After all, it isn't humanity that holds that bs up:D
Betonov
03-21-15, 01:52 AM
Patience, Dowly!
After all, it isn't humanity that holds that bs up:D
Quite opposite,
I'ts bs that holds humanity up. If there would be a lack of of fresh manure, food supply would be halved and even the western world would suffer famines until the population would be reduced enough to an equilibrium. Until that would happpen, there would be riots and wars and great suffering.
HunterICX
03-21-15, 04:20 AM
I just feel compelled to point out that this thread has somehow managed to attain an impressive level of crazy without a single squirrel picture. Good work Subsim. I thought it was just the squirrels...
I'm resisting the urge to nominate this thread for thread of the year 2015 :D
This is clearly a candidate that'll hardly be surpassed in it's level of crazy.
I'm resisting the urge to nominate this thread for thread of the year 2015 :D
This is clearly a candidate that'll hardly be surpassed in it's level of crazy.
It's certainly brought all the...special...people out of the woodwork... :haha:
It's certainly brought all the...special...people out of the woodwork... :haha:
Well… you are here all the time….no?
Back to topic… as it seems Obama care doesn,'t seem to work after all.
Jimbuna
03-21-15, 07:57 AM
Actually, I doubt anyone is here as long and as often as I am.
corporalspiffy
03-21-15, 08:21 AM
It's certainly brought all the...special...people out of the woodwork... :haha:
and to whom, may i ask, specifically, are you referring?
:O:
Well… you are here all the time….no?
Back to topic… as it seems Obama care doesn,'t seem to work after all.
:haha: This is true, and there's nowt more special than I! :O:
There was a topic? :hmmm:
Onkel Neal
03-21-15, 09:01 AM
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/persuasion.jpg
u crank
03-21-15, 09:05 AM
:haha: This is true, and there's nowt more special than I! :O:
He is special. Look how many birthdays he had in one week.:O:
He is special. Look how many birthdays he had in one week.:O:
Exactly, only the Queen gets that kind of treatment, which means I'm a Queen!
https://northamerica.uq.edu.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Dame-Edna.jpg
Oh, my possums! :yeah:
Did we just hear a closet open?... :haha:
<O>
Did we just hear a closet open?... :haha:
<O>
It's where all my best dresses are kept! :O:
https://worldlyscandifriend.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/cissie-and-ada1.jpg
Mostly when a closet is open lots of skeleton starts to fall out of it.
(when using political terms)
Markus
Now to some more serious stuff.
Among my friends I have people from Israel or people that support Israel(I do it my self, but only support to have a country)and people that support Palestine.
When I ask people from Israel or people that support Israel to show me prof about Israel, i get lots of links to different page that of course is somehow or very pro-Israel.
When I ask my friends that is pro-Palestine about the same I get links to pages that is somehow or very pro-Palestine.
Have read lots of page on both side and I'm still confused..what is correct and what's not.
I want the best for both side-For the civilians.
(Sorry for this little detour)
Markus
Rockstar
03-21-15, 05:33 PM
http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/jky242/ad29707bb1d04da5ed6be4051ef35745.jpg
http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/jky242/ad29707bb1d04da5ed6be4051ef35745.jpg
It's not the history AFTER 1948 it's the history before or should I say between year 66 and 1948
Markus
Now to some more serious stuff.
Among my friends I have people from Israel or people that support Israel(I do it my self, but only support to have a country)and people that support Palestine.
When I ask people from Israel or people that support Israel to show me prof about Israel, i get lots of links to different page that of course is somehow or very pro-Israel.
When I ask my friends that is pro-Palestine about the same I get links to pages that is somehow or very pro-Palestine.
Have read lots of page on both side and I'm still confused..what is correct and what's not.
I want the best for both side-For the civilians.
(Sorry for this little detour)
Markus
So what is the question??
What proof you want… about what?
So what is the question??
What proof you want… about what?
Is the border that surround Israel correct ?
If Palestine shall have their own country where should the border be ?
Did the Palestine have they own country before 1948 ?
I know that England called the people that lived in the area where Israel and Palestine is today for Palestine people.
Will provide you with more question as they come by or as I remember them.
Markus
Rockstar
03-22-15, 01:41 PM
It's not the history AFTER 1948 it's the history before or should I say between year 66 and 1948
Markus
Why start at year 66?
Always start in '66
http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article399292.ece/alternates/s615/air-france-wreckage-pic-getty-image-3-218671548.jpg
And stop...apparently. :/\\!!
Bubblehead1980
03-22-15, 05:52 PM
This threat went to crazy town fast.First went into illegal immigration then into the indian faux grievance thread, to someone trying to nitpick over the use of majority and somewhat back to the issue.
Bottom line is Netanyahu won and enough voters in Israel still have a brain to keep him around, despite the efforts of our naive president and his cronies trying to influence things.Israel should breath easier because they have someone who can clearly see the threat and will not sacrifice his nation's safety to appease anyone.
The US has had great leaders like that in the past, we are due for one so hopefully in the near future will have one. Sorry to say but we are due for another major war and do not see any real way to avoid one with Iran unless regime change happens without it. As long as the savages remain in charge there with enough support of their people, and we have an empty but anti israeli suit(or pantsuit if the predictions of 2016 come true) it's a repeat of the 30's in the sense appeasement will not work, and will eventually have to fight them anyone, , except we are 70 years out and many of us head the lessons of history. so are doing our best to avoid such a disaster because this time, too many morons have nukes.
We the people outside Israel think that the voters in Israel only have one thing in their mind-Iran
Nothing could be more wrong. The two main issue that occupied their mind was domestic problems such as the high prices
Iran came first longer down on the list
Said by Danish TV some days before the election
About Iran. How many years haven't the leader of Israel used Iran and the bomb as some kind of "cry wolf" ?
Markus
http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/308394/batman.jpg?w=370
HunterICX
03-23-15, 05:45 AM
First, my apologies to Mr.Bubblehead here for having stepped out of the boundaries and simply insulted.
So let me try again.
This threat went to crazy town fast.First went into illegal immigration then into the indian faux grievance thread, to someone trying to nitpick over the use of majority and somewhat back to the issue.
Bottom line is Netanyahu won and enough voters in Israel still have a brain to keep him around, despite the efforts of our naive president and his cronies trying to influence things.Israel should breath easier because they have someone who can clearly see the threat and will not sacrifice his nation's safety to appease anyone.
The US has had great leaders like that in the past, we are due for one so hopefully in the near future will have one. Sorry to say but we are due for another major war and do not see any real way to avoid one with Iran unless regime change happens without it. As long as the savages remain in charge there with enough support of their people, and we have an empty but anti israeli suit(or pantsuit if the predictions of 2016 come true) it's a repeat of the 30's in the sense appeasement will not work, and will eventually have to fight them anyone, , except we are 70 years out and many of us head the lessons of history. so are doing our best to avoid such a disaster because this time, too many morons have nukes.
How very illogical and contradicting,
Saying we're due for another major war (with Iran or war in general) is considering anything but safety, allowing your people to breath easily, trying your best to avoid such a disaster and having learned anything from history.
It's seeying a threat where there isn't any as Iran is mostly busy trying to supress it's own internal problems whilst paying little attention to beyond their borders. You may not like the regime like many in the middle-east but these regimes mostly mind their own business and not looking outside to stir up problems that'll backfire upon them.
Also would like to note, you guy haven't been out for 70 years...you barely lifted most of your boots out the middle east and you call out that it's due for another major war?
First, my apologies to Mr.Bubblehead here for having stepped out of the boundaries and simply insulted.
So let me try again.
How very illogical and contradicting,
Saying we're due for another major war (with Iran or war in general) is considering anything but safety, allowing your people to breath easily, trying your best to avoid such a disaster and having learned anything from history.
It's seeying a threat where there isn't any as Iran is mostly busy trying to supress it's own internal problems whilst paying little attention to beyond their borders. You may not like the regime like many in the middle-east but these regimes mostly mind their own business and not looking outside to stir up problems that'll backfire upon them.
Also would like to note, you guy haven't been out for 70 years...you barely lifted most of your boots out the middle east and you call out that it's due for another major war?
Iran is not paying mutch attention outside its borders… that is nonsense.
Internal problems Iran may have now should be credited in great part to sanctions for which Bibi had some credit.
…also I agree that iran is not the most importent issue for general public in israel yet it does not mean this issue should not be taken seriously
Also would like to note, you guy haven't been out for 70 years...you barely lifted most of your boots out the middle east and you call out that it's due for another major war?
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/505/362/3f4.gif
MH has a point though, Iran is looking outside its borders a fair bit, into Iraq and Syria mainly because of the power vacuum being created there.
Now, I wonder who exactly created this power vacuum? :hmmm:
http://cdn.historycommons.org/images/events/b027_bush_mission_accomplished_2050081722-7750.jpg
Makes you wonder what kind of terrible mess would be created if politicians who believe like Bubbles got their war with Iran. Would probably wind up creating that Caliphate that Daesh so desperately want. :haha:
HunterICX
03-23-15, 06:53 AM
Iran is not paying mutch attention outside its borders… that is nonsense.
Actually ment beyond what's around their borders. It's not meddling in affairs of western countries as the west does in the Middle Eastern countries.
Internal problems Iran may have now should be credited in great part to sanctions for which Bibi had some credit. .
I think it's more to due that the people and the regime have different ideas how one should live rather then the conditions the country is in. Iran (Persia) before the revolution was quite a modern society, the same can't be said about the policies of the ruling clerics you have now.
…also I agree that iran is not the most importent issue for general public in israel yet it does not mean this issue should not be taken seriously
It should be taken seriously, not denying that. Just not by going beyond the right and obligation to defend yourself by striking first.
HunterICX
03-23-15, 06:57 AM
MH has a point though, Iran is looking outside its borders a fair bit, into Iraq and Syria mainly because of the power vacuum being created there.
Yeh, I was actually meaning something else but my english at times falls short putting it into the right words
Now, I wonder who exactly created this power vacuum? :hmmm:
http://cdn.historycommons.org/images/events/b027_bush_mission_accomplished_2050081722-7750.jpg
Makes you wonder what kind of terrible mess would be created if politicians who believe like Bubbles got their war with Iran. Would probably wind up creating that Caliphate that Daesh so desperately want. :haha:
And it's not going to allow the people of Israel allows to breath easier either and definitely not improve their safety.
Now, I wonder who exactly created this power vacuum? :hmmm:
http://cdn.historycommons.org/images/events/b027_bush_mission_accomplished_2050081722-7750.jpg
Makes you wonder what kind of terrible mess would be created if politicians who believe like Bubbles got their war with Iran. Would probably wind up creating that Caliphate that Daesh so desperately want. :haha:
Yes , Bush was definitely naïve selling democracy to bunch of nuts... putting aside his supposed motivations Iraq had an opportunity here after getting rid of of now so missed and loved Sadam Hussein.
Iran has great part in all the the mess as well...and now is pretending to be the reasonable side.
Bush made a big gambling mistake yet regarding the blaming war it is somewhat similar to Obamophobia and the usual political manipulation for masses from different perspective.
Besides that i always say...give some credit to the local people as well . People in the west have too high regard of themselves thinking they are guilty of everything.
It is almost? racist lol
I think it's more to due that the people and the regime have different ideas how one should live rather then the conditions the country is in. Iran (Persia) before the revolution was quite a modern society, the same can't be said about the policies of the ruling clerics you have now.
Yet the Islamic revolution happened no?
You also discard the sanctions right?
HunterICX
03-23-15, 11:56 AM
Yet the Islamic revolution happened no?
You also discard the sanctions right?
Yes it did.
No, I didn't discard the sanctions (I said that I think doesn't mean though that I'm right about it, it where just my personal thoughts)
Yes , Bush was definitely naïve selling democracy to bunch of nuts... putting aside his supposed motivations Iraq had an opportunity here after getting rid of of now so missed and loved Sadam Hussein.
Iran has great part in all the the mess as well...and now is pretending to be the reasonable side.
Bush made a big gambling mistake yet regarding the blaming war it is somewhat similar to Obamophobia and the usual political manipulation for masses from different perspective.
Besides that i always say...give some credit to the local people as well . People in the west have too high regard of themselves thinking they are guilty of everything.
It is almost? racist lol
I do ponder if Saddam was still in power whether the Arab Spring would have resulted in either an Iraqi civil war or his removal. Failing that, I ponder how Iraq would have reacted with Syria in the state that it's in. Would he have moved into Syria in an attempt to capitalise on the situation in the way that Iran is now.
I don't so much blame Bush for all of the aftermath of the war, but I do blame him for putting it in motion, and creating the power vacuum in Iraq by removing Saddam. The west and Saddam did not see eye to eye, this much is obvious (despite arming him against Iran) but there is a saying about the lesser of two evils.
And all this talk of 'regime change' that Bubbles and the politicians who speak his language are going on about just sounds ominously similar to the sort of language that we heard from Colin Powell and Dick Cheney in the build up to 2003. :hmmm:
The interesting part of the whole "regime change" subject vis-à-vis GW Bush is how, during his initial campaign for President in 2000, he was most fervent and adamant in his assertion the US should not be involved in "nation building" and, by electing him to the Presidency, he would halt the practice. Here is a compilation of GW Bush the candidate in 2000 on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9SOVzMV2bc
and the nutshell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGDwvAbx_fg
Too bad Bush, the candidate, never got to be Bush, the President...
...and we still live with the consequences, still escalating, of his failed "policies"...
<O>
I certainly doubt anyone in Israel misses Saddam - for the part of my family that lives there, one of their scariest memories had always been the Scud strikes during the Gulf War, partly because one hit close to home, partly because at the time they were widely rumoured to be loaded with chemical or biological weapons.
That said, I think as awful as they were, the Baathist (and other secular conservative) regimes were perhaps not the greatest target for the West in the Middle East, and I think the support for their destruction was short-sighted and certainly hasn't done Israel a lot of favours. It's let a lot of devils out of the box, and Iran has reaped the most benefits.
And, as I keep saying, I don't believe there is a military solution to the Iran problem. That's a stupid idea. Nor do I believe Iran is so stupid as to be looking for a military solution to Israel. Iran's biggest priority is expanding their sphere of influence, and having as much access to the world market as they can while they're at it. Does that mean they need to be appeased? Of course not. But I think the question here is far from as simple as "to Israel or not to Israel". And I think the far more pressing question for the West in particular is what to do about the power vacuum left in the wake of the Arab Spring, which is gradually getting filled up by all the wrong people. Aiming to create another power vacuum in Iran would neither be practical nor solve it (and arguably would make things a lot worse).
As for the assessment of the results of the Iraq war for the Americans, I'd suggest considering that the only winners of that conflict were Iran, and to a lesser extent Russia and China. Great cause for tens of thousands of lost American lives, no doubt.
Iran doesn't need to consider a military solution for Israel, because Israels current course is self-destructive. Netanyahus re-election was a gift to Hamas and there'll certainly be more Israeli action in the Gaza Strip and West Bank this year, if we make it to summer without it then it will be surprising.
Rockstar
03-23-15, 02:52 PM
Iran doesn't need to consider a military solution for Israel, because Israels current course is self-destructive. Netanyahus re-election was a gift to Hamas and there'll certainly be more Israeli action in the Gaza Strip and West Bank this year, if we make it to summer without it then it will be surprising.
I don't get it, how do you figure the election of Likud Party and Netanyahu are a gift to Hamas?
I don't get it, how do you figure the election of Likud Party and Netanyahu are a gift to Hamas?
It's not so much the Likud party, it's the people that Netanyahu is going to have to form a coalition with, as well as his rhetoric before the election.
Then there's idiots like the Deputy speaker of the Knesset (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2715466/Israeli-official-calls-concentration-camps-Gaza-conquest-entire-Gaza-Strip-annihilation-fighting-forces-supporters.html) . :nope:
I don't get how you think Israel's current course is "self destructive". In your opinion there is a less self destructive path that they can follow?
I don't get how you think Israel's current course is "self destructive". In your opinion there is a less self destructive path that they can follow?
The thing is, it's Catch-22, I can't see a particularly less self-destructive path, but if I did I would be the first to try and point it out.
As it stands though, the likes of Hamas hold all the cards, miltiarily it may not seem like it, they're incapable of hitting anything in Israel because of Iron Dome and Israel can take out anything it wants to in return.
Perhaps fifty years ago this sort of tactic would work, but the world is a smaller place now and media circulates a lot faster and freer. So, here's how it goes:
1) Hamas shoots off a rocket at Israel, Iron Dome nails it.
2) Repeat the above for an unknown amount of time and then Israel drops a Hellfire in a house somewhere in the Gaza strip.
3) Instantly the pictures of that air strikes are beamed around the world, pictures of wounded teenagers, etc. You know the routine.
4) Meanwhile the only damage in Israel is a few tiles from shrapnel.
5) The world sees the imbalance in damage and sides with the 'poor Palestinians'
6) Israels international support is reduced.
Now, obviously that's a great simplification of the situation, however when you get pictures like this:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2014/07/israel-gaza-shoes_2402255b-460x288.jpg
And compare it to pictures like this:
http://cdn.i24news.tv/upload/cache/front_article/upload/image/mideast-israel-dailylife-be.jpg
You start getting a problem, a problem in that no matter what Israel does in regards to military action in Palestine, it will in the long term lose by isolating itself in global opinion.
It's unsustainable.
I couldn't honestly say what the answer is, since both sides consider their position to be that of strength and thus there is little need for negotiation. Netanyahu is hoping for a Republican US, and Hamas is hoping for more Israeli bombing which equals more Hamas members and international support for Palestine.
Can there be a negotiated settlement? :hmmm: Possibly, we managed what many considered to be impossible in Ireland, I recall many people saying that there would 'never be peace in Ireland', and whilst there is still occasional bouts of trouble in Ireland it's nothing compared to how it was. So, perhaps there is hope, but as it is, something is going to give at some point in the next a hundred years. Especially if more power vacuums get created in the Middle East.
Have one thing in mind. be very careful to what kind of picture you believe in
Last time there was a clash between Israel and Hamas some of our news channel and news program showed picture from Gaza
later they had to apalogize for having showed picture from the Syrian civil war.
It's hard to see the different, if you don't know it. I didn't, I truly believed that those picture was from Gaza.
Sorry for this off topic detour
Markus
It's not off-topic at all mapuc, for all I know that picture that I did a quick google image search to get could well be from the Syrian civil war. It's hard to be sure what angle people are playing when you find a news item in regards to Israel. I tend to lean towards the people and organisations that are called pro-Palestinian by Israel and pro-Israel by Palestine, if both sides hate it/them then it/they must be doing something right. :03: :haha:
Palestine is now looking likely to take its case to the UN, and it will be another arrow in its propaganda quiver. :hmmm:
Rockstar
03-23-15, 06:32 PM
"Idiot like this".
Ok, I read the article and looked at what this fellow you called an idiot was quoted as saying.
‘the conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters’.. I can agree with that. Makes me an idiot too I guess.
which includes shipping its residents across the world. Hey works for me just don't ship'em here! :)
'defining the enemy' and states: 'The strategic enemy is extremist Arab Islam in all its varieties, from Iran to Gaza, which seeks to annihilate Israel in its entirety. The immediate enemy is Hamas. (Not the tunnels, not the rockets, but Hamas.)'.
What is so idiotic about what he was quoted as saying? Granted shipping people across the globe is a little far fetched but I think most liklely simply illustrates Israels frustration.
I know lets negotiate! But then we run into this little problem of the Hamas Covenant.
this is an excerpt from Articles 13 and 11 of the Hamas Covenant.
Rejection of a Negotiated Peace
'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and
international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of
the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than
a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of
Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by
Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a
waste of time, an exercise in futility.'
On the Destruction of Israel
'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)
'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession]
consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one
can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.'
(Article 11)
'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the
Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem
wherever he may be.'
Hmmm just noticed something Hamas thinks the land belongs to Islam and not the so called Palestinians. I must admit, in that regard they are smarter than most people because it is my understanding as well that Palestine is a geographical location on a map not a nation or people.
Ok so now after reading the Covenant. Where is that the one who will do everything in power to combat intolerance? Because according to the Hamas Charter they seem pretty intolerant to me. So go get'em tiger. :D
Oh ya if what Moshe Feiglin said makes him an idiot. Whats your plan? A two state solution so Hamas can move their rockets closer?
Perhaps I just find it a little...odd or amusing, that a country populated by the descendants or survivors of a nations attempt to subdue and rid itself of a set religion, is talking about subduing or ridding itself of a set religion.
I mean who decides what a supporter of Hamas is?
I admit, if you'd have read the post, that neither side will be willing to negotiate because both sides see themselves in positions of strength.
However Israels current strategy serves only to undermine them in the global political theatre.
The thing is, it's Catch-22, I can't see a particularly less self-destructive path, but if I did I would be the first to try and point it out.
It's just the way you put it you made it sound (at least to me) like you think Israel is on that path by choice.
I understand what you are saying about damaging images but there always remains the question of what else can Israel do? If they stop fighting back it may lessen western tongue clucking but the rockets aren't going to stop nor will the suicide bombers and other attacks cease.
The reality is that Israel, unlike Northern Ireland is surrounded by enemies who will never be satisfied until they are destroyed and every last Jew either driven into the sea or enslaved. That's the bottom line here. Who the Israelis elect is immaterial as is western disapproval.
If the west really wants to help Israel we should come up with a real workable alternative to the situation rather than unrealistic schemes and Monday morning quarterbacking.
Onkel Neal
03-23-15, 07:54 PM
You start getting a problem, a problem in that no matter what Israel does in regards to military action in Palestine, it will in the long term lose by isolating itself in global opinion.
It's unsustainable.
I couldn't honestly say what the answer is, since both sides consider their position to be that of strength and thus there is little need for negotiation. Netanyahu is hoping for a Republican US, and Hamas is hoping for more Israeli bombing which equals more Hamas members and international support for Palestine.
Can there be a negotiated settlement? :hmmm: Possibly, we managed what many considered to be impossible in Ireland, I recall many people saying that there would 'never be peace in Ireland', and whilst there is still occasional bouts of trouble in Ireland it's nothing compared to how it was. So, perhaps there is hope, but as it is, something is going to give at some point in the next a hundred years. Especially if more power vacuums get created in the Middle East.
I think so too, long term, Israel is digging itself into a pretty deep hole. If the Palestinians ever get smart and start using the Ghandi/MLK/South Africa playbook, Israel will have to come to terms with a Palestinian state. Netanyahu and Likud are not only delaying the inevitable, they are making it difficult for Israel to accept it.
Rockstar
03-23-15, 08:03 PM
I just do not see that both sides are the problem. One is hell bent on the destruction of the others entire population. Plainly stating peace negotiations are a complete waste of time, futile and breeds intolerence from birth. Hamas doesnt even claim to fight for the Palestinian people, if there were such a thing, they are fighting a Jihad against a neighboring state and lands to make it Islamic.
A spokesman from the otherside as noted in the above article states they need to go after the threat, NOT the entire population. And he gets labeled the idiot?
Now, as far as who decides who Hamas supporters are. Thats should be pretty easy, they're the ones firing the rockets, digging tunnels, and shooting rifles at me. As a few here always love proclaim all the time not all muslims are extremists. It stands to reason then some in the Gaza would love to see Israel rid them of these sorry arse excuses for human beings who call themselves Hamas.
Ever thought of this
98-99 percent of the people on both side have no problems living side by
It's the other 1-2 percent on each side that through manipulation a.s.o makes them hate each other.
Markus
I understand what you are saying about damaging images but there always remains the question of what else can Israel do? If they stop fighting back it may lessen western tongue clucking but the rockets aren't going to stop nor will the suicide bombers and other attacks cease.
Well then...
The problem is that it is all about images and who ever bring the most emissive ones wins....
So what does it say about the public opinion in general and whom it does bring the motivation to keep coming with them?
Who gains most from destructive path?
What you are saying Oberon is that Bibi is no good for Israel because public opinion in the west is stupid?
It's not so much the Likud party, it's the people that Netanyahu is going to have to form a coalition with, as well as his rhetoric before the election.
Then there's idiots like the Deputy speaker of the Knesset (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2715466/Israeli-official-calls-concentration-camps-Gaza-conquest-entire-Gaza-Strip-annihilation-fighting-forces-supporters.html)
Yes he is a loon idiot , cant stand him.
I think so too, long term, Israel is digging itself into a pretty deep hole. If the Palestinians ever get smart and start using the Ghandi/MLK/South Africa playbook, Israel will have to come to terms with a Palestinian state. Netanyahu and Likud are not only delaying the inevitable, they are making it difficult for Israel to accept it.
I wish they got smart as most Isralis do.
Most Isralis don't give damn about the territory in west bank yet are concerned about security.
Well then...
The problem is that it is all about images and who ever bring the most emissive ones wins....
So what does it say about the public opinion in general and whom it does bring the motivation to keep coming with them?
Who gains most from destructive path?
What you are saying Oberon is that Bibi is no good for Israel because public opinion in the west is stupid?
In a way, yes. I mean, it's not just the rockets, there's the whole settlements issue and living conditions of those inside the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but ultimately the biggest amount of pictures comes from the occasional bombing runs and their aftermath.
Yes he is a loon idiot , cant stand him.
Sadly every nation has at least one person who doesn't understand that their comments can seriously hurt their nations global image. :/\\!!
It's just the way you put it you made it sound (at least to me) like you think Israel is on that path by choice.
I understand what you are saying about damaging images but there always remains the question of what else can Israel do? If they stop fighting back it may lessen western tongue clucking but the rockets aren't going to stop nor will the suicide bombers and other attacks cease.
The reality is that Israel, unlike Northern Ireland is surrounded by enemies who will never be satisfied until they are destroyed and every last Jew either driven into the sea or enslaved. That's the bottom line here. Who the Israelis elect is immaterial as is western disapproval.
If the west really wants to help Israel we should come up with a real workable alternative to the situation rather than unrealistic schemes and Monday morning quarterbacking.
I believe the suicide bomber rate has decreased significantly since the construction of the walls, down from 40 in 2001 to 2 in 2008, and none since I believe. Attacks against Israelis within the West Bank and Gaza strip do continue, but outside of those areas, I believe that Hamas has discontinued the attacks and is focusing on rocket attacks (which it has since found do not work thanks to Iron Dome so it might consider stopping those) and kidnappings.
I think that Israel might want to consider tailoring its response to the rocket attacks to be more proportionate to the attacks. For example, last year 8 Israelis were killed by Hamas rockets and mortars and sixty injured. In return, 1,663 Palestinians were killed and 9,713 injured. That's 207 Palestinians for each Israeli.
Now, obviously Hamas help increase the death toll, they're not stupid, they know that these numbers will be published, that International monitors will go through the hospitals and do their reports, so the more people that get killed the better it is for Hamas. As a result, when Israel launches its bombing campaign over Gaza and the West Bank, it's playing directly into Hamas's hands.
Proportionate retaliation and greater research into minimal splash damage weaponry could well be a good direction for Israel to go, they created the excellent defence system called Iron Dome, so we know that Israel can create very powerful weaponry, perhaps it might be an idea to talk to the US and help them with their ARSS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_Rotorcraft_Sniper_System) design so that rather than using missiles or bombs in retaliation they can target individual Hamas members, thus negating the advantage that Hamas has in locating their rocket launch sites next to places like hospitals and schools. A couple of sniper rounds into the rocket itself should render it unusable and then you can take out the crew at leisure.
Basically, it's a case of robbing Hamas of their propaganda munition as well as their explosive one. It's not just Israel that faces this problem, the west has had the same problem in the Middle East for over a decade. The reduction of collateral damage and casualties must continue. :yep:
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